View Full Version : Fires
RedRunnerJumper
09-28-2012, 01:11
I know CT and NJ prohibit campfires... Are there any other states I should know about that are like that?
Parts of Pa. and in some State and National Parks put some restrictions. The entire AT can put temporary restrictions due to conditions. You should know that in more remote areas nobody takes these restrictions very seriously.
Blissful
09-28-2012, 11:03
Fires are only allowed at established campsites and shelters in MD. And not at all at Annapolis Rock.
Blissful
09-28-2012, 11:05
You should know that in more remote areas nobody takes these restrictions very seriously. which is sad and damages the soil and the environment....amazing how people think they are above the law...
swjohnsey
09-28-2012, 11:50
which is sad and damages the soil and the environment....amazing how people think they are above the law...
Do you speed?
Drybones
09-28-2012, 12:57
Do you speed?
The speed limit on most interstates is 70, most people drive 75-80, why, that's the speed at which they believe it will be enforced...hummmm...somewhere in there is a moral. I heard a sermon at a Menonite church in Broadway, VA one time that actually had me drive the speed limit and come to complete stops at stop signs for two years...it wore off...back to my old ways.
Drybones
09-28-2012, 13:02
Do you speed?
Good point. Reminded me of a joke, totally off topic, but, what the heck. Man approaches a pretty lady and asks if she will spend the night with her for $1 million, she says yes. He ask if she would spend the night for $5, she responded, "what do you think I am". He replied, "We've already established what you are, we're now negotiating price".
Do you speed?
Its not the same thing. You are trying to rationalize bad behavior.
If I speed, once I pass your location, you will never know I was ever there. If you build a fire in an authorized area you sterilize the soil under the fire and even if you clean it up and make it look like the fire never happened, the damage is still done and nothing will grow there for years.
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If you build a fire in an authorized area
That is suppose to say unauthorized area. Sorry for the double post.
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swjohnsey
09-28-2012, 14:02
Its not the same thing. You are trying to rationalize bad behavior.
If I speed, once I pass your location, you will never know I was ever there. If you build a fire in an authorized area you sterilize the soil under the fire and even if you clean it up and make it look like the fire never happened, the damage is still done and nothing will grow there for years.
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It is the same thing. You want me to obey laws/rules you think are important. It is O.K. to ignore those you think aren't. On a side note, I don't build fires so I don't have a dog in the hunt. I would point out that fire is a natural part of the environment. When I camp the only thing I leave behind is poop.
Sheesh, I thought the reason for a no campfire area is that they were worried about forrest fires. Now that I see that they are worried about sterilizing the soil under the fire. That is what I get for being uninformed. I'm probably responsible for hundreds of extinctions of unseen creatures. I gotta watch where I pee in the woods, no telling what damage that does.
slow mind
09-28-2012, 14:56
Nothing will grow there for years??????? This is not true.
Its not the same thing. You are trying to rationalize bad behavior.
If I speed, once I pass your location, you will never know I was ever there. If you build a fire in an authorized area you sterilize the soil under the fire and even if you clean it up and make it look like the fire never happened, the damage is still done and nothing will grow there for years.
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Sheesh, I thought the reason for a no campfire area is that they were worried about forrest fires. Now that I see that they are worried about sterilizing the soil under the fire. That is what I get for being uninformed. I'm probably responsible for hundreds of extinctions of unseen creatures. I gotta watch where I pee in the woods, no telling what damage that does.
Wild fires are only one reason. In high use areas, soil damage and the impact of people stripping the area of fire wood are others.
Pee does nothing except add nitrogen to the soil. Feel free to pee away :). Away from the campsite that is.
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Pedaling Fool
09-28-2012, 16:05
If you build a fire in an authorized area you sterilize the soil under the fire and even if you clean it up and make it look like the fire never happened, the damage is still done and nothing will grow there for years.Nature is just not that fragile; building a fire won't hurt a damn thing in the big picture. Yes it will sterilize everything in the immediate area, but once the fire goes out things start growing, just add soil and water. If you sterilize anything, it will only stay sterilized as long as nothing comes in contact with it, but there's little microorganisms all over the place, but people forget this because of the out-of-sight-out-of-mind thing.
