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Papa D
07-25-2012, 21:06
I'm going to list a few dos and don'ts as see how you feel about them. I'm a HYOH type but there are a few AT practices that everyone should know.
This list is not at all comprehensive. Feel free to add on or disagree:

DOs

Pleasantly nod and briefly greet hikers you pass on the trail - - especially in remote areas
Share important trail info (i.e. - "I just saw a bear at ___." or "There is no water at ___ shelter." etc.
Yield in general to uphill hikers (unless special circumstances exist)
Step to the high side of the trail to avoid erosion
Keep generally on the quiet side while hiking and camping so others can enjoy
Practice basic LNT - - you should adhere to at least some forest preservation and care (if you want to call it something else, fine)
If you are stealth camping, no one should be able to tell you were there at all - no fire ring, no tent indention, nothing.
Offer to get water if you are going to the water source - be helpful - offer hungry thru-hikers extra food if you are a weekender with plenty
Hang your food or bear-box if you are in the shelter - - if you are tenting, do what you do.
Throw mulch and leaves in the privy
Be respectful of the trail, the forest, wildlife, and other hikers.

Don'ts

Don't try to chat-up everyone you see - a nod and a smile is usually plenty
Don't get involved in someone else's epic (unless they are in real trouble) - fine line here.
Don't build a campfire just because you are camping and don't build new fire rings (try a candle - they are nice)
Don't build fires in the wind and cut down things in the woods
Don't smoke in trail shelters - - some folks are allergic - - just politely step outside
Don't pitch your tent in a shelter (unless it's the dead of winter and no one is around) - it's rude
Don't make a bunch of noise - people are mostly out for solace and relaxation - - they probably don't like your classic rock or whatever
Don't expect people to fetch you water and give you food - - asking and offering are a big difference
If you know you are going to fart and snore all night long or make an ass of yourself, you should tent.
Don't leave your toilet paper on the ground - - it takes 2 seconds to bury it and it takes 2 months to go away if you don't.
Don't pee in the privy (unless it just comes out and you can't help it)

hikerboy57
07-25-2012, 21:12
Pretty good list.i would add respect hiker midnight.

Papa D
07-25-2012, 21:16
Pretty good list.i would add respect hiker midnight.

I agree - - I'm too nice to wake the a-holes that were chatting at midnight at 4:45 am when I get up to hike though.

Edie
07-25-2012, 21:17
Wow, should you guys put this in the bylaws or what? Makes me nervous to even hike the AT...........afraid I"l piss someone off. I'll just stay on the trail less traveled just to be safe.

hikerboy57
07-25-2012, 21:21
Wow, should you guys put this in the bylaws or what? Makes me nervous to even hike the AT...........afraid I"l piss someone off. I'll just stay on the trail less traveled just to be safe.

No bylaws justZCOMMON COURTESY.a useful concept in todays world.now read it again.it says
"be nice."

Sarcasm the elf
07-25-2012, 21:23
I would have just gone with "Be nice, be respectful of the trail and other people and don't be a d*ck" but you did a fine job of sorting out the detail. :sun

Papa D
07-25-2012, 21:26
I would have just gone with "Be nice, be respectful of the trail and other people and don't be a d*ck" but you did a fine job of sorting out the detail. :sun

thank you, but you see - you are "the choir" and not exactly the target audience who I'm preaching to - - they need it spelled out in detail.

rocketsocks
07-25-2012, 21:28
I like it D, but do clarify the whole "Epic" thing, a little unclear on that one.? just curious

Johnny Thunder
07-25-2012, 21:29
don't stress about it. if you're a good person the stuff that flies is what comes natural to you. if you're not, then no list on the internet is going to change the way you act. folks are easy in the woods and tough on the internet.

Papa D
07-25-2012, 21:37
I like it D, but do clarify the whole "Epic" thing, a little unclear on that one.? just curious

Let's see - - here is an example - - 2 hikers wake up with soaked sleeping bags because they pitched their tent in a low bare spot that became a giant puddle - - they are cold and wet and miserable (but not hypothermic or in a life or death deal) - - they are having an "epic" - you don't spend a bunch of time trying to help them because it is a learning experience for them and your day is valuable to you - - this isn't the best example, but I have been drawn in to countless such situations - - from repairing peoples stoves, backpacks, recovering lost items, etc. - - this is not to say don't be helpful and nice (offer jumper cables if you have them) - - like I said, it's a fine line. Just remember that often "no good deed goes unpunished."

rocketsocks
07-25-2012, 21:43
Let's see - - here is an example - - 2 hikers wake up with soaked sleeping bags because they pitched their tent in a low bare spot that became a giant puddle - - they are cold and wet and miserable (but not hypothermic or in a life or death deal) - - they are having an "epic" - you don't spend a bunch of time trying to help them because it is a learning experience for them and your day is valuable to you - - this isn't the best example, but I have been drawn in to countless such situations - - from repairing peoples stoves, backpacks, recovering lost items, etc. - - this is not to say don't be helpful and nice (offer jumper cables if you have them) - - like I said, it's a fine line. Just remember that often "no good deed goes unpunished."Nope, I get it now. thanks for the clarification, just never heard that term before. Yep I like it , good one, help when you can, but, hey I'm here to hike too, so see ya on the South side of Hoboken.;):)

BFI
07-25-2012, 21:45
I'll add one more, Don't wash your pots at the water source. Good list.

Driver8
07-25-2012, 22:09
Agreed, like the list. I think being helpful where you can is a good idea, so erring somewhat on the side of getting involved in s/o else's epic where it's not at great cost to you can be a fine thing. A newer hiker can learn from a more experienced one in such circumstances, at less cost to the newbie, and it builds good will in the community.

The Cleaner
07-25-2012, 22:23
Great post&list,just wish more acted this way.Some of younger crowd seem to enjoy not following any of this advice...

Drybones
07-25-2012, 22:27
A hiker lady was running low on fuel, I offered her some of mine, made the mistake of letting her pour it, she used more for a cup of coffee than I used all week....Murphy's first law...no good deed goes unpunished.

The Cleaner
07-25-2012, 22:41
A hiker lady was running low on fuel, I offered her some of mine, made the mistake of letting her pour it, she used more for a cup of coffee than I used all week....Murphy's first law...no good deed goes unpunished. Back in April I was out on a maintenance&shelter check trip.A couple of young guys came into camp about dark.I had a very small fire going,it was a little bit cold&windy.I got in my tent about 9pm and told one of them that he could use my small hand ax,which I use for trail maintenance,if he wanted to try to cut some of the dead wood laying around.I went home the next day.Looked at my ax a few days later and the cutting edge looked like a saw blade! Never again will I let anyone under 40 years old use it...

Kryptonite
07-25-2012, 23:21
It's a good list. If others want to ignore it - that's up to them. But at least they won't be ignorant of "General Hiking Courtesies."

You might want to add:

Don't talk on your phone around others if possible.
Don't try to hog the shelters for your buddies.

gram cracker
07-25-2012, 23:28
This is a real good list.

I've never heard you aren't supposed to pee in a privy.

ChinMusic
07-25-2012, 23:38
Good list.

The one that I never remember, even after all these years, is the "yield to those going uphill". It makes no sense to me at. If I'm going uphill I like waiting and taking a quick break. Anyway, it's never been an issue. I have never had a collision from forgetting the rule.

rocketsocks
07-25-2012, 23:45
Good list.

The one that I never remember, even after all these years, is the "yield to those going uphill". It makes no sense to me at. If I'm going uphill I like waiting and taking a quick break. Anyway, it's never been an issue. I have never had a collision from forgetting the rule.I always lift a bent arm when turning onto a blue trail, just so's I don't get rear ended.:D

Rasty
07-25-2012, 23:47
Great list.

rocketsocks
07-25-2012, 23:47
I always lift a bent arm when turning onto a blue trail, just so's I don't get rear ended.:DTrick question....another fire hazard.:D

rocketsocks
07-25-2012, 23:48
Great list.Tipi's gear list?

atmilkman
07-26-2012, 00:03
Good list.

The one that I never remember, even after all these years, is the "yield to those going uphill". It makes no sense to me at. If I'm going uphill I like waiting and taking a quick break. Anyway, it's never been an issue. I have never had a collision from forgetting the rule.
Same here about taking breaks uphill. I'm looking for any excuse to stop a minute. (LOL) What I have started doing going uphill is to try and not keep looking up. When I get to an uphill I look up and then I start by concentrating on my breathing trying to make it as subconcious as possible and just try to look straight into the hill and think (daydream) about other stuff. When I get to the crest I can usually say that wasn't that bad. I don't and can't do it all the time but I'm getting better at it. It sure beats looking up all the time and saying damn.

Supreme Being
07-26-2012, 00:30
Good list.

