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Odd Man Out
09-26-2012, 11:49
In another thread (UL Road Blocks), there was some discussion about the difference between carrying water in your stomoch (i.e. cameling-up) and carrying water in a bottle (presumably in your pack). It has been claimed that one advantage of a filter (which allows you to drink water immediately) is that you can camel-up at a water source and thus not have to carry as much water. Those who use chemical treatments will have to carry their water for the time it takes for the chemicals to work before they can drink the water. It was suggested that carrying water in your stomach is still carrying water and this does not represent an advantage that filters have over chemical treatments.

I would suggest that the way in which things are carried has a great deal to do with the energy exerted and is a topic that is under appreciated by those wishing to lighten their load, where the discussion mostly focuses on counting weight. There is no doubt that carrying more weight up hill takes more work (Work = mass x acceleration of gravity x vertical distance). But walking is a very complicated process. Much of the energy consumed is not just to lift mass against the force of gravity but also to move forward, and how you carry loads does make a difference.

Biometric studies have found that African women can carry loads of water equal to 20% of their body weight on their heads across level ground without burning any more calories than walking walking with no load. This was not true for people carrying the same load on their backs or by hand (in buckets). The secret is that having the load centered over your spine does not disrupt the walking mechanics. In fact, it even improves the efficiency so the energy saved through increased efficiency offsets the extra energy needed to carry the load (up to the 20% point).

http://discovermagazine.com/1995/aug/noskycapsneeded554

Extrapolating from this study, it would be reasonable to expect that carrying a kilogram (liter) of water in your stomach would be easier than carrying a kg of water in your pack, as it will be centered over you center of mass. On the other hand, one might also find that carrying a kg of water in front of you (say on a shoulder strap holster) might act as a counter balance for your pack on your back and make you pack easier to carry (fewer calories burned). So carrying more weight may actually "lighten your load". I don't have any data to prove that last suggestion, but it is something to think about. Maybe I will ask some of my friends in our University's Movement Science Department to look into it. They have the tools.

jakedatc
09-26-2012, 12:04
The other advantage is that if you stretch it and your next water source turns out to be further than you thought or it was hotter than you anticipated and you need water NOW. AM you need to wait regardless of the situation. with a filter you get water immediately. you don't use your tent for more than 8hrs either but that is still worth the weight. i'll keep my 4-6oz filter.

when you "camel up" ( and i don't just mean chug a whole liter.. it could be a few swigs then top off your bottle) your body is using that water. your blood needs water to move efficiently, your kidneys need water to filter waste properly(both of these are why you get a Saline IV when you are dehydrated), you need water to sweat and cool your body, etc. Failure to keep your body functioning correctly will have a reduction in performance. It seems pretty silly to have a light pack but be moving slow and feeling like crap because you are dehydrated.

swjohnsey
09-26-2012, 12:08
I have the ability to carry 2 quarts of water. I usually carry only one. I think I actually treated water (household bleach) half a dozen times in 5 1/2 months. I alway camel up when refilling my water. You will piss out what your body doesn't need.

jakedatc
09-26-2012, 12:16
with my usual set up i have the 'ability' to carry 4L (2x 1L smart water, 1.5L evernew, .5L sawyer bag) but will usually carry 1-1.5 max but having storage is nice at camp to only take one trip to the water source, especially if it is a bit further away.

WingedMonkey
09-26-2012, 12:39
There comes a time in every thru hikers journey where they either try, or at least seriously think about carrying their entire pack on their head.

max patch
09-26-2012, 13:20
There comes a time in every thru hikers journey where they either try, or at least seriously think about carrying their entire pack on their head.

Not "everyone".

And I say that with 100% certainty.

max patch
09-26-2012, 13:26
Extrapolating from this study, it would be reasonable to expect that carrying a kilogram (liter) of water in your stomach would be easier than carrying a kg of water in your pack, as it will be centered over you center of mass.

Absolutely. Don't need a study to tell me that.




So carrying more weight may actually "lighten your load".

Thats also true. A properly fitted external can carry 30 pounds more efficently than a frameless internal. The challenge is to not take advantage of this efficency and carry 40 pounds instead.

Blissful
09-26-2012, 14:09
You can also make yourself quite ill drinking too much. Liquifying yourself, causing salts to be depleted can add strain to the heart and mess up the electrolyte balance.

jakedatc
09-26-2012, 14:14
Which would take a lot of water to do in a hiking environment with the usual hiker diet. Drinking 1L of water over 5+ miles is not going to get into that range, if you drink a bit at the source or not. i also add gatorade or other mix to my bottles for electrolytes and flavoring.