Wood ash is a fertilizer. http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~blpprt/bestwoodash.html
max patch
09-28-2012, 16:13
Speaking for myself, on a thru I have no inclination at all to start a fire. You may find your question is a moot point.
Drybones
09-28-2012, 16:21
Its not the same thing. You are trying to rationalize bad behavior.
If I speed, once I pass your location, you will never know I was ever there. If you build a fire in an authorized area you sterilize the soil under the fire and even if you clean it up and make it look like the fire never happened, the damage is still done and nothing will grow there for years.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
You need to let the forest rangers know about the damage they're doing, they burn hundreds if not thousands of acres yearly...and get this...they believe they're helping the forest, it is kinda interesting how life seems to pop right back up after burning, minus the underbrush.
You need to let the forest rangers know about the damage they're doing, they burn hundreds if not thousands of acres yearly...and get this...they believe they're helping the forest, it is kinda interesting how life seems to pop right back up after burning, minus the underbrush.
Not the same. In a wild fire the heat goes up, and the ground cover burns very quickly. Very little heat gets deep in the soil. In a campfire the heat is concentrated for a long time in one spot and kills everything for several inches below the ground, making the soil pH very base and kills all the micro organisms that support plant growth. You can take soil samples years later and the pH is still to high to support plant growth.
This is not about one small campfire in a remote area, this is about the effect of countless campfires in a small strip of land built by thousands of people year after year.
That is why if there is an existing fire ring there is usually not a problem because the ground is already toast in that spot.
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Drybones
09-28-2012, 19:20
[QUOTE=bfayer;1342954]
That is why if there is an existing fire ring there is usually not a problem because the ground is already toast in that spot.
So you're saying it's okay in a fire ring? I believe that's what people do. Hey, I'd be the first person to tell you we need to take care of this planet but I don't believe building a fire is going to create global warming.
It is the same thing. You want me to obey laws/rules you think are important. It is O.K. to ignore those you think aren't. On a side note, I don't build fires so I don't have a dog in the hunt. I would point out that fire is a natural part of the environment. When I camp the only thing I leave behind is poop.
No, it's not the same thing. If you truly think all laws should be obeyed equally, you're either so straight laced that you stop completely at all intersections and only cross streets at appropriate intersections, or you're a murderer and legitimate rapist.
Pedaling Fool
09-28-2012, 20:36
In a campfire the heat is concentrated for a long time in one spot and kills everything for several inches below the ground, making the soil pH very base and kills all the micro organisms that support plant growth.It (life) comes back, though -- very quickly. It's not as if the environment is static, such as on the moon. Rains and wind happen, in addition to people that kick stuff over the fire spot. If life comes back strong in an area such as Chernobyl http://phys.org/news6858.html no little campfire spot is going to keep it away.
You can take soil samples years later and the pH is still to high to support plant growth.
Only in an active campfire spot, not a one-time spot.
This is not about one small campfire in a remote area, this is about the effect of countless campfires in a small strip of land built by thousands of people year after year. That is why if there is an existing fire ring there is usually not a problem because the ground is already toast in that spot.
Most people don't camp away from the shelter, let alone most don't like building fires, so the idea of thousands of people creating fires is not realistic.
BTW, even the most used fire pit can grow a plant in it. all one has to do is take the fertilizer (ashes) and distribute them about then throw a little dirt in there and you got a spot for a plant to grow. Or you can just let nature do it...how long will it take? It depends on weather. One big flood will go a long way in dismantling that fire pit. The idea that the "ground" is dead is just wrong.
swjohnsey
09-28-2012, 21:01
It (life) comes back, though -- very quickly. It's not as if the environment is static, such as on the moon. Rains and wind happen, in addition to people that kick stuff over the fire spot. If life comes back strong in an area such as Chernobyl http://phys.org/news6858.html no little campfire spot is going to keep it away.