The one that I never remember, even after all these years, is the "yield to those going uphill". It makes no sense to me at. If I'm going uphill I like waiting and taking a quick break. Anyway, it's never been an issue. I have never had a collision from forgetting the rule.

Agreed. It's one I won't follow. I like taking a break when I am going uphill. Likewise, it is harder to stop when you are going downhill. Makes no sense to me where this "rule" came from.

moytoy
07-26-2012, 01:45
It's like baseball, lots of unwritten rules that don't make sense.

moytoy
07-26-2012, 02:14
It's like baseball, lots of unwritten rules that don't make sense.
To be clear I was commenting on the "yeld to those going uphill" rule. I like the list. It is just common courtesy really.

Hairbear
07-26-2012, 04:53
good list for sure,if i could ill add 1.the lady in the shelter didnt pack her butt 15 miles just so you would have something to stare at.if she is interested she will let you know.if after a few subtle hints she doesnt encourage you leave her alone and give her the respect due your sister or mother.

rocketsocks
07-26-2012, 05:24
good list for sure,if i could ill add 1.the lady in the shelter didnt pack her butt 15 miles just so you would have something to stare at.if she is interested she will let you know.if after a few subtle hints she doesnt encourage you leave her alone and give her the respect due your sister or mother.Could not agree with you more there Hairbear, just because and women smiles at you, and say's "Hello" that's no reason to think...."yeah, she want's me" be cool fool, don't be a tool.

rocketsocks
07-26-2012, 05:28
Trick question....another fire hazard.:DClearly this is an answer to another question, I just can't remember what the question was....."Oh Jack"...little help. oh wait, I remember now, duh, Oh Rasty!

rocketsocks
07-26-2012, 05:31
Clearly this is an answer to another question, I just can't remember what the question was....."Oh Jack"...little help. oh wait, I remember now, duh, Oh Rasty!What I can't figure, is how in the heck did it get in this thread:-?, chalk this one up to "Hyperspace"....i guess.:confused:

Creek Dancer
07-26-2012, 06:29
My personal rule is to pay it forward.

OzJacko
07-26-2012, 06:43
Clearly this is an answer to another question, I just can't remember what the question was....."Oh Jack"...little help. oh wait, I remember now, duh, Oh Rasty!
It sometimes concerns me how many definitions of "jack" Mr Webster has...:(

Love the list although I do subscribe to "the Elf's" more succinct version.

For those that like a trail where behaviour is more normally adhering to the list (and rules are posted in every hut) can I suggest a visit to my neck of the woods.
600miles, very different scenery and fauna/flora and a lot flatter.
Ideal for the older set.
:D

hikerboy57
07-26-2012, 06:54
What"older set?"

rickb
07-26-2012, 07:12
Nothing wrong with offering a thru hiker food if you are out for a weekend, but I hate to see this listed as proper proceedure. It sort of implies that if a weekender does not elect to do that then there he is somehow not living up to some kind of unwritten code.

Not sure what you mean by sticking to the high side of the trail or the need to hang food at a shelter-- unless you mean hanign your food from the rafters. If there isn't recent bear activity, that's still OK, correct?

No need to wory much at all about who should yield-- except that hiker should always move aside for horses in the smokies and on other non-AT trails where you find them. That sort of sorts itself out automatically. Somtimes its slow hiker going in your dircetion don't move over qucik enough, but that sorts itself out pretty easy too. No big deal on way or the other , I think.

OzJacko
07-26-2012, 07:18
Older than me HB, so that rules you out:p

I'll be on it for some of the time you're in Maine so I'll post a pic of the rules in every hut.
I won't say it's all civilised all the time but it generally is very well behaved and average age of hikers is way up on AT I'm sure.

Lemni Skate
07-26-2012, 07:24
DOs

Pleasantly nod and briefly greet hikers you pass on the trail - - especially in remote areas (Agreed)
Share important trail info (i.e. - "I just saw a bear at ___." or "There is no water at ___ shelter." etc. (Agreed)
Yield in general to uphill hikers (unless special circumstances exist) (This one really doesn't matter much. When I'm going uphill I always stop for the downhill people and hope they'll talk to me for a while so I have an "excuse" to rest).
Step to the high side of the trail to avoid erosion (Whenever possible)
Keep generally on the quiet side while hiking and camping so others can enjoy (please do this)
Practice basic LNT - - you should adhere to at least some forest preservation and care (if you want to call it something else, fine) (please do this)
If you are stealth camping, no one should be able to tell you were there at all - no fire ring, no tent indention, nothing. (impossible, but try)
Offer to get water if you are going to the water source - be helpful - offer hungry thru-hikers extra food if you are a weekender with plenty (This depends. There have been times when I was literally to tired to fill and carry all of own water bottles, but if possible, it's nice. I don't think it should be a rule or be expected, however).
Hang your food or bear-box if you are in the shelter - - if you are tenting, do what you do.(Agreed)
Throw mulch and leaves in the privy (When you use it...you don't have to walk by random privies and do this)
Be respectful of the trail, the forest, wildlife, and other hikers. (kinda covers everything)

Don'ts

Don't try to chat-up everyone you see - a nod and a smile is usually plenty (I don't mind people who want to talk--just take a hint when the other person isn't very responsive or flat out tells you they're not in the mood for conversation)
Don't get involved in someone else's epic (unless they are in real trouble) - fine line here. (Definitely easy to ruin your own hike trying to "help" someone else with something that doesn't really matter in the long run).
Don't build a campfire just because you are camping and don't build new fire rings (try a candle - they are nice) (I generally only build fires if I'm really cold and only in places that are built for it. I wouldn't build a new fire ring unless it was an emergency situation. Fires are more work than they're worth most of the time).
Don't build fires in the wind and cut down things in the woods (Duh)
Don't smoke in trail shelters - - some folks are allergic - - just politely step outside (One of the reasons I don't sleep in shelters unless it's late and there is no one else around.
Don't pitch your tent in a shelter (unless it's the dead of winter and no one is around) - it's rude (I never got this unless it was some sort of emergency)
Don't make a bunch of noise - people are mostly out for solace and relaxation - - they probably don't like your classic rock or whatever (Please follow this advice, but make enough noise that when you pass me from behind I don't wet myself because you move like a ninja panther)
Don't expect people to fetch you water and give you food - - asking and offering are a big difference (Yeah, thru-hikers really need to not expect any trail magic. If you get it, that's great, but that family of four hiked out with their sodas and steaks and lounge chairs because that's how they wanted to spend their weekend and they don't owe your hobo ass anything. They have to go back to work and school on Monday. You CHOSE to go on a thru and eat Ramen Noodles and GORP for 6 months so quit begging.)
If you know you are going to fart and snore all night long or make an ass of yourself, you should tent. (I disagree with this one. If you know you can't handle the normal and abnormal noises other people make in a shelter then you should tent. That's why I tent).
Don't leave your toilet paper on the ground - - it takes 2 seconds to bury it and it takes 2 months to go away if you don't. (No kidding. People are disgusting).
Don't pee in the privy (unless it just comes out and you can't help it) (Really? This is an issue?)

Lemni Skate
07-26-2012, 07:31
I should point out that I also don't feel like weekenders are even under common courtesy rules to offer food to thru-hikers. Food costs money. You might offer it up if the alternative is throwing it away, but giving stuff you worked for and payed for to other people who are out on a six month vacation is something beyond common courtesy in my book.

I say this as a person who likes to give trail magic, but if it starts being something I'm SUPPOSED to do instead of something people should be really thankful for, then I'm done.

OzJacko
07-26-2012, 07:36
I should point out that I also don't feel like weekenders are even under common courtesy rules to offer food to thru-hikers. Food costs money. You might offer it up if the alternative is throwing it away, but giving stuff you worked for and payed for to other people who are out on a six month vacation is something beyond common courtesy in my book.

I say this as a person who likes to give trail magic, but if it starts being something I'm SUPPOSED to do instead of something people should be really thankful for, then I'm done.
+1 on this
I am a trail magic kind of person but I hate the idea that hikers "expect" it.
I am all for thru hikers "sharing the wealth" but section hikers shouldn't have to share. Nice if they do tho...:cool:

T.S.Kobzol
07-26-2012, 07:42
I pretty much agree with your do's and don'ts but I do think that "offer hungry thru-hikers extra food if you are a weekender with plenty"

should not be focused only on thru-hikers and it would also be dependent upon their behavior.

Thru hikers are often in their own world and often also there is a cultural disconnect between weekenders and thru hikers. It is logical, however, if I am a weekender and a thru hiker around me is generally behaving in disinterested or in any way antagonistic way toward me then there is no way in hell that I would offer them anything.

OTOH Between the ages of 7 and 15 I grew up backpacking with a fringe group that enjoyed somewhat of a cult following with archaic rules. Food was shared and there was no easy way to object (it was possible though), cigarette butts were not thrown into the fire, bright colors were frowned upon, tents were not accepted ... ;-) I could go on and on. It was a good learning experience but I was also glad to separate and be on my own and thousands of miles away lol. The only thing I still keep from that era is the T.S. (Tramp Solitary)

So today when I see these rules listed I sort of cringe. I'd say HYOH but please just don't make a mess in the woods.

