PDA

View Full Version : Explain to me the light weight benefits of Aquamira



Starchild
09-27-2012, 22:30
Or any chloride dioxide treatment for that matter? Yes you don't have to carry a filter or UV device but instead exchange that for some light weight tablets. But they take 4 hours to purify 32 oz of water. So instead of carrying a filter or UV light, both can be had for less then 1/2 a lb you are carrying 2 lbs of water you can't even drink for the next 8 miles - rince and repeat.

It appears that one using Aquamira will be carrying more water and thus more weight then other alternatives, though it is touted as a ultralightweight solution.

So how does Aquamira really work to shave off the oz's?

buff_jeff
09-27-2012, 22:34
Or any chloride dioxide treatment for that matter? Yes you don't have to carry a filter or UV device but instead exchange that for some light weight tablets. But they take 4 hours to purify 32 oz of water. So instead of carrying a filter or UV light, both can be had for less then 1/2 a lb you are carrying 2 lbs of water you can't even drink for the next 8 miles - rince and repeat.

It appears that one using Aquamira will be carrying more water and thus more weight then other alternatives, though it is touted as a ultralightweight solution.

So how does Aquamira really work to shave off the oz's?

I'm pretty sure Aquamira purifies water in 30 minutes. Also, you don't have to worry about the notoriously fickle UV devices or the filters that have to be cleaned/unclogged.

Kaptain Kangaroo
09-27-2012, 22:44
If you use the Aqua Mira drops you mix the 2 parts together, leave for 5 minutes & then add to the water. The water is ready to drink in 30 minutes (you do need longer treatment times if the water is extremely cold or dirty). So I don't really consider that time is that much of an issue with the Aqua Mira liquid version.

Out of the box the whole system weighs 3 ounces, & if you really want to be hard core UL you can decant it into smaller bottles & get down to about 1 ounce for a weeks worth of water treatment.

plus, I've always liked that it can't break, get clogged or have flat batteries !

ParkRat09
09-27-2012, 22:45
Or any chloride dioxide treatment for that matter? Yes you don't have to carry a filter or UV device but instead exchange that for some light weight tablets. But they take 4 hours to purify 32 oz of water. So instead of carrying a filter or UV light, both can be had for less then 1/2 a lb you are carrying 2 lbs of water you can't even drink for the next 8 miles - rince and repeat.

It appears that one using Aquamira will be carrying more water and thus more weight then other alternatives, though it is touted as a ultralightweight solution.

So how does Aquamira really work to shave off the oz's?

I've used Aquamira for a few years now and it's now ALL I use...the benefits? Obviously it is super lightweight and it take only about 20-25 minutes to work no matter how much water you're purifying. There's a Part A and a Part B...you mix about 7 drops of each per liter and let that sit for 5 minutes. Then add it to you water shake and wait about 15-20 minutes. That's it! It's also completely tasteless unlike those old school tablets and it's much safer for your body.

I mean if you bring a pump filter you should always carry a backup chemical treatment in case something happens to the filter anyway, so you might as well just ditch the filter altogether

rotorbrent
09-27-2012, 22:49
Aqua Mira weights less, nothing really to break/clog like a filter with hoses moving parts or batteries, and it kills all the nastys including virus's no issues like changing taste or long term effects like iodine.

I used it for 12 days on the AT trail in July. Did I mention it weights less. And you are just out Lieing it does not take 4 hours, 20 mins but not 4 hours. So I would not believe anything you stated anyway you allready have your mind made up.

You are just stirring. So drag your heavy filter you bought along but Agua Mira does the same thing. But it is lighter. I did not carry extra water. Fill up, treat water, take a short break and drink. I am kicked back resting and the filter boys are pumping away on the pumps.

Different Socks
09-27-2012, 22:50
I'm pretty sure Aquamira purifies water in 30 minutes. Also, you don't have to worry about the notoriously fickle UV devices or the filters that have to be cleaned/unclogged.

Have used a PUR Hiker on all my long hikes. Never had a problem with clogging, cleaning filter, or anything else. Except for one filter screen change in 1000's of miles of walking, not an issue with me to have to carry it.

Spokes
09-27-2012, 22:57
It's really pretty simple:

http://www.sectorspdr.com/news/?do=newsStory&stype=db&newsID=10148027

Funny, but the UV (Steripen type) solutions disclaimer touts carrying a backup method like Aqua Mira in case of the dreaded red light error or other electronic malfunction that's most likely to occur. Here's what their User Guide says:

"As with any water treatment system, you should always have a backup method available, including an extra set of recommended batteries."

You don't need batteries with Aqua Mira.....

Full disclosure statement: I own a Steripen and absolutely hate it. This is the biggest waste of money on a totally unreliable technology IMHO.

Starchild
09-27-2012, 23:02
I used it for 12 days on the AT trail in July. Did I mention it weights less. And you are just out Lieing it does not take 4 hours, 20 mins but not 4 hours. So I would not believe anything you stated anyway you allready have your mind made up.
'Lieing', you are accusing me of, I call to the mods on this!!! I got the 4 hours from : http://www.trailspace.com/forums/gear-selection/topics/45387.html while researching based on some info on this forum.

It seems controversial at the least. Sort of 30 minutes if you want to take your chances though there is evidence of needing 4 hours.

But you post I find very insulting and inflammatory and I would like you to provide a cite that water would be safe to drink in the 20 minutes you claim or else may everything you say be considered a lie and be ignored.

Starchild
09-27-2012, 23:06
It's really pretty simple:

http://www.sectorspdr.com/news/?do=newsStory&stype=db&newsID=10148027

Funny, but the UV (Steripen type) solutions disclaimer touts carrying a backup method like Aqua Mira in case of the dreaded red light error or other electronic malfunction that's most likely to occur. Ironic, huh?

Full disclosure statement: I own a Steripen and absolutely hate it. This is the biggest waste of money on a totally unreliable technology IMHO.
I think it makes total sense with such a device to carry a backup, it is a responsible thing to say. Electronics can fail, we all know that and I think it is sensible for the makers of Steripen to state that considering the nature of the device. That does not change the equation, carrying enough backup to get you to a place where you can resupply your water purification device does not negate the device.

