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Hotel
10-16-2012, 09:05
I am hiking Springer to NC starting this weekend and was wondering if bear bells are effective. I have a hunter orange pack cover to notify the hunters that I am not a bear or deer or any other animal they like to shoot. I would prefer to hike in relative solitude without a bell sounding constantly, but also don't want to be careless.

Thoughts?

BradMT
10-16-2012, 09:19
Bear bells are unnecessary for bears, that's for sure, and I wouldn't bother with anything besides a bit of blaze for the hunters.

Lone Wolf
10-16-2012, 09:29
I am hiking Springer to NC starting this weekend and was wondering if bear bells are effective. I have a hunter orange pack cover to notify the hunters that I am not a bear or deer or any other animal they like to shoot. I would prefer to hike in relative solitude without a bell sounding constantly, but also don't want to be careless.

Thoughts?
totally useless

Creek Dancer
10-16-2012, 09:40
I don't bother with bear bells, but if I see evidence of bear scat in the area and I am hiking alone, occassionally I will yell out "yo bear" just to let them know I am in their woods. I don't want to surprise some huge sow and her babies that are just around the bend. This might be a uselss tactic too. I really don't know. But it makes me feel better.

88BlueGT
10-16-2012, 09:52
I don't know if bear bells are effective or not but like you said... I'm sure they will become VERY annoying, after about a hundred feet or so! I'd stick to the 'yell out' method.

tdoczi
10-16-2012, 09:55
I don't bother with bear bells, but if I see evidence of bear scat in the area and I am hiking alone, occassionally I will yell out "yo bear" just to let them know I am in their woods. I don't want to surprise some huge sow and her babies that are just around the bend. This might be a uselss tactic too. I really don't know. But it makes me feel better.

ive done it. the babies will run up a nearby tree and the mom will go hide in the woods and watch to see what happens. that black bear moms will use hostility to defend their cubs is just another bear un-truth thats been spread far too much.

now, grizzlies are a different story, but last i checked there werent any in GA or NC.

Sarcasm the elf
10-16-2012, 10:05
The only bear species that is found on the A.T. Is the black bear, which are a medium sized bear that is generally scared of humans, though they will try to swipe unattended food on occasion.. If you are worried about them, click on this link and do some reading about the facts and misconceptions about black bears.

http://www.bear.org/website/

When you think of the classic bear attack story, you are thinking of grizzly, bears, the much larger much more fearsome bear species that inhabits the western part of the continent. To my knowledge there are no grizzlies east of the Mississippi river.

Also, all those stories of people being attacked by a mother bear protecting her cubs involve grizzly bears. I don't know of a single documented case of a female black bear aggressively going after a human simply for being near her cubs.

HikerMom58
10-16-2012, 10:09
Hotel... are you trying to avoid encounters of the wrong kind with bears as well as hunters? OR are you suggesting the use of bear bells and wearing orange to alert, just the hunters .... it's confusing. :0)
Personally, I don't think that wearing bells for the hunter's sake is neccessary but I've never hunted so I wouldn't know for sure.

Slo-go'en
10-16-2012, 10:20
One rarely sees bears while hiking along the trail on the AT. You make enough noise just tromping along that they hear (or smell) you coming. The ones you have to worry about are the ones which come vist the camp sites looking to steal your food at night.

Pathfinder1
10-16-2012, 10:29
Hi...


Bear bells = not effective.

Bear spray = very effective.

Creek Dancer
10-16-2012, 10:30
The most bears I have seen on a single trip on the AT was in Shenandoah National Park. I saw three one day, and two the next. The two babies scampered up the tree, and the mother ran toward them. The other adult bears were hardly afraid of me. They didn't move upon noticing me and I made sure they knew I was there. I felt very fortunate to see them, and honestly, I wasn't really afraid. I thought they were beautiful, albeit rather smelly. I just gave them plenty of room and time to move along off the trail and then I went by.


The idea that a mother bear would act aggresively toward humans if they get close to her babies is not farfetched. A mother protecting her babies is natural, both with humans and animals.

Pathfinder1
10-16-2012, 10:34
Hi...


PS: Just make sure that any bear spray that you carry is DEC registered...and is NOT beyond its 'use by' date.

oldbear
10-16-2012, 10:35
I sing when I hike for a couple of reasons
* Although I love to sing ; I'm a really bad singer that avoids singing in public unless of course I'm reasonably well intoxicated
* I use singing to tell me if I'm hiking too fast ; If I can't sing and hike at the same time then I'm hiking too fast
* Singing allows whatever critters that need to be warned of my presence more than adequate time to avoid me

gizzy bear
10-16-2012, 10:38
[QUOTE=Sarcasm the elf;1349416]The only bear species that is found on the A.T. Is the black bear, which are a medium sized bear that is generally scared of humans, though they will try to swipe unattended food on occasion.. If you are worried about them, click on this link and do some reading about the facts and misconceptions about black bears.

http://www.bear.org/website/


thanks for the website...it is very good :) that being said...i still do NOT wanna come face to face with a bear...even a friendly bear...because NONE of them look friendly to me ... i don't know why they freak me out so much?!? snakes don't bother me... although i am not gonna pet a wild one...moose don't bother me... as long as they are chasing me ;) and pretty much all the other creatures don't bother me...well except spiders and alligators... i don't like them either!!! but other than those 3...i am good :)

gizzy bear
10-16-2012, 10:40
moose don't bother me... as long as they are chasing me ;) and pretty much all the other creatures don't bother me...well except spiders and alligators... i don't like them either!!! but other than those 3...i am good :)

clearly that should read as long as the moose is NOT chasing me...jeesh :/

tdoczi
10-16-2012, 10:42
The most bears I have seen on a single trip on the AT was in Shenandoah National Park. I saw three one day, and two the next. The two babies scampered up the tree, and the mother ran toward them. The other adult bears were hardly afraid of me. They didn't move upon noticing me and I made sure they knew I was there. I felt very fortunate to see them, and honestly, I wasn't really afraid. I thought they were beautiful, albeit rather smelly. I just gave them plenty of room and time to move along off the trail and then I went by.


The idea that a mother bear would act aggresively toward humans if they get close to her babies is not farfetched. A mother protecting her babies is natural, both with humans and animals.

so, you yourself have experienced what a black bear mom does when she spots a human with her cubs and you still choose to believe urban legend instead of your own 2 eyes? fascinating stuff. that said, would i walk up to a black bear cub and actually touch it or do anything nutty like that? no, for various reasons. but this idea that youre going to "surprise" a sow with cubs as your out hiking and shes going to attack you is utter nonsense.

Creek Dancer
10-16-2012, 10:53
so, you yourself have experienced what a black bear mom does when she spots a human with her cubs and you still choose to believe urban legend instead of your own 2 eyes? fascinating stuff. that said, would i walk up to a black bear cub and actually touch it or do anything nutty like that? no, for various reasons. but this idea that youre going to "surprise" a sow with cubs as your out hiking and shes going to attack you is utter nonsense.

Reread my post. Where did I say that a mother would attack me because I surprised her? Nowhere. Reading is fundamental. Facinating stuff. You should try it. So before telling me I am talking nonsense, make sure you understand what I wrote.

I don't want to suprise her because I respect her place in the woods. I also don't want to be surprised coming around a bend in the trail. That is why I yell out occassionally if there is good reason to think bears are nearby.

Again, the idea that a mother animal would protect her young is not farfetched.

tdoczi
10-16-2012, 10:58
Reread my post. Where did I say that a mother would attack me because I surprised her? Nowhere. Reading is fundamental. Facinating stuff. You should try it. So before telling me I am talking nonsense, make sure you understand what I wrote.

I don't want to suprise her because I respect her place in the woods. I also don't want to be surprised coming around a bend in the trail. That is why I yell out occassionally if there is good reason to think bears are nearby.

Again, the idea that a mother animal would protect her young is not farfetched.


so, if you are innocently walking in the woods quietly and not making noise and you surprise said black bear sow and cubs, what exactly do you think might happen?

Hotel
10-16-2012, 10:58
Thanks for all the passionate replies. I will leave the bells at home and enjoy the hike that much more.:)

HikerMom58
10-16-2012, 10:59
Atta girl Creek Dancer.

I think these comments are getting off the subject of what the OP was asking ... just sayin....

Lone Wolf
10-16-2012, 11:01
so, if you are innocently walking in the woods quietly and not making noise and you surprise said black bear sow and cubs, what exactly do you think might happen?

i did exactly that trail running one time. mama sprinted off one way, cub went the other

tdoczi
10-16-2012, 11:02
i did exactly that trail running one time. mama sprinted off one way, cub went the other

and thats all that will ever happen.

tdoczi
10-16-2012, 11:03
Atta girl Creek Dancer.

I think these comments are getting off the subject of what the OP was asking ... just sayin....

since the alleged rationale for wearing bear bells is to not surprise a bear, its not off subject at all to discuss what may or may not happen if you were to surprise a bear.

Creek Dancer
10-16-2012, 11:05
Atta girl Creek Dancer.

I think these comments are getting off the subject of what the OP was asking ... just sayin....

This isn't a straight forward thread.

Creek Dancer
10-16-2012, 11:07
so, if you are innocently walking in the woods quietly and not making noise and you surprise said black bear sow and cubs, what exactly do you think might happen?

In my experience, the bears would run off.

HikerMom58
10-16-2012, 11:15
since the alleged rationale for wearing bear bells is to not surprise a bear, its not off subject at all to discuss what may or may not happen if you were to surprise a bear.

Ok.. so Hotel is the only one who can "clear up" the OP as 2 what he was asking....

Also, LW and you are not WRONG about normal bear behavior when it comes to surprise and protecting their babies etc... BUT Creek Dancer is not WRONG in her thinking about bear behavior either. Since when can humans ever predict wild animal behavior 100% of the time? You can find plenty of people saying that surprising a bear MAY result in unwanted attention from that bear. Period. The chances of unwanted behavior goes up when it comes to protecting their young. I would think that the mother bear would give out plenty of warning signs before attacking but who knows... How hard would it be to state your opinion without telling someone else their understanding on any given subject is crap?

88BlueGT
10-16-2012, 11:19
I have been backpacking in NJ/PA for almost 8 years now and I have NEVER seen a bear! I'm actually upset about that...

gizzy bear
10-16-2012, 11:20
Thanks for all the passionate replies. I will leave the bells at home and enjoy the hike that much more.:)


happy hiking ! :)

tdoczi
10-16-2012, 11:31
In my experience, the bears would run off.


agreed. so what exactly are you trying to say when you say "I don't want to surprise some huge sow and her babies that are just around the bend." you later backpedal and explain that you wouldnt want to surprise a bear out of respect for being in its environment, fine and good. but isnt that true of all bears then? it would seem so, but you point out sow and cubs as if they are something to be especially careful of or extra attentive or considerate of. they are not.

tdoczi
10-16-2012, 11:32
Ok.. so Hotel is the only one who can "clear up" the OP as 2 what he was asking....

Also, LW and you are not WRONG about normal bear behavior when it comes to surprise and protecting their babies etc... BUT Creek Dancer is not WRONG in her thinking about bear behavior either.

anything you read thats a serious study of black bear behavior would beg to differ.

Creek Dancer
10-16-2012, 11:49
agreed. so what exactly are you trying to say when you say "I don't want to surprise some huge sow and her babies that are just around the bend." you later backpedal and explain that you wouldnt want to surprise a bear out of respect for being in its environment, fine and good. but isnt that true of all bears then? it would seem so, but you point out sow and cubs as if they are something to be especially careful of or extra attentive or considerate of. they are not.

