Jim wolf guides worth it?

[Timinator]

You must hate me by now with all these questions but I'm relying on your infinite wisdom to get me through this since I've reached my limits with google.
I recently got yogis guide to the CDT, it had some key information in it that I didn't have before but aside from the town guide it didn't really offer me much I didn't already know. I keep hearing from people (including yogi) that I should get the jim wolf guides if I want to do the CDT, are they really that great and necessary? Seems a bit expensive for the guides alone.
What will I be missing out on if I don't get them?

[10-K]

I haven't hiked an inch of the CDT but from what I gather it's a trail you can't have too much information about.

Were I planning to hike it I'd purchase everything I could get my hands on beforehand.

[Timinator]

I agree but it's like 120$ or something for the complete guide and I'm not even sure what I'm getting.

[10-K]

Considering... that at any particular time on the hike something might come up that you'd pay $120 to know I'd say it was worth the investment. :)

Find somebody that has a copy and ask them what they think.

[Timinator]

Still. I'm going to ask here what I'm getting before I go randomly spend $100. I already have bearcreeks complete CDT database and a johnathan lay maps I downloaded in digital format on my gps and I'm trying to get my yogis town guide into digital form so I can put that into my gps too. There must be something valuable about wolfs guide for me to spend that much money on it.

[garlic08]

Jim Wolf has a real nice route that sometimes does not follow the "official" route but is often much better hiking. I enjoyed Wolf's route the most in New Mexico, but didn't use it much in Colorado, for instance, just personal preference. His written description comes from before the days of GPSs and I really appreciated it at times since I don't have a GPS. I would use Wolf's guides if I were to hike the CDT again. Jim Wolf has been a guiding light on the CDT for many decades, too.

See Mags' website for pretty current info: http://www.pmags.com/a-quick-and-dirty-cdt-guide

First thing you need is Jonothan Ley's maps (http://www.phlumf.com/travels/cdt/cdtmaps.shtml). The website also gives valuable snowpack info.

I also carried the applicable pages from the state DeLorme atlases to get a larger picture and for bailout/fire detour purposes. That was another $100, but worth it when I had to walk forest roads around a large fire closure in WY way off the Ley maps, for instance.

[Timinator]

I already have a digital track of the ley maps but I just ordered the full cd rom. So basically...the wolf guides are a step by step guide to his own route? Like "turn left at the next cactus" kind of thing?

[BrianLe]

I used Ley more than Wolf. It seemed to me that once in a great while Ley wouldn't be right or would somehow mislead or something and Wolf would help, and perhaps more often it was the other way around.

Ley and Yogi I have no question about. Wolf would be the first thing I would drop (okay, and the large scale DeLorme) if I had to leave something behind, but I think I'd go ahead and bite the bullet and bring Wolf anyway. As someone said earlier, on this trail it's good to have all the nav help you can get.

[Timinator]

Hmmmm. I see. Well tell me brian, I'm using a gps and I have brearcreaks database, ley maps, and 24k topo for the entire country installed(including city nav) and I have the means to keep my gps powered, do you think it would still be a good idea to buy wolfs guides? ?

[Danl]

Have got a gps? Use these free waypoints

[BrianLe]

"Well tell me brian, I'm using a gps and I have brearcreaks database, ley maps, and 24k topo for the entire country installed(including city nav) and I have the means to keep my gps powered, do you think it would still be a good idea to buy wolfs guides? ?"

You can certainly do without them (I had GPS with spare lithium batteries too), but if doing it again I think I'd still carry Wolf. Ley shows you alternate routes (practically all the time), and sometimes tells you why you might want to take an alternate and sometimes not. Wolf tells you things. Not always needed, and some content isn't always relevant to what I want to know at the time, but still. This isn't like the PCT or AT, you're more often looking for some clue or some 6th sense as to where best to go next. Wolf gives you a little distance and mileage table for each little section, and his text is more "on" for what hikers want to know than is the case with the Wilderness Press guides on the PCT. They are, of course, particularly helpful if you're going SOBO, which I was. I suspect that less northbounders carry Wolf guide pages, just because it's always a PITA to try to read and reinterpret such text backwards.
I did not find the little maps in the appendix to be very helpful, the Ley overview maps were more useful.

