View Full Version : Time to fire AMC
swjohnsey
08-23-2012, 13:50
The AMC's maintenance of the AT is appalling. Their only interest seems to be their huts. When one crosses from AMC to MAMC territory the difference is immediately apparent. Time to find another club that is interested in the AT.
There was a stretch in the Whites of several miles without a single blaze. How much does white paint cost? Every downhill stretch is completely washed away to nothing but rocks and roots. Maybe some of the folks from south of the Mason-Dixon can teach them how to divert water flow off the trail.
I'm in Rangeley, ME, about 220 miles to go to Katadin.
fire them? who exactly is paying them?
http://www.outdoors.org/pdf/upload/AnnualReport_2011_FORWEB.pdf
The AMC's maintenance of the AT is appalling. Their only interest seems to be their huts. When one crosses from AMC to MAMC territory the difference is immediately apparent. Time to find another club that is interested in the AT.
There was a stretch in the Whites of several miles without a single blaze. How much does white paint cost? Every downhill stretch is completely washed away to nothing but rocks and roots. Maybe some of the folks from south of the Mason-Dixon can teach them how to divert water flow off the trail.
I'm in Rangeley, ME, about 220 miles to go to Katadin.
ahh its that time of year again, for a thru hiker to complain about the AT in the white mountains, ignoring the fact that the AT is a tiny little speck in a massive area used by thousands of people who could care less about the AT. thats the main (no pun intended) between the whites and maine. youre back in "the world revolves around the AT" land instead of a place where its just one of countless concerns.
Supreme Being
08-23-2012, 14:47
When an AT Hiker can't find those White Blazes, it turns each mile into a chore instead of a pleasure. The AMC has taken on this responsibility, which doesn't seem like an insurmountable task to accomplish. They need to do their job. Many people contribute to the AMC and maybe instead of seeking to get 500,000 kids outdoors - they need to make sure that these same kids don't get lost by adequately marking the trail.
The Kisco Kid
08-23-2012, 14:53
The AMC's maintenance of the AT is appalling. Their only interest seems to be their huts. When one crosses from AMC to MAMC territory the difference is immediately apparent. Time to find another club that is interested in the AT.
There was a stretch in the Whites of several miles without a single blaze. How much does white paint cost? Every downhill stretch is completely washed away to nothing but rocks and roots. Maybe some of the folks from south of the Mason-Dixon can teach them how to divert water flow off the trail.
I'm in Rangeley, ME, about 220 miles to go to Katadin.
Have you thought about volunteering your time on a trail maintenance crew?
AMC is worse than the Mafia. They make millions renting out hut space on Taxpayer owned property. These guys have more political power than the gun lobby and some of their tactis are as bad. They do what thay want when they want. Good luck getting them to do anything.
Might want to think that one thru swjohnsey
hikerboy57
08-23-2012, 15:05
Youll find plenty of wet trail in maine too.how would you like to help in the maintence.whining is not a solution.
Just a Hiker
08-23-2012, 15:06
The AMC's maintenance of the AT is appalling. Their only interest seems to be their huts. When one crosses from AMC to MAMC territory the difference is immediately apparent. Time to find another club that is interested in the AT.
There was a stretch in the Whites of several miles without a single blaze. How much does white paint cost? Every downhill stretch is completely washed away to nothing but rocks and roots. Maybe some of the folks from south of the Mason-Dixon can teach them how to divert water flow off the trail.
I'm in Rangeley, ME, about 220 miles to go to Katadin.
Trail maintainers in New England have different challenges than we do down here in the south, so comparing Northern -vs- Southern maintainers isn't really fair. Putting in a water bar/water diversion is a whole lot tougher in New England than it is down here in the south. Join a Trail Club when you finish the trail, then you'll see the difference. Congrats on your hike!
Chaco Taco
08-23-2012, 15:13
The AMC's maintenance of the AT is appalling. Their only interest seems to be their huts. When one crosses from AMC to MAMC territory the difference is immediately apparent. Time to find another club that is interested in the AT.
There was a stretch in the Whites of several miles without a single blaze. How much does white paint cost? Every downhill stretch is completely washed away to nothing but rocks and roots. Maybe some of the folks from south of the Mason-Dixon can teach them how to divert water flow off the trail.
I'm in Rangeley, ME, about 220 miles to go to Katadin.
Hell I think its over blazed in the Whites. The damn trail is carved out right in front of you in the rocks. Also, what sections are you talking about specifically that are washed out? Instead of whining here, you should actually contact the AMC to let them know of any wash outs. The early parts of August were excessively wet up here. Always been the policy of hiking where I have lived. In case you havent noticed, the trail isnt a road walk. Yea you may have to climb some rocks and walk over roots and yes, navigate some wash outs.There are some of the most creative and awesome stairs and ladders built up here. There is one specifically on Mt Willey, just off the AT that is almost a half mile ladder built into the side of a giant slab of Granite and you can see it from Ethan Pond. I can provide pictures if you need them. There is a huge difference in trails from south to north. The north is mostly granite, solid rock. Just figured Id point that out. I am proud to be a part of the AMC. From the times I have been out this year, I have seen a lot of trail work being done.
SCRUB HIKER
08-23-2012, 15:25
Proof that it's not just the young thru-hikers who can be whiny little (female dogs). For the record, swjohnsey, at one point or another last year I thought of almost every one of the complaints you list for NH. But for the most part I kept them to myself and tried to see the bigger picture. This thread's not making it into the WhiteBlaze Hall of Fame, that's for sure.
Chaco Taco
08-23-2012, 15:28
Proof that it's not just the young thru-hikers who can be whiny little (female dogs). For the record, swjohnsey, at one point or another last year I thought of almost every one of the complaints you list for NH. But for the most part I kept them to myself and tried to see the bigger picture. This thread's not making it into the WhiteBlaze Hall of Fame, that's for sure.
Hurricane Irene did do a significant amount of damage up here last year.
Tom Murphy
08-23-2012, 15:30
Trying to separate the two issues:
trail maintenance - The USFS and the AMC are still trying to recvoer from the aftermath of Hurricane Irene. A big backlog of work exists. Also those of us who are volunteers are limited to level 1 maintenance. I can't install a new water bar.
paint blazes - I do level 1 maintence twice a year on my small section. My first priority is clearing water bars, my second is brushing out, and the last one is painting blazes. Also blazing is not allowed in USFS wilderness areas, so that is why you didn't have any as you traveled over the Presidental Range along the Crawford Path.
Are people really relying on paint blazes to find the AT in New Hampshire? The AT is routed on along many of the most popular trails in NH. Did this guy have a map and compass with him?
Chaco Taco
08-23-2012, 15:32
Trying to separate the two issues:
trail maintenance - The USFS and the AMC are still trying to recvoer from the aftermath of Hurricane Irene. A big backlog of work exists. Also those of us who are volunteers are limited to level 1 maintenance. I can't install a new water bar.
paint blazes - I do level 1 maintence twice a year on my small section. My first priority is clearing water bars, my second is brushing out, and the last one is painting blazes. Also blazing is not allowed in USFS wilderness areas, so that is why you didn't have any as you traveled over the Presidental Range along the Crawford Path.
Are people really relying on paint blazes to find the AT in New Hampshire? The AT is routed on along many of the most popular trails in NH. Did this guy have a map and compass with him?
and some of the oldest trails in the country
SCRUB HIKER
08-23-2012, 15:39
Hurricane Irene did do a significant amount of damage up here last year.
True, but I was at the border of AMC/MATC lands--Grafton Notch and in town in Bethel--for the storm. So I got to see all the AMC trails pre-Irene. In retrospect, I really have no complaints about the AMC's trailbuilding on the AT. Having volunteered at Konnarock in VA for a summer 6 years ago, (and all that was a walk in the park compared to the Whites), I have a sense of how hard trailbuilding must be for the Whites. I'm certainly not complaining now.
BarFight
08-23-2012, 15:44
Did you even have a map with you? Because it makes "navigation" in the Whites a snap. The trail network there is massive, and it was there long before the AT was. You don't need blazes. As for the steep trails...well, plently of people love it that way, and the gnarlier the better. Ever tried to do trail maitenence when you're down to the bedrock? Only way to fix it is to make a new trail, and what a nightmare that would be. You have it easy down south.
hikerboy57
08-23-2012, 15:45
What the amc and the matc have constructef in the whites and maine is nothing short of miraculous.
I also am a proud member of both.
When an AT Hiker can't find those White Blazes, it turns each mile into a chore instead of a pleasure. The AMC has taken on this responsibility, which doesn't seem like an insurmountable task to accomplish. They need to do their job. Many people contribute to the AMC and maybe instead of seeking to get 500,000 kids outdoors - they need to make sure that these same kids don't get lost by adequately marking the trail.
any and if the AT were the only trail through the whites, or even the reason why most hikers went hiking in the whites, i'd tend to agree. it is not. not even close, something very few of us around here seem to appreciate in the least.
theres another thread around here somewhere about the massive crowds of people who are out hiking in the whites on most days this time of year. care to wager how many of them are there actively hiking the AT, either in sections or as thrus? if it was 2% i'd be shocked.
hikerboy57
08-23-2012, 15:52
I have found it close to impossible to get lost on the at unless you're in a white out
Chaco Taco
08-23-2012, 15:52
Also proud member of AMC. I agree with barfight the south has it much easier when it comes to trail work but not taking away fro
m either crews and vols. They are the ones doing a thankless job as shown by the op
Pedaling Fool
08-23-2012, 15:56
The AMC's maintenance of the AT is appalling. Their only interest seems to be their huts. When one crosses from AMC to MAMC territory the difference is immediately apparent. Time to find another club that is interested in the AT.
There was a stretch in the Whites of several miles without a single blaze. How much does white paint cost? Every downhill stretch is completely washed away to nothing but rocks and roots. Maybe some of the folks from south of the Mason-Dixon can teach them how to divert water flow off the trail.
I'm in Rangeley, ME, about 220 miles to go to Katadin.I've done my fair share of cursing all the trail clubs, the ATC, and the world in general, while on the trail, but usually I'm over it by the time I get to town
:D ;)
coheterojo
08-23-2012, 15:58
Jeez I hiked it twice and only enjoyed every second of it. Not enough white blazes? Give me a break!
Kerosene
08-23-2012, 16:07
I will get to experience the MATC section next month as I continue north from Pinkham Notch. I traversed most of New Hampshire in September 2006. I found the trails themselves to be well constructed, albeit remarkably steep and rugged at times although there seem to be few other options.
On the other hand, I cannot agree with those of you who think that the pathway is sufficiently blazed and "all you need is a map". I had a map, guidebook, and some foreknowledge. I never quite lost my way, but I was a might unsure for long stretches. It wouldn't be that big a deal if there wasn't such a massive maze of trails through the Whites -- it was clear that I was on an established trail but it wasn't at all obvious that it was the trail I wanted to be on.
Now, to be fair, I've encountered other poorly blazed sections south of the AT (as well as a number of over-blazed sections). I'd prefer some level of consistency and objectivity instead of what appears to be unattentiveness or perhaps obstinance. It's a great experience in any case.
As for "blazing is not allowed in USFS wilderness areas"...says who?! I won't claim to be an expert, but this doesn't appear to be an issue in any other USFS wilderness area I've hiked through.
One suggestion would be to have AMC deputize a dedicated AT blazing volunteer crew, but someone would have to get it on their priority list and my take is that hikers familiar with the area (who would be the volunteers) don't think there is an issue. (Kind of like a software company ignoring a class of user because their perceptions don't fit with the company's view of reality.)
I'm not going to hold my breath on this one...
I actually like hiking in the wilderness areas better then the AT. The less well travelled path is better in my mind. Try going to shining rock and hiking the Little East Fork Trail from the Daniel Boone BSA camp to Shining Rock Gap. The path was maybe 10" wide with dead-fall everywhere.
FarmerChef
08-23-2012, 16:10
+1 for trail crews. The ONLY way the trail stays in hikeable condition let alone the paved, escalator-riddled dream path many wish for (even myself from time to time ;) ) is for volunteers to donate their time and muscle. It is no simple task and after an incredible storm like Irene tears through a region, dumping thousands if not millions of gallons of water onto trails and into creeks, ponds, and rivers it is only reasonable to assume there is going to be tremendous damage and a giant backlog of work to be done to restore or renovate the trail. My family and I were just up in CT, MA and the bottom tip of VT this past week and though we did grumble from time to time at certain rocky portions or dramatic, straight downhill plunges off the side of mountains, we also saw evidence of fresh work that was only days old. It reminded us of all the hard work done and made us again thankful for all those volunteer efforts.
hikerboy57
08-23-2012, 16:11
One suggestion would be for the op to bring a bucket of white paint and brush
AMC is worse than the Mafia. They make millions renting out hut space on Taxpayer owned property. These guys have more political power than the gun lobby and some of their tactis are as bad. They do what thay want when they want. Good luck getting them to do anything.
Hey, I resent that! I happen to support the gun lobby! ;)
On the other hand, I cannot agree with those of you who think that the pathway is sufficiently blazed and "all you need is a map". I had a map, guidebook, and some foreknowledge. I never quite lost my way, but I was a might unsure for long stretches. It wouldn't be that big a deal if there wasn't such a massive maze of trails through the Whites -- it was clear that I was on an established trail but it wasn't at all obvious that it was the trail I wanted to be on.
and i still say that massive maze of trails you refer to is exactly why the AT is not as blazed as some seem to think it should be. this conclusion is based on 2 reasons 1) blazing all the trails in the whites in a way that which they would serve all hikers (not just AT hikers) well is highly impractical 2) in the grand scheme of things the AT does not warrant better treatment than any of the other trails in the whties and while increasing the blazing on the AT might be of benefit to the small percentage of people who are in the whites to hike the AT, it would be detrimental to other hikers whoa re there to hike say the crawford path or the franconia ridge trail, which is at LEAST as common as hiking the AT, which really isnt even a trail in the whites. imagine trying to hike the crawford path if just the AT portion of it was blazed.... it would cause more confusion and lost hikers than it would solve. not even close to being a contest.
Pedaling Fool
08-23-2012, 16:21
I will get to experience the MATC section next month as I continue north from Pinkham Notch. I traversed most of New Hampshire in September 2006. I found the trails themselves to be well constructed, albeit remarkably steep and rugged at times although there seem to be few other options.
On the other hand, I cannot agree with those of you who think that the pathway is sufficiently blazed and "all you need is a map". I had a map, guidebook, and some foreknowledge. I never quite lost my way, but I was a might unsure for long stretches. It wouldn't be that big a deal if there wasn't such a massive maze of trails through the Whites -- it was clear that I was on an established trail but it wasn't at all obvious that it was the trail I wanted to be on.
Now, to be fair, I've encountered other poorly blazed sections south of the AT (as well as a number of over-blazed sections). I'd prefer some level of consistency and objectivity instead of what appears to be unattentiveness or perhaps obstinance. It's a great experience in any case.I've had exactly the same experience through the Whites, but I've also been told I'm an idiot by some who disagree, which I don't argue with but I don't see what bearing that has on this issue :D
BTW, to all you sensitive types, save the lecturing; I don't care about the lack of blazing through the Whites, just an observation.
kayak karl
08-23-2012, 16:28
One suggestion would be for the op to bring a bucket of white paint and brush
don't give anyone any stupid ideas. you can't just go out and start blazing.
hikerboy57
08-23-2012, 16:41
Your right kk, but if you are not part of the solution well then.....
don't give anyone any stupid ideas. you can't just go out and start blazing.The USFS may play by a different set of rules, but I believe AMC trail adopters are given explicit instruction NOT to paint any blazes in designated Wilderness areas or above treeline. Others can speak more authoritatively on that than me. Who is responsible for maintaining the section above treelike over the Presidentials anyway? Are we sure about that? Was that the section the OP had a problem with?
Moose2001
08-23-2012, 17:14
The AMC's maintenance of the AT is appalling. Their only interest seems to be their huts. When one crosses from AMC to MAMC territory the difference is immediately apparent. Time to find another club that is interested in the AT.
There was a stretch in the Whites of several miles without a single blaze. How much does white paint cost? Every downhill stretch is completely washed away to nothing but rocks and roots. Maybe some of the folks from south of the Mason-Dixon can teach them how to divert water flow off the trail.
I'm in Rangeley, ME, about 220 miles to go to Katadin.
