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leaftye
10-21-2012, 06:33
For years I've used Backpacking Light and this forum. BPL more for technical discussions, and this forum more for discussion long distance hiking techniques. Unfortunately spam at BPL has grown worse over the past year, and much more so in the past week. It looks like the owner and administration there is completely unwilling to take even the most basic, free and effective steps to save their forum.

I know quite a few people here participate there too, and I suspect more people will sign up here as the fallout at BPL continues. While the primary purpose of Whiteblaze is for the AT, I hope it can accommodate BPL refugees as well.

Lone Wolf
10-21-2012, 07:15
Trailplace is pretty dead too

jakedatc
10-21-2012, 07:38
Perhaps the Ultralight sub-forum here will see more traffic. it is sad how BPL has gone down the drain, it got me back into backpacking after a long hiatus. It was pretty evident last year when Ryan stopped posting all together, despite nasty criticism and complaints, that he was letting it burn to the ground.

10-K
10-21-2012, 07:49
They still sell subscriptions though... Been a member for years but for the articles, not the forum.

WingedMonkey
10-21-2012, 08:27
Maybe they ran out of Kool Aid.


:banana

Tipi Walter
10-21-2012, 09:26
Maybe they ran out of Kool Aid.


:banana

Touché . . . . . . . . .

Wise Old Owl
10-21-2012, 09:34
Sad to hear.

Sailing_Faith
10-21-2012, 09:37
I moderate / administer various other topic internet discussion forums. The spammers have gotten more and more savy. I am sure that there are many attempts to infiltrate here (many of them I have reported, and our team here has responded very quickly to!)

At the risk of over-dramatizing things, I know it is hard to watch a forum decline. You invest something of yourself in a 'place' when you choose to post.... and watching that go by the wayside is difficult.

I hope all the BPL refugees find their place here, and have a smooth transition.

Might I also suggest that a small contribution might be in order.... we all invest in a site when we post, but a small donation can go a long way in building / maintaining a resource we all use and enjoy.


This gives you donating members privileges for one year.This is a yearly donation for WhiteBlaze.net
Your extended privileges include:
• All Google ads are removed
• Can edit your own post for up to 15 days
• Upgrade your PM storage to 200 PM's
• Upload your own custom avatar
• A portion of your donation will go to the ATC
• Waiver the 30 post limit required before posting in the "Selling Used Gear" forum


Send checks or money orders to:
WhiteBlaze
159 Oak Hill Road
Litchfield, Me. 04350
Please included your WhiteBlaze username in with your donation.

QiWiz
10-21-2012, 09:53
I really have liked BPL and have been distraught that they have not found a way to effectively address the spam problem, at least yet, for the forums. The articles are still good. If the WB UL forum here benefits, that will be OK with me, but would not like to see BPL go belly up.

Toli
10-21-2012, 09:56
They still sell subscriptions though... Been a member for years but for the articles, not the forum.

Me too... You are wise 10-K... I go there for the Technical info, here just for the jokes and snarky comments to new members asking questions... OH, and of course Hikerboys Cyber Cafe...

Tipi Walter
10-21-2012, 10:30
I moderate / administer various other topic internet discussion forums. The spammers have gotten more and more savy. I am sure that there are many attempts to infiltrate here (many of them I have reported, and our team here has responded very quickly to!)

At the risk of over-dramatizing things, I know it is hard to watch a forum decline. You invest something of yourself in a 'place' when you choose to post.... and watching that go by the wayside is difficult.

I hope all the BPL refugees find their place here, and have a smooth transition.

Might I also suggest that a small contribution might be in order.... we all invest in a site when we post, but a small donation can go a long way in building / maintaining a resource we all use and enjoy.

I made a donation to Whiteblaze several months ago and right afterwards my entire series of around 25 trip reports got deleted and lost forever in the bowels of interweb effluvia. In fact, the entire Thread category got deleted and "lost". So, adding cash money to a site is no guarantee that money will help to maintain a resource. Plus, Whiteblaze has gotten bogged down several times with ceaseless spammers too.

Sailing_Faith
10-21-2012, 10:44
Yes, no forum is immune to these guys... using the little "!" (in the triangle) at the bottom of the post to "report spam" makes life as a moderator much more easy.....

There are several spammers who have gotten so clever they actually quote snipets of a conversation from the thread in their posts.... hard to catch and tough to ban since they can look an awful lot alike a legitimate poster.

10-K
10-21-2012, 12:05
Just to be clear - I have been a member of BPL for years primarily for the articles.

I've also been a paying member of WB since 2007.

10-K
10-21-2012, 14:12
I was just over there. Seems ok as far as spam goes though there was a few.

But, to say it is dying is a bit extreme IMO.

Country Roads
10-21-2012, 16:19
I did not renew my subscription this year. There are other places to get the info I need

Lyle
10-21-2012, 16:55
I never joined BPL. They turned me off by requiring payment before you could read virtually anything. No way to judge if it was worthwhile or not. As others have said, plenty of other places to get the same information.

bubonicplay
10-21-2012, 17:49
The problem right now is thier software, its old, outdated. But the people there are great, and the information is the best.

ocourse
10-21-2012, 17:57
So what software are they using?

bubonicplay
10-21-2012, 18:01
Thier forum is outdated, its from like the prehistoric ages.

leaftye
10-21-2012, 18:24
But, to say it is dying is a bit extreme IMO.

