Gonna cost 20$ to thru-hike the Smokies in 2013

[moldy]

I talked on the phone today with the GSMNP public affairs office about 2013 thru hiking. They have not worked out the details on how it will work. For thru-hikers it will cost 20 dollars for your back country permit. Thats the one that was free and available at the Fontana dam box as well as all park visitors centers and the outfitter in Hot Springs for SOBO's. They have not worked out just how you will be paying the 20 bucks or if the permit will be date specific. They did go on to say that thru-hikers will be allowed to stay in any AT shelter or campground without reservations just like it is now.

[swjohnsey]

How generous of them.

[Tipi Walter]

Maybe this is the door to charging every AT backpacker $5 per night from Georgia to Maine.

[Nutbrown]

With the amount of trash left behind during thru season, maybe a small charge should be put in place. We're already spending $4000 or more for a thru, what's an extra $20 going to do?

[Lone Wolf]

$20 is nothing in the big picture

[CrumbSnatcher]

i'd gladly pay the 20.00 bucks

[Tipi Walter]

i'd gladly pay the 20.00 bucks

Can anyone say Acquiescence?

[Lone Wolf]

Can anyone say Acquiescence?

you sure do spend a lot of time on here whinin' with a computer that uses electricity generated by burning coal. you need to go out in the wood

[CrumbSnatcher]

-------------------------------------------------

[swjohnsey]

"First they came for the . . . "

[yellowsirocco]

"First they came for the . . . "
freeloaders who don't do trail maintenance and feel entitled everything for free.

Hopefully most of the fee will go to the SMHC for trail maintenance or hell even buying them some beer. At least give Ox a beer, he is the man.

[Tipi Walter]

you sure do spend a lot of time on here whinin' with a computer that uses electricity generated by burning coal. you need to go out in the wood

We're all sucking in mercury. So you're okay with a 5 dollar nightly fee on all of the AT if the tent police decide it's right? Or just 20 bucks for the Park?

[Tipi Walter]

freeloaders who don't do trail maintenance and feel entitled everything for free.

Hopefully most of the fee will go to the SMHC for trail maintenance or hell even buying them some beer. At least give Ox a beer, he is the man.

We pay for it. It's called taxes, otherwise every road would be a toll road. And there are plenty of places to go bushwack-backpacking without trails. That's all my buddy Hootyhoo does---off trail trips. Does he feel entitled? Naw, he earns his bag nights.

[swjohnsey]

freeloaders who don't do trail maintenance and feel entitled everything for free.

Hopefully most of the fee will go to the SMHC for trail maintenance or hell even buying them some beer. At least give Ox a beer, he is the man.

None of the fee will go for trail maintenance. I always figured that fat check I send to the IRS every year bought me somethin'. How much trail maintenance have you done?

[peakbagger]

In the WMNF the government insitituted a parking fee and for a couple of years a lot of work got done to improve trailhead parking and funded trailwork. Unfortunately during the next few budget cycles, the extra money was subtracted from the regular budget and the there was no net revenue. Then the lawsuit against parking fees was won out west and now the WMNF has to either do major upgrades to each trailhead or pull the parking permit required signs. The USFS is basically only requiring permits at very popular trailheads, mostly the one that AMC guests use to access the huts and were already somewhat upgraded.

If the federal budget is going to be cut expect a lot more user fees.

[Tipi Walter]

In the WMNF the government insitituted a parking fee and for a couple of years a lot of work got done to improve trailhead parking and funded trailwork. Unfortunately during the next few budget cycles, the extra money was subtracted from the regular budget and the there was no net revenue. Then the lawsuit against parking fees was won out west and now the WMNF has to either do major upgrades to each trailhead or pull the parking permit required signs. The USFS is basically only requiring permits at very popular trailheads, mostly the one that AMC guests use to access the huts and were already somewhat upgraded.

If the federal budget is going to be cut expect a lot more user fees.

If so I only hope that every car entering the GSMNP pays a $20 entrance fee. Especially since it's the most air-polluted park in the country.

[quilteresq]

I don't object in theory. But the fact is the with privies outlawed in Smoky Mt. National Park, it's the worst camping conditions and the only place where you are required to camp near the shelters. One journal I read stated that a couple was ordered by the ranger to pitch their tent ON a pile of (thankfully composted) horse manure. When it poured that night, their tent was not only in the lowest spot in the area, all that manure got onto their tent wet! One of the reasons I'm hammocking. That an it's darned hard to find a flat camping spot in the Whites.

[Jeff]

I believe Stratton Pond Shelter in Vermont has for many years been the first "pay" shelter for northbounders. Now with these new rules in the Smokies, it's a bargin. A one-time $5 covers all shelters along the AT in Vermont !!!!!

[Spokes]

I talked on the phone today with the GSMNP public affairs office about 2013 thru hiking. They have not worked out the details on how it will work. For thru-hikers it will cost 20 dollars for your back country permit...

Wonder if it will require us having to stand in line?

Let's hope the bureaucrats don't mandate filling out a dozen forms (in triplicate), then having them notorized before proceeding.

[Tipi Walter]

I don't object in theory. But the fact is the with privies outlawed in Smoky Mt. National Park, it's the worst camping conditions and the only place where you are required to camp near the shelters. One journal I read stated that a couple was ordered by the ranger to pitch their tent ON a pile of (thankfully composted) horse manure. When it poured that night, their tent was not only in the lowest spot in the area, all that manure got onto their tent wet! One of the reasons I'm hammocking. That an it's darned hard to find a flat camping spot in the Whites.

Here's my quandary---there are 500,000 acres in the Smokies. Of these, there are around 100 backcountry sites so let's be generous and say each site is 2 acres. So, those 200 acres are the only allowed out of five hundred thousand? People will counter, "But this way the Park focuses the worst damage in a small area." But I believe 500,000 acres of free-roaming sites will disperse every backpacker well without the need for reservations. Mt Rogers backcountry gets thousands of backpackers a year and there's wide open camping permitted.

And the AT is I guess a linear National Park and gets hundreds of thousands of backpackers per year and yet for the most part there's no designated camping spots.

[10-K]

Unless you're thru hiking what's the allure of the park anyway? There are so many other places to hike and camp that are just as incredible without the cumbersome regulations.

[Tipi Walter]

Unless you're thru hiking what's the allure of the park anyway? There are so many other places to hike and camp that are just as incredible without the cumbersome regulations.

Yeah but people here on Whiteblaze and backpackers in general seem to fixate on the Park. And there's a huge group of outdoorsmen who are willing to jump thru these hoops. Telling honchos were I'm going to be camping on Day 16 of a 21 day trip ain't possible.

[Marta]

Leaving aside all my previously-stated objections to the new system, this seems like a reasonable accommodation for thru-hikers.

[swjohnsey]

Here's my quandary---there are 500,000 acres in the Smokies. Of these, there are around 100 backcountry sites so let's be generous and say each site is 2 acres. So, those 200 acres are the only allowed out of five hundred thousand? People will counter, "But this way the Park focuses the worst damage in a small area." But I believe 500,000 acres of free-roaming sites will disperse every backpacker well without the need for reservations. Mt Rogers backcountry gets thousands of backpackers a year and there's wide open camping permitted.

And the AT is I guess a linear National Park and gets hundreds of thousands of backpackers per year and yet for the most park there's no designated camping spots.

Don't try to confuse us with facts. There are roughly 2,000 thru-hikers over the 2,000+ miles of the AT over a year, only one thru-hiker per mile per day. Hellofa impact.

[Starchild]

Glad they eliminated hassling the thru hikers with reservation requirements.

[Tipi Walter]

Don't try to confuse us with facts. There are roughly 2,000 thru-hikers over the 2,000+ miles of the AT over a year, only one thru-hiker per mile per day. Hellofa impact.

There are thousands of weekenders and thousands of boy scouts and section hikers.

[Slo-go'en]

Here's my quandary---there are 500,000 acres in the Smokies. Of these, there are around 100 backcountry sites so let's be generous and say each site is 2 acres. So, those 200 acres are the only allowed out of five hundred thousand? People will counter, "But this way the Park focuses the worst damage in a small area." But I believe 500,000 acres of free-roaming sites will disperse every backpacker well without the need for reservations. Mt Rogers backcountry gets thousands of backpackers a year and there's wide open camping permitted.

And the AT is I guess a linear National Park and gets hundreds of thousands of backpackers per year and yet for the most part there's no designated camping spots.

Of those 500K acres, most of it's steep and heaviely wooded, not suitable for camping or even getting into it. Trails and campsites are located where they are for good reasons.

99% of hikers on the AT stay at shelters or other designated sites - also for good reasons.