Ohhhh, please! The entire AT is overblazed. I agree with the others. You should try to do some trail maintenance and see just how difficult it is. It's so tiring to hear people like you do nothing but bitch about the thousands of hours volunteers put in to maintain the AT. Get over yourself. A "grown" man like you should know better.
This is what the ATC say's you should see for blazing.Distance between blazes varies. In some areas, blazes are almost always within sight; in areas managed as wilderness you may encounter only four or five per mile. If you have gone a quarter-mile without seeing a blaze, stop. Retrace your steps until you locate a blaze. Then, check to make sure you haven't missed a turn. Often a glance backwards will reveal blazes meant for hikers traveling in the opposite direction. Volunteer trail maintainers regularly relocate small sections of the path around hazards or undesirable features or off private property. When your map or guidebook indicates one route, and the blazes show another, follow the blazes.
hikerboy57
08-23-2012, 18:13
it can be a bit confusing above treeline in the whites, as all the AT protions have different names. but thru hiking the whites takes some homework and planning, just to figure out where to camp, so i would simply suggest a visit to the WMG or supplement your AT maps with maps showing all the connecting trails. i agree with those that say there are already enough blazes, but concede that if you just expected to follow white blazes, it can be confusing.
an any event i met an MATC crew moving boulders and building a new bog bridge in maine 2 weeks ago, busting their butts in the heat and bugs, and was glad i was a member. the network of trails in the whites is pretty large, and a lot of ground to cover for any maintenance. its a tough job, so help out, contribute time or money or both. but dont just gripe.everyone knows the whites and maine are difficult, i just think many are surprised to find out just how difficult when they get there. from what i know, theres nothing down south comparable in difficulty.
if you fire the maintainers, who will do it?
Chaco Taco
08-23-2012, 18:59
it can be a bit confusing above treeline in the whites, as all the AT protions have different names. but thru hiking the whites takes some homework and planning, just to figure out where to camp, so i would simply suggest a visit to the WMG or supplement your AT maps with maps showing all the connecting trails. i agree with those that say there are already enough blazes, but concede that if you just expected to follow white blazes, it can be confusing.
an any event i met an MATC crew moving boulders and building a new bog bridge in maine 2 weeks ago, busting their butts in the heat and bugs, and was glad i was a member. the network of trails in the whites is pretty large, and a lot of ground to cover for any maintenance. its a tough job, so help out, contribute time or money or both. but dont just gripe.everyone knows the whites and maine are difficult, i just think many are surprised to find out just how difficult when they get there. from what i know, theres nothing down south comparable in difficulty.
if you fire the maintainers, who will do it?
They do a pretty good job of marking just before treeline. I know little haystack has a couple right when you come out and when you drop off at Garfield. I hardly ever look for blazes because of the trail being cut right into the woods. Once you get up or like the Presi's just follow the cairns, those things are huge and there are signs all along the ridge.
HeartFire
08-23-2012, 19:04
I just got finished with the presidential range. This was my first time in the Whites. Personally (and this is JUST my personal feeling) the ATC should move the Appalachian Trail. Climbing Madison was not HIKING it is boulder hoping, mountain climbing and scared the begeeberz out of me. I want to HIKE not mountain climb. I will not finish the AT because I will not go back to the Whites. There are too many good hiking trails to hike so that I don't have to boulder hop and face death with every step.
I just got finished with the presidential range. This was my first time in the Whites. Personally (and this is JUST my personal feeling) the ATC should move the Appalachian Trail. Climbing Madison was not HIKING it is boulder hoping, mountain climbing and scared the begeeberz out of me. I want to HIKE not mountain climb. I will not finish the AT because I will not go back to the Whites. There are too many good hiking trails to hike so that I don't have to boulder hop and face death with every step.
word of advice- stay off of kinsman ridge, north carter mtn, mt garfield and the mahoosuc range. madison is comparatively easy, though i do get what you mean. i enjoyed all of the whites once but i really don't know how much enthusiasm i have for the idea of ever rehiring any of it.
jakedatc
08-23-2012, 19:11
awww.. pobre cita.. did the trail get too steep for you? that's sad that after 1500 miles you're not in shape yet.. maybe too many cheeseburger trail feeds?
definitely not sure what section wasn't marked enough . even in the Presi's with cairns only have all the trail junctions have very nice signs.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v115/Socjake/White%20Mountains/IMG_0329.jpg
Hell, I loved The Whites because it is more than just strolling. Many of the trail in the Whites pre-date the AT by quite a few years or even decades in some cases. A little class 2 scrambling is fun. :)
As for not enough blazes. This now-Western hiker asks about what are these blazes you speak of? ;)
Wise Old Owl
08-23-2012, 19:16
Moldy - As a group we were talking about the cost of staying in the huts and the "Doing the dishes" a few weeks ago. It was cause for me to look up a lot of information about the good service that the AMC does in "locking up land adjacent to the AT" for future generations. The Huts operate at a slight loss of income and the AMC struggles for finding good financial donors, and young people to donate time.
I wish I could ask you to spend a little time looking at their website and see for yourself.
Your post would be offensive to the hard working trail maintainers and donating members of AMC. :mad:
jakedatc
08-23-2012, 19:24
I just got finished with the presidential range. This was my first time in the Whites. Personally (and this is JUST my personal feeling) the ATC should move the Appalachian Trail. Climbing Madison was not HIKING it is boulder hoping, mountain climbing and scared the begeeberz out of me. I want to HIKE not mountain climb. I will not finish the AT because I will not go back to the Whites. There are too many good hiking trails to hike so that I don't have to boulder hop and face death with every step.
LOL imagine that all hiking trails aren't paved sidewalks with snack machines along the way.. good thing it didn't rain or snow on you or you might have had a reason to be scared. There is NOTHING on Mt Madison that is "risking death"
real rock climbing... (and still not facing death at every move)
17136
Blissful
08-23-2012, 19:51
fire them? who exactly is paying them?
Bingo.
All I can say is, if you don't like it, get out there and help out. I am the utmost respect for the volounteers as a "paid" person for PATC. I admire them greatly.
As far as blazing, that's what good ol maps are for... I did see a lack of blazing SOBO on the Franconia Ridge but had no issues. Going through the WHites a second time, I thoroughly enjoyed it. Except work for stay. I got no sleep.
But it doesn't surprise me that NOBOs have an attitude. I have seen that attitude all season in MD from many (not all of course. Some were great). Most want things done or given to them to make their life easier. They think they deserve it. It's a "gimme" attitude. It's sad.
jakedatc
08-23-2012, 19:58
grrr.. stupid no edit button.
I didn't mean to come off that harsh.
Judy, I know it was your summer vacation so I hope you at least enjoyed some of of the Whites, they can be difficult but the views are worth the effort I think. There are other areas in the Whites that are not as exposed as Madison (though others that are more so). Having done 30 of the 48 4000'ers so far i've gone up stuff that requires basic rock climbing and others that small kids can do easily.
Blissful
08-23-2012, 20:01
I just got finished with the presidential range. This was my first time in the Whites. Personally (and this is JUST my personal feeling) the ATC should move the Appalachian Trail. Climbing Madison was not HIKING it is boulder hoping, mountain climbing and scared the begeeberz out of me. I want to HIKE not mountain climb. I will not finish the AT because I will not go back to the Whites. There are too many good hiking trails to hike so that I don't have to boulder hop and face death with every step.
Now that you have seen the fear and let it out of your system (and believe me, I faced that as a NOBO when I nearly ditched my pack over a precipice on North Carter)- do it again. Maybe even SOBO. Guarantee it will be a different experience. One learns how to do the boulders and rocks. Its a puzzle to figure out. But it can be done and done safely and with enjoyment. Really. I learned to take my frustration and allow it to help me conquer the trail. I refused to let it conquer me. :)
hikerboy57
08-23-2012, 20:27
LOL imagine that all hiking trails aren't paved sidewalks with snack machines along the way.. good thing it didn't rain or snow on you or you might have had a reason to be scared. There is NOTHING on Mt Madison that is "risking death"
real rock climbing... (and still not facing death at every move)
17136 if thatst's high exposure it's a great climb,a5.4that makes you feel like you're 1000 feet off the deck.the gunks have great low difficult routes with outstanding exposure. and the rock is awesome!
great hiking area too.
sorry for the drift.
jakedatc
08-23-2012, 20:38
Correct.. 5.6 tho ;) now i'm off to NH to sport climb.. and do 2 4000'ers for a day hike for the weekend. you guys hold down the fort.
I just did the whites a few weeks ago - some more blazes would have been nice but I found my way - - got turned around walking to to top of Zealand by mistake but it was only .1. I did miss the turn at Osgood Tent Site heading toward Pinkham Notch and would suggest that the DOC did mark the trail better than the AMC. The Huts probably have their place though - there are plenty of issues ahead of trashing the AMC - I wouldn't pay to stay in a hut though; it's not my style - I'm more of a tent site guy in the whites. Madison Hut did have some pretty good tomato soup for lunch though - -bought for me by a really nice guest.
hikerboy57
08-23-2012, 20:44
Correct.. 5.6 tho ;) now i'm off to NH to sport climb.. and do 2 4000'ers for a day hike for the weekend. you guys hold down the fort.
it's been a while I'm getting old. it's been over 2 years since I tied in.
quilteresq
08-23-2012, 21:27
Hurricane Irene did do a significant amount of damage up here last year.
I bought a new AMC guide this year, and just about every trail description begins with the caveat: Irene did major damage to the trail, check with rangers before starting out. I think it's more Irene related than anything else - it will get better if we don't have a storm like THAT soon!
I would have gladly paid for a tent site but they were always full. That's what I get for hiking all day. I stealthed every night except the night I stayed Lake of the Clouds.
From Lake of the Clouds to Madison was a challenge in rain and about 50 mph winds. It sure is challenging to hop wet rocks with the wind blowing you off balance! Still I wouldn't have wanted the trail to go anywhere else. The views are breathtaking when the weather cooperates!
Snowleopard
08-23-2012, 21:36
Steep, rocky, climbing over boulders and roots, all so true in the Whites. Nobody has mentioned yet that the AMC has not done anything about the atrocious weather and black flies.
The obvious solution is to reroute the NH section of the AT to Florida. :)
ok I HAVE to chime in here. It's all we need some guy from the deep south, complaining about trail maintenance and lack of blazes on the AT in the whites.
Sir you need to think before you post such nonsense. First.. trail conditions are only any better in Maine because, once north of the whites, you don't have gazillions of people on the trails and causing erosion. Have you ever hiked in a really heavy rain on steep slopes? water bars don't do any good anymore.. the stream of water just washes over them. Plus we had Tropical Storm Irene last here that gave something like a half foot of rain in two days. Lots of erosion.
The last thing we want is white blazes on every other tree. Unlike Texas.. we have designated wildernesses up here. trails can't be overly manicured.
finally.. trail maintenance is almost entirely done by volunteers. Much of it is extremely hard work (I know.. I did it for a week in Baxter State Park). it's ok to grumble to yourself.. but don't go publicly dissing the AMC about it. And of course the trails to the huts will be better marked. They get a lot more traffic. You do the maintenance on the well traveled trails first! Also.. There is NO Part of the AT that gets the traffic that the whites do.
Now for Heart Fire: move the AT off of Mount Madison.. or any of the other Presidential peaks? that's the single dumbest idea I've ever heard/read on whiteblaze. The AT is a mountain foot path designed to go over summits. The Presidentials are perhaps the most famous peaks in the entire range. get used to it, the whites aren't the walk in the park the AT is down south. Maybe you should just fine yourself a new sport!
Chaco Taco
08-23-2012, 21:57
ok I HAVE to chime in here. It's all we need some guy from the deep south, complaining about trail maintenance and lack of blazes on the AT in the whites.
Sir you need to think before you post such nonsense. First.. trail conditions are only any better in Maine because, once north of the whites, you don't have gazillions of people on the trails and causing erosion. Have you ever hiked in a really heavy rain on steep slopes? water bars don't do any good anymore.. the stream of water just washes over them. Plus we had Tropical Storm Irene last here that gave something like a half foot of rain in two days. Lots of erosion.
The last thing we want is white blazes on every other tree. Unlike Texas.. we have designated wildernesses up here. trails can't be overly manicured.
finally.. trail maintenance is almost entirely done by volunteers. Much of it is extremely hard work (I know.. I did it for a week in Baxter State Park). it's ok to grumble to yourself.. but don't go publicly dissing the AMC about it. And of course the trails to the huts will be better marked. They get a lot more traffic. You do the maintenance on the well traveled trails first! Also.. There is NO Part of the AT that gets the traffic that the whites do.
Now for Heart Fire: move the AT off of Mount Madison.. or any of the other Presidential peaks? that's the single dumbest idea I've ever heard/read on whiteblaze. The AT is a mountain foot path designed to go over summits. The Presidentials are perhaps the most famous peaks in the entire range. get used to it, the whites aren't the walk in the park the AT is down south. Maybe you should just fine yourself a new sport!
What he said :-? and Im a southerner
the amc's maintenance of the at is appalling. Their only interest seems to be their huts. When one crosses from amc to mamc territory the difference is immediately apparent. Time to find another club that is interested in the at.
There was a stretch in the whites of several miles without a single blaze. How much does white paint cost? Every downhill stretch is completely washed away to nothing but rocks and roots. Maybe some of the folks from south of the mason-dixon can teach them how to divert water flow off the trail.
I'm in rangeley, me, about 220 miles to go to katadin.
lol!!!!!!!!
As for "blazing is not allowed in USFS wilderness areas"...says who?! I won't claim to be an expert, but this doesn't appear to be an issue in any other USFS wilderness area I've hiked through.
Blazing of trails is definitely not permitted in the Great Gulf, Dry River and Pemigewasset Wilderness areas in the Whites. That rule may be specific to those areas, I'm not sure, but I've read in the AMC White Mountain Guide and, I think, at the USFS White Mountain website about this prohibition on blazing of trails in these areas. I think it's also the case in the wilderness area on the southeastern side of the Carter Range, the name of which escapes me at the moment.
There are White Blazes on the Gulfside-THC-Crawford Path stretch from the Jewell Trail to the Monroe Loop, which I have hiked. Not sure about the blazing on the rest of the A.T. routing in the Presidentials. If you have good maps, know how to read them and indeed do consult them, and know how to orient in terrain, skills which most people who have hiked 1800+ miles will have, though doubtless it can be an issue for some, you should be able to navigate the well-traveled A.T. routes in the Whites without much trouble, whether blazed or not.
That being said, I have a friend who has hiked the whole A.T. once and most of it a second time who recently got turned around at a notoriously confusing intersection near the Osgood Tentsite in the unblazed stretch in the Great Gulf Wilderness. Cost him and his hiking partner about three miles and an hour's hiking, myself as well as their shuttle. Happens to the best of us now and then.
Feral Bill
08-23-2012, 22:36
I have found it close to impossible to get lost on the at unless you're in a white out In which case white blazes (or anything else) would be beyond useless.
I just got finished with the presidential range. This was my first time in the Whites. Personally (and this is JUST my personal feeling) the ATC should move the Appalachian Trail. Climbing Madison was not HIKING it is boulder hoping, mountain climbing ...
Personally, I think they should relocate the A.T. in the Presidentials to go over EVERY summit, including Clay. Eisenhower Loop, Monroe Loop, Clay Loop, Jefferson Loop and, I forget the name of the route, but the route from Thunderstorm Junction to Adams summit and then down around and past Star Lake to the hut. Makes it harder for thru-hikers, yes, but c'mon, it's amazing territory - take in all the high points.
I delight in how difficult the Whites are. Love the challenge, love the views, love the risk, love how it kicks my butt, expands my boundaries, tests my concentration. Who needs easy? Give me hard and beautiful and exciting and wondrous. Let's live a little!
One of the great days of my life so far: 17137
Another: 17138
Another: 17139
All these made possible by the tireless hard work by volunteers who love, build and maintain the great White Mountain trail system, of which the A.T. is a small but important part. My hat's off to them all.
Sarcasm the elf
08-23-2012, 22:56
Lack of maintenance? Do you know why the trail looked like after Hurricane Irene hit last year?
