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Waterbuffalo
10-03-2012, 14:35
http://www.wbir.com/news/article/236310/2/Smokies-will-start-collecting-backcountry-camping-fees-early-next-year

Bear Cables
10-06-2012, 10:50
Thanks for the article. I like the idea of online resevations. Makes it alot easier. Also $4 a night is still a bargin. They charge $5 in the Desolation Wilderness so...

Gambit
10-09-2012, 10:18
I read the article but did not see a start date for both fees as well as online reservations, beginning of 2013 was all I found. And wil this be required of thru hikers as well? I dont know how I feel about this...

Don H
10-09-2012, 11:18
Can I do work for stay? :)

jericho1981
10-10-2012, 22:21
Backcountry camping, front country camping, fireflies, fly fishing, parking. The fees are compounding thanks to Dale Ditmanson. He sure seems awfully motivated to find reasons to utilize these Canadians and their reservation system. hmmmm.

LDog
10-10-2012, 23:50
"Reservations may be made at any time up to 30 days in advance, allowing maximum flexibility for those making last minute plans."

By who's standards is 30 days "last minute?"

Don H
10-11-2012, 08:17
"Reservations may be made at any time up to 30 days in advance, allowing maximum flexibility for those making last minute plans."

By who's standards is 30 days "last minute?"

The same people who take 10 years to approve an off shore drilling permit.

Darwin13
10-11-2012, 11:39
what if you dont believe that someone can own the smokey mountains? Do I just walk through it and not see the fees?

magic_game03
10-12-2012, 19:19
I double dare them. No really can we $40 for a pass? I really would like them to get rid of the mice and those G*$ D^%$ bear fences.

P.S. Bear Cables, common who's going to only stay one night in the Desolation. $15 bucks for a weekend in the Desolation. But the trout are the size of my arm.

Don H
10-12-2012, 20:14
what if you dont believe that someone can own the smokey mountains? Do I just walk through it and not see the fees?

You can try.

"Atlas"
10-14-2012, 18:09
I just came through the A.T. section of the Smokies three weeks ago. Some of the new shelters are really nice, with translucent roofs and some newly designed eating areas that look like they are missing bar stools. But it was a big mistake to not put privies on site. Seriously, no privies. Paying to stay at a shelter is a bad precedent. Soon we will have to pay a fee to register with the ATC to get a permit to travel the Trail, then a State Fee when entering each state and a Federal fee for crossing state lines.

Wild~Rain
10-16-2012, 20:21
Hey Chainsaw! Remember me from last year, wildrain? How goes it? I never got to finish the trail but im starting over this year!

Tor
11-13-2012, 20:17
I'll just havta pitch the tent a little further off the trail then.....

rev_sunshine
11-13-2012, 23:47
My god WHAT is the problem? It's $4! The same people who complain about how run down the shelters are, turn around and complain when the shelters get fixed. I'm sure the $4 will help clean up and clear the many trails that have been hit hard. So many ppl say they love the Smokies, but not very many ppl are out there helping to clean them up.

Praha4
11-14-2012, 00:24
the online reservation system sounds great, its almost impossible to get thru on their telephone number for reservations now.... but I wonder how will this be enforced, they will have to hire additional park rangers to patrol the shelters and campsites, or else like GMC in Vermont, they will need fulltime AT caretakers that will essentially "live" along the trail to patrol the shelters and campsites during the hiking season and collect the money. It could work if the Park Service invests enough resources into the new system.

ChinMusic
11-14-2012, 00:26
My god WHAT is the problem? It's $4! The same people who complain about how run down the shelters are, turn around and complain when the shelters get fixed. I'm sure the $4 will help clean up and clear the many trails that have been hit hard. So many ppl say they love the Smokies, but not very many ppl are out there helping to clean them up.
I doubt a dime on the dollar goes to such things. The money will be swallowed up in bureaucracy.

rev_sunshine
11-14-2012, 00:45
GSMNP is one of the only national parks in the country that doesn't charge an entrance fee. It's also the most visited park. Thru hikers create the most backcountry damage (outside of storms and natural damage). Thru hikers leave trash, crap wherever they please, wash dishes/clothes in the water systems, leave food out for the bears, start fires where they're not supposed to, camp wherever they please despite the damage it does, destroy shelters, etc. And, despite all of the "I love nature. We need to protect this precious natural resource" rhetoric, ppl are crying over 4$ and devising their plans to screw the park more. I spend A LOT of time in The Smokies...way more than the 8 or so nights most thru hikers do. If the park workers/volunteers weren't so busy picking up after sloppy thru hikers (some of whom are just downright piggish), maybe some other trails could get maintained too. But instead of fixing trails that have been closed for years, ungrateful thru hikers get new shelters for their 8 night visit...and they're STILL complaining.

rev_sunshine
11-14-2012, 00:53
I have to say too. I've never had a problem getting through on the reservation line. I'm not saying other ppl haven't...maybe I'm just super lucky. I've also never had a problem getting a last minute reservation...even same day reservation at popular sites. I won't go anywhere near the AT in summer, so maybe that's why I don't have a problem getting a res, but I've only ever gotten a busy signal once. For a park of its size, and working on the budget it does (compared to say, Grand Canyon that gets 20$ a car), I've always been pretty impressed w/ the current res system.