Darwin13
09-27-2012, 23:10
Im trying to conivnce myself to just bring aquamira but i love my ice clean filtered water so much. no slime or debris but obviously heavier. might match with sawyer squeeze

Odd Man Out
09-27-2012, 23:13
... Also, you don't have to worry about the ... filters that have to be cleaned/unclogged.


If you use the Aqua Mira drops you mix the 2 parts together, leave for 5 minutes & then add to the water. The water is ready to drink in 30 minutes (you do need longer treatment times if the water is extremely cold or dirty).

I seems to me that taking a few minutes to back flush a filter ever few days is actually less trouble than the daily process for using AM as described by Kaptain. And I can't say that I have seen any evidence of the often cited clogging problem of filters that are back flushed every few days.

Starchild
09-27-2012, 23:15
Aqua Mira weights less, nothing really to break/clog like a filter with hoses moving parts or batteries, and it kills all the nastys including virus's no issues like changing taste or long term effects like iodine.

I used it for 12 days on the AT trail in July. Did I mention it weights less. And you are just out Lieing it does not take 4 hours, 20 mins but not 4 hours. So I would not believe anything you stated anyway you allready have your mind made up.

You are just stirring. So drag your heavy filter you bought along but Agua Mira does the same thing. But it is lighter. I did not carry extra water. Fill up, treat water, take a short break and drink. I am kicked back resting and the filter boys are pumping away on the pumps.
This post Reported

booney_1
09-27-2012, 23:23
I believe the 4 hours is required to fully kill heavy concentrations of cryptosporidium. Unless you are dealing with known "bad" water 30 minutes is fine. FEMA recommends 30 minutes when using bleach. People like the tablets because filters are a pain. Not only do they take forever, but they WILL clog even if you are careful. They are heavy. The UV pens seem great, but if you check with people, you find a lot of failures in the field.

I know don't about the AT outside NC and VA, but most of the springs in NC are beautiful. When they water is flowing strongly out of a pipe properly placed in the ground, you don't need to treat it at all. (if you get water out of the pool underneath the pipe...you need to treat...)

jakedatc
09-27-2012, 23:25
4 hours i believe is the TABLET form of Aquamira.. almost always people are talking about the DROPS. repackaged it is pretty damn light. you can even get a tiny black bottle to premix your drops that will last all day, enough for a few treatments.

I stick with my Sawyer squeeze because i prefer to not have to wait and accept a few ounces more for that.

Starchild
09-27-2012, 23:43
I know don't about the AT outside NC and VA, but most of the springs in NC are beautiful. When they water is flowing strongly out of a pipe properly placed in the ground, you don't need to treat it at all. (if you get water out of the pool underneath the pipe...you need to treat...)

This is what I was wondering, if the really UL hikers simply forgoes the purification unless it is obviously needed in which case AM seems like the obvious choice. Or perhaps uses the AM as simply a 'formality' in water sources I would not even consider purifying.

elkie-girl
09-27-2012, 23:44
Or any chloride dioxide treatment for that matter? Yes you don't have to carry a filter or UV device but instead exchange that for some light weight tablets. But they take 4 hours to purify 32 oz of water. So instead of carrying a filter or UV light, both can be had for less then 1/2 a lb you are carrying 2 lbs of water you can't even drink for the next 8 miles - rince and repeat.

It appears that one using Aquamira will be carrying more water and thus more weight then other alternatives, though it is touted as a ultralightweight solution.

So how does Aquamira really work to shave off the oz's?

I think the biggest benefit of Aquamira is on PCT where you have to carry enough water anyways.
4 hrs should not be the issue, just either rotate your bottles or purify your water over night.
The tablets are light weight enough to be a good backup.

Starchild
09-27-2012, 23:52
Im trying to conivnce myself to just bring aquamira but i love my ice clean filtered water so much. no slime or debris but obviously heavier. might match with sawyer squeeze

I would say if you love that water as you obtain it that much go with what feels right for you.

MuddyWaters
09-27-2012, 23:56
Water treatment is complicated, because nothing is perfect. There is no perfect way to filter everything, or kill everything. Reduction is what we accomplish, of certain things.

But fortunately, we dont need perfect. Much of the time we dont need anything at all. Most cases of people getting sick are probably not from water at all, even though thats what it is attributed to.

The long 4 hr time is for Crypto, which is rare, in EPA type II water, cold , cloudy, and highly loaded.
This is what tablets were EPA certified for, so that is what the directions HAVE to say.
Drops have not been certified due to difficulty in getting exact ClO2 ppm by the mixing method, some escapes.

The advantage to drops is you dont have to add any more than you want to, seeing as how most water we drink hiking is pretty pure anyway.
A set with 2-10ml dropper bottles, and a 3ml dropper bottle , with enough AM for a week (at full dosage) weighs 1.25 oz.
By adding less, it can last a lot longer. I usually add maybe half-2/3, and wait 15 min.
I mix my AM in the morning in a 3ml dropper, and it holds enough for at least one days water 4-5L at the dosage I add it to good water.
When fill up, just drop 10 drops in (instead of 20), and shake, and on your way. If Im not taking a break, Ill be 10 min down the trail before many have their filter out of their pack.

filters are notorious for clogging, and then not backfllushing . they all work great in clean water. When you HAVE to filter dingy water, they will clog up.
A few wks ago some other hikers were filtering water at Tricorner Knob in GSMNP. As soon as started filtering the water with very slight orange tint, the filter clogged. This was iron oxide in the water from the dirt/rocks the water was running thru. It would not backflush either. Another hiker left them some AM so the they could have water next 15 miles out of the park.

Starchild
09-28-2012, 00:14
Water treatment is complicated, because nothing is perfect. There is no perfect way to filter everything, or kill everything. Reduction is what we accomplish, of certain things.

But fortunately, we dont need perfect. Much of the time we dont need anything at all. Most cases of people getting sick are probably not from water at all, even though thats what it is attributed to.

The long 4 hr time is for Crypto, which is rare, in EPA type II water, cold , cloudy, and highly loaded.
This is what tablets were EPA certified for, so that is what the directions HAVE to say.
Drops have not been certified due to difficulty in getting exact ClO2 ppm by the mixing method, some escapes.