DaSchwartz
08-23-2012, 22:57
This is why the AMC should be removed.. Their own 990 tax filing
http://dynamodata.fdncenter.org/990_pdf_archive/046/046001677/046001677_201012_990.pdf
Andrew Felender - president of the AMC pays himself $300,000 a year in salary.. At least six others pull down over $100,000 a year.
Out of $20,000,000 in revenue, $10,000,000 goes toward salaries... Good if you are a for-profit company, bad for a non-profit
Wise Old Owl
08-23-2012, 23:06
If you want the best and the brightest to do the work and "stick it out" long term that's right in line for a lobbyist and advocate for conservancy...
Sarcasm the elf
08-23-2012, 23:06
This is why the AMC should be removed.. Their own 990 tax filing
http://dynamodata.fdncenter.org/990_pdf_archive/046/046001677/046001677_201012_990.pdf
Andrew Felender - president of the AMC pays himself $300,000 a year in salary.. At least six others pull down over $100,000 a year.
Out of $20,000,000 in revenue, $10,000,000 goes toward salaries... Good if you are a for-profit company, bad for a non-profit
While I understand what you are saying, the salaries are a pittance compared to similarly sized companies based in Boston. The AMC has 100,000 members and manages 16,000 volunteers. If it were a similarly sized company based in the Boston area the CEO and upper managers would each make substantially more than $300k
This is why the AMC should be removed.. Their own 990 tax filing
http://dynamodata.fdncenter.org/990_pdf_archive/046/046001677/046001677_201012_990.pdf
Andrew Felender - president of the AMC pays himself $300,000 a year in salary.. At least six others pull down over $100,000 a year.
Out of $20,000,000 in revenue, $10,000,000 goes toward salaries... Good if you are a for-profit company, bad for a non-profit
While I understand what you are saying, the salaries are a pittance compared to similarly sorgan impatiens based in Boston. The AMC has 100,000 members and manages 16,000 volunteers. If it were a similarly sized company based in the Boston area the CEO and upper managers would each make substantially more than $300k
They are underpaid compared to United Way management.
hikerboy57
08-23-2012, 23:10
6 figure salaries arent unusal for lobbiests,which is only a part of what the amc does,that still left 10 mil for education,land purchases construction,etc.the officers are elected.and they do a good job.if you can repla e the amc as well as its entire membership,i would suggest you get started on your plan.who do you think is doing all the work?
fiddlehead
08-23-2012, 23:51
It seems fairly obvious that the OP is a first time hiker in New England.
Lots of rocks for sure.
Many places in CA or CO have more.
Obviously Texas doesn't.
Maybe you should just stay in Texas next trip, aye?
I grew up near the trail in PA near Port Clinton and hiked the local trails many times before setting out on my first thru.
I was a bit surprised at the lack of rocks when I got to GA and didn't understand till later that it's mainly "north of the mason dixon line" that has the granite rock fields that I grew up on.
I actually love rock hopping these boulder fields.
Maine is my favorite state for hiking on the AT.
New Hampshire and the whites would be 2nd.
I hiked in Texas once. It was a lot of flat, treeless, hot, hiking and not really my style.
I didn't go back.
Priorities are everything!
I hiked in Texas once. It was a lot of flat, treeless, hot, hiking and not really my style.
I didn't go back.
I'd bet if you get out to Big Bend country and westward there's some very pretty desert and mountain country hiking in Texas. I did a hike with my sister back in '97 in the Hill Country west of Austin, and it was very pretty. No need to knock some Texas just because some random Texan whines about the mean rocks and "incompetent" trail maintainers of New Hampster. Just because we have more rocks to throw, it doesn't mean we should. ...
yellowsirocco
08-24-2012, 03:15
This is why the AMC should be removed.. Their own 990 tax filing
http://dynamodata.fdncenter.org/990_pdf_archive/046/046001677/046001677_201012_990.pdf
Andrew Felender - president of the AMC pays himself $300,000 a year in salary.. At least six others pull down over $100,000 a year.
Out of $20,000,000 in revenue, $10,000,000 goes toward salaries... Good if you are a for-profit company, bad for a non-profit
What would you rather them spend the money on? Do you want more shelters? Would you rather the money go towards building more huts? If they are not spending it on salaries of the people taking care of the mountains, then they would be spending it on building more stuff.
Tharwood
08-24-2012, 06:37
Grab a Rake and a Shovel and have at it..
fredmugs
08-24-2012, 07:33
This is a perspective issue. You hike the trail and get used to constantly seeing a blaze in front of you and then suddenly they are gone. You just need to pay a little more attention in the whites.
fiddlehead
08-24-2012, 07:52
I'd bet if you get out to Big Bend country and westward there's some very pretty desert and mountain country hiking in Texas. I did a hike with my sister back in '97 in the Hill Country west of Austin, and it was very pretty. No need to knock some Texas just because some random Texan whines about the mean rocks and "incompetent" trail maintainers of New Hampster. Just because we have more rocks to throw, it doesn't mean we should. ...
My point was that this guy was probably expecting New Hampshire to be more like Texas and was a bit disappointed when it wasn't.
To me (growing up boulder-hopping), I'll take NH mountains before Big Bend country, given the choice although I've learned to like variety in hiking.
And yes, I have tried both.
hikerboy57
08-24-2012, 07:56
the op was probably disappointed there arent a many hiker feeds in the northeast as in the south.
(although the trail magic is still there, its a biit more arbitrary, which makes it all the more special when it happens). it seems to me a simple entitlement issue, as usual.
who ever said it was easy?
I just got finished with the presidential range. This was my first time in the Whites. Personally (and this is JUST my personal feeling) the ATC should move the Appalachian Trail. Climbing Madison was not HIKING it is boulder hoping, mountain climbing and scared the begeeberz out of me. I want to HIKE not mountain climb. I will not finish the AT because I will not go back to the Whites. There are too many good hiking trails to hike so that I don't have to boulder hop and face death with every step.
Just curious- what route? It all depends on what sort of walking you grow used to...
word of advice- stay off of kinsman ridge, north carter mtn, mt garfield and the mahoosuc range. madison is comparatively easy, though i do get what you mean. i enjoyed all of the whites once but i really don't know how much enthusiasm i have for the idea of ever rehiring any of it.
There are a couple hinky ways up to Madison.:) Not everyone does the Valley Way.
I walked on some dirt the other day. It was soft.:)
Just curious- what route? It all depends on what sort of walking you grow used to...
There are a couple hinky ways up to Madison.:) Not everyone does the Valley Way.
I walked on some dirt the other day. It was soft.:)
i felt safe in assuming the poster was talking about following the AT along the ridgeline and up and over madison, which is the only thing ive ever done.
HeartFire
08-24-2012, 10:59
When I was in the Whites, it was a gorgeous weekend, absolutely perfect weather, and I was so totally amazed at the number of hikers out on the trails, there were hundreds of people out - small children (one dad with a 4yo, 6yo and 8yo boys) everyone seemed well equipped and having a good time. I was thrilled to see so many people out, and, there are so many trails in the Whites, and the huts were very impressive. It changed my attitude about the fees they charge for the huts. I stayed in the dungeon at Lake of the Clouds, The crew, works their tails off non stop, I got a nice warm bowl of soup which was delicious. I'm not sure I would want to stay at the huts often, it was kind of a zoo, or summer camp atmosphere, but for what the AMC does in the Whites, it's pretty amazing.
For me personally, I'll stick to hiking in places like the GSMNP where I've hiked nearly all the trails (I"ve hiked about 1500 miles in the park) or even the JMT where you are above treeline but still on a real trail. I will stick to the South, the West, the North, even the East and overseas, I just wont' do the Whites. HYOH, life is way too short to do things you don't like.
Lion King
08-24-2012, 11:00
When the hell is someone going to supply helicopter service between huts???? Thats what I want to know!
I mean when I go for a hike in the white mtns, I dont want to hike, I want to be air lifted from place to place so I can more enjoy the scenery....Jesus, whats a brother got to do to Skyblaze in this damn state!!!!!!!!?!!?!?!?!?!?:p
Sarcasm the elf
08-24-2012, 11:10
When the hell is someone going to supply helicopter service between huts???? Thats what I want to know!I mean when I go for a hike in the white mtns, I dont want to hike, I want to be air lifted from place to place so I can more enjoy the scenery....Jesus, whats a brother got to do to Skyblaze in this damn state!!!!!!!!?!!?!?!?!?!?:p
The whites are serious hiking, nothing like that level graded well marked American Discovery Trail ;-)
Fire the AMC???
AMC stands for?? Always Meeting Club or the Appachian Money Collectors.
FWIW, I didn't like hiking in the Whites and likely won't ever hike there again either but I didn't have any navigational problems. The only time I a bit concerned was going up Moosilake (sp?) and didn't see a blaze in forever but I saw a sign pointing towards the summit and I knew the AT went over the top so I figured if I wasn't on the AT I'd figure it out when I got up top. If I recall, when I hit the summit there were blazes on or near the cairns and I learned I had been going the right way.
Beautiful, beautiful country - just too many rocks for me. Love my southern Apps!
DaSchwartz
08-24-2012, 13:31
When the hell is someone going to supply helicopter service between huts???? T
To bring up that fact, the AMC spends over $100,000 a year for helicopter services
They are underpaid compared to United Way management.
The United Way only spends about 20 percent of their revenue on salaries. The AMC spends 50 percent. Take away your biased for hiking and 50 percent is considered to be a wasteful and scrooge charity by other means.
And that's just the reported compensation. Many other compensations aren't included, like automobiles, vocations, personal chefs, and other perks.
So remember, everytime you volunteer with the AMC, the leaders of the AMC are pocketing cash off of it.
Avoid giving them a dime and a moment of your time. Invest your time in legitimate trail organizations like the PATC, who pay their leaders 1/3rd of the salary of the AMC.
DaSchwartz
08-24-2012, 13:35
And by the way, the Georgia Appalachian Club does pay a dime in salary to anyone. All volunteer on every level. Yet they do one heck of a job maintaining the trail in Georgia.
To bring up that fact, the AMC spends over $100,000 a year for helicopter services
[/COLOR]
The United Way only spends about 20 percent of their revenue on salaries. The AMC spends 50 percent. Take away your biased for hiking and 50 percent is considered to be a wasteful and scrooge charity by other means.
And that's just the reported compensation. Many other compensations aren't included, like automobiles, vocations, personal chefs, and other perks.
So remember, everytime you volunteer with the AMC, the leaders of the AMC are pocketing cash off of it.
Avoid giving them a dime and a moment of your time. Invest your time in legitimate trail organizations like the PATC, who pay their leaders 1/3rd of the salary of the AMC.
Gloria King was being paid $1.2 million on $45 million of revenue in the coastal carolinas United Way (2.66% of revenue)
AMC CEO $300k on $20 million of revenue (1.5% of revenue)
A non-profit like AMC is very labor intensive
A non-profit like United Way which distributes revenue to other charities is not labor intensive
WingedMonkey
08-24-2012, 14:03
Gloria King was being paid $1.2 million on $45 million of revenue in the coastal carolinas United Way (2.66% of revenue
Gloria Pace King was a rip off CEO for United Way (in North Carolina). That happened in 2007(in North Carolina). Part of the scam was it included $822,000 in retirement contributions. People should see it for the scam it was, the board should have seen it for the scam it was.
I haven't studied the ATC's bottom line (I don't contribute, it ain't my business) but don't think it is really fair to compare an over paid rip off to other non-profits.
They are underpaid compared to United Way management.
Gloria Pace King was a rip off CEO for United Way (in North Carolina). That happened in 2007(in North Carolina). Part of the scam was it included $822,000 in retirement contributions. People should see it for the scam it was, the board should have seen it for the scam it was.
I haven't studied the ATC's bottom line (I don't contribute, it ain't my business) but don't think it is really fair to compare an over paid rip off to other non-profits.
She is not the only offender in the United Way. They frequently come up in the top 5 most overpaid charity organizations. Google Brian Gallagher.
The third worst offender was again for the 7th time was, Brian Gallagher, President of the United Way receives a $375,000 base salary (U.S. funds), plus so many numerous expense benefits it's hard to keep track as to what it is all worth, including a fully paid lifetime membership for 2 golf courses (1 in Canada, and 1 in the U.S.A.), 2 luxury vehicles, a yacht club membership, 3 major company gold credit cards for his personal expenses...and so on. This equates to about $0.51 per dollar of income goes to charity causes.
Brian Gallagher is still President and CEO of United Way, and currently earns $1,037,140 a year, according to a December 2010 report from the American Institute of Philanthropy.
atmilkman
08-24-2012, 14:30
She is not the only offender in the United Way. They frequently come up in the top 5 most overpaid charity organizations. Google Brian Gallagher.
The third worst offender was again for the 7th time was, Brian Gallagher, President of the United Way receives a $375,000 base salary (U.S. funds), plus so many numerous expense benefits it's hard to keep track as to what it is all worth, including a fully paid lifetime membership for 2 golf courses (1 in Canada, and 1 in the U.S.A.), 2 luxury vehicles, a yacht club membership, 3 major company gold credit cards for his personal expenses...and so on. This equates to about $0.51 per dollar of income goes to charity causes.
Brian Gallagher is still President and CEO of United Way, and currently earns $1,037,140 a year, according to a December 2010 report from the American Institute of Philanthropy.
A certain company I worked for held yearly United Way campaigns complete with payroll deduction and all, little prizes and pins for certain percentages of salary contributed, lunch, games, etc. All well and good I guess, except those that didn't feel obligated or just didn't want to contribute we're looked down upon as cheapskates so to speak. Kind of sad.
A certain company I worked for (not going to mention the name here but you can look it up on my profile if you really want to know) held yearly United Way campaigns complete with payroll deduction and all, little prizes and pins for certain percentages of salary contributed, lunch, games, etc. All well and good I guess, except those that didn't feel obligated or just didn't want to contribute we're looked down upon as cheapskates so to speak. Kind of sad.
After the Gloria King report came out, I stopped my payroll deduction and changed to another.
Moose2001
08-24-2012, 15:07
To bring up that fact, the AMC spends over $100,000 a year for helicopter services
[/COLOR]
The United Way only spends about 20 percent of their revenue on salaries. The AMC spends 50 percent. Take away your biased for hiking and 50 percent is considered to be a wasteful and scrooge charity by other means.
And that's just the reported compensation. Many other compensations aren't included, like automobiles, vocations, personal chefs, and other perks.
So remember, everytime you volunteer with the AMC, the leaders of the AMC are pocketing cash off of it.
Avoid giving them a dime and a moment of your time. Invest your time in legitimate trail organizations like the PATC, who pay their leaders 1/3rd of the salary of the AMC.
I'm not a currently an AMC member but I have been in the past. I don't always agree with the AMC but I also get tired of thrus bashing them.
So DaSchwartz, are you a member of the AMC? If not, then why do you care what the president/CEO is getting paid? The AMC Board of Directors sets the pay scale for the senior executives. The Board of Directors is elected by the AMC membership. If the members wanted a change, they would, and should, elect representatives who would change the pay structure. Listening to you bitch about the pay in an organization that you don't belong to sounds a lot like sour grapes to me.
Comparing AMC to the GATC is a bit like comparing apples and oranges. The AMC is a MUCH bigger organization. It manages facilities that the GATC doesn't have. The AMC's section of trail is much harder to maintain and includes a large section that is above tree line and is in a fragile and environmentally sensitive area. The AMC also has to deal with some very strict and restrictive rules from the USFS that don't apply to the GATC's section. Plus, compare the sheer numbers of hikers the AMC deals with compared to what the GATC sees.
I would suspect you have the same complaints I've heard from other thrus. You can't camp where you want and you have to pay to camp at certain sites. So what! We as thrus and hikers should be at the forefront of protecting the alpine environment instead of complaining that we can't destroy it at will. So you paid to camp somewhere. I've seen those campsites before they were pay to camp and had caretakers assigned. Before they were nasty, run down, disgusting places. What you pay goes directly to the salaries for the caretakers and the supplies they need to maintain the privies and sites. Get over your sense of entitlement!
Every time I see the United Way banner flying, I respond with a single finger salute!
Every time I see the United Way banner flying, I respond with a single finger salute!
+$1037140 on your post:)
Beautiful, beautiful country - just too many rocks for me. Love my southern Apps!
Good thing for me that I dig the rocks. A lot of the smaller hills and mountains nearer where I live are quite rocky, especially at their tops where the views are best. I do want to get down and sample the southern Apps, too, though, especially Grayson, the Tenn/NC line and Mt. Mitchell area. Before too long, I hope!
