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Nameless
05-08-2005, 19:47
First of all, please dont start any arguements about no needing a cell phone when hiking.

I have never carried a cell phone before when hiking, and if i had my choice, i would never carry one. I just do not believe they are needed on the trail. But, I am a young single girl that will be thru hiking the AT this summer (SOBO, i start in 28 days!!!!) and my parents convineced me that if they buy the phone, and they pay for the plan, that I will carry it on the trail, only turning it on in towns. I have them agreeing with me that it will not be used on the trail (and if for some bizare reason i need too, i will walk well out of hearing and visual range of the rest of you). So, now that i am stuck with carrying a phone,

What phone companies and plans have the best, most inexpensive, coverage of trail towns?

Thankyou
Pink

Mongoose2
05-08-2005, 19:53
I understand your parents concern for your safety. I often hike with my son, and for safety reasons I do carry my phone. I have always been able to get service with sprint (either in digital or analog mode). PS, buy a phone with max stand-by hours. I have carried mine and it lasted two weeks....off of course....Good luck with your hike. Above all remember; hike YOUR hike.

Dances with Mice
05-08-2005, 20:02
tracfone.com pre-paid service.

Kerosene
05-08-2005, 20:27
A Tracfone would be ideal, but what you'd really like is a cell phone with a network that has pretty good coverage along the AT. That, and the lightest cell phone you can get since you now have to carry it over 2,000 miles. I'll leave others who have carried a cell phone along the Trail corridor give you their opinion.

Use your bounce box to bounce ahead the recharger. Make sure you keep the phone in a waterproof bag. Shoot for a sub-5 ounce phone, especially since your 'rents are paying for it. You can argue that you'll be adding another (5/16 pounds * 2,174 miles = 679 pound-miles) to your trip, or the equivalent of carrying your 25-pound pack another 27 miles (stick to the 679 pound-miles since it sounds bigger!).

Tha Wookie
05-08-2005, 22:06
The US fish and Wildlife service estimate that in between 4 and 40 million birds die anually from collisions with cell phone towers.

Think about that next time you try and get a signal on the AT.

You are financing the degradation of your experience (and mine).

Doctari
05-08-2005, 22:12
Re battery life

I have heard, no experience myself, that removing the battery from your phone while not in use extends the life of that battery. I turned mine off for the 2+ weeks of my last section, put it under the seat & parked in the shade, it was dead by the time I got back to my truck. It was FULLY charged when I left it. This was a 6 month old battery.

Perhaps the internal clock & other "silent" functions that stay on when the phone is "Off" drained it. Perhaps the truck getting hot did it in. Or both/neither.

I have seen solar chargers for wilderness charging of batteries, some of these chargers were even foldable. Do a search, my bookmarks got deleted when the computer was rebuilt, sorry.


Doctari.

MedicineMan
05-08-2005, 22:42
many many lives (human) saved yearly with cell phones...not that i'm against the lives of birds but a human life is worth more in my mind....just dont do the jackass and yap close to other hikers and i'm sure you wont...when turned off the batteries are usually very slow to self discharge,,,bounce box the charger from town to town....
i was convinced years ago when sea kayaking in the chesapeak area, a paddler was in dire trouble and used his cell to call the coast guard, saved his life AND many needless hours of searching for a corpse

kevin
05-08-2005, 22:52
The US fish and Wildlife service estimate that in between 4 and 40 million birds die anually from collisions with cell phone towers.

Think about that next time you try and get a signal on the AT.

You are financing the degradation of your experience (and mine).

I normally just ignore this comment that gets posted EVERY TIME a cell phone question comes up, but am a bit cranky tonight so feel the need to comment.

How many squirrels, skunks, possums, etc are killed annually by cars on roads? Think about that the next time you drive to the trail. How many insects are stepped on and squished every year by people walkng on the trail?

It would be nice if we could OCCASSIONALLY have a thread with someone asking a question regarding a cell phone without a lecture.

Nean
05-08-2005, 23:11
Good point Kevin. We as humans all contribute in some way to the degadation of our planet. It is too easy to find something we don't do, then jump on our high horses and ride over those who differ. Good luck on your hike Nameless!

Tha Wookie
05-08-2005, 23:22
I normally just ignore this comment that gets posted EVERY TIME a cell phone question comes up, but am a bit cranky tonight so feel the need to comment.

How many squirrels, skunks, possums, etc are killed annually by cars on roads? Think about that the next time you drive to the trail. How many insects are stepped on and squished every year by people walkng on the trail?

It would be nice if we could OCCASSIONALLY have a thread with someone asking a question regarding a cell phone without a lecture.
I'm not going to argue with you, out of respect for the original thread.

In fact, you have a good point.

If you want a real lecture on it, go to the Audobon Society's website.