Sorry that I don't have a crisp clear-cut answer for you. I guess if I were hiking again I'd still carry them if going SOBO, might skip 'em if going NOBO (?).

I guess another feeling I have, perhaps not at all relevant for you, is that especially now with the CDTA gone bust, Jim Wolf has done so much for the trail. I liked the idea of sending some money his way (at least I hope he's making some sort of profit on the deal!).

[Timinator]

Hmm, thanks for the info. I think I will skip the wolf guides for now then since I'm already in a tight spot money wise. I might come back to it but we'll see. Thanks a lot

[Spirit Walker]

Carry the book for New Mexico or Montana, whichever is your first state. See whether having specific directions to water etc. is worthwhile for you. It was for us. There were times that having point by point directions was essential for finding hidden water sources. If you find that you don't need it, then you're only out a few dollars. His routes are the most hiker friendly (i.e. water, views, fewer PUDs) but if you intend to stick to the official route as much as possible, then don't bother.

[litespeed]

I section hiked the CDT, completing it just this year in July at Waterton. I did a third of the trail each year for three years, so I always timed my hike for optimum weather. I had already done the PCT so I thought I knew what to expect. I was seriously wrong about that. The CDT is much harder in almost every aspect.

The first year I hiked I had a 2nd hand copy of the Wolf Guide, the Ley maps and a gps. I got seriously lost that year a couple of times. Once in NM I got so lost and hypothermic I honestly didn't have a clue as to what to do. Thankfully, a kind rancher took me home with him, fed me for two days, then put me back on the trail. The next year I got the bearcreek maps and gps waypoints for Colorado and used it with the Wolf guide. I also printed some of the Ley maps because I wanted to do the alternate through Silverthorne. Only time I had problems was on the alternate. I used the MT and WY books with the Wolf guide after that and never had any issues, except having to do a long roadwalk to miss a fire. The bearcreek maps have the waypoints on them and they match what is in the gps exactly.

The trail is not marked or poorly marked in a lot of places. I can't imagine trying to do it in snow without detailed maps and a gps. To me it is a no brainer. Definately the way to go.

[bamboo bob]

I have bought the Wolf books but seeing as I'm going NOBO I think they will add to the confusion. I'll start with the S NM book and see if they help or not. Also some of the books are over ten years old so I'll be a bit surprised if they don't get me lost. They'll be in my maildrops seeing as I've paid for them. For the money it's about a nickel a mile so I'll live with it but I have my doubts. The B&W maps are tough for old eyes and the scale is not easy. I think if I had seen them first I would decide that the Ley maps and Yogi town books are plenty. I have NM set of the CDTA maps and they seem first class. In fact I'll be interested in why everyone prefers the Ley maps. Maybe his notes.

[Mags]

In fact I'll be interested in why everyone prefers the Ley maps. Maybe his notes.

Mainly because, I think, they were the first really comprehensive maps (as opposed to maps piece-mealed by hikers from different resources) for the CDT. Being in use for roughly a decade, they have a long history by our little group's standards. The notes certainly help as they are collection of many years of thru-hikers experience.

The Bear Creek maps are the newer kid on the block. Dialed-in, grade A and a work of craftsmanship. The only down side (depending on your view) is that they show the designated USFS route and not alternates. The Continental Divide National Scenic Trail is, by its nature, multi-use and sometimes skirts areas that are too gnarly for horses, many backpackers and where mtbikes are prohibited. Parts of The Winds and parts of Colorado come to mind. Sure they are others if I did a compare and contrast to the official route vs the popular alternates.

So when people do the CDT vs the CDNST it tends to be a collection of designated routes, popular alternates and make-up-your-own on the fly.

If I did the CDT again, I'd take the Bear Creek maps and select Ley alternates for areas I want to explore differently vs the 'official' trail (the Winds immediately come to mind. Though I'd take the "Chains of Craters Route" now, the history buff in my could not pass up the Gila cliff dwellings when I did the CDT).

A lot of maps to carry...but the CDT (again, vs the CDNST if ya know what I mean) is a journey that is so open ended and so full of possibilities, why not take the resources that will help you make the most of the journey?