The thing that gets me about the reservation fees is that the fees are just to pay for the system, nothing else.

[swjohnsey]

Of those 500K acres, most of it's steep and heaviely wooded, not suitable for camping or even getting into it. Trails and campsites are located where they are for good reasons.

99% of hikers on the AT stay at shelters or other designated sites - also for good reasons.

The thing that gets me about the reservation fees is that the fees are just to pay for the system, nothing else.

I'm finally a member of the 1%!

[swjohnsey]

There are thousands of weekenders and thousands of boy scouts and section hikers.

Charge the Boy Scouts double.

[Tipi Walter]

Of those 500K acres, most of it's steep and heaviely wooded, not suitable for camping or even getting into it. Trails and campsites are located where they are for good reasons.


Not suitable for me cuz I have a butt-big tent but the hammockers might have a different opinion.

[hikerboy57]

Don't try to confuse us with facts. There are roughly 2,000 thru-hikers over the 2,000+ miles of the AT over a year, only one thru-hiker per mile per day. Hellofa impact.

almost twice that amount passed thru harpers ferry this year.

[swjohnsey]

almost twice that amount passed thru harpers ferry this year.

Really! I was about mid-pack and I was #316.

[hikerboy57]

Really! I was about mid-pack and I was #316.

ill correct myself. 1016 nobos passed thru harpers ferry.you can find all the numbers at http://www.appalachiantrail.org/about-the-trail/2000-milers.
my bad. i do know it was a record # of nobos for 2012.

[Tipi Walter]

"Play safe. Ski only in a clockwise direction. Let’s all have fun together." Edward Abbey

[Lyle]

Glad I've got that section out of the way. No plans to ever return.

[tdoczi]

Here's my quandary---there are 500,000 acres in the Smokies. Of these, there are around 100 backcountry sites so let's be generous and say each site is 2 acres. So, those 200 acres are the only allowed out of five hundred thousand? People will counter, "But this way the Park focuses the worst damage in a small area." But I believe 500,000 acres of free-roaming sites will disperse every backpacker well without the need for reservations. Mt Rogers backcountry gets thousands of backpackers a year and there's wide open camping permitted.

And the AT is I guess a linear National Park and gets hundreds of thousands of backpackers per year and yet for the most part there's no designated camping spots.


ive asked this before and have yet to see an answer, though i was away for a few days and may have missed it- is this idea that you are only allowed to camp at certain designated spots in the smokies really a new idea? the fee is, i dont believe being restricted to certain areas is at all. or did the old rule apply only along the AT? i really dont think it did. i hear you, but i'm pretty sure youre just now piping up about something thats been in place a very long time. only the fee is new.

[Tipi Walter]

ive asked this before and have yet to see an answer, though i was away for a few days and may have missed it- is this idea that you are only allowed to camp at certain designated spots in the smokies really a new idea? the fee is, i dont believe being restricted to certain areas is at all. or did the old rule apply only along the AT? i really dont think it did. i hear you, but i'm pretty sure youre just now piping up about something thats been in place a very long time. only the fee is new.

What is new is making every one of the 100+ backcountry sites reservation only instead of the usual "fill out a paper permit at most trailhead kiosks and camp at any of the non-reservation sites you wish. Tain't true no more. Every site will require a beforehand, at home reservation. This is Rule Change #1. The Fee is #2.

[Starchild]

I'm sure this may be controversial to some but hey that's life. It's getting to the point that we may need a constitutional amendment to assure the rights of the people to hike the AT and actually I would welcome one as it is our land and common heritage, and as I see it the primary reason for the existence of government is to ensure the people's access to the lands and by that provision only is justification for government to exist.

The government did not create the wild lands and have very little claim on them, actually none.

As for a fee, if they can justify the expense, if no one is willing to help on a volunteer basis, and I know many people are so willing so I doubt the government can justify that fee. Those who volunteer to help and do help sometimes (often) run into government red tape and that discourages them, but that is the fault of the government and full blame is placed there, not the person who has the heart to help. I'm not saying lets just give anyone the ability to do whatever trail work they want, but let the government encourage not discourage in their motivation which they presently do not.

But until that time keep the AT hike simple, install toll booths on the trail, accept EZ pass on a AT express lane but don't hassle the thru hikers, that would be a great loss to the human spirit and thus to the country.

[Lone Wolf]

thru-hikers ain't special, starchild.

[tdoczi]

What is new is making every one of the 100+ backcountry sites reservation only instead of the usual "fill out a paper permit at most trailhead kiosks and camp at any of the non-reservation sites you wish. Tain't true no more. Every site will require a beforehand, at home reservation. This is Rule Change #1. The Fee is #2.

under current (or maybe now its previous) rules, what determined reservation site vs non reservation site?

[moytoy]

under current (or maybe now its previous) rules, what determined reservation site vs non reservation site?
If you pull up a trail map of the GSMNP the reservation sites are marked in red and the non res sites are marked in green

[moytoy]

What is new is making every one of the 100+ backcountry sites reservation only instead of the usual "fill out a paper permit at most trailhead kiosks and camp at any of the non-reservation sites you wish. Tain't true no more. Every site will require a beforehand, at home reservation. This is Rule Change #1. The Fee is #2.

I would like to see that in writing. Do you have a link to this fact. I'm not for adding fees but I am pizzed if they are going to make me reserve all back country sites.

[Starchild]

thru-hikers ain't special, starchild.
I did not mention thru-hikers

[hikerboy57]

I did not mention thru-hikers

Umm,yes you did.

[bamboo bob]

Maybe the fees will keep the riffraff out. That might be the idea. For the first time ever this year I was asked for my permit. Climbing out of Fontana Dam. One armed ranger and a Ridge Runner. Nice enough. It's really the reservation process of picking your shelter that I dislike. Many times I just hike on because i don't want to stay in a shelter with that particular group of Party Boys. I guess I'll get fined if I decide to move on.

[Starchild]

Umm,yes you did.
OK your right and yes section hikers have as much claim to access of the land as thru hikers. My bad.

[hikerboy57]

have any of you actually been to baxter? its a lot more money, and reservations are not easy to come by. yes there are a few options open to thru hikers, but guys you're talking about $20 for 5 -7 nights? its $20/nite in baxter.and if you are reserving at KSC or Abol, you better make your reservations early.
as 10k said there are plenty of places to backpack without the hassle or the fees. but if thats where you want to go, then pay the fee, thats all. if you want to thru hike, instead of spending some $3000 to cover expenses, itll just have to be $3020.is $20 going to keep you from acheiving your life goal?
yes everything in life should be free.and i would bet many of those who claim that these institutions are paid for by tax dollars, a large percentage probably dont pay any taxes at all.

[Tipi Walter]

I would like to see that in writing. Do you have a link to this fact. I'm not for adding fees but I am pizzed if they are going to make me reserve all back country sites.

Check out this initial blurb from the park boys---
http://www.nps.gov/grsm/parknews/bc-camping-fee.htm

Pay attention to the first paragraph, last sentence. In other words, every site on a reservation basis only. Have fun folks but in a clockwise direction only.

[moytoy]

Check out this initial blurb from the park boys---
http://www.nps.gov/grsm/parknews/bc-camping-fee.htm

Pay attention to the first paragraph, last sentence. In other words, every site on a reservation basis only. Have fun folks but in a clockwise direction only.
That was the March 7 anouncement and yes, I have read that paragraph over and over and I can't come to the same conclusion as you do about the reservation system. I know some non reservation sites that don't have more than 5 campers a month. It just doesn't make sense that these out of the way sites need a reservation. But I'll wait and see ( not that I have a choice:).

[Tipi Walter]

If you pull up a trail map of the GSMNP the reservation sites are marked in red and the non res sites are marked in green


That was the March 7 anouncement and yes, I have read that paragraph over and over and I can't come to the same conclusion as you do about the reservation system. I know some non reservation sites that don't have more than 5 campers a month. It just doesn't make sense that these out of the way sites need a reservation. But I'll wait and see ( not that I have a choice:).

This will change your mind---

http://gosmokies.knoxnews.com/profiles/blog/show?id=1060157%3ABlogPost%3A236980&commentId=1060157%3AComment%3A238127&xg_source=activity

Scroll up to the top and read #3---or here it is for ya---

3. Require reservations for all backcountry sites. The reservation system will have the
capability of notifying reservations holders of site closures, safety issues, or emergency
information via phone calls, text messages or emails.
The park will be aware of, and have contact information for, users at each site. The park
will be able to reliably contact each reservation holder with timely information about
closures, safety issues and other important backcountry information.
By placing all sites on the reservation system and having an increased ranger presence in
the backcountry, negative impacts to both the natural environment and to the visitor
experience from overcrowding and other conflicts will be reduced." END QUOTE

As you say, "some sites don't have more than 5 campers a month." Obviously you haven't drunk the kool-aid and gotten re-educated on the benefits yet.