Given that they having had any useful changes in response to the spam attacks, and that they rely on memberships to keep their business afloat, I don't think it's extreme, I think it's logical.

Spam attacks have been going on for the last year that I recall. It's become especially bad in the last couple weeks, and even more so in the last week.

The ONLY change is a script that deletes the posts of the spammer, but also makes the threads containing spam invisible. The change also seems to allow the spammer to continue spamming while banned.

Subscribers get 2 benefits of membership, primarily.

1. Access to articles.
2. Ability to start Gear Swap threads.

The second benefit goes away if the sale ad is spammed unless the subscriber is technically proficient and persistent enough to keep bringing their threads back.

All members, including guests, benefit from having online conversations. Unfortunately those are disappearing too. What's the point of having a lengthy online conversation when it can disappear once or twice a day?

There is no reason to believe these attacks are going to stop. I don't see why membership will continue when the spam is dominating the forum during and after the attacks. I also don't believe Ryan Jordan cares enough about BPL to operate it in the red if membership does indeed decline.

10-K
10-21-2012, 18:41
We'll see. It didn't look that bad when I checked in today. I saw a few spam posts but lots of good threads and info that are current and active.

I like the articles, which is why I renew my subscription so the forum going away would rate an "oh well" from me.

leaftye
10-21-2012, 18:49
Just bumped a thread to make it visible again, and then another spam attack started. Most of my posts there now are to make threads visible again.

I can understand you not caring about the forum, but I believe the subscriptions will go away without the forum. Partly because members want to post in Gear Swap, partly because they want to support the forum, and partly because members and guests are made aware of the articles because of the forum.

leaftye
10-21-2012, 18:52
Here's an example. The username of the spammer has been changed by Roger, the moderator, to "SPAM". I believe this is an indication that the spammer has been banned, and this has somewhat been confirmed. Why is this banned spammer still able to post?

http://i.imgur.com/VJs8M.png

leaftye
10-21-2012, 18:53
In any case, I hope Whiteblaze is preemptively learning from BPL how NOT to respond to spam because I'd hate to lose both forums.

jakedatc
10-21-2012, 18:53
New threads just created didnt last more than a few hours without being spammed. it's a ****show.. I showed a friend in the computer industry the site a while ago and he laughed at how old the software was..

Ryan makes money on his guided classes.. not on BPL or probably even his blog. if BPL goes down I don't think it hurts him.

The real loss is the scattering of people with information. many cottage industry owners post and respond to questions on there. I think the concentration of people with a similar mindset is helpful in letting newer people believe in the methods. Going light and even ultralight is not that hard if you believe in your system and WHY it works. gear lists are one thing.. but technique and instruction on how/when to use stuff goes even further.

10-K
10-21-2012, 18:57
Sounds like an opportunity for someone to step in and fill the void.

leaftye
10-21-2012, 18:59
Sounds like an opportunity for someone to step in and fill the void.

I can only hope. This is the right time for it.

Oh yeah, since you value the articles, you might want to print or save them. I like CutePDF for printing off virtual copies. You can save pages individually, or append everything into a single file...which is faster.

Cadenza
10-21-2012, 20:01
I own, manage, and maintain a forum with a different subject matter.
The big difference is that I have to know each person who registers and they have to register with their real name. I then manually approve them as members.

Last year I was being swamped with spammers trying to register.
Of course they didn't know the rules, always tried to register with weird code names, and were easy to spot.
There were a very few that actually managed to approve their own registrations.
I would just log in to the admin control panel daily and delete them all, but I had to stay up on it at least daily.

Several months ago the forum software had an update and the problem came to an abrupt halt.
I haven't had a single fraudulent registration since the update on the IPB software.

LDog
10-21-2012, 21:05
Just to be clear - I have been a member of BPL for years primarily for the articles.

Jeesh! How many times have we heard this line? Like you don't go over their to look at the gear porn ....

10-K
10-21-2012, 21:22
Jeesh! How many times have we heard this line? Like you don't go over their to look at the gear porn ....

Seriously... I did check out the gear swap forum from time to time but you could do a search on my username and wouldn't find 10 messages from me in all the years I've been a member.

leaftye
10-22-2012, 00:38
As expected, a bone headed move. Instead of even trying to add another moderator at zero cost, Ryan has...well, read on.


In recent days, backpackinglight.com, along with forums across the internet during the same time, has been hit with an automated forum spam attack from newly upgraded spamming software that is becoming increasingly sophisticated at circumventing anti-bot measures. The attacks on backpackinglight.com resulted in a level of spam that makes it nearly impossible to moderate manually with human moderators.
Consequently, we will be limiting forum postings and the creation of new threads to members only (M or MLIFE).

This is intended to be a short term change in policy while we evaluate a number of options as we move forward. One of the options we will evaluate is whether or not to maintain this restriction indefinitely, or at least until we are able to upgrade to new forum software.

