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View Full Version : Maybe the AMC isnt all bad



hikerboy57
11-01-2012, 08:52
New outdoor education initiative:http://www.outdoors.org/publications/outdoors/2012/fieldnotes/amc-launches-new-maine-schools-program.cfm?utm_source=amcoo&utm_medium=email&utm_content=member&utm_campaign=novamcoo

snifur
11-01-2012, 09:03
They were not bad to begin with.

hikerboy57
11-01-2012, 09:07
They were not bad to begin with.
thats why i posted it.

swjohnsey
11-01-2012, 09:56
1% to education, 99% to huts.

hikerboy57
11-01-2012, 09:58
1% to education, 99% to huts.
silly, so silly.
they run educational programs out of the huts too, which have been there before the at.
it was a nice try though.

Lone Wolf
11-01-2012, 10:11
They were not bad to begin with.

agree. AT hikers sure do whine about them

HikerMom58
11-01-2012, 10:15
I don't have a good understanding about the AMC at all..........

swjohnsey
11-01-2012, 10:39
AMC = Appalachian Money Club, $120,000,000 net worth, no money for trail maintenance.

hikerboy57
11-01-2012, 10:45
AMC = Appalachian Money Club, $120,000,000 net worth, no money for trail maintenance.silly so silly, they have thousands(yes thousands) of members who do it on a voluntary basis. amc members dont need to be paid to love the trail.

Moose2001
11-01-2012, 10:49
AMC = Appalachian Money Club, $120,000,000 net worth, no money for trail maintenance.

I see you're back on this uninformed, inaccurate rant again!

swjohnsey
11-01-2012, 10:53
What ain't accurate?

swjohnsey
11-01-2012, 10:54
silly so silly, they have thousands(yes thousands) of members who do it on a voluntary basis. amc members dont need to be paid to love the trail.

They might love it but they don't maintain it.

hikerboy57
11-01-2012, 10:57
They might love it but they don't maintain it.
nice try, but again false. who do you think built the trails in the first place?.crawford path predates the at by decades. you need a better rant.
silly, so silly.

Moose2001
11-01-2012, 11:01
They might love it but they don't maintain it.

this statement is inaccurate. The entire time you hiked NH and ME you complained and bitched about the trail. Your statement about the AMC not doing maintenance is totally false. Sorry if the trail was too difficult for you and you didn't enjoy it but that is not the AMC's fault. It's so easy to throw rocks and dis a lot of hard working, dedicated volunteers just because you saw something you didn't like. In my mind, the AMC does a hell of a lot better job than some of the other trail clubs. You need to get off this soap box and say thank you to all the volunteers that made your hike possible.

swjohnsey
11-01-2012, 11:02
nice try, but again false. who do you think built the trails in the first place?.crawford path predates the at by decades. you need a better rant.
silly, so silly.

Much of it was built by CCC crews.

swjohnsey
11-01-2012, 11:04
this statement is inaccurate. The entire time you hiked NH and ME you complained and bitched about the trail. Your statement about the AMC not doing maintenance is totally false. Sorry if the trail was too difficult for you and you didn't enjoy it but that is not the AMC's fault. It's so easy to throw rocks and dis a lot of hard working, dedicated volunteers just because you saw something you didn't like. In my mind, the AMC does a hell of a lot better job than some of the other trail clubs. You need to get off this soap box and say thank you to all the volunteers that made your hike possible.

Yep, the MAMC is a close second for the winner at poor train maintenance.

hikerboy57
11-01-2012, 11:06
Yep, the MAMC is a close second for the winner at poor train maintenance.

it aint texas

swjohnsey
11-01-2012, 11:10
it aint texas

That's for sure, Texas has over 100 "peaks" over 6,000 feet, maybe 35 over 7,000 and somethin' like 18 over 8,000.

Moose2001
11-01-2012, 11:11
Yep, the MAMC is a close second for the winner at poor train maintenance.