Only in an active campfire spot, not a one-time spot.
Most people don't camp away from the shelter, let alone most don't like building fires, so the idea of thousands of people creating fires is not realistic.
BTW, even the most used fire pit can grow a plant in it. all one has to do is take the fertilizer (ashes) and distribute them about then throw a little dirt in there and you got a spot for a plant to grow. Or you can just let nature do it...how long will it take? It depends on weather. One big flood will go a long way in dismantling that fire pit. The idea that the "ground" is dead is just wrong.
Practically all of Maine was burned off at one time or another and look at if . . . dead.
Very little heat gets deep in the soil. In a campfire the heat is concentrated for a long time in one spot and kills everything for several inches below the ground, making the soil pH very base and kills all the micro organisms that support plant growth. You can take soil samples years later and the pH is still to high to support plant growth.
This is not about one small campfire in a remote area, this is about the effect of countless campfires in a small strip of land built by thousands of people year after year.
That is why if there is an existing fire ring there is usually not a problem because the ground is already toast in that spot.
Fire will not directly change soil pH. The biggest effect of fire is to the physical properties of the soil. Not all soils are the same. Some can tolerate more heat than others. The biggest impact fire has to soil is destroying the organic matter which then can impact water holding capacity, nutrients, soil structure, etc.
I don't think fire is the problem. The gathering of firewood has tremendous impacts on the environment.
It (life) comes back, though -- very quickly. It's not as if the environment is static, such as on the moon. Rains and wind happen, in addition to people that kick stuff over the fire spot. If life comes back strong in an area such as Chernobyl http://phys.org/news6858.html no little campfire spot is going to keep it away.
In some places it does come back quick. You guys on the AT probably don't have to worry about it much. You guys could probably have dumb hikers setting fires all the time and you'd probably still be hiking under tree cover most of the time. We're not so lucky out here in the west. While fire is a natural part of the growth cycle, the frequency of fire caused by humans is well beyond natural. We're losing out tree cover, and will continue to lose it faster than it can grow back unless we can greatly improve our fire management.
Even with your argument about life coming back quickly, unmanaged fires still present a risk to lives and homes. That should be reason enough for people to either not have fires, or be EXTREMELY careful about how they do it, and the best way to be careful is to follow the fire rules AND use good judgement.
Pedaling Fool
09-29-2012, 18:49
We're talking about the AT here. No one really cares about the west coast, you'll just living on borrowed time until California falls into the Pacific and then what's left will be buried under six feet of ash from Yellowstone's supervolcano. Have a nice day. :)
2 springs ago (2011), I hiked the state of CT in the snow - post-holed the whole way - - at Limestone Springs Shelter, it was very cold - about 8 degrees - I broke the rules and built myself a nice fire. The next morning, I carefully erased all evidence of the fire (and cleaned-up some fire detritus that was not mine too). Rarely would I do this. Actually, it is rare that I would build a fire unless it is very, very cold - when they are nice. My strong suggestion is that backpackers carry candles - I place one or two candles inside a windscreen to create a lovely light - - unless you badly need the warmth (which I did in CT - half frozen wet shoes, blue feet, etc.) a campfire is largely unnecessary.
We're talking about the AT here. No one really cares about the west coast, you'll just living on borrowed time until California falls into the Pacific and then what's left will be buried under six feet of ash from Yellowstone's supervolcano. Have a nice day. :)
Fortunately the prevailing winds will take the ash east. Any extra ash will be much appreciated to give your mountains much needed elevation. :D
On a serious note, both types of fires will cause extra erosion that trail crews will have to handle. I'd like to think that erosion control is budgeted into managed burns.
coach lou
09-29-2012, 21:59
I myself don't build camp fires. I have a stove to cook. If it is cold, I have brought the proper clothing. It is all sorts of work gathering the wood. Then your clothes stink, and the smoke WILL always go in your tent or in the shelter. Then you have to clean up your mess. Just not worth the effort.