My hope with this change in policy is that our forums will return to a very high level of quality, even at the sacrifice of some quantity from those users who have contributed in the past but have not been members of our website. To those of you specifically, I'm grateful for your contributions and will continue to explore options that allow for your participation in the future.

We will continue to make the forums publicly available so that the rich resource here can be read by the public.

I wanted to thank Roger Caffin for being an incredibly patient and persistent moderator during this time. Roger did a terrific job of keeping the impacts of the attacks to a minimum, of keeping me and our web developer informed, and working with our web developer to create tools for helping us efficiently deal with large quantities of spam.

Thanks for your patience with the spammers and with us this past week.

FamilyGuy
10-22-2012, 01:10
As expected, a bone headed move. Instead of even trying to add another moderator at zero cost, Ryan has...well, read on.

[/FONT][/COLOR]

you were offering to help them as well. I let my membership lapse a few days ago after 6 years. Now I can't post in the forums. This is comical.

leaftye
10-22-2012, 01:46
I didn't actually volunteer to moderate or provide technical assistance. All I did was make some threads reappear and try to pressure them to do something to make things better. Instead Ryan found a solution that's worse. In any case, if Ryan has been paying attention to my posts, he probably wouldn't want my help because I accused him of lacking the technical prowess to stop spam, much less ensure the security of my account and payment information. At that time I said I would not consider renewing my membership unless I could pay via Paypal or some other intermediary.

Okay, he did stop spam. So if we're going to be literal, I was wrong.

leaftye
10-22-2012, 01:47
I will note that although I didn't volunteer to moderate, several others did.

Don H
10-22-2012, 08:32
I was using BPLs Forum to exchange ideas on Philmont Scout Ranch, they have forum specifically for that.
Too bad, it was the only place I could get real answers.

jakedatc
10-22-2012, 09:36
They could have just shut down new registrations.... but no. another attempt to get more people to sign up for memberships... i highly doubt limiting Gear swap did much and this will have even less effect.. sad that a guy so smart in one field is so inept in another.

dzierzak
10-22-2012, 12:10
I was using BPLs Forum to exchange ideas on Philmont Scout Ranch, they have forum specifically for that.
Too bad, it was the only place I could get real answers.

I, too, enjoyed the informaton on Philmont. Another place is philmontforum.com

Ed Dzierzak

10-K
10-22-2012, 12:18
They could have just shut down new registrations.... but no. another attempt to get more people to sign up for memberships... i highly doubt limiting Gear swap did much and this will have even less effect.. sad that a guy so smart in one field is so inept in another.

Everything has a lifespan. The end of something is seldom neat and clean.

Do you think WB will be here in 20 years?

atmilkman
10-22-2012, 12:25
Everything has a lifespan. The end of something is seldom neat and clean.

Do you think WB will be here in 20 years?
By then it will be BlueHairBlaze.

max patch
10-22-2012, 12:33
Everything has a lifespan. The end of something is seldom neat and clean.

Do you think WB will be here in 20 years?

Yes, assuming internet forums are still around which is really the big unknown. Someone new will take over when Troll is ready to give it up. Trailplace has had 3 different owners in the last 5 years or so.

Violent Green
10-22-2012, 12:48
They could have just shut down new registrations.... but no. another attempt to get more people to sign up for memberships... i highly doubt limiting Gear swap did much and this will have even less effect.. sad that a guy so smart in one field is so inept in another.

I couldn't have said it any better Jake. Someone needs to take that site over who has business acumen and a desire to deliver a superior product.

Ryan

FamilyGuy
10-22-2012, 13:38
Yes, assuming internet forums are still around which is really the big unknown. Someone new will take over when Troll is ready to give it up. Trailplace has had 3 different owners in the last 5 years or so.

BPL was sold a few years ago by Ryan. Then it was bought back, essentially by leveraged buyout in using the funds from Life Members ($100 a pop) who were promised much but had very little delivered.

deadbox
10-22-2012, 15:09
The worst part about the current direction being taken at BPL is that a large percentage of the people who make valuable contributions to the forums are not paying members and have no desire to pay money simply to participate in open discussions. This will inevitably lead to less meaningful discussion, further reducing the value of the site. I certainly hope that another venue to blocking spam is pursued post haste before valuable members of the BPL community permanently “move on”.

leaftye
10-22-2012, 17:10
I certainly hope that another venue to blocking spam is pursued post haste before valuable members of the BPL community permanently “move on”.

Several of us have been strongly suggesting over the last year that more moderators should be added. If insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results, then it could be said that BPL was insane to expect the spam issue to go away by doing absolutely nothing different to address the problem. Had Ryan allowed at least a second moderator to be added, BPL might not be such a favored target for spammers.

Adding more moderators certainly isn't the end-all for spam, but it's free and easy, and the logical stop gap measure until more expensive and technical solutions can be implemented. Ryan's stop gap measure is to destroy BPL before a more expensive and technical solution can be implemented. If BPL has any chance of surviving, it'll only be if no other good alternative ultralight backpacking site starts gaining any momentum whatsoever.