I didn't backpedal about anything. And in saying so, you aren't interested in talking about this subject. You are only interested in picking apart my post and assuming my intent.

So take a hike, my friend.

HikerMom58
10-16-2012, 11:50
happy hiking ! :)

Agree!!


anything you read thats a serious study of black bear behavior would beg to differ.

Touche' It's all good. I will agree to disagree.

peakbagger
10-16-2012, 11:53
I carry a ACR whistle (very loud used by sailors) clipped onto my pack strap when doing AT boundary maintenance as I have quite a few bears that frequent my section. Usually a quick toot lets them know that I am not a prey or predator. Most of the time when I encouter a bear, I see there rear end as they sprint away.

tdoczi
10-16-2012, 12:14
I didn't backpedal about anything. And in saying so, you aren't interested in talking about this subject. You are only interested in picking apart my post and assuming my intent.

So take a hike, my friend.

i'm interested in not seeing incorrect information continue to be spread. believe and behave how you want, when you state or even imply something that is simply not true i am not going to ignore it.

theres nothing to discuss, whether you agree or not, whether its what you intended to say or not, the idea that a black bear sow and cubs is something to be especially careful or attentive to or afraid of is not accurate. i have evidence on my side. those who would disagree having nothing but fear, legend and hearsay.

tdoczi
10-16-2012, 12:16
Agree!!



Touche' It's all good. I will agree to disagree.

fine, but be aware its not just me you are disagreeing with, youre telling people who study black bears for a living that they are wrong.

HikerMom58
10-16-2012, 12:57
fine, but be aware its not just me you are disagreeing with, youre telling people who study black bears for a living that they are wrong.

I'm not saying that anything you are saying is wrong... but it's the "absolute truth" piece that I have to agree to disagree with... and I'm not alone. I'm sure that people that have "put it out there" as to suggest not surprising a bear are being cautious as well. If you do have more of a natural fear of bear, you will error on the side of caution. It's no biggie. I believe this convo is more about one's ability to empathize and accept others feelings more than anything else.
You could tell Peakbagger to leave his whistle at home- it's an overkill or not needed at all. Is that important to you to share with Peakbagger? Have you have determined that you have perfect knowledge & experience on your side to suggest this to him? So I'm trying to understand something about you. You must understand I'm not picking on you & I mean you no harm... just trying to understand.

tdoczi
10-16-2012, 13:09
I'm not saying that anything you are saying is wrong... but it's the "absolute truth" piece that I have to agree to disagree with... and I'm not alone. I'm sure that people that have "put it out there" as to suggest not surprising a bear are being cautious as well. If you do have more of a natural fear of bear, you will error on the side of caution. It's no biggie. I believe this convo is more about one's ability to empathize and accept others feelings more than anything else.
You could tell Peakbagger to leave his whistle at home- it's an overkill or not needed at all. Is that important to you to share with Peakbagger? Have you have determined that you have perfect knowledge & experience on your side to suggest this to him? So I'm trying to understand something about you. You must understand I'm not picking on you & I mean you no harm... just trying to understand.

as i said to creekdancer, i have no problems with anyone acting however they feel is best for them, but i object to the deliberate or unintentional spreading of misinformation. whether it was intended or not CD's statement could easily be read as "black bear sows with cubs are dangerous" and this a demonstrably false idea.

and as an aside, i disagree with the idea that we should indulge in our fears rather than conquer them. should people who are so afraid of the outdoors just never go outside if thats what makes them more comfortable? i doubt youd agree with that. irrational fear of bears causing you to take unnecessary steps to make yourself feel better around them is the same idea shrunken down in size. i make the same argument to anyone who advocates the use of bear spray in areas known to only have black bears.

i have no issue with the whistle because trying to scare off a black bear when you see it is precisely what you are supposed to do. its not a method i would bother employing, but its a sound idea.

gizzy bear
10-16-2012, 13:21
i just read this...found it quite helpful... outdoorsmen should be on the look out for fresh bear "activity" and be able to tell the difference between black bear and grizzly bear feces...black bear feces are smaller and contains alot of berries and squirell fur...grizzly bear crap has bells in it and smells like pepper... nuff said :)

slow mind
10-16-2012, 13:37
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PExlT-5VU-Y

Dr. Tom Smith is one of the foremost experts on Bears and bear behavior in the world. In this clip he speaks about black bears briefly but his message about certain populations of black bears is crystal clear. Who would I be to say he is wrong?
My own experience....I spent the summer on Lk Superior in 2011 and watched a helicopter rescue a woman who was nearly killed by a BLACK bear in Pukaskwa Prov. Park.

tdoczi
10-16-2012, 13:40
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PExlT-5VU-Y

Dr. Tom Smith is one of the foremost experts on Bears and bear behavior in the world. In this clip he speaks about black bears briefly but his message about certain populations of black bears is crystal clear. Who would I be to say he is wrong?
My own experience....I spent the summer on Lk Superior in 2011 and watched a helicopter rescue a woman who was nearly killed by a BLACK bear in Pukaskwa Prov. Park.

at what time is the mention youre speaking of? i sadly dont have an hour and 17 minutes to watch this all now.

so, was this woman attacked by a mother defending her cubs from a human then?

slow mind
10-16-2012, 13:43
I will also say that the bears along the AT and in other areas with such frequent encounters with humans are hardly what should be considered "wild" so their behavior is likley much much more docile.

slow mind
10-16-2012, 13:46
I'll look for the time.
the first 15 min. contain the most important message though.

RCBear
10-16-2012, 13:53
sorry pathfinder, but "VERY" effective bear spray use relies on many variables that can be VERY out of our control including wind movement, the fact that most, if not all, people that carry it will have never used it before, etc. That said, since carrying a handgun in a caliber large enough and heavy enough is realistically not very practical for long distance backpacking, carrying spray is your next best defense on top of education regarding bear behavior.

RCBear
10-16-2012, 14:00
and thats all that will ever happen.


tdoczi, let's be honest; that is an irresponsible claim. it may be what can be expected to happen, but to believe that you can account for all variables is utter nonsense and speaks to the fact that you are showing great arrogance in your supposition.

slow mind
10-16-2012, 14:07
Black bear mention in Tom's video is at 7:35 and is quite clear
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PExlT-5VU-Y

tdoczi
10-16-2012, 14:13
tdoczi, let's be honest; that is an irresponsible claim. it may be what can be expected to happen, but to believe that you can account for all variables is utter nonsense and speaks to the fact that you are showing great arrogance in your supposition.

youre right, they may both run off in the same direction.

yes, theres some degree of chance thats not what theyll do. theres also a chance that a crazed deer will charge at you and gore you with his antlers, that a rabid raccoon will spring out of a tree and bite you on the face, that youll encounter a hungry cougar (on the east coast) who decides to hunt you, or that the mouse running around the shelter youre sleeping in has hantavirus. there was an earthquake on the east coast a year or two ago, someone could have easily been crushed by a large boulder jarred loose by this minor tremor. i file all of these entirely possible events under things not worth worrying about.

anyone who cares to direct me towards an expert stating that he believes black bears sows to act aggressive in defense of their cubs, i'm all ears.

Creek Dancer
10-16-2012, 14:15
Very clear, indeed.

Thanks, slow mind.

tdoczi
10-16-2012, 14:17
Black bear mention in Tom's video is at 7:35 and is quite clear
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PExlT-5VU-Y

i dont disagree and havent said anything here that contradicts this. i will say though its rare for a bear expert to make such a point blank statement about black bears. he may also be referring to just that population in particular and i'd be interested in knowing if he felt that way about black bears in general.

RCBear
10-16-2012, 14:22
Black bear mention in Tom's video is at 7:35 and is quite clear
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PExlT-5VU-Y


best piece of information: "they are MOSTLY risk averse". MOSTLY is a word that is far too lacking in most summations regarding many topics, not just bears. Everyone must determine what they need to employ to make themselves feel comfortable hiking in the great outdoors, from their selection of gear, type of food, style of hiking and approach to potential danger. I have no time for, nor use for people that give me definitive answers, especially when they don't earn their living on the topic.

gizzy bear
10-16-2012, 14:24
youre right, they may both run off in the same direction.

yes, theres some degree of chance thats not what theyll do. theres also a chance that a crazed deer will charge at you and gore you with his antlers, that a rabid raccoon will spring out of a tree and bite you on the face, that youll encounter a hungry cougar (on the east coast) who decides to hunt you, or that the mouse running around the shelter youre sleeping in has hantavirus. there was an earthquake on the east coast a year or two ago, someone could have easily been crushed by a large boulder jarred loose by this minor tremor. i file all of these entirely possible events under things not worth worrying about.

anyone who cares to direct me towards an expert stating that he believes black bears sows to act aggressive in defense of their cubs, i'm all ears.


i think the better response would have been " in most cases they will run off " ... but i TRULY don't think anyone should frolic through the forest as if NO black bear is dangerous...that seems foolish to me...all wild animals, are just that, wild...and altho they can be predictable in some/most of their actions...to ASSume that those actions are guaranteed is ludicrous... and could lead to very dangerous situations...prepare for the worst and hope for the best...a good motto :)

tdoczi
10-16-2012, 14:33
i think the better response would have been " in most cases they will run off " ... but i TRULY don't think anyone should frolic through the forest as if NO black bear is dangerous...that seems foolish to me...all wild animals, are just that, wild...and altho they can be predictable in some/most of their actions...to ASSume that those actions are guaranteed is ludicrous... and could lead to very dangerous situations...prepare for the worst and hope for the best...a good motto :)

dont equate the point i have been trying to make here with me claiming that bears are not and can never be dangerous.

and again, the behavior of deer, raccoons, squirrels, birds, mice, snakes, over head tree branches... none of these things are guaranteed either. its a question of what is a reasonable precaution against something that there is an appreciable risk of occurring, and what is just being afraid of remote possibilities. do you hike prepared to be crushed by a falling tree? lots of tree out there to fall and kill you, better prepare for the worst, right?

slow mind
10-16-2012, 14:38
dont equate the point i have been trying to make here with me claiming that bears are not and can never be dangerous.

and again, the behavior of deer, raccoons, squirrels, birds, mice, snakes, over head tree branches... none of these things are guaranteed either. its a question of what is a reasonable precaution against something that there is an appreciable risk of occurring, and what is just being afraid of remote possibilities. do you hike prepared to be crushed by a falling tree? lots of tree out there to fall and kill you, better prepare for the worst, right?

When on shorter local week or so hikes I carry a 12ga. On long hikes I carry bear spray. Either one has me prepared for all the above but the falling tree. Although the mouse I have and would again just stomp on.