[moytoy]

This will change your mind---

http://gosmokies.knoxnews.com/profiles/blog/show?id=1060157%3ABlogPost%3A236980&commentId=1060157%3AComment%3A238127&xg_source=activity

Scroll up to the top and read #3---or here it is for ya---

3. Require reservations for all backcountry sites. The reservation system will have the
capability of notifying reservations holders of site closures, safety issues, or emergency
information via phone calls, text messages or emails.
The park will be aware of, and have contact information for, users at each site. The park
will be able to reliably contact each reservation holder with timely information about
closures, safety issues and other important backcountry information.
By placing all sites on the reservation system and having an increased ranger presence in
the backcountry, negative impacts to both the natural environment and to the visitor
experience from overcrowding and other conflicts will be reduced." END QUOTE

As you say, "some sites don't have more than 5 campers a month." Obviously you haven't drunk the kool-aid and gotten re-educated on the benefits yet.
I see these as proposals and not fact (yet). No I have not drank that kool-aid. Others posting here seem to think we are being crybabys over this. I for one don't have a huge problem with a fee here or there. But I do think a backcountry backpacker should be able to move around freely on federal park land as long as basic rules and laws are followed. Having to give a day by day account of where I am is not my idea of moving around freely.

[Tipi Walter]

It's the hocus pocus of the writ-affadavit-voucher induced dementia so common with Garbled Speak---

"By placing all sites on the reservation system and having an increased ranger presence in
the backcountry, negative impacts to both the natural environment and to the visitor
experience from overcrowding and other conflicts will be reduced." QUOTE

No mention of the bumper to bumper Cades Cove traffic on the so-called nature motor loop is addressed. With unlimited car access, NOW they are worried about negative impacts to the environment? How about a car fee to mitigate overcrowding? Nope.

[moytoy]

I hear ya preacher! I've never thought motorized vehicles should be allowed around the loop.

[Sly]

It cost about $28-$32 to hiker through Glacier on the CDT.

[Pendragon]

So, we HAVE to use a shelter each night, even if we prefer to hang no where near one depending on where we end up at the end of the day? I really had no intention of trying to get to sleep nut to butt on a hard-ass floor with people who are rowdy when they are awake or snoring like volcanoes when they aren't.......

[RedRunnerJumper]

So tent camping is a no-go in GSMNP, you have to stay in the shelters?? What if a shelter is full though?

[moytoy]

So tent camping is a no-go in GSMNP, you have to stay in the shelters?? What if a shelter is full though?
No, that is not true. Nothing has changed about camping in the backcountry until the Park Service makes an announcement. Stopping tent camping is not on the agenda.

[OzJacko]

Surely once they start charging, they have no defence against well constructed and presented requests for upgrades to the shelters and campgrounds??
Sorry but I'm just thinking how as a group (e.g. thru ATC or a hiking club), hikers can try and turn the fee paying into a positive. Get in early on it while they're still figuring out how to use/allocate the money they get.
As for me, well I think the $20 won't bother me as much as the $2500 odd my airline ticket is going to cost or the cost of the 6 month visa etc.:p
Hell - a 1% drop in exchange rate will bother me more than that.

[RedRunnerJumper]

Gotcha. Ya if they stopped that for some reason, just would not be the same. I don't mind the $20 charge though... Just want to enjoy my thru hike that's all.

[Karma13]

Ditto. Hell, I'd pay them forty bucks if they'd just let me hike through, like anywhere else. And if they'd let me get the permit now and make it a window rather than specific dates. Anything to make this easier.

[Tipi Walter]

No, that is not true. Nothing has changed about camping in the backcountry until the Park Service makes an announcement. Stopping tent camping is not on the agenda.

This is old news. The Park has made the announcement long ago and the changes will go into effect 2013. My backpacking buddy John Quillen has a website devoted to this mess if anyone is interested. Check out the links below---the last one is the most important. Scroll back up on the third one to start the article---with comments following.

http://gotsmokies.ning.com/profiles/blogs/backcountry-tax-feeasco-the-unedited-and-uncensored-edition?xg_source=activity&id=6467001%3ABlogPost%3A204&page=1#comments



(http://gotsmokies.ning.com/profiles/blogs/backcountry-tax-feeasco-the-unedited-and-uncensored-edition?xg_source=activity&id=6467001%3ABlogPost%3A204&page=1#comments)http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2012/sep/20/group-announces-intent-to-sue-smokies-over-new/




http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2011/sep/05/parks-proposed-backcountry-fee-stirs-debate/?comments_id=1908093



(http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2011/sep/05/parks-proposed-backcountry-fee-stirs-debate/?comments_id=1908093)http://www.nps.gov/grsm/parkmgmt/upload/BC-Reservation-Restructuring-Proposal.pdf

[The Old Chief]

If you are 62 or older you can buy the National Parks and Federal Recreational Lands Senior Pass for $10.00. It will allow the card holder and 3 additional adults to enter any National Park area that charges a per person fee for free. www.RECREATION.gov (http://www.RECREATION.gov)

[Tipi Walter]

If you are 62 or older you can buy the National Parks and Federal Recreational Lands Senior Pass for $10.00. It will allow the card holder and 3 additional adults to enter any National Park area that charges a per person fee for free. www.RECREATION.gov (http://www.RECREATION.gov)

Sadly, I think this pass only covers areas with entrance fees which the GSMNP does not have. I see no indication that a Senior Pass will get rid of or reduce the $10 registration fee or the $4 overnight backpacker's fee.

[Ewker]

Sadly, I think this pass only covers areas with entrance fees which the GSMNP does not have. I see no indication that a Senior Pass will get rid of or reduce the $10 registration fee or the $4 overnight backpacker's fee.


The owner of the pass gets a discount for camping but the others don't. Hamhocker bought one when we were in Az over Labor Day this yr. It saved us some money

[Half Note]

$20!?!?! Now I have to postpone my thru for another four years.

[10-K]

If you're not a thru hiker and the fee is bothersome forget the park and go somewhere else.

If you are, when you get to the park pay the 20 bucks, hike fast and never go back.

[Don H]

Next thing you know they'll bring back the ten cent fee for crossing the Bear Mountain bridge. This fee stuff is gonna get out of hand! ;)
Maybe someone will do some trail magic and hand out $20s at the entrance.

[swjohnsey]

Maybe that could just charge to use the privies, post a ranger by everyone. I crap on trees anyway.

[starbright]

I'm doing a thru-hike with two of my kids so for me that's $60 dollars. And that is a big deal It's one more thing I have to figure out. Was already doing this on limited funds. It's been a dream for a long time just about got all the gear have had to cut corners on that already now got to figure out what else to do without. I guess it will be the sleeping bags and pads only thing left to buy. Oh well I guess I'll get the rest at Walmart.

[moytoy]

This is old news. The Park has made the announcement long ago and the changes will go into effect 2013. My backpacking buddy John Quillen has a website devoted to this mess if anyone is interested. Check out the links below---the last one is the most important. Scroll back up on the third one to start the article---with comments following.


Yes the links you posted are old news and I still maintain that until we see the new rules and fees published by the park service we don't know what they are.

[moytoy]

If you're not a thru hiker and the fee is bothersome forget the park and go somewhere else.

If you are, when you get to the park pay the 20 bucks, hike fast and never go back.


I agree with this in principle but for some it's a little closer to home (me included) than that. You live in Irwin and I believe you've made it clear that your happy with the fact that you are close to many hiking trails around you. Consider if the rules change and you now have to make reservation for any hikes you take around your home. I'm betting your not going to be thrilled about that.

I accept that there are going to be restrictions in the Smokies. There always have been in my lifetime. But if the new rules are going to force me to get reservations in campsites that I have used for years then I'm not in agreement with the new plan.

It's not all about the money for me!

[swjohnsey]

I don't think it is about the money for most of us, certainly not for me. Every time the government has introduced some onerous policy it has been done incrementally. I remember when they sprung the income tax on us, only 1%, only on the rich, only until the war debt is paid, Yep!

[Pedaling Fool]

I remember when they sprung the income tax on us, only 1%, only on the rich, only until the war debt is paid, Yep!You remember that, what are you a vampire? What's your real age?:D

[Praha4]

the terms of service state:

"5. Do not post inflammatory messages, spam, “off topic” posts, or hijack topics."