The advantage to drops is you dont have to add any more than you want to, seeing as how most water we drink hiking is pretty pure anyway.
A set with 2-10ml dropper bottles, and a 3ml dropper bottle , with enough AM for a week (at full dosage) weighs 1.25 oz.
By adding less, it can last a lot longer. I usually add maybe half-2/3, and wait 15 min.
I mix my AM in the morning in a 3ml dropper, and it holds enough for at least one days water 4-5L at the dosage I add it to good water.
When fill up, just drop 10 drops in (instead of 20), and shake, and on your way. If Im not taking a break, Ill be 10 min down the trail before many have their filter out of their pack.

filters are notorious for clogging, and then not backfllushing . they all work great in clean water. When you HAVE to filter dingy water, they will clog up.
A few wks ago some other hikers were filtering water at Tricorner Knob in GSMNP. As soon as started filtering the water with very slight orange tint, the filter clogged. This was iron oxide in the water from the dirt/rocks the water was running thru. It would not backflush either. Another hiker left them some AM so the they could have water next 15 miles out of the park.
It was very good and heartening that some hikers left a workable way to have clean water for others I really like this and try to do the same. There is not a one size fits all solution to anything as far as I am concerned and you simply can't be prepared for everything but be prepared as you see it and be willing to share with others who thought the same but choose a different method.

I really do appreciate you post especially the part where you decide how much purifications is needed, I really think we could all use more of that level of common sense.

Monkeywrench
09-28-2012, 05:53
And you are just out Lieing it does not take 4 hours, 20 mins but not 4 hours. So I would not believe anything you stated anyway you allready have your mind made up.

Starchild is not lying; the tablets do take 4 hours, which is exactly what he stated. Maybe he just didn't know about the liquid.

English Stu
09-28-2012, 06:13
On my first section hike I had a Katahdin filter which I put in the first hiker box I came across after seeing Aqua Mira liquid. I do carry a few AM tabs for overnight use. I have DrinkSafe bottle filter for on the go use, so rarely carry more than a litre of water.

daddytwosticks
09-28-2012, 07:13
Good points above. Been using AM liquid now for 7 years. As I've said before, I like simple things. AM liquid is a simple thing...nothing to break. Yes, you must learn how to manage your water wrt the time it takes the liquid AM to do it's thing, etc. I'll probably never go back to a filter. :)

Don H
09-28-2012, 07:19
I've seen AM bottles split across the bottom and leak.

I use AM and also on occasion a Steri Pen but I always carry back up for the SP.

With AM you can double the dose and half the time or half the dose and double the time for treatment.

Here's a good article by Dr. Ryan Jordan of Backpackinglight.com
http://www.aquamira.com/bpl_2_efficacy-of-water.pdf

peakbagger
09-28-2012, 07:55
I used to use polarpure iodine for several years. I and other folks got the "runs" from it and I expect the reason was the residual was killing off the good bacteria in the stomach. It also had a signficant taste. I switched to Aquamira and never had any digestive issues afterwards. The chlorine Dioxide in Aquamira breaks down rapidly so by the time you have waited the proper period of time, its broken down. I have also used filters over the years and occasionally would use them when weight wasnt an issue, eventually I realized that aquamira is so much lighter and easy to use that I only use it now. I like to take a break for five minutes every hour so the 5 minute mixing time isnt an issue with me. One of the other chlorine dioxide products used to recomend premixing a days worth of chlorine dioxide and using that during the day, then recharging the bottle the next morning but I am not aware if the company is still around

MuddyWaters
09-28-2012, 08:19
Its easy to be confused by tablets stating 4 hrs required, and drops stating 20 min. They are the same though.

The tablets are easy to get an exact ppm level of ClO2 with when added to 1L water. They have been EPA certified to treat a dirty water standard. The 4hrs is the time to meet the stringent EPA standard,with cryptosporidium taking the longest to kill.

Drops are not certified, because the mixing process allows ClO2 to escape. Its a bit more variable and difficult to ensure exact ClO2. This is why the drops dont claim to purify water. They say something like "enhance taste, kill odor causing bacteria". But ClO2 is ClO2, and it works the same, in the same concentration.

They both take the same time, to do the same thing. Tablets take a few min longer to dissolve obviously, but thats it.

Obviously McNett cannot recommend premixing the way many do it. ClO2 is lost from the solution rapidly, the 5 min time is where the ClO2 of the mixture has reached a maximum, so thats when its supposed to be added to water. ClO2 is unstable and UV light decomposes it , in addition to loss from solution by vaporization. However, experience is that sealed up in a small opaque dropper bottle, it maintains the deep yellow color (indicative of ClO2) at least a day without much loss. Since we really dont need the average level added anyway for very clean water, many people have no issues doing the premix route for convenience. When you encounter a questionable water source, lake, stagnant , etc you usually treat a lot more heavily than average.

Starchild
09-28-2012, 09:08
Thanks for the input, and info of the tablet and the drops as well as the time required and the conditions based on those times. Like so many things it's how it works in actual usage for the person in real world conditions. To me the 4 hrs is not a option for a standard water resupply.

The 30 minutes is doable and seems how most take it. Though it would seem to change water re-supply planning and hydration. You need to plan to your next water + 30 minutes with AM. More something of note then anything critical. Coming from using the UV pen going to just AM would change how I would use water. Right now getting to water with the UV pen means drink all you want then figure out how much you want to carry to make the next one. This is how I typically use it. And I have developed a strategy to minimize water weight carried based on that so switching to just AM would be learning new methods and hydration planning.

Also to the comments of needed a backup system with pumps/UV, one should also have a backup method with AM and I assume most hikers who use AM do carry a backup. In all 3 cases if the primary one fails, such as the pump breaks the batteries die, or the AM tablet or drops falls to the ground and is lost many will carry tablets or AM drops as a contingency. The carrying of this contingency is just hidden for those who use AM as their primary method as AM is their backup method as well. So I don't take it as any great loss of needing to carry a backup method as basically everyone does and for backup AM is a great choice.

So I do understand AM more, though still at 30 minutes I still question any weight savings since you lose the 'drink all you want then decide how much you need' at the water source ability , it might be something to try in actual conditions to really figure it out.

swjohnsey
09-28-2012, 10:09
The need to treat water is over-blown, IMHO. I see no rational need to treat water comin' out the side of a mountain. I only treated water a dozen or so times in 5 1/2 months (with household bleach). Regular chlorine (in various forms) is what most cities use to disinfect their water. I used iodine tablets to treat water in the field for about 20 years and never got sick. I also drank water straight out of the Mississippi for 2 1/2 months treating only with bleach and never got sick. The only side effect was that I now glow in the dark and don't really need a headlamp.