If you want to do the CDT, take a variety of resources. If you want to do strictly the CDNST, take the Bear Creek maps and some overview maps in case you have to bail.

[BrianLe]

"If I did the CDT again, I'd take the Bear Creek maps and select Ley alternates for areas I want to explore differently vs the 'official' trail (the Winds immediately come to mind. Though I'd take the "Chains of Craters Route" now, the history buff in my could not pass up the Gila cliff dwellings when I did the CDT)."

This is a good idea, with the caveat that in general I wouldn't want to try to guess ahead of time which route variants I would want to take off of the Bear Creek single "official" trail. Last year two out of the four new map books were out (the southern two states worth) and I carried those AND Ley maps.

It was interesting seeing the process I fell into, which was in general to decide on most nights whether I would likely be staying on (or going back to) the 'official' trail or not. If so, I definitely set out the Bear Creek maps for use the next day, but I always looked at all of the Ley alternatives the night before too, as well as the Ley notes along the official track. But In general I'd be carrying Bear Creek maps for the current day if they applied. In part because the scale is better, and because I was just more confident that the track would be just dead on the money. Ley maps are darned good, quite accurate overall, but I recall once in a great while finding them a bit off from what I found on the ground (or at least convinced at the time that they were).

For those that found a relatively cheap printing service, printing the Ley maps on larger paper (larger than 8-1/2 x 11) must certainly have helped a lot in terms of being able to read all of the map detail.

[Spirit Walker]

We used the Ley maps on our second thruhike and liked them mostly for the hiker notes on them. Those were really helpful, especially in a low water year. When springs were dry in Montana, he showed us alternate routes to water. We printed the maps on 8 1/2 x 11" paper and these middle aged eyes had a hard time picking out the details. But it never mattered. We used NF maps as well, so got access to all the side trails and roads that we couldn't see on Jonathan's maps. And we had the Wolf guides which sometimes gave route alternatives that Jonathan didn't have. Since it was our second thruhike, we also created our own alternate routes for parts of the trail so we could see more of the country. At least 1/4 of our hike was on different trail.

One problem with using Bearcreek's maps exclusively is you don't get access to those alternate water sources. There are some very very long dry sections on the official trail, especially during a dry year. Jim Wolf and Jonathan both give more hiker friendly routes, where you don't have to rent a car to do water caches or rely on trail magic in order to survive.

[handlebar]

I bought and carried the Wolf guide pages to supplement Ley's maps on my 2010 and 2011 NB chunks. My experience was that Wolfs guides were very difficult to translate form sobo (as written) to nobo. That said, the N MT Wolf guide has both a sobo and nobo section and I found the nobo section helpful, especially for water sources in the relatively dry area north of Helena thru to Benchmark. I also liked his descriptions of a number of alternates, most or all of which appear as purple on Ley's maps. We took a lot of those alternates in the Bob and in Glacier and I'm glad we did. This year I also carried the Bearcreek maps and liked them if we weren't doing an alternate. I found the Bearcreek waypoints very valuable as well. Finally, I used OOO's tracks because they also include the Ley alternates. These tracks aren't necessarily and accurate trace, but they were helpful.

[NeanderJoel]

This is all very useful information. I feel like I'm starting to get an idea about the maps now. Does anyone have a preference for NoBo vs SoBo? I'm just looking for the easier of the two options to be honest.

[Spirit Walker]

Neither direction is easier, not on a consistent basis. SOBO may be colder, some years. NOBO may have more fire closures. You'll run into lingering snow somewhere on the trail - either Montana if SOBO or Colorado if NOBO. You'll run into falling snow in September in both of the same states. There is probably more pressure to go faster if you're northbound but there are hikers who finished in December both NOBO and SOBO. I wrote a long essay on the subject here http://spiriteaglehome.com/cdt_northsouth.html but the bottom line is there are advantages and disadvantages to each direction.

[SunnyWalker]

This is a good discussion cuz I am at the point in my CDT planning where I needt o get maps and start looking them over for specific planning. Though, I was thinking of waiting until after the first of the year. Do you fellows think there will b significant changes to any maps from now til then?