ChinMusic
11-14-2012, 01:01
GSMNP is one of the only national parks in the country that doesn't charge an entrance fee. It's also the most visited park. Thru hikers create the most backcountry damage (outside of storms and natural damage). Thru hikers leave trash, crap wherever they please, wash dishes/clothes in the water systems, leave food out for the bears, start fires where they're not supposed to, camp wherever they please despite the damage it does, destroy shelters, etc. And, despite all of the "I love nature. We need to protect this precious natural resource" rhetoric, ppl are crying over 4$ and devising their plans to screw the park more. I spend A LOT of time in The Smokies...way more than the 8 or so nights most thru hikers do. If the park workers/volunteers weren't so busy picking up after sloppy thru hikers (some of whom are just downright piggish), maybe some other trails could get maintained too. But instead of fixing trails that have been closed for years, ungrateful thru hikers get new shelters for their 8 night visit...and they're STILL complaining.

IMO your post is simply FOS

HikerMom58
11-14-2012, 08:55
I am thrilled with this... I will gladly pay $4. I could NEVER get anyone to answer the phones for reservations. They have done a Gr8 job on sprucing up many of the shelters in the GSMNP.

Pedaling Fool
11-14-2012, 10:37
GSMNP is one of the only national parks in the country that doesn't charge an entrance fee. It's also the most visited park. Thru hikers create the most backcountry damage (outside of storms and natural damage). Thru hikers leave trash, crap wherever they please, wash dishes/clothes in the water systems, leave food out for the bears, start fires where they're not supposed to, camp wherever they please despite the damage it does, destroy shelters, etc. And, despite all of the "I love nature. We need to protect this precious natural resource" rhetoric, ppl are crying over 4$ and devising their plans to screw the park more. I spend A LOT of time in The Smokies...way more than the 8 or so nights most thru hikers do. If the park workers/volunteers weren't so busy picking up after sloppy thru hikers (some of whom are just downright piggish), maybe some other trails could get maintained too. But instead of fixing trails that have been closed for years, ungrateful thru hikers get new shelters for their 8 night visit...and they're STILL complaining.
I'm surprised that someone that hikes a lot through GSMNP and lives in the area is so misinformed on this new system. Not one cent will be spent on upkeep of anything, even the park officials have admitted to that; the money is solely to support the new reservation system and newly hired park rangers, two of them.


More information in the Great Smoky Mountain National Park forum<!-- END TEMPLATE: navbar_link --> http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?82-Great-Smoky-Mountain-National-Park

PMike
11-16-2012, 00:25
I never cease to be amazed at how uninformed if not utterly misinformed most folks are about the "fees/tax". It will do nothing to support repairs or improvements. Even the "new" rangers are already being paid out of donations made by other organizations. To top it off, others have volunteered to man the phones for free, but were repeatedly turned down by the folks at the NPS.

PS: Howdy John from a fellow NE Floridian :) I am just over on the N'side of Jax and noticed you are in Atlantic Beach

Mike

jorhawle
11-16-2012, 17:41
Correct me if I'm wrong (and I probably am) but didn't volunteers upgrade the shelters? Isn't it true that NO federal money is used to maintain the trails? However, I bet federal money is used to maintain the roads that millions drive on per year in the park.

i understand they can't charge an entry fee, and I will pay the $4 because I think it will be a benefit to do it online as opposed to on the phone (more convenient for most) but I think it's unfair to backpackers.

Hoofit
11-16-2012, 19:28
Well, here is another opinion from North East Florida,Flagler Beach!!it is nigh on impossible to expect all the thousands of hikers and others to crap behind a tree

Hoofit
11-16-2012, 19:35
I' not finished,darn it!!!
This here I pad thingy just Tears me up!!!!
What a mess on the downhill side of those shelters!!!
Ridge runners telling everyone to grab the shovel and crap in a fifty square yard area in front of the shelter.
I must admit , I don't have the solution as Privvies are hard to maintain but all that shoot paper blowin in the wind,AHHHHHHHHHHH and UGHHHHHHH!!!!!
Does anyone have a solution to this ?
Money wasted on reservations might well be better spent on education and some form of privy mgt during the busy season...
Jus sayin.....

MedicineWoman2012
11-16-2012, 19:52
LMAO to Hoofit....I hear ya at -10F windchill factor kinda makes me wanna pitch a tent and do my duty there

magic_game03
11-17-2012, 10:17
whaaah, bunch of dam crybabies. keep, not paying your dues. keep blaming everybody else for your problems. keep crying about our great national park and wilderness system. I'm gonna pay my whole 400 cents, I'm gonna keep smiling, an I'm gonna keep thanking those that put their hard efforts into making our system great.

rev_sunshine
11-17-2012, 14:59
I love when ppl who live hundreds of miles away and read one or two articles on the Internet consider themselves experts on a topic. The fee is instituted and collected under the Federal Lands Recreation Enhancement Act...which, if you'll read that tells what and where the money goes, what it cannot be used for, and how it is used to enhance and maintain sites, build privies, etc

There is also a cap of $20

Pedaling Fool
11-17-2012, 16:36
My god WHAT is the problem? It's $4! The same people who complain about how run down the shelters are, turn around and complain when the shelters get fixed. I'm sure the $4 will help clean up and clear the many trails that have been hit hard. So many ppl say they love the Smokies, but not very many ppl are out there helping to clean them up.