If you treat water with chemicals, the time it takes is temperature dependent, cold water takes longer

Blissful
09-28-2012, 11:00
Water using aqua mira drops is actually ready in 15 minutes, not 30 unless the water is overly cloudy or extra cold. I've used it for 4000 plus miles. No issues.

Namaste
09-28-2012, 11:10
I like AM drops. I've used them for many years and find it simple. I've watched people fuss with their filters...not for me.

Ktaadn
09-28-2012, 11:52
I love my Sawyer Squeeze. With the 64oz bag it weighs 3.4 ounces. I haven't had any issues with it clogging.

I don't want to have to add chemicals to my water. Any long term studies on what that does to you?

chiefduffy
09-28-2012, 11:55
The need to treat water is over-blown, IMHO. I see no rational need to treat water comin' out the side of a mountain.

+ 1. No real need to overthink this. I have been using aquamira when water source is questionable for many years. The only time I had a problem was once when I used too much, and subsequently ran out of toilet paper. I don't see a need to filter water in most AT springs. Sweet, cool spring water with NO chemicals is a blessing...why screw it up?

Rocket Jones
09-28-2012, 12:02
I don't want to have to add chemicals to my water. Any long term studies on what that does to you?

Yeah, millions of Americans have been drinking treated tap water for years.

joshuasdad
09-28-2012, 12:02
Just used a Sawyer squeeze over the weekend, and will be using that as a primary system, with Katadhin tablets as backup. This discussion helps that decision.

The OP makes a good point about the ability to camel with a filtration system. Most water sources are naturally at low points, so this means that you are carrying that AM water on your back, as opposed to in your stomach, up that next hill. Same weight, but I am pretty sure you will feel lighter without the extra weight in the pack. The convenience of being able to drink about as fast as you fill the squeeze bottle is worth the couple extra ounces to me. And after you consider the camel point, is it really a couple extra ounces?

A liter which could be otherwise cameled is 2 lbs. Which means 2 to 4 times per day, i.e., after each water stop, you are carrying an extra 2 pounds on your back up the next hill. With a Sawyer squeeze only being 3 oz or so (which is pretty close to an out of box AM system), it is pretty clear that one cameling at water stops has on average about the same, or even less , pack weight than an AM only user.

Of course there are more issues than weight at play, and it is ultimately a personal choice that needs to be modified based on the conditions. For example, I will be at Tricorner knob in late November. A Sawyer may be a bad idea, as it could clog (according to a post above) and the filter may be subject to freezing damage if I do not take precautions. I'll be sure to have plenty of tablets, and extra fuel (for the old school method of purification) just in case.

Rocket Jones
09-28-2012, 12:03
Also to the comments of needed a backup system with pumps/UV, one should also have a backup method with AM and I assume most hikers who use AM do carry a backup.

My backup for AM is boiling water.

Moose2001
09-28-2012, 12:14
The need to treat water is over-blown, IMHO. I see no rational need to treat water comin' out the side of a mountain. I only treated water a dozen or so times in 5 1/2 months (with household bleach). Regular chlorine (in various forms) is what most cities use to disinfect their water. I used iodine tablets to treat water in the field for about 20 years and never got sick. I also drank water straight out of the Mississippi for 2 1/2 months treating only with bleach and never got sick. The only side effect was that I now glow in the dark and don't really need a headlamp.

If you treat water with chemicals, the time it takes is temperature dependent, cold water takes longer

Sorry...that's just misinformation. Most cities DO NOT use straight cholrine to disinfect their water. They use cholrine dioxide which is what AM is. Cholrine, or bleach, does a very poor job of killing the two things hikers are most concerned about.

Here's a good link to a CDC page that does a great job of laying out the most common forms of water treatment (bleach, AM, filters, steripens) and the effectiveness of each. Once you have the facts, make your own informed decision.

Moose2001
09-28-2012, 12:14
sorry...forgot the link! DUH!!! http://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/drinking/travel/backcountry_water_treatment.html

Drybones
09-28-2012, 12:24
'Lieing', you are accusing me of, I call to the mods on this!!! I got the 4 hours from : http://www.trailspace.com/forums/gear-selection/topics/45387.html while researching based on some info on this forum.

It seems controversial at the least. Sort of 30 minutes if you want to take your chances though there is evidence of needing 4 hours.

But you post I find very insulting and inflammatory and I would like you to provide a cite that water would be safe to drink in the 20 minutes you claim or else may everything you say be considered a lie and be ignored.

The following is what the directions on the bottle say: "Shake to mix. Let stand for 15 minutes. If water is very cold, cloudy or tinted, let stand for 30 minutes." When all else fails, follow directions.

Starchild
09-28-2012, 13:06
Moose2001 (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/member.php?283-Moose2001) Thanks that was a very good link to CDC site, unfortunately does not really go into UV much except to say lack of independent testing data which that alone has it's own issues.

To some other comments: City water supplies have the advantage of long to very long contact times, the time it takes for the water to travel to the user is taken advantage of as well as the effects of residual chemicals in the water to prevent recontamination on the way. Because the contact time is so great they can get away with a smaller amount of chemicals then backwoods situations - so I am not sure they are directly comparable. But even still UV light can work for city water. Here is a interesting link about NYC water reducing chemicals by using UV treatment http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=clean-water-technology

UV is also used in wastewater treatment so I suspect water cloudiness is not such a problem as the CDC article mentions.


A good point was made for AM if your primary method of purification is drinking untreated natural springwater that needs no treatment, in that i can see using AM as a weight savings only if used as a backup.

swjohnsey
09-28-2012, 13:46
Sorry...that's just misinformation. Most cities DO NOT use straight cholrine to disinfect their water. They use cholrine dioxide which is what AM is. Cholrine, or bleach, does a very poor job of killing the two things hikers are most concerned about.

Here's a good link to a CDC page that does a great job of laying out the most common forms of water treatment (bleach, AM, filters, steripens) and the effectiveness of each. Once you have the facts, make your own informed decision.