Peace.


I'm going to list a few dos and don'ts as see how you feel about them. I'm a HYOH type but there are a few AT practices that everyone should know.
This list is not at all comprehensive. Feel free to add on or disagree:

DOs

Pleasantly nod and briefly greet hikers you pass on the trail - - especially in remote areas
Share important trail info (i.e. - "I just saw a bear at ___." or "There is no water at ___ shelter." etc.
Yield in general to uphill hikers (unless special circumstances exist)
Step to the high side of the trail to avoid erosion
Keep generally on the quiet side while hiking and camping so others can enjoy
Practice basic LNT - - you should adhere to at least some forest preservation and care (if you want to call it something else, fine)
If you are stealth camping, no one should be able to tell you were there at all - no fire ring, no tent indention, nothing.
Offer to get water if you are going to the water source - be helpful - offer hungry thru-hikers extra food if you are a weekender with plenty
Hang your food or bear-box if you are in the shelter - - if you are tenting, do what you do.
Throw mulch and leaves in the privy
Be respectful of the trail, the forest, wildlife, and other hikers.

Don'ts

Don't try to chat-up everyone you see - a nod and a smile is usually plenty
Don't get involved in someone else's epic (unless they are in real trouble) - fine line here.
Don't build a campfire just because you are camping and don't build new fire rings (try a candle - they are nice)
Don't build fires in the wind and cut down things in the woods
Don't smoke in trail shelters - - some folks are allergic - - just politely step outside
Don't pitch your tent in a shelter (unless it's the dead of winter and no one is around) - it's rude
Don't make a bunch of noise - people are mostly out for solace and relaxation - - they probably don't like your classic rock or whatever
Don't expect people to fetch you water and give you food - - asking and offering are a big difference
If you know you are going to fart and snore all night long or make an ass of yourself, you should tent.
Don't leave your toilet paper on the ground - - it takes 2 seconds to bury it and it takes 2 months to go away if you don't.
Don't pee in the privy (unless it just comes out and you can't help it)

Pedaling Fool
07-26-2012, 07:51
Oh geez, not another etiquette thread :D

WingedMonkey
07-26-2012, 09:11
DO: Leave me alone.

DON'T: Bother Me.

:sun

ChinMusic
07-26-2012, 09:43
Oh geez, not another etiquette thread :D

Oh gee, not another oldtimer that just HAS to post that he has seen this thread before:D

fredmugs
07-26-2012, 11:31
DO: Leave me alone.

DON'T: Bother Me.

:sun

Winner! I take it you have never worked for the federal government.

Drybones
07-26-2012, 12:17
DO: Leave me alone.

DON'T: Bother Me.

:sun

Cliff note version...sums it up...like it!

Drybones
07-26-2012, 12:24
It sometimes concerns me how many definitions of "jack" Mr Webster has...:(

Love the list although I do subscribe to "the Elf's" more succinct version.

For those that like a trail where behaviour is more normally adhering to the list (and rules are posted in every hut) can I suggest a visit to my neck of the woods.
600miles, very different scenery and fauna/flora and a lot flatter.
Ideal for the older set.
:D

Age is a case of mind over matter...if you dont mind, it dont matter.
My wife says I may grow old, but I'll never grow up.

V Eight
07-26-2012, 12:59
I'm going to list a few dos and don'ts as see how you feel about them. I'm a HYOH type but there are a few AT practices that everyone should know.
This list is not at all comprehensive. Feel free to add on or disagree:

DOs

Pleasantly nod and briefly greet hikers you pass on the trail - - especially in remote areas
Share important trail info (i.e. - "I just saw a bear at ___." or "There is no water at ___ shelter." etc.
Yield in general to uphill hikers (unless special circumstances exist)
Step to the high side of the trail to avoid erosion
Keep generally on the quiet side while hiking and camping so others can enjoy
Practice basic LNT - - you should adhere to at least some forest preservation and care (if you want to call it something else, fine)
If you are stealth camping, no one should be able to tell you were there at all - no fire ring, no tent indention, nothing.
Offer to get water if you are going to the water source - be helpful - offer hungry thru-hikers extra food if you are a weekender with plenty
Hang your food or bear-box if you are in the shelter - - if you are tenting, do what you do.
Throw mulch and leaves in the privy
Be respectful of the trail, the forest, wildlife, and other hikers.

Don'ts

Don't try to chat-up everyone you see - a nod and a smile is usually plenty
Don't get involved in someone else's epic (unless they are in real trouble) - fine line here.
Don't build a campfire just because you are camping and don't build new fire rings (try a candle - they are nice)
Don't build fires in the wind and cut down things in the woods
Don't smoke in trail shelters - - some folks are allergic - - just politely step outside
Don't pitch your tent in a shelter (unless it's the dead of winter and no one is around) - it's rude
Don't make a bunch of noise - people are mostly out for solace and relaxation - - they probably don't like your classic rock or whatever
Don't expect people to fetch you water and give you food - - asking and offering are a big difference
If you know you are going to fart and snore all night long or make an ass of yourself, you should tent.
Don't leave your toilet paper on the ground - - it takes 2 seconds to bury it and it takes 2 months to go away if you don't.
Don't pee in the privy (unless it just comes out and you can't help it)


Will there be a test? Should I take notes? Or Will WM's cliff note version suffice?

Spokes
07-26-2012, 14:52
To expand on the sharing food theme:

DO offer pre-packaged food/snacks if you have extra

Don't eat out of anyone's food bag (i.e., GORP). It's a good way of spreading Giardia.

Loneoak
07-26-2012, 15:47
Great list, it's all just common sense and most folks like yourself, realize this.

Papa D
07-26-2012, 22:03
Nothing wrong with offering a thru hiker food if you are out for a weekend, but I hate to see this listed as proper proceedure. It sort of implies that if a weekender does not elect to do that then there he is somehow not living up to some kind of unwritten code.

Not sure what you mean by sticking to the high side of the trail or the need to hang food at a shelter-- unless you mean hanign your food from the rafters. If there isn't recent bear activity, that's still OK, correct?

No need to wory much at all about who should yield-- except that hiker should always move aside for horses in the smokies and on other non-AT trails where you find them. That sort of sorts itself out automatically. Somtimes its slow hiker going in your dircetion don't move over qucik enough, but that sorts itself out pretty easy too. No big deal on way or the other , I think.

OK:

1) Sticking to the high side of the trail helps prevent erosion - if the trail runs along the side (by example) of a ridge, stepping on the low side tends to break a dirt barrier causing small slides and runoff problems

2) If you have food in the shelter, it becomes everyone staying there's problem - you should hang it using mouse baffles or from a tree (or bear box it) in bear land - - if you are in a tent and elect to sleep with your food
in your pack (which I actually do do sometimes), my point is that you are taking this risk on your own and not subjecting shelter occupants to possible mouse, raccoon, bear, etc. activity.

Papa D
07-26-2012, 22:05
Will there be a test? Should I take notes? Or Will WM's cliff note version suffice?

when I see you on the trail there will be a test - yes - please pack a #2 pencil because I use those bubbles you fill out - I carry an electronic scoring machine in my food bag with a crank charger

Papa D
07-26-2012, 22:09
My personal rule is to pay it forward.

I was JUST at the Mizpah Springs Hut in NH last week - - I guy walked up and ponied up $4 to buy me and my friend a bowl of hot soup - said he was 'paying something forward" - it was really appreciated - - I'll have to do this soon - good comment.

cknight
07-26-2012, 22:21
Smoking in shelters, Just hiked 150 miles in PA, every night there was someone rolling and smoking (tobacco) in the shelter. It was interesting, to a non smoker, to watch the mostly young hikers put so much effort smoking every last bit of the tobacco, however, it was quite disrespectful. I kept my mouth shut, not normal for me, after all, they were through hikers, 1000 miles into the greatest adventure of there lives.

Wise Old Owl
07-26-2012, 22:21
Oh gee, not another oldtimer that just HAS to post that he has seen this thread before:D

next WB roast we need you to be a fin host.... you are qualified!:cool:

Papa D
07-26-2012, 22:27
Smoking in shelters, Just hiked 150 miles in PA, every night there was someone rolling and smoking (tobacco) in the shelter. It was interesting, to a non smoker, to watch the mostly young hikers put so much effort smoking every last bit of the tobacco, however, it was quite disrespectful. I kept my mouth shut, not normal for me, after all, they were through hikers, 1000 miles into the greatest adventure of there lives.

yeah - this is the subject of another post but what the heck is with all the thru hikers now smoking roll ups - it is soooo terrible for you - - MJ would be a lot better - I really hate smoke in the shelters - just say something - most will move outside or at least blow it that way.