DaSchwartz
08-24-2012, 17:03
So DaSchwartz, are you a member of the AMC? If not, then why do you care what the president/CEO is getting paid?
Since this is a group that gets government grants and also a tax-exempt status, you darn right I care what they are getting paid. If they were a private corporation, I wouldn't care.
Again, 50 percent of all revenues in the charity going to salaries is a HORRIBLE CHARITY. Three times worse then the United Way. Like I said, hiker biased is the reason why some are justifying those high salaries. But you post that 990 form in any other non-hiking forum, and it would be exposed as a scrooge charity.
The PATC does a much better job with it's money.
And someone said the AMC is labor intensive, I can promise you that those making 100k or more a year aren't doing anything more labor intensive then typing on a keyboard.
Again, don't donate an ounce of time to them, give and donate to other legitimate Appalachian Trail organizations that actually use the money for it's intended purpose, not on bloated salaries in Boston
hikerboy57
08-24-2012, 17:13
there is a distinct difference between a non profit and a charity. if you want to talk about wasting money call your Senator.
Supreme Being
08-24-2012, 17:25
This is why the AMC should be removed.. Their own 990 tax filing
http://dynamodata.fdncenter.org/990_pdf_archive/046/046001677/046001677_201012_990.pdf
Andrew Felender - president of the AMC pays himself $300,000 a year in salary.. At least six others pull down over $100,000 a year.
Out of $20,000,000 in revenue, $10,000,000 goes toward salaries... Good if you are a for-profit company, bad for a non-profit
I agree with you completely. This is simply corporate greed. To put it in perspective: This man is paid $25,000 per month. A great many hikers do not make this amount per YEAR. I won't be donating to them...
Moose2001
08-24-2012, 17:29
there is a distinct difference between a non profit and a charity. if you want to talk about wasting money call your Senator.
Have to agree with there being a big difference. So Da Schwartz, since it's apparent you don't know what you're talking about, why don't you explain what your big problem with the AMC is? Did they ask you to pay to camp? Did they tell you that you couldn't stay at a hut? Just what is the source of your hatred?
Maybe some math person can check on this math being thrown around. Where does the 10,000,000 in pay figure come from? Just curious.
Chaco Taco
08-24-2012, 17:45
And by the way, the Georgia Appalachian Club does pay a dime in salary to anyone. All volunteer on every level. Yet they do one heck of a job maintaining the trail in Georgia.
HAHA, and how much of the AT is in GA? Just saying. AND how many people visit the GA AT each year? Im sure many people hike in GA in the spring and summer, but come up and here and then we will talk
Chaco Taco
08-24-2012, 17:52
Since this is a group that gets government grants and also a tax-exempt status, you darn right I care what they are getting paid. If they were a private corporation, I wouldn't care.
Again, 50 percent of all revenues in the charity going to salaries is a HORRIBLE CHARITY. Three times worse then the United Way. Like I said, hiker biased is the reason why some are justifying those high salaries. But you post that 990 form in any other non-hiking forum, and it would be exposed as a scrooge charity.
The PATC does a much better job with it's money.
And someone said the AMC is labor intensive, I can promise you that those making 100k or more a year aren't doing anything more labor intensive then typing on a keyboard.
Again, don't donate an ounce of time to them, give and donate to other legitimate Appalachian Trail organizations that actually use the money for it's intended purpose, not on bloated salaries in Boston When did the AMC become a "charity"? Maybe what I deem as a charity is differnt then the actual definition of a charity. They do ask for money yes, and I will gladly give them my money each year just as I will also give to the ATC, ALDHA
Its not a perfect world and the Whites arent perfect. The AMC does a great job, I think, and I love the mountains and the trails, especially off the AT. People that complain that its too hard make me laugh. Call yourselves hikers, gimme a break
HAHA, and how much of the AT is in GA? Just saying. AND how many people visit the GA AT each year? Im sure many people hike in GA in the spring and summer, but come up and here and then we will talk
and how much trail not in anyway associated with the AT are they also responsible for? these arguments always crack me up. no matter what about the amc were talking about you all act like were talking about $20million dollars spent on just the AT through the whites and wondering why all that money isnt enough to pay for more paint blazes. this is a yearly argument thats just moronic and to me is definitely a part of hiker entitlement, or in this case, specifically appalachian trail hiker entitlement.
that said, the idea that perhaps donations to a less rich organization with less widespread responsibilities may be a better way to help the appalchian trail specifically isnt a a completely invalid point.
Chaco Taco
08-24-2012, 17:57
and how much trail not in anyway associated with the AT are they also responsible for? these arguments always crack me up. no matter what about the amc were talking about you all act like were talking about $20million dollars spent on just the AT through the whites and wondering why all that money isnt enough to pay for more paint blazes. this is a yearly argument thats just moronic and to me is definitely a part of hiker entitlement, or in this case, specifically appalachian trail hiker entitlement.
that said, the idea that perhaps donations to a less rich organization with less widespread responsibilities may be a better way to help the appalchian trail specifically isnt a a completely invalid point.
and I agree with you and you make a very valid point. Its a yearly complaint about a small speck. The smaller crews like TN Eastman, CMC, and the MATC are good one we like to support.
hikerboy57
08-24-2012, 18:01
don't forget the atc
Chaco Taco
08-24-2012, 18:02
When did the AMC become a "charity"? Maybe what I deem as a charity is differnt then the actual definition of a charity. They do ask for money yes, and I will gladly give them my money each year just as I will also give to the ATC, ALDHA
Its not a perfect world and the Whites arent perfect. The AMC does a great job, I think, and I love the mountains and the trails, especially off the AT. People that complain that its too hard make me laugh. Call yourselves hikers, gimme a break
muah........
Sarcasm the elf
08-24-2012, 18:16
and how much trail not in anyway associated with the AT are they also responsible for? these arguments always crack me up. no matter what about the amc were talking about you all act like were talking about $20million dollars spent on just the AT through the whites and wondering why all that money isnt enough to pay for more paint blazes. this is a yearly argument thats just moronic and to me is definitely a part of hiker entitlement, or in this case, specifically appalachian trail hiker entitlement.that said, the idea that perhaps donations to a less rich organization with less widespread responsibilities may be a better way to help the appalchian trail specifically isnt a a completely invalid point.+1 I absolutely agree, that response was almost perfect. Also, bonus points for managing attack an argument without adding on a personal attack! That's a rare quality these days on WB.
jenpharr
08-24-2012, 23:34
This is not a new discussion. Here is a excerpt from the History of the Carolina Mountain Club:
By 1923, a major controversy was brewing between
the Northern and Southern Chapters of the
Appalachian Mountain Club which soon led to the
severing of all ties between the two groups. At that
time, the annual dues were set at $8.00 per member.
Seventy percent of this amount was sent to the
Appalachian Mountain Club of Boston, under the
provisions of the charter and constitution. The
members of the Asheville chapter gradually came to
feel that this was unfair since the money was chiefly
used in the construction of trails and shelters in the
mountains of New England and not the mountains of
Western North Carolina. This led to lengthy
correspondence through the mails with no resolution.
Officials in the North decided that the constitution of
their club required that the money be used on trails in
the Northeast and could not be changed for the benefit
of the Southern Chapter. As a result, all ties were severed between the two groups and an independent
Asheville hiking club was formed. On July 16, 1923,
the CMC was formed in Asheville, and the Southern
Chapter of the Appalachian Mountain Club ceased to
exist.
That being said, I have a friend who has hiked the whole A.T. once and most of it a second time who recently got turned around at a notoriously confusing intersection near the Osgood Tentsite in the unblazed stretch in the Great Gulf Wilderness. Cost him and his hiking partner about three miles and an hour's hiking, myself as well as their shuttle. Happens to the best of us now and then.
That's the section I found confusing. I had maps and consulted them a number of times. The problem was that lots of alternative paths had been trampled here and there, leaving me to wonder which was The Trail and which were informal paths leading who knows where. A map doesn't help a whole lots when you come to a five-way intersection where the map shows just a straight path.
When did the PAMC start??? Are they a better club to be a member of?
She is not the only offender in the United Way. They frequently come up in the top 5 most overpaid charity organizations. Google Brian Gallagher.
The third worst offender was again for the 7th time was, Brian Gallagher, President of the United Way receives a $375,000 base salary (U.S. funds), plus so many numerous expense benefits it's hard to keep track as to what it is all worth, including a fully paid lifetime membership for 2 golf courses (1 in Canada, and 1 in the U.S.A.), 2 luxury vehicles, a yacht club membership, 3 major company gold credit cards for his personal expenses...and so on. This equates to about $0.51 per dollar of income goes to charity causes.
Brian Gallagher is still President and CEO of United Way, and currently earns $1,037,140 a year, according to a December 2010 report from the American Institute of Philanthropy.
Trying to justify AMC's exorbitant salaries by comparing them to one of the worst, mis-managed rip off/strong arm organizations in the world will probably not earn you points, at least not with me. I refuse to donate to either.
I'm very sure a smaller, more focused trail club would make the AT a priority, and thus do a MUCH better job at managing the AT. I think that is the history of local trail clubs, they take over for a larger institution, government or otherwise, and the trail improves substantially. That is why most of the long trails are assigned by Congress to one or another government agency, but are then turned over to a small volunteer organization for actual management and care.
I am equally certain, that AMC would not allow another trail organization in their back yard. Their priority isn't what's best for the AT.
I am equally certain, that AMC would not allow another trail organization in their back yard. Their priority isn't what's best for the AT.
and should it be? why is that exactly? and how do you even turn over management of a "trail" that is really just an interconnection of parts of other trails? would amc still maintain the parts of those trails that arent the AT? youd have the crawford path, which pre dates and is far more important to the general hiking community than the AT, divided and maintained by different organizations?
i swear, no one gets it.
and how do you even turn over management of a "trail" that is really just an interconnection of parts of other trails? would amc still maintain the parts of those trails that arent the AT? youd have the crawford path, which pre dates and is far more important to the general hiking community than the AT, divided and maintained by different organizations?
i swear, no one gets it.
Happens all over the country. Most long trails are made up of pre-existing "local trails", at least in part. The sections of "local trail" get extra TLC from the AT community, and the Local trail managers can contribute more of their resources to the rest of their trails. Win - Win.
I still think that AMC is a political behemoth that would forego any advantages in order to maintain the monopoly status that they now have. They have convinced everyone that they are doing the best that can be done, and anything that would improve a portion of their empire would belie that position.
Happens all over the country. Most long trails are made up of pre-existing "local trails", at least in part. The sections of "local trail" get extra TLC from the AT community, and the Local trail managers can contribute more of their resources to the rest of their trails. Win - Win.
care to sight one specific example of a pre existing trail that a portion of which is now the AT is maintained by a different organization than does the rest of it? yeah, the AT is divided up among a zillion different organizations. thats not the same thing.
the crawford path is roughly 8 miles long from the notch to the top of mt washington. youre proposing that the first 3 miles be left to the AMC and the rest of it, which also happens to be the AT, be given to another organization? give me one example where this has been done anywhere else along the AT and i'll concede the point. this would be the case probably 25-50 times along the route of the AT through the whites. the franconia ridge trail is 5 miles long, 3.5 of that being part of the AT. you want to lop 1.5 miles off and leave that portion to the AMC and give 3.5 to this other organization. how is this beneficial to the white mountains as a whole and to the thousands and thousands of people who hike there? the carter-moriah trail is 13.8 miles, 4.5 of these is not part of the AT, again, you propose that dividing this up to 2 different organizations is a solution that would better serve ****ALL**** hikers? thats 3 examples, there are tons more.
max patch
08-25-2012, 09:45
youd have the crawford path, which pre dates and is far more important to the general hiking community than the AT, divided and maintained by different organizations?
I guarantee you that the great majority of the "general hiking community" hasn't even heard of the Crawford Path.
hikerboy57
08-25-2012, 09:49
It seems like this is a regional thing. The guys that live up here get it. The guys that don't don't get it. Welcome to the Northeast.
I'm not familiar with all of the AT local trails, I'm not local. I said it happens all over the country. For the North Country Trail, that I'm most familiar with, there is the KEK, Boarder Route, Superior Hiking Trail, Jordan River Pathway, Buckeye Trail, Finger Lakes Trails, and MANY more. These are all pre-existing trails that now share management responsibility for a PORTION of their trail with the North Country Trail Association in what most would agree are Win - Win situations. There are many other examples. John Muir Trail and PCT, Tahoe Rim Trail and PCT, CDT and MANY local trails. All of these have split management and it works very well.
yellowsirocco
08-25-2012, 09:57
I guarantee you that the great majority of the "general hiking community" hasn't even heard of the Crawford Path.
Yep, most AT hikers are too busy crying about the AMC to pay attention to the local trail names and their histories. Lets just say the "general hiking community of the Whites" knows the Crawford Path well.
yellowsirocco
08-25-2012, 09:58
Yep, most AT hikers are too busy crying about the AMC to pay attention to the local trail names and their histories. Lets just say the "general hiking community of the Whites" knows the Crawford Path well.
And I am from the south and can appreciate the Crawford Path too.
Wise Old Owl
08-25-2012, 10:30
I am amazed some of you are so concerned about earning 6 figure salaries. Although I don't - Many of my friends do and work hard enough to justify it. Last night I met a great guy who sells millions of dollars of commercial windows in two states. He takes care of his clients and works many hours a week.
IF you have a great work ethic - you can earn money like that.
Monkeywrench
08-25-2012, 10:53
It seems like this is a regional thing. The guys that live up here get it. The guys that don't don't get it. Welcome to the Northeast.
I'm not sure that's true. There are plenty of hikers in the Northeast who don't think very highly of the AMC.
hikerboy57
08-25-2012, 11:01
i was basing it on the replies to this thread. overwhelmingly have been from either the south midwest or the west.
Mfrenchy
08-25-2012, 11:05
I see this is a touchy subject for a few people so I will try to tread lightly. I was just through some of those sections and I gotta say that it is beautiful. I think that having outside trail crews to help maintain portions of the area could only help if it was over lapping. There was a particular four way intersection that I came to where the sign was facing directly between the trails so figuring out which way was which was a guess. A blaze at the intersection would have been nice. I think the worst of the erosion issues were outside of the popular areas. There was a dramatic change in trail maintenance when we hit the MATC border near Grafton Notch. The AT seems to me to be an attraction for people just like Mt. Washington and the others why not maintain the traditional markings.
I guarantee you that the great majority of the "general hiking community" hasn't even heard of the Crawford Path.
and i know for an absolute certainty more people in the white mountains hike the crawford path than hike the AT. ignorance of this fact is a large part of why this thread repeats itself every year. go to NH and ask some fellow hikers where the AT is, see if any of them have a clue. most of them don't. ask the 500 people on top of mt Lafayette on a clear weekend day if theyre aware theyre on the AT. if you find 10 people who say they are i'll be impressed. theres a disconnect between how important AT hikers think the AT is to the white mountains and reality. a very large one.
It seems like this is a regional thing. The guys that live up here get it. The guys that don't don't get it. Welcome to the Northeast.
i dont live anywhere near NH, i just pay attention.
I'm not familiar with all of the AT local trails, I'm not local. I said it happens all over the country. For the North Country Trail, that I'm most familiar with, there is the KEK, Boarder Route, Superior Hiking Trail, Jordan River Pathway, Buckeye Trail, Finger Lakes Trails, and MANY more. These are all pre-existing trails that now share management responsibility for a PORTION of their trail with the North Country Trail Association in what most would agree are Win - Win situations. There are many other examples. John Muir Trail and PCT, Tahoe Rim Trail and PCT, CDT and MANY local trails. All of these have split management and it works very well.
ok, so the tahoe rim trail is only in part on the PCT? who manages the part on the PCT and who manages the rest?
The AT seems to me to be an attraction for people just like Mt. Washington and the others why not maintain the traditional markings.
and thats where youre wrong. the AT is not what draws people to the whites. not in the least.
Pedaling Fool
08-25-2012, 12:00
That's the section I found confusing. I had maps and consulted them a number of times. The problem was that lots of alternative paths had been trampled here and there, leaving me to wonder which was The Trail and which were informal paths leading who knows where. A map doesn't help a whole lots when you come to a five-way intersection where the map shows just a straight path.