Don't know about "most". I do know that some municipal water supplies use chlorine in the form of chlorine gas. Not long ago that was most. Talked to the guy who runs Sterling Hotel, using well water. Told me that the state made him treat his water with chlorine bleach. Most methods of treating water on the trail "work" because no treatment is necessary.

Odd Man Out
09-28-2012, 17:51
Aqua Mira weights less, nothing really to break/clog like a filter with hoses moving parts or batteries, and it kills all the nastys including virus's no issues like changing taste or long term effects like iodine. ...

And for the record, two full bottles of AM weigh the same as a Sawyer Squeeze filter. And the filter has no hoses or moving parts.

MuddyWaters
09-28-2012, 18:39
And for the record, two full bottles of AM weigh the same as a Sawyer Squeeze filter. And the filter has no hoses or moving parts.

Most people repackage AM into small dropper bottles. About a total wt of 1.25 oz including containers for a week. So the average wt carried is only 0.65 oz. Using less, it can last even longer. The sawyer filter weighs 4.5oz wet, not including the bags and means for backflushing, whether that be syringe or tornado tube and another bag, etc.

I have a Sawyer, I was one of the first round to buy it. Never use it, just AM. My backup plan with AM on the AT is nothing. Elsewhere, it is to share my sons or buddys AM.

Its all pissing in the wind anyway, 95% of water on the AT doesnt even need to be treated, as many are living proof of!

Starchild
09-28-2012, 18:58
Most people repackage AM into small dropper bottles. About a total wt of 1.25 oz including containers for a week. So the average wt carried is only 0.65 oz.

Not sure this average can be correct, this does not appear to include that the weight of the container itself as that does not decrease, or perhaps the container weight is .05 oz? Either way it does include carrying the full amount of water an extra 15-30 minutes before you can have any, and that is extra weight on your back.


Its all pissing in the wind anyway, 95% of water on the AT doesnt even need to be treated, as many are living proof of!
The actual need for treatment is not really that important, but more if it's going to be treated what method one would use. If someone is going to treat everything then that is how they must decide their method, regardless of actual need to do so.

MuddyWaters
09-28-2012, 19:48
Not sure this average can be correct, this does not appear to include that the weight of the container itself as that does not decrease, or perhaps the container weight is .05 oz? Either way it does include carrying the full amount of water an extra 15-30 minutes before you can have any, and that is extra weight on your back.


The containers I use weigh 0.33oz, so the avg would be 0.79 oz carried wt.

Most people take a break at water sources , since they need to stop there anyway. The arguement that you HAVE to carry water for 15 min is ridiculous. But rest assured, you DO have to carry that heavier filter 100% of the time. Usually, I stop once per day for water unless its just unreasonably hot. In most cases I dont even take pack off to get water. By the time someone else takes off pack, gets the filter and stuff out, and filters water, a good chunk of that 15 min (or more) has passed.

No one manages their water very precisely unless they are CERTAIN of the next water source condition and distance, which is not very often. Even then, Im not going to plan to stop at every water source, that would be ridiculous too. Carry what you are willing to carry.

Just dont pretend that carrying a filter, makes your pack any lighter. All you are doing is inventing dubious scenarios by which you can justify it. There are good reasons to use a filter, weight however, is not one of them.

swamp dawg
09-28-2012, 19:49
I have a old Pur Hiker, now made by Katadyn, which has worked well for me for 16 years. My water is clear and clean and ready to drink. I buy a new internal filter every hiking season which does the job for my hikes. During my hike , I clean the nylon screen that surronds the internal filter every week so as to have a good water flow and get rid crud not caught by the external filter. I know there are other filters but this old friend, that is about 16oz., has always served me well. Every year at Trail Days, I stop by the Katadyn tent and the folks there " tune" it up. Life is good on the trail.....swamp dawg

Lando11
09-28-2012, 20:20
I think we're straying off topic here...

Lightest option for water treatment(drum roll please.....)


NOTHING AT ALL!!! Not recommended, but if you cherry pick sources and camel up at good sources this can be done. I met plenty of people on the AT in '11 who carried no treatment.
I myself carried a visine bottle full of bleach that I had to fill once over the entire hike! Weighs about an ounce and is dirt cheap...

Don't over think this too much. Use what ya wanna use. If its a pump filter,AM, dry tabs, JUST DO IT!!!
Just done use a steripen, those things are garbage.

Old Hiker
09-28-2012, 20:27
I'd like to try the AM, but I'm not sue about the effectiveness. I'd also be worried about taste and "texture" of the water. I use a Sweetwater guardian (for years - have had only 1 break) and after I got the siltstopper, I had NO problems with clogging or the filter not working

http://www.amazon.com/MSR-02214-SweetWater-Siltstopper/dp/B001HADTIW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1348878348&sr=8-1&keywords=silt+stopper

Starchild
09-28-2012, 20:28
The containers I use weigh 0.33oz, so the avg would be 0.79 oz carried wt.

Most people take a break at water sources , since they need to stop there anyway. The arguement that you HAVE to carry water for 15 min is ridiculous. But rest assured, you DO have to carry that heavier filter 100% of the time. Usually, I stop once per day for water unless its just unreasonably hot. In most cases I dont even take pack off to get water. By the time someone else takes off pack, gets the filter and stuff out, and filters water, a good chunk of that 15 min (or more) has passed.

No one manages their water very precisely unless they are CERTAIN of the next water source condition and distance, which is not very often. Even then, Im not going to plan to stop at every water source, that would be ridiculous too. Carry what you are willing to carry.

I do often plan to stop at most water sources if I can preplan them - this reduced packed weight significantly and a fast and easy way to get at that water makes all the difference - the easier it is the more you will use it, ideally I would like to carry no water and can sometimes do that, but that would not work with the AM waiting period. The reduction of the amount of water carried is the single greatest way to reduce pack weight.


Just dont pretend that carrying a filter, makes your pack any lighter.

I actually think that a filter or steripen does make your pack weight significantly lighter under some conditions as I already use it to that effect. You are simply carrying less water and it does not take much to offset 3.6 oz in water weight. I am now suspecting that AM is the pretend weight savings, and a pack seems lighter on the scale at the beginning but on the hike the weight of the water offsets that by quite a bit if water is plentiful. Though on a backpack I have for tomorrow water sources are a day apart so going with the tablets - in that case AM makes sense.