RCBear
10-16-2012, 14:47
[QUOTE=tdoczi;1349544]youre right, they may both run off in the same direction.

yes, theres some degree of chance thats not what theyll do. theres also a chance that a crazed deer will charge at you and gore you with his antlers, that a rabid raccoon will spring out of a tree and bite you on the face, that youll encounter a hungry cougar (on the east coast) who decides to hunt you, or that the mouse running around the shelter youre sleeping in has hantavirus. there was an earthquake on the east coast a year or two ago, someone could have easily been crushed by a large boulder jarred loose by this minor tremor. i file all of these entirely possible events under things not worth worrying about.


it's the word "worrying" in the last sentence that bothers me. again, that is an assumption being made by you. I don't worry that i will be mugged going to the 7-11 at night, but i am more alert in doing so than i would be at noon. Bad things can happen just as easily no matter the time of day, which underscores the point that some are trying to make.

tdoczi
10-16-2012, 14:56
I don't worry that i will be mugged going to the 7-11 at night, but i am more alert in doing so than i would be at noon. Bad things can happen just as easily no matter the time of day, which underscores the point that some are trying to make.

because there is evidence that more crime happens at night. my ONLY point has ever been that there is no evidence or even any statements of conjecture that i am aware of by any sort of bear expert, that shows that black bear sows act aggressive in defense of cubs. could it happen? i suppose. just as you might get mugged at that same 7-11 in broad daylight in full view of 25 witnesses, including a cop who stopped in for a donut. is it likely enough that it should cause someone to behave differently? no. more to the point, should someone go around and say "hey, stay away from that 7-11, youll get mugged if you go there!" definitely not.

tdoczi
10-16-2012, 14:57
When on shorter local week or so hikes I carry a 12ga. On long hikes I carry bear spray. Either one has me prepared for all the above but the falling tree. Although the mouse I have and would again just stomp on.

what if it bites you in your sleep and is carrying hantavirus?

theres countless dangerous things that are "possible."

atmilkman
10-16-2012, 14:58
I walk down the trail carrying a bell,
Hoping mama bear doesn't send me to hell,
I startle her and her cubs coming around the bend,
Now she wants to chew a hole in my azz end.

Sorry, still bored.
Okay ChinMusic, your up.

slow mind
10-16-2012, 15:01
I think there was a girl named Ani Hass ... not sure of the details surrounding the attack but she was trail running and saw two cubs run up a tree and was then charged and bitten by the mother. Do your own research on that one I'm done. Just search her name.

Creek Dancer
10-16-2012, 15:02
because there is evidence that more crime happens at night. my ONLY point has ever been that there is no evidence or even any statements of conjecture that i am aware of by any sort of bear expert, that shows that black bear sows act aggressive in defense of cubs. could it happen? i suppose. just as you might get mugged at that same 7-11 in broad daylight in full view of 25 witnesses, including a cop who stopped in for a donut. is it likely enough that it should cause someone to behave differently? no. more to the point, should someone go around and say "hey, stay away from that 7-11, youll get mugged if you go there!" definitely not.

theres nothing to discuss, whether you agree or not, whether its what you intended to say or not, the idea that a black bear sow and cubs is something to be especially careful or attentive to or afraid of is not accurate. i have evidence on my side. those who would disagree having nothing but fear, legend and hearsay.


Let's see your evidence.

gizzy bear
10-16-2012, 15:22
because there is evidence that more crime happens at night. my ONLY point has ever been that there is no evidence or even any statements of conjecture that i am aware of by any sort of bear expert, that shows that black bear sows act aggressive in defense of cubs. could it happen? i suppose. just as you might get mugged at that same 7-11 in broad daylight in full view of 25 witnesses, including a cop who stopped in for a donut. is it likely enough that it should cause someone to behave differently? no. more to the point, should someone go around and say "hey, stay away from that 7-11, youll get mugged if you go there!" definitely not.

here is the case Slow Mind was talking about ....i copy and pasted...











NEW YORK (AP) -- Former U.S. Ski Team member Ani Haas says she feels fortunate to have suffered just scratches to her left arm and chest when she encountered a black bear while running in western Montana.
The 24-year-old freestyle skier told NBC's "Today" Monday that she was on a trail near her home town of Missoula, Mont., Friday morning when she saw some cubs scramble up a tree. The mother bear ran at her. Haas tried to run away, but was not fast enough. She turned around to face the bear and it lunged at her.
Haas hit the bear in the head and threw a rock at it before the bear attacked her again.
Haas says she backed away and the bear eventually lost interest.
***************
so YES they do attack ....

gizzy bear
10-16-2012, 15:37
dont equate the point i have been trying to make here with me claiming that bears are not and can never be dangerous.

and again, the behavior of deer, raccoons, squirrels, birds, mice, snakes, over head tree branches... none of these things are guaranteed either. its a question of what is a reasonable precaution against something that there is an appreciable risk of occurring, and what is just being afraid of remote possibilities. do you hike prepared to be crushed by a falling tree? lots of tree out there to fall and kill you, better prepare for the worst, right?

Originally Posted by tdoczi http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/images/Eloquent/buttonsgreen/viewpost-right.png (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?p=1349454#post1349454) and thats all that will ever happen. <------ that response leads people to think they should never be fearful of a black bear and that you have 100% knowledge of that...well you don't...you can't...that would be impossible... as for the other WILD animals in the forest, i am very cautious of them as well, because there is NO GUARANTEE of a wild animal's behavior... and the whole tree diversion is a nice trolling attempt...

daddytwosticks
10-16-2012, 16:11
I like to be real quiet while on the trail so I can sneek up behind a fat momma bear and goose her in the azz!

Seriously, you have a better chance of getting hit by lightning or having a tree fall on you than getting attacked by a black bear. :)

88BlueGT
10-16-2012, 16:18
I'm more worried about raccoon's in the woods than bears

swjohnsey
10-16-2012, 16:20
How many folks died last year from dog attacks? You afraid of dogs? About 40,000 folks died on American highways last year. You afraid to drive?

Seein' a bear on the trail will be a highlight of your hike. I had a curious juvenile come right up to my tent in New York.

gizzy bear
10-16-2012, 16:34
How many folks died last year from dog attacks? You afraid of dogs? About 40,000 folks died on American highways last year. You afraid to drive?

Seein' a bear on the trail will be a highlight of your hike. I had a curious juvenile come right up to my tent in New York.

i am not afraid of dogs, however i am cautious of ones i am not familiar with...i am also cautious when i drive, since i am aware there are non-drivers out there...just being smart....that is all....i would much rather err on the side of caution, then die on the side of oblivious...

swjohnsey
10-16-2012, 16:37
Put the bells on your pack, it gives us somethin' to joke about.

RCBear
10-16-2012, 16:59
this has been entertaining, but the reality is just as several have mentioned. far more likely to have something bad befall you in civilization than on the AT. and if you see a black bear, most likely it will be a highlight of the trip and not the end of it.

that said, i would tell anyone that is super concerned to find a different pasttime. the other option, if bear spray isn't on your list, of course is to hike with concealed carry, deal with the additional weight cost and take the time to properly learn, understand and practice to become proficient in both carrying and firing a sidearm. For black bear, a .357 with hot loads would probably do the trick, although that is the minimum caliber i would suggest. and even then, proper placement would be critical. hit him with the first 5 and if that doesn't stop him, save the last round for yourself :)

tdoczi
10-16-2012, 16:59
Let's see your evidence.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/11/science/11bears.html?_r=0

RCBear
10-16-2012, 17:05
I am not advocating the above of course, simply saying that short of a serious size caliber round properly placed everything else would be in the hands of the Gods if one did not stop at a "bluff" charge. and then you have varying state concealed reciprocity laws regarding permits that you would have to either spend the time securing , or simply decide to ignore and make sure noone knows you are carrying. Again, this is one of those topics that is probably better served having in person with someone than putting in a forum since you will receive all of these types of responsed (including mine) :)

Slo-go'en
10-16-2012, 17:36
For black bear, a .357 with hot loads would probably do the trick, although that is the minimum caliber i would suggest. and even then, proper placement would be critical. hit him with the first 5 and if that doesn't stop him, save the last round for yourself :)

Sure, shot a bear out of season and without a hunting permit and even if your legal to carry the gun, your in a heap of trouble if a game warden finds out. You better be able to prove the bear was commping on your leg before you shot it.

HikerMom58
10-16-2012, 17:43
Wow, I'm away for a while and the thread is talking about killing a bear now... sounds like it's still pretty light hearted tho. :0)
I thought the poem was funny... I'll have to go back to read that again... :D

Creek Dancer
10-16-2012, 17:57
[QUOTE=tdoczi;1349622]http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/11/science/11bears.html?_r=0[

That's not evidence to support your point. In fact, quite the opposite.

The black bear findings, published Wednesday in the Journal of Wildlife Management, suggest that people should behave differently around different bears. With a mother defending cubs, “you just back away calmly and give it some space,” Dr. Herrero said.

tdoczi
10-16-2012, 18:14
[QUOTE=tdoczi;1349622]http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/11/science/11bears.html?_r=0[

That's not evidence to support your point. In fact, quite the opposite.

The black bear findings, published Wednesday in the Journal of Wildlife Management, suggest that people should behave differently around different bears. With a mother defending cubs, “you just back away calmly and give it some space,” Dr. Herrero said.




the overall point of the article is that to the degree that black bears are dangerous, it is overwhelmingly not because of sows defending cubs, which is contrary to the implication of your post, whether that implication was intended by you or not. you have to acknowledge that whether you intended it to be read that way or not, your post can be read as saying that the most dangerous black bear encounter you are likely to have would be to surprise a mama and her cubs, this article plainly states that this is not the case. the small number of black bear attacks that do occur are stalking attacks and you likely would not know anything was going until the attack was literally underway. what to do should you encounter a sow and cubs is tangental to the overall theme.

tdoczi
10-16-2012, 18:15
[QUOTE=tdoczi;1349622]http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/11/science/11bears.html?_r=0[

That's not evidence to support your point. In fact, quite the opposite.

The black bear findings, published Wednesday in the Journal of Wildlife Management, suggest that people should behave differently around different bears. With a mother defending cubs, “you just back away calmly and give it some space,” Dr. Herrero said.



i mean if we just ant to take snippets out of context id like to submit this one-

"The study also found, contrary to popular perception, that the black bears most likely to kill are not mothers protecting cubs. Most attacks, 88 percent, involved a bear on the prowl, likely hunting for food. And most of those predators, 92 percent, were male."

RCBear
10-16-2012, 18:21
For black bear, a .357 with hot loads would probably do the trick, although that is the minimum caliber i would suggest. and even then, proper placement would be critical. hit him with the first 5 and if that doesn't stop him, save the last round for yourself :)

Sure, shot a bear out of season and without a hunting permit and even if your legal to carry the gun, your in a heap of trouble if a game warden finds out. You better be able to prove the bear was commping on your leg before you shot it.

Was actually being faciscous (sp?)...mostly. That said, if I made the decision to fire on anything living outside of legitimate hunting, it would be because I perceived a threat of either death or serious bodily injury and the last thing I would be concerned about is having to "prove" it. getting "chomped" on is not a prerequisite to using lethal force so that comment is without merit. My real point here is that as long as you are a responsible adult capable of thinking things through and prepared to accept the consequences of your actions, then this thread, in comparison to self research on the web should be viewed as entertainment purposes only.

anyone that considers this thread to carry any real relevance, is full of self importance.

Creek Dancer
10-16-2012, 18:24
+1 .........RCBear

Sarcasm the elf
10-16-2012, 18:28
I'm more worried about raccoon's in the woods than bears


Behaviorally they're about the same. Steal the unattended food and run away!!!

Sarcasm the elf
10-16-2012, 18:39
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/11/science/11bears.html?_r=0

Tdoczi, thank you! I had lost the link to this article and have been trying to find it for months!

I think the take away is this:
He might be surprised, then, by a new study that found that black bears — the most common bears in North America — have killed only 63 people in the United States and Canada over the last 109 years.
The study also found, contrary to popular perception, that the black bears most likely to kill are not mothers protecting cubs. Most attacks, 88 percent, involved a bear on the prowl, likely hunting for food. And most of those predators, 92 percent, were male.

In other words fatal attacks do happen, but they happen with a frequency of less than one death per year on the entire continent. When they do happen, it's not likely to be a mother with cubs that you have to worry about, but a starving young male (and the fatal attacks usually happen in Northern Canada according to Wikipedia).

Either way, something that kills less than one person a year in North America isn't going to cause me any worry.
If I'm going to waste time stressing about something, I'll stress over the fact that I haven't been on the trail enough this year!