I think it's been at least a year since I mentioned that scientific study. Boy it sure does upset some people. Rationalizing gets you only so far....

c.coyle
05-09-2005, 06:35
The US fish and Wildlife service estimate that in between 4 and 40 million birds die anually from collisions with cell phone towers. ...

Your basic point is correct. Man-made objects (airports, glass buildings, your own car) kill lots of birds, but "estimate", "between 4 and 40 million"? That means they don't have a bloody clue, and are just pulling numbers out of thin air.

This reminds me of an old joke. What's the definition of an economist? A person who, if you forget your phone number, will estimate it for you.

flyfisher
05-09-2005, 07:51
What phone companies and plans have the best, most inexpensive, coverage of trail towns?

Pink
I have T-Mobile and I would strongly recommend another service. Having had Cingular service, it was better. The problem with TMobile is coverage. I have often had many bars of reception, but not a TMobile service. I just hate it when I get many bars of service, and the phone just keeps searching.

I had this specific problem on the 170 miles from Adkins VA to Roanoke VA this April on the AT.

ffstenger
05-09-2005, 08:03
Cingular has better coverage along the trail. Samsung or LG is the best phone to
get, the battery life is very good, especially if you have it turned off most of the time. your voice-mail will save messages for you and alert you when you turn on
your phone so you can listen to them. Green-with-envy for your upcomming start date.....:p
Showme

dougmeredith
05-09-2005, 08:19
and if for some bizare reason i need too, i will walk well out of hearing and visual range of the rest of you Don't get too hung up on this. Just use common courtesy. Get a small distance from people. Keep your voice to the same level you would use talking to someone beside you. If you leave the phone on, you might try to use a vibrating ringer.

If someone gets upset because they see you use a cell phone, or because they can hear you talking no louder than they are talking to their buddy, then they are the ones being rude.

Doug

orangebug
05-09-2005, 10:01
As far as NC, GA and TN goes, Cingular is not worth the weight of any phone. I've heard better of Vorizen. (I know that spelling looks wrong).

BTW, if you are going to have a bounce box for your charger and such, consider just keeping the phone in it.

And BTW, if you think that providing cell phone signals to hikers is a high priority for these multibillion dollar corporations, guess again. Carry the phone if it makes you more confident for your hike.

Uncle Silly
05-09-2005, 12:54
As far as NC, GA and TN goes, Cingular is not worth the weight of any phone. I've heard better of Vorizen. (I know that spelling looks wrong).
It's Verizon. Close, but no cigar.

Living in the mountains near Boone NC, I can attest to the general rottenness of Cingular in the area. I get decent service along the US-421 corridor between Wilkesboro and Boone, and decent service in Boone itself, but too far outside and stuff gets spotty fast.

Cingular has two advantages though: no roaming charges (on most plans but check your fine print), and having just merged with AT&T Wireless. Both of these increases your available towers without increasing your bill at the end of the month.

In Case Of Emergency: If you're trying to use your cell in mountains with spotty service, and you're getting a partial signal (the phone will ring, or will alert you to available voicemail) but can't call out, hike to high ground. If you have topo maps, look for a ridgeline facing a large town, especially with line-of-sight -- if you can look out and see the town, you're more likely to get service from any tower that might serve the town. The more rock between you and the tower, the less likely you are to get service. Valleys are particularly bad, as are ridges facing away from a distant tower -- you could get service on one side of a mountain but not the other.

Hope that helps... and good luck with your hike!

Drum Stick
05-09-2005, 13:13
I have seen a cell phone come in handy on the trail during a medical problem and this is reason enough to carry one in my book. I plan to get a cell phone to use during my next thru hike. Also if you spot a fire, do not hesitate to call the fire department. Response time is crucial to stopping the spread of fire. Who knows, you just might save the lives of firefighters, hikers and many animals. Regarding your personal safety, find safety in numbers. There are a lot of great folks in the community and for the most part we stick together.
Drum Stick

briarpatch
05-09-2005, 14:48
Expect to be using roaming almost everywhere, so make sure the plan supports roaming without a big surcharge.

As far as battery life goes, at 2.5 ounces, this wind up cell phone charger isn't a lot of weight penalty and would work between charging in town with the plug-in adapter.

http://shop.store.yahoo.com/campingsurvival/wicephchnew.html

I've never seen or used one, just saw an ad for one a while back.

grrickar
05-09-2005, 15:09
I carried a phone to keep in touch with the wife. I kept it off and in the pack except at lunch stops or at night when no one was around. For my nightly call, I'd walk 200yds away from the shelter and talk well out of earshot of others. The bottom line is that if people cannot see you on the phone, they would not know but what you were talking to a friend. To me, common courtesy is sufficient when using a phone in the woods or anywhere - just keep in mind that some people will not like the fact you have brought a piece of the world into the wilderness if they see you using it in front of them. Keep out of sight, keep the voice down and no one should make issue with it whether you are in town or not.