All you are doing is inventing dubious scenarios by which you can justify it. There are good reasons to use a filter, weight however, is not one of them.



The bold is what I'm not so sure of and am now really questioning. And now considering the options use of a filter or steripen may be the lightest way to travel due to extra water weight one carries with AM under certain conditions. AM would be a light weight option if no treatment is needed or water sources are very far apart (such as at the camping sites only - at least on paper) and there is a need to haul large quantities of water. But if water is very available then the filter or steripen wins as there is no need to carry water at all except if you have to wait for it to be safe. The question is what is that point where Steripen or filter become heavier then AM + carried water.

Also I am comparing AM to a 3.6 oz (or even the 5.5 oz) steripen, so wet weight does not apply. In the field using the steripen is a short break, basically drink anything you have while reloading your water, steri the water, drink what you want and move on - so you are leaving with less then a full water bottle which is less weight packed - this I feel makes up for the weight of the steripen as you will usually have more then 3.6 oz drank out of the bottle. Hiking with people who use pump filters I can assure you that using the steripen is faster by quite a bit and easier also.

While AM can reduce your base pack weight, it appear that actual 'pack weight carried' may be higher at the worst time, leaving a water source going uphill.

At the very least it is not 'cut and dry not one is always better then the other.

cabbagehead
09-29-2012, 00:18
"Explain to me the light weight benefits of Aquamira (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?88281-Explain-to-me-the-light-weight-benefits-of-Aquamira/page3)"
I don't feel like it.

Kaptain Kangaroo
09-29-2012, 05:15
While AM can reduce your base pack weight, it appear that actual 'pack weight carried' may be higher at the worst time, leaving a water source going uphill.

At the very least it is not 'cut and dry not one is always better then the other.

Mate... I don't understand why you are trying so hard to convince yourself that Aqua Mira can't help reduce pack weight.......... You asked a question & bunch of people offered their opinion..... if you don't like it just ignore it & use whatever you like !

And if you really are that weight conscious, here's a suggestion...... use AM, treat all the water you need, wait the 30 minutes (have a snack, enjoy the woods etc. you know, the stuff you are out there for) and then camel up & hike on..... you are then carrying the minimum weight possible (water & treatment option)......

chiefduffy
09-29-2012, 05:40
I thought this was a serious question, Starchild, but obviously you just wanted to argue your point of view. Whatever

Starchild
09-29-2012, 07:13
I thought this was a serious question, Starchild, but obviously you just wanted to argue your point of view. Whatever

I came here wanting to learn as I did think AM was 4 hours wait time, which seemed obviously not practical.

After learning about it is 15 or 30 minutes I ran the numbers with that new info and did see that AM can be helpful in some situations in reducing pack weight and as said I am planning to leave the steripen home today, but also it appeared that there were many situation where a light weight purification device would be superior still due to packing less or even no water, ideally a drinking straw type filter if water is everywhere along the trail.


I did not come here to accept people's opinion blindly, but to ask and investigate based on what they said, then come back with any questions or issues on what they said, which is what I did. I found out that AM is worth a field try.

So in this it was a serious question, unfortunately it sometimes comes off as argumentative.

chiefduffy
09-29-2012, 09:09
I do not believe you can walk the AT carrying only a straw or filter and no water. There may be sections like that, but I haven't hiked them yet. If you must carry water, unless you do not treat it, chemicals are the lightest way to go. If you don't trust chemicals, carry a filter, or a steripen. It will be heavier.

Peace, out

pyroman53
09-29-2012, 10:29
I think I agree that with AM I might carry a bit of extra water...but I do this anyway...my "what-if" water. What if...the spring sucks...I miss the turnoff...source is dry...there's a big hill before that causes me to suck down more water...etc. So I almost always get to water source with about a pint or more. When using AM I down this reserve while making a new batch and if on the run I will camel up a short way down the trail. If, as has been pointed out, the trail is up after the spring, so much the better...that's when I enjoy indulging myself with as much water as I please. So, it works fine for me. YMMV

Lyle
09-29-2012, 10:49
I've used enough electronics to know that they will and do fail at very inopportune times. Batteries fail prematurely so spares must be carried, adding weight. They also break if dropped. If you do not carry chemical treatment, you will have to resort to not treating or boiling.

Mechanical filters also fail, filter media clogs, ceramic filters crack if dropped (they are then useless). Again, if you do not carry chemicals, then you must resort to no treatment or boiling. Ever tried to quench your thirst with lukewarm, boiled water? UGGGG!

I figure, if I'm carrying chemical treatment anyway, might just as well leave the other stuff behind. Yeah, you could leave the top off and drain your Aqua Mira, or drop one of the bottles down a cliff, but I think that scenario is much less likely than electronics failing, or filters clogging. I just double check the top, and make sure I set things down where they won't fall down a cliff, then it's pretty fool-proof and much lighter.

As others have said, I do not cut my water so close that I need to drink NOW!!!! I can always afford to wait 15 or 20 minutes while taking a break.

MuddyWaters
09-29-2012, 11:43
Theres a few things which IMO would rate as follows: this is for normal hiking water, not drinking sewage. Dont need a discussion about viruses (which most filters dont remove , or Crypto , which no one treats long enough with chemicals to kill). If you want to have the best water possible from really dirty water, you need to use multiple methods to achieve it.

Reliability/risk of failure - chemicals win
Speed - Steripen wins
Convenience - Chemicals win. Steripen would tie if it didnt require a heavy wide top bottle imo.
Taste - filter and steripen win
Pack wt - chemicals win (IMO)
Making dirty water appealing - Filter wins
Lowest risk in dirty water - chemicals and steripen win
Low maintenance - chemicals win


I really like drinking un-fettered COLD water right from a good spring on hot day, so I will do that occassionally. It beats the heck out of the AM taste, which I despise after a day or two and start putting squencher or emergenC in (0.1oz per pack)

judypudy
09-29-2012, 13:03
I use AM and it does take a little planning but it works for me.

A couple things I do:

1. Save the mixing cap
The pair of bottles comes with one mixing cap that fits over one of the dispenser caps. So if you save the mixing cap, you can have one for each bottle of the next set. So if I am filling both of my water containers, I set up 2 mixtures. Then I fill the containers and usually by then the five minutes are almost up, especially if the spring is flowing slowly or hard to get at.