LDog
10-22-2012, 17:35
Seems to me, another solution is for those who believe that bpl provides a valuable service to pay for privilege of utilizing that service. I shake my head at those whining about a degradation in services to those who suck off the teat without ponying up for it.

jakedatc
10-22-2012, 17:58
The membership is for the articles. I don't care about most of what is in the articles and could probably find a blog like Andrew's, Hendrik's, etc that would have similar. Having a forum to discuss and ask questions and share info is far more useful and has been ignored by Ryan for quite a while. Just the fact that he uses a software so outdated it is laughable is proof of that. the search function is unusable, no quote function, HTML needed for imbedding links and linked photos

In all forums the content and contributors are the valuable asset.. he ignores and dismisses that, that is why BPL is going down the drain.

spending money to help was the mistake of the people who paid for MLife's last time... i highly doubt they will get that support again.

leaftye
10-22-2012, 18:03
Seems to me, another solution is for those who believe that bpl provides a valuable service to pay for privilege of utilizing that service. I shake my head at those whining about a degradation in services to those who suck off the teat without ponying up for it.

I think that's another example of insanity. Many people have paid, including some that no longer pay. Some have paid for a lifetime. What has Ryan Jordan done differently to show for it? He restricted Gear Swap, added ads to the forum, closed down the gear shop, didn't find a temporary replacement for Addie, he didn't add another free moderator, and he effectively banned anyone that isn't currently paying. In all but one way, members are getting less for their money.

I strongly disagree that anyone should pay for a continually degrading service and magically hope it gets better. That's insane.

I've already mentioned on BPL and here that I don't trust Ryan. That I would absolutely not pay him for a membership in a way that gives him access to my payment information, and that a payment service like Paypal is mandatory. I don't trust a website operator that can't remotely grasp how to address spam to be able to securely handle my payment information. Will Ryan make that change? Probably not, especially since it's a logical move and also because it might cost him 3%. Nevermind that it might draw more members.

As others have said in the thread I linked to, the forums are a way to draw people towards membership. Now more than ever, the primary benefit of membership is access to the articles. I doubt very many would have paid for access to the articles if it wasn't for the forum.

leaftye
10-22-2012, 18:09
spending money to help was the mistake of the people who paid for MLife's last time... i highly doubt they will get that support again.

Exactly. Extra memberships paid for a degradation of services. Every indication is that service will degrade further. Trying the same thing again is insanity. It'd be better to withhold payment and force Ryan to earn memberships. It's a business after all, not a charity. Some people seem to forget that.

jakedatc
10-22-2012, 18:16
http://ryanjordan.com/guiding-services-inquiry/

where Ryan gets his actual money... when you're getting 600 bucks a day to hike... you're not worried about losing a few hundred bucks of membership fees

staehpj1
10-26-2012, 08:02
I was saddened to read this. I am not interested in paying to use the BPL forums, so my only choice is to say goodbye to them.

10-K
10-26-2012, 08:23
Who knows....

Burnout is real and maybe he's just tired of messing with it and all the attendant space that it takes up in his head.

If the BPL forums stop the world will still spin and if there is a need something will come along and take its place. But know that it won't last forever either.

Nothing stays great forever.

Lyle
10-26-2012, 08:32
I just looked over his website. WOW! What a way to turn something simple and enjoyable into ridiculously expensive and complicated BS. People actually pay $25 / month to get a few blog posts from this guy?

Couldn't agree with LW more in this case - It's ONLY walking! Whole site appears to be one rip-off after another.

Tipi Walter
10-26-2012, 08:49
A forum that charges cash money is crazy since forum members are offering their knowledge and experience into the forum. In fact, it should be the opposite---forum members should get paid for their advice and suggestions and not have to pay to offer their knowledge. I'm an UltraLoader anyway so the whole ultralight hysteria isn't important to me and I can deep six BPL. There's only a limited amount of tolerance I have for reading about CT microburst or the NeoAir Xlite or silica fabric or SUL or the latest drooling fascination over cuben fabrics.

Malto
10-26-2012, 08:55
A forum that charges cash money is crazy since forum members are offering their knowledge and experience into the forum. In fact, it should be the opposite---forum members should get paid for their advice and suggestions and not have to pay to offer their knowledge. I'm an UltraLoader anyway so the whole ultralight hysteria isn't important to me and I can deep six BPL. There's only a limited amount of tolerance I have for reading about CT microburst or the NeoAir Xlite or silica fabric or SUL or the latest drooling fascination over cuben fabrics.

I had to laugh at your post. I agree with losing interest in the endless talk of gear but I finally went out and ordered my first gear in 18 months. Ironically it was a CT microburst, an xterm (almost the xlite) and three yards of cuben fiber to make a vbl/rain suit. You pretty much hit all three!

WingedMonkey
10-26-2012, 09:41
Don't know nothing about the site, I might hit it occasionally while searching for something.

My question is, does the site have a place on it for the complaints like those that have been made here?

Rasty
10-26-2012, 09:52
Don't know nothing about the site, I might hit it occasionally while searching for something.

My question is, does the site have a place on it for the complaints like those that have been made here?

I think it does, but it now cost $25 per month to post according to Lyle in post #52

Malto
10-26-2012, 10:03
There have been dozen of threads on BPL complaining about various practices. It's pretty much a dead horse.

jakedatc
10-26-2012, 10:14
Don't know nothing about the site, I might hit it occasionally while searching for something.