To keep the battery fresh, either keep the phone off or remove the battery. If the phone is on (mine was accidentally left on in my pack once) the battery will die quickly since the phone will up the power on the transmitter to try and connect with a tower. No signal+phone left on=dead battery. We did the stretch from Hot Springs to the NOC last year, and we called our spouses from Bluff Mountain, Max Patch, Gatlingburg and Tricorner Knob shelter. After the battery died, we used the pay phone in towns we ran across.

I used AT&T, which is now Cingular, and had moderate success with getting a signal. My hiking partner had a Sprint phone, and between the two of us we could likely have called from about anywhere - there were times when he had a signal and I didn't and vice versa.

NICKTHEGREEK
05-09-2005, 16:26
I normally just ignore this comment that gets posted EVERY TIME a cell phone question comes up, but am a bit cranky tonight so feel the need to comment.

How many squirrels, skunks, possums, etc are killed annually by cars on roads? Think about that the next time you drive to the trail. How many insects are stepped on and squished every year by people walkng on the trail?

It would be nice if we could OCCASSIONALLY have a thread with someone asking a question regarding a cell phone without a lecture.
May I add with due humility and respect, my additional desire to see a thread without someone suggesting an ultra light alternative, and on top of that for the sake of God calulating the "pound miles" incurred by carrying a cell. Really if someone wanted an ultra light answer, there's a forum dedicated to just that. There are some of us who don't obsess over the weight savings we'd realize by donating a kidney and /or having all our teeth pulled to save on "toothpaste miles".

Kerosene
05-09-2005, 19:36
...for the sake of God calulating the "pound miles" incurred by carrying a cell.It was intended as a joke as a way to get her parents to buy the lightest phone! Sorry!

rcli4
05-10-2005, 00:07
The US fish and Wildlife service estimate that in between 4 and 40 million birds die anually from collisions with cell phone towers.

Think about that next time you try and get a signal on the AT.

You are financing the degradation of your experience (and mine).


I have landscaped cell towers for the last 10 years. In Florida all towers have plants around them. Part of my contract is to maintain them for one year. After I read this post I tried to remember seeing a single dead bird around one of the towers. I don't believe I ever have. The bottom of the tower always has a chain link fence around them that is at least 75 feet each side. If a bird hit the tower and fell he would be inside the fence. I think this may be bull**** statistics.

Clyde

MOWGLI
05-10-2005, 00:15
I have landscaped cell towers for the last 10 years. In Florida all towers have plants around them. Part of my contract is to maintain them for one year. After I read this post I tried to remember seeing a single dead bird around one of the towers. I don't believe I ever have. The bottom of the tower always has a chain link fence around them that is at least 75 feet each side. If a bird hit the tower and fell he would be inside the fence. I think this may be bull**** statistics.

Clyde

Clyde, the problem is severe along some ridgelines. Especially along migratory routes. That would exclude most all of Florida.

Uncle Silly
05-10-2005, 03:15
I have landscaped cell towers for the last 10 years. In Florida all towers have plants around them. Part of my contract is to maintain them for one year. After I read this post I tried to remember seeing a single dead bird around one of the towers. I don't believe I ever have. The bottom of the tower always has a chain link fence around them that is at least 75 feet each side. If a bird hit the tower and fell he would be inside the fence. I think this may be bull**** statistics.

of course the other options are lies and damned lies, but this involves numbers so we know it's statistics.

"between 4 and 40,000,000" is a pretty big spread... i'd bet it's closer to 4 and those 4 just happen to be around someone else's towers. :banana

NICKTHEGREEK
05-10-2005, 06:21
It was intended as a joke as a way to get her parents to buy the lightest phone! Sorry!No apology required my sense of humor must have dulled a bit, I'll work on getting the edge back up to par

Drum Stick
05-10-2005, 07:03
I read that birds see largey in the Ultra-violet spectrum... so maybe / obviously the birds just can not see the cell towers. I also saw a website where they showed windmills being coated with an ultra-violet coating. So the website said, the bird see the reflections off of the UV coating and steer clear. Assuming this is true, perhaps cell towers should be coated and even illuminated with UV light at night.
Drum Stick

MedicineMan
05-10-2005, 07:10
could contract with the phone carriers to paint the towers...be a traveling job, might have to hike to some of the towers

Drum Stick
05-10-2005, 08:08
Hooooooo doggie! I'll take the job! How high are those towers?

My good friend Cupcake who I hiked about 2000-miles with in 1999, is a cell tower structural engineer. He said he loves being out in the country working on towers.
Drum Stick

SGT Rock
05-10-2005, 08:29
It was intended as a joke as a way to get her parents to buy the lightest phone! Sorry!
What probably threw you off was posting it in the Straight Forward Question forum. :-?

dougmeredith
05-10-2005, 08:52
What probably threw you off was posting it in the Straight Forward Question forum. :-?
"This will be a very strict forum. It is for questions and answers. Any deviation from subject will be deleted."