I see this is a touchy subject for a few people so I will try to tread lightly. I was just through some of those sections and I gotta say that it is beautiful. I think that having outside trail crews to help maintain portions of the area could only help if it was over lapping. There was a particular four way intersection that I came to where the sign was facing directly between the trails so figuring out which way was which was a guess. A blaze at the intersection would have been nice. I think the worst of the erosion issues were outside of the popular areas. There was a dramatic change in trail maintenance when we hit the MATC border near Grafton Notch. The AT seems to me to be an attraction for people just like Mt. Washington and the others why not maintain the traditional markings.
and thats where youre wrong. the AT is not what draws people to the whites. not in the least.
It draws some to the Whites. It's why I was there as well as others. You seem to be interested in being crusader for AMC and that's fine, but some are just simply giving their observation of what their experience was in the whites and I'm one of those that had the same observation as others, which are illustrated in the posts above.
It's one thing to defend the AMC, but to denouce anyone who just shares their observation is just a little too fanatical.
ok, so the tahoe rim trail is only in part on the PCT? who manages the part on the PCT and who manages the rest?
i took an admittedly quick look, but it seems the entire tahoe rim trail is managed by one group, both the part on and the part off the PCT so thats not the same as what i'm talking about at all. that someone else manages is the rest of the PCT is irrelevant. i imagine same is true of the JMT.
It draws some to the Whites. It's why I was there as well as others. You seem to be interested in being crusader for AMC and that's fine, but some are just simply giving their observation of what their experience was in the whites and I'm one of those that had the same observation as others, which are illustrated in the posts above.
It's one thing to defend the AMC, but to denouce anyone who just shares their observation is just a little too fanatical.
i'm not defending the AMC, its just annoying when people refuse to see the big picture and whine about what is in the grand scheme of things an incredibly minor problem. that many people have the same inaccurate experience doesnt it make it accurate, especially since we are all by definition interested in the AT. if this where a board dedicated to broadway shows one could surmise that the only reason anyone ever goes to NY is to visit broadway, that wouldnt make it so.
i took an admittedly quick look, but it seems the entire tahoe rim trail is managed by one group, both the part on and the part off the PCT so thats not the same as what i'm talking about at all. that someone else manages is the rest of the PCT is irrelevant. i imagine same is true of the JMT.
And all the rest I cited?
I was the maintainer for the Jordan River Pathway here in Michigan for many years. It is very definitely a partnership. Same with the Buckeye Trail, Finger Lakes, Superior Hiking Trail. And just waiting for The Congress to play catch-up to reality with the Border Route and KEK to make those partnerships official.
In regard to the Tahoe Rim and PCT, it may well be that the agreement calls for the TRT organization to perform the maintenance, and they may only receive monetary support from the PCT. This is what makes it a win-win. They also probably agree on regulations that apply - why bicycles are not allowed on the PCT portion, but are allowed on most of the rest of the TRT.
In my example of the Jordan River Pathway, the NCTA does virtually all of the normal maintenance, get approval from the State DNR for major improvements/reroutes/bridges/boardwalks. Most of the time the NCTA then funds and performs the work for these improvements. In some instances the DNR provides materials transport and access in cooperation. Again, win-win.
In the case of the Buckeye Trail and North Country Trail Association, it went as far as sharing the costs of an employee. NCTA kept their Regional Trail Manager for Ohio and PA, Buckeye Trail Association got a half-time Executive Director - very much a win-win.
My point is, there are a LOT of advantages to implementing cooperative agreements that serve to improve the trails involved. But they have to be cooperative. One side cannot insist on being the dictator. That is the problem that I would anticipate in trying to establish such an agreement with AMC. They would want EVERYTHING their way - no concessions. As a result, the AT is not as well maintained as it could be.
hikerboy57
08-25-2012, 12:52
i wonder if anyone has actually tried to contact the ATC regarding better maintenance of the AT in the whites.the basic issue seems to be a few places where signs were confusing. i cant see why the AMC would object to the ATC picking up the slack on the AT itself, as its not exactly a profit center and would alleviate the burden on the AMCs maintenance of the AT, given the hundreds of miles of other trails they maintain.my personal experiences interacting with the AMC have all been good ones, most recently an AMC employee at gorman lodge who offered to give me a lift into greenville when i hurt my ankle.but there have been some legitimate criticisms(as well as a lot of illegitmate ones)and ill agree there should be a better way to address those concerns.i will say the AMC is not solely about making money, but then i am a bit biased.
And all the rest I cited?
I was the maintainer for the Jordan River Pathway here in Michigan for many years. It is very definitely a partnership. Same with the Buckeye Trail, Finger Lakes, Superior Hiking Trail. And just waiting for The Congress to play catch-up to reality with the Border Route and KEK to make those partnerships official.
In regard to the Tahoe Rim and PCT, it may well be that the agreement calls for the TRT organization to perform the maintenance, and they may only receive monetary support from the PCT. This is what makes it a win-win. They also probably agree on regulations that apply - why bicycles are not allowed on the PCT portion, but are allowed on most of the rest of the TRT.
In my example of the Jordan River Pathway, the NCTA does virtually all of the normal maintenance, get approval from the State DNR for major improvements/reroutes/bridges/boardwalks. Most of the time the NCTA then funds and performs the work for these improvements. In some instances the DNR provides materials transport and access in cooperation. Again, win-win.
In the case of the Buckeye Trail and North Country Trail Association, it went as far as sharing the costs of an employee. NCTA kept their Regional Trail Manager for Ohio and PA, Buckeye Trail Association got a half-time Executive Director - very much a win-win.
My point is, there are a LOT of advantages to implementing cooperative agreements that serve to improve the trails involved. But they have to be cooperative. One side cannot insist on being the dictator. That is the problem that I would anticipate in trying to establish such an agreement with AMC. They would want EVERYTHING their way - no concessions. As a result, the AT is not as well maintained as it could be.
were talking about 2 different things, i understand what youre talking about, you fail to comprehend that what i am talking about is different and in no way related. there is already an organization working in partnership with the atc and i would imagine the usfs to main not just the AT but hundreds of miles of other trails in the white mountain national forest. they are the amc. i am not saying anything about whether the AMC would ever make the agreement you suggest or not, i am saying it would not be good for hiking in the wmnf to try such an approach. youre examples are in no way the same as what the situation in the whites would be, that has nothing to do with amc politics or anything else.
lets put this another way. if today is a clear day in the white mountains, between mt lafayette and mt washington probably close to 1000 people will be out on day hikes. as part of their hike, they will coincidentally touch a part of the AT and probably not even be aware of it. how many AT thru and section hikers do you think will be out today in those areas? 25, 50, 100? what i am saying is the proposals everyone is making to better the AT would in fact make the AT better, no argument there at all, but they would make the experience worse for everyone else. since everyone else far outnumbers users of the AT, that makes these proposals foolish. if we care to acknowledge that the recreational activity of hiking in the white mountains doesnt just revolve around AT thru and section hikers, this would be plain to see. we are all AT hikers here though by definition and many of us, particularly those whove never been to the whites as anything other than someone hiking the AT, have difficulty seeing this. this difficulty does not make it any less so. it just means we have tunnel vision and dont see the big picture.
take it or leave it, i'm done.
Mfrenchy
08-25-2012, 13:05
I didn't see any of the other parks like Shenandoah or the Smokies have a problem.
max patch
08-25-2012, 13:09
Lets just say the "general hiking community of the Whites" knows the Crawford Path well.
I agree with that, and if that is what tdoczi had said I wouldn't have commented.
max patch
08-25-2012, 13:18
i cant see why the AMC would object to the ATC picking up the slack on the AT itself, as its not exactly a profit center and would alleviate the burden on the AMCs maintenance of the AT
The ATC maintains exactly zero miles of the AT so thats not going to happen. They do fund some of the work groups, so if the AT is as bad as some of you say then that should probably be something they do. Its been 10 years since I've hiked thru the Whites so I can't comment on its current status. I've only hiked the Whites twice, but I haven't gotten lost - or even confused - yet.
bamboo bob
08-25-2012, 13:23
I agree with most of the replies about keeping the trail maintained. You have to understand that the AMC is not about thru-hiking. It's about bringing city folk into the forest. I don't like the huts and feel they are over priced and over rated, especially the food. But, the huts are really not for people with packs. They are for people with no packs. That's the point. The tip soliciting by the "croos" is appalling to many people. But that whole song and dance is directed to people who would not likely be back woods travelers. The huts are for Cambridge, Newton, Brookline, Lexington affluent suburbanites on vacation this year instead of Cape Cod. A bargain at $300 a night for a family to cross the Whites.
The statement that improving the condition of the AT in the Whites would denigrate the experience of all the other trail users in the Whites makes absolutely no sense.
No further comment from me.
The statement that improving the condition of the AT in the Whites would denigrate the experience of all the other trail users in the Whites makes absolutely no sense.
No further comment from me.
so if you were hiking a trail that had blazes on it that you didnt realize were marking the AT, then after several miles you came to a junction where the blazes went one way but the trail you were actually hiking went another, unblazed, you dont see the potential for confusion?
ypu dont see the faulty logic in providing extra maintenance resources to a short 3 mile section of trail of which the overwhelmingly most common use is as part of a longer day hike in conjunction with other trails? is the rest of that 9 mile loop not as important as the 3 miles that happen to be on the AT? to you and to some other people here perhaps, you are far far far in the minority.
Mfrenchy
08-25-2012, 14:08
If there was good signage it would be a non issue.
If there was good signage it would be a non issue.
in my experience in the whites the signage is some of the best trail signage anywhere, certainly along the AT. i have tons of photos if you want to see, as taking pictures of trail signs is an odd hobby i have when i hike.
Mfrenchy
08-25-2012, 15:26
In my experience, it is not.
In my experience, it is not.
care to lodge a specific complaint? i probably have a photo of the sign in question.
Wise Old Owl
08-25-2012, 16:02
The ATC maintains exactly zero miles of the AT so thats not going to happen. They do fund some of the work groups, so if the AT is as bad as some of you say then that should probably be something they do. Its been 10 years since I've hiked thru the Whites so I can't comment on its current status. I've only hiked the Whites twice, but I haven't gotten lost - or even confused - yet.
Thanks Max - I forgot about that, but I am reminded about the recent tunnel under a unsafe road in PA that they added. There are other projects they work on .... Wait (I am not looking for an argument)
How do you explain this page????? Anyone?
http://www.appalachiantrail.org/what-we-do/trail-management-support/trail-crews/maine-trail-crew
hikerboy57
08-25-2012, 16:19
we still have a bit of a disconnect here. for those of you who have only hiked the AT in NH, i encourage you to explore the hundreds and hundreds of miles of other trails managed by the AMC and the RMC, and im sure you'll agree theyve done a terrific job. we did have a major storm last year, and iexpect every mile of trail has yet to be fully restored, but ive been hiking the whites since 1976 and still marvel at the ingenuity involved in creating and maintining these trails.hike the bonds, go out to carrigain,evans notch,hike the north side of adams, madison. its spectacular country.
it also surprises me that so many yearn for a "wilderness" experience, and then are surprised sometimes when things get a bit hairy. thats what attracts me to these areas to begin with. its not always going to be easy. maybe they can do a better job, but my own experience is theyre pretty on top of things.
i think if your experience in the whites is limited to just the AT, you're missing out on some of the best trails(and oldest)anywhere in the east.
HeartFire
08-25-2012, 16:37
Having just hiked Crawford Notch to Pinkham notch, most of the signs (when there were sings) did have the AT on them. When they didn't, someone invariably wrote on the sign which way the AT went. This was the case at the Osgood tent site, Not only did my maps show the correct way to go, the guide book spells out clearly the 'other names of trail' to take, but someone had written on the sign with an arrow "AT north". The next junction was a little more confusing to me as I didn't notice the trail that was the AT (5 way intersection) but my friend did.
Overall, I did not find it confusing in the Whites, I just didn't like it.1716517166 I also found that trail maintenance was vastly different on the portion of the AT that coincides with the Long Trail, very few blazes, a lot of erosion, immediately after Killington Vt the AT improved. There was absolutely no signage whatsoever at Prospect Rock telling you to take a 90* turn and go up the stairs, the next sign/blaze was at least 1/10 mile up the trail. My map showed the turn (and I met so many hikers this year without maps!). I did mention this to Jeff at the Green Mt. Hiker Hostel, and he recently posted that this has been fixed, a double white blaze has been painted at the intersection.
HeartFire
08-25-2012, 16:42
it also surprises me that so many yearn for a "wilderness" experience, and then are surprised sometimes when things get a bit hairy. thats what attracts me to these areas to begin with. its not always going to be easy. maybe they can do a better job, but my own experience is theyre pretty on top of things.
.
Hmmm, wilderness experience to me does not necessarily translate into "hairy", and the Whites were a zoo not a wilderness. I've never seem so many out hiking in one place- except perhaps in March at the start of the AT. To me a wilderness experience involves a lot less human contact.
Having just hiked Crawford Notch to Pinkham notch, most of the signs (when there were sings) did have the AT on them. When they didn't, someone invariably wrote on the sign which way the AT went. This was the case at the Osgood tent site, Not only did my maps show the correct way to go, the guide book spells out clearly the 'other names of trail' to take, but someone had written on the sign with an arrow "AT north". The next junction was a little more confusing to me as I didn't notice the trail that was the AT (5 way intersection) but my friend did.
Overall, I did not find it confusing in the Whites, I just didn't like it.1716517166 I also found that trail maintenance was vastly different on the portion of the AT that coincides with the Long Trail, very few blazes, a lot of erosion, immediately after Killington Vt the AT improved. There was absolutely no signage whatsoever at Prospect Rock telling you to take a 90* turn and go up the stairs, the next sign/blaze was at least 1/10 mile up the trail. My map showed the turn (and I met so many hikers this year without maps!). I did mention this to Jeff at the Green Mt. Hiker Hostel, and he recently posted that this has been fixed, a double white blaze has been painted at the intersection.
i actually found incorrect information scratched into the signs in a couple of spots when i was there, particularly around osgood. theres so many trails and junctions there is more than 1 way to go through the area and end up further down the AT. what someone had scratched into the signs was correct in that it got you through the area and back onto the AT, but by using a different combination of trails than what the AT intends you to use. not a big deal to me but i know more than a few people whod be bothered by missing a small aprt of the official route.
but one of my all time fav common wrong turns in the whites is at the brook down the hill from lonesome lake. after crossing, theres a trail that continues away from the brook and one that follows the brook. even the most rudimentary trail map a 5 year old would scratch on the back of a napkin would tell you the one you want is the one that goes away from the brook if you bothered to look at it, but apparently hanging a left and following the trail along side the brook is an incredibly common error. if you make this mistake it isnt the signs fault, sorry.
hikerboy57
08-25-2012, 17:09
Hmmm, wilderness experience to me does not necessarily translate into "hairy", and the Whites were a zoo not a wilderness. I've never seem so many out hiking in one place- except perhaps in March at the start of the AT. To me a wilderness experience involves a lot less human contact.part of AMCs duty is to ensure the crowds dont lead to overerosion. and yeah, I know, it stinks that so many people want to enjoy the same views as you do, the bulk of which dont find it at all "hairy"
but i encourage you to explore other parts of the whites. there are many trails where you wont see more than a few people during the course of a day or two, and i think your opinion of AMC trail maintenance might change.
Mfrenchy
08-25-2012, 17:21
My complaint isn't with trail maintenance in The Whites, I thought it was quite good for the traffic it gets(after not so much), but with signage. My hiking partner through The Whites went down the wrong trail that tdoczi (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/member.php?28086-tdoczi) mentioned. It had both white and blue blazes on it. One of the spots that got me was after Mitzpah Hut on the way to Lake of the Clouds. There was a four way intersection with a sign indicating where I was supposed to go, but it was pointing in the wrong direction.
hikerboy57
08-25-2012, 17:31
My complaint isn't with trail maintenance in The Whites, I thought it was quite good for the traffic it gets(after not so much), but with signage. My hiking partner through The Whites went down the wrong trail that tdoczi (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/member.php?28086-tdoczi) mentioned. It had both white and blue blazes on it. One of the spots that got me was after Mitzpah Hut on the way to Lake of the Clouds. There was a four way intersection with a sign indicating where I was supposed to go, but it was pointing in the wrong direction.
frenchy, your complaint is a valid one, and im not sure what the solution is. but the debate began with an attack on AMC, and if you had hiked other portions of the whites, you might come to the conclusion they do a pretty good job. i expect that some of the problems are due to last years storm, and as mentioned earlier, the AMC maintains hundreds of trails besides the AT. ive personally never had a problem, but i cetainly understand how confusing the trail networks are up there.
eliminating the AMC is not a solution however, maybe some other group that can supplement their efforts.
agasin, congrats on a great thru hike, hope it leads to more.