My question is, does the site have a place on it for the complaints like those that have been made here?

There were many threads of complaints. many suggestions for spam control, including offers by web savvy people to do code. many offers to help moderate spam. all ignored and it was shuttered up.

Ryan promised "new forum software" this year... uhh.. last year. didn't happen. he hasn't posted in more than a few threads in months and never in ones involving complaints.

he promised MLife people many things that apparently never went through when he begged for $ last time.

It is sad because BPL got me back into backpacking and dropped my pack from 25-30 for a weekend to 25 for a week with more room for improvement.

Rasty
10-26-2012, 10:22
We are seeing some new old members here though. Maybe something new to learn for everyone.

How can WB benefit from this? Maybe a SUL forum. Any thoughts?

HermesUL
10-26-2012, 10:23
BPL has lost me for sure. I've been a member for 3 months now, and have learned a lot and shared a lot of valuable information. There is every indication that, on net, I improved the quality of the information on the forum.

I also had every intention of purchasing an MLife membership. However, I was not able to fork over the $100+ right away, because I'm a college kid and don't exactly have piles of money sitting around. I figured that I was best off spending money on a thru-hike and paying BPL back later down the road. It was a great place and I didn't mind the ripoff.

When they closed off their forums, they lost me. I haven't visited in days, on the hope that the traffic decrease of all the non-members will be a clue to them that they're shooting themselves in the foot. It's quite obviously a money grabbing effort to solve a problem that could easily be taken care of in other ways with simple forum adjustments. I don't see how they're ever hoping to make money on a scheme which makes it so they'll never get new registrations.

I can easily envision Whiteblaze being a place that new people go looking for gear advice, especially on the joys of lightweight backpacking. It's not the mine of information that BPL is, but it has the potential to be so.

10-K
10-26-2012, 10:40
Unless something drastically changed it's $25 a year not month.

Rasty
10-26-2012, 10:57
Unless something drastically changed it's $25 a year not month.

OK that's not unreasonable!

cmich
10-26-2012, 11:12
It is sad to see BPL going down the drain, I have gained a lot of valuable information off the forums there (all for free!). Hoping the UL section here starts to pick up a bit.

SouthMark
10-26-2012, 11:32
I think it does, but it now cost $25 per month to post according to Lyle in post #52

I am and have been a member of BPL for about 6 years. The $25 a month is news to me. I pay $19.99 a year but that is for access to articles. Posts have always been free to guests. There was recent talk about initiating a $10 per post for guest members only until the *spam* problem has been solved but at present forum postings and starting new threads is limited to present members. This is a TEMPORARY FIX while BPL works out how to handle the problem.

SouthMark
10-26-2012, 11:39
The $25 a month does not pertain to BPL. It is part of Ryan Jordon's personal BLOG. It is the subscription price for a couple of his newsletters. BPL is still just $19.99 a year.

SouthMark
10-26-2012, 11:44
The $25 a month does not pertain to BPL. It is part of Ryan Jordon's personal BLOG. It is the subscription price for a couple of his newsletters. BPL is still just $19.99 a year.

My bad, that's $19.99 per year for present members renewal. It is $24.99 per month for new members.

Ewker
10-26-2012, 12:00
My bad, that's $19.99 per year for present members renewal. It is $24.99 per month for new members.

I got a free membership last yr and this yr I could get the renewal for the $ 19.99. It took me yrs to decide that I wanted to join it. There is a lot of good information on the site esp if you want to go UL.

10-K
10-26-2012, 12:07
My bad, that's $19.99 per year for present members renewal. It is $24.99 per month for new members.

Wow... I'm all about support but $300 a year is too much for me.

Or as a present member does that mean I can continue to renew for $19.99 a year - which is a fair price.

The forum antics isn't high up on my list - I like the articles.

jakedatc
10-26-2012, 12:21
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/bpl_subscriptions.html

25/year for new members.. 20/year for renewal. i don't know where they are getting the /per month thing but i'm not seeing it.

basically, if you want to read more than 5 of the non-free articles then it works out. if not then I wouldn't bother. MLife does not seem to have any actual added benefits

Violent Green
10-26-2012, 12:51
If BPL shut down tomorrow, I don't think Whiteblaze would see much of an increase in traffic honestly. Probably 80% of the BPL posters live in the Western half of the US and aren't very interested in the AT or eastern trails. Who knows though. They will get the Spam straightened out at some point, and if they put out strong, technical articles the people will continue to be there.

Ryan

Violent Green
10-26-2012, 12:53
P.S. - The membership there is yearly, not monthly just so everyone is on the same page.

Ryan

10-K
10-26-2012, 13:11
If BPL shut down tomorrow, I don't think Whiteblaze would see much of an increase in traffic honestly. Probably 80% of the BPL posters live in the Western half of the US and aren't very interested in the AT or eastern trails. Who knows though. They will get the Spam straightened out at some point, and if they put out strong, technical articles the people will continue to be there.

Ryan

I agree. It's a different bunch with some overlap.

Don H
10-26-2012, 14:25
if they put out strong, technical articles the people will continue to be there.