Feral Bill
09-26-2012, 14:15
Say you're climbing 200 M/hour. 1 Kg water would cost 200 Joules in energy. What would the energy savings be having that Kg in your gut, rather than in your pack? I would guess that the difference in energy for different carrying methods would be trivial in comparison. Somebody have actual data out there?

Rocket Jones
09-26-2012, 14:19
I don't have the precise formula handy, but basically it proves that it is possible to overthink some things. :D

English Stu
09-26-2012, 14:37
I find water and food management is a great skill to be learnt on the AT, to state the obvious they are both heavy. I look avidly at the maps for water sources up ahead. If possible I now carry half a litre on a shoulder strap bottle and half a litre in the pack for emergencies. Often I drink my shoulder strap bottle at the next water source and then refill it. For me no great need for lots of water. I treat 2 or 3 litres in camp to evening meal and breakfast. I also drink half a litre of water before I set off in a morning.

Lyle
09-26-2012, 15:02
While most of us "camel UP" at times, my understanding is that this is a very inefficient way to hydrate yourself. The body will only absorb and utilize a given amount of water in a given time frame. Something like 8 oz per 20 minutes. Any excess is just passed on through urine. This is beneficial to make sure your urinary system stays flushed out, but is of limited value in hydrating your body. This is why most experts subscribe to the theory (proven fact?) that hydration systems that allow you to sip water more frequently do the best job at maintaining optimal hydration.

All that said, I do tend to "camel up" when good water is readily available, especially if hiking through a relatively dry area. This is probably more psychological than physically beneficial.

Lone Wolf
09-26-2012, 15:04
In another thread (UL Road Blocks), there was some discussion about the difference between carrying water in your stomoch (i.e. cameling-up) and carrying water in a bottle (presumably in your pack). It has been claimed that one advantage of a filter (which allows you to drink water immediately) is that you can camel-up at a water source and thus not have to carry as much water. Those who use chemical treatments will have to carry their water for the time it takes for the chemicals to work before they can drink the water. It was suggested that carrying water in your stomach is still carrying water and this does not represent an advantage that filters have over chemical treatments.

I would suggest that the way in which things are carried has a great deal to do with the energy exerted and is a topic that is under appreciated by those wishing to lighten their load, where the discussion mostly focuses on counting weight. There is no doubt that carrying more weight up hill takes more work (Work = mass x acceleration of gravity x vertical distance). But walking is a very complicated process. Much of the energy consumed is not just to lift mass against the force of gravity but also to move forward, and how you carry loads does make a difference.

Biometric studies have found that African women can carry loads of water equal to 20% of their body weight on their heads across level ground without burning any more calories than walking walking with no load. This was not true for people carrying the same load on their backs or by hand (in buckets). The secret is that having the load centered over your spine does not disrupt the walking mechanics. In fact, it even improves the efficiency so the energy saved through increased efficiency offsets the extra energy needed to carry the load (up to the 20% point).

http://discovermagazine.com/1995/aug/noskycapsneeded554

Extrapolating from this study, it would be reasonable to expect that carrying a kilogram (liter) of water in your stomach would be easier than carrying a kg of water in your pack, as it will be centered over you center of mass. On the other hand, one might also find that carrying a kg of water in front of you (say on a shoulder strap holster) might act as a counter balance for your pack on your back and make you pack easier to carry (fewer calories burned). So carrying more weight may actually "lighten your load". I don't have any data to prove that last suggestion, but it is something to think about. Maybe I will ask some of my friends in our University's Movement Science Department to look into it. They have the tools.
sounds like a buncha mumbo jumbo B S to me. don't need no stinkin' study on carryin' water for crissakes :rolleyes:

jakedatc
09-26-2012, 15:12
While most of us "camel UP" at times, my understanding is that this is a very inefficient way to hydrate yourself. The body will only absorb and utilize a given amount of water in a given time frame. Something like 8 oz per 20 minutes. Any excess is just passed on through urine. This is beneficial to make sure your urinary system stays flushed out, but is of limited value in hydrating your body. This is why most experts subscribe to the theory (proven fact?) that hydration systems that allow you to sip water more frequently do the best job at maintaining optimal hydration.

