View Full Version : Best Gear Fallacy
My ramblings (rantings?) about the best gear questions... :)
Which gear is the best? A common question asked on many online forums, websites and during Q&A for presentation is "What Whatchamahoosey is the best?" The true answer: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS THE BEST GEAR ! http://www.pmags.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif
Obviously WB inspired... ;)
http://www.pmags.com/best-gear-fallacy
hikerboy57
10-31-2012, 22:59
wait a minute. i thought i had the best gear
Obviously WB inspired... ;)
Obviously. Hopefully people will ask themselves these kinds of questions and share the answers before asking for "the best". Especially in the straight forward sub-forum.
ChinMusic
10-31-2012, 23:45
Gotta talk about gear on WB and get it out of my system. NO ONE wants to talk about gear once you are on the trail for very long.
turtle fast
10-31-2012, 23:51
I would not say that a piece of gear "is the best" because every ones budget, hiking styles, and personal preferences differ. Now I would say that equipment DO differ in terms of quality of construction. But here too for some hikers whom many times poorer quality items are cheaper and it is perfectly acceptable for some as it is seen as quasi disposable or the week long hike is all they will do and as long as that particular cheap item lasts that long it works for them.
Obviously. Hopefully people will ask themselves these kinds of questions and share the answers before asking for "the best". Especially in the straight forward sub-forum.
..and, more importantly, saying that their way is THE BEST when offering advice. :O
My gear is the BEST and it remains so till I change to something even bester
Well done, sir. The official phrase for what you are describing is "the subjective theory of value (http://wiki.mises.org/wiki/Subjective_theory_of_value)," a foundational principle of economic reasoning.
skinewmexico
11-01-2012, 10:29
I just try to have the best time.
bigcranky
11-01-2012, 10:46
You are forgetting your own rule, Mags!
HMHDI (http://www.pmags.com/hike-my-hike-damn-it-hmhdi).
swjohnsey
11-01-2012, 10:58
Folks seldom end up with the best of anything, not the best car, not the best computer, not the best guitar. What we discuss is good gear versus bad gear. Sometimes you pay more for less. Sometimes high dollar gear is just not appropriate for a thru-hike.
garlic08
11-01-2012, 11:06
My short reply to that question: If one thing was 'the best', there would only be one thing.
Wise Old Owl
11-01-2012, 11:48
Having a survival kit will help you survive.
You are forgetting your own rule, Mags!
HMHDI (http://www.pmags.com/hike-my-hike-damn-it-hmhdi).
That's what it really comes down to it seems. :D
ChinMusic
11-01-2012, 12:02
What is the best Pringles to take into the field?
Feral Bill
11-01-2012, 12:04
My short reply to that question: If one thing was 'the best', there would only be one thing. Back in the 60s and 70s we came close in some areas. For instance, almost everyone wore 60/40 Parkas and use SVEA or Optimius white gas stoves. Things are more complicated now.
Slo-go'en
11-01-2012, 12:11
At first glance, I thought this thread was titled "Best gear FANTASY", which I guess is almost the same thing.
Function should ALWAYS follow form....cuz, honestly if it doesn't look cool, who cares if it works or how durable it is.
turtle fast
11-01-2012, 12:16
The fallacy is that the much acclaimed "best, greatest, and lightest" gear will be eclipsed by something else in a few short years. Soon we will be hiking in Lycra bodysuits with independent heating/cooling mechanisms. :)
jimmyjam
11-01-2012, 12:56
What is the best Pringles to take into the field?
My vote is for Chedder Cheese.
Odd Man Out
11-01-2012, 13:21
Well done. But it begs the question - Is there a worst gear choice?
What is the best Pringles to take into the field?
Extreme ones. 'Natch!
http://www.pmags.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/EXTREME1-246x300.jpg
Well done. But it begs the question - Is there a worst gear choice?
No..for similar reasons. I would not want to use a rubber rain suit ala the Gorton Fisherman. But for some people who are not hiking much and spending a lot of time in camp, why not? Extreme cold and rainy weather (like, well, the Georges Banks)..maybe? My worst is not your worst. A cotton hoody for insulation is generally considered a bad choice. But how many of us used one in our formative backpacking/hiking years? I know I did. It was all I had at 12 yrs old. Got me out there and ignited a love out the outdoors ever since.