I was a member of BPL a few years ago. Good articles and they sold some items that were hard to find elsewhere. Then they stopped selling stuff, the articles went downhill and now I can't post. Too bad, I'd pay if I thought the site was going to survive.

SouthMark
10-26-2012, 14:30
Wow... I'm all about support but $300 a year is too much for me.

Or as a present member does that mean I can continue to renew for $19.99 a year - which is a fair price.

The forum antics isn't high up on my list - I like the articles.

Thanks 10K, my double bad. I meant $24.99 a year.

Lyle
10-26-2012, 16:46
Unless something drastically changed it's $25 a year not month.

The website has completely changed since I looked at it. The old one offered a couple of different blogs in which Ryan participated. They cost $25/month. The one I remember off hand discussed gear design and had limited membership because of the interaction. I no longer see them offered on the site.

Tipi Walter
10-26-2012, 16:57
I am and have been a member of BPL for about 6 years. The $25 a month is news to me. I pay $19.99 a year but that is for access to articles. Posts have always been free to guests. There was recent talk about initiating a $10 per post for guest members only until the *spam* problem has been solved but at present forum postings and starting new threads is limited to present members. This is a TEMPORARY FIX while BPL works out how to handle the problem.

$10 per post? If this happened at Whiteblaze it would have cost me 3,500 post X $10=$35,000.

traildust
10-26-2012, 17:08
Facebook and other social media have got to be taking a chunk out of all Forums. Will be interesting to see what forums survive in the next five years as social media swells and eats up more and more of folks online time. Then there are the individual blogs - webpages etc.... Forums will have to find a way to compete or become a place for ...... well Lone Wolf.

leaftye
10-26-2012, 18:29
Facebook and other social media have got to be taking a chunk out of all Forums.

I hate FB and Twitter because it doesn't preserve information and make them easily accessible like forums do. Sadly, forums may decline in favor of mediocre mediums like FB and Twitter, much like texting has replaced a significant portion of instant messaging and email.

It seems an ADD society prefers their social mediums to have a similar handicap.

SouthMark
10-26-2012, 18:53
Facebook and other social media have got to be taking a chunk out of all Forums. Will be interesting to see what forums survive in the next five years as social media swells and eats up more and more of folks online time. Then there are the individual blogs - webpages etc.... Forums will have to find a way to compete or become a place for ...... well Lone Wolf.

It was only proposed that there be a $10 per post for unregistered guests, not members, until the SPAM problem is solved. As you are a member here Tipi, it would not cost you a dime. Instead it was decided to allow only posts by members until the problem is solved. I really have enjoyed the BPL forums, a lot of good info from some very good members. Their Gear Swap is really good. I have scored a lot of great gear there at super prices.

SouthMark
10-26-2012, 19:05
It was only proposed that there be a $10 per post for unregistered guests, not members, until the SPAM problem is solved. As you are a member here Tipi, it would not cost you a dime. Instead it was decided to allow only posts by members until the problem is solved. I really have enjoyed the BPL forums, a lot of good info from some very good members. Their Gear Swap is really good. I have scored a lot of great gear there at super prices.

Need to change glasses. Did not mean to quote trail dust. This was in responce to Tipi's post #76.

Tipi Walter
10-26-2012, 20:37
It was only proposed that there be a $10 per post for unregistered guests, not members, until the SPAM problem is solved. As you are a member here Tipi, it would not cost you a dime. Instead it was decided to allow only posts by members until the problem is solved. I really have enjoyed the BPL forums, a lot of good info from some very good members. Their Gear Swap is really good. I have scored a lot of great gear there at super prices.

A membership here on Whiteblaze is free.

RockDoc
10-26-2012, 21:44
I belonged to BPL for a year to read the articles, but was quite disappointed and did not renew.

I found the forum at BPL rather unfriendly, full of toxic attacks.
As if that doesn't happen here too...

leaftye
10-26-2012, 23:37
A membership here on Whiteblaze is free.

It sure is. I might donate anyway, especially since I can sell items here without being a paying member. I'm thinking about selling a NF Nuptse and splitting the proceeds between a donation to the PCTA and this site. Chances are good that you already know I haven't hiked the AT and have no intention to. I just like this site because of the a long distance hiking community.


I belonged to BPL for a year to read the articles, but was quite disappointed and did not renew.

I found the forum at BPL rather unfriendly, full of toxic attacks.
As if that doesn't happen here too...

I did too. That membership was when their gear store was still open. I might have renewed my subscription if they did more myog articles, but it's mostly gear testing. I don't find that meaningful because I've already come close to my ideal setup. I only would have signed up for MLIFE is I thought the site had a chance of sticking around, but aside from the articles, it's been in decline. (1) The gear shop closed. (2) Gear Swap threads could only be posted by paying members. (3) Ads were introduced to the forums. (4) The handling of spam could not and would not be improved after numerous threads full of pleading, suggestions and volunteering.

I also noticed the toxic nature of BPL. It's like some people thought they were elite because they donated a mere $25. I'm not petty enough to pay for standing. If a site wants my money, they'll earn it.