I made a post on this particular thread a few days ago that was deleted by WB. In the post I commented on some federal budget issues: (e.g. Nat Park Service budget vs. DOD budget items for overseas operations.) And the post was deleted. I'm assuming ANY discussion of such issues is forbidden on this website, for fear of it turning into a political roundtable. IMO this was not intended as a political post. If hikers and WB ignore politics, it is at your own peril. Government and the Forest Service have tremendous power over the future of the Appalachian Trail. Look at what is occurring now in Florida with the FNST.

Now I see other posts commenting on the federal Government's management of GSMNP that remain here. So I'm asking, what exactly is forbidden on this website as a topic of discussion?

[Tipi Walter]

the terms of service state:

"5. Do not post inflammatory messages, spam, “off topic” posts, or hijack topics."

I made a post on this particular thread a few days ago that was deleted by WB. In the post I commented on some federal budget issues: (e.g. Nat Park Service budget vs. DOD budget items for overseas operations.) And the post was deleted. I'm assuming ANY discussion of such issues is forbidden on this website, for fear of it turning into a political roundtable. IMO this was not intended as a political post. If hikers and WB ignore politics, it is at your own peril. Government and the Forest Service have tremendous power over the future of the Appalachian Trail. Look at what is occurring now in Florida with the FNST.

Now I see other posts commenting on the federal Government's management of GSMNP that remain here. So I'm asking, what exactly is forbidden on this website as a topic of discussion?

I've had several posts deleted over the years, especially the ones on stealth camping as it may be an "illegal activity". Some deletions are due to the whim of the moderator. A discussion of stealth or whatever is not the activity itself but people are prickly and even the discussion in mere words is enough to get them upset. When you have to consult the layered Terms of Agreement here in order to voice an opinion, well, welcome to correctness.

As an aside, not only have I had several posts deleted now and again, I've had my entire Trip Reports numbering in the dozens, with pics and text, deleted entirely from Whiteblaze and lost in the colon of internet flushings. The white paint honchos say it was an "accident" but who knows?

[Sly]

I've had several posts deleted over the years, especially the ones on stealth camping as it may be an "illegal activity". Some deletions are due to the whim of the moderator. A discussion of stealth or whatever is not the activity itself but people are prickly and even the discussion in mere words is enough to get them upset. When you have to consult the layered Terms of Agreement here in order to voice an opinion, well, welcome to correctness.


Stealth camping (in the truest definition, off trail, away from people) is one thing and illegal camping another. As far as I know, unless you have a special backpacking permit in the Smokys which allows it, all off trail camping (away from established sites) is illegal and not to be promoted.

And, of course, politics, when it's not directly related to, or about, hiking, backpacking etc is forbidden.

[LDog]

So tent camping is a no-go in GSMNP, you have to stay in the shelters?? What if a shelter is full though?

My understanding is that the current policy on this stands and goes something like this.

You have to stay at shelters/approved camping areas. Stealth camping is not allowed. So, yes, you have to plan your hiking day to end up at an approved site.

Section hikers have to plan their agenda, and reserve spots at approved sites. If you are a thru-hiker, because your agenda can change from day to day, you do not have to make reservations at specific sites. You only have to register, and carry a copy of your registration with you. The GSMNP defines a thru-hiker as one who starts 50 miles before heading into the GSMNP, and who will continue 50 miles beyond it.

You have to sleep in the shelter unless it is full. Currently, they only allow a certain number of spaces to be reserved, and the balance are open to thru-hikers. If the shelter is full when you arrive, you may set up your shelter within the immediate area.

It appears to me that the only thing that changes for thru-hikers is the payment of the fee. How that's gonna be extracted from us is unresolved. Smart phone app? <snerk>

[10-K]

I agree with this in principle but for some it's a little closer to home (me included) than that. You live in Irwin and I believe you've made it clear that your happy with the fact that you are close to many hiking trails around you. Consider if the rules change and you now have to make reservation for any hikes you take around your home. I'm betting your not going to be thrilled about that.

I accept that there are going to be restrictions in the Smokies. There always have been in my lifetime. But if the new rules are going to force me to get reservations in campsites that I have used for years then I'm not in agreement with the new plan.

It's not all about the money for me!

But that's not going to happen because the trails around Erwin are not in a national park and in my hiking lifetime I doubt there will ever be a charge to go hiking in Pisgah or Cherokee National Forests.

I'm sensitive to the point you're making but if you're close enough to hike in GSMNP you're close enough to many hundreds of miles of other trails that you will be able to hike next year and for many years to come that are free of cost with minimal regulation.

I can't imagine planning to go hike in GSMNP no matter how wonderful it is. Too much trouble.

[swjohnsey]

You remember that, what are you a vampire? What's your real age?:D Was 1916 that long ago?

[max patch]

I can't imagine planning to go hike in GSMNP no matter how wonderful it is. Too much trouble.

This is what I've said for years. The GSMNP is the worst 80 mile section of the entire AT. Those stupid rules are there for a reason. If you CHOOSE to hike in the GSMNP then you MUST obey the rules. If someone thinks they are special and the rules don't apply to them I hope they are caught and fined.

[Tipi Walter]

If you CHOOSE to hike in the GSMNP then you MUST obey the rules. If someone thinks they are special and the rules don't apply to them I hope they are caught and fined.

So much for backpackers sharing a common voice against the stupid rules.

[10-K]

So much for backpackers sharing a common voice against the stupid rules.

Walter you can think it's stupid. I can think it's stupid. It doesn't change anything.

I don't think I've ever seen one of your epic trip reports "Live from GSMNP" .... do you feel like the powers that be are on the way to Whigg Meadow or can you accept that this is strictly an issue within the National Park System?

[Tipi Walter]

Walter you can think it's stupid. I can think it's stupid. It doesn't change anything.

I don't think I've ever seen one of your epic trip reports "Live from GSMNP" .... do you feel like the powers that be are on the way to Whigg Meadow or can you accept that this is strictly an issue within the National Park System?

I would love to have a slew of trip reports from the GSMNP but for 15 years I backpacked with a fully loaded dog and dogs are verboten in the Park. National Parks have stricter rules than wilderness areas and stricter than Mt Rogers or Snowbirds or national forests, of course. But the AT is also a National Park so get ready, folks.

If it's an issue with the NP system, and humans run that system (so anything is possible), where will the Whiteblaze folks be who support the fees and reserved-site policy when and if the National Park system decides to change the AT and start charging each AT backpacker $5 per night with every camp reserved on the entire trail? Will they be on-board with that too? Will they gladly say you MUST OBEY THE RULES or hope the violators get caught and fined? Is this a website run by backpackers or by a homeowners association?

[Wise Old Owl]

Here in Pa I cannot think of a day where I have not seen someone blow thru a traffic light or leave a campfire unattended in a park... I am not going to be a badger, but guys you are arguing about the current American social problem that rules that are not enforced do not apply to each other.The psychology of that is as old as American values and the Whiskey Rebellion. When I am in the woods and see someone "breaking the rules" its far better and safer to ignore the issue. Just like you wouldn't chase after an old guy who just blew the traffic light. We all make mistakes, are you willing to put your life in jeopardy trying to tell someone off in the woods? Maybe you might do this in a nice way over something stupid. I am glad the Rangers are only there when ya need them - otherwise I want to be left alone...

There are rule signs everywhere ..... lets get out and hike....and be safe.

Oh and Maxpatch - Good Luck with that thought.... Obey...... 17699

[max patch]

You people don't seem to understand that a gazillion people go to that park. Those rules - that I hate - are there for a reason. If everyone that went to the park did their own thing the woods would be a f'ing cesspool. Reservations are a form of capacity control. Again, if you CHOOSE to go there then follow the rules. Or do as I do and hike elsewhere.

[10-K]

One things for sure... The cost of a 900 miler patch is going up.

[Tipi Walter]

You people don't seem to understand that a gazillion people go to that park. Those rules - that I hate - are there for a reason. If everyone that went to the park did their own thing the woods would be a f'ing cesspool. Reservations are a form of capacity control. Again, if you CHOOSE to go there then follow the rules. Or do as I do and hike elsewhere.

It's about human choice. The same people who decided to control backpacking and backpackers have made no corresponding decision to address the gazillion people who access the Park in automobiles. There are no car entrance fees or permits, nothing. Even dayhikers pay no fee. With unlimited car and motorcycle access, well, and with the worst air pollution in the country you wonder who's in charge and if they are bonobos drooling over a pile of walnuts.