Papa D
07-26-2012, 22:28
next WB roast we need you to be a fin host.... you are qualified!:cool:


okey dokey

cknight
07-26-2012, 22:35
yeah - this is the subject of another post but what the heck is with all the thru hikers now smoking roll ups - it is soooo terrible for you - - MJ would be a lot better - I really hate smoke in the shelters - just say something - most will move outside or at least blow it that way.
i understand its cheaper to roll them. Something about taxes on manfactured smokes.

Wise Old Owl
07-26-2012, 22:36
Age is a case of mind over matter...if you dont mind, it dont matter.
My wife says I may grow old, but I'll never grow up.


Preaching to the choir.... your first mistake was quoting your wife! Quote Cher next time she hates men more...look who she married....oh I did it again.... Sorry wow you folks need to try prescriptions.... they are so better than poppin Shelter mice!


Check ta Sig Line! Ya man

Hairbear
07-26-2012, 22:40
DOs

Pleasantly nod and briefly greet hikers you pass on the trail - - especially in remote areas (Agreed)
Share important trail info (i.e. - "I just saw a bear at ___." or "There is no water at ___ shelter." etc. (Agreed)
Yield in general to uphill hikers (unless special circumstances exist) (This one really doesn't matter much. When I'm going uphill I always stop for the downhill people and hope they'll talk to me for a while so I have an "excuse" to rest).
Step to the high side of the trail to avoid erosion (Whenever possible)
Keep generally on the quiet side while hiking and camping so others can enjoy (please do this)
Practice basic LNT - - you should adhere to at least some forest preservation and care (if you want to call it something else, fine) (please do this)
If you are stealth camping, no one should be able to tell you were there at all - no fire ring, no tent indention, nothing. (impossible, but try)
Offer to get water if you are going to the water source - be helpful - offer hungry thru-hikers extra food if you are a weekender with plenty (This depends. There have been times when I was literally to tired to fill and carry all of own water bottles, but if possible, it's nice. I don't think it should be a rule or be expected, however).
Hang your food or bear-box if you are in the shelter - - if you are tenting, do what you do.(Agreed)
Throw mulch and leaves in the privy (When you use it...you don't have to walk by random privies and do this)
Be respectful of the trail, the forest, wildlife, and other hikers. (kinda covers everything)

Don'ts

Don't try to chat-up everyone you see - a nod and a smile is usually plenty (I don't mind people who want to talk--just take a hint when the other person isn't very responsive or flat out tells you they're not in the mood for conversation)
Don't get involved in someone else's epic (unless they are in real trouble) - fine line here. (Definitely easy to ruin your own hike trying to "help" someone else with something that doesn't really matter in the long run).
Don't build a campfire just because you are camping and don't build new fire rings (try a candle - they are nice) (I generally only build fires if I'm really cold and only in places that are built for it. I wouldn't build a new fire ring unless it was an emergency situation. Fires are more work than they're worth most of the time).
Don't build fires in the wind and cut down things in the woods (Duh)
Don't smoke in trail shelters - - some folks are allergic - - just politely step outside (One of the reasons I don't sleep in shelters unless it's late and there is no one else around.
Don't pitch your tent in a shelter (unless it's the dead of winter and no one is around) - it's rude (I never got this unless it was some sort of emergency)
Don't make a bunch of noise - people are mostly out for solace and relaxation - - they probably don't like your classic rock or whatever (Please follow this advice, but make enough noise that when you pass me from behind I don't wet myself because you move like a ninja panther)
Don't expect people to fetch you water and give you food - - asking and offering are a big difference (Yeah, thru-hikers really need to not expect any trail magic. If you get it, that's great, but that family of four hiked out with their sodas and steaks and lounge chairs because that's how they wanted to spend their weekend and they don't owe your hobo ass anything. They have to go back to work and school on Monday. You CHOSE to go on a thru and eat Ramen Noodles and GORP for 6 months so quit begging.)
If you know you are going to fart and snore all night long or make an ass of yourself, you should tent. (I disagree with this one. If you know you can't handle the normal and abnormal noises other people make in a shelter then you should tent. That's why I tent).
Don't leave your toilet paper on the ground - - it takes 2 seconds to bury it and it takes 2 months to go away if you don't. (No kidding. People are disgusting).
Don't pee in the privy (unless it just comes out and you can't help it) (Really? This is an issue?)
heres the skinny on the composting outhouse you dont pee in it because it change the deposits to a non benificial enviroment for the microbial action that a compost toilet needs to break down the deposits/food for bacteria.if you pee in it it is not a solid and splashes up very undesirably when the splash happens.pee will leach out to the ground around the toilet changing the acidity of the soil and killing plants around it.now think about wading through a mud whole made of pee ,dont worry the flies will break you fall.pee is protien /nitrogen when cut with water 1 part pee 10 part water you get fertilizer.dilute and improve whats around you.

Hairbear
07-26-2012, 22:45
proper way to flush a composting toilet is to carry green leaf matter with you when you go in after you do your thing cover it with plant matter not only will noone have to look at your master peice,but the moisture and food in the plant matter creates an explosion of bacterial action.ive had one going for three years have never had to empty it.high bacterial action eliminates most of the odor.

Driver8
07-26-2012, 22:48
yeah - this is the subject of another post but what the heck is with all the thru hikers now smoking roll ups - it is soooo terrible for you - - MJ would be a lot better - I really hate smoke in the shelters - just say something - most will move outside or at least blow it that way.

MJ does about 10x the damage per cigarette to the lungs that tobacco does. A lot more oily residue. I'm libertarian on this and think MJ should be legal and treated similarly to alcohol and tobacco, but it bears mentioning that smoking it is terrible for the lungs, as is tobacky.

Driver8
07-26-2012, 22:49
proper way to flush a composting toilet is to carry green leaf matter with you when you go in after you do your thing cover it with plant matter not only will noone have to look at your master peice,but the moisture and food in the plant matter creates an explosion of bacterial action.ive had one going for three years have never had to empty it.high bacterial action eliminates most of the odor.

This is very useful to know. Thanks, HB and Papa D.

Wise Old Owl
07-26-2012, 22:50
i had no idea i had to wipe with P....IVY thank's for clearing that up....ohhh damn I be right ......back got to itch.... move out of the way Rugby.

Hairbear
07-26-2012, 22:51
its a responsible way of dealing with your waste without inflicting our waste on our streams and rivers.and boy will you be doing the trail a favor just ask the trail workers they send to empty your privy when its full.

Hairbear
07-26-2012, 22:57
i had no idea i had to wipe with P....IVY thank's for clearing that up....ohhh damn I be right ......back got to itch.... move out of the way Rugby.
lmao you dont wipe with the gren use paper and take it out and bury it use green for food offering only.hows your leg doing

Wise Old Owl
07-26-2012, 23:10
uhh limpin.... real bad hurts to get out of the nest.

Bronk
07-27-2012, 05:10
Keep generally on the quiet side while hiking and camping so others can enjoy




Why does one person's desire for quiet trump another's desire to make noise?





Practice basic LNT - - you should adhere to at least some forest preservation and care (if you want to call it something else, fine)


Why are humans the only ones who don't have a right to leave their mark on the world? And why are such traces suddenly held up as cultural treasures after an arbitrary amount of time passes? The desert west is riddled with litter from the pioneers who participated in the westward expansion, and people are urged to leave this litter in place rather than collect it as souveniers. Likewise, for thousands of years humans have put their grafitti on rocks...we criticize those who do it today, yet count the examples from the past as cultural treasures.





If you are stealth camping, no one should be able to tell you were there at all - no fire ring, no tent indention, nothing.



This sounds more like LNT. Like LNT, 'stealth camping' is an arbitrary definition that will depend upon what your purpose for 'stealth camping' is. The most basic definition is probably "trying not to be seen" which can be done for a variety of reasons.




Offer to get water if you are going to the water source - be helpful - offer hungry thru-hikers extra food if you are a weekender with plenty



Thruhikers get no special status. If you brought too much food and want to give it away, that's your business, and thruhikers are probably a good bet to get rid of it quick and easy. But there might also be an inexperienced weekender who forgot to bring what you're giving away and would appreciate it just as much or more. If you put your food in a hiker box you are throwing it away. Don't complain because somebody who lives local to the hiker box stops in every Sunday afternoon and empties it out...free means free, and nobody has dibs on the stuff in that box, except maybe the owner of the establishment hosting it.





Don't build a campfire just because you are camping and don't build new fire rings (try a candle - they are nice)



Again arbitrary. There are fire rings on the trail...somebody had to build them. Many of them are built and disassembled every year by self appointed do gooders. You can choose to be either. Some people also build dirty wooden boxes in the woods for people to sleep in. All arbitrary.





Don't smoke in trail shelters - - some folks are allergic - - just politely step outside
If you know you are going to fart and snore all night long or make an ass of yourself, you should tent.