I love when ppl who live hundreds of miles away and read one or two articles on the Internet consider themselves experts on a topic. The fee is instituted and collected under the Federal Lands Recreation Enhancement Act...which, if you'll read that tells what and where the money goes, what it cannot be used for, and how it is used to enhance and maintain sites, build privies, etc

There is also a cap of $20
I don't consider myself an expert, by any means on this subject; the fact that I live hundreds of miles away is irrelevant, thanks to technology.

Under my last link there is this thread, which is very informative, notice all the locals from which I gain my knowledge http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?74909-GSMNP-Thinking-of-Charging-for-Back-Country-Camping-5-per-day-Per-Person-Per-Hike

Your first post I posted above seems to indicate that the fees are for maintaining the trail and shelters, but has already been mentioned, the vast majority of maintenance comes from volunteers.

But don't take my word, or the word of so many locals, just look at this official link http://www.nps.gov/grsm/parknews/bc-camping-fee.htm

Excerpt:

"Concern was also raised about the range of fee amounts that were under consideration and that the resulting revenues may be diverted to other programs. We have decided to focus our plans around the lowest and simplest of the fees under study: $4 per night per person. Most importantly, 100% of the revenue from this program will be invested in improving back-country services through extended hours of the back-country office, trip-planning assistance, on-line reservations, and protection of park resources through increased ranger staff. "


Now I can understand how someone can mistakenly read into the above paragraph and think that money is going directly into maintenance and upkeep of the trail. However, this is wrong. What they're saying is that this plan/fee is to pay for the on-line reservation system and increased ranger staff. However, they also seem to be saying that money will go towards upkeep, but this is wrong reading. What they are saying is that this system will improve the environment because of the increased ranger staff enforcing LNT principles. Forget that it's only two rangers who will work on shifts to monitor over 800 miles of maintained trails...Pleaze spare me the BS :rolleyes:

magic_game03
11-17-2012, 19:52
uh, psycho. John, go take a hike. No, really I think you need to get some fresh air. (p.s. doesn't mean I disagree :)

4Bears
11-18-2012, 21:18
Paying an user fee has been going on for sometime in other National parks wheather it is an entrance fee or a backcountry camping fee, Isle Royale is one example, all I can say is ante up and enjoy.

RED-DOG
11-19-2012, 13:28
About time the GSMNP came to their senses and started charging people, I say pay up or shut up.

Montana Mac
12-02-2012, 12:00
GSMNP is one of the only national parks in the country that doesn't charge an entrance fee. It's also the most visited park. Thru hikers create the most backcountry damage (outside of storms and natural damage). Thru hikers leave trash, crap wherever they please, wash dishes/clothes in the water systems, leave food out for the bears, start fires where they're not supposed to, camp wherever they please despite the damage it does, destroy shelters, etc. And, despite all of the "I love nature. We need to protect this precious natural resource" rhetoric, ppl are crying over 4$ and devising their plans to screw the park more. I spend A LOT of time in The Smokies...way more than the 8 or so nights most thru hikers do. If the park workers/volunteers weren't so busy picking up after sloppy thru hikers (some of whom are just downright piggish), maybe some other trails could get maintained too. But instead of fixing trails that have been closed for years, ungrateful thru hikers get new shelters for their 8 night visit...and they're STILL complaining.

I agree with this post. People are slobs!

I spend a lot of time in Yellwostone NP during the summer. Not only do they have an entry fee they also have a camping fee and a fee for a fishing license. You want the facilities yet nobody wants to pay for them.


IMO your post is simply FOS

IMOHO his post is NOT FOS! While on my hike in 09 I actually came across where some human pig defecated right in the middle of the trail in the Smokies. I was also amazed and POed at the amount of toilet paper and garbage all along the trail. I met one trail angle in VA whose trail name is Garbage Man or Trash Man because he spends his time on the trail picking up all the friggin garbage.

Tipi Walter
12-02-2012, 12:28
Thanks for the article. I like the idea of online resevations. Makes it alot easier. Also $4 a night is still a bargin. They charge $5 in the Desolation Wilderness so...

Desolation only charges a max of $10 for up to 14 days of camping and it does not tell you where to camp at all except for the first night. Totally unlike the Smokies as they want you to tell them exactly where you'll be on a night-by-night basis. Unworkable for, say, a 10 day trip.


I just came through the A.T. section of the Smokies three weeks ago. Some of the new shelters are really nice, with translucent roofs and some newly designed eating areas that look like they are missing bar stools. But it was a big mistake to not put privies on site. Seriously, no privies. Paying to stay at a shelter is a bad precedent. Soon we will have to pay a fee to register with the ATC to get a permit to travel the Trail, then a State Fee when entering each state and a Federal fee for crossing state lines.

I've been saying this all along. Acquiescence to GSMNP fees will bleed into more fees on the AT with the eventual $5 a night charge to thruhike the AT and with every campsite reserved along its 2,000 mile length. Unworkable.


My god WHAT is the problem? It's $4!

This acceptance of the fee I call Acquiescence. And it's just not the $4 fee but the unworkable system of requiring all backpackers to reserve each site for each night. How will I know where I'll be on Day 8 or a 12 day trip? Unworkable.