BobTheBuilder
09-29-2012, 22:26
I have come to like campfires, although only small ones that take about an hour start to finish. I won't start a fire if things are really dry, but if the world is normal and you show up and lecture me about my fire, I'll tell you the same thing I yell at people who drive too close to me when I'm walking my dog. Have a nice day!
Tipi Walter
09-30-2012, 09:15
Speaking for myself, on a thru I have no inclination at all to start a fire. You may find your question is a moot point.
Having a campfire is a throwback to another time---nowadays there's no need for a campfire except to gather in the chortling grab-ass humans in a social fit of alcohol consumption and loud yells.
I myself don't build camp fires. I have a stove to cook. If it is cold, I have brought the proper clothing. It is all sorts of work gathering the wood. Then your clothes stink, and the smoke WILL always go in your tent or in the shelter. Then you have to clean up your mess. Just not worth the effort.
This one hits it. My stove is much easier than a campfire---and can be done in my tent vestibule in bad weather, high winds or snow. Plus, if it is cold it is always warmer layered up in my tent and sitting on my sleeping pad---much warmer than standing around a big bonfire. And then there's the bugaboo of hot ashes burning pinholes in your tent fly.
Beyond this, who has the energy to gather wood and maintain a fire and then to make dam sure it's out before shoving off? This usually requires water to douse but who humps extra water for this purpose? Ah, but humans are addicted to the fire fix and I've seen some sorry examples of humans-in-action.
** Several times I came up to burning campfires with no one around---they left to go home. Idiots.
** Many times I find backpackers camping on open balds or on mountain tops with high winds and they have a big bonfire blowing red embers sideways along the ground. Idiots.
** Many motard humans actually use their firepit to burn bottles and cans and wet soggy loaves of bread and old t-shirts and YET NONE OF THIS WILL BURN! But they leave to go home nonetheless. Idiotic.
** And finally, as noted above, many backpacking groups will immediately build a fire to symbolize the beginning of a night-long gab-fest with yelling and howling in a fit of alcohol poisoning. And they love a big bonfire, it seems to justify and validate their excuse to get drunk and disturb everyone else in a 200 yard radius.
Fires are the mark of a Horace Kephart-induced dementia. A throwback and unneeded.
HikerMom58
09-30-2012, 12:08
Hey RedRunnerJumper.... hope you got your question answered. It would prob. be best, to ask when you register as a thru hiker at Springer, what the current restrictions are on fires along the AT.
I bet you will find when you are around a shelter, in the evening, someone will be interested in starting a fire in the fire ring. When I was out there hiking, we loved a having a fire. My daughter and I weren't very good at starting one ourselves so we found "firestarter". We gave him his trail name since he was so great at starting one. :) He always made it fairly small & was good to put it out, completely, before drifting off to sleep. It was a great source of light while we were doing our "chores" in the evening.
It was the perfect place to sit around and listen to him play his "guitar" and sing. If that sounds inviting to you, you will really enjoy a good campfire on ur hike. It was very enjoyable for us!! It was a win/win situation for us & firestarter since we "payed" him for starting our fire everynight with extra goodies we had AND his fav. drink ... hot chocolate!! :D
Tipi Walter
09-30-2012, 12:24
Hey RedRunnerJumper.... hope you got your question answered. It would prob. be best, to ask when you register as a thru hiker at Springer, what the current restrictions are on fires along the AT.
I bet you will find when you are around a shelter, in the evening, someone will be interested in starting a fire in the fire ring. When I was out there hiking, we loved a having a fire. My daughter and I weren't very good at starting one ourselves so we found "firestarter". We gave him his trail name since he was so great at starting one. :) He always made it fairly small & was good to put it out, completely, before drifting off to sleep. It was a great source of light while we were doing our "chores" in the evening.