If you don't like smokers, farters, snorers, early risers, stay up laters, or any of the other obnoxious things that humans do, the best way to avoid that is to sleep by yourself, in your tent.

hikerboy57
07-27-2012, 06:30
I hope you're being sarcastic. do you really think a beer can in fire ring is a cultural treasure?? thru hikers carrying too much food? make noise at all hours of the night?

OzJacko
07-27-2012, 06:48
Gee you do get up early HB...

I agree mostly with there being no special status for thru hikers (or any other hikers) that warrants them being given stuff.
If people ditch stuff then it is there for whoever comes along.
But where I disagree with Bronk is that essentially you shouldn't do things that other people can't avoid.
Smoking in a shelter is like idling the car in an underground carpark - it affects everyone else in the place.
Littering can add hazards for wildlife and is as unacceptable as throwing your rubbish in the street gutter.
At the end of the day, etiquette and manners are the lubricant that ease friction between people. We are fast losing it mainstream society, let's try and keep it a bit longer in the "woods".
But I do agree that man is a creature who has and will continue to leave it's mark everywhere.
Is Fontana Dam any less worthy of admiration than a beaver dam?
I have no problem with well kept fire rings and campsites and even things that can be considered graffitti by some. But I would hope that we could have progressed beyond the "Kilroy was here" mindless drivel that many seek to impose on us.

Papa D
07-27-2012, 08:22
MJ does about 10x the damage per cigarette to the lungs that tobacco does. A lot more oily residue. I'm libertarian on this and think MJ should be legal and treated similarly to alcohol and tobacco, but it bears mentioning that smoking it is terrible for the lungs, as is tobacky.

I would agree with this - - I don't smoke anything - - I think that tobacco is outright stupid for a ton of reasons (including lungs) - I would like shelters to always be smoke free - - I was just saying that at least people smoking other products get a little more bang for their buck - but I'm with you. My point is keeping it outside the shelters.

Papa D
07-27-2012, 08:24
Why does one person's desire for quiet trump another's desire to make noise?



Why are humans the only ones who don't have a right to leave their mark on the world? And why are such traces suddenly held up as cultural treasures after an arbitrary amount of time passes? The desert west is riddled with litter from the pioneers who participated in the westward expansion, and people are urged to leave this litter in place rather than collect it as souveniers. Likewise, for thousands of years humans have put their grafitti on rocks...we criticize those who do it today, yet count the examples from the past as cultural treasures.




This sounds more like LNT. Like LNT, 'stealth camping' is an arbitrary definition that will depend upon what your purpose for 'stealth camping' is. The most basic definition is probably "trying not to be seen" which can be done for a variety of reasons.



Thruhikers get no special status. If you brought too much food and want to give it away, that's your business, and thruhikers are probably a good bet to get rid of it quick and easy. But there might also be an inexperienced weekender who forgot to bring what you're giving away and would appreciate it just as much or more. If you put your food in a hiker box you are throwing it away. Don't complain because somebody who lives local to the hiker box stops in every Sunday afternoon and empties it out...free means free, and nobody has dibs on the stuff in that box, except maybe the owner of the establishment hosting it.



Again arbitrary. There are fire rings on the trail...somebody had to build them. Many of them are built and disassembled every year by self appointed do gooders. You can choose to be either. Some people also build dirty wooden boxes in the woods for people to sleep in. All arbitrary.




If you don't like smokers, farters, snorers, early risers, stay up laters, or any of the other obnoxious things that humans do, the best way to avoid that is to sleep by yourself, in your tent.

I'm a self appointed do-gooder - I'm sure you'll make a lot of friends out there with your considerate attitude.

Papa D
07-27-2012, 08:27
heres the skinny on the composting outhouse you dont pee in it because it change the deposits to a non benificial enviroment for the microbial action that a compost toilet needs to break down the deposits/food for bacteria.if you pee in it it is not a solid and splashes up very undesirably when the splash happens.pee will leach out to the ground around the toilet changing the acidity of the soil and killing plants around it.now think about wading through a mud whole made of pee ,dont worry the flies will break you fall.pee is protien /nitrogen when cut with water 1 part pee 10 part water you get fertilizer.dilute and improve whats around you.

thanks for the science - - I couldn't have explained this as well - - I also wish people would use about 1/3 of the toilet paper that they use now - it would be plenty.

OzJacko
07-27-2012, 08:34
thanks for the science - - I couldn't have explained this as well - - I also wish people would use about 1/3 of the toilet paper that they use now - it would be plenty.
Ahhh - but now do we discuss whether we should scrunch or fold the TP?:D

Rasty
07-27-2012, 08:41
Ahhh - but now do we discuss whether we should scrunch or fold the TP?:D

Always scrunch. Always load the toilet paper roll which ever direction your wife tells you also!
:)

atmilkman
07-27-2012, 08:42
Why does one person's desire for quiet trump another's desire to make noise?














That's right. How do you know that they're not just scared of all the things that go bump in the night and making a lot of noise is their way of dealing with it. A defense mechanism if you will to keep all the boogers away.

OzJacko
07-27-2012, 08:45
Always scrunch. Always load the toilet paper roll which ever direction your wife tells you also!
:)
I load the paper with the paper coming down closest to the wall.
Motels/hotels everywhere will tell you the roll lasts longer this way!!!
I always fold - always have several layers between hand and ....

Drybones
07-27-2012, 09:01
thanks for the science - - I couldn't have explained this as well - - I also wish people would use about 1/3 of the toilet paper that they use now - it would be plenty.

Why use any TP...do as they do in the mid-east...here...let me shake your hand.

Drybones
07-27-2012, 09:08
I load the paper with the paper coming down closest to the wall.
Motels/hotels everywhere will tell you the roll lasts longer this way!!!
I always fold - always have several layers between hand and ....

I take two sheets and fold three times, strategicly lay on a nearby log for easy access. If you've had a knee go out and not bend you understand the need for a log...really builds the triceps.

Drybones
07-27-2012, 09:10
I load the paper with the paper coming down closest to the wall.
Motels/hotels everywhere will tell you the roll lasts longer this way!!!
I always fold - always have several layers between hand and ....

So that's why they put the TP in backwards and make it harder to get...those cheap rascals! I always wondered...thanks.

OzJacko
07-27-2012, 09:14
Of course if it's a hotel used by hikers the whole roll disappears.
It's like YHA's in the UK never have any teaspoons left....

Drybones
07-27-2012, 09:15
That's right. How do you know that they're not just scared of all the things that go bump in the night and making a lot of noise is their way of dealing with it. A defense mechanism if you will to keep all the boogers away.

Also...quiet people are the ones that carry guns...hush now!

atmilkman
07-27-2012, 09:17
I load the paper with the paper coming down closest to the wall.
Motels/hotels everywhere will tell you the roll lasts longer this way!!!
I always fold - always have several layers between hand and ....
When I was younger I worked in housekeeping at a hospital and the head janitor told me just the opposite. He said to load it where it comes off over the front because the weight of the roll will keep it from spinning off too much, and when loaded coming off closest to the wall the weight of the roll just lets it run easier. No kidding this is what I was told, I was all but scolded. (LOL)

Berserker
07-27-2012, 12:34
If you know you are going to fart and snore all night long or make an ass of yourself, you should tent.
Ha ha ha...that ones funny.

Don't leave your toilet paper on the ground - - it takes 2 seconds to bury it and it takes 2 months to go away if you don't.
Preach it brotha! Oh yeah, and I'll add not to leave turds in the high traffic areas (on the trail, next to the shelter, in the middle of a tenting area, etc.).

Don't pee in the privy (unless it just comes out and you can't help it)
Actually if I'm not mistaken some of the privies in NJ (I think that's the state I saw them in) had instructions in them that said it was ok to pee in them. I don't claim to understand the microbiology of the privies, but if it says it's ok to pee in it and you happen to already be there ready to pee then I say go for it.

Pedaling Fool
07-27-2012, 17:59
Actually if I'm not mistaken some of the privies in NJ (I think that's the state I saw them in) had instructions in them that said it was ok to pee in them. I don't claim to understand the microbiology of the privies, but if it says it's ok to pee in it and you happen to already be there ready to pee then I say go for it.
Actually, no one really understand privy biology, micro or otherwise; if you gotta pee, then pee :)

hikerboy57
07-27-2012, 19:42
I never realized peeing was a problem.if i have to pee why would I go to a privy at all.its not very hard to find a place to pee

Papa D
07-27-2012, 19:52
I never realized peeing was a problem.if i have to pee why would I go to a privy at all.its not very hard to find a place to pee

I think some privies are just deeply dug outhouses where it's ok to pee (maybe this is the case in NJ) when it eventually fills up, someone fills it with dirt and digs another - - I'm really not sure.
The more common privies on the AT are composting privies where solid human waste is ideally mixed with organic matter (mulch, leaves, etc.) it is turned into compost and ultimately distributed back
into the forest by very hard working thankless caretakers and volunteers. In the white mountains, most of the tent site fees go to pay for helicopters to fly in bagged mulch to mix with human waste -
gross but true. When you pee in these privies or add a bunch of TP (aka sh&t tickets) you subterfuge the whole process - - typically, I choose to by-pass the whole process in a different way - -

on occasion, I properly use the privies but I usually pee in the woods - - for solid waste, I dig a 5" deep cat-hole and pack the TP out in a little ziplock - - if I'm out for an extended time, I might bury a
square or two but to my thinking, it's better than leaving it to the caretakers and volunteers who literally have enough sh^t to deal with.