Wow, we are MILES away from that.

Doug

ps. I hope this post doesn't get deleted. :)

SGT Rock
05-10-2005, 11:54
Naw, I moved it to hiking humor.

Jack Tarlin
05-10-2005, 13:01
Without commenting on the propriety of cell phones on the Trail, whether or not they should be carried, etc., it should be noted:

Regardless of what company or plan you do business with, there are still significant parts of the Trail where coverage is spotty, unreliable, irregular, or entirely absent. In 25 days on the Trail so far, I've seen hikers fail to get any sort of signal on at least half of the occasions where they wished to make a call. Be aware that even in some town areas this can be a problem....cell phones don't work in Hot Springs, for example.

If someone wants to bring a phone along, that's absolutely their right and their decision, assuming the phone is used properly and with respect to others who don't necessarily want to hear it ringing and who certainly don't want to overhear phone calls, esspecially personal ones, while out in the woods and mountains. But just as important is this: Regardless of what phone you carry, or what plan you choose, they cannot be counted on all the time and will not always work. Whether it's to stay in touch with friends or loved ones, or to be used in an emergency, cell phones are NOT entirely reliable and CANNOT always be counted on when needed. This may well change in the future, but right now it's very clear: Half the time they won't work, regardless of which plan you choose, or how much money you spend.

Rocks 'n Roots
05-11-2005, 00:48
Assuming this is true, perhaps cell towers should be coated and even illuminated with UV light at night.


Perhaps a giant electric light sign on the pylons that said "ENRON" would help ward off wayward birds...

SGT Rock
05-11-2005, 04:09
Perhaps a giant electric light sign on the pylons that said "ENRON" would help ward off wayward birds...
I hear they are going pretty cheap ;)

Tha Wookie
05-11-2005, 12:28
"Communications towers that are lighted at night for aviation safety may help reduce bird collisions caused by poor visibility, but they bring about a second mechanism for mortality. When there is a low cloud ceiling or foggy conditions, lights on a tower refract off water particles in the air creating an illuminated area around the tower. Migrating birds have lost their stellar cues for nocturnal migration in these weather conditions. In addition, because they are flying beneath a relatively low cloud ceiling, they have lost any broad orienting perspective they might have had on the landscape. When passing the lighted area, it may be that the increased visibility around the tower becomes the strongest cue the birds have for navigation, and thus they tend to remain in the lighted space by the tower. Mortality occurs when they run into the structure and its guy wires, or even other migrating birds as more and more passing birds cram into the relatively small, lighted space. It is important to clarify that the lights apparently do not attract birds from afar, but rather tend to hold birds that pass within a certain illuminated vicinity."


From the site http://www.towerkill.com

Do what you want. I'm not supporting it, and more people should learn about the consequences of their funding.

At some point the educated potential cell-phone user must ask himself: "How many migratory birds are worth this phone call?"

rgarling
05-11-2005, 14:36
When there is a low cloud ceiling or foggy conditions, lights on a tower refract off water particles in the air creating an illuminated area around the tower.
the authors of this 'study' are worried about a few lightbulbs on a tower confusing the birds when there are millions of city lights?

Tha Wookie
05-11-2005, 14:55
the authors of this 'study' are worried about a few lightbulbs on a tower confusing the birds when there are millions of city lights?
have you ever seen or heard of 125,000 dead birds around a city building?

I think the issue of that comment I posted above, which was not one of the 'studies' done by the US fish and Wildlife Service, is paraphrasing the studies that point out that the birds on migratory routes fly into the towers in rural areas, because the towers are the only lights around, so the birds become moths to the flame.

Also, the original study said that this happened in cases of low visibility, when the birds could not see where they were going. Since cell towers are being placed in more rural areas (like potentially in the Smokies, already in Yellowstone, and many other Parks), they create a unique hazard for birds that use these routes.

Imagine being a travelling bird on a hazy night, flying with your flock into the bright cloud ahead.

rgarling
05-11-2005, 15:24
have you ever seen or heard of 125,000 dead birds around a city building? I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean, but yes, buildings are quite a problem for birds. Far more birds die from colliding with buildings and cars than do from colliding with cell phone towers.

sherrill
05-11-2005, 15:43
Don't forget Randy Johnson. . .

MOWGLI
05-11-2005, 15:52
I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean, but yes, buildings are quite a problem for birds.

I have a friend who worked at the WTC - when the buildings still existed. Some mornings during peak migration, he would count 50+ dead birds around the base of the buildings.

Tabasco
05-11-2005, 16:05
I have a friend who worked at the WTC - when the buildings still existed. Some mornings during peak migration, he would count 50+ dead birds around the base of the buildings.