The chlorine dioxide isn't very stable - that's why it doesn't come pre-mixed. Some posters are saying they mix it for the day or for a couple days which doesn't seem to be a good idea. I do try to keep to the 5 minutes but especially in camp sometimes I forget it for 20 minutes or so - oh well.

After you add it, you're supposed to wait 15 minutes, or 30 if the water is cold. Most of the time, especially from a spring, the water on the AT is REALLY cold. So I just think of it as waiting 30 minutes.

Regarding on whether you need to treat or not - the AT is not a wilderness experience. This June I was in TN where many shelters didn't have privies and were heavily used - piles of **** everywhere. Not that far from water sources. And I remember one place in NY where there was a fast-flowing clear creek and a trail maintainer had posted a warning sign that there were cow farms upstream. When I hear people say there is no need to treat, I sort of think they may have a valid point, but to my knowledge there hasn't been testing to provide data for either point of view. But the few times I have drank water without treating, I've been totally skeeved for the rest of the day. If you carefully read the AM package insert, you will notice it gives no guarantees about actually killing microorganisms. I've used AM, I haven't gotten sick, I'm not skeeved, and I can handle the logistics so I'm satisfied with my choice.

2. I wrap a layer of duct tape around both bottles so it's a solid unit.
I had one of the bottles pierced by the metal end of a bungee so I think it protects the plastic a little. I sorta recall still having a leak after I started doing that though. Also, I think having it as a solid unit makes it harder to accidentally leave one bottle behind or have it fall down somewhere you don't notice. The duct tape means you can't see which bottle is A or B, but since you add equal amounts it doesn't matter. And if you mistakenly add use the same bottle twice, you will know because the mixture doesn't turn yellow. So if that happens, toss it and start over.

3. I keep the AM in my lunch bag.
I started out having the AM in an outside mesh pocket, but one time I stopped for water, and when I got into camp, my AM was gone. So either I left it at the water stop or it fell out. I pack my food bag towards the bottom of my pack and I have a small stuff sack at the very top of my pack with lunch and snacks that I pack at in the morning. The AM goes in there coz when I stop for water, I'm going to be eating anyway.

Even AM needs a backup tho, because of leakage or loss. My backup is another set of AM, in my miscellaneous stuff sack.

As you can tell from this overly long post, I really like Aqua Mira. I even like the taste, which I think is a faint but definite lemony-bleachy taste. I like the lemony, and the bleachy makes me feel like I'm drinking clean water.

xokie
09-29-2012, 13:32
I prefer the AM drops but in drought years my old Sweetwater filter is nice for use in grungy ponds and shallow mud puddles.

Another Kevin
09-29-2012, 16:43
What's the shelf life on AM drops once opened? The advantage of Polar Pure, back in the days when dysentery was thought to be worse than drug addiction, was that its shelf life is indefinite. Laundry bleach is good for only a few weeks, and military-surplus iodine tablets are almost always spoilt and useless by the time you get them. (By the way, the handling of Polar Pure's case is crazy - I asked the manufacturer once if he had any surplus vials to sell, to which I could add the active ingredient from another source. He explained that selling them would be trafficking in "drug paraphernalia." Because the vial's only purpose is to store a chemical that's a precursor to an illegal drug - and hence treated as an illegal drug itself.) My filter has a pretty arbitrary shelf life, too - yeah, it'll break eventually, and probably leave me boiling water for a day or two.

I could, I suppose, be convinced to move away from my filter. But I really dislike floaties, so it would have to be a pretty good argument. "Viruses" doesn't quite cut it: what's out there that's really nasty? Coronavirus - maybe, but it's rare. Polio? My shots are up to date, and we don't have a wild reservoir of the virus in the US - no monkeys! Hepatitis A? Again, my shots are up to date. JC Virus? That's really mean, but the horrible symptoms have so far been seen only in AIDS patients, bone marrow transplant recipients, and other severely immunocompromised patients. Norwalk virus? I think I can put up with a day or three of squirting, and most of the transmission is hand-to-mouth anyway.

I filter because I'm rather more concerned about bacterial and protozoal infections, and because, as noted above, I really don't like floaties. I also wash my hands, for the same reasons - and the latter is lot more effective.

jeramie75
09-29-2012, 20:54
If im not mistaken, the AM drops only remove odors and improve the taste of water, not kill giardia, crypto or other viruses. Nowhere on the packaging does it claim to do this, which would be the main reasons for carrying any method of filtration in the first place. So why would one use AM drops?

kayak karl
09-29-2012, 21:33
If im not mistaken, the AM drops only remove odors and improve the taste of water, not kill giardia, crypto or other viruses. Nowhere on the packaging does it claim to do this, which would be the main reasons for carrying any method of filtration in the first place. So why would one use AM drops?
it has 2 parts. i think one does do just what you said. other part purifies. ???

Rocket Jones
09-29-2012, 21:37
The two parts mixed together do the work, they're inert until mixed. Aqua Mira does kill giardia, etc, but since you're mixing it yourself and the manufacturer can't precisely pre-measure for you, they can't claim that it will purify the water.

Personally, I can't taste AM in my water. My hiking buddies, who carry filters and would rather do without 'chemicals', admit that they can't taste any difference between my treated water and their filtered water.

jakedatc
09-29-2012, 21:37
If im not mistaken, the AM drops only remove odors and improve the taste of water, not kill giardia, crypto or other viruses. Nowhere on the packaging does it claim to do this, which would be the main reasons for carrying any method of filtration in the first place. So why would one use AM drops?

keep reading.
"
How does AQUAMIRA work?
When AQUAMIRA parts A and B are mixed together, chlorine dioxide is activated and releases oxygen in a highly active form to effectively kill bacteria and enhance the taste of water. "

jeramie75
09-29-2012, 21:58
Correct..but not Giardia or crypto, these being the ones that bring hike to a quick and dirty end.

MuddyWaters
09-30-2012, 13:42
Correct..but not Giardia or crypto, these being the ones that bring hike to a quick and dirty end.

Not true. Chlorine Dioxide is extremely effective against both giardia and crypto. The hard shells of these protozoa take more time to penetrate though with the low 4ppm conc that was used in the EPA certification for AM tablets. In cold water, the crypto being the worser and taking up to 4 hrs to insure. giardia is easier to deactivate.