I find out about the "best" choice for a gear item about a week after I've purchased and used the last thing I just bought! I won't return the first piece because there is nothing defective and I won't purchase the new item because the wife will be really mad!
Sour cream and onion for the Pringles is my vote!
Well done. But it begs the question - Is there a worst gear choice?
I believe there are worst gear choices. Most of us have purchased the "Orange Ditty Trowel"
hikerboy57
11-01-2012, 14:05
I find out about the "best" choice for a gear item about a week after I've purchased and used the last thing I just bought! I won't return the first piece because there is nothing defective and I won't purchase the new item because the wife will be really mad!
Sour cream and onion for the Pringles is my vote!
i save the pringles cans, fill em with fritos
jakedatc
11-01-2012, 14:06
Apparently I only need one of these tools for repairs and building things around the house…..
Obviously the hammer...
Original Pringles while hiking.. Ranch at home. be aware if you keep your pringles in your water bottle pocket and you accidentally brush a tree hard enough the top will fly off and you won't realize until your next snack break.... pringles lunch for the win!
Moose2001
11-01-2012, 14:13
I believe there are worst gear choices. Most of us have purchased the "Orange Ditty Trowel"
Hey....I like the Orange Ditty Trowel!
Drybones
11-01-2012, 14:15
If you're happy with what you have, you have the best gear.
Best gear? If you need to ask, you don't have it!
From Garlic :
"My short reply to that question: If one thing was 'the best', there would only be one thing. '
On a slightly more serious note, that is about it.
For 30 years I had customers asking me for the "best" camera . At times I had over 150 different cameras on the shelves, from $20 to $20k.
Oddly the most expensive would have been one of the worst for most...(too heavy, too complicated)
Pringles
11-01-2012, 17:10
What is the best Pringles to take into the field?
Wherever I go, I ALWAYS have Pringles.
Pringles
atmilkman
11-01-2012, 17:16
The best gear is free.
Pringles original for me.
Wise Old Owl
11-01-2012, 18:05
A Knife will remain sharp.
A Knife will remain sharp.
No such thing. Low carbon, high carbon, ceramic, Ginsu, etc. all will dull. It's ease of sharpening and how long it will remain sharp. I find that anything over 84 rockwell hardness is difficult to sharpen by hand with a stone. I have a couple knifes in my chef knife kit that are 86 and 88 and they are a pain to sharpen.
The best fallacy is that there are really garments which are both waterproof and breathable at the same time! ;)
Synthetic sleeping bags are warm when wet.
Wise Old Owl
11-01-2012, 19:01
No such thing. Low carbon, high carbon, ceramic, Ginsu, etc. all will dull. It's ease of sharpening and how long it will remain sharp. I find that anything over 84 rockwell hardness is difficult to sharpen by hand with a stone. I have a couple knifes in my chef knife kit that are 86 and 88 and they are a pain to sharpen.
You did read the title to the thread - or was this the strange humor forum?
A related question is why we love stuff that doesn't love us back.
And then talk about it ad nauseum.
And why the **** I felt compelled to spend $70 on AA flashlight last weekend.
kayak karl
11-01-2012, 19:38
some days "the best" is a roll of duct tape ;)
No such thing. Low carbon, high carbon, ceramic, Ginsu, etc. all will dull. It's ease of sharpening and how long it will remain sharp. I find that anything over 84 rockwell hardness is difficult to sharpen by hand with a stone. I have a couple knifes in my chef knife kit that are 86 and 88 and they are a pain to sharpen.
You did read the title to the thread - or was this the strange humor forum?
I would never read into a thread too much. And there is always room for humor. Every chef likes knives! I have knives that are 20+ years old and are just part of my hand.
"some days "the best" is a roll of duct tape "
That is a good exception.
I can't think of another solo item that can be as useful in so many situations as gaffer/duct tape.
"some days "the best" is a roll of duct tape "
That is a good exception.
I can't think of another solo item that can be as useful in so many situations as gaffer/duct tape.
If you can't duct...ruck it!
(The word I was thinking of starts with a different letter. ;) )
bubonicplay
11-02-2012, 00:27
I agree with people saying that there isnt such thing as best gear, but rather the gear that works the best for you.
There is a best, but it's a very refined and very personal thing. For example, some people would believe the best shelter for them is definitely some type of hammock. For me, it's anything but a hammock.