Just thinning out the gene pool that's all. :jump :bse

Drum Stick
05-11-2005, 16:08
That is an intersting information find Wookie... However I said 'UV spectrum' and I am not sure if this light is a problem for the bird navigation... What spectrum of light is confusing the birds I wonder? Regardless, yes towers have lights for airplane safety... and I guess there is no getting around that. I saw the birdkill report on abdcbirds.org but unfortunately I can not open a pdf on my cheesy terminal.

However I think that you are pissing in the wind if you think people are going to give up cell phones. ? Since the light evidently attracts birds like moths, perhaps emergency lights mounted 100-yards North & South of the tower (and not directly on the tower) would work. Just a thought.

If you really care about birds (AND WHO YOU ARE SUPPORTING) then checkout abcbirds.org and find out what the biggest killer of birds is (global warming). Be sure to see what these good folks have to say about windmills! Then tell me what you are doing to reduce global warming and taking money out of Haliburtons pocket. This is not I rhetorical question request.

Interestingly I was wondering how birds see trees so well given that they see largely in the UV spectrum. Then I remembered seeing a cell tower that actually had tree branches all over it. I said to my bro "what the ____ is that all about". Just trying to make it look pretty we guessed, but I wonder if it was an experiment to see if birds could see the branches somehow.

Science solves a great many problems!
Drum Stick

petmac
05-11-2005, 16:39
that will be thru hiking the AT this summer (SOBO,
i am also starting that same day, or will be at Baxter that day. Hike the big K on the Fifth, and be out of the park heading south on the 6th.

As for you digital bling problem, I’d hike with it for a month or two. And then mail it home in exchange for a phone card.

See ya soon.

Nean
05-11-2005, 17:54
More like against the wind Drumstick! Are you a vegetarian Tha Wookie?

kevin
05-11-2005, 18:07
Do what you want. I'm not supporting it, and more people should learn about the consequences of their funding.

At some point the educated potential cell-phone user must ask himself: "How many migratory birds are worth this phone call?"

Based on an article from the latest Forbes magazine, there were 138 million cell phone users in 2004 (in the US). Combine that with the high end of the of the estimated kill number (40 million birds annually) and each cell phone user is responsible for about 1 dead bird every 3-4 years. I think we ALL do a lot more damage to various animal populations from other activities. Heck, even vegetarians are probably responsible for a lot of dead field mice from harvesting.

Kevin

Tha Wookie
05-11-2005, 18:20
That is an intersting information find Wookie... However I said 'UV spectrum' and I am not sure if this light is a problem for the bird navigation... What spectrum of light is confusing the birds I wonder? Regardless, yes towers have lights for airplane safety... and I guess there is no getting around that. I saw the birdkill report on abdcbirds.org but unfortunately I can not open a pdf on my cheesy terminal.

However I think that you are pissing in the wind if you think people are going to give up cell phones. ? Since the light evidently attracts birds like moths, perhaps emergency lights mounted 100-yards North & South of the tower (and not directly on the tower) would work. Just a thought.

If you really care about birds (AND WHO YOU ARE SUPPORTING) then checkout abcbirds.org and find out what the biggest killer of birds is (global warming). Be sure to see what these good folks have to say about windmills! Then tell me what you are doing to reduce global warming and taking money out of Haliburtons pocket. This is not I rhetorical question request.

Interestingly I was wondering how birds see trees so well given that they see largely in the UV spectrum. Then I remembered seeing a cell tower that actually had tree branches all over it. I said to my bro "what the ____ is that all about". Just trying to make it look pretty we guessed, but I wonder if it was an experiment to see if birds could see the branches somehow.

Science solves a great many problems!
Drum Stick
lol... that was a great post there, DS. :D You have a good flow to your phrasing, and really interesting thoughts leading into another. Well thought, well done.

I do agree that it would be silly to expect people to stop using cells phones just because they're wiping out millions of migratory birds. Of course, all that extra power input could benefit the global warming threat. Maybe we could invent solar-powered phones and then just jam in some more cell phone towers in Yellowstone or maybe Yosemite. I don't think ole Percevial thought to mention cell phone towers so maybe we could plug some on Katahdin, too.
In the end, we'd come out on top with less killed birds, so what the hell.;)

Science does solve a great many problems, you're right. It's the technology that gets us in trouble (But fear not tech-disciples, I mean not to insult your god). And I mean that quite literally. Technology is not just gadgets or machines. It is, quoath Webster, "The application of science".

Sometimes, we apply it wrong. We don't take into account the ripples of our stone cast in the water. We simply are doing things without coming to terms with our consequence. The way we apply the knowledge is off, because we are more about results than process. We are not willing to question what is moved forward, because of the sake that it is moving us forward. The problem with a society justified by result is that the result is always in the future. The current moment is left unattended. Many folks are afraid to consider the consequences of their actions. I don't blame them.

This brings me to my point: I'm not pissing into the wind, but more at an angle.