Both of those organizations depend on volunteers to maintain the AT. Instead of always complaining about something you didn't like, why don't you do something about it? Why not donate some money to them so they have funds to work with. How about giving them some of your time and energy to help them do work? Why not make a difference instead of always being so negative and hateful?

swjohnsey
11-01-2012, 11:20
Both of those organizations depend on volunteers to maintain the AT. Instead of always complaining about something you didn't like, why don't you do something about it? Why not donate some money to them so they have funds to work with. How about giving them some of your time and energy to help them do work? Why not make a difference instead of always being so negative and hateful?

Hateful? Maybe I could volunteer to paint blazes on he section of trail north of Madison Springs Hut.

hikerboy57
11-01-2012, 11:23
Hateful? Maybe I could volunteer to paint blazes on he section of trail north of Madison Springs Hut.
funny ive hiked that section 6 times, never got lost, even in fog
would you consider a small donation?

swjohnsey
11-01-2012, 11:31
funny ive hiked that section 6 times, never got lost, even in fog
would you consider a small donation?

I didn't get lost either. No, I would rather donate labor and a little paint.

hikerboy57
11-01-2012, 11:35
I didn't get lost either. No, I would rather donate labor and a little paint.

lets call it a draw:)

Slo-go'en
11-01-2012, 11:40
Hateful? Maybe I could volunteer to paint blazes on the section of trail north of Madison Springs Hut.

Seeing that is a wilderness area, it has different rules (set by the fed's) on how often there can be blazes. Because the trees grow so quick around here, keeping the trail brushed out is a never ending and thankless job and unfortunately, the more remote sections of trail can get neglected. But that's okay. We like our rugged and wild trails around here, gives something for people "from away" to complain about when they get home...

Wise Old Owl
11-01-2012, 11:44
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6l6npdCpZ1qclcx7o1_1280.jpg

Oh not again.... I cant watch this!

Feral Bill
11-01-2012, 12:08
Much of it was built by CCC crews.
Um, the CCC was in the 1930s, decades after the trails in the Whites were built.

swjohnsey
11-01-2012, 12:10
Seeing that is a wilderness area, it has different rules (set by the fed's) on how often there can be blazes. Because the trees grow so quick around here, keeping the trail brushed out is a never ending and thankless job and unfortunately, the more remote sections of trail can get neglected. But that's okay. We like our rugged and wild trails around here, gives something for people "from away" to complain about when they get home...


Lotsa wilderness areas on the trail, all but one are blazed. This section of trail is far from remote being just south of Pinkham Notch. I've heard the folks in Mexico love the big ole holes in their roads, too.

swjohnsey
11-01-2012, 12:13
Um, the CCC was in the 1930s, decades after the trails in the Whites were built.

You need to read some more trail history. The were some trails in the Whites to predate the AT. Much of the trail that is now the AT in New Hampshire was built by CCC.

Sly
11-01-2012, 12:36
Much of it was built by CCC crews.

It may have been built by CCC crews (don't know for sure) but it certainly doesn't maintain them. The AMC, love them or hate them, does an extraordinary amount of work and maintenance on the trails.

Cookerhiker
11-01-2012, 12:38
Nothing wrong with the AT in the Whites or Maine. I've never gotten lost or had problems finding where it goes and that includes the first time hiking up to Mt. Washington SOBO where the fog was so thick, I barely could make out the cairns.

The vast, vast majority of thruhikers don't complain. So it's steep and rocky - big deal. It's the terrain - it's rocky mountains. That's the way it is. If it's too hard for you, don't hike it.

Nothing like slamming the scores of maintainers who do the hard work so that (sometimes ungrateful) thruhikers can breeze through.

I just finished an 82 mile section hike of the Allegheny Trail; talk about minimal maintenance! Narrow treadway (when one existed at all) on angled slabs, spotty blazing, lots of undergrowth, fording a river - but it was great. Beautiful fall foliage, spruce forests, clean air, no crowds. Celebrate the good, don't dwell on the discomforts.

Stop whining.

Moose2001
11-01-2012, 12:47
Nothing like slamming the scores of maintainers who do the hard work so that (sometimes ungrateful) thruhikers can breeze through.

Stop whining.

+1 Good post. Thanks

Sly
11-01-2012, 12:48
That's for sure, Texas has over 100 "peaks" over 6,000 feet, maybe 35 over 7,000 and somethin' like 18 over 8,000.