It was the perfect place to sit around and listen to him play his "guitar" and sing. If that sounds inviting to you, you will really enjoy a good campfire on ur hike. It was very enjoyable for us!! It was a win/win situation for us & firestarter since we "payed" him for starting our fire everynight with extra goodies we had AND his fav. drink ... hot chocolate!! :D
I've found the AT shelter firepits to be some of the worst with garbage in the fire ring but this is because the shelters focus people in a small area with a big impact.
HikerMom58
09-30-2012, 12:59
I hear ya Tipi Walter. We found some shelter fire rings that looked a lil trashy but it wasn't that bad at all. If we found some fresh leftover food type stuff around the shelter that gave us more incentive to build a fire to get rid of the smell so it wouldn't attract bears etc....
It's not the best solution but what the hay you gotta do what you gotta do out in the woods. I really wish that everyone lived by the leave no trace motto but realistically I don't think that will ever happen :(
What you said about trash around the fire pits is true, sometimes. It just makes more work for the volunteers that try to keep the shelters & the shelter area trash free.... Welcome to our world, right? :eek:
Speaking from experience living in south Florida, we do controlled burns to massive sections of land to not only prevent forest fires from starting but also to build thicker forests with stronger habitats. Trust me, fire does not inhibit a healthy ecosystem.
88BlueGT
10-09-2012, 16:58
To each his own, but unless there's a serious dry spell you are not stopping me from having a fire. I have always had fires and have always been very respectable with them. Nothing huge, small fire ring around a small dug bowl, rocks disbursed and covered when left... never know I was there. Is it ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC for the environment? Probably not... but man has been creating fire for thousands of years and I'm not going to be the one to attempt to stop it.
HYOH, to each his own. Everyone loves a little campfire and if you don't, somethings seriously wrong with you.
88BlueGT
10-09-2012, 16:59
Oh and just a side note, I do not camp at campgrounds, shelters, cleared areas, etc. I always enjoy finding a spot far off trail for me to clear out and setup my own private area.
Wise Old Owl
10-09-2012, 20:46
Its not the same thing. You are trying to rationalize bad behavior.
If I speed, once I pass your location, you will never know I was ever there. If you build a fire in an authorized area you sterilize the soil under the fire and even if you clean it up and make it look like the fire never happened, the damage is still done and nothing will grow there for years.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
Add Drybone's to the same post
Incorrect - life bursts from fire devastated areas.... It makes room for other growth inhibited by the woods.... Aborigines and American Indians practiced this knowledge to prevent major issues in their lives to reduce major fires.... please do some more study on your part. This is basic Nat Geo stuff.
Just saw the above posts...rings are for noobs. Ya old school hard wood for cooking and pine for light ....and read up yourselves on "Cold Out".
Sailing_Faith
10-09-2012, 20:54
Hey RedRunnerJumper.... hope you got your question answered. It would prob. be best, to ask when you register as a thru hiker at Springer, what the current restrictions are on fires along the AT.
I bet you will find when you are around a shelter, in the evening, someone will be interested in starting a fire in the fire ring. When I was out there hiking, we loved a having a fire. My daughter and I weren't very good at starting one ourselves so we found "firestarter". We gave him his trail name since he was so great at starting one. :) He always made it fairly small & was good to put it out, completely, before drifting off to sleep. It was a great source of light while we were doing our "chores" in the evening.
It was the perfect place to sit around and listen to him play his "guitar" and sing. If that sounds inviting to you, you will really enjoy a good campfire on ur hike. It was very enjoyable for us!! It was a win/win situation for us & firestarter since we "payed" him for starting our fire everynight with extra goodies we had AND his fav. drink ... hot chocolate!! :D
What a nice post in the midst of a way-too-serious thread. Nice job.
I like a fire too, need not be big but I have always enjoyed staring into a flame for a bit at the end of a day.