I' not finished,darn it!!!
This here I pad thingy just Tears me up!!!!
What a mess on the downhill side of those shelters!!!
Ridge runners telling everyone to grab the shovel and crap in a fifty square yard area in front of the shelter.
I must admit , I don't have the solution as Privvies are hard to maintain but all that shoot paper blowin in the wind,AHHHHHHHHHHH and UGHHHHHHH!!!!!
Does anyone have a solution to this ?
Money wasted on reservations might well be better spent on education and some form of privy mgt during the busy season...
Jus sayin.....

The solution is Dispersed Camping and the removal of all trail shelters in the Smokies. Dispersed camping means opening up the 500,000 acres to wherever-you-want camping as is done in the Dolly Sods wilderness, the Cohutta and Big Frog wilderness, the Mt Rogers Backcountry and so far pretty much anywhere you want to camp on the BMT or the AT or the Foothills trails or in the Cherokee or Pisgah or Jefferson or Nantahala national forests. The Park has around 100 designated backcountry sites for overnighters. Give each an allowance of 2 acres and thats 200 acres for backpackers to camp on. 200 acres out of 500,000?? It's absurd.


About time the GSMNP came to their senses and started charging people, I say pay up or shut up.

I just wish the car drivers could pay a $20 entrance fee and then pay up and shut up. Why zero in on the backpackers? What about the vehicle access into the Park? Especially since the Park has the worst air pollution of any park in the US?? TN state legislature could institute this entrance fee if they'd just pull out the giant tick lodged between their ears.

moytoy
12-02-2012, 13:58
I pretty much agree with all you preach about this issue TW. But the problem with the Tennessee Legislators is that they are elected officials and most Tennesseans won't agree with you. If it could be shown that a car entrance fee would benefit the Park and then a yearly pass could be issued to local users for a reduced price...well then maybe it could happen. But frankly I don't believe it ever will.

Wise Old Owl
12-02-2012, 15:16
My god WHAT is the problem? It's $4! The same people who complain about how run down the shelters are, turn around and complain when the shelters get fixed. I'm sure the $4 will help clean up and clear the many trails that have been hit hard. So many ppl say they love the Smokies, but not very many ppl are out there helping to clean them up.

Ha we are CHEAP and we love to complain and Chin is right - Not $1 is going to improvements - it feeds the ...

Wise Old Owl
12-02-2012, 15:20
What’s in the Air? http://www.nature.nps.gov/air/Permits/ARIS/grsm/images/grsm_map.jpg
Great Smoky Mountains NP, North Carolina and Tennessee
Most visitors expect clean air and good visibility in parks. However, Great Smoky Mountains National Park (NP) in North Carolina and Tennessee, experiences some of the highest measured air pollution of any national park in the U.S. The park is downwind of many sources of air pollution, including power plants, factories, vehicles, and agriculture. Some of these sources are nearby, while others are regional—such as pollution stacks along the Ohio River and industrial cities of the Southeast and Midwest—or even global. Air pollutants carried into the park can harm natural and scenic resources including streams, soils, forests, fish and wildlife, and visibility.

George
12-11-2012, 23:47
good reason for an early start - get out of there before the fees

seriously though, it is about time the hikers pay something - nearly every other outdoor sport - fishing, hunting boating etc has fees, and/ or targeted excise taxes - look at all the gamelands owned AT corridor in PA - paid for by the hunters, used by the hikers - naturally everyone likes it when getting something paid for by others but the attitude of entitlement is a little naive.

canoe
12-12-2012, 00:47
I love when ppl who live hundreds of miles away and read one or two articles on the Internet consider themselves experts on a topic. The fee is instituted and collected under the Federal Lands Recreation Enhancement Act...which, if you'll read that tells what and where the money goes, what it cannot be used for, and how it is used to enhance and maintain sites, build privies, etc

There is also a cap of $20 ROTFLOL You really believe that. Oh the gov said it...must be true....lol

George P Burdell
12-14-2012, 20:43
I don't like the new fee, but after reading the FAQ on the park website, I see one possible good thing about the new system for me: it allows for one free itinerary change after you've paid for your reservation. Why do I care about that?...because one of my favorite things to do is stay at the Le Conte shelter during winter storms. In past years, people have reserved all the available shelter spots weeks/months in advance. Then when a snow storm would come in, most of the people just didn't show up, and they didn't call the park to cancel. So sometimes I couldn't get a permit even though I knew there would be space in the shelter. My hope is that now people will change their permit dates since they have money invested.

I'm with Tipi Walter on opening up more areas of the park for camping. Heck, I would be happy if I could just camp on the closed road to Clingman's Dome in the winter when it's snowed over. On top of snow, on top of asphalt- that is true zero impact camping!

ATL Backpacker
01-02-2013, 00:16
On top of all the deceit on the part of NPS enacting this fee, there is the question of how really is this benefiting the park? NPS has stated that no additional revenue will be generated b/c of this fee. The 2 rangers they speak of are already funded by Friends of the GSMNP. 100% of this revenue goes to the reservation system per NPS. The old reservation system was fine with the the vast majority of backpackers. Public comments were 20-1 against the fee.

As some have already stated here this is simply a test run to pave way for a bevy of fees to come. Backpackers are the easiest target and smallest group, thus we are the first.