[atmilkman]

It's about human choice. The same people who decided to control backpacking and backpackers have made no corresponding decision to address the gazillion people who access the Park in automobiles. There are no car entrance fees or permits, nothing. Even dayhikers pay no fee. With unlimited car and motorcycle access, well, and with the worst air pollution in the country you wonder who's in charge and if they are bonobos drooling over a pile of walnuts.
Even if they'd charge just a buck a car, what would that be about a $1,000,000.00 vs $4000.00 from the thru-hikers. It should have been a no-brainer. But in typical Federal fashion it was a no brain.

[Wise Old Owl]

You people don't seem to understand that a gazillion people go to that park. Those rules - that I hate - are there for a reason. If everyone that went to the park did their own thing the woods would be a f'ing cesspool. Reservations are a form of capacity control. Again, if you CHOOSE to go there then follow the rules. Or do as I do and hike elsewhere.

There ya go again "You People" actually MP you are preaching to us, and we are on the same page, and this is Internet. Everyone here understands this is CONTROL and are not stupid - this is about being able to find someone,in the backcountry making sure that they do the right thing etc. $20pp is not going to improve things. Your Fed tax dollars should be enough.

By limiting the number of people in the back country to a few regulated campsites to lower environmental impact, As usual the govt does this for the wrong reasons, to defray costs associated by running the park. Where you see the negative environmentally they are actually causing more damage... Other states move the campsites around on a regular basis switching off the site and hiding it letting nature take its course and opening a new place further down. That's how to properly limit the impact on the land - As a group we want more people to enjoy the resource as it really is unlimited.

Now that they have generated a lawsuit, it's going to cost them more to implement than it's worth.... shortsighted on their part.

Also - none of the fees is going to be used to clean up or maintain the service, so what is it really going to be used for? Rescue?

[max patch]

They CAN'T charge an entrance fee unless the Tennessee legislature removes the deed restriction from the hwy.

I never supported the $20 fee. All I've said is that the rules there serve a purpose and no one - even WB members - are above the law.

The government is stupid. I give them credit for figuring out that a thru hiker on Springer isn't gonna know that what exact dates they are gonna be in the park and that 15 thru hikers can't fit in a 8 person shelter and so they waive the everyones gotta be in a shelter rule. Thats pretty outside the box thinking for a f'ing bureaucrat.

[Nutbrown]

I'm doing a thru-hike with two of my kids so for me that's $60 dollars. And that is a big deal It's one more thing I have to figure out. Was already doing this on limited funds. It's been a dream for a long time just about got all the gear have had to cut corners on that already now got to figure out what else to do without. I guess it will be the sleeping bags and pads only thing left to buy. Oh well I guess I'll get the rest at Walmart.

A thru with 3 people is gonna cost $4000-$8000 (minimum). If $60. is gonna break the bank, maybe the dream can wait until the kids can help with the funds a bit?

[oldbear]

Even if they'd charge just a buck a car, what would that be about a $1,000,000.00 vs $4000.00 from the thru-hikers. It should have been a no-brainer. But in typical Federal fashion it was a no brain.
It's actually more than that
GSMNP gets about 7,000,000 visitors a year which makes it the most visited NP in the US
If we're being optomistic and saying that each vehicle has 4 ppl in it then at a buck a vehicle you're looking at $1,750,000.00
However average entrance fees for the most visited NPs is $20.00
So if you use that as your baseline number you wind up w/ $20.00 x 1,750,000 = $ 350,000,000 .00

[atmilkman]

It's actually more than that
GSMNP gets about 7,000,000 visitors a year which makes it the most visited NP in the US
If we're being optomistic and saying that each vehicle has 4 ppl in it then at a buck a vehicle you're looking at $1,750,000.00
However average entrance fees for the most visited NPs is $20.00
So if you use that as your baseline number you wind up w/ $20.00 x 1,750,000 = $ 350,000,000 .00
Excellent point. Someone in the "front office" should have said DUH!

[Wise Old Owl]

Wonder how many of those 7M actually get into the back country.

MP please explain - How is it that there are fees for going into Shenandoah NP, and Smokies NP Govt thing can't do something on a "state" Highway.... funded by Fed Dollars?

[oldbear]

oops
used too many zeros
The correct number is $ 35,000,000 .00

[atmilkman]

Wonder how many of those 7M get into the back country.
No doubt. I wonder how many get past the coke machine and souvenir shop.

[oldbear]

[QUOTE=Wise Old Owl;1346034]Wonder how many of those 7M actually get into the back country.


"In 2010, there were 33,000 backpackers and a total of 79,480 backcountry nights — meaning each of the 33,000 backpackers averaged 2.5 nights in the woods."
http://www.smokymountainnews.com/news/item/4784-backpackers-in-the-smokies-may-soon-pay-for-permits

[Wise Old Owl]

Do they sell White-blaze Patches for cyber-hikers in the Smokie Souvenir Shop? Gotta get one for mie pack:rolleyes:


Oh look ....there's a tree lets go over and hug it....this IS fun.


Thank's Old Bear for looking that up - That's $660,000 dollars that won't cover the upcoming lawsuit.This all appears to be unnecessary....

so what is the money to be really used for? (I found it)

The money is used to have Rangers on the trail to enforce the regulations - like keeping dogs off the trail, reducing animal encounters, and reduce complaints.

cus ya all a bunch of whiners....:rolleyes:(sarcastic)

[Tipi Walter]

A thru with 3 people is gonna cost $4000-$8000 (minimum). If $60. is gonna break the bank, maybe the dream can wait until the kids can help with the funds a bit?

Thruhikers are the least affected. Regular Park backpackers will pay the price both in cash and in trying to cope with the site reservation system. To repeat, how will a hiker on a 10 day trip know where she will be on Day 7? Impossible to figure.

[Wise Old Owl]

So curiosity - this "new" system is much like parking on the street - if I don't feed the meter, and the meter maid walks by - what is the fine? anyone know?

[atmilkman]

So curiosity - this "new" system is much like parking on the street - if I don't feed the meter, and the meter maid walks by - what is the fine? anyone know?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4yqbLHYbcI

[Wise Old Owl]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4yqbLHYbcI

As funny as that is ...Its true! They aught to do more of that....

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=93947&page=1#.UHGpA65UnXo

[coach lou]

[QUOTE=Wise Old Owl;1346016] Your Fed tax dollars should be enough. .


!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad :

And I don't want to hike in Somalia.

[MuddyWaters]

It's about human choice. The same people who decided to control backpacking and backpackers have made no corresponding decision to address the gazillion people who access the Park in automobiles. There are no car entrance fees or permits, nothing. Even dayhikers pay no fee. With unlimited car and motorcycle access, well, and with the worst air pollution in the country you wonder who's in charge and if they are bonobos drooling over a pile of walnuts.

And the motorcycles have a horrible impact. You can hear them several miles away from the roads they are on. They need to either be quieted down, or banned. i dont care if someone rides one, but the noise, ruins the park.

[Tipi Walter]

And the motorcycles have a horrible impact. You can hear them several miles away from the roads they are on. They need to either be quieted down, or banned. i dont care if someone rides one, but the noise, ruins the park.

A breath of fresh air. You don't know how many screeds I've written on this subject. Throttle envy, leathered-infants, Isle of Man wannabes etc etc. You name it I've tried to describe in varied words my displeasure with these unmuffled roaring machines on the roads surrounding my neck of the woods. Apparently no one gives a crap about the noise pollution except you and me.

[Odd Man Out]

I think someone asked exactly how they were going to collect the fee.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbWg-mozGsU

[moytoy]

A breath of fresh air. You don't know how many screeds I've written on this subject. Throttle envy, leathered-infants, Isle of Man wannabes etc etc. You name it I've tried to describe in varied words my displeasure with these unmuffled roaring machines on the roads surrounding my neck of the woods. Apparently no one gives a crap about the noise pollution except you and me.
add 1 more to that list....

[moytoy]

I think someone asked exactly how they were going to collect the fee.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbWg-mozGsU

That is funny! better carry a s#*t load of dimes!

[OzJacko]

..... is this a good time to say you can hike the whole of my local track for free....:p
But you can't take a dog.

[swjohnsey]

And the motorcycles have a horrible impact. You can hear them several miles away from the roads they are on. They need to either be quieted down, or banned. i dont care if someone rides one, but the noise, ruins the park.

Are Harleys motorcycles?

[Lone Wolf]

And the motorcycles have a horrible impact. You can hear them several miles away from the roads they are on. They need to either be quieted down, or banned. i dont care if someone rides one, but the noise, ruins the park.

ah. a small nuisance for a small amount of time. non-issue

[Rain Man]

Gonna cost 20$ to thru-hike the Smokies in 2013

I hate to break it to you, but it costs a LOT more than a piddlin' $20 to thru-hike the Smokies.