[handlebar]

IIRC, Jonathan Ley publishes a list of maps that have changes, so you can check it out to see how many of the 2012's had changes from 2011. It really wasn't a whole lot of maps. The new CD won't be available until Feb or so. If you want to check out the trail, I'd contact Ley, get the 2012 maps, and print them out. When the 2013 disk comes out, get it if you are concerned about the changes. For certain there will be changes in NM and in MT. Also, be sure to send Ley a contribution. He provides a great service to the CDT hiking community. I'm sure he spends a huge amount of time updating the maps.

[Sly]

I loved the Jim Wolf guide books and although I went mostly northbound still found them useful with little trouble reading them in the wrong direction. I also feel with the effort Jim puts out for the well being of the trail is worth the support he may receive from purchasing the books.

[NeanderJoel]

Thanks, Spirit Walker, I actually read that guide week. I think I'll just go SoBo so I have more time to save money. Your country won't let me stay for 6 months unless I have at least $10000 in the bank :)

[litespeed]

The Wolf guides are worth the money - so are the bear creek maps. Unlike Ley, the bc maps show the route where it actually is, not just a bunch of hand drawn lines on a map. Get the Ley maps on CD and plan your alternates with them. I liked the bear creek maps so much that I started regretting doing any alternates - they are that good.

[SunnyWalker]

Thanks Handlebar, I got the CD from Ley a couple of years ago and sent him a contribution. Well worth it. I was thinking more of the BC routes I guess. The Official Route!!???! (smile)

[bamboo bob]

Comparing the Ley maps to the CDTA maps I have to say the CDTA maps look great and I would be inclined to use them. They follow the official route. BUT they do not have the alternate routes. Some day I expect they will be all anyone uses. They Ley maps require printing which ended up costing me three color carrtidges for about $100 but the CDTA maps by bear creek are a bit more maybe $150 ? for all of them/ I forget. They are really nice detailed maps with little guess work. I thinkm people prefer the Ley maps because of the Alternate routes. My two cents: When CDT planning, know who your talking too. People who hiked more than a few years ago have very different ideas about the trail than recent hikers.

[Spirit Walker]

My two cents: When CDT planning, know who your talking too. People who hiked more than a few years ago have very different ideas about the trail than recent hikers.

What do you mean by this? I'm curious as to how you see the trail and/or the trail community as changing. Obviously I have my own ideas, but I'm not sure what your meaning is.

[bamboo bob]

What do you mean by this? I'm curious as to how you see the trail and/or the trail community as changing. Obviously I have my own ideas, but I'm not sure what your meaning is.

Well. Here's my take. That people who's experience on the CDT from a while ago ( Can't say when to when really) 2004 maybe talk about how the CDT is about getting lost, finding your way, not knowing where you are. Friends who hiked more recently (2009 and 2011 that I know personally) talk about all the usual long distance stuff, towns and resupply, choosing routes, generally not getting lost. I speculate that more trail building. cairns, etc. and better maps by Jonathan Ley and Bear Creek. GPS etc has made the trail more well defined. Different, not better or worse.

You know, when I did the AT, people worried about bears, mice, rednecks. I found that to be flat out silly when I did the AT. On the PCT it was all about snow, stream crossings, more bears or at least bear canisters. Self arrest. Water in the desert. etc. All very manageable and not of real concern. So as I've said in other forums what am I really to think about the CDT? I expect to have a wonderful time. I'll be tired a lot. Hungry for sure. But not too worried. I think I have about a pound of maps to carry between resupply, compass, and GPS. I wonder how much of that I'll use day to day.

[NotYet]

I think I have about a pound of maps to carry between resupply, compass, and GPS. I wonder how much of that I'll use day to day.

Probably all of it... There are many places where the trail is not well-defined or even there (this is info from 2012).:eek:

[NotYet]

As for the Wolf guides, we took them and used them regularly (both in 2010 Canada to Anaconda and in 2012 north of Butte to Indian Peaks Wilderness in Colorado). While some of the alternates Wolf has are on the maps, some are not. His description can help you decide what route would be best for that day depending upon the circumstances of that day. Some days we were on new trail and the guides weren't relevant, but I was glad we had them and will take them when we go back in August to try to finish.