I've made my decision. I'm not telling everyone to give up their cellular tower phones. But I've given up mine. I had a pager once and I figured out that it wasn't for me. I was educated before I would lash on, as the career California life guard called it this summer, "the digital leash".

I guess I'm just old fashioned. I remember the stories of passenger pigeon flocks that once covered two states at a time. I must just be turning into a senile old man; I feel free when I see the birds in the sky.

Tha Wookie
05-11-2005, 18:23
More like against the wind Drumstick! Are you a vegetarian Tha Wookie?
No. the trail has molded me into an opportunistic omnivore.

Tha Wookie
05-11-2005, 18:41
Based on an article from the latest Forbes magazine, there were 138 million cell phone users in 2004 (in the US). Combine that with the high end of the of the estimated kill number (40 million birds annually) and each cell phone user is responsible for about 1 dead bird every 3-4 years. I think we ALL do a lot more damage to various animal populations from other activities. Heck, even vegetarians are probably responsible for a lot of dead field mice from harvesting.

Kevin
Actually, kevin, you are guilty of what's called a Type 1 error, where you use a statistic that is not a valid predictor of the dependent variable (in this case, the unit of birds deaths per capita).

Based on that logic, the more cell phone users there are, the greater the percentage of a chance of an annual bird killing. But this is a bad statistic, because there's no evidence that people talking on cell phones directly kills birds. I don't think there have been any widely-published reports of birds slamming into people's heads (or maybe the bottom of their backpack).

It's the towers that kill the birds. But I'm not saying take down all the towers, good St. Stephen, because what's needed is a compromise: We need to compromise with wildlife. Such a compromise has been proposed by bird advocacy groups, with changes in the lighting systems and locations of certain towers. Do this date, that compromise has not been accepted.

But your right, the individual users do have an effect, albiet an indirect one: They pay for the new towers. That includes the ones in our National Parks, along the AT corridor, along critical bird migratory routes, the ones on the mountaintops, the ones in the swamps, the ones along the rivers, and yes, the ones in the cities.

I've made my choice.

And finally, the better preditor would be the number of cell phone towers, not the number of users. But that population would need to be decreased to exclude towers not in migratory routes, towers with appropriate lighting, and the other compromises that can help us, birds and men, to coexist into perpetuity.

Tha Wookie
05-11-2005, 18:45
Kevin,


i forgot to mention there are probably not 138 million cell phone towers (yet). Say if there's 1000 cell phone towers in the US, then that would mean each tower killed 40,000 birds annually.

a little diffferent, isn't it?

Nean
05-11-2005, 18:53
I don't have a TV but listen to the radio. Should I think about how many birds NPR & I kill ? My buddy took down a meadowlark on the golf course.... something for you to think about LW? :eek: As it has been well pointed out before; civilization takes its toll on everything. At some point the educated potential road user must ask himself: "How many people are worth this trip to the store?" And by the way, heard the FS was looking into the possibility of putting a tower on Rich Mt. Guess I'd like to see Tha Wookie spend his energy going after tha big boys instead of an 18yr old girl asking for advice.

kevin
05-11-2005, 19:45
Kevin,


i forgot to mention there are probably not 138 million cell phone towers (yet). Say if there's 1000 cell phone towers in the US, then that would mean each tower killed 40,000 birds annually.

a little diffferent, isn't it?

Not really...based on this line of thinking, I'm pretty sure that none of the cell phone companies have put up a tower just for me so I'm in the free and clear and can use my cell phone guilt free. I can guarantee you that my cell phone bills won't pay for a single tower.

Since you state "where you use a statistic that is not a valid predictor of the dependent variable (in this case, the unit of birds deaths per capita)" then you are agreeing that whether or not I use a cell phone has no impact on the number of dead birds. If the number of cell phone users is not related to the number of dead birds, then it doesn't matter at all whether or not I (or anyone else) has a cell phone as one more cell phone user won't result in any more dead birds.

All the fun arguing aside, I'm not trying to say that the bird deaths are irrelevant or that cell phone companies shouldn't try to minimize their impact. Instead, I'm just trying to say that make someone feel guilty for the death of 40 million birds because they carry a cell phone on the AT is beyond a stretch. No one wants to turn the trail into a big "Can you hear me now" commercial, but most people carrying cell phones aren't looking for that either.

Tha Wookie
05-11-2005, 20:15
Not really...based on this line of thinking, I'm pretty sure that none of the cell phone companies have put up a tower just for me so I'm in the free and clear and can use my cell phone guilt free. I can guarantee you that my cell phone bills won't pay for a single tower.

Since you state "where you use a statistic that is not a valid predictor of the dependent variable (in this case, the unit of birds deaths per capita)" then you are agreeing that whether or not I use a cell phone has no impact on the number of dead birds. If the number of cell phone users is not related to the number of dead birds, then it doesn't matter at all whether or not I (or anyone else) has a cell phone as one more cell phone user won't result in any more dead birds.