Pedaling Fool
07-27-2012, 19:57
I never realized peeing was a problem.if i have to pee why would I go to a privy at all.its not very hard to find a place to peeFor Sure! It is an issue with many privies of the moldering type and they do have signs that say don't pee in the privy. If given an option, pee in the woods or pee in a privy, I'd pee in the woods. I'd even go as far as sayin' that you ain't a real guy if you pick a privy to pee in:D

Why do they have these signs then, I don't know, but I can only guess it's for when you're doing you're business, everyone pees then. And also a lot of women choose a privy over the woods, at least that's been my impression.


Opening Ceremony for the Olympics happening now!!! :banana

Pedaling Fool
07-27-2012, 20:01
When you pee in these privies or add a bunch of TP (aka sh&t tickets) you subterfuge the whole process - - typically, I choose to by-pass the whole process in a different way - -


Composting is NOT that exact of a science, but with respect to TP, it can only help, because it adds much needed carbon to the mix, really no different than adding a handful of duff.

Wise Old Owl
07-27-2012, 20:38
Why use any TP...do as they do in the mid-east...here...let me shake your hand.


I could go what an idiot? Duh, no trees, no leaves, seriously I know you are joking! but it really is cultural and well get over it folks... got to be clean somehow!


Wait was this the wromg thread?

Papa D
07-27-2012, 22:00
Composting is NOT that exact of a science, but with respect to TP, it can only help, because it adds much needed carbon to the mix, really no different than adding a handful of duff.

interesting thought - - I would still think duff is better but thanks

Tramp
07-27-2012, 22:20
I learned all this at 13 y/o ,, its called the scout law.

BigBadger
07-28-2012, 00:10
These lists always seem so self absorbed, its just walking in the woods, don't be an ass

Papa D
07-28-2012, 07:25
I learned all this at 13 y/o ,, its called the scout law.


THESE ??



Trustworthy,
Loyal,
Helpful,
Friendly,
Courteous,
Kind,
Obedient,
Cheerful,
Thrifty,
Brave,
Clean,
and Reverent.


These are just a bunch of nice terms that are easy to memorize and batt around but they are incredibly general - - they can and do mean nearly anything to anyone.

I find that many new folks and those that are set in their ways would do good to learn, WHAT SPECIFIC things are considered rude, and WHY exactly you don't do certain things because many things in the forest setting are counterintuitive. To some, cutting down a tree with an axe and making a rock fire ring might seem "thrifty" or it might seem "brave" to sleep with your food around bears and it might seem "clean" to wash your dishes in the creek, "reverent" to record your adventure by carving something on the shelter wall, or even "friendly" to talk my ear off when I'm trying to sleep at 9:00 pm. This sort of knee-jerk response is SOO typical of those that don't have a real clue.

Kryptonite
07-28-2012, 07:41
THESE ??



Trustworthy,
Loyal,
Helpful,
Friendly,
Courteous,
Kind,
Obedient,
Cheerful,
Thrifty,
Brave,
Clean,
and Reverent.

These are just a bunch of nice terms that are easy to memorize and batt around but they are incredibly general - - they can and do mean nearly anything to anyone.

I find that many new folks and those that are set in their ways would do good to learn, WHAT SPECIFIC things are considered rude, and WHY exactly you don't do certain things because many things in the forest setting are counterintuitive. To some, cutting down a tree with an axe and making a rock fire ring might seem "thrifty" or it might seem "brave" to sleep with your food around bears and it might seem "clean" to wash your dishes in the creek, "reverent" to record your adventure by carving something on the shelter wall, or even "friendly" to talk my ear off when I'm trying to sleep at 9:00 pm. This sort of knee-jerk response is SOO typical of those that don't have a real clue.

Good answer!

Hairbear
07-28-2012, 08:24
Composting is NOT that exact of a science, but with respect to TP, it can only help, because it adds much needed carbon to the mix, really no different than adding a handful of duff. hi i dont want to seem like im trying to discredit your opinion,but tp in a composting privy is not a good thing.someone else stated that it takes months to break down tp.heres what happens when you do put tp in.it slows the overall composting action very much think of it in terms of volume if you filled a jar with rocks and salt at a 50/50 blend now add water and shake.now tip upside down with opening on table what happens water runs away carrying the salt and you left with the rocks still in the jar.the rocks are the tp at the end of a digestive cycle.now lets picture the emptying of the privy(imagine digging in soil with a burlap bag burried in it )now the matterial is out of the privy and ready to spread in the woods can you see all the undigested tp laying on the ground.sorry dont want to look like a crap specialist or anything.hiking is my passion ,but permaculture is my life style of choice.its part of my enviromental activist choice in life.

Hairbear
07-28-2012, 08:38
hi i dont want to seem like im trying to discredit your opinion,but tp in a composting privy is not a good thing.someone else stated that it takes months to break down tp.heres what happens when you do put tp in.it slows the overall composting action very much think of it in terms of volume if you filled a jar with rocks and salt at a 50/50 blend now add water and shake.now tip upside down with opening on table what happens water runs away carrying the salt and you left with the rocks still in the jar.the rocks are the tp at the end of a digestive cycle.now lets picture the emptying of the privy(imagine digging in soil with a burlap bag burried in it )now the matterial is out of the privy and ready to spread in the woods can you see all the undigested tp laying on the ground.sorry dont want to look like a crap specialist or anything.hiking is my passion ,but permaculture is my life style of choice.its part of my enviromental activist choice in life. i guess i should be more clear if you did your bussines in a hole and burried it you would be right its continual refilling and that hurts in a privy because dung is eaten paper piles up.when the privy is full i would bet a great percentage of it is mostly the paper in varios degrees of breakdown with the fresher deposits on top.

Papa D
07-28-2012, 08:54
hi i dont want to seem like im trying to discredit your opinion,but tp in a composting privy is not a good thing.someone else stated that it takes months to break down tp.heres what happens when you do put tp in.it slows the overall composting action very much think of it in terms of volume if you filled a jar with rocks and salt at a 50/50 blend now add water and shake.now tip upside down with opening on table what happens water runs away carrying the salt and you left with the rocks still in the jar.the rocks are the tp at the end of a digestive cycle.now lets picture the emptying of the privy(imagine digging in soil with a burlap bag burried in it )now the matterial is out of the privy and ready to spread in the woods can you see all the undigested tp laying on the ground.sorry dont want to look like a crap specialist or anything.hiking is my passion ,but permaculture is my life style of choice.its part of my enviromental activist choice in life.

This would be in line with my opinion on the matter - - thanks.

Pedaling Fool
07-28-2012, 09:13
hi i dont want to seem like im trying to discredit your opinion,but tp in a composting privy is not a good thing.someone else stated that it takes months to break down tp.heres what happens when you do put tp in.it slows the overall composting action very much think of it in terms of volume if you filled a jar with rocks and salt at a 50/50 blend now add water and shake.now tip upside down with opening on table what happens water runs away carrying the salt and you left with the rocks still in the jar.the rocks are the tp at the end of a digestive cycle.now lets picture the emptying of the privy(imagine digging in soil with a burlap bag burried in it )now the matterial is out of the privy and ready to spread in the woods can you see all the undigested tp laying on the ground.sorry dont want to look like a crap specialist or anything.hiking is my passion ,but permaculture is my life style of choice.its part of my enviromental activist choice in life.


i guess i should be more clear if you did your bussines in a hole and burried it you would be right its continual refilling and that hurts in a privy because dung is eaten paper piles up.when the privy is full i would bet a great percentage of it is mostly the paper in varios degrees of breakdown with the fresher deposits on top.So what are you saying? Everyone must pack out their toilet paper?

Excrement has a C:N ratio of about 20:1 so it needs more carbon http://www.wormdigest.org/content/view/44/2/

If you look at composting toilets almost none says to keep out toilet paper http://www.omick.net/composting_toilets/composting_toilets.htm Just one example.

All TP is, is just wood, there's nothing unnatural about it. How quickly it decomposes is more a factor of how well it's worked into the pile and the moisture content.