HikerMom58
10-16-2012, 19:05
We aren't worried about surprising a mother with cubs resulting in an attack. The issue is claiming hard fast rules, declaring absolute truth combined with false interpretation (spins) from others comments. It's the stuff "crazy" is made of... where's common sense in all of this? It's MIA- on purpose, IMHO.

tdoczi
10-16-2012, 19:23
We aren't worried about surprising a mother with cubs resulting in an attack. The issue is claiming hard fast rules, declaring absolute truth combined with false interpretation (spins) from others comments. It's the stuff "crazy" is made of... where's common sense in all of this? It's MIA- on purpose, IMHO.


it all comes back to this statement which i object to and felt eneded correcting-

"I don't bother with bear bells, but if I see evidence of bear scat in the area and I am hiking alone, occassionally I will yell out "yo bear" just to let them know I am in their woods. I don't want to surprise some huge sow and her babies that are just around the bend. This might be a uselss tactic too. I really don't know. But it makes me feel better."

in your honest unvarnished not trying to make a point opinion, do you disagree that this statement can be read to say "black bear sows with cubs are especially dangerous." and do you disagree that the article i linked to disproves this idea?

its not a question of "to each heir own." someone else is going to read a statement like that and walk away with an invalid conclusion and thus further perpetuate an unfounded fear.

Starchild
10-16-2012, 19:33
My own take on it is it may be useful physiologically. Hiking by yourself you sometimes get that uneasy feeling, usually the reason to yell out yo-bear, but the bear bells may give you the sense of protection as well without the yelling.

RCBear
10-16-2012, 19:34
I do have to agree with your point Tdoczi. which is why I take this whole thread a with comedic grain of salt only! :)

HikerMom58
10-16-2012, 19:38
I do have to agree with your point Tdoczi. which is why I take this whole thread a with comedic grain of salt only! :)

Yes indeed, and we need to be more concerned about earthquakes.... did anyone feel it up North?

tdoczi
10-16-2012, 19:39
My own take on it is it may be useful physiologically. Hiking by yourself you sometimes get that uneasy feeling, usually the reason to yell out yo-bear, but the bear bells may give you the sense of protection as well without the yelling.

dont make me link the article questioning the effectiveness of bear bells again.

HikerMom58
10-16-2012, 19:46
tdoczi... you are coming across as one that thinks very highly of oneself. Did you feel the earthquake in NJ?

Starchild
10-16-2012, 19:52
dont make me link the article questioning the effectiveness of bear bells again.
I really don't see how your cite has anything to do with the physiologically comfort provided by use of bear bells
regardless of their actual effectiveness.

MuddyWaters
10-16-2012, 19:54
If you use a bear bell, other hikers will want to kill you in your sleep.

Just clack your hiking poles together every once in while.

99% of black bears would be best be described as like a giant raccoon. However, it is the 1% that we worry about.

HikerMom58
10-16-2012, 20:00
I've got a better solution than bear bells, hike with someone who talks a lot (someone like meee!) Non-stop talking will do the trick.. ;)

gizzy bear
10-16-2012, 20:02
Bear bells... Only scare off straight bears... Juss sayin...

tdoczi
10-16-2012, 20:25
I really don't see how your cite has anything to do with the physiologically comfort provided by use of bear bells
regardless of their actual effectiveness.

a false sense of security is dangerous, thats why. if i have a potato in the shape of jesus i believe protects me from harm and decide that because of this i don't need to look both ways before crossing a street, i will have a great deal of physiological comfort as i am smashed to a pulp by a speeding taxi.

tdoczi
10-16-2012, 20:26
tdoczi... you are coming across as one that thinks very highly of oneself. Did you feel the earthquake in NJ?

much to my chagrin i actually did not feel it.

RCBear
10-16-2012, 20:30
Rainbow Care Bear doesnt care for that comment.

hikerboy57
10-16-2012, 20:30
didnt we agree already that an airhorn was the way to go?

gizzy bear
10-16-2012, 20:40
RCBear...rainbow care bear loves bells & his kuerig coffee maker...

gizzy bear
10-16-2012, 20:42
Hikerboy57... An airhorn seems a little more effective.... Then ... Bells....

gizzy bear
10-16-2012, 20:46
One time at bear camp....

Rasty
10-16-2012, 20:48
didnt we agree already that an airhorn was the way to go?

Or rap music!

slow mind
10-16-2012, 20:48
One time at bear camp....

.... I stuck bear bells in m ...well I better not.

gizzy bear
10-16-2012, 20:54
@ slow mind... Perhaps there is a bear flute?!?!?

gizzy bear
10-16-2012, 20:56
Bear flute sounds as scary as bells... Just cruising thru the woods playin my bear flute... Scarin off bear ;)

gizzy bear
10-16-2012, 21:01
I think I may have a invention here somewhere!!! The Bear Flute... Beautiful music... Dancin bears.... Everybody knows dancin bears aren't scary!!!!

thecyclops
10-16-2012, 21:02
I find this works better...
http://postimage.org/image/qswyvj9j3/

thecyclops
10-16-2012, 21:04
Edit 17805

gizzy bear
10-16-2012, 21:08
Some people here get so caught up in forcing their point rather than offering friendly advice that , my mind looses focus ... Good personal experiences are nice ... But I don't cate to be force fed... To each his own... You will never catch me honestly TELLING someone else what to do ...just looking for objective information... With a side of funny sometimes ... No need to be offended if others don't agree with you ...or me for that matter :)

Dash
10-16-2012, 21:09
I surprised a black bear with her cubs on MT LECONTE near the summit. She followed me for 1/4 mile and was very docile. I'm more concerned about them looking for food while i sleep in my tent.

tdoczi
10-16-2012, 21:11
Some people here get so caught up in forcing their point rather than offering friendly advice that , my mind looses focus ... Good personal experiences are nice ... But I don't cate to be force fed... To each his own... You will never catch me honestly TELLING someone else what to do ...just looking for objective information... With a side of funny sometimes ... No need to be offended if others don't agree with you ...or me for that matter :)

objective information- black bears sows with cubs are not more dangerous than any other black bear. that i wont allow someone to state otherwise unopposed is not "forcing" anything.

gizzy bear
10-16-2012, 21:31
@ tdoczi... Thanks! I get it... Perhaps you would like me to play a lnumber on my bear flute...a cheery little number would prolly be appropriate ... :) ps... We will NOT be attacked by any bear , live or of the chuckee cheese breed while I play... I have scienttific research to back this up... Checking the 12 pack mow....

slow mind
10-16-2012, 21:39
In light of activity on Whiteblaze this evening the candidates are expeted to debate the newly devoloped issue that bears may be the greatest threat to America.

tdoczi
10-16-2012, 21:43
http://www.mass.gov/dfwele/dfw/wildlife/facts/mammals/bear/black_bear_problem_faq.htm#prob14

HikerMom58
10-16-2012, 21:58
objective information- black bears sows with cubs are not more dangerous than any other black bear. that i wont allow someone to state otherwise unopposed is not "forcing" anything.

Ok... this thread has me laughing out loud but also pulling out my hair while making funny faces at my computer screen. Here's the deal... you can find articles about bear attacks, read bear behavior articles written by bear experts till the cows come home but here's the real deal-e-o - COMMON SENSE!! I LOVE common sense. If you encounter a bear, in the wild, it "ups the ante" when you approach a black bear that has cubs nearby... it's just one more thing that can piss off a bear if a human makes the "wrong" moves. Walking up on or "surprising" a bear with cubs doesn't automatically mean that the bear will be more aggressive in and of itself. I really don't believe that anyone was trying to say that from the comments I read. I "heard" that you just need to be more cautious around a sow with cubs b/c it's an added potenial risk of pissing the bear off, if they don't run away upon arrival. (sometimes they DON'T run away)
My daughter was THRILLED when she saw a mama bear and her 3 cubs playing around at a distance. The mama didn't run away when she saw my daughter.(Yes, the mama bear looked right at her) My daughter said, the mama bear stood up on her hind legs and sniffed the air in her direction after she looked at her. But, my daughter stayed at a safe distance, remained quiet & didn't move an inch but just let them wander off on their own after she enjoyed watching them as long as she could.

Every point I just made makes perfect sense to me. It's doesn't make me feel crazy or let my mind loose focus. Did I tell you, I LOVE common sense?

Darwin13
10-16-2012, 22:01
the fact that bears still exist might say something to the idea if bells are necessary.

hikerboy57
10-16-2012, 22:02
bears will dance to accordion music.
they love to polka

rockyiss
10-16-2012, 22:20
Most bears know you are there long before you know they are . We would be surprised how many bears slip away unnoticed by humans when they walk by . As far as mama bears not being aggressive, don't take a chance with them. We had some people on 4 wheelers behind our house on a trail when they came up on a momma and cubs , she put them up a tree and turned to take on the threat to her cubs , in her mind the people on the four wheelers . The people made the decision to back up and leave because she was not going to back down . It is amazing to me people won't get out of their car with my german shepard standing there but will get out to get a picture of a bear. I hike with bear spray. Better safe then sorry. Same with wearing orange

tdoczi
10-16-2012, 22:51
Every point I just made makes perfect sense to me. It's doesn't make me feel crazy or let my mind loose focus. Did I tell you, I LOVE common sense?


so your argument in essence is "i dont care what the experts say, this is what makes sense to me, so it must be right."

tdoczi
10-16-2012, 22:56
Every point I just made makes perfect sense to me. It's doesn't make me feel crazy or let my mind loose focus. Did I tell you, I LOVE common sense?

are you aware that "common sense" once dictated that the world was flat, that the sun rotated around the earth and that using leeches to suck the blood out of people was an effective medical remedy? common sense is often idiotic and wrong.

HikerMom58
10-16-2012, 23:19
tdoczi...I just stick what I know is true about this subject. I think I understand you- I accept you for who you are... we are good! :) I have an uncle that lives in NJ... Neptune, NJ. I have so many friends and family that live in the North.. my facebook home page lit up with reports of the quake. You didn't feel the earth move under your feet... huh? :0)

tdoczi
10-16-2012, 23:34
tdoczi...I just stick what I know is true about this subject. I think I understand you- I accept you for who you are... we are good! :) I have an uncle that lives in NJ... Neptune, NJ. I have so many friends and family that live in the North.. my facebook home page lit up with reports of the quake. You didn't feel the earth move under your feet... huh? :0)


except that what you "know is true" isnt really true. this is really turning into a classic. let me know if you need any leeches.

Sarcasm the elf
10-16-2012, 23:35
I've heard that bear bells will keep me safe from witches and that the Russians are more likely to invade on a full moon. If you have any well established scientific research proving that I'm obviously incorrect then we'll just have to agree to disagree. :D

....wait...what?