All that said, I do tend to "camel up" when good water is readily available, especially if hiking through a relatively dry area. This is probably more psychological than physically beneficial.

i guess i should find a different term for my version of "cameling up" I mostly just take care of any thirst and hydration needs I have for then and for the next bit down the trail.. i never just blast a whole liter or something like that. I mostly just aim to show up at the next source with empty bottles to be filled up enough to make it to the next one.

daddytwosticks
09-26-2012, 16:18
I carry water in plastic Gatoraide or Poweraide bottles........:)

Deadeye
09-26-2012, 16:46
I don't have the precise formula handy, but basically it proves that it is possible to overthink some things. :D

I was working on that one, too! However, the possiblity of importing African women as porters is intriguing, though I note the study was done on level ground... not much of that on the AT.

swjohnsey
09-26-2012, 17:24
I wonder if OSHA would make 'em wear tops?

Deacon
09-26-2012, 17:27
There comes a time in every thru hikers journey where they either try, or at least seriously think about carrying their entire pack on their head.

In the old Boy Scout manual published back in the 1950's, that was taught as a way to relieve weight off the shoulders. The pack stayed on the back but a line running from under the pack to the forehead was used. If I remember correctly, it was called a tumpline.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

jakedatc
09-26-2012, 17:37
They do that in Nepal (and other places). I'm sure it takes a bit of training to get your neck to be accustomed to that type of loading though.

handlebar
09-26-2012, 18:18
If I remember correctly, it was called a tumpline. My memory recalls "trumpline"--- no relation to The Donald.

Hill Ape
09-26-2012, 18:41
Tumpline is correct, wiki told me

Hikes in Rain
09-26-2012, 20:03
And having made one and used it back when I was a kid teaching myself camping and woodcraft from old books, it does indeed take a bit of "working up to" to really make use of one. You can carry seriously heavy loads this way, but you need to build up to it.

jakedatc
09-26-2012, 20:09
but unless you are Tipi then you should never have the packweight that would require one.

atmilkman
09-26-2012, 22:53
I carry water in plastic Gatoraide or Poweraide bottles........:)
I do this too, and pretty much drink when I get thirsty. Seriously though, in the heat of summer I drink about a cup a mile, a 16oz bottle of Powerade at mid-morning break, one at lunch, one at mid-afternoon break, and one for supper. And, I drink about a 1/2 liter to a liter through the night. And, I pee like a race horse through the night right back into those same Powerade bottles and just dump and rinse in the morning, top them off and head on out.

Odd Man Out
09-27-2012, 00:09
"Previous studies have shown that African women carry head-supported loads of up to 60% of their Mb far more economically than army recruits carrying equivalent loads in backpacks. Here we show that Nepalese porters carry heavier loads even more economically than African women."
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/308/5729/1755.abstract (Mb is body mass).

Do you suppose that 50 years from my grandchildren will be hiking the AT and say "Can you believe my grandfather actually carried a 20 lb load on his back!? What a fool"

etboy
09-27-2012, 00:41
Many moons ago i saw those boys climbing up a mountain, down a mountain, round a mountain... well i guess you get the picture, with 3 cases of coke bottles strapped to their heads. Unbelievable. I thought I was pretty tough till i ran into them.
ET

bear bag hanger
09-27-2012, 07:04
For the past couple years, I've been using the AARN pack (http://www.aarnusa.com/) and carry my water in the front pockets, along with a few other items. It has helped save my back by allowing me to balance the weight of my pack between my back and front. As for 'cameling up', I'm not sure it's useful as a way to carry extra water. You'll just pee it away and then you'll not have the water you need before your next water resupply.

Starchild
09-27-2012, 07:48
I think of it more as water management. The body is most efficient when one is properly hydrated, ideally this is where you want to stay. You also don't want to carry extra weight in your pack or over hydrate to the point of loss of performance plus you are still carrying it and weight is weight and water is one of the heaviest things to carry.

What I do usually involves hydrating at water sources well but not too much. Load up for what I need for the next one and drink early and often. This I feel tends to get the water efficiently into my system over time, less 'rejected' water from peeing and less bloat then cameling + reducing weight the quickest. I also think it requires less volume of water then cameling due to higher absorbtion and therefor less weight carried both in the body and in the pack. This method also required a immediate purification method as you want to drink right away and not carry water waiting for tablets to work.