I'd gladly pay an EXTRA $20 just not to have to listen to all the whining, pitiful wailing, gnashing of teeth, and sniveling about $20 out of thousands.

Rain Man

.

[Nutbrown]

For a word in support of the horribly noisey bikes... the cars can hear the noise too, hopefully preventing them from running over the bikers. Some go overboard, but as a former rider, anything that will get the attention of those Sunday drivers is a benefit towards safety.

[Wise Old Owl]

Your Fed tax dollars should be enough.... .


!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad :

And I don't want to hike in Somalia.

I don't understand your post- The parks are safe, the crime is lo, and you hike with a big stick!:rolleyes:

[Skyline]

If so I only hope that every car entering the GSMNP pays a $20 entrance fee. Especially since it's the most air-polluted park in the country.


Yep, in Shenandoah NP there are entrance stations enroute to the Park road (Skyline Drive) where you pay a fee that gets you a week's worth of road usage--or an annual fee good for a whole year. Some of us have wondered for a long time why visitors to the Smokies don't pay a dime for the same thing. Part of the SNP fee stays with the local Park for its own projects; some of it supports the NPS' national budget.

In SNP, there is no fee for overnight usage of the backcountry, though to be legal you must fill out a free BC permit and keep your part with you. The road fee covers all non-commercial activity in the Park.

[Tipi Walter]

For a word in support of the horribly noisey bikes... the cars can hear the noise too, hopefully preventing them from running over the bikers. Some go overboard, but as a former rider, anything that will get the attention of those Sunday drivers is a benefit towards safety.

This seems to be the common excuse of bikers to justify their mostly unmufflered bikes. They seem to have a fixated fascination with either the guttural Harley roar or the screaming Japanese whine, both heard for 10 miles or more away. There is a decibel noise ordinance on the books but it's never enforced. Most car drivers nowadays cruise around with the windows rolled up tight so I doubt they can hear anything except the radio or their cellphones.

I could give a crap about this in the cities or in developed areas, it's only when they swarm en masse over "scenic routes" or "Nature Motor Loops" that I get steamed. Plus, they race. Fast. They think nothing about breaking the speed limits in their quest to fulfill some kind of wetdream Race fantasy. Here in my neck of the woods we have two hateful bike racetracks---one is the Tail of the Dragon's Anus and the other is the Cherohala Skyway. Both roads sandwich in the Smokies and the Citico and the Slickrock and the Brushy Ridge wilderness areas and of course Hiway 441 thru the Park. Thruhikers best bring earplugs if you want to backpack in the summer.

BTW, we had a Graham County NC rescue squad recently on Bob Bald and one of the rescue guys told me they cleaned up a bike wreck on the Skyway and measured the guy doing close to 150mph on that mountain road. But hey, these guys are professionals, right? They buy an Alpinestars race suit and think the roads belong to them.

[Tipi Walter]

Yep, in Shenandoah NP there are entrance stations enroute to the Park road (Skyline Drive) where you pay a fee that gets you a week's worth of road usage--or an annual fee good for a whole year. Some of us have wondered for a long time why visitors to the Smokies don't pay a dime for the same thing. Part of the SNP fee stays with the local Park for its own projects; some of it supports the NPS' national budget.

In SNP, there is no fee for overnight usage of the backcountry, though to be legal you must fill out a free BC permit and keep your part with you. The road fee covers all non-commercial activity in the Park.

Last time I thruhiked the Shenandoahs there was no permit and I could camp wherever I found a spot. Can you still camp wherever you want??

[coach lou]

I don't understand your post- The parks are safe, the crime is lo, and you hike with a big stick!:rolleyes:

I use 2 pointy sticks, but, I mean that you are correct...our tax dollars should be enough.... but all the money that we send overseas makes my head spin. I did something about 9 months ago that I had never done in my first 55 years.......I sent emails to my State senator and my congressman to complain about the insane amount of money we were sending to Somalia. I got no responce from my Senator[he didn't get any votes from the burbs!] and I got a song & a dance from my congressman. So, $20.00 bucks is $20.00 bucks, and I am one of those folks that pays my taxes, income, sales, property, very steep gasoline, all of them! So, 20 bucks is 20 bucks, and it don't come easy!

[max patch]

Last time I thruhiked the Shenandoahs there was no permit and I could camp wherever I found a spot. Can you still camp wherever you want??

No, but the SNP doesn't suck as much as the GSMNP. From the website:

9) No camping May Occur:

...within 10 yards of a stream or other natural water source. Protect streams and the fish in them from water quality deterioration due to erosion.

...within 50 yards of standing building ruins including stone foundations, chimneys, and log walls. The park has a rich history. Camping in the area of former homesites can damage these remnants of our past. Practice the Leave No Trace Principle of “Leave What You Find.”

...within 50 yards of another camping party or "no camping" post or sign. Preserve the solitude of others and respect areas that are closed to allow recovery from overuse

...within ¼ mile of a paved road, park boundary, or park facilities such as a campground, picnic area, visitor center, lodge, wayside, or restaurant. Backcountry camping requires that you get off the beaten path. If you do not want to travel the required distance, consider a front-country campground.

...within 100 yards of a hut, cabin, or day-use shelter. You may camp in a hut or cabin as described in this bulletin, or in a designated park-constructed campsites at Appalachian Trail huts.

[Tipi Walter]

No, but the SNP doesn't suck as much as the GSMNP. From the website:

9) No camping May Occur:

...within 10 yards of a stream or other natural water source. Protect streams and the fish in them from water quality deterioration due to erosion.

...within 50 yards of standing building ruins including stone foundations, chimneys, and log walls. The park has a rich history. Camping in the area of former homesites can damage these remnants of our past. Practice the Leave No Trace Principle of “Leave What You Find.”

...within 50 yards of another camping party or "no camping" post or sign. Preserve the solitude of others and respect areas that are closed to allow recovery from overuse

...within ¼ mile of a paved road, park boundary, or park facilities such as a campground, picnic area, visitor center, lodge, wayside, or restaurant. Backcountry camping requires that you get off the beaten path. If you do not want to travel the required distance, consider a front-country campground.

...within 100 yards of a hut, cabin, or day-use shelter. You may camp in a hut or cabin as described in this bulletin, or in a designated park-constructed campsites at Appalachian Trail huts.

Well thank god someone knows what they're doing up there. No reserved spots is a good thing, just follow the guidelines and then camp where the heck you want. The way it's supposed to be.

[Praha4]

I use 2 pointy sticks, but, I mean that you are correct...our tax dollars should be enough.... but all the money that we send overseas makes my head spin. I did something about 9 months ago that I had never done in my first 55 years.......I sent emails to my State senator and my congressman to complain about the insane amount of money we were sending to Somalia. I got no responce from my Senator[he didn't get any votes from the burbs!] and I got a song & a dance from my congressman. So, $20.00 bucks is $20.00 bucks, and I am one of those folks that pays my taxes, income, sales, property, very steep gasoline, all of them! So, 20 bucks is 20 bucks, and it don't come easy!

hey Lou, I agree with you! ...and congrats on your post on this topic not being deleted by WB. I made a very similar post a week ago here, and it was deleted by WB. Maybe it was deleted becuz I used the word "Afghanistan" in my post? Meanwhile, back at the ranch, I'll pay the $20 to thru hike GSMNP, if it keeps out the hiker trash riff raff. Soon the Smokies will be like the Whites, with the huts and shelters full of the Asheville yuppies with their North Face sweater shirts and Fedora hats, Columbia hiking boots, sipping their soy latte's and Starbucks Via coffee. Just think how the conversation will be cleaned up and improved at the Smokies' shelters. Keep out the riff raff and hiker trash that won't pay the $20..... why not make it $50, or $100? that would really clean up the AT in the park! I can't wait to go again!

[coach lou]

As I've said I've got no problem paying my share. We pay the $20.00 fee to get in Jellystone every year...for 7days. We pay the 12-15 dollars per nite at the campgrounds. Not a problem. I have not been to GSNP yet, but I have been reading this thread from folks that have lots of time there. I just disagree with chargeing this fee to the small group that uses the backcountry. It doesn't seem like good business for one thing, such a small group to try to get money from. Plus the fact that those in the backcountry would be the folks that need facilities the least. So what is this charge for? Mo' money, mo' money, mo' money.......I just don't have it........................anymore.

[Skyline]

Last time I thruhiked the Shenandoahs there was no permit and I could camp wherever I found a spot. Can you still camp wherever you want??

What year did you hike? There has been a required FREE backcountry permit for a long time.

You can camp almost anywhere. There are no assigned campsites in SNP's backcountry. You do have to observe certain rules such as a few no-camping zones, no camping within X feet from strsams or roads or buildings, etc.