Point in effect though, is still that these are actually pretty rare. Also your body does have defenses which deactivate them too. (actually, your body makes hypochlorous acid in doing this, surprise!, technology duplicating biology. ) It takes a certain # of cysts to exceed the bodies defenses and allow the protozoa to multiply. So even the presence of minor contamination from beavers , etc in flowing water, is unlikely to present a high enough concentration to produce sickness. What is a safe level? I think the EPA arbitrarily says 10 cysts /L or something like that in determining water "purification" standards. No idea what that is based on, if anything.

Giardia wont show up until 1.5-2wks later, so unless doing an extended section or thruhike, it likely wont ruin a hike.

Drybones
09-30-2012, 13:54
I bought Aquamira to take but at 4 oz for the two bottles it was just too heavy and took too long to work, used bleach instead, three drops in a liter of water, wait 15 minutes and your good to go. Actually, only use it about half the time, did use it on town water, I'm more comfortable drinking from a mountain stream than my kitchen faucet.

StubbleJumper
10-01-2012, 06:29
Wow, people sure have complicated water collection techniques. When I hike wet trails like the AT, I normally carry only a litre unless there is an upcoming section of more than 5 miles that looks like it might be dry. Sometimes I treat the water if there's livestock or beavers around, but mostly I don't. As I hike, I occasionally stop to drink from my bottle, so the litre normally lasts 4 or 5 miles (ie, 2 hours). When I cross an attractive looking water source, I'll guzzle what's left in my bottle, I might mix up some Aqua Mira if I'm in doubt, collect a new litre of water from the stream, wait 3 or 4 more minutes for it to turn yellow, and then I'm off.

Usually there's no issue about waiting to drink because I "empty" what's left in my water bottle before re-filling. It's the same technique whether I treat or don't treat. On drier trails, I'll carry 3 or 4 litres of water which is usually good for 15 or 20 miles. Again, before re-filling my containers, I empty the remnants into my stomach, so there's no waiting to drink.

Out of about 50 days of trekking, on only two occasions this summer did I completely run out of water, which theoretically might have necessitated a wait of 5 minutes to mix the Aqua Mira and 15 more minutes for it to do its thing. Happily, the water source I arrived at was a pristine lake and the other was an obvious spring, so I just drank it straight-up.

Keep it simple!

Don H
10-01-2012, 08:46
MuddyWaters has his facts right on AM. His times are correct, you would have to do more research than reading the bottle to find this info. Backpackinglight.com has some interesting articles on AM and other methods of water treatment.
I used a Streipen in NH and ME but AM for the rest of my hike. My thoughts were that Giardia was more of a problem when drinking from ponds and lakes than the springs and small creeks found in the south. In fact I heard of several who said they got Giardia in ME but of course there's no way to know if they got it from the water or even if they were treating or not.

Ktaadn
10-01-2012, 13:26
Yeah, millions of Americans have been drinking treated tap water for years.

Yeah, millions of American have died of cancer in that timeframe too. Thanks for the response.

Starchild
10-01-2012, 17:09
I do want to thank many of you for responding and that encouraged me to try something new a field test of AM. For me, and the methods I have developed, AM - after field testing, I just don't see it as a weight savings and I still would consider it (for me and the way I hike and backpack) a 'emergency method only' and even would place AM after boiling in some circumstances and AM would only increase (my personal pack) weight if I used it as my primary method (due solely to the increased water weight as how I hike). Perhaps with practice I could use AM to lower my pack weight and I am not doubting that, but where I am and what I have learned I believe AM is not the primary method for me. If you can do better with AM I fully accept that and wish you the best in heath using it but for me I have not been able to recognize that weight savings.

Perhaps this will change with time and experience in the 2013 thru hike but for now my personal light weight option seems to be the steripen. I do wish you all the best in whatever method works for you and hope you will do the same for me.

Peace
Starchild

MuddyWaters
10-01-2012, 19:47
Here is some hard data, the EPA says these #s are conservative :

EPA surface water treatment rule for 4log (10,000 fold) reduction of viruses by Chlorine Dioxide
the CT value is mg-min/L

temp , C 5 10 15 20 25
CT value 33.4 25.1 16.7 12.5 8.4
What this means, is with 4ppm conc from AM, it takes 6 min to reduce viruses by a factor of 10,000 in 50F (10C ) water.

Here is the data for Giardia for 3log (1000 fold) reduction:

temp, C 5 10 15 20 25
CT value 26 23 19 15 11

What this means, is with 4ppm AM, and 50F water, it takes 6 min to reduce giardia by 1000 fold.

Here is Crypto, 3 log reduction as well:

Temp, C 5 10 15 20 25
CT value 1286 830 536 347 226

As you can see, it takes 3.5 hrs to deactivate crypto in 50F water with 4ppm ClO2.

These #s are conservative, the mfg throws their own conservativeness on as well.

In a study on Crypto, given 30 cysts, 20% of the people developed gastro issues, none had full blown crypto where you pass the cysts in the poop.
When 1000 cysts were given, 75% of people got sick, but only 30% still developed full blown and passed cysts.
How many cysts it takes, is highly dependent on the persons immune system. People with HIV can contract forms of crypto carried by different species, like housecats and fish, that normal people do not.

michelleclark12313
10-02-2012, 02:54
It appears that one using Aquamira will be carrying more water and thus more weight then other alternatives, though it is touted as a ultralightweight solution. drag your heavy filter you bought along but Agua Mira does the same thing. But it is lighter. I did not carry extra water. Fill up, treat water, take a short break and drink. I am kicked back resting and the filter boys are pumping away on the pumps.




koh samui island (http://www.welovekohsamui.com/)

jakedatc
10-02-2012, 09:29
It appears that one using Aquamira will be carrying more water and thus more weight then other alternatives, though it is touted as a ultralightweight solution. drag your heavy filter you bought along but Agua Mira does the same thing. But it is lighter. I did not carry extra water. Fill up, treat water, take a short break and drink. I am kicked back resting and the filter boys are pumping away on the pumps.




koh samui island (http://www.welovekohsamui.com/)

No one is talking about using pump filters. the Sawyer Squeeze weighs 6oz with it's required "dirty side" soft bottle. squeezing 1L takes a very short time and i'm walking down the trail soon after.