Back in the 60s and 70s we came close in some areas. For instance, almost everyone wore 60/40 Parkas and use SVEA or Optimius white gas stoves. Things are more complicated now.
and fishnet underwear w/ solid shoulders so that the weight of your pack didn't leave waffle type indentations on your shoulders
I've upgraded my Sierra Designs 60/40 parka But the Svea 123 is still the best stove that I have owned . Once you get the Zen of using it worked out ,it's as reliable as the sunrise
I agree with people saying that there isnt such thing as best gear, but rather the gear that works the best for you.
Four gold stars for this quote.
Tipi Walter
11-05-2012, 11:56
The "best" is usually a consensus of the experts. In the world of music and violin players, Stradivarius is considered the best and also unreachable for most. For professional clarinetists, Buffet is by far the brand used by 95% of the professionals. Then the question becomes, what will a professional do with his set of Buffets? There used to be an expert clarinet repairman named Hans Moennig who had a clarinet shop in Philadelphia and many professionals sent their new Buffets to him first to check them out and upgrade them with his different techniques (cork pads) etc. So, even the best became better.
Sure, some guys played Selmer and Leblanc but no one I knew who was serious played anything but a Buffet. The tool for the job never changed (unless they switched from B-flat to E-flat to A-key clarinets) and the Buffet could handle any and every job, from the Mozart concerto to the Carl Nielsen concerto.
Backpacking gear is mostly a whole different animal. Hikers are too subjective and their trips so different one from the other (also different locales) that no one can proclaim a best pack or a best stove or a best sleeping bag or shelter. But certainly there are limits to this statement. Take mountaineering down parkas. There are only a handful in the world that perform at that level and the list is short---Feathered Friends Rock and Ice parka, PHD parkas (England), Marmot 8000M parka, a couple more. Here again, it hinges on "what do the experts use?" Such extreme environments produce "experts". The Appalachian Trail and backpacking in general across the North American continent does not produce a consensus of experts who can give advice on what's best.
But you could easily research and find what current company is making the highest quality rain jacket or down sleeping bag. You could determine where they get their goose down and what quality it is and their stitching quality and overall bag quality by your own hands-on research and by the concensus of winter backpackers who use these products and write reviews. For instance, the highest quality down bags on the planet currently are made by Valandre, Western Mountaineering and Feathered Friends. Are these bags better than a Campmor down bag? Certainly. To say "No" is absurd, although it's true the Campmor bag could be better for someone for whatever reason, but there's no denying the fact that it's not of the same quality as the other three.
So, "best" is subjective, "highest quality" is not.
So, "best" is subjective, "highest quality" is not.
So is WM or a Feathered Friends the highest quality? :)
You gear wonks on both sides of the aisle are talking too much about gear. It's like a cook who talks about their pots all the time rather than their food. :)
HermesUL
11-05-2012, 13:13
The "best" is usually a consensus of the experts. In the world of music and violin players, Stradivarius is considered the best and also unreachable for most. For professional clarinetists, Buffet is by far the brand used by 95% of the professionals. Then the question becomes, what will a professional do with his set of Buffets? There used to be an expert clarinet repairman named Hans Moennig who had a clarinet shop in Philadelphia and many professionals sent their new Buffets to him first to check them out and upgrade them with his different techniques (cork pads) etc. So, even the best became better.
Sure, some guys played Selmer and Leblanc but no one I knew who was serious played anything but a Buffet. The tool for the job never changed (unless they switched from B-flat to E-flat to A-key clarinets) and the Buffet could handle any and every job, from the Mozart concerto to the Carl Nielsen concerto.
Backpacking gear is mostly a whole different animal. Hikers are too subjective and their trips so different one from the other (also different locales) that no one can proclaim a best pack or a best stove or a best sleeping bag or shelter. But certainly there are limits to this statement. Take mountaineering down parkas. There are only a handful in the world that perform at that level and the list is short---Feathered Friends Rock and Ice parka, PHD parkas (England), Marmot 8000M parka, a couple more. Here again, it hinges on "what do the experts use?" Such extreme environments produce "experts". The Appalachian Trail and backpacking in general across the North American continent does not produce a consensus of experts who can give advice on what's best.