Mfrenchy
08-25-2012, 17:34
You are a wise man sir. I like your ideas. Let's make this happen.
hikerboy57
08-25-2012, 17:37
You are a wise man sir. I like your ideas. Let's make this happen.not too wise, but i do try to keep an open mind.:)
and we do hope you can stay with wb to offer your experience, thats what this is all about.
and if you want to have a laugh or 2 visit the cafe.all are welcome, only one rule, no arguing.just fun.
Jack Tarlin
08-25-2012, 20:09
Interesting thread. In my experience, whenever (on the Internet or in person) I encounter someone who has unkind or harsh things to say about how well a particular section of the Trail has been maintained, I always ask the same questions: How much trail maintenance has this person actually done? If they're engaged on a thru-hike or perhaps recently completed one, out of 180-odd days of their hiking vacation, how many days, or even hours, were devoted to Trail work? And even more important, in regards to the section of the trail that is in such allegedly poor condition, how much time has the complainer spent actually working on that section in order to improve things for others? These are all eminently fair questions. And they also tend to end the discussion and complaints.
My complaint isn't with trail maintenance in The Whites, I thought it was quite good for the traffic it gets(after not so much), but with signage. My hiking partner through The Whites went down the wrong trail that tdoczi (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/member.php?28086-tdoczi) mentioned. It had both white and blue blazes on it. One of the spots that got me was after Mitzpah Hut on the way to Lake of the Clouds. There was a four way intersection with a sign indicating where I was supposed to go, but it was pointing in the wrong direction.
was it this one?17170
i dont recall having a problem with it being pointed incorrectly (june '09) HB might be right about it being a storm related issue, or who knows. the thing about that area though.... you can take away all the signs, all the blazes, all the cairns, everything.... just walk uphill towards the mountain i like to call "the one with all the crap on it" as seen in the photo below-
17171
thats about the clearest sign youll ever see. i suppose in the rain it wouldnt do you much good, but other than that....
Wise Old Owl
08-25-2012, 23:39
.................self edited/
Mr. Clean
08-26-2012, 06:18
As someone else stated, the National Forest Service sets the rules in the White Mtns, and the AMC just helps to enforce them. Around the Whites, you cannot blaze in a "Wilderness area", so route finding does become a bit tougher, which is the intent of the wilderness area in the first place. You can like AMC or not, but the truth is that they do an outstanding job of mobilizing a volunteer work force for the hundreds of trails in the Whites, the vast majority of them non-AT trails. Other trails are more popular and get more attention.
Maybe the Forest Service could tweek it's rules for blazing in the Wilderness areas for the AT only for those just passin' thru.
Mr. Clean, maintainer of the Baldface Circle trail (non-AT)
traildust
08-26-2012, 09:16
Tom,
Painting blazes in Wilderness areas is at the discretion of the local Forest Supervisor. In Ky in the Clifty Wilderness and the Red River Gorge they are restricted to hand painted only, no plastic blazes on trees or metal blazes nailed to trees. Still folks with maps and guidebooks get lost or misplaced on a regular basis. The idea of more blazes is to me an effort to help a first time hiker or family have an enjoyable experience and return to the forest and not be angry or frustrated by getting misplaced on the trail. Experienced hikers I have met will say there are to many blazes or they will say they don't pay much attention to them.
Wise Old Owl
08-26-2012, 09:25
Trail dust - some folks are so green to hiking they could double the blazes and people would still complain.
Example: my mother in law showing up to hike with high heals. You can imagine what I said. I should have told her to stay at the car.
For me, someone who gets confused on direction not infrequently, a lot of it has to do with my state of mind at the time.
If I'm already angry, tired or discombobulated I'm more likely to get confused.
I have often thought of something that upset me so much I was going to report it and then totally forgot about it a few miles later.
Tom,
Painting blazes in Wilderness areas is at the discretion of the local Forest Supervisor. In Ky in the Clifty Wilderness and the Red River Gorge they are restricted to hand painted only, no plastic blazes on trees or metal blazes nailed to trees. Still folks with maps and guidebooks get lost or misplaced on a regular basis. The idea of more blazes is to me an effort to help a first time hiker or family have an enjoyable experience and return to the forest and not be angry or frustrated by getting misplaced on the trail. Experienced hikers I have met will say there are to many blazes or they will say they don't pay much attention to them.
and yet its primarily the hikers who have hiked nearly 2000 miles from GA who complain about the lack of blazes in the whites.
Hiking without blazes can indeed be unsettling if you're used to them. Hiking in unblazed areas like the BMT is a good antidote.
For me, someone who gets confused on direction not infrequently, a lot of it has to do with my state of mind at the time.
If I'm already angry, tired or discombobulated I'm more likely to get confused.
I have often thought of something that upset me so much I was going to report it and then totally forgot about it a few miles later.
Truth in that. I did a ridge walk that I have done before yesterday. Went roaring right on by a turn several times. Last half hour to the trailhead I was having issues going down a trail that I have done 20+ time this Summer. Was tired and the angle of the sun over my shoulder was different than usual.
In a busy area sign posts can get lifted and turned 90*. Seen it. Several trail markers here do not get replaced because people keep stealing the board off the post.
Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footsteps.
Tom Murphy
08-26-2012, 11:25
Signage and blazes - bringing a map of the white mountain trails and a compass with you would go a long way towards solving any problems
Since this is a group that gets government grants and also a tax-exempt status, you darn right I care what they are getting paid. If they were a private corporation, I wouldn't care.
Again, 50 percent of all revenues in the charity going to salaries is a HORRIBLE CHARITY. Three times worse then the United Way. Like I said, hiker biased is the reason why some are justifying those high salaries. But you post that 990 form in any other non-hiking forum, and it would be exposed as a scrooge charity.
The PATC does a much better job with it's money.
And someone said the AMC is labor intensive, I can promise you that those making 100k or more a year aren't doing anything more labor intensive then typing on a keyboard.
Again, don't donate an ounce of time to them, give and donate to other legitimate Appalachian Trail organizations that actually use the money for it's intended purpose, not on bloated salaries in Boston
Some non profits raise money to donate to others. Some raise money to run facilities. AMC is among the latter. The group runs a series of lodges (huts) through the whites, and now in Maine. Maintains hundreds of miles of trails. And have numerous other facilities and campground. Very few employees make executive salaries. Most strike me as underpaid.
BTW, I've been hiking in the Whites for 79 years, since the age of four, if my parents were to be believed. I don't recall that first walk up the Imp. But I've even been lost in the Whites. It was about the age of 14. I was had climbed Washington with a buddy, and persuaded him to take a short cut down to the Dolly Copp, National Forest campground, where we were staying. We had run into blowdowns from a late 30's hurricane and we had to climb over giant spruce felled by the wind and lost the trail. My buddy broke out in a rash. It was his first serious hike and he was scared. The rash disappeared when we finally reached the Great Gulf Trail again. I didn't complain about the AMC. As kids we thought of AMC as those Boston elitists. But I knew we would eventually find the trail again. I had been wandering the hills and rocks by myself for years.
I even eventually joined AMC. It was two decades later. I was working as a newspaper reporter, and found that writing about the Maine mountains was more fun than technical stories about boring plans for new power plants and oil refineries near Maine's deep ports. An AMC member stopped by the newspaper one day and argued that if I was going to write about mountains I should be a member of the group that did the most for northeast mountains. I joined. A few years later the AMC gave me a free lifetime membership. It seems they were impressed with a series of stories I had written that claimed Maine still owned 400,000 acres of public land that it had preserved 150 years earlier and then forgotten about.
Those forgotten lands are now managed as the Bigelow and Mahoosuc Preserves and numerous other parcels, including a big chunk near the AT in the 100-mile-wilderness, so called. AMC also now owns 70,000 acres in the "wilderness." I served for a while as part of the initial AMC Maine planning committee. I no longer paid dues, but I've been a volunteer for most of the two decades since retiring, for both AMC and MATC. Both are great organizations, and don't deserve the ignorant criticism I sometimes read on White Blaze.
amc
Moose2001
08-26-2012, 13:06
I no longer paid dues, but I've been a volunteer for most of the two decades since retiring, for both AMC and MATC. Both are great organizations, and don't deserve the ignorant criticism I sometimes read on White Blaze.
amc
Well said Weary. Thanks for your feedback.
Chaco Taco
08-26-2012, 19:24
Just got back a little while ago. Stayed at Ethan Pond last night. My hat is off to the caretaker at this site. He was working on the compost and getting ready to start another drying batch of the privy. I did not envy his job. Saw him out cutting over hangs and moving rocks this am, and we leave out early This particular guy was very friendly. We had a great group. Slamander, from this site was there. Saw a good many thru's. Saw a couple of SOBO's. Anyway, I just want to comment because this came up in discussion. The number of young people going to work at the AMC has dropped in recent years. This particular caretaker said many of them go back to school, so the numbers drop even more. I was also glad to see much of the Willey Range is not blazed. There is no need to. Blazes are where blazes need to be. There are some difficult parts that you have to navigate. Thats part of it. People forget the AT is but a small piece of The Whites. The signage is everywhere and new signs have been put up all along the AT. Had a great time and saw many father/ daughter duo's out. Great seeing parents get their kids out :)
Pedaling Fool
08-26-2012, 19:57
He was working on the compost and getting ready to start another drying batch of the privy. I did not envy his job. Saw him out cutting over hangs and moving rocks this am, and we leave out early This particular guy was very friendly.
There's no such thing as a maintenance-free privy; I don't care how "mouldering friendly" the design is supposed to be. The privies through that section of the Whites are the only ones that receive proper maintenance for complete aerobic decomposition.
Not a criticism of all other clubs; that section of the Whites just has the infrastructure to be able to do it.
swjohnsey
08-27-2012, 16:07
Well, I made it to Stratton, only 190 or so miles to go. Got to see first hand how some of the really nice rock work probably done initially by the CCC boys in the '30 that has been allowed to wash away in Maine. I still haven't figured out why the folks in Maine haven't figured out the bridge thing. Can you imagine fording the James River?hike
My guess is that the AMC foks who actually control where the money is spent haven't hiked the AT in years.
swjohnsey
08-27-2012, 16:12
As someone else stated, the National Forest Service sets the rules in the White Mtns, and the AMC just helps to enforce them. Around the Whites, you cannot blaze in a "Wilderness area", so route finding does become a bit tougher, which is the intent of the wilderness area in the first place. You can like AMC or not, but the truth is that they do an outstanding job of mobilizing a volunteer work force for the hundreds of trails in the Whites, the vast majority of them non-AT trails. Other trails are more popular and get more attention.
Maybe the Forest Service could tweek it's rules for blazing in the Wilderness areas for the AT only for those just passin' thru.
Mr. Clean, maintainer of the Baldface Circle trail (non-AT)
I had a ranger at Joe Dodge Lodge try to blow the same smoke up my skirt. Let's see, we can put up signs but a white blaze is intrusive. Need I remind folks that the AT crosses dozens of wilderness areas.
I had a ranger at Joe Dodge Lodge try to blow the same smoke up my skirt. Let's see, we can put up signs but a white blaze is intrusive. Need I remind folks that the AT crosses dozens of wilderness areas.
yes, and theres less blazing when they do. the signs in places like VT tell you so. i'm sure i have a picture of such a sign at home i can show you.
they can probably put blazes or the signs. the signs serve everyone, the blazes serve the maybe 2% who are AT hikers. not a tough choice to make.
Tom Murphy
08-27-2012, 16:46
Well, I made it to Stratton, only 190 or so miles to go. Got to see first hand how some of the really nice rock work probably done initially by the CCC boys in the '30 that has been allowed to wash away in Maine. I still haven't figured out why the folks in Maine haven't figured out the bridge thing. Can you imagine fording the James River?hike
My guess is that the AMC foks who actually control where the money is spent haven't hiked the AT in years.
MATC and AMC are two seperate groups.
MATC seems to harden their trails by routing on ledges where ever possible.
I am glad the MATC does not build bridges. I enjoy crossing brooks, streams, and rivers. That is part of hiking in New England.
For the most part, the AMC executives are hikers [or at least the ones I have met]. The AMC has miles and miles of trails it manitains & the AMC is only a tiny percentage of the total.
hikerboy57
08-27-2012, 16:48
no 1 said it was going to be easy.
Moose2001
08-27-2012, 17:11
Well, I made it to Stratton, only 190 or so miles to go. Got to see first hand how some of the really nice rock work probably done initially by the CCC boys in the '30 that has been allowed to wash away in Maine. I still haven't figured out why the folks in Maine haven't figured out the bridge thing. Can you imagine fording the James River?hike
My guess is that the AMC foks who actually control where the money is spent haven't hiked the AT in years.
Before you run your mouth and bitch, maybe you should take a moment or two and find out why things are the way they are. Oh....that's right. It's easier to bitch and whine than to be an adult!
hikerboy57
08-27-2012, 17:21
can the AMC please do something about the black flies? and can they put a moving sidewalk inmahoosuc notch come on guys stop whining already.
can the AMC please do something about the black flies? and can they put a moving sidewalk inmahoosuc notch come on guys stop whining already.
One escalator on the way! Where do you want it HB?
T.S.Kobzol
08-27-2012, 17:38
Nice
This is why the AMC should be removed.. Their own 990 tax filing
http://dynamodata.fdncenter.org/990_pdf_archive/046/046001677/046001677_201012_990.pdf
Andrew Felender - president of the AMC pays himself $300,000 a year in salary.. At least six others pull down over $100,000 a year.
Out of $20,000,000 in revenue, $10,000,000 goes toward salaries... Good if you are a for-profit company, bad for a non-profit
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T.S.Kobzol
08-27-2012, 17:47
We'll for starters I would want them to stop separating working family from taking their kids to hike the presidential range in 3 nights. At these prices many NH kids will know about hiking the presidential range from geography class but will never be able to afford it.
The prices discriminate. It is similar to paying $4000 for country club membership to separate your self from the blue collar thrash.
What would you rather them spend the money on? Do you want more shelters? Would you rather the money go towards building more huts? If they are not spending it on salaries of the people taking care of the mountains, then they would be spending it on building more stuff.
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Chaco Taco
08-27-2012, 17:53
Well, I made it to Stratton, only 190 or so miles to go. Got to see first hand how some of the really nice rock work probably done initially by the CCC boys in the '30 that has been allowed to wash away in Maine. I still haven't figured out why the folks in Maine haven't figured out the bridge thing. Can you imagine fording the James River?hike
My guess is that the AMC foks who actually control where the money is spent haven't hiked the AT in years.
Ahh but who maintains that stair case there Mr Crabbypaints.
"Im sorry but the trail is just too hard, too many climbs, too many rocks not enough man made structures to get me to Maine. And really folks, lets get atleast 10 more hostels cuz I just dont want to get dirty. I need to shower every other day. Pshh, yea and screw those trail maintainers, esp the lazy caretakers in The Whites. They dont do nothin.
17215
Im guessing if you would have hiked it back when those CCC boys were out building stuff, you wouldnt have made it outta Georgia.
hikerboy57
08-27-2012, 17:55
plenty of beautiful areas to take the kids that are free. and there are many ways to hike the presis w/o using the huts.
but theyre also a great way to introduce a kid to the mountains for a night.and theyll usually find kids their own age there so they dont feel this hiking expedition is some sort of punishment.the more people we can get to love the mountains, the more of a pool to help protect it as well. its a 2 edged sword.
Well, I made it to Stratton, only 190 or so miles to go. Got to see first hand how some of the really nice rock work probably done initially by the CCC boys in the '30 that has been allowed to wash away in Maine. I still haven't figured out why the folks in Maine haven't figured out the bridge thing. Can you imagine fording the James River?hike
My guess is that the AMC foks who actually control where the money is spent haven't hiked the AT in years.