BrianLe
10-28-2012, 11:11
I just checked BPL and non-members are still locked out of posting on forums --- it's been a week now.
I've not re-read all of this long thread, so forgive me if this is redundant, but Ryan posted this morning saying:

"We will be installing a low-fee forum subscription that will allow users to post. When that happens, all users who were registered forum participants prior to the lockdown will be grandfathered in with a new subscription at no cost. I can't tell you when this will happen, but this is the short term solution, and would occur in a matter of 2 weeks perhaps."

Since I was a registered forum participant prior to the lockdown, that suits me (unless and until my no cost new subscription expires), but I'm really disinclined to pay to participate in forums. Here it's a donation --- I like that approach a lot.

OTOH, I do understand their logic that a very low fee will hopefully drive off at least most spammers who get paid quite a low amount per large number of spam messages posted. I'm not knowledgeable enough to know how good an approach that is, but I do understand it. From my perspective, I like to think that if anything I'm adding value to the site (I admit that's subjective and arguable! :-)) by participating in forums, and am thus not willing to pay to do so.

Pragmatically, if it takes too long to let me back in, I will perhaps just get out of the habit of going there.

Forgive me for laying out my thoughts on this here, but ... only paying members can currently post there!

jakedatc
10-28-2012, 11:35
Yep, just saw that too Brian. Getting out of the habit of clicking is fairly easy after a while. It doesn't seem like they are in any hurry to get things back on track and once again their only temporary solution is to charge people money for the "privilege" of adding content to their site.

Other great spots for backpacking info.

http://guthook.blogspot.com/

http://andrewskurka.com/how-to/

http://ultralightbackpackintips.blogspot.com/

http://adventuresinstoving.blogspot.com/

russb
10-28-2012, 14:03
Never joined BPL. sometimes I read stuff on the forums, but I always found that Roger guy to be a condescending a$%. If it disappeared I wouldn't notice nor miss it. Brian, you add value over at backpacking.net (I am am member there.)

leaftye
11-02-2012, 23:43
I've only been back there to virtually print many of the threads I've participated in and a few other threads.

I also like watching trailspace for their OR show reports.
http://www.trailspace.com/blog/outdoor-retailer/

BrianLe
11-13-2012, 15:35
It looks like they have a resolution of sorts. They have a scheme where you can be a "forum member". Benefits are exactly the same as a "free account", except that you're allowed to post. This costs you $4.99 a year.
Here's the new pricing scheme:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/bpl_subscriptions.html

That's not much, but I would refuse to pay it; I think that this was the wrong approach to deal with a spam outbreak.

However --- they've grandfathered in everyone who was registered as a free member prior to the "lockdown". When I look in my 'account' details, I find that I have a "Forum Access Subscription (INDIVIDUAL) Membership" that expires November 11, 3011. So I'm good for the next thousand years there; ought to be enough, I don't see myself doing that much backpacking by then.

So I'll start looking around there again; I hadn't even been looking at their forums as I found it a bit frustrating to read a thread that I had something to say about and not be able to post. Over time it will be interesting to (try to) see if the loss of potential new forum contributors degrades the quality of their forum overall. For a looking at things from a cutting edge UL perspective and for just a willingness to dig into details and really understand things in depth, the forum has offered a lot in the past.

skinewmexico
11-13-2012, 16:10
Wow. I've never found the BPL forums to be toxic, as long as I stayed out of chaff. and even there, it's usually long term members going at each other. Want to talk toxic, the Backpacker forum wrote the book on that. Members banned, backpacking business owners starting flame wars, they used to have it all. I've completely changed my kit based on advice found on BPL. If I relied totally on WB, I'd probably still be carrying a 5# pack and 6# tent, 'cuz otherwise I'd die.

jakedatc
11-13-2012, 16:14
Yep, definitely the wrong approach, but what else is new there. I do not see many people paying 5 bucks to post on a forum that should be free. lots of MLifers have been talking a lot of crap about how "5 bucks is nothing blah blah" I am happy I found the site to lighten my pack and meet a few people but it has always had an elitist feel from the "members and Mlifers" just the fact that normal posters are categorized as "guests" is proof enough.

also doesn't change the fact that the whole board infrastructure is from like 1994 and the search function is less useful than a 4 year old with a set of encyclopedias. the complaints go back for years asking for better platforms and response in promises for improvements... which have never shown up.

every time i consider posting there I think that it is just positive reinforcement that they are doing something right and change my mind.

Sly
11-13-2012, 18:21
In any case, I hope Whiteblaze is preemptively learning from BPL how NOT to respond to spam because I'd hate to lose both forums.

If you report the posts an email is sent to the mod of the forum. I think most mods check their email at least once a say, but depending on the time of day, it may be up to 24 hours before the posts get deleted.

Don H
11-13-2012, 18:31
Hmmm, now I can read but not post, I don't think that works for me. After 10 years I'll say goodbye.

Sly
11-13-2012, 18:39
If BPL shut down tomorrow, I don't think Whiteblaze would see much of an increase in traffic honestly. Probably 80% of the BPL posters live in the Western half of the US and aren't very interested in the AT or eastern trails. Who knows though. They will get the Spam straightened out at some point, and if they put out strong, technical articles the people will continue to be there.

Ryan

While Whiteblaze may be AT centric, as you probably well know, there's a host of other forums and an article section which could be expanded to meet demand.