Papa D
07-28-2012, 09:24
alas, my thread has sunken down to the toilet paper in the bottom of privies - a new low:o

Pedaling Fool
07-28-2012, 09:32
alas, my thread has sunken down to the toilet paper in the bottom of privies - a new low:oThe act of "Establishing Proper Procedure" is dirty business :D

Your opinion of what's "proper" must be scrutinized or else it's just a dictatorship -- ahh, the act of sharing ideas and living in a democracy, such fun.... ;)

WingedMonkey
07-28-2012, 09:56
Actually, no one really understand privy biology, micro or otherwise; if you gotta pee, then pee :)

I understand the biology quite well. I feed solid waste to Black Soldier Fly Larvae (Hermetia illucens) and the liquid waste to Duckweed (Lemna minor) pond.

Then I use the compost from both to grow more stuff.

The bike road races are on now.!!!

Papa D
07-28-2012, 10:02
The act of "Establishing Proper Procedure" is dirty business :D

Your opinion of what's "proper" must be scrutinized or else it's just a dictatorship -- ahh, the act of sharing ideas and living in a democracy, such fun.... ;)

that's very true

Hairbear
07-28-2012, 10:03
So what are you saying? Everyone must pack out their toilet paper?

Excrement has a C:N ratio of about 20:1 so it needs more carbon http://www.wormdigest.org/content/view/44/2/

If you look at composting toilets almost none says to keep out toilet paper http://www.omick.net/composting_toilets/composting_toilets.htm Just one example.

All TP is, is just wood, there's nothing unnatural about it. How quickly it decomposes is more a factor of how well it's worked into the pile and the moisture content.
no im not saying pack out tp i said bury it.thanks for posting the worm thing ill look at that later.as far as the outhouse side of it, that is all i have for waste management.i made a decision a while ago not to be involved in our modern water supply or waste management systems in place today.i just dont see the logic in pumping our sewer into rivers ,and then pumping it back out and making drinking water out of it.if they post recomendations for river fish populations as being non food worthy its time to do something different.i compost all my waste so i dont have anything leaving my farm.i use human waste composted with rotting wood chips that come from my tree work.its great because it get rid of two waste products.i also get free fertilizer for my field.all i know is what ive learned in the research of how to do this without having a disease problem or impact on the enviroment.ive made it work well for me for three years now.i quoted you only because it was the first one i saw on topic sorry didnt try to single anyone out.

Hairbear
07-28-2012, 10:09
alot of tp has chemical from paper making process,deodorizers,perfumes,die for patterns,lubrications in some cases.thats what slows thigs up and makes it different from wood products.

Hairbear
07-28-2012, 10:32
proper way to flush a composting toilet is to carry green leaf matter with you when you go in after you do your thing cover it with plant matter not only will noone have to look at your master peice,but the moisture and food in the plant matter creates an explosion of bacterial action.ive had one going for three years have never had to empty it.high bacterial action eliminates most of the odor.
that is what the plant matter is for it adds moisture,increases air flow ,and feeds the bacteria.

Hairbear
07-28-2012, 10:53
that is what the plant matter is for it adds moisture,increases air flow ,and feeds the bacteria.
sorry i mispoke its microbial breakdown,so its microbes your feeding

wnderer
07-28-2012, 11:12
When I was younger I worked in housekeeping at a hospital and the head janitor told me just the opposite. He said to load it where it comes off over the front because the weight of the roll will keep it from spinning off too much, and when loaded coming off closest to the wall the weight of the roll just lets it run easier. No kidding this is what I was told, I was all but scolded. (LOL)

If you load the toilet paper so that it comes over the front, the cat will paw at it and unroll the whole thing. The cat thinks this is fun. If you load it so the roll comes off closest to the wall, the roll will just spin when the cat paws at it. The cat think this is boring and pointless and goes looking for trouble elsewhere.

Pedaling Fool
07-28-2012, 13:40
The bike road races are on now.!!! Blood Dopers are the worst (http://velonews.competitor.com/2007/07/news/vinokourov-tests-positive-astana-withdraws-from-tour_12910) :)


i just dont see the logic in pumping our sewer into rivers ,and then pumping it back out and making drinking water out of it.if they post recomendations for river fish populations as being non food worthy its time to do something different.Modern sewage processing is pretty sophisticated today.
And making it into drinking water is only copying nature. The water you drink, regardless of the source, has come from crap, piss, bath water....

http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/environment/2011-03-03-1Apurewater03_CV_N.htm



i quoted you only because it was the first one i saw on topic sorry didnt try to single anyone out.You don't have to worry about offending me :confused:

Hairbear
07-28-2012, 23:25
thank you for allowing me to disagree with you without it becoming personal .our infrastructure is in decay and sewar treatment systems are old and overwhelmed by the population increase.a city that was designed in the 50s with the most modern technology of the time are drasticly under prepared for a population that has grown to four times its original design.with no money in the budgets small towns are even in worse condition and are often over looked for federal assistance.there are new designs for this coming that can perform better,but you know as well as i that in this economy they have to fix whats broken and cant afford to improve something still functioning..as far as the water comes from dung part i really dont know how to reply.i will contiue to think water comes from rain.yes we disagree on this issue ,but i bet we could find enough in common on other subjects that we could be friends.peace

Hairbear
07-28-2012, 23:31
one final question though if you were sitting in a resteraunt ,and i walked up to your table and visably stuck my hands in the back of my shorts, and scratched my rear then leaned across the table and washed my fingers in your glass would you drink it or would you be pissed?there really is no difference if the water came from a river full of sewage.

Fla Running Bear
07-30-2012, 18:15
Oh well, it looks like the good intention to talk about etiquette has turned to crap.

Drybones
07-30-2012, 18:56
one final question though if you were sitting in a resteraunt ,and i walked up to your table and visably stuck my hands in the back of my shorts, and scratched my rear then leaned across the table and washed my fingers in your glass would you drink it or would you be pissed?there really is no difference if the water came from a river full of sewage.

When I was growing up my mom frequently accused me of "being from Missouri"...and I grew up in MS...what do you think she ment?

Hairbear
07-31-2012, 05:18
im sorry if i offended anyone that was not my plan.you see what i feel and what i see affects me different than most.to me seeing things that will change the life of my grandchildren forever affect me .im not a sit in the chair and whine kind of person i try to do something about what i feel.water quality is an important part of insuring the quality of life that we have come to expect.youve watched things about third world countries and the problems they face from contaminated water.i dont know of any american that would say they would rather have it that way.i have a way of speaking from the heart and in color,that usually triggers two responces from people they either love what you say or they hate you for taking the blindfold off.sorry for stearing the thread away from what it was intended to talk about .i would not have tried to build an image in his mind that way if he had not said i wouldnt not have offended him.it had nothing to do with john gualt it had to do with water preservation.so we will add one more to the list of etiquette dont talk about the enviroment if people dont want to hear it.they may look at it like preaching,and they have a right to not want to think about it.

DavidNH
07-31-2012, 08:17
Don'ts!

I wanna second and third this one: DON'T SMOKE in or near shelters. It's rude. Most of us are out for fresh air. Don't bring pollution out there.

If for some demented reason you just have to wake up at 4:30 am be quiet and get out. I remember a shelter in southern VT where some Michigan couple woke up at like 4 am and made all sorts of noise (crinkle of plastic, rummaging through gear). worst part is.. they hadn't left by 7 am when I left.

I also want to second respecting hiker midnight. After hiking all day one is tired and goes to bed normally at dark (9 pm or so).

Don't get into long tirades about gear and how a hiker could have saved weight in his pack. He has what he has. And maybe he wants to carry that 40+ pound pack with lots of food and some creature comforts!

shelb
07-31-2012, 10:03
THESE ??



Trustworthy,
Loyal,
Helpful,
Friendly,
Courteous,
Kind,
Obedient,
Cheerful,
Thrifty,
Brave,
Clean,
and Reverent.

These are just a bunch of nice terms that are easy to memorize and batt around but they are incredibly general - - they can and do mean nearly anything to anyone.

I find that many new folks and those that are set in their ways would do good to learn, WHAT SPECIFIC things are considered rude, and WHY exactly you don't do certain things because many things in the forest setting are counterintuitive. To some, cutting down a tree with an axe and making a rock fire ring might seem "thrifty" or it might seem "brave" to sleep with your food around bears and it might seem "clean" to wash your dishes in the creek, "reverent" to record your adventure by carving something on the shelter wall, or even "friendly" to talk my ear off when I'm trying to sleep at 9:00 pm. This sort of knee-jerk response is SOO typical of those that don't have a real clue.

As a scouter, I am a firm believer in the merits of adhering to the Scout Law. However, having worked with youth and adults for many years, I know that you are correct in stating that some things need to be specifically spelled out. Many have said, "use common sense," but what is common sense to some of us is not common sense to others. Some people just don't get it until it is explained (even then, there are those who still don't understand - or care).