RedRunnerJumper
10-10-2012, 10:35
Ya, I was able to get an answer, thanks! But also will def check when I'm at Springer. Thanks to everyone's feedback.
Betcha the manufacturing of my pocket rocket, it's fuel container, the harvesting (or making) of the fuel, the waste products of the fuel the canister and the disposal of the stove when it gets broken does more damage than all the fires built on the AT this year.
Multiply that by however many thousand stoves MSR, etc sells.
Campfires are fun.
slow mind
10-10-2012, 15:50
http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l529/PineMartyn/Autumn%20reconnaissance/08.jpg
Look how sterile..... what a shame
88BlueGT
10-10-2012, 16:42
What a shame is that this person did not disburse the fire ring when they were finished.
Pedaling Fool
10-10-2012, 17:32
http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l529/PineMartyn/Autumn%20reconnaissance/08.jpg
Oh...my eyes, my eyes...what a blight on freakin' nature :D:rolleyes:
BTW, what's that crappy looking green stuff near the rocks ;)
slow mind
10-10-2012, 18:36
Yes they should have dispersed that fire pit, rocks will not grow when in a circle.
Wise Old Owl
10-10-2012, 19:51
Speaking from experience living in south Florida, we do controlled burns to massive sections of land to not only prevent forest fires from starting but also to build thicker forests with stronger habitats. Trust me, fire does not inhibit a healthy ecosystem.
Ran into that in SNP! and they had to close Skyline when they lost control. Its all good folks.
Hey John that green stuff must have been planted!
hikerboy57
10-10-2012, 20:18
Yes they should have dispersed that fire pit, rocks will not grow when in a circle.
aah but they found spearheads and pottery shards there too. carbon dating puts that fire ring at 2500BC
aah but they found spearheads and pottery shards there too. carbon dating puts that fire ring at 2500BC
They should charge the guys that built that fire ring, there's no statute of limitations on illegal fires:)
hikerboy57
10-11-2012, 16:02
They should charge the guys that built that fire ring, there's no statute of limitations on illegal fires:)
i believe thats known as the anasazi code
Drybones
10-11-2012, 22:25
aah but they found spearheads and pottery shards there too. carbon dating puts that fire ring at 2500BC
Those Neanderthals...they should know better.
swjohnsey
10-11-2012, 23:02
Just found out I ain't carryin' no Neanderthal DNA, what a relief.
Sarcasm the elf
10-13-2012, 23:08
There are plenty of folks who have spoken up about reasons not to have fires and I don't disagree with any of their arguments...
That said, I'm an old boyscout, I love a fire on a cold night. For the most part I wont' light a fire unless there's snow on the ground, but once the temperature hit's the the teens (f) I change from a backpacker to a camper and fun ensues...
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/2/6/4/6/5/sometimes_wiley_shelter_doesn_t_suck_thumb.jpg (http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=44110)
The next morning....
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/2/6/4/6/5/img_0090_thumb.jpg (http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=40337)
Yes they should have dispersed that fire pit, rocks will not grow when in a circle.
untrue, ive seen 'em grow in circles before, Mich. Ohio, Indiana. New York, Colorado, Ga. and new mexico all have circle grown rocks.. i know ya think im BSing ya. but its tru, cant say it happens everywhere, but i can attest it happens there.
coach lou
10-14-2012, 07:56
There are plenty of folks who have spoken up about reasons not to have fires and I don't disagree with any of their arguments...
That said, I'm an old boyscout, I love a fire on a cold night. For the most part I wont' light a fire unless there's snow on the ground, but once the temperature hit's the the teens (f) I change from a backpacker to a camper and fun ensues...
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/2/6/4/6/5/sometimes_wiley_shelter_doesn_t_suck_thumb.jpg (http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=44110)
The next morning....
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/2/6/4/6/5/img_0090_thumb.jpg (http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=40337)
I agree Dave, when "Camping" and it's cold okay......but I make the kids go get the wood. Backpacking no, too much hassle.