Wise Old Owl
11-13-2012, 19:25
Yep, just saw that too Brian. Getting out of the habit of clicking is fairly easy after a while. It doesn't seem like they are in any hurry to get things back on track and once again their only temporary solution is to charge people money for the "privilege" of adding content to their site.

Other great spots for backpacking info.

http://guthook.blogspot.com/

http://andrewskurka.com/how-to/

http://ultralightbackpackintips.blogspot.com/

http://adventuresinstoving.blogspot.com/


thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wise Old Owl
11-13-2012, 19:48
While Whiteblaze may be AT centric, as you probably well know, there's a host of other forums and an article section which could be expanded to meet demand.

So there's something wrong with advertising... we have their trail here.... invitations.... etc.

Del Q
11-13-2012, 20:08
Not to slam BPL, I signed up for a year, paid the $$$, a few months later I could not open the articles, just received an e mail yesterday with their membership options, the articles are really thorough and well written, guess that I am "gun shy" / lack of confidence.

Deleted the e mail..........

Violent Green
11-13-2012, 21:34
While Whiteblaze may be AT centric, as you probably well know, there's a host of other forums and an article section which could be expanded to meet demand.

I'm skeptical, but it's certainly possible. Now would be the time if WB has any intention of doing so.

Ryan

Rasty
11-13-2012, 21:37
I'm skeptical, but it's certainly possible. Now would be the time if WB has any intention of doing so.

Ryan

Maybe it's time to ask! What can be added?

perrito
11-13-2012, 21:45
Perhaps a lightweight specific section.

Rasty
11-13-2012, 21:49
Perhaps a lightweight specific section.

Something like the Ultra-Light Hikers Forum? or something different?

cabbagehead
11-13-2012, 22:54
BPL has the worst customer service. I sent them a message regarding product testing, and I got a message saying that my message was taken care of. The sight isn't user friendly. It's like comparing myspace (not user friendly) to facebook (user friendly).

cabbagehead
11-13-2012, 23:22
Perhaps the Ultralight sub-forum here will see more traffic.

There's plenty of information on lightweight gear that's not in the ultralight forum. You just create a thread, say what you're looking for, and you quickly get a lot of opinions.

For any trip, you just need stuff that directly or indirectly gets you the following:

food, water, protection from the elements, protection from animals (bugs), an adequate amount of sanitation, financial stuff, navigation
optional: the ability to handle a medical emergency

What do you need to get food before you run out? answer: shoes, etc.

jakedatc
11-14-2012, 00:06
True, But when focused in the Ultralight forum the responses will be a lot more relevant to someone going lighter. The responses outside of the UL forum on this site tend to be pretty heavy in general and insanely heavy in some peoples minds. ie some folks think a 4lb pack is light... when I consider anything over 2lb to be way too heavy.

I learned a LOT at BPL.. and I think WB would benefit having UL as a goal or at least alternative instead of a fringe idea. myths keep coming up that it is dangerous, uncomfortable and expensive and that is generally not true.

Sly
11-14-2012, 00:24
True, But when focused in the Ultralight forum the responses will be a lot more relevant to someone going lighter. The responses outside of the UL forum on this site tend to be pretty heavy in general and insanely heavy in some peoples minds. ie some folks think a 4lb pack is light... when I consider anything over 2lb to be way too heavy.

I learned a LOT at BPL.. and I think WB would benefit having UL as a goal or at least alternative instead of a fringe idea. myths keep coming up that it is dangerous, uncomfortable and expensive and that is generally not true.

There already is a ultra light hiking forum. I think it would be easy enough to create several sub-forums. Have any suggestions?

As far as getting more participation, I don't think advertising, other than word of mouth is needed, and a few that want to seriously spread the word, wisdom, technique.

jakedatc
11-14-2012, 00:27
I know. I was saying that posting in that forum instead of in General or Gear focuses the responses to a lightweight mentality.

I don't think it needs sub forums.. just more traffic.

skinewmexico
11-14-2012, 00:39
Perhaps a lightweight specific section.

Already have a UL forum, where people go to argue that if you go UL, you'll die.

Mags
11-14-2012, 10:10
Already have a UL forum, where people go to argue that if you go UL, you'll die.

Or told you are not doing it right. :)

inaffably
11-14-2012, 10:52
it is? I have to check that out!

Rasty
11-14-2012, 10:53
Or told you are not doing it right. :)

Your not doing it right. I don't have any idea what it is you are doing but it's wrong and you will die eventually!:)

leaftye
11-14-2012, 19:55
There already is a ultra light hiking forum. I think it would be easy enough to create several sub-forums. Have any suggestions?

That's good to hear that you're willing to expand it if there's a need.

perrito
11-15-2012, 00:07
The term "ultralight" is overused and often misused. It's a buzzword now. It simply means that your base weight is 10 pounds or less. Some companies market their products as ultralight, but that's marketing for you. Many are turned off by the term, associating it with anal gram weenies.
What ever happened to calling things lightweight, i.e. sub 20 lbs. base weight? That's what the vast majority of us are these days.
I think that a new forum could be created and that the current UL forum could be a subforum under it.
Just my 2 cents..

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