All the fun arguing aside, I'm not trying to say that the bird deaths are irrelevant or that cell phone companies shouldn't try to minimize their impact. Instead, I'm just trying to say that make someone feel guilty for the death of 40 million birds because they carry a cell phone on the AT is beyond a stretch. No one wants to turn the trail into a big "Can you hear me now" commercial, but most people carrying cell phones aren't looking for that either.
Your point is well taken, Kevin, but I see the Whiteblaze community as more than your average group of folks. I think most people are eager to learn new information, especially if it has to do with the very reasons that make a natural scenic trail more special.

And to Nean, I think you might be underestimating the power of an 18-year old girl. They do grow up to be big girls, you know, who vote and actually change things. I wonder, what would you have said to Julia "Butterfly" before she took to the treestand for a 2 year sit that raised international attention to the conservation efforts there (and millions of dollars that purchased virgin trees)? Besides the fact that if there were any 18-year girls on this site, the Billeville ass contest would have scared them off a long time ago.

I'm talking to you, Nean, and you are somebody <sniff, sniff>.

Nean
05-12-2005, 08:36
I do appreciate your knowledge and insight Tha Wookie, you do make some fine points regardless of statistics. I just don't care for the guilt trip. And for you Nameless, stay away from Billeville.... unless, of course, you have 911 on speed dail.

grrickar
05-12-2005, 10:01
I can see cell towers being a problem. And microwave towers for phone communication, water towers in rural areas, TV and Radio towers, radar domes for weather and aircraft navigation, tall buildings etc.

What gets me is inexplicably there are cell towers right next to one another (maybe .5mi apart) out where I live. Maybe some companies insist on putting up their own. There are a couple of large cell towers on the mountain tops around here, but there are many more TV and radio towers.

Something to ponder when you start seeing these cell tower pop up in a community: someone had to sell or lease that land to the company that is putting up the tower. From what I was hearing early on, cell providers were paying a decent sum of money per month to farmers and such who would lease them the land for a tower. The towers have such a small footprint, the farmers around here are all for it. Maybe that is why there are so many.

Nameless
05-16-2005, 03:47
Hello,

Thanks for some of the replies. From what I have heard so far, Verizon is probably the best bet. I'm only really looking for the cell phone to work in towns. Any more comments before I go with veirzon?

Thanks to some,
Pink

And those cell phone towers are going to be there whether I carry a cell phone or not. There are a lot worse things that we do every day than build cell phone towers. What about all the animals that get caught in the plastic rings from six packs of soda? All those vending macheins? Everything in it came from those plastic rings, so cutting your own doesnt make a real differance. Pick your fights, preferabbly ones that can actually make a difference instead of turning my question into a joke so it can get thrown into the humor thread where no one will take it seriously instead of the strait forward thread where it belongs.

digger51
05-16-2005, 22:23
I totally agree with Jack even if he did not let me use the phone to call the motel from Blue Mountain Shelter. I use Sprint and for the most part it did ok in the south. But now I feel real bad as I hit a bird this week with my truck. I hope the Fish and Game dudes dont start a campaign against pick up trucks now.

Tha Wookie
05-17-2005, 03:00
I do appreciate your knowledge and insight Tha Wookie, you do make some fine points regardless of statistics. I just don't care for the guilt trip. And for you Nameless, stay away from Billeville.... unless, of course, you have 911 on speed dail.
No one cares for the guilt trip. That's why no one one wants to hear the consequences of their funding.

I don't feel guilty at all. They don't get my money.

Now on the other hand, if burritos were killing entire flocks of migratory birds, then I'd feel like a real jerk.

Basilio
05-17-2005, 08:14
Wow, never thought something like taht was possible:confused: Still wonder how is that possible...




The US fish and Wildlife service estimate that in between 4 and 40 million birds die anually from collisions with cell phone towers.

Think about that next time you try and get a signal on the AT.

You are financing the degradation of your experience (and mine).

Basilio
05-17-2005, 08:27
Hi Pink, I am trully astonished with the way the fellows aroud here take this problem myself. YOu are completely right about every little thing you said, so don't worry. Things do look ugly when we look at them with our civilized glasses off, but before spranging to blaming eachover we should dwell upon what is each of us ready to sacrifice...Still don't get it how is all this possible, there should be some exageration..


Hello,

Thanks for some of the replies. From what I have heard so far, Verizon is probably the best bet. I'm only really looking for the cell phone to work in towns. Any more comments before I go with veirzon?

Thanks to some,
Pink

And those cell phone towers are going to be there whether I carry a cell phone or not. There are a lot worse things that we do every day than build cell phone towers. What about all the animals that get caught in the plastic rings from six packs of soda? All those vending macheins? Everything in it came from those plastic rings, so cutting your own doesnt make a real differance. Pick your fights, preferabbly ones that can actually make a difference instead of turning my question into a joke so it can get thrown into the humor thread where no one will take it seriously instead of the strait forward thread where it belongs.