Driver8
07-31-2012, 11:05
If for some demented reason you just have to wake up at 4:30 am be quiet and get out.

For the record, getting up early to get to a high spot for a beautiful sunrise view would be far from demented, as I see it. The being quiet when up early, though, is spot on. Can't imagine what's in the minds of people who wouldn't be. Quite rude.

pervy_sage
08-02-2012, 09:05
For the record, getting up early to get to a high spot for a beautiful sunrise view would be far from demented, as I see it. The being quiet when up early, though, is spot on. Can't imagine what's in the minds of people who wouldn't be. Quite rude.

So early risers, you should practice your Ninja skills, that way you can also not be seen as well as not be heard. Ultimate LNT Jutsu. Where can I buy UQ (ultra-quiet) gear and food?

Gray Blazer
08-03-2012, 01:53
one final question though if you were sitting in a resteraunt ,and i walked up to your table and visably stuck my hands in the back of my shorts, and scratched my rear then leaned across the table and washed my fingers in your glass would you drink it or would you be pissed?there really is no difference if the water came from a river full of sewage.

That was you? I switched glasses when Papa D was in the bathroom.

Cookerhiker
08-03-2012, 09:43
Don'ts!...Don't get into long tirades about gear and how a hiker could have saved weight in his pack. He has what he has. And maybe he wants to carry that 40+ pound pack with lots of food and some creature comforts!

+1 on this.

atmilkman
08-03-2012, 10:22
If you load the toilet paper so that it comes over the front, the cat will paw at it and unroll the whole thing. The cat thinks this is fun. If you load it so the roll comes off closest to the wall, the roll will just spin when the cat paws at it. The cat think this is boring and pointless and goes looking for trouble elsewhere.
This was in a people/human hospital. My friend told me in the veterinary hopital they just used litter boxes and this solved the problem of the cats rolling off too much toilet paper, but created a new one in that the dogs now found themselves new little treats with crunchies in them. And, along with this came a terrible bad breath problem. No more doggie kisses.

Edie
08-03-2012, 10:55
Hike quietly, don't look at anyone, where to crap, what to wipe with and where to put it. No fires, no noise, don't fart, don't snore, keep quiet, no eye contact, don't say hello, don't smoke, don't drink spirits, AND NO DRUGS! Hike your own hike quietly of course. :D

Papa D
08-06-2012, 19:07
That was you? I switched glasses when Papa D was in the bathroom.

HA HA HA HO HO HO:datz

TOMP
11-11-2013, 16:16
Good list of course but I find that it is best to realize that when you use a shelter it is a shared area and because of that you lose the ability to control what does or doesnt happen. If you are a person that feels the need to tell ppl not to start campfires etc you probably are not going to like staying at shelters. These days unless its a monsoon I skip them entirely. HYOH.

aficion
11-11-2013, 20:27
Good list of course but I find that it is best to realize that when you use a shelter it is a shared area and because of that you lose the ability to control what does or doesnt happen. If you are a person that feels the need to tell ppl not to start campfires etc you probably are not going to like staying at shelters. These days unless its a monsoon I skip them entirely. HYOH.

If I had to sleep in a shelter, I'd just stay home. There are too many mice and people who are wound too tight.

hikerboy57
11-11-2013, 20:30
If I had to sleep in a shelter, I'd just stay home. There are too many mice and people who are wound too tight.
the mice are relaxed and confident

Wise Old Owl
11-11-2013, 20:48
only because I wasn't present. When I show up I throw them a last right party.

aficion
11-11-2013, 21:00
the mice are relaxed and confident

With good reason. They own the place.

HikerMom58
11-11-2013, 21:09
aficion.. I'm in BIG trouble. I break rule #1 on the Don't list all the time when I hike... I like to "chat-up" everyone I meet. Can you "keep up" with me? ;)

Sarcasm the elf
11-11-2013, 21:12
Yield in general to uphill hikers (unless special circumstances exist)


Step to the high side of the trail to avoid erosion


Re-reading this list. I've still never understood who came up with the "Yield to uphill hikers" thing or why people think it's some sort of rule. It takes zero effort to stop when walking uphill, when going downhill a person has to fight gravity and momentum to stop, if the person coming downhill is a trail runner, then stopping suddenly takes serious effort and could actually be dangerous. Either way I almost always yield to everyone, partially because I'm nice and partially because I'm out of shape.

"Step to the high side of the trail to avoid erosion". one exception to this: If you ever hike on multi-use trails and encounter horses or pack animals always step offtrail downhill. ​In the off chance that the animals spook they will almost always run uphill, best to be out of their way.

aficion
11-11-2013, 21:29
aficion.. I'm in BIG trouble. I break rule #1 on the Don't list all the time when I hike... I like to "chat-up" everyone I meet. Can you "keep up" with me? ;)

Judging by your recently skeered-off avatar, I probably cannot currently keep up with you in the short run.....hiking, that is. (Notice the many qualifiers.) As far as chatting....you got me beat hands down. No contest.

aficion
11-11-2013, 21:31
Re-reading this list. I've still never understood who came up with the "Yield to uphill hikers" thing or why people think it's some sort of rule. It takes zero effort to stop when walking uphill, when going downhill a person has to fight gravity and momentum to stop, if the person coming downhill is a trail runner, then stopping suddenly takes serious effort and could actually be dangerous. Either way I almost always yield to everyone, partially because I'm nice and partially because I'm out of shape.



"Step to the high side of the trail to avoid erosion". one exception to this: If you ever hike on multi-use trails and encounter horses or pack animals always step offtrail downhill. ​In the off chance that the animals spook they will almost always run uphill, best to be out of their way.

Pack critters make their own rules. You just gotta stay outta th way.

kayak karl
11-11-2013, 21:37
“Rules? Rules? We don't need no stinking rules.”.

aficion
11-11-2013, 21:48
“Rules? Rules? We don't need no stinking rules.”.

Mules don't need no stinking rules!

Capt Nat
11-12-2013, 09:22
I can settle the uphill/downhill once and for all. The coast guard has ruled that down stream/hill has the right of way as an up stream/hill vessel/hiker has more control and ability to maneuver. This is firmly chiseled into the code of federal regulations. Violate it at your peril. They have some head/privy rules you may want to check into also! :)

rocketsocks
11-12-2013, 09:35
Mules don't need no stinking rules!My mule don't follow rules:D

perdidochas
11-12-2013, 12:29
This is a real good list.

I've never heard you aren't supposed to pee in a privy.

I'm wondering why? It would seem the pee would help the rest break down. Could somebody please explain the reasoning on this one?

perdidochas
11-12-2013, 12:46
that is what the plant matter is for it adds moisture,increases air flow ,and feeds the bacteria.
How would TP not also be a carbon source? Talking plain white, no deodorizers added, no lubrication, just plain paper.

perdidochas
11-12-2013, 12:52
THESE ??



Trustworthy,
Loyal,
Helpful,
Friendly,
Courteous,
Kind,
Obedient,
Cheerful,
Thrifty,
Brave,
Clean,
and Reverent.

These are just a bunch of nice terms that are easy to memorize and batt around but they are incredibly general - - they can and do mean nearly anything to anyone.

I find that many new folks and those that are set in their ways would do good to learn, WHAT SPECIFIC things are considered rude, and WHY exactly you don't do certain things because many things in the forest setting are counterintuitive. To some, cutting down a tree with an axe and making a rock fire ring might seem "thrifty" or it might seem "brave" to sleep with your food around bears and it might seem "clean" to wash your dishes in the creek, "reverent" to record your adventure by carving something on the shelter wall, or even "friendly" to talk my ear off when I'm trying to sleep at 9:00 pm. This sort of knee-jerk response is SOO typical of those that don't have a real clue.

Scouts also follow LNT. As a scouter, my troop is taught that being quiet at night (or on the trail) is part of LNT (and of course, being courteous). Good Scouters (something I aspire to) constantly are telling the boys specific applications of the Scout law in everyday life. ALso, some of your examples, make no sense. Reverent refers to being adherent to your own and respectful of other's religious beliefs. Don't know of any religion that reveres recording your adventures on walls.

perdidochas
11-12-2013, 12:54
Re-reading this list. I've still never understood who came up with the "Yield to uphill hikers" thing or why people think it's some sort of rule. It takes zero effort to stop when walking uphill, when going downhill a person has to fight gravity and momentum to stop, if the person coming downhill is a trail runner, then stopping suddenly takes serious effort and could actually be dangerous. Either way I almost always yield to everyone, partially because I'm nice and partially because I'm out of shape.

"Step to the high side of the trail to avoid erosion". one exception to this: If you ever hike on multi-use trails and encounter horses or pack animals always step offtrail downhill. ​In the off chance that the animals spook they will almost always run uphill, best to be out of their way.

That, and as a SM who's wife was into trailriding taught, horses and other pack animals usually think of anything above them being a possible predator. Going downhill reduces that.