MATC, an almost entirely volunteer group, maintains the Appalachian Trail and its side trails, from Grafton Notch, north to Katahdin. The trail in Maine was mostly constructed by volunteers, though CCC crews provided important help back in the 1930s. The last Maine last link was completed 75 years ago this month. MATC and ATC celebrated the anniversary a few days ago, for the last Maine link also made the AT a continuous 2,000-mile footpath for the first time. Only a few miles of CCC constructed trail remain. Two thirds of the original route was relocated in the 70s and 80's mostly to move the route out of the valleys, and on to the ridge lines of the mountains, as was required by Congress, when it authorized the federal purchase of the trail corridor.
I don't recall any rock work done by the CCC. In recent years, however, MATC has employed trained leaders to work with several volunteer groups to build a series of rock steps to prevent erosion of the trail treadway. You will see them all on your final 190 mile walk if you decide to stick with your hike. You may think the bare rock steps represent erosion. But that is just the way they were designed to be. BTW, I don't know for sure, but I doubt if any significant rock work was done by the CCC in the White Mountains, either. The AT trail through the Whites pretty much followed existing AMC trails.
MATC deliberately has chosen not to build bridges across most streams. We want to keep the trail as wild and natural as possible. And during the periods of greatest trail use, most streams are easily crossed, by competent hikers.
We do provide a canoe ferry to ease the crossing of the Kennebec. And there is a walkway built along a logging company bridge over the Penobscot. These are about the only rivers that most hikers, can't manage by themselves, either by wading or using natural stepping stones.
T.S.Kobzol
08-27-2012, 18:36
I know that, but the point is that because of these prices some segments are shut out. They don't even acknowledge long standing members by giving them discounts, no discounts for NH residents or low income families...nothin...why not give back some love? The hiking of the presidential range is world famous and it is something that NH residents are proud of when there is discussion about their state. Why alienating residents with prices that are higher than Bostons Hilton?
plenty of beautiful areas to take the kids that are free. and there are many ways to hike the presis w/o using the huts.
but theyre also a great way to introduce a kid to the mountains for a night.and theyll usually find kids their own age there so they dont feel this hiking expedition is some sort of punishment.the more people we can get to love the mountains, the more of a pool to help protect it as well. its a 2 edged sword.
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Moose2001
08-27-2012, 18:44
I know that, but the point is that because of these prices some segments are shut out. They don't even acknowledge long standing members by giving them discounts, no discounts for NH residents or low income families...nothin...why not give back some love? The hiking of the presidential range is world famous and it is something that NH residents are proud of when there is discussion about their state. Why alienating residents with prices that are higher than Bostons Hilton?
Hiking is free. No one's getting cut out or charged to hike. I don't see the Boston Hilton giving discounts. If you don't like the price, use your tent!
T.S.Kobzol
08-27-2012, 19:00
You can't use your tent above the tree line (rightly so)... You don't get the point at all. Look at the salaries and the excess money and ask yourself if there could not be done some goodness with some of it especially when we are discussing a Non Profit.
Hiking is free. No one's getting cut out or charged to hike. I don't see the Boston Hilton giving discounts. If you don't like the price, use your tent!
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hikerboy57
08-27-2012, 19:05
you CAN do the presis without using the huts. and without tenting above treeline. just takes good planning, and a little luck with the weather.you're also talking about one of the most dangerous mountains in the world.
its called supply and demand. the huts have no problem filling up quickly in the season despite the "exhorbitant" price to stay. if they lowered the price, youd have a 1yr+ wait.
ive got a bigger issue with met ticket prices.
Just a Hiker
08-27-2012, 19:08
Well, I made it to Stratton, only 190 or so miles to go. Got to see first hand how some of the really nice rock work probably done initially by the CCC boys in the '30 that has been allowed to wash away in Maine. I still haven't figured out why the folks in Maine haven't figured out the bridge thing. Can you imagine fording the James River?hike
My guess is that the AMC foks who actually control where the money is spent haven't hiked the AT in years.
Considering your displeasure with New Hampshire and Maine, you better get off the internet and get some rest.....you're gonna have a tough day in the Bigelows tomorrow.
Moose2001
08-27-2012, 19:12
You can't use your tent above the tree line (rightly so)... You don't get the point at all. Look at the salaries and the excess money and ask yourself if there could not be done some goodness with some of it especially when we are discussing a Non Profit.
Oh I do get it. Any money in the AMC comes from their members. If they choose to pay their execs what they do, that's their business. The huts are not a money making proposition. Why should an organization be forced to support others?
Having said all of that, I'd be perfectly happy if all the huts were torn down. It just gets old listening to hikers with that sense of entitlement bashing a group that does a lot of great things in a very difficult area.
Question
How does everything get up there? Food, supplies, fuel, etc. Is it a mix of people and helicopters like Johns Brook Lodge in the Adirondacks? If so helicopters are about a $1000 per hour for freight. You can see why it ain't the Econo-Lodge.
hikerboy57
08-27-2012, 19:18
its too hard, its scary, its too expensive,yeesh.
yeah its hard, thats the biggest reason i love it. otherwise id hike long island.you didnt think in 2100+ miles youd have a few challenges?
thats what makes the whites and maine so great, that it isnt easy.
T.S.Kobzol
08-27-2012, 19:19
Did I say lower the price for all?
Honestly I don't know why I am debating this. I can afford.the.stupid hits, I did the range a few times...I got no cat in this fight. I just know people can.get more value.out.of things if they just weren't the sheep they are.
you CAN do the presis without using the huts. and without tenting above treeline. just takes good planning, and a little luck with the weather.you're also talking about one of the most dangerous mountains in the world.
its called supply and demand. the huts have no problem filling up quickly in the season despite the "exhorbitant" price to stay. if they lowered the price, youd have a 1yr+ wait.
ive got a bigger issue with met ticket prices.
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hikerboy57
08-27-2012, 19:20
they do discount for amc members
its too hard, its scary, its too expensive,yeesh.
yeah its hard, thats the biggest reason i love it. otherwise id hike long island.you didnt think in 2100+ miles youd have a few challenges?
thats what makes the whites and maine so great, that it isnt easy.
The Long Island expressway makes a lovely fall hike.:D
hikerboy57
08-27-2012, 19:21
and discount for stays of 3 days or more
With all the experts on here, can anyone tell me who is responsible for maintaining the AT above treeline in the Presidentials?
T.S.Kobzol
08-27-2012, 19:42
I am not bashing them but as a non profit membership organization they are more susceptible to appeasing what their membership wants. I am not saying they do not do a good job with their endeavors...but nothing is perfect and there is always a room for improvement. Progress should be.sought after.
Oh I do get it. Any money in the AMC comes from their members. If they choose to pay their execs what they do, that's their business. The huts are not a money making proposition. Why should an organization be forced to support others?
Having said all of that, I'd be perfectly happy if all the huts were torn down. It just gets old listening to hikers with that sense of entitlement bashing a group that does a lot of great things in a very difficult area.
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With all the experts on here, can anyone tell me who is responsible for maintaining the AT above treeline in the Presidentials?
hint- the answer is in one of the pictures i posted the other day
hint- the answer is in one of the pictures i posted the other day
though who puts up those signs is an interesting question i don't know the answer to
coach lou
08-27-2012, 21:57
Question
How does everything get up there? Food, supplies, fuel, etc. Is it a mix of people and helicopters like Johns Brook Lodge in the Adirondacks? If so helicopters are about a $1000 per hour for freight. You can see why it ain't the Econo-Lodge.
I had to go to the dentist after a walk up Keene Valley, I bought so many candy bars from the Babe at Johns Brook Lodge my teeth hurt!
With all the experts on here, can anyone tell me who is responsible for maintaining the AT above treeline in the Presidentials?
Well, this is not the forum for asking that question. AMC and the US Forest Service know for sure. But my guess is that its AMC. AMC has a contract with ATC, which, in turn, has a contract with the US Park Service to provide for routine maintenance on the entire trail -- Georgia to Maine, all of which is subject to NPS regs. AMC's responsibility begins at Grafton Notch and continues south at least through the Whites, I think.
jakedatc
08-27-2012, 23:26
saw a 12ish year old kid at Lonesome Lake Hut today who had made it 1600mi from Virginia with their mom... still had a smile on their face and was loving it.
Also had no problem finding my way on and off the AT in 3 different directions on my "loop" up the Kinsmans and Cannon. white, blue, yellow blazes, signs aplenty.
We'll for starters I would want them to stop separating working family from taking their kids to hike the presidential range in 3 nights. At these prices many NH kids will know about hiking the presidential range from geography class but will never be able to afford it.
Gas prices keep some families from getting out and hiking the Whites. There's nothing stopping those who can afford the gas and auto mileage, but can't spring for hut stays, from doing day hikes. In June, I camped at Pemi East for free - at the cost of a 6 mile, pretty much level, hike out and back, then hiked up and down Washington, driving myself home afterward. My costs for the trip were auto mileage, gas included, food and drink and that was about it. At 55 cents a mile, the auto mileage was a good $275, with the immediate cost of gas maybe $80.
It can be done, much more easily if you live in New Hampshire rather than Connecticut. Manchester, NH, a working class town, is about 2.5 hours to Mt. Washington's trailheads, maybe two to Franconia Notch. Washington and Adams being the toughest of the Presidentials, if you're in good enough shape, a Presi day hike is very doable, no camping required, for a New Hampshire family. All that, and the huts will sell you and your kids cheap, nice food - cookies, soup, etc. Not too shabby.
Personally, my budget right now allows me to drive up and back or to camp for free or cheap overnight. The huts are out of reach for the time being, but I sure as heck love that they're there. Nice place to rest, refuel for cheap, load up on more water. They're a godsend if you ask me and I am pleased with the job the AMC does. Perfect? No. Dadgummed good? For sure.
swjohnsey
08-28-2012, 06:31
No expense is spared on the huts. Everything up there is high dollar and high tech. That said, you will be charged member rates at the huts and the lodges if you tell them you are a thru-hiker. It did work for stay at three huts. Set four mouse traps (and caught one mouse) at one hut.
Folks have to be pretty dim to buy the AMC line that the trails are "rugged" because that is the way they like 'em. They haven't been maintained in years because the money and resources goes to hut. If the AMC can't or won't maintain the trails to some ATC standard put another club in charge.
Folks have to be pretty dim to buy the AMC line that the trails are "rugged" because that is the way they like 'em. They haven't been maintained in years because the money and resources goes to hut. If the AMC can't or won't maintain the trails to some ATC standard put another club in charge.
a new candidate for dumbest thing ive ever seen posted on here.
hikerboy57
08-28-2012, 07:15
I received the a M c news letter in my email this beginning September first you can start reserving Hut space for next summer.
Chaco Taco
08-28-2012, 07:30
No expense is spared on the huts. Everything up there is high dollar and high tech. That said, you will be charged member rates at the huts and the lodges if you tell them you are a thru-hiker. It did work for stay at three huts. Set four mouse traps (and caught one mouse) at one hut.
Folks have to be pretty dim to buy the AMC line that the trails are "rugged" because that is the way they like 'em. They haven't been maintained in years because the money and resources goes to hut. If the AMC can't or won't maintain the trails to some ATC standard put another club in charge.
Wait folks, or thruhikers? The only part of NH I hear is not maintaained to any standard is the section maintained by the DOC. Id like to know specifics. Where is the trail so friggin bad that you seem to cry and bitch the whole way up or down. Specifics? Ill bet you cant provide any...
There is also this myth that people that hike the whites that live up here always complain about the AMC. I learned a little fact from a lifelong resident. The only people that complain are "entitled thruhikers that cry its too hard up here" and that is a direct quote.
We met a guy like you (SWJonny or whoever) in 08 in Gorham. Started throwing his trash on teh ground because "the damn AMC kids get paid enough. They need to do something" When we left out of the lean to, saw the caretaker building a water bar. I made the comment to the guy "now dont you feel like an a**hole"
Chaco Taco
08-28-2012, 07:32
Also during the winter you can use some of the huts that stay open at a very discounted rate. You just have to pack in your own food and can sign up for access to the kitchen.
Finding your way through the whites isn't really a problem for an experienced outdoors person. The problem is that AT Thru-hikers are not really all necessarily experienced woods-people. They have trail legs and know how to run an alcohol stove just fine by the time they get to the Whites no doubt; but for most, this is their only (first) extended backpacking experience and for the most part, NOBOS have had been treated to a steady diet of bright white blazes every hundred yards or so. Walking the whites last month, I caught at least 2 parties of NOBOS that were turned around - - one group on top of Webster Cliffs and the other at Osgood Campsite - - it's fairly intuitive where to go but these areas are not blazed well (or at all).
If the AT is to be white-blazed, then it should be white-blazed all the way. I agree that it would be nice if everybody had some basic route finding skills (they should, really) but to lure someone along for 1700 miles and then all of a sudden say, "sorry - figure it out sucker" is a little harsh. I'd say that a couple of ridge-runners with a few cans of paint could make this a non-issue in a few days.
hikerboy57
08-28-2012, 07:42
Papa Anyone who's done his homework on thru hiking the AT Shouldn't be surprised at the difficulty
" Toto we're not in Kansas anymore."
Chaco Taco
08-28-2012, 07:47
Finding your way through the whites isn't really a problem for an experienced outdoors person. The problem is that AT Thru-hikers are not really all necessarily experienced woods-people. They have trail legs and know how to run an alcohol stove just fine by the time they get to the Whites no doubt; but for most, this is their only (first) extended backpacking experience and for the most part, NOBOS have had been treated to a steady diet of bright white blazes every hundred yards or so. Walking the whites last month, I caught at least 2 parties of NOBOS that were turned around - - one group on top of Webster Cliffs and the other at Osgood Campsite - - it's fairly intuitive where to go but these areas are not blazed well (or at all).
If the AT is to be white-blazed, then it should be white-blazed all the way. I agree that it would be nice if everybody had some basic route finding skills (they should, really) but to lure someone along for 1700 miles and then all of a sudden say, "sorry - figure it out sucker" is a little harsh. I'd say that a couple of ridge-runners with a few cans of paint could make this a non-issue in a few days.
Basic route finding skills means, buy a map and read the signs. There are plenty of them. Im sorry, the AT in the whites are but a small point in the forest. Its a minor inconvenience to the poor thru hiker that has had a paved trail the whole way. You just basically validated that point. The AMC/ Whites dont have ridge runners. Just saying
I'd say that a couple of ridge-runners with a few cans of paint could make this a non-issue in a few days.
its not about an inability or laziness or cheapness to put more blazes, its about a conscious decision not to. one which i understand and agree with the reasons for.
jakedatc
08-28-2012, 08:52
I'd also like to know where on the AT the trail is so unmaintained.. I've done most of it and can't really think of much that was that bad. as for the above treeline? it is mostly solid rocks.. not much to do there.. should they sweep up every month?
easiest 10 bucks to spend. names, section distances, waterproof, AT clearly labeled.
http://www.ems.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3669092
1oz.. use it. i mostly use it to orient myself so I can tell what mountains i'm looking at from the kickass open views. (but yea.. reroute the AT so it is a green tunnel the entire way.. how about into the subways)
http://www.ems.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3661499
Using a map and compass is not that difficult. Learned how to around 10 years old, in dare I say it, the boy scouts. If a bunch of 10 to 13 year old boys can easily learn the basics of navigation then so can most adults. Pick three features in the terrain and orientate your map to adjusted north. Try going into linville gorge without map and compass skills. On my first experience in Idaho I didn't see any blazes.
Jakeatc - Love the idea of sweeping the rocks, it will help keep the escalator clean.
Folks have to be pretty dim to buy the AMC line that the trails are "rugged" because that is the way they like 'em. They haven't been maintained in years because the money and resources goes to hut.
When was the last time you were even in New Hampshire? The trails are rugged, SWJ, because the mountains they climb are. Dim would be to buy your line of rubbish solely on your say-so. Go sell snake oil and lies somewhere else.
jakedatc
08-28-2012, 09:17
I wonder if this many people bitch when they go hike in AZ and there is sand and heat?
Cookerhiker
08-28-2012, 09:23
I've never had problems finding the AT route in the Whites. In my early years when I sectioned them in '82 and '84, I had the maps and guidebooks. The latter described how the AT used existing trails e.g. Crawford Path, Webster Cliff Trail. It wasn't hard to find and follow the trail. When I sectioned again in '08 (part of the Presidentials) and '09 (Franconia), again I had no problems.