If the revenue was used to maintain/improve trails and campsites you'd likely get more backpacker support for the fee. Instead NPS spends money repaving perfectly good roads and parking lots.

Don H
01-02-2013, 08:59
IMOHO his post is NOT FOS! While on my hike in 09 I actually came across where some human pig defecated right in the middle of the trail in the Smokies.

Yea, occasionally you'll have some slob doing stuff like this, if I recall '09 was the year some thru-hiker was taking dumps on the trail on a regular bases. However I believe this is rare bad behavior for a thru-hiker and that most of us follow the rules and practice reasonable respect for our trail. My guess is most of the trash is left by day hikers. I was surprised to see very little trash on the trail once you get away from road crossings.

onecamper
01-06-2013, 21:30
Desolation only charges a max of $10 for up to 14 days of camping and it does not tell you where to camp at all except for the first night. Totally unlike the Smokies as they want you to tell them exactly where you'll be on a night-by-night basis. Unworkable for, say, a 10 day trip.



I've been saying this all along. Acquiescence to GSMNP fees will bleed into more fees on the AT with the eventual $5 a night charge to thruhike the AT and with every campsite reserved along its 2,000 mile length. Unworkable.



This acceptance of the fee I call Acquiescence. And it's just not the $4 fee but the unworkable system of requiring all backpackers to reserve each site for each night. How will I know where I'll be on Day 8 or a 12 day trip? Unworkable.



The solution is Dispersed Camping and the removal of all trail shelters in the Smokies. Dispersed camping means opening up the 500,000 acres to wherever-you-want camping as is done in the Dolly Sods wilderness, the Cohutta and Big Frog wilderness, the Mt Rogers Backcountry and so far pretty much anywhere you want to camp on the BMT or the AT or the Foothills trails or in the Cherokee or Pisgah or Jefferson or Nantahala national forests. The Park has around 100 designated backcountry sites for overnighters. Give each an allowance of 2 acres and thats 200 acres for backpackers to camp on. 200 acres out of 500,000?? It's absurd.



I just wish the car drivers could pay a $20 entrance fee and then pay up and shut up. Why zero in on the backpackers? What about the vehicle access into the Park? Especially since the Park has the worst air pollution of any park in the US?? TN state legislature could institute this entrance fee if they'd just pull out the giant tick lodged between their ears.
+1

I could live with increased fines for litterbugs. $500 for the first offense would make people think twice and then you would be directly addressing the problem. This fee is about control, nothing else, don't kid yourselves..

Wise Old Owl
01-06-2013, 23:27
My god WHAT is the problem? It's $4! The same people who complain about how run down the shelters are, turn around and complain when the shelters get fixed. I'm sure the $4 will help clean up and clear the many trails that have been hit hard. So many ppl say they love the Smokies, but not very many ppl are out there helping to clean them up.


GSMNP is one of the only national parks in the country that doesn't charge an entrance fee. It's also the most visited park. Thru hikers create the most backcountry damage (outside of storms and natural damage). Thru hikers leave trash, crap wherever they please, wash dishes/clothes in the water systems, leave food out for the bears, start fires where they're not supposed to, camp wherever they please despite the damage it does, destroy shelters, etc. And, despite all of the "I love nature. We need to protect this precious natural resource" rhetoric, ppl are crying over 4$ and devising their plans to screw the park more. I spend A LOT of time in The Smokies...way more than the 8 or so nights most thru hikers do. If the park workers/volunteers weren't so busy picking up after sloppy thru hikers (some of whom are just downright piggish), maybe some other trails could get maintained too. But instead of fixing trails that have been closed for years, ungrateful thru hikers get new shelters for their 8 night visit...and they're STILL complaining.

Are you actually a hiker? I am with Chin on this... charge an entrance fee. Not one dollar right now is going for clean up. You are out of your league. Noobs and people without a clue do the stuff you are taking about.

Wise Old Owl
01-06-2013, 23:42
Correct me if I'm wrong (and I probably am) but didn't volunteers upgrade the shelters? Isn't it true that NO federal money is used to maintain the trails? However, I bet federal money is used to maintain the roads that millions drive on per year in the park. i understand they can't charge an entry fee, and I will pay the $4 because I think it will be a benefit to do it online as opposed to on the phone (more convenient for most) but I think it's unfair to backpackers.


You pay a couple of bucks to support 911 each month. There is clearly is a hidden tax to support the poor to have cell phones for about $3 per person." A program called Lifeline Assistance, originally intended to help low-income people install landline telephone service, has existed for decades. It was implemented by the Federal Communications Commission in 1984, and has changed several times over the years" However - roads within parks are such a low priority they are rarely fixed in national parks as they require a environmental impact study.


Here is one of many stories, hopefully this will change your opinion.

http://www.npca.org/news/media-center/fact-sheets/on-the-road-to-ruin.html

Odd Man Out
01-07-2013, 01:02
I do not want to get involved in the fee debate. However, people seem to keep asking why GSMNP is charging fees to campers and not to the millions of other guests. The reason is they can't. How this informs you opinions is up to you.

http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/whyfree.htm

Accorn
01-07-2013, 13:40
GSMNP is one of the only national parks in the country that doesn't charge an entrance fee. It's also the most visited park. Thru hikers create the most backcountry damage (outside of storms and natural damage). Thru hikers leave trash, crap wherever they please, wash dishes/clothes in the water systems, leave food out for the bears, start fires where they're not supposed to, camp wherever they please despite the damage it does, destroy shelters, etc. And, despite all of the "I love nature. We need to protect this precious natural resource" rhetoric, ppl are crying over 4$ and devising their plans to screw the park more. I spend A LOT of time in The Smokies...way more than the 8 or so nights most thru hikers do. If the park workers/volunteers weren't so busy picking up after sloppy thru hikers (some of whom are just downright piggish), maybe some other trails could get maintained too. But instead of fixing trails that have been closed for years, ungrateful thru hikers get new shelters for their 8 night visit...and they're STILL complaining.