Lone Wolf
10-16-2012, 23:39
i don't care what the experts say, i've been tryin' for 25 years to get a bear to come into my tent while sleeping with my food. they just won't do it. guess i'll continue to sleep with my chow

tdoczi
10-16-2012, 23:41
tdoczi...I just stick what I know is true about this subject. I think I understand you- I accept you for who you are... we are good! :) I have an uncle that lives in NJ... Neptune, NJ. I have so many friends and family that live in the North.. my facebook home page lit up with reports of the quake. You didn't feel the earth move under your feet... huh? :0)


and since you seem to think i'm wrong about the earthquake too-
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/24/us/24quake.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

or is it just "common sense" that we dont have 5.8 earthquakes on the east coast?

gizzy bear
10-16-2012, 23:49
Dinglebeary much...tdoczi?!?

gizzy bear
10-16-2012, 23:53
Pretty sure you hope I get killed by a falling tree... To prove a point... But I just purchased a ultra light tree protector... [still dancin with the bears]

tdoczi
10-16-2012, 23:58
Dinglebeary much...tdoczi?!?

i'm going to assume your spelling was a deliberate witticism.

if that tree does fall on you just find some leeches to bandage any resulting wounds.

gizzy bear
10-17-2012, 00:02
Unrealistic ... Is ... Well ... Unrealistic ... I appreciate all advice that has a common sense approach .... Kanx... And sweet dreams :)

tdoczi
10-17-2012, 00:04
Unrealistic ... Is ... Well ... Unrealistic ... I appreciate all advice that has a common sense approach .... Kanx... And sweet dreams :)

oh, and watch out for copperheads. you know they are known be extremely aggressive and will actually chase people in an effort to try and bite them, right?

OzJacko
10-17-2012, 03:18
You guys are lucky over there.
We have drop bears in Australia.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULEQpUY_crc

Karma13
10-17-2012, 04:53
13are you aware that "common sense" once dictated that the world was flat, that the sun rotated around the earth and that using leeches to suck the blood out of people was an effective medical remedy?


except that what you "know is true" isnt really true. this is really turning into a classic. let me know if you need any leeches.

I'd avoid the "leeches as anachronism" argument, given that medical leeches have made a huge comeback and are currently being used for all sorts of treatments. They've been approved by the FDA since 2004.

Don't know whether the leeches are afraid of bears, though.

tdoczi
10-17-2012, 06:27
I'd avoid the "leeches as anachronism" argument, given that medical leeches have made a huge comeback and are currently being used for all sorts of treatments. They've been approved by the FDA since 2004.

Don't know whether the leeches are afraid of bears, though.

interesting... has anyone found the edge of the world and sailed off it yet?

Karma13
10-17-2012, 06:33
Go for it!

OzJacko
10-17-2012, 06:37
interesting... has anyone found the edge of the world and sailed off it yet?
Yeah...it's better down here....:D

gizzy bear
10-17-2012, 06:42
Group hug :)

tdoczi
10-17-2012, 06:47
Group hug :)


no way, i wouldnt want to catch cooties.

HikerMom58
10-17-2012, 08:23
no way, i wouldnt want to catch cooties.

If you are serious, then the red flags that were popping up in the beginning are now hitting me in the face......nogrouphug

WingedMonkey
10-17-2012, 08:33
no way, i wouldnt want to catch cooties.

Just for that I'm going to un-friend you from face book. Oh wait, I forgot I don't have any Facebook friends.

tdoczi
10-17-2012, 08:46
If you are serious, then the red flags that were popping up in the beginning are now hitting me in the face......nogrouphug

oy

allow me to recap

1) the world is flat
2) the sun rotates around the earth
3) leeches are an effective medical treatment (putting aside the fact they might actually be, though i doubt in the same sense or to the same degree they were once considered)
4) copperheads will chase you down and bite you
5) group hugs will give you cooties
6) black bear sows with cubs are especially dangerous

see where i was going with that? good.

OzJacko
10-17-2012, 08:51
oy

allow me to recap

1) the world is flat
2) the sun rotates around the earth
3) leeches are an effective medical treatment (putting aside the fact they might actually be, though i doubt in the same sense or to the same degree they were once considered)
4) copperheads will chase you down and bite you
5) group hugs will give you cooties
6) black bear sows with cubs are especially dangerous

see where i was going with that? good.
I hope you realise in a flat world scenario what the USA looks like from down here......full of nothing but ********....:)

OzJacko
10-17-2012, 08:53
Oops - just found out one of the words that WB doesn't allow. Hope that doesn't get me an alligator bite.
Funny thing is that if I had spelt it the way I normally do it would probably have got through but that looks more offensive to me.:o

tdoczi
10-17-2012, 09:05
I hope you realise in a flat world scenario what the USA looks like from down here......full of nothing but ********....:)

this posts tempts me to argue about just where "down here" would be in relation to the USA if the world were actually flat but thats too moronic an argument even for me.

no, the point was i listed 6 things that are/were believed to be true at various times and by various people that are all a bunch of, to use the popular word of the week, malarkey.

gizzy bear
10-17-2012, 09:05
no way, i wouldnt want to catch cooties.

no worries...you aren't in the group :)

OzJacko
10-17-2012, 09:14
this posts tempts me to argue about just where "down here" would be in relation to the USA if the world were actually flat but thats too moronic an argument even for me.

no, the point was i listed 6 things that are/were believed to be true at various times and by various people that are all a bunch of, to use the popular word of the week, malarkey.
Very relevant link which for various reasons I won't elaborate in here... Page updates every couple of days so for latecomers you may need to go back...:)

http://xkcd.com/

Starchild
10-17-2012, 09:32
a false sense of security is dangerous, thats why.
How is using bear bells a false sense of security when your cite basically says the probability of bear attacks is very low and as I take it not to be considered a reasonable risk?

If someone needs bear bells to achieve that level of confidence they are just getting themselves in line with the reality of the situation and if they need bear bells to do that that's fine with me.**

** well if they only jingle them when I'm not hiking with them that's fine with me, in a group I would prefer them to quite the bells.

tdoczi
10-17-2012, 09:37
How is using bear bells a false sense of security when your cite basically says the probability of bear attacks is very low and as I take it not to be considered a reasonable risk?

If someone needs bear bells to achieve that level of confidence they are just getting themselves in line with the reality of the situation and if they need bear bells to do that that's fine with me.**

** well if they only jingle them when I'm not hiking with them that's fine with me, in a group I would prefer them to quite the bells.

i was referring to a different article i cited months back in a totally different thread. thats why i said "dont make me cite the article questioning the effectiveness of bearbells again." you are correct, the article i cited here has nothing to do with bear bells.

at risk of getting off topic (or is it on topic) the other article explains how grizzly bears have been studied and shown to not even notice the sound of bearbells. so, in grizzly country, wearing them in lieu of making actual noise is, in fact, dangerous. thats basically what i was saying. amongst blackbears? sure, i guess wear them if it really floats your boat.

Starchild
10-17-2012, 09:43
at risk of getting off topic (or is it on topic) the other article explains how grizzly bears have been studied and shown to not even notice the sound of bearbells. so, in grizzly country, wearing them in lieu of making actual noise is, in fact, dangerous. thats basically what i was saying. amongst blackbears? sure, i guess wear them if it really floats your boat.

Well the old hiking joke fits here nicely, how does one tell the difference between grizzle bear scat and black bear scat?

The grizzle bear scat contains bear bells and has a pepper spray odor.

HikerMom58
10-17-2012, 10:20
Arrogant, haughty behaviours or attitudes

Firmly convinced that he or she is unique and, being special, can only be understood by, should only be treated by, or associate with, other special or unique, or high-status people (or institutions) "Cerebral"

Devalue much?

tdoczi
10-17-2012, 10:23
Arrogant, haughty behaviours or attitudes

Firmly convinced that he or she is unique and, being special, can only be understood by, should only be treated by, or associate with, other special or unique, or high-status people (or institutions) "Cerebral"

Devalue much?

theres no need to mount some sort of character attack on me because something you thought was true isnt and you refuse to accept it even when shown evidence of its invalidity. the fact that i wont in effect to say to you "yes, youre right, the world is flat if you want to believe it is" doesnt make me any of the things you claim it does.

HikerMom58
10-17-2012, 12:00
theres no need to mount some sort of character attack on me because something you thought was true isnt and you refuse to accept it even when shown evidence of its invalidity. the fact that i wont in effect to say to you "yes, youre right, the world is flat if you want to believe it is" doesnt make me any of the things you claim it does.

I tried to agree to disagree with you but you won't have it. You insist on insulting my intelligence along with everyone elses. When someone presents such behavior it makes you wonder why? (at least for me) No 2 people or group of people are going to agree on every single issue so it's about respect and willingness to get along with/accept others that becomes important. My gosh, some people have real issues with others not agreeing with them. Some kind of hatred develops from intolerance of others... it's the stuff wars are made of.
When someone throws off some kind of arrogant, haughty behaviours or attitudes, it makes me go- huh? I've been up close and personal with this type of thing before. Have you ever heard of black and white thinking? It's a problem. I personally don't care if you don't believe my truth. But, I have a problem with you coming across as superior to me b/c I don't believe your truth. AND the bit about not believing FACTS or "experts" is just a cover for your own intolerance. It really all about you. It starts with you and ends with you. I'm trying to get along .............

Alligator
10-17-2012, 12:02
OK folks, time to take a breather.

1stgenfarmboy
10-17-2012, 14:11
We had a retired Alaskan Forest Ranger tell us while we were on the BRPW last year that...Black bear skat smells like blue berries and has small rodent hair in it, and Grizzly bear skat smells like pepper spray and has bells in it.


Dar

tdoczi
10-17-2012, 14:18
We had a retired Alaskan Forest Ranger tell us while we were on the BRPW last year that...Black bear skat smells like blue berries and has small rodent hair in it, and Grizzly bear skat smells like pepper spray and has bells in it.


Dar

this joke has either been quoted or referred to 3 times in this thread, anyone know if thats a record?

1stgenfarmboy
10-17-2012, 14:22
:eek: thats what i get for not reading the hole thing....:datz

Sarcasm the elf
10-17-2012, 14:25
:eek: thats what i get for not reading the hole thing....:datzThat's alright, this thread has gotten quite silly very fast, you are probably better off having not read the whole thing. Welcome to the site by the way!

1stgenfarmboy
10-17-2012, 14:28
thanks...i will try to use all my forum etiquette from now on.

Many Moons
10-17-2012, 14:36
I don't bother with bear bells, but if I see evidence of bear scat in the area and I am hiking alone, occassionally I will yell out "yo bear" just to let them know I am in their woods. I don't want to surprise some huge sow and her babies that are just around the bend. This might be a uselss tactic too. I really don't know. But it makes me feel better.


Watch out that when u yell that the Yogi's don't think ur yelling for them! This spring in Ga. there were a whole group from Fla. that Robo said were Gypsy's and they we yogi-ing everything even asking for water out others thru's bottles.

Many Moons
10-17-2012, 14:45
This is why in my short time hiking the AT I found that I like my tent!!! Too much drama in the shelters!! Hike On!!!


Miller

Many Moons
10-17-2012, 14:46
This is why in my short time hiking the AT I found that I like my tent!!! Too much drama in the shelters!! Hike On!!!


Miller

ILMT = I like my tent

BobTheBuilder
10-17-2012, 14:54
720 trail miles and I have passed exactly one person wearing bear bells. I laughed to myself. Bring a dog instead, and make sure he sleeps in the shelter with you to guard you at night.

Pathfinder1
10-17-2012, 15:12
this joke has either been quoted or referred to 3 times in this thread, anyone know if thats a record?



Hi...


Don't know if it's a record or not...buy I also see it quite frequently on other forums.

slow mind
10-17-2012, 19:18
interesting... has anyone found the edge of the world and sailed off it yet?

Yes...Yes I have

http://s823.photobucket.com/albums/zz160/drobarge/

HikerMom58
10-17-2012, 19:37
Yes...Yes I have

http://s823.photobucket.com/albums/zz160/drobarge/

Slow mind... I don't have time right now to look at all ur pics but the ones I did look at are just beautiful! Do you still sail often?

slow mind
10-17-2012, 19:55
Slow mind... I don't have time right now to look at all ur pics but the ones I did look at are just beautiful! Do you still sail often?