[Skyline]

As I've said I've got no problem paying my share. We pay the $20.00 fee to get in Jellystone every year...for 7days. We pay the 12-15 dollars per nite at the campgrounds. Not a problem. I have not been to GSNP yet, but I have been reading this thread from folks that have lots of time there. I just disagree with chargeing this fee to the small group that uses the backcountry. It doesn't seem like good business for one thing, such a small group to try to get money from. Plus the fact that those in the backcountry would be the folks that need facilities the least. So what is this charge for? Mo' money, mo' money, mo' money.......I just don't have it........................anymore.

$20 gets you into a Jellystone Park for seven days? Yogi and Boo Boo must be starving! :eek:

[Tipi Walter]

What year did you hike? There has been a required FREE backcountry permit for a long time.

You can camp almost anywhere. There are no assigned campsites in SNP's backcountry. You do have to observe certain rules such as a few no-camping zones, no camping within X feet from strsams or roads or buildings, etc.

The first time I did it was in the summer of 1984. The last time was in the winter of '87. I think winter is the best time as traffic stops to a crawl and heck I think they even closed the road then, at least all the shops were closed, thank god.

[swjohnsey]

For a word in support of the horribly noisey bikes... the cars can hear the noise too, hopefully preventing them from running over the bikers. Some go overboard, but as a former rider, anything that will get the attention of those Sunday drivers is a benefit towards safety.

"Loud pipes save lives" is a load of crap. I have a few hundred thousand miles on motorcycles.

[LDog]

17727

I don' wanna pickle ...

[oldbear]

I think that for winter hikers the sound of snowmobiles is much worse than the sound of unmuffled motorcycles

[Doctari]

Saw this coming a few years ago. Plus the new $4.00 a night fee for "regular" back country camping.
The only problem I have is: a few years ago I was going to do a week long trip that required staying at 3 "Reservation ONLY!" sites in GSMNP, I started calling 30 days in advance cause you can't make reservations before that time,,,,, no answer the first day after about 10 attempts. Day 2; 14 attempts. then: 20, 30, 40 etc. The last week, every time I got a spare moment at work, I even called the information desk in the visitor's center (about 15' down the hall from the reservations office!) & had them ask around, to no avail. I even tried calling while in route,,,, ended up staying in those areas anyway.
Granted, the article on the $4.00 fee says they will extend hours & bla bla bla. But, , , , Oh well, I'll make A (as in ONE) attempt, busy signal, I'll call back. No answer, I'm going hiking! They want my money, they can answer the d*** phone!

[Feral Bill]

I think that for winter hikers the sound of snowmobiles is much worse than the sound of unmuffled motorcycles Thankfully, newer snow machines are infinitely quieter than those of 30-40 years ago. The appeal of them still eludes me.

[starbright]

My thru-hike has been posponed before due to accidents. As for my children one is old enough to help and is helping as much as possible. But this maybe my last chance for a thru-hike I was told last year that I have spinal tumors and a 30% chance of being able to walk after surgery. So for me this is my chance to make a dream come true while I can still walk. I may not complete it but I'm damn sure going to try. And intend to do it on less than $1000.00 after gear which I have most of. If you have so much money to spend more to ya I don't. But that should'nt mean that don't have the right to do it or should have to put it off until they open it up to wheelchairs.

[oldbear]

Starbright
This site is frequented by good people who want you and other hikers such as I to succeed.
Whatever criticism that you may be getting because of the $1000.00 after initial expenses is based on the fact that you can't successfully thru hike the AT w/ that small amount of money ...and you need to understand that

[rambunny]

If i had it, i would pay $100 to hike the AT through the Smokies. It was a glorious experience all 3 times.i had a friend from 2000 that was a ridgerunner there in 2001-volunteer-that packed out an encredible amount of trash.If my fee makes sure someone is at least given something for that ok.The AT is not a free thing monetarily, perhaps the Park Service could figure out a work for stay situation for those AT hikers needing it.

[starbright]

Starbright
This site is frequented by good people who want you and other hikers such as I to succeed.
Whatever criticism that you may be getting because of the $1000.00 after initial expenses is based on the fact that you can't successfully thru hike the AT w/ that small amount of money ...and you need to understand that

I know it can be done. I once traveled across 26 states for 2 months with 3 kids and a dog on $87.00 a week and that was for food, gas, and camping fees so I know I can do this.

[starbright]

I know it can be done. I once traveled across 26 states for 2 months with 3 kids and a dog on $87.00 a week and that was for food, gas, and camping fees so I know I can do this.

That was with driving a Chevy Suburban at 9 miles to a gallon.

[Tipi Walter]

Thankfully, newer snow machines are infinitely quieter than those of 30-40 years ago. The appeal of them still eludes me.

It's the appeal of gas addiction and throttle envy. It's in the same category as the bonobo fascination with ATV's. Lard butted Americans find it very difficult to just walk on two legs, whether on snowshoes or in boots.

[swjohnsey]

That was with driving a Chevy Suburban at 9 miles to a gallon.

But gas was $0.30/gallon.

[Feral Bill]

It's the appeal of gas addiction and throttle envy. It's in the same category as the bonobo fascination with ATV's. Lard butted Americans find it very difficult to just walk on two legs, whether on snowshoes or in boots. Don't badmouth bonobos. They love everybody.

[starbright]

But gas was $0.30/gallon.


$2.68 a gallon in lower states and $2.89 a gallon in Northern states.

[John B]

I know it can be done. I once traveled across 26 states for 2 months with 3 kids and a dog on $87.00 a week and that was for food, gas, and camping fees so I know I can do this.

With all due respect, if you can thruhike the AT on less than $1,000 -- and I don't mean begging or mouching the entire way, I mean all costs of food, lodging, fuel, and typical incidentals, except for one-night work-for-stays at listed hostels when you can get them, are borne by you -- and do it for less than $1k, then I will personally reimburse you for the $1k you spend. I'm one of the fortunate ones with tons of money, and if someone in your condition can do a legit thru on $1k, then I don't mind paying that amount to see it done.

If you want to give it a go, PM me and we can work out the details -- Trailjournal so everyone can follow your journey, etc.

For that matter, even if you just make it to the Smokies, I'll send you a check for $100 ($20 X 5 nights to cover the yet to be imposed hiking fees).

How 'bout those apples?

["Atlas"]

I just came through the Smokies. $5 a night is not to bad, if you consider that they just revamped all the shelters within the park. That takes money. In all honesty, we as hikers really are given a great chance to hike through wonderful lands at little to no cost. To go camping here in my area you have to pay $20 a night for a city park tent site.

[Tipi Walter]

I just came through the Smokies. $5 a night is not to bad, if you consider that they just revamped all the shelters within the park. That takes money. In all honesty, we as hikers really are given a great chance to hike through wonderful lands at little to no cost. To go camping here in my area you have to pay $20 a night for a city park tent site.

It's not just the fee, it's the nightly reservation at each backcountry site which is impossible to figure on a long trip. Creeks rise, snow piles up, you may get sick and zero out a day in your tent---the reservation system doesn't allow for these changes. It's unworkable. Plus, revamping the shelters means nothing to me since they are Ratboxes and avoided. The wonderful lands we hike thru are public lands, wilderness areas, national forests, parks---American citizens on foot should not to have to pay a dime to access their own land.

[moytoy]

TW> ....fight the good fight.....
We've been conditioned to believe we must pay society to exist.

[Pedaling Fool]

I just came through the Smokies. $5 a night is not to bad, if you consider that they just revamped all the shelters within the park. That takes money. In all honesty, we as hikers really are given a great chance to hike through wonderful lands at little to no cost. To go camping here in my area you have to pay $20 a night for a city park tent site.It's already been said and proved that the money will not go towards maintenance/upkeep of the trail/environment; the money is intended only to pay for the rangers that the park is hiring to monitor the trails. The bulk of trail/shelter maintenance is done by the local club, not the park.

[ChinMusic]

This thread is nine pages and I am too lazy to read the whole thing.

What are the logistics for paying this fee? Is there a link to pay ahead of time? Will there be something in Fontana?

[moytoy]

This thread is nine pages and I am too lazy to read the whole thing.

What are the logistics for paying this fee? Is there a link to pay ahead of time? Will there be something in Fontana?
As far as I can tell no details have been announced. I've been watching the Park website for the info.

[ChinMusic]

As far as I can tell no details have been announced. I've been watching the Park website for the info.

Thanks. I did a search on the net and came up with nothing. They better get on it pretty soon. The early thrus will be hitting the Smokies in under 3 months.