Your opinion and analysis though interesting are incorrect. If Thru-hikers were to blame for the problems you claim then the entire trail would experience such "trash, crap, food, etc.", yet this clearly is not the norm outside of the park. The $4 fee is bothersome because there is no reason for it. The land is already owned by the peoples of the United States and ATC monies are already appropriated for supporting the volunteer efforts required to maintain this and all trail sections. At issue for us is how this fee will: a) increase, and b) spread to other sections such as is the case with the AMC's private monopoly of the Whites (where hundreds can now be required over a week of travel).

Rasty
01-07-2013, 14:11
GSMNP is one of the only national parks in the country that doesn't charge an entrance fee. It's also the most visited park. Thru hikers create the most backcountry damage (outside of storms and natural damage). Thru hikers leave trash, crap wherever they please, wash dishes/clothes in the water systems, leave food out for the bears, start fires where they're not supposed to, camp wherever they please despite the damage it does, destroy shelters, etc. And, despite all of the "I love nature. We need to protect this precious natural resource" rhetoric, ppl are crying over 4$ and devising their plans to screw the park more. I spend A LOT of time in The Smokies...way more than the 8 or so nights most thru hikers do. If the park workers/volunteers weren't so busy picking up after sloppy thru hikers (some of whom are just downright piggish), maybe some other trails could get maintained too. But instead of fixing trails that have been closed for years, ungrateful thru hikers get new shelters for their 8 night visit...and they're STILL complaining.

I saw the same issues on the lakeshore trail. Yep must have been the thru hikers.

ChinMusic
01-07-2013, 15:23
Hey moderators - Anyway we can change the title of this thread? I am sure I am not the only thru that keeps clicking on this thread for actual news on the new system. We have a rough outline of what is going down but do not know the logistics.

Karma13
01-07-2013, 15:35
I am sure I am not the only thru that keeps clicking on this thread for actual news on the new system.

I keep clicking, too! Trying to learn the specifics of when, how, where to deliver my $20, whenever they get the info figured out.

Rasty
01-07-2013, 15:40
I keep clicking, too! Trying to learn the specifics of when, how, where to deliver my $20, whenever they get the info figured out.

I keep looking at the GSMNP's website for any updates as I'm planning to go at the end of the month. I'm betting the start date will not be announced. The system will just go into effect without warning.

Bill Strebler
01-21-2013, 21:04
I can't remember the start date, but if it hasn't started it is at least by some time next month. As mentioned, there is a $20 cap per person, but if you've got several kids it can get expensive in a hurry. Most of the park requires a back country pass. It can be obtained online and printed, and if you're paying the $20 max you can put your earliest possible date to start. For through hikers, defined as people starting at least 50 miles before and ending at least 50 miles after GSMNP, the exact scheduling for shelters isn't as critical as it seems. There are at least four spots reserved at each shelter for through hikers for that situation, then there is tent camping outside the shelters.

I don't imagine there is any situation that is going to make everybody happy. To me it seems the fees kind of go against the spirit of the AT concept as a whole, but things cost money- not that I agree with the way it's being spent. I think most of the money will come from people with GSMNP as a destination, which seems a little more reasonable. A lot of people commute on 441, though, and toll roads are among my least favorite things. Isn't there enough gas tax already to pay for that?

tds1195
01-21-2013, 21:06
Thanks for sharing! Good article and it's pretty sweet that it's only $4. Glad to see them using the internet for more efficient methods.

Biggie Master
01-21-2013, 21:33
I called for some other info last week, and out of curiosity asked about the new system. I was told at that point (1/17/13) that the system is in beta testing now...

ChinMusic
01-21-2013, 21:44
I called for some other info last week, and out of curiosity asked about the new system. I was told at that point (1/17/13) that the system is in beta testing now...

I guess that is OK, I'll just consider my hike a beta thru.

atmilkman
01-22-2013, 19:26
Reservation and permitting process will take effect on Feb. 13, 2013.

Songbird
01-26-2013, 06:50
Too many people are uninformed on the facts about this fee. It will not improve anything. The only thing it does is fund 2 rangers to patrol and make sure you've paid your fee, and makes it harder on thruhikers. It wont be used to repair trails or shelters. This has been confirmed by the park superindendent himself. I suggest visiting the southern forest watch site http://www.southernforestwatch.org/ to learn the TRUTH behind this double taxation and will donate to bring this to court and with some luck stop it altogether. All I can say for myself is that if this fee is enacted, good luck finding me, ill do my camping just off the trail well away from the shelters and campsites.