If I do notice the water is passing through too quickly I might have something salty (even a bit of salt will work) which usually fixes that. Also wetting clothes if hot out can save much water that you would sweat and I sometimes will do this when the water doesn't look all that great to drink as a way to conserve water in the body.

Lone Wolf
09-27-2012, 07:59
weight is weight and water is one of the heaviest things to carry.


a lb. of water is much heavier than a lb. of food

Velvet Gooch
09-27-2012, 12:46
Doin' it wrong. You should be carrying most of your water in your cells

virgil
09-27-2012, 22:06
I carry two .75 L bottles of trail water and also a 2.0 L blatter in which I carry either 0.0 or 1.0 or 2.0 L depending on what I know about upcoming water sources. I try to re-supply mid-day some time with enough water to carry me thru dinner and the night if necessary. I usually hike in areas with sufficient water. Otherwise, I'd have to reassess accordingly. Water is always an important consideration.

Different Socks
09-27-2012, 22:56
Man, you guys/gals that are UL'ers!!! I can't believe you've gone so far into this world that you have discussions about the science of how to carry your water.
I agree with the ones that say, just fill some bottles and drink as you go.

atmilkman
09-27-2012, 23:00
I can't believe nobody has mentioned the dehydrated H2O crystals.

rotorbrent
09-27-2012, 23:05
"Forrest Gump: When I got tired, I slept. When I got hungry, I ate. When I had to go, you know, I went. "

jakedatc
09-27-2012, 23:14
Man, you guys/gals that are UL'ers!!! I can't believe you've gone so far into this world that you have discussions about the science of how to carry your water.
I agree with the ones that say, just fill some bottles and drink as you go.

water is heavy. the less you can get away with carrying, the better. I found it hilarious that a NOLS guy on the LT said he was carrying 3-4L of water at a time in nalgene bottles.. when water sources were 1-2L apart.

folks talk about calories/oz too..

you are welcome to carry as much extra crap as you would like to ;)

kayak karl
09-27-2012, 23:21
Man, you guys/gals that are UL'ers!!! I can't believe you've gone so far into this world that you have discussions about the science of how to carry your water.
I agree with the ones that say, just fill some bottles and drink as you go.
science :) there's an App on how to hang a hammock. You-tube on how to walk with poles.
next there will be a tread on about the weight savings and extra miles of having a bowel movement in the morning.

Starchild
09-28-2012, 00:20
science :) there's an App on how to hang a hammock. You-tube on how to walk with poles.
next there will be a tread on about the weight savings and extra miles of having a bowel movement in the morning.

Do you have a problem with that? We all have to learn somehow and if not shown in person at least we can learn online. And what app tells me how to hang a Hammock?

Different Socks
09-28-2012, 00:49
science :) there's an App on how to hang a hammock. You-tube on how to walk with poles.
next there will be a tread on about the weight savings and extra miles of having a bowel movement in the morning.


LMFAO!!!!! Thanks KK, now that was funny!

kayak karl
09-28-2012, 08:34
problem? No, humorous? Yes :)
hammock app (http://theultimatehang.com/hammock-hang-calculator/)

hiking the trail is just life......simplified.

KK

kayak karl
09-28-2012, 08:35
Do you have a problem with that? We all have to learn somehow and if not shown in person at least we can learn online. And what app tells me how to hang a Hammock?
problem? No, humorous? Yes :)
hammock app (http://theultimatehang.com/hammock-hang-calculator/)

hiking the trail is just life......simplified.

KK

hikerboy57
09-28-2012, 10:50
problem? No, humorous? Yes :)
hammock app (http://theultimatehang.com/hammock-hang-calculator/)

hiking the trail is just life......simplified.

KK
is there an app for that?

Lone Wolf
09-28-2012, 19:06
what the hell is an app?

atmilkman
09-28-2012, 19:39
what the hell is an app?
It was the word of the year in 2010 according to the American Dialect Society???????????????????

atmilkman
09-28-2012, 19:44
what the hell is an app?
Down in Bama it's what them there high class hillbillys say when they're fixin' to do somethin' , they're app to do that.

hikerboy57
09-28-2012, 19:47
what the hell is an app?

Short for apple profit product

Mountain Mike
09-28-2012, 19:55
I like 1-2 quarts available when hiking. I figure an average of 1qt for 5 miles & plan my water around that. I also like to carry a bladder for added capacity when I make camp & long dry stretches. On the AT you seldom need the second qt of water but on other trails like PCT & CDT it's not uncommon to go 20 miles between sure water sources.