As many posters have said, AT thruhikers are a tiny minority of hikers in the Whites. On my 2 trips in the '80s, I distinctly remember only one fellow hiker (a section hiker) who was following the AT. Everyone else was peak-bagging or doing loops or day hiking. It is for these users that the trails were built, most of whom predate the AT.
Nowadays, it seems most thruhikers can't be bothered with buying and studying a trail guide or even a map; they're content with a services guide (AWOL, Companion) and expect a nice wide path in the woods with frequent-enough blazes & signs to make it easier for their thruhike.
Regarding the trail conditions, what do you expect? It's steep rocky terrain! It's the New England mountains. The ruggedness comes with the territory, it is the territory. And the payoff is spectacular - one of the most beautiful parts of the AT. At least the views and setting reward the hiker for the rock hopping which is more than I can say for the PA razor rocks or the horrendous rockfield in VA (i.e. the South) north of Bailey Gap Shelter.
Lastly, during my Maine section hike in '05 I met many thruhikers, all of them young. I don't recall anyone complaining about the Whites' trail conditions.
hikerboy57
08-28-2012, 09:25
very well said
I wonder if this many people bitch when they go hike in AZ and there is sand and heat?
But the sand sticks to my
hikerboy57
08-28-2012, 09:30
the nobos i met in maine all loved the whites. not a single complaint about trail conditions for the AMC. spectacular was the word they used the most. how many were more surprised to find out how difficult Maine is.
I find that the rougher the terrain the easier it is to navigate because of all the easily identifiable land features (Mountains with distinct shapes, lakes that you can see, etc.) Try to do the same thing in the middle of Croatan National Forest with a top elevation of 30' and the only thing you see is a pine tree. It's real fun trying to identify exactly where you are. Without the logging roads it's easy to get lost.
neighbor dave
08-28-2012, 09:37
we had a small drainage problem up here back when tropical storm irene came through, many of the trails up here will never be the same and there's still alot of work to be done.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNTJ7J3KF8
When was the last time you were even in New Hampshire?
Checking back, I see that you were in the Whites earlier this month. You're still trying to sell a big steaming pile. You appear to have some buyers, but not many. Works for me. ...
Tom Murphy
08-28-2012, 13:31
They haven't been maintained in years because the money and resources goes to hut. If the AMC can't or won't maintain the trails to some ATC standard put another club in charge.
This statement is so ignorant that it is difficult to believe.
The huts are the cash cow that funds the trail work.
Read the AMC yearly report and please learn the facts.
hikerboy57
08-28-2012, 14:13
i think sometimes many people here have add.
i think we already discussed all this.
swjohnsey
08-28-2012, 15:36
[QUOTE=Driver8;1330129]When was the last time you were even in New Hampshire? The trails are rugged, SWJ, because the mountains they climb are. Dim would be to buy your line of rubbish solely on your say-so. Go sell snake oil and lies somewhere else.[/QUTE]
Last week? You, obviously, have neverbeen out of New Hamshire. Most places anything less than 6,000 feet is a foothill.
Considering your displeasure with New Hampshire and Maine, you better get off the internet and get some rest.....you're gonna have a tough day in the Bigelows tomorrow.
I now have all the proof I need to emphatically state that swjohnsey is the most arrogant and idiotic dumbass in whiteblaze history. swjohnsey.. there aren't bridges all over the trail in Maine because snowmelt and high water levels in spring wash them away. Plus maybe the Maine ATC (that's right, the AMC doesn't maintain most of the trail in Maine, the Maine Appalachian Trail club does) Plus by the time a thru hiker gets to Maine.. he should be able to ford a stream. Please to us all a favor and take you arrogant stupidity elsewhere. And by the way.. most AMC folks do more hiking over more years than most AT thru hikers ever will. I second just a hikers comment.. get off the internet, shutup and go hiking. You just have to deal with whatever you find.
just a hiker.. I didn't mean that post at you.. I was trying to quote SWjonsey. he is the one I'm referring to in above post.
Moose2001
08-28-2012, 15:50
I now have all the proof I need to emphatically state that swjohnsey is the most arrogant and idiotic dumbass in whiteblaze history. swjohnsey.. there aren't bridges all over the trail in Maine because snowmelt and high water levels in spring wash them away. Plus maybe the Maine ATC (that's right, the AMC doesn't maintain most of the trail in Maine, the Maine Appalachian Trail club does) Plus by the time a thru hiker gets to Maine.. he should be able to ford a stream. Please to us all a favor and take you arrogant stupidity elsewhere. And by the way.. most AMC folks do more hiking over more years than most AT thru hikers ever will. I second just a hikers comment.. get off the internet, shutup and go hiking. You just have to deal with whatever you find.
+1 on this comment! :)
Cookerhiker
08-28-2012, 15:54
Well, I made it to Stratton, only 190 or so miles to go....I still haven't figured out why the folks in Maine haven't figured out the bridge thing. Can you imagine fording the James River?....
Last March, I hiked a mere 46 miles on the Ozark Highlands Trail and encountered 4 fords, the last of which was as wide as the James or Kennebec. And unlike Maine, it was water moccasin habitat.
jakedatc
08-28-2012, 16:19
[QUOTE=Driver8;1330129]When was the last time you were even in New Hampshire? The trails are rugged, SWJ, because the mountains they climb are. Dim would be to buy your line of rubbish solely on your say-so. Go sell snake oil and lies somewhere else.[/QUTE]
Last week? You, obviously, have neverbeen out of New Hamshire. Most places anything less than 6,000 feet is a foothill.
Funny, western hikers tend to get a wake up call on these "short" mountains because the trails aren't graded with 50 switchbacks per mile. (yes, i've been to the Sierras)
Funny, western hikers tend to get a wake up call on these "short" mountains because the trails aren't graded with 50 switchbacks per mile. (yes, i've been to the Sierras)
NPS trails are much different than BLM and USFS trails in general. The trails in the Sierra tend to be NPS trails with its great grades and designed in the beginning to accomodate horses.
Think of the Smokeys vs the Whites. Which trails are generally better graded?
A better comparison is says the Winds vs the Whites or even the James Peak Wilderness not far from where I am typing. Similar grades for trails (or no trails at all in places)
Mind you, I cut my backpacking teeth in the Whites, so I certainly respect them and their ruggedness. But I am also aware that USFS and BLM has much different standards than the NPS trails.
(Also from RI. My great aunt and uncle were in Bristol and we'd see Auntie Lucy and Uncle Corky about once a month. Auntie Lucy made the best linguine and clam sauce..but I digress. :) )
jakedatc
08-28-2012, 18:01
That is what I mean Mags.. saying that because they are not taller in elevation doesn't mean that they are not steep and difficult (in many cases more so than the western mountains).
hikerboy57
08-28-2012, 18:23
Its just another thru hiker entitlement issue.you do your homework yoj™already know the presis are tough to get through without using the huts,especially if the weather turns bad,a.d you already know theyre expensive with limited work for stay.so why the surprise? I think it has to do with the record number of thru hike attemps this year. someone told me they heard over 4000 people started from Georgia this year.
IrishBASTARD
08-28-2012, 18:33
Its just another thru hiker entitlement issue.you do your homework yoj™already know the presis are tough to get through without using the huts,especially if the weather turns bad,a.d you already know theyre expensive with limited work for stay.so why the surprise? I think it has to do with the record number of thru hike attemps this year. someone told me they heard over 4000 people started from Georgia this year. WHO IS THIS SOMEONE HIKERBOI?! OBVIOUSLY their a LIAR and fool...no way in HELL did FOUR THOUSAND PEOPLE START IN GA. DO YOU KNOW on average over SIXTY people would be at each shelter...would suggest you ASK ATC not some smuck. PLEASE ALSO SPELL THE WORDS OUT..."true hiker" it confuses the less intelligent creatures aka people who can't read GIBBERISH BS. YEA by the time ANY thru hiker reaches the WHITES...its a success TRY IT ASS____ instead of your USUAL WHINING. AMC is over paid scum and should be DEALT WITH by the GOVERNMENT and any and ALL contracts PULLED. They fight for these contracts TOOTH AND NAIL...for the unholy DOLLAR nothing more. THE AMOUNT of your posts is insane...perhaps quit trolling the web...and start a GROUP TO HIKE IN NYC AND AREAS AROUND IT. SO HIKERBOI learn to understand unless you hike and have PROPER stats from real SOURCES...SIT DOWN SHUTUP AND GO HIKE.
IrishBASTARD
08-28-2012, 18:40
REMEMBER however its SPELLED were not thru hikers until we FINISH. THEREFORE all your information is wrong...as well as my vision sucks in the "true hiker" remark. ALSO just because you think "four thousand" hikers started in GA...has no meaning how many hit the whites. Had over twenty drop off the first three days when I STARTED OUT. Perhaps hike and bitch...its good exercise for your legs and your lungs.
PLEASE ALSO SPELL THE WORDS OUT..."true hiker" it confuses the less intelligent creatures aka people who can't read GIBBERISH BS. Y
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-_hDGEF2Plzc/Tya4QiV0Q6I/AAAAAAAAAVY/4TcmwhXlack/s1600/pot-kettle-black.jpg
:)
That is what I mean Mags.. saying that because they are not taller in elevation doesn't mean that they are not steep and difficult (in many cases more so than the western mountains).
I think it has more to do with NPS vs USFS and BLM standards than East vs West personally.
hikerboy57
08-28-2012, 18:45
REMEMBER however its SPELLED were not thru hikers until we FINISH. THEREFORE all your information is wrong...as well as my vision sucks in the "true hiker" remark. ALSO just because you think "four thousand" hikers started in GA...has no meaning how many hit the whites. Had over twenty drop off the first three days when I STARTED OUT. Perhaps hike and bitch...its good exercise for your legs and your lungs. you misspelled my name.
jakedatc
08-28-2012, 18:46
I think it has more to do with NPS vs USFS and BLM standards than East vs West personally.
That could be true. I have not done any hiking down in the Southeast/mid atlantic so i can't compare. I was mostly thinking the taller stuff in CO and CA with the 6000'+ comment.
hikerboy57
08-28-2012, 18:51
I didn't say they all started at once. it's what I heard.
in Maine.
on the trail.
from a nobo.
he may have been wrong but I don't think he was a liar.
REMEMBER however its SPELLED were not thru hikers until we FINISH. THEREFORE all your information is wrong...as well as my vision sucks in the "true hiker" remark. ALSO just because you think "four thousand" hikers started in GA...has no meaning how many hit the whites. Had over twenty drop off the first three days when I STARTED OUT. Perhaps hike and bitch...its good exercise for your legs and your lungs. you misspelled my name.
You can change your name too!
:D
hikerboy57
08-28-2012, 19:17
I'm changing my name to Gibson humbucker.
Wise Old Owl
08-28-2012, 19:18
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg275/MarkSwarbrick/watch.jpg
Cookerhiker
08-28-2012, 19:19
That is what I mean Mags.. saying that because they are not taller in elevation doesn't mean that they are not steep and difficult (in many cases more so than the western mountains).
I think it has more to do with NPS vs USFS and BLM standards than East vs West personally.
On the Colorado Trail last year (not an NPS trail), I thought the Collegiate Peaks (Segment 12, first 1/3 of Segment 13) were as steep as any part of the AT except for Katahdin although at least the footing was forgiving. But other parts of the CT were quite rocky including some talus slopes.
Its just another thru hiker entitlement issue.you do your homework yoj™already know the presis are tough to get through without using the huts,especially if the weather turns bad,a.d you already know theyre expensive with limited work for stay.so why the surprise? I think it has to do with the record number of thru hike attemps this year. someone told me they heard over 4000 people started from Georgia this year. WHO IS THIS SOMEONE HIKERBOI?! OBVIOUSLY their a LIAR and fool...no way in HELL did FOUR THOUSAND PEOPLE START IN GA. DO YOU KNOW on average over SIXTY people would be at each shelter...would suggest you ASK ATC not some smuck. PLEASE ALSO SPELL THE WORDS OUT..."true hiker" it confuses the less intelligent creatures aka people who can't read GIBBERISH BS. YEA by the time ANY thru hiker reaches the WHITES...its a success TRY IT ASS____ instead of your USUAL WHINING. AMC is over paid scum and should be DEALT WITH by the GOVERNMENT and any and ALL contracts PULLED. They fight for these contracts TOOTH AND NAIL...for the unholy DOLLAR nothing more. THE AMOUNT of your posts is insane...perhaps quit trolling the web...and start a GROUP TO HIKE IN NYC AND AREAS AROUND IT. SO HIKERBOI learn to understand unless you hike and have PROPER stats from real SOURCES...SIT DOWN SHUTUP AND GO HIKE.
HB your so cool! It's a badge of honor when the honorables Irish Bastard & Roadside yell and scream at you. Roadside speaks softer and Irish Bastard is the one yelling. You see they are really just identical twin trolls and complete each others sentences.
Water Rat
08-28-2012, 19:55
HB your so cool! It's a badge of honor when the honorables Irish Bastard & Roadside yell and scream at you. Roadside speaks softer and Irish Bastard is the one yelling. You see they are really just identical twin trolls and complete each others sentences.
Yeah, you know you're cool when you can bring split personalities together to work in harmony.
Chaco Taco
08-28-2012, 20:18
WHO IS THIS SOMEONE HIKERBOI?! OBVIOUSLY their a LIAR and fool...no way in HELL did FOUR THOUSAND PEOPLE START IN GA. DO YOU KNOW on average over SIXTY people would be at each shelter...would suggest you ASK ATC not some smuck. PLEASE ALSO SPELL THE WORDS OUT..."true hiker" it confuses the less intelligent creatures aka people who can't read GIBBERISH BS. YEA by the time ANY thru hiker reaches the WHITES...its a success TRY IT ASS____ instead of your USUAL WHINING. AMC is over paid scum and should be DEALT WITH by the GOVERNMENT and any and ALL contracts PULLED. They fight for these contracts TOOTH AND NAIL...for the unholy DOLLAR nothing more. THE AMOUNT of your posts is insane...perhaps quit trolling the web...and start a GROUP TO HIKE IN NYC AND AREAS AROUND IT. SO HIKERBOI learn to understand unless you hike and have PROPER stats from real SOURCES...SIT DOWN SHUTUP AND GO HIKE.
Maybe instead of 5 million steps, I think it may be time for 12 steps
Water Rat
08-28-2012, 20:22
Maybe instead of 5 million steps, I think it may be time for 12 steps
Yeah, but for which personality? If they all started treatment at the same time, could they get a group discount?
Chaco Taco
08-28-2012, 20:24
Yeah, but for which personality? If they all started treatment at the same time, could they get a group discount?
How many we talking?
Water Rat
08-28-2012, 20:26
How many we talking?
At least two (by my count...but, I am still new here), but could be a whole group! Not sure anyone knows just how many personalities he might actually have. Hmmm... Maybe he should change his name to Sybil?
Yeah, you know you're cool when you can bring split personalities together to work in harmony.
I don't know, they may be in harmony about the shut up part, but they seem to be struggling about the sit down and hike part, unless they have figured out how to hike while sitting down?
Water Rat
08-28-2012, 20:31
I don't know, they may be in harmony about the shut up part, but they seem to be struggling about the sit down and hike part, unless they have figured out how to hike while sitting down?
Good point...Maybe another personality emerges to pull them on a sled? That would cover sitting and hiking at the same time...
HikerMom58
08-28-2012, 20:40
Well, what can anyone of us do about it except sit around and make jokes about him. We can't do anything else. That's sad... :(
coach lou
08-28-2012, 20:43
Well, what can anyone of us do about it except sit around and make jokes about him. We can't do anything else. That's sad... :(
He did trash a friend and really good guy.....why.......................bourbon, scotch...........budlite?
HikerMom58
08-28-2012, 20:46
I know he trashed a really good guy... who knows why? Yeah, all of the above and more maybe.... I wish he could get some help....
Alligator
08-28-2012, 20:54
I know he trashed a really good guy... who knows why? Yeah, all of the above and more maybe.... I wish he could get some help....He'll be getting some help soon. Try putting him on ignore.
Also, several posters are getting a bit personal with their comments. Please try to remain civil in your disagreement.
Thanks.
I'm still waiting to hear all about IB's thru-hike.