I do- at least for the past 10 15 years, usually spend most of May thru September aboard. The pics are only from the 2011 summer... there are many seasons to add. However I am now looking at an AT thru so thats what brings me to Whiteblaze. I should mention, a float down the Mississippi whilst reading Huck Finn stories is running a close second.

slow mind
10-17-2012, 19:58
P.S. pic # 30 is yours truly....

HikerMom58
10-17-2012, 20:05
I do- at least for the past 10 15 years, usually spend most of May thru September aboard. The pics are only from the 2011 summer... there are many seasons to add. However I am now looking at an AT thru so thats what brings me to Whiteblaze. I should mention, a float down the Mississippi whilst reading Huck Finn stories is running a close second.

That is very interesting SM.... I'll look at all ur pics over time. I love water photo's. :) Funny that you answered my next question that I was going to ask u...how are your plans for the AT coming along? Hummm... I wouldn't know how to advise you but if you are a lil tired of the water- the mountains could be a welcome change for ya. I have a great "word picture" of you floating down the Mississippi reading Huck Finn books.... LOL

Raymond James
10-17-2012, 20:08
I have had several at least 8 encounters with bears. I carry a whistle and a bear bell. Mine has a magnet in a cover so you can have the bell quite or not. I have used the Whistle to get a female Black bear in Minnisota with cub from coming down a trail towards my 10 year old nephew and myself. She may have been going to turn around anyway but I thought she was close enough.


Out west I carry bear spray. In Canada's Northwest Territory or Nunavut I carry the bear spray and 12 gauge shot gun. I have been fortunate not to have used anything other than a bell or whistle.

tdoczi
10-17-2012, 22:02
http://www.alaska.com/2008/10/16/1944/are-bear-bells-worth-a-jingle.html

i'm not saying anything or adding anything or making any further comment, but there it is.

slow mind
10-18-2012, 12:46
Exact same info,from the same study, from the same person(tom smith) I posted a video link to waaaaaay back in this thread. You didn't even bother to watch it did you?

tdoczi
10-18-2012, 13:52
Exact same info,from the same study, from the same person(tom smith) I posted a video link to waaaaaay back in this thread. You didn't even bother to watch it did you?

i watched the at the time relevant quote about black bears. i did not watch the whole thing, but i'm more interested now, just dont have the time.

dmperkins74
10-21-2012, 08:31
I've been doing day hikes all over the trail for the past 5 years. I've carried a bell in a side pocket of my pack ever since my wife got me one... made her feel better. I've rarely found it annoying when hiking if I even notice it at all. I only "subdue" it when I'm hiking with a partner for concerns that it will annoy them.

Everyone who immediately brushes them off as ineffective make me laugh. Just because you haven't had a bear issue AND you didn't have a bell means nothing. I've had no bear issues and I DO have a bell... that must mean they ARE effective, right? No, of course not. I've yet to see anyone produce a scientific study on the effectiveness of bells here.

It really boils down to what makes you feel comfortable. If a bell will help you worry less about it and enjoy your hike more and won't annoy you, then go for it!

rickb
10-21-2012, 08:56
I've been doing day hikes all over the trail for the past 5 years. I've carried a bell in a side pocket of my pack ever since my wife got me one... made her feel better. I've rarely found it annoying when hiking if I even notice it at all. I only "subdue" it when I'm hiking with a partner for concerns that it will annoy them.

Everyone who immediately brushes them off as ineffective make me laugh. Just because you haven't had a bear issue AND you didn't have a bell means nothing. I've had no bear issues and I DO have a bell... that must mean they ARE effective, right? No, of course not. I've yet to see anyone produce a scientific study on the effectiveness of bells here.

It really boils down to what makes you feel comfortable. If a bell will help you worry less about it and enjoy your hike more and won't annoy you, then go for it!


A better approach would be to educate oneself to the fact that back bear present essentially zero risk to hikers along the AT.

Bells aren't going to help you feel comfortble at 2 am when you are sleeping and hear something in the woods. A knowlege of then and the actual history of encounters might, however.

Those that think a black bear sow is going to protect her cubs in any exrodinary way are giving them way too much maternal credit.

slow mind
10-21-2012, 09:38
I've been doing day hikes all over the trail for the past 5 years. I've carried a bell in a side pocket of my pack ever since my wife got me one... made her feel better. I've rarely found it annoying when hiking if I even notice it at all. I only "subdue" it when I'm hiking with a partner for concerns that it will annoy them.

Everyone who immediately brushes them off as ineffective make me laugh. Just because you haven't had a bear issue AND you didn't have a bell means nothing. I've had no bear issues and I DO have a bell... that must mean they ARE effective, right? No, of course not. I've yet to see anyone produce a scientific study on the effectiveness of bells here.

It really boils down to what makes you feel comfortable. If a bell will help you worry less about it and enjoy your hike more and won't annoy you, then go for it!

SIGH......... Again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PExlT-5VU-Y

tdoczi
10-21-2012, 09:56
It really boils down to what makes you feel comfortable. If a bell will help you worry less about it and enjoy your hike more and won't annoy you, then go for it!


do you feel the same way about people who carry guns with them because it makes them feel safe?

tdoczi
10-21-2012, 09:57
SIGH......... Again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PExlT-5VU-Y

i guess this video and the similar article i posted are not scientific enough for him.

or, like some others here, people just think they know what they know and theres no way anyone will ever convince them otherwise.

tdoczi
10-21-2012, 09:59
A better approach would be to educate oneself to the fact that back bear present essentially zero risk to hikers along the AT.

Bells aren't going to help you feel comfortble at 2 am when you are sleeping and hear something in the woods. A knowlege of then and the actual history of encounters might, however.

Those that think a black bear sow is going to protect her cubs in any exrodinary way are giving them way too much maternal credit.

i would actually say they do protect their cubs in an extraordinary way, the treeing thing is amazing, isnt it? what it isnt is threatening to humans, unless you act REALLY foolishly.

dmperkins74
10-21-2012, 10:08
do you feel the same way about people who carry guns with them because it makes them feel safe?

Ironically, the same logic DOES apply to those folks, they have a concern about defending themselves, however unfounded, so to nullify that concern, they carry a gun. However, when was the last time someone got bludgeoned to death with a bell?!? Guns are dangerous, bells are not, so that's a different conversation.

gizzy bear
10-21-2012, 10:09
Tdoczi... Are you srsly comparing bear bells with guns?!?! Rly?!?! That is like comparing apples to airplanes... Smh...

dmperkins74
10-21-2012, 10:18
i guess this video and the similar article i posted are not scientific enough for him.

or, like some others here, people just think they know what they know and theres no way anyone will ever convince them otherwise.


Haven't seen that video, and will definitely look at it (can't right now, heading out to a corn maze WOO HOO!) though. Is there a point in the video that discusses a study of the effectiveness of bear bells? If so, that's great! If not, it's completely irrelevant to my point.

My point is simply that if a bell relieves any anxiety, however unsupported by fact and eduction, then one might have a more pleasant hike and shouldn't hesitate to take one. Fear, by it's own nature, shuns logic and facts. Your chances of dying on a roller coaster are very slim, but some folks put their hands up in the air, others hold on for dear life. The latter simply do so to cope with a fear.

@ rickb: Nope, the bell doesn't help me at all at night, but we're talking about while hiking, not camping. And it's not about what's better or worse. I COMPLETELY agree with you about educating oneself on bears. But everyone has various fears and coping mechanisms. I might do a TON of research and still simply feel less anxious about my hiking with a bell.

dmperkins74
10-21-2012, 10:20
I'd also like to point out that we really haven't addressed the dinner bell option thoroughly enough. Dinner bells are terrible. I don't want a bell that might scare away dinner!!!!

slow mind
10-21-2012, 10:24
Sigh... yes it covers bells.

Raymond James
10-21-2012, 10:29
OK folks, time to take a breather.

Were is the like button?

gizzy bear
10-21-2012, 10:33
There's always the option to ignore the thread if not interested... Pretty simple....

Sarcasm the elf
10-21-2012, 10:37
I believe that black bears are less likely to attack hikers that are wearing clown costumes. If you all are looking for the piece of mind that comes from knowing that you are safe from bear attacks then I would highly recommend you wear one while hiking.

If you naysayers don't believe me, then I challenge you to find a single reputable study disproving clown costumes as an effective bear defense.

daddytwosticks
10-21-2012, 10:38
I don't need bells to make noise...I'm usually huffing and puffing, hacking up half-a-lung, and clacking my trekking poles together as I stumble down the trail! It's quite a sight (and sound). :)

dmperkins74
10-21-2012, 10:42
Sigh... yes it covers bells.

Sigh... Excellent, can't wait to watch it :)

dmperkins74
10-21-2012, 10:42
I don't need bells to make noise...I'm usually huffing and puffing, hacking up half-a-lung, and clacking my trekking poles together as I stumble down the trail! It's quite a sight (and sound). :)

For me it's cursing in addition to huffing and puffing :)

dmperkins74
10-21-2012, 10:43
I believe that black bears are less likely to attack hikers that are wearing clown costumes. If you all are looking for the piece of mind that comes from knowing that you are safe from bear attacks then I would highly recommend you wear one while hiking.

If you naysayers don't believe me, then I challenge you to find a single reputable study disproving clown costumes as an effective bear defense.

Sounds like a good study for a Halloween hike :)

Sarcasm the elf
10-21-2012, 10:45
Sounds like a good study for a Halloween hike :)

I'm also going to do a Christmas hike to test the effects of sleigh bells. :D

gizzy bear
10-21-2012, 10:48
That's because clowns are scary & bears arent dumb...

coach lou
10-21-2012, 10:53
I don't need bells to make noise...I'm usually huffing and puffing, hacking up half-a-lung, and clacking my trekking poles together as I stumble down the trail! It's quite a sight (and sound). :):banana
:D:banana
:D:banana:sun:sun

tdoczi
10-21-2012, 11:21
Tdoczi... Are you srsly comparing bear bells with guns?!?! Rly?!?! That is like comparing apples to airplanes... Smh...

i'm comparing unnecessary steps taken in the name of feeling safe with unnecessary steps taken in the name of feeling safe. chances are most people who carry guns are never going to feel the need to fire it, so why not?

tdoczi
10-21-2012, 11:23
My point is simply that if a bell relieves any anxiety, however unsupported by fact and eduction, then one might have a more pleasant hike and shouldn't hesitate to take one. Fear, by it's own nature, shuns logic and facts. Your chances of dying on a roller coaster are very slim, but some folks put their hands up in the air, others hold on for dear life. The latter simply do so to cope with a fear.


and some need a gun to releive their anxiety... if it makes them feel better why not, right?

tdoczi
10-21-2012, 11:23
Haven't seen that video, and will definitely look at it (can't right now, heading out to a corn maze WOO HOO!) though. Is there a point in the video that discusses a study of the effectiveness of bear bells? If so, that's great! If not, it's completely irrelevant to my point.


or you can just read the article i posted a link to

tdoczi
10-21-2012, 11:24
I believe that black bears are less likely to attack hikers that are wearing clown costumes. If you all are looking for the piece of mind that comes from knowing that you are safe from bear attacks then I would highly recommend you wear one while hiking.

If you naysayers don't believe me, then I challenge you to find a single reputable study disproving clown costumes as an effective bear defense.

i actually think this wont work for a sow and cubs... i mean what kid doesnt like clowns?

HikerMom58
10-21-2012, 11:25
:banana
:D:banana
:D:banana:sun:sun

I'm in LOVE.... here's to hoping everyone has a blessed day. #gettingready2gooutside

rickb
10-21-2012, 11:29
and some need a gun to releive their anxiety... if it makes them feel better why not, right?een killed by a bear

Five thru hikers and one long distance section hiker were murdered on the AT. A gun may or may not have helped them. That is a different issue.