WingedMonkey
01-26-2013, 10:40
Too many people are uninformed on the facts about this fee. It will not improve anything. The only thing it does is fund 2 rangers to patrol and make sure you've paid your fee, and makes it harder on thruhikers. It wont be used to repair trails or shelters. This has been confirmed by the park superindendent himself. I suggest visiting the southern forest watch site http://www.southernforestwatch.org/ to learn the TRUTH behind this double taxation and will donate to bring this to court and with some luck stop it altogether. All I can say for myself is that if this fee is enacted, good luck finding me, ill do my camping just off the trail well away from the shelters and campsites.

Thank you. Maybe if they collect enough fines from fools, they won't raise any more fees on hikers following the rules.
:p

Songbird
01-26-2013, 22:57
Why follow unfair rules that are forced upon the public who are 18 to 1 against it? Playing their game only tells them you support it. Can't fine what you cant find.

sgt easy
02-01-2013, 15:48
As ATMilkman says: the fee will go into efffect on 2/13. I just called to make my reservations (the online system is not up yet) and was told that as long as you make your reservation by the 13th, you don't have to pay the 20 bucks; and there is a 38 day window after you make your reservation for you to transit the park. So, if you're leaving early in the season, you're in luck; if not, ya gotta pay to play...

Blue Mountain Edward
02-01-2013, 16:37
Could have charged vehicles a entry fee. Roads and parking lots cost money and need maintenance. Then you are required to camp at designated spots with no privys. Seems like a shltty idea.

ATL Backpacker
02-01-2013, 21:15
Could have charged vehicles a entry fee. Roads and parking lots cost money and need maintenance. Then you are required to camp at designated spots with no privys. Seems like a shltty idea.

I don't know the exact language but NPS is prohibited with charging an entry fee to the park. Dates back to the original agreement when they were acquiring land.

aficion
02-01-2013, 21:35
Too many people are uninformed on the facts about this fee. It will not improve anything. The only thing it does is fund 2 rangers to patrol and make sure you've paid your fee, and makes it harder on thruhikers. It wont be used to repair trails or shelters. This has been confirmed by the park superindendent himself. I suggest visiting the southern forest watch site http://www.southernforestwatch.org/ to learn the TRUTH behind this double taxation and will donate to bring this to court and with some luck stop it altogether. All I can say for myself is that if this fee is enacted, good luck finding me, ill do my camping just off the trail well away from the shelters and campsites.
Me too. Shelter areas are filthy anyway with no privies provided.

Lone Wolf
02-01-2013, 21:37
if one plans to walk the whole trail in one season, that person needs to research all the parks to know what's required of them. being uninformed is a lame excuse

MuddyWaters
02-02-2013, 00:57
I don't know the exact language but NPS is prohibited with charging an entry fee to the park. Dates back to the original agreement when they were acquiring land.

I dont recall if that is the case.
They are however prohibited from charging a fee on 441, which bisects the park. Building that road was part of the deal for aquiring the land from the states.

It seems stupid to me, build a great national park because its land that should be protected and saved for all, and then build a highway right down the middle of it, spoiling the wilderness aspect of much of it. Politicians.

Feral Bill
02-02-2013, 01:30
I dont recall if that is the case.
They are however prohibited from charging a fee on 441, which bisects the park. Building that road was part of the deal for aquiring the land from the states.

It seems stupid to me, build a great national park because its land that should be protected and saved for all, and then build a highway right down the middle of it, spoiling the wilderness aspect of much of it. Politicians. Road development has been part of NPS policy forever, until recent years. It's not unique to the Smokies.

Helas
05-24-2013, 10:30
Yeah. I agree with all. The article is really nice and most informative. I would like thanks to you that you share this post here with us. It is really helpful and appreciable. I also hope that you post more threads here.

birdygal
05-27-2013, 19:44
they have lowered their fees to use their campgrounds it was $23 a few years ago now its $17 plus its seems to be on an honor system as there was no one collecting when we used 2 different campgrounds there last month

Epoling
05-30-2013, 18:02
Just so I am clear on this...
I am leaving Saturday morning for the trail head at Springer. I just heard about this permit today and by the time I called the back country office it was closed for the night. If I pay the fee tonight and make my reservation tonight will I immediately be able to print out my permit?
btw I am attempting this on about a weeks planning and prep. Physically I am in good condition but definetly beginning to worry that there are fees and obstacles I did not know about. Like this.

hikerboy57
05-30-2013, 19:19
Just so I am clear on this...
I am leaving Saturday morning for the trail head at Springer. I just heard about this permit today and by the time I called the back country office it was closed for the night. If I pay the fee tonight and make my reservation tonight will I immediately be able to print out my permit?
btw I am attempting this on about a weeks planning and prep. Physically I am in good condition but definetly beginning to worry that there are fees and obstacles I did not know about. Like this.

yes the permit gets sent immediately to your email where you can print it out. you need a valid email address to do it on line

George
11-22-2013, 16:27
link:

https://smokiespermits.nps.gov/permitappatth.cfm

sliderule
11-23-2013, 12:19
they have lowered their fees to use their campgrounds it was $23 a few years ago now its $17 plus its seems to be on an honor system as there was no one collecting when we used 2 different campgrounds there last month

Campground fees vary by campground and, is some cases, the specific campsite. I suspect that you will be hardpressed to cite an actual reduction in the fee schedule.

http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/frontcountry-camping.htm

LuckyMan
11-23-2013, 13:49
I don't get it; fees for backcountry sites in the Smokies aren't starting early next year; they are already in place. In September I went online and paid $40 for a couple of weeks of backcountry camping in GSMNP in October (of course, then some congressional morons pitched their temper tantrum and caused the parks to close with their extremely expensive government non-shutdown, but at least NPS kept its promise and refunded the fees).

sliderule
11-23-2013, 13:59
I don't get it; fees for backcountry sites in the Smokies aren't starting early next year; they are already in place.