[moytoy]

Thanks. I did a search on the net and came up with nothing. They better get on it pretty soon. The early thrus will be hitting the Smokies in under 3 months.
Thats what I've been thinking. I'm still not sure this thing is a done deal! They were working on the software to run the reservation system 6 months ago, at least that's what was reported. I sent an e-mail to the park service 4 weeks ago asking for an update and have not had a reply.

[Pedaling Fool]

I've been waiting also about the long-distance (thru-hiker) issue. I'm wondering if they've kind of forgotten about it.

[Prime Time]

I don't object in theory. But the fact is the with privies outlawed in Smoky Mt. National Park, it's the worst camping conditions and the only place where you are required to camp near the shelters. One journal I read stated that a couple was ordered by the ranger to pitch their tent ON a pile of (thankfully composted) horse manure. When it poured that night, their tent was not only in the lowest spot in the area, all that manure got onto their tent wet! One of the reasons I'm hammocking. That an it's darned hard to find a flat camping spot in the Whites.
It's also hard to find 2 trees 12 feet apart without any trees between them. Good luck!

[Airman]

Not so. The air pollution in the park has drastically improved in the last ten years b/c of reduced pollution from power plants.

[Sly]

I don't object in theory. But the fact is the with privies outlawed in Smoky Mt. National Park....

When is the last time you hiked through the Smokys?

Spence Field, Double Spring Gap, Mount Collins, Ice Water Springs, Peck's Corner, Tri-Corner Knob, and Cosby Knob all have privies.

[Sly]

It's not just the fee, it's the nightly reservation at each backcountry site which is impossible to figure on a long trip. Creeks rise, snow piles up, you may get sick and zero out a day in your tent---the reservation system doesn't allow for these changes. It's unworkable. Plus, revamping the shelters means nothing to me since they are Ratboxes and avoided. The wonderful lands we hike thru are public lands, wilderness areas, national forests, parks---American citizens on foot should not to have to pay a dime to access their own land.

Tipi, sometimes you sound like a drama queen. Your first words "it's not just the fee", your last "should not have to pay a dime."

If you have so many days to hike it's quite easy to figure a itinerary. I'm sure the Park doesn't have a zero tolerance policy. If the creeks rise, the snow piles up or you get sick, you'll be able to adjust you schedule accordingly. You don't want to stay in a shelter? Stay off the AT, there's 800 miles of other trails you can hike in the park.

[Mags]

Thanks. I did a search on the net and came up with nothing. They better get on it pretty soon. The early thrus will be hitting the Smokies in under 3 months.

Over here for the background:

http://www.nps.gov/grsm/parkmgmt/upload/BC-Reservation-Restructuring-Proposal.pdf


Over here for the "nuts and bolts" part:
http://www.nps.gov/grsm/parkmgmt/bc-reservation-permit-faq.htm

[ChinMusic]

13. What is the timeframe for implementing the fee and new reservation/permitting system?
It is anticipated the online reservation and permitting system will be available to the public within the first few months of 2013. The fee will be implemented at that time.


I called em up since there was nothing definitive on Mags link. A very nice lady says, "They are working on it" but no details of the logistics have been settled on. She anticipated a solution within the next couple weeks if not sooner.

So, the "official" state of affairs as of this minute is...........they don't know yet how they are going to do it.

[Cherokee Bill]

Maybe this is the door to charging every AT backpacker $5 per night from Georgia to Maine.

Tolls every "X" miles will be next!

[Tipi Walter]

Tipi, sometimes you sound like a drama queen. Your first words "it's not just the fee", your last "should not have to pay a dime."

If you have so many days to hike it's quite easy to figure a itinerary. I'm sure the Park doesn't have a zero tolerance policy. If the creeks rise, the snow piles up or you get sick, you'll be able to adjust you schedule accordingly. You don't want to stay in a shelter? Stay off the AT, there's 800 miles of other trails you can hike in the park.

How do you know I can deviate from my reserved site itinerary and not be cited? You say I'll be able to adjust my schedule accordingly. I don't see anything in the regs to justify this comment. It's a moot point anyway since a person can only get a permit for 7 days total (good luck on knowing where you'll be on Day 5 or Day 6), and then has to reapply for the next 7 days. Imagine a 21 day trip and figure you'll be making 3 separate 7-day reservations with the required fees, etc. Unworkable. People will say, "But who the heck goes out on a 21 day trip?" It's called retirement. AT types pull four months no problemo, what's a measly 21 days?


Tolls every "X" miles will be next!

Since the AT is in a National Park, maybe the gung-ho Park fee lovers will also love the idea of charging AT section and thru hikers $5 per night. And then go a step further---every campsite must be reserved in advance. Impossible with 2,000 miles of trail? They'll figure out a way.

[FarmerChef]

I'll be the first to say that I don't know how to solve the funding problem for the national parks. From everything I've heard and the various news stories I've seen it would seem that our NPS is grossly underfunded for the burdens placed on it. I'm happy to pay to enter each and every park though I do it with my national park annual pass. I figure it's my way of supporting the park. I'd even pay more if they asked. That said, for what I nominally pay (around $20 bucks per person per year through the park pass) or, now, even $20 to hike through the Smokies it's still way cheaper and way better than spending that same $20 per person to go see a flick at the local theater.

That said, I too tend to balk when "new" fees are imposed on me so I feel the pain of having yet another expense added to the budget for hiking the AT. And as another has posted, I have to pay for 6 so it's not a small amount for me, especially when my park pass won't cover this use. I'm not going to argue if this is an effective use of my money or the best way to recoup funds for the park. But would someone please tell me why they don't institute entrance fees like SNP? Are there too many entrances into the park to make it feasible? I don't understand. Just my curiosity here.

[Tipi Walter]

But would someone please tell me why they don't institute entrance fees like SNP? Are there too many entrances into the park to make it feasible? I don't understand. Just my curiosity here.

This is a question that never gets answered. I'd love to see each car pay $20 to enter the Smokies but for some reason the head honchos have a love affair with the automobile and won't consider it. In fact, they encourage traffic thru the Park and apparently drool over the thought of bumper to bumper traffic on the Cades Cove motor loop. Cars and motorcycles have free unlimited access to the Park and yet the Park has the worst air pollution in the country. It's very weird. A two year old with a lego set could figure this out and fix it but we're stuck with the guys in charge.

[max patch]

But would someone please tell me why they don't institute entrance fees like SNP? Are there too many entrances into the park to make it feasible? I don't understand. Just my curiosity here.

They can't.

When TN gave the road to the government they put in the deed that no toll or fee would ever be charged to travel the road.

The TN legislature would have to vote to remove this deed restriction before an entrance fee could be charged.

[max patch]

This is a question that never gets answered.

I answer it everytime I see the question raised. I guess a lot of WBers have me on ignore.

[Tipi Walter]

I answer it everytime I see the question raised. I guess a lot of WBers have me on ignore.

Point is, it's never answered by the Park wonks and Park honchos.

[Tipi Walter]

They can't.

When TN gave the road to the government they put in the deed that no toll or fee would ever be charged to travel the road.

The TN legislature would have to vote to remove this deed restriction before an entrance fee could be charged.

Is the TN legislature in a coma? Some will probably say Yes, they are. But if all it takes is the TN legislature to change the fee arrangement, well then the problem can be solved. Change the deed. Real simple.

[max patch]

Point is, it's never answered by the Park wonks and Park honchos.

I guess they don't hang out at WB. They answer this very question on the GSMNP website.

[max patch]

Is the TN legislature in a coma? Some will probably say Yes, they are. But if all it takes is the TN legislature to change the fee arrangement, well then the problem can be solved. Change the deed. Real simple.

They don't want to change the arrangement. That's why its there in the first place.

[Ewker]

They can't.

When TN gave the road to the government they put in the deed that no toll or fee would ever be charged to travel the road.

The TN legislature would have to vote to remove this deed restriction before an entrance fee could be charged.


are you talking about the road through the park or the road to Cades Cove? Tn can't charge for the road through the park but IMO they can charge for a trip to Cades Cove

[FarmerChef]

They can't.

When TN gave the road to the government they put in the deed that no toll or fee would ever be charged to travel the road.

The TN legislature would have to vote to remove this deed restriction before an entrance fee could be charged.

Ah ok. Thanks!

[double d]

I love the NPS (for the most part), but it is true that some parks charge $20 to enter per week (such as RMNP in Colorado), while others do not charge at all. I think Tipi is correct, how can one justify a fee to our state and national government when their own policies are different from one park to the next? Certainly the NPS is under-staffed and over-worked, but some of the fees they charge are growing by the year (such as camping fees at various national parks).