No thru hiker has ever been killed or seriously injured by a bear.

Not a single one.

In fact the odds of anyone getting hurt by a bear are so incredibly low, that concern over them is better addressed on the couch than in the woods.

Sarcasm the elf
10-21-2012, 12:20
That's because clowns are scary & bears arent dumb...

Now that I will agree with 100%! I saw the movie version of Steven King's "IT" when I was ten years old, the emotional scars it left me with lasted for years.

Rasty
10-21-2012, 12:33
I believe that black bears are less likely to attack hikers that are wearing clown costumes. If you all are looking for the piece of mind that comes from knowing that you are safe from bear attacks then I would highly recommend you wear one while hiking.

If you naysayers don't believe me, then I challenge you to find a single reputable study disproving clown costumes as an effective bear defense.

i actually think this wont work for a sow and cubs... i mean what kid doesnt like clowns?

Lots of kids are scared of clowns.

gizzy bear
10-21-2012, 16:03
Tdoczi.... Necessary is only relevant to personal preference... And unbeknownst to you... You don't make that decision for all hikers... And your referencing bear bells to guns is ludicrous ... Oh.... IMO :)

HikerMom58
10-21-2012, 16:45
Tdoczi.... Necessary is only relevant to personal preference... And unbeknownst to you... You don't make that decision for all hikers... And your referencing bear bells to guns is ludicrous ... Oh.... IMO :)

You got it gizzy bear :) And unbeknownst to us some peeps cannot tolerate or accept personal preference... don't know why exactly but, yeah... it happens. :eek: Tdoczi... this comment is not directed at you, just agreeing with gizzy bear & making the point, that it happens....

I didn't read the comments about referencing bear bells to guns... I don't wanna know....

lots of kids are scared of clowns..........says Rasty.......... true dat... IMHO :)

tdoczi
10-21-2012, 17:34
Tdoczi.... Necessary is only relevant to personal preference... And unbeknownst to you... You don't make that decision for all hikers... And your referencing bear bells to guns is ludicrous ... Oh.... IMO :)

true enough. so if someone's personal preference is to carry a gun we should be accepting of that. why not? youre going to assume that just because they are carrying it they will be likely to accidentally cause harm with it? huge assumption.

tdoczi
10-21-2012, 17:36
Five thru hikers and one long distance section hiker were murdered on the AT.


now, are we sure they were **ON** the AT and not 3 feet off of it? (joke referencing a different argument, either laugh at it or dont, but dont think i'm being serious, please)

and really, doesnt just this prove that humans are more dangerous than bears? (as if this needed proving).

slow mind
10-21-2012, 17:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctTVcKNx8Rk

gizzy bear
10-21-2012, 21:19
Tdoczi... To insinuate that a person carrying a weapon ( legally) wouldn't feel safer given a serious situation of life or death.... Is ludicrouser!!! <--- oh yeah that's a word... Cuz I said so ;) kinda like you determine necessity ...

gizzy bear
10-21-2012, 21:21
hikermom... You just keep it real... I like that... :)

gizzy bear
10-21-2012, 21:25
And Sarcasm .... Ronald McDonald scares me...

gizzy bear
10-21-2012, 21:35
Oh!!! And PS.... if I feel my life is threatened by anyone , anywhere & I am carrying.... I will shoot... So tdoczi.... I am not what you are used to.... That person can "hope" I won't fire .... But that person will be dead wrong.... Or at least I hope... as for your opposition of bear bells.... I can't speak for that.... I hope you never pizz off the wrong bear....

atmilkman
10-21-2012, 21:36
And Sarcasm .... Ronald McDonald scares me...
Even clowning around at McDonalds can be scary.17844

HikerMom58
10-21-2012, 21:45
hikermom... You just keep it real... I like that... :)

Thanks gizzy bear... I like ur comments 2.... "cause I said soo" :D. I don't know if you had ur official:welcome
to White Blaze- but there u go... Woot!!

gizzy bear
10-21-2012, 21:55
atmilkman... The "heart attack in a sack" ... Pfft.. I love a good big mac... The ball pit... Uhhh not so much... Very scary!!!!

gizzy bear
10-21-2012, 21:59
And hikermom... I thank you... I've not been "officially" welcomed... Was really worried I may be "yoinked" ... My filter doesn't work :) my replacement filter is on backorder... So I cancelled it.....

gizzy bear
10-21-2012, 22:00
Woot!!!! :)

tdoczi
10-21-2012, 22:24
Tdoczi... To insinuate that a person carrying a weapon ( legally) wouldn't feel safer given a serious situation of life or death.... Is ludicrouser!!! <--- oh yeah that's a word... Cuz I said so ;) kinda like you determine necessity ...

i wasnt insinuating anything remotely of the sort

tdoczi
10-21-2012, 22:26
Oh!!! And PS.... if I feel my life is threatened by anyone , anywhere & I am carrying.... I will shoot... So tdoczi.... I am not what you are used to.... That person can "hope" I won't fire .... But that person will be dead wrong.... Or at least I hope... as for your opposition of bear bells.... I can't speak for that.... I hope you never pizz off the wrong bear....

oh lord, next time theres a dog thread youll probably be one of the people who wants to shoot everyone's dog, wont you?

Maratila
10-22-2012, 01:31
There were a lot of replies this, so I couldn't really read them all without spending a lot of time. I just wanted to give a little piece of something I learned ;) :

Bear bells are not good because sometimes they can train a predator to actually COME to you when they hear the bell, knowing it means a human, which means food or something. They were having this problem in Africa with lions.

Darwin13
10-22-2012, 03:10
There were a lot of replies this, so I couldn't really read them all without spending a lot of time. I just wanted to give a little piece of something I learned ;) :

Bear bells are not good because sometimes they can train a predator to actually COME to you when they hear the bell, knowing it means a human, which means food or something. They were having this problem in Africa with lions.


comparing a black bear to a lion is like comparing a comparing a king cobra to a black snake. Both can hurt ya but one will definitely kill you.

hikerboy57
10-22-2012, 08:43
and some need a gun to releive their anxiety... if it makes them feel better why not, right?
reducing your anxiety is not necessarily good. id rather not have any false sense of security and keep my senses heightened and on the alert.you can still do this and enjoy every moment of your hike.your instincts will keep you out of more trouble than either bells or guns.

HikerMom58
10-22-2012, 08:45
There were a lot of replies this, so I couldn't really read them all without spending a lot of time. I just wanted to give a little piece of something I learned ;) :

Bear bells are not good because sometimes they can train a predator to actually COME to you when they hear the bell, knowing it means a human, which means food or something. They were having this problem in Africa with lions.

Maratila.. welcome to White Blaze. :) I don't think any black bears on or around the AT will be drawn to the sound of bear bells so- no worries. We try to have fun around here while we all learn things. ;)

HikerMom58
10-22-2012, 08:48
oh lord, next time theres a dog thread youll probably be one of the people who wants to shoot everyone's dog, wont you?

I would give that assumption a negative....

OzJacko
10-22-2012, 08:53
Is this a bells thread, a dog thread or a guns thread??

Oh! It's a dead thread, run it's course....

HikerMom58
10-22-2012, 09:08
reducing your anxiety is not necessarily good. id rather not have any false sense of security and keep my senses heightened and on the alert.you can still do this and enjoy every moment of your hike.your instincts will keep you out of more trouble than either bells or guns.


Now that is good ole common sense & the most excellent comment from one of the BEST posters on WB, IMHO.. sorry if I embarassed you HB but it's true. :sun

hikerboy57
10-22-2012, 09:11
Now that is good ole common sense & the most excellent comment from one of the BEST posters on WB, IMHO.. sorry if I embarassed you HB but it's true. :sun

aw shucks, ma:p

Train Wreck
10-22-2012, 09:12
aw shucks, ma:p

Huh, you can't embarrass a car salesman. It's a scientific fact.

atmilkman
10-22-2012, 09:12
Is this a bells thread, a dog thread or a guns thread??

Oh! It's a dead thread, run it's course....
Every thread has the potential of being a gun and/or dog thread, but only if you're spittin' sunflower seeds and burning pop tart wrappers.

Hairbear
10-22-2012, 09:29
Now that is good ole common sense & the most excellent comment from one of the BEST posters on WB, IMHO.. sorry if I embarassed you HB but it's true. :sunhi k d it looks like your running for mayor or something lol.

gizzy bear
10-22-2012, 09:32
oh lord, next time theres a dog thread youll probably be one of the people who wants to shoot everyone's dog, wont you?



right...because dogs and bears are in the same class ...i will also shoot an slug, if it charges me!! i hike "guns a blazin"..... NOT!! i have common sense... and no one else can tell me different....not even you tdoczi :D

gizzy bear
10-22-2012, 09:33
I would give that assumption a negative....

and you would be correct :)

gizzy bear
10-22-2012, 09:34
reducing your anxiety is not necessarily good. id rather not have any false sense of security and keep my senses heightened and on the alert.you can still do this and enjoy every moment of your hike.your instincts will keep you out of more trouble than either bells or guns.

i agree..this is a very well said post!!

tdoczi
10-22-2012, 09:36
reducing your anxiety is not necessarily good. id rather not have any false sense of security and keep my senses heightened and on the alert.you can still do this and enjoy every moment of your hike.your instincts will keep you out of more trouble than either bells or guns.

whoa.. i think we just agreed again : )

tdoczi
10-22-2012, 09:38
Now that is good ole common sense & the most excellent comment from one of the BEST posters on WB, IMHO.. sorry if I embarassed you HB but it's true. :sun

he may be more eloquent about it, but ive been saying exactly the same thing, even before when topics like this have come up.

better to be educated and be smart than to take all sorts of steps (like wearing bear bells, or being afraid of sows with cubs) because of what you heard somewhere or what you think is "common sense."

i'm glad to hear you dont really diagree with this notion, i suspected all along you couldnt possibly.

hikerboy57
10-22-2012, 09:50
he may be more eloquent about it, but ive been saying exactly the same thing, even before when topics like this have come up.

better to be educated and be smart than to take all sorts of steps (like wearing bear bells, or being afraid of sows with cubs) because of what you heard somewhere or what you think is "common sense."

i'm glad to hear you dont really diagree with this notion, i suspected all along you couldnt possibly.

i told you great minds think alike. now if i can only get you to sit around for 4 or 5 hours......

WingedMonkey
10-22-2012, 09:53
It boils down to two types of hikers of the AT:

Those that hope the see a bear or better yet get a picture of one.

Or those that are afraid of the woods and probably shouldn't be out there.

gizzy bear
10-22-2012, 10:07
It boils down to two types of hikers of the AT:

Those that hope the see a bear or better yet get a picture of one.

Or those that are afraid of the woods and probably shouldn't be out there.

hahaha....afraid of the woods....that cracked me up!!! :D trees aren't scary AT ALL!!! so i don't fit into either of your 2 catagories.... and just where did you get your accreditation to determine the "two" groups that should be allowed to hike the AT? just curious? i LOVE the outdoors...and enjoy all nature...i also am very aware of my surroundings...and honestly i do NOT care to see a bear...that being said, i STILL have every right to be outdoors enjoying nature just like anyone else that does or DOES NOT fit into "your" 2 catagories....to each his own...bottom line... and enjoy the hike...

ne4kftr
10-22-2012, 10:08
New Hampshire Black Bears have been known to "Learn" that packs contain FOOD, and carry them off.

A good friend had a Mountainsmith badly damaged in the Pemi Wilderness a number of years ago. Don't contribute to their learning curve.