But you could easily research and find what current company is making the highest quality rain jacket or down sleeping bag. You could determine where they get their goose down and what quality it is and their stitching quality and overall bag quality by your own hands-on research and by the concensus of winter backpackers who use these products and write reviews. For instance, the highest quality down bags on the planet currently are made by Valandre, Western Mountaineering and Feathered Friends. Are these bags better than a Campmor down bag? Certainly. To say "No" is absurd, although it's true the Campmor bag could be better for someone for whatever reason, but there's no denying the fact that it's not of the same quality as the other three.
So, "best" is subjective, "highest quality" is not.
I'd disagree. Highest quality is subjective as well, because of the lightweight criterion. There's no perfect balance between light weight and durable materials, so anything is subjective in terms of quality. Also for what it's worth, I can't find anything from the three brands you mentioned that beats the weight of my Golite 1+ season bag. But maybe I'm not looking hard enough.
Tipi Walter
11-05-2012, 13:14
So is WM or a Feathered Friends the highest quality? :)
You gear wonks on both sides of the aisle are missing the point of backpacking.
Which is better, Ferrari or Lamborghini? When a person can narrow quality down to just two as in your example, I'd say that's a very good thing.
No one I know would ever presume to define the point of backpacking. So, no one can therefore miss the point of backpacking, even the gear heads. To them the whole point of backpacking could be gear and testing gear. To you the point of backpacking could be carefully defined and described in intricate blog posts. In other words, to explain the point of backpacking would make us self-appointed idiot-savants, with the emphasis on idiot.
WTo you the point of backpacking could be carefully defined and described in intricate blog posts. In other words, to explain the point of backpacking would make us self-appointed idiot-savants, with the emphasis on idiot.
Last i checked, you are the one who makes multipage posts on what is the correct way to backpack. :) Looks at the mirror (trailjournals.com ) some time...
FWIW, you told the whole world what the best quality is in terms of bags and one person already disagreed with you. ;)
Tipi Walter
11-05-2012, 13:45
I'd disagree. Highest quality is subjective as well, because of the lightweight criterion. There's no perfect balance between light weight and durable materials, so anything is subjective in terms of quality. Also for what it's worth, I can't find anything from the three brands you mentioned that beats the weight of my Golite 1+ season bag. But maybe I'm not looking hard enough.
Generally speaking, the highest quality is also the lightest. Your example of the Golite is strange since it's not even a sleeping bag but a quilt (if you're talking about the ultralite model). Golite won't publish the amount of down they put in their bag/quilt which is probably the most important number of all, but they do say it's rated at 40F. If you look harder there's a WM bag called the Summerlite which is 1 lb 3 oz and rated to 32F. It has 10 ounces of down, etc.
Golite bags could be state of the art like a few others, they could use the best down and the materials you're looking for, but a cursory look shows me I'd never get one of their bags for subzero winter backpacking. Why? Because their lowest rated bag only goes to 0F and they use a center zipper which can't be opened all the way down which is critical when the temps go from -15F to 40F on the same trip, so I can unzip it completely and throw it over like a blanket. A full zipper has more options even though it's a few grams heavier.
But your point is taken---there are many high quality bags out there---GoLite and Mt Hardwear and the old Montbell and others.
Tipi Walter
11-05-2012, 13:56
Last i checked, you are the one who makes multipage posts on what is the correct way to backpack. :) Looks at the mirror (trailjournals.com ) some time...
FWIW, you told the whole world what the best quality is in terms of bags and one person already disagreed with you. ;)
You're right, in my journals I write long screeds against ultralighters and tarpists and hammockers and even dayhikers, but those entries aren't copied verbatim and posted on this thread and I haven't brought any of them out here to see what an idiot I am. They are not relevant to this discussion. But anyone who knows what the point of backpacking is should call themselves an idiot because no one knows what the point of backpacking is.
Old Hiker
11-05-2012, 14:04
Hey....I like the Orange Ditty Trowel!
Me too - tastes like chicken !!
If you can't duct...ruck it!
(The word I was thinking of starts with a different letter. ;) )
Chuck tape !?! As in Norris !?!
Feral Bill
11-05-2012, 14:14
[QUOTE= the Svea 123 is still the best stove that I have owned . Once you get the Zen of using it worked out ,it's as reliable as the sunrise[/QUOTE] Goes without saying.