Nean
05-17-2005, 09:00
You are comparing burritos and cell phones tha Wookie? I'm begining to see where you are coming from :datz ..... good luck.

Stray Cat
05-17-2005, 09:01
Hi all,
Okay. The times are changing and so is hiking the AT. Cell phones are going to be out there. No way around it. I hate to have one with me next year when I attempt my second thru hike but I will need to have it to continue my business. I will be respectful of others hike and not use it in ear shot of hikers but use it I will. Feel good about having one with you. It is just another piece of gear. Just be considerate. Have a great hike and call me at 603-252-8295 for shuttle and hostel near Hanover, NH. Stray Kat '96

UberPest
05-28-2005, 14:08
What I'm wondering is why is there all this worry about the cell towers. Others have pointed out the damage caused by humans in our every day lives--cars, threshers, radar/tv/radio towers. Wookie, what do you wear and use on the trail? Anything made out of plastic, metal, cotton, fossil fuels, or leather? All of those things hurt as many if not more migratory birds (and fish, and plants, and mammals, and humans) than the cell towers. Are you contacting gear manufacturers to make a 100% organic and earth-friendly product. The best I can see it, there is no way we can truly enjoy wild places without impacting it in some permanent way. Heck, trails themselves are a permanent scar, but I don't see anyone here protesting their existance.

Tha Wookie
05-30-2005, 18:06
What I'm wondering is why is there all this worry about the cell towers. Others have pointed out the damage caused by humans in our every day lives--cars, threshers, radar/tv/radio towers. Wookie, what do you wear and use on the trail? Anything made out of plastic, metal, cotton, fossil fuels, or leather? All of those things hurt as many if not more migratory birds (and fish, and plants, and mammals, and humans) than the cell towers. Are you contacting gear manufacturers to make a 100% organic and earth-friendly product. The best I can see it, there is no way we can truly enjoy wild places without impacting it in some permanent way. Heck, trails themselves are a permanent scar, but I don't see anyone here protesting their existance.
Your arguement is familiar. Basically, here's how it works: You take an issue and polarize it into a black-and-white context so that there is only one way, yes or no. The fatal flaw in this polarizing way to argue is that it relies on a value judgment, and ignores all the gray in between.

You're telling me that I can't talk about a study about cell tower impacts because I own some nylon. Basically, your calling me a hypocrite, or at least asking me if I'm a hypocrite, based on your judgment that anything that impacts bird populations (or just "nature" in general) that I do makes me one.

But what you obviously do not understand is that I'm not judging whether cell phone towers are unnessearily destructive. Events recorded have already proven that. I had already decided not to get a cell phone before I heard about that study. But after I was educated, I was able to firm up my own decision.

Whether or not I use nylon is not the point. The point is that I have presented a study about how cell phone towers have caused migratory bird flock massacres. It's not something I choose to support. You can choose to support it. My guess, based on your dichotomus arguement, is that you already own one, and don't want to hear how it effects migratory birds, so you lash out at me with the (yawn) same arguement that works with people too mentally lazy to consider the full spectrum of possiblities.

But if you have some research about how my backpack materials or sandals harm the environment, especially our damaged and dwindling world migratory bird population, then I would greatly appreciate the information.

Thanks ahead of time. I'll check back for your info.

Nean
05-31-2005, 11:22
We are back on the waves Tha Wookie! I bet you would love the movie Winged Migration- I did. Guess the point myself and others have tried to make is your information and choices and perhaps even reasons, are fine. But if you want to add a trip to your opinion without feeling any guilt about what you do it does seem like a double standard. Are there not radio, TV, internet/phone antennas on towers. It's like you want to lay a trip on someone about birds while taking a bite of chicken burrito. There is a reason Jimmy Swaggard is no longer on TV....

UberPest
05-31-2005, 21:53
But if you have some research about how my backpack materials or sandals harm the environment, especially our damaged and dwindling world migratory bird population, then I would greatly appreciate the information.


Last I checked, plastic (packs, sandals, burrito wrappers) was a petroleum byproduct and leather (also for sandals) was made from some of our natural resources. My problem is that you focus on one aspect of conservation but somehow eschew all others to promote your cause.

Yep, I own a cell phone. I also own several radios, a car, a TV, and a computer, I did return the GPS I had because I didn't really see the point of having it. I do sleep well at night, despite the unclear/vague (or possibly faulty) research done on how any of these affect migration patterns. I do know that my old car has probably killed more birds than my phone, but that wasn't a migratory bird, it was a killdeer that decided to kamikazee me one afternoon (I'm not going to ditch my car to avoid a killdeer).

Oh yeah, and I work for the DNR also, so I am for sure a hypocrite.