I had a Black Bear encounter hiking solo (quietly), early one morning in Baxter State Park - wind was blowing from the bear towards me.
IT spooked, and ran when it saw me move (I was seated - snacking about two feet off the trail.

Black Bears are generally a problem 1) when they become habituated to humans... (like those that visit the Dumpsters around Lincoln and North Woodstock, each evening) NH and loose their natural fear,
and 2) a sow with young cubs...

Females with young (any species) will protect their young aggressively.

Some noise can help you steer clear of an encounter.

HikerMom58
10-22-2012, 10:15
hi k d it looks like your running for mayor or something lol.

Hey there Hairbear... No, no... k d not running for anything...:) Where have you been? Better be resting up this winter for the long hike to VA and beyond.....:D


he may be more eloquent about it, but ive been saying exactly the same thing, even before when topics like this have come up.

better to be educated and be smart than to take all sorts of steps (like wearing bear bells, or being afraid of sows with cubs) because of what you heard somewhere or what you think is "common sense."

i'm glad to hear you dont really diagree with this notion, i suspected all along you couldnt possibly.

I say this all the time... if we could actually "talk" we could clear up all kinds of misunderstandings that are created on this site. I assume that everyone is smart , educated & uses common sense. :D I think I'm right most of the time. I'm teachable and would also hope most people are as well. I realize tho that being teachable is a big problem for some people. Some people would rather die than admit they are wrong/mistaken. They just aren't capable of doing that... Haha!! Tis the season for this convo, right? *Yikes*:eek:

Thanks for the "olive branch" tdoczi... it's accepted. :)

HikerMom58
10-22-2012, 10:17
and you would be correct :)

And that was a "no brainer".. ;) Have a great day gizzy!! :)

Train Wreck
10-22-2012, 10:20
It boils down to two types of hikers of the AT:

Those that hope the see a bear or better yet get a picture of one.

Or those that are afraid of the woods and probably shouldn't be out there.

WM,
Sometimes the latter can convert to the former, so it wouldn't hurt to let people learn for themselves. My first backpacking trip I was sure all the wildlife ahead of me was putting on their lunch bibs and getting out the forks and knives, grinning in anticipation... Many, many miles of section hiking later, I've seen exactly 4 bears and every time, each one retreated. The last time I sighted a bear was on a ridge in central NJ and I was disappointed to not get a good photo.

At the same time, I hiked the Smokies during an especially bad year of nuisance bear activity (1993) at certain shelters. There was one very determined bear who frequented Icewater Springs shelter and eventually had to be destroyed after a relocation attempt failed :( He haunted the Icewater shelter every night and would come right up to the chain link fence and look inside at the hikers. The week we were there, he chased two picnicking Germans up a tree and demolished their day packs going after their food. He was a dangerous bear because his normal behavior had been forever changed by human contact.

I think education, instinct and common sense. along with a small amount of "expect the unexpected", are the best mindset.

tdoczi
10-22-2012, 10:21
Black Bears are generally a problem 1) when they become habituated to humans... (like those that visit the Dumpsters around Lincoln and North Woodstock, each evening) NH and loose their natural fear,
and 2) a sow with young cubs...

Females with young (any species) will protect their young aggressively.

.

and round and round we go-

http://www.mass.gov/dfwele/dfw/wildl...faq.htm#prob14 (http://www.mass.gov/dfwele/dfw/wildlife/facts/mammals/bear/black_bear_problem_faq.htm#prob14)

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/11/sc...ears.html?_r=0

or do you also think "common sense" means credible sources like this are wrong? or that somehow both them and your completely contrary point of view can somehow both be right? or are you willing to go "hmm... interesting, maybe i have more to learn." like some people clearly are unable to do?

gizzy bear
10-22-2012, 10:21
New Hampshire Black Bears have been known to "Learn" that packs contain FOOD, and carry them off.

A good friend had a Mountainsmith badly damaged in the Pemi Wilderness a number of years ago. Don't contribute to their learning curve.

I had a Black Bear encounter hiking solo (quietly), early one morning in Baxter State Park - wind was blowing from the bear towards me.
IT spooked, and ran when it saw me move (I was seated - snacking about two feet off the trail.

Black Bears are generally a problem 1) when they become habituated to humans... (like those that visit the Dumpsters around Lincoln and North Woodstock, each evening) NH and loose their natural fear,
and 2) a sow with young cubs...

Females with young (any species) will protect their young aggressively.

Some noise can help you steer clear of an encounter.

i'll take a large popcorn and a large diet coke... just waiting on the show ....

gizzy bear
10-22-2012, 10:23
and round and round we go-

http://www.mass.gov/dfwele/dfw/wildl...faq.htm#prob14 (http://www.mass.gov/dfwele/dfw/wildlife/facts/mammals/bear/black_bear_problem_faq.htm#prob14)

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/11/sc...ears.html?_r=0

or do you also think "common sense" means credible sources like this are wrong? or that somehow both them and your completely contrary point of view can somehow both be right? or are you willing to go "hmm... interesting, maybe i have more to learn." like some people clearly are unable to do?




:D hehehe... it is "round and round" you go...

tdoczi
10-22-2012, 10:25
Hey there Hairbear... No, no... k d not running for anything...:) Where have you been? Better be resting up this winter for the long hike to VA and beyond.....:D



I say this all the time... if we could actually "talk" we could clear up all kinds of misunderstandings that are created on this site. I assume that everyone is smart , educated & uses common sense. :D I think I'm right most of the time. I'm teachable and would also hope most people are as well. I realize tho that being teachable is a big problem for some people. Some people would rather die than admit they are wrong/mistaken. They just aren't capable of doing that... Haha!! Tis the season for this convo, right? *Yikes*:eek:

Thanks for the "olive branch" tdoczi... it's accepted. :)

ok, so i just posted something that after subsequently reading this post i wish i had worded differently. try not to take too much offense at it : )

tdoczi
10-22-2012, 10:29
and round and round we go-

http://www.mass.gov/dfwele/dfw/wildl...faq.htm#prob14 (http://www.mass.gov/dfwele/dfw/wildlife/facts/mammals/bear/black_bear_problem_faq.htm#prob14)

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/11/sc...ears.html?_r=0

or do you also think "common sense" means credible sources like this are wrong? or that somehow both them and your completely contrary point of view can somehow both be right? or are you willing to go "hmm... interesting, maybe i have more to learn." like some people clearly are unable to do?


lets try that again

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/11/science/11bears.html?_r=0

Train Wreck
10-22-2012, 10:34
lets try that again

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/11/science/11bears.html?_r=0

"For example, a black bear that grabbed 11-year-old Samuel Ives from his family’s tent in Utah’s American Fork Canyon in 2007, killing him, had apparently slashed another tent earlier that day. Last week, a judge awarded the family $1.95 million, saying the federal Forest Service should have warned them about a dangerous bear."

At the risk of highjacking this thread, I didn't know an individual could sue (and win) a case against a government agency like the Forest Service. So now the USFS can be held responsible for the actions of animals within its boundaries?

WingedMonkey
10-22-2012, 10:38
I hiked the Smokies during an especially bad year of nuisance bear activity (1993) at certain shelters. There was one very determined bear who frequented Icewater Springs shelter and eventually had to be destroyed after a relocation attempt failed :( He haunted the Icewater shelter every night and would come right up to the chain link fence and look inside at the hikers. The week we were there, he chased two picnicking Germans up a tree and demolished their day packs going after their food. He was a dangerous bear because his normal behavior had been forever changed by human contact.
They should have all rang thier bells at him, that would have solved that problem.
:p

Train Wreck
10-22-2012, 10:40
They should have all rang thier bells at him, that would have solved that problem.
:p

I don't think he was into handbell choirs...

gizzy bear
10-22-2012, 10:48
WM,
Sometimes the latter can convert to the former, so it wouldn't hurt to let people learn for themselves. My first backpacking trip I was sure all the wildlife ahead of me was putting on their lunch bibs and getting out the forks and knives, grinning in anticipation... Many, many miles of section hiking later, I've seen exactly 4 bears and every time, each one retreated. The last time I sighted a bear was on a ridge in central NJ and I was disappointed to not get a good photo.

At the same time, I hiked the Smokies during an especially bad year of nuisance bear activity (1993) at certain shelters. There was one very determined bear who frequented Icewater Springs shelter and eventually had to be destroyed after a relocation attempt failed :( He haunted the Icewater shelter every night and would come right up to the chain link fence and look inside at the hikers. The week we were there, he chased two picnicking Germans up a tree and demolished their day packs going after their food. He was a dangerous bear because his normal behavior had been forever changed by human contact.

I think education, instinct and common sense. along with a small amount of "expect the unexpected", are the best mindset.

well said TW!!! very well said :D

tdoczi
10-22-2012, 10:59
"For example, a black bear that grabbed 11-year-old Samuel Ives from his family’s tent in Utah’s American Fork Canyon in 2007, killing him, had apparently slashed another tent earlier that day. Last week, a judge awarded the family $1.95 million, saying the federal Forest Service should have warned them about a dangerous bear."

At the risk of highjacking this thread, I didn't know an individual could sue (and win) a case against a government agency like the Forest Service. So now the USFS can be held responsible for the actions of animals within its boundaries?

i think youll find a thread discussing that in depth around here somewhere. i think (hope) it hinged on the fact that not enough action was taken immediately following an incident and not in some way holds the usfs responsible for any and all bear behavior in a national forest.

RCBear
10-22-2012, 11:20
i think youll find a thread discussing that in depth around here somewhere. i think (hope) it hinged on the fact that not enough action was taken immediately following an incident and not in some way holds the usfs responsible for any and all bear behavior in a national forest.

That would make more sense. I would hate to think we have come that far down the litigation path that our national parks and forests need to manage intervention of animal behavior. Might as well just backpack at the local zoo at that point.

HikerMom58
10-22-2012, 11:29
[QUOTE=tdoczi;1351720]ok, so i just posted something that after subsequently reading this post i wish i had worded differently. try not to take too much offense at it : )[/QUOTE

No offense taken.. :0)

rickb
10-22-2012, 11:40
Females with young (any species) will protect their young aggressively.

Some noise can help you steer clear of an encounter.


In my personal experience mother bears with cubs have been real chickens.

0n the other hand there was a mother Ruffed Grouse with chicks in the middle of the trail that was a real bear.

Go figure.

gizzy bear
10-22-2012, 11:43
That would make more sense. I would hate to think we have come that far down the litigation path that our national parks and forests need to manage intervention of animal behavior. Might as well just backpack at the local zoo at that point.

it is sad when animals become "humanized" because then...they really are a threat....and unfortunatley, i havent seen any special necklace or shiny hoop earrings being worn by those bears to let real humans know they are a potential threat....so therefore, i would be very cautious....ALL the time (including a sow and her cubs)...PS i bought an annual backpacking pass at riverbanks zoo ;) yikes!!

hikerboy57
10-22-2012, 11:48
In my personal experience mother bears with cubs have been real chickens.

0n the other hand there was a mother Ruffed Grouse with chicks in the middle of the trail that was a real bear.

Go figure.
those birds are nuts!! ive since taken to wearing grouse bells.

coach lou
10-22-2012, 11:53
those birds are nuts!! ive since taken to wearing grouse bells.
I've seen those at Campmor. They are very small and they will not bother your hiking partners!

Train Wreck
10-22-2012, 12:29
those birds are nuts!! ive since taken to wearing grouse bells.

Foremost among the forest grumps
The grouchy grouse stands out
Made Hikerboy feel like a chump
And put him in a rout.