Tipi Walter
11-05-2012, 14:40
Goes without saying.
There's nothing like a fireball and the smell of burning flesh in the morning.
Wise Old Owl
11-05-2012, 14:49
Vortex Boots are the Best and will keep your toes dry............:eek:
Even more fun when you loose your eyebrows ..... Right Tipi?
But anyone who knows what the point of backpacking is should call themselves an idiot because no one knows what the point of backpacking is.
You are right. I'm wrong. I'm sorry.
/It is what I tell Mrs Mags when she is upset, too. ;)
garlic08
11-05-2012, 15:10
You are right. I'm wrong. I'm sorry.
/It is what I tell Mrs Mags when she is upset, too. ;)
Mags, didn't I tell you at your wedding that the four best words to save a marriage are, "You're probably right, dear."
garlic08
11-05-2012, 15:12
There's nothing like a fireball and the smell of burning flesh in the morning.
Tipi, you are in good form this morning and you've surprised me with your knowledge of classical musical instruments.
Tipi Walter
11-05-2012, 15:16
Vortex Boots are the Best and will keep your toes dry............:eek:
Even more fun when you loose your eyebrows ..... Right Tipi?
If the goal is to resemble a hairless dog fetus then the Svea 123 might be the stove of choice.
You are right. I'm wrong. I'm sorry.
/It is what I tell Mrs Mags when she is upset, too. ;)
Mrs Tipi won't even bother with my crap.
Old Hiker
11-05-2012, 15:17
Mags, didn't I tell you at your wedding that the four best words to save a marriage are, "You're probably right, dear."
AFter 37 years of marriage (not that it took me that long) the best two words are, "Yes, dear". "Probably" will get you in a WORLD of hurt.
Feral Bill
11-05-2012, 16:55
There's nothing like a fireball and the smell of burning flesh in the morning.
43 years with the same SVEA. Still waiting for that fireball.
RJ Lewis
11-05-2012, 20:03
To me the best gear is what works for me :) Gear is such an individual thing. What works for you is the best gear for you.
TheYoungOne
11-08-2012, 11:28
The best fallacy is that there are really garments which are both waterproof and breathable at the same time! ;)
This one make me laugh. I thought I needed a $300 Goretex rain jacket so I can hike 30 miles uphill during a hurricane, and the wind and rain outside will never get, and I will say comfortable and not a drop of sweat will bead on my skin. Then I found out that is pure BS and that while Goretex is does breathe slightly better then the old rubberized rain coats, Goretex breathes no better than a $20 DriDuck rain suit
The fallacy is that the much acclaimed "best, greatest, and lightest" gear will be eclipsed by something else in a few short years. Soon we will be hiking in Lycra bodysuits with independent heating/cooling mechanisms. :)
I have that now. it just doesn't heat and/or cool on MY schedule.
RE: Stoves and fireballs - Overprime any gasoline stove and that's what you'll get.
Knowledge is key (and a lack of it, on someone else's part, obviously how I got my MSR Whisperlite stove for $16.93 back in 1987). Only used in winter now, I have no troubles with it as long as I check and replace the rubber seals periodically and, of course, avoid overpriming it. :D
Feral Bill
11-08-2012, 13:36
Useful specific example: On a recent 6 day trip, my son borrowed my 40 year old Mountain Master external frame pack. It was state of the art when I bought it, but, even with a newer hip belt, is quite dated now. My son was carrying a bunch of photo gear, and found it to be fabulous for that trip due to the comfort and versatile storage. . For other trips, it might not the "best" pack.
max patch
11-08-2012, 13:59
I use a Svea that I bought in the mid 70s that still works like a champ. Still waiting for that first fireball.
On my thru the Whisperlite was the stove of choice for most. About once a month I let a Whisperlite owner use my Svea when they couldn't get their stove to fire. (Back then they were notorious for clogging.)
Certainly not the lightest choice around, though.
Feral Bill
11-08-2012, 14:26
I use a Svea that I bought in the mid 70s that still works like a champ. Still waiting for that first fireball.
On my thru the Whisperlite was the stove of choice for most. About once a month I let a Whisperlite owner use my Svea when they couldn't get their stove to fire. (Back then they were notorious for clogging.)
Certainly not the lightest choice around, though. Lightness, of course, is less important than lighting.