It's all a matter of perspective. What was "next year" in 2012 will be "last year" in 2014.

HooKooDooKu
11-25-2013, 10:04
I don't get it; fees for backcountry sites in the Smokies aren't starting early next year; they are already in place.
Pay attention to dates... this thread is over a year old. It had actually almost died (no posting in 6 months) until someone added the link to the reservation system.

bamboo bob
11-25-2013, 10:27
I just came through the A.T. section of the Smokies three weeks ago. Some of the new shelters are really nice, with translucent roofs and some newly designed eating areas that look like they are missing bar stools. But it was a big mistake to not put privies on site. Seriously, no privies. Paying to stay at a shelter is a bad precedent. Soon we will have to pay a fee to register with the ATC to get a permit to travel the Trail, then a State Fee when entering each state and a Federal fee for crossing state lines.

You left out paying the caretaker at every shelter and campsite. $8 a night GA-Me. It's inevitable.

bamboo bob
11-25-2013, 10:31
I' not finished,darn it!!!
This here I pad thingy just Tears me up!!!!
I don't have the solution as Privvies are hard to maintain but all that shoot paper blowin in the wind,AHHHHHHHHHHH and UGHHHHHHH!!!!!
Does anyone have a solution to this ?

Money wasted on reservations might well be better spent on education and some form of privy mgt during the busy season...
Jus sayin.....
Actually, the solution is to go off trail instead of at the shelter. Disbursing all along the trail, 100 ft off trail. In a cat hole.

Joey
03-31-2015, 03:37
I agree with this post. People are slobs!

I spend a lot of time in Yellwostone NP during the summer. Not only do they have an entry fee they also have a camping fee and a fee for a fishing license. You want the facilities yet nobody wants to pay for them.



IMOHO his post is NOT FOS! While on my hike in 09 I actually came across where some human pig defecated right in the middle of the trail in the Smokies. I was also amazed and POed at the amount of toilet paper and garbage all along the trail. I met one trail angle in VA whose trail name is Garbage Man or Trash Man because he spends his time on the trail picking up all the friggin garbage.


One minor mistake here! He only mentions "thru hikers" in his rant! Well, I too have spent MANY MANY nights on the trails and shelters in the Smokies! I had more issues with "TOURIST HIKERS" and inexperienced ones at that who did not care one bit about leaving trash or waste behind, not to mention bringing alcohol into these areas which is against the law! Never had one issue with a thru hiker! They to me are more concerned about cleaning up behind themselves unlike the tourons (tourists aka morons) have! I just hope they start enforcing some of the regulations in the backcountry!

nuknees
03-31-2015, 17:37
I just came through the A.T. section of the Smokies three weeks ago. Some of the new shelters are really nice, with translucent roofs and some newly designed eating areas that look like they are missing bar stools. But it was a big mistake to not put privies on site. Seriously, no privies. Paying to stay at a shelter is a bad precedent. Soon we will have to pay a fee to register with the ATC to get a permit to travel the Trail, then a State Fee when entering each state and a Federal fee for crossing state lines.

...and your name and address...because they like to send out a mailer....:)

gollwoods
04-16-2015, 07:06
the poo on the trail is usually hog, itissmallish but looks like people poo. maybe this was the case hopefully.

George
09-06-2015, 16:27
It seems stupid to me, build a great national park because its land that should be protected and saved for all, and then build a highway right down the middle of it, spoiling the wilderness aspect of much of it. Politicians.

ignorance on ones part should not be a reason to call another stupid - the road existed before the park

MuddyWaters
09-06-2015, 16:43
ignorance on ones part should not be a reason to call another stupid - the road existed before the park

Keeping the highway open was a deal made with nc and tn when aquiring the lands for the park. It was and is, stupid to bisect it with traffic. The feds could have forced it without the agreement in other ways. Just not popular.

At least they successfully banned commercial traffic, although 18 wheelers are even preferable to the ridiculous loud motorcycle idiots. They dont care about the park, they want to ride their obnoxious toy somewhere fun and curvy.

HooKooDooKu
09-07-2015, 23:22
That road bisecting the park is also the reason there is no entrance fee for GSMNP. It's because the road existed, and the states didn't want the federal government to start charging people for use of this road is what brought about the agreement that allows us to enter the park for free.

Traveler
09-08-2015, 06:48
Keeping the highway open was a deal made with nc and tn when aquiring the lands for the park. It was and is, stupid to bisect it with traffic. The feds could have forced it without the agreement in other ways. Just not popular.

At least they successfully banned commercial traffic, although 18 wheelers are even preferable to the ridiculous loud motorcycle idiots. They dont care about the park, they want to ride their obnoxious toy somewhere fun and curvy.

This is a growing pet peeve, with each passing year it seems these machines get louder in their riders seemingly incessant need to compensate for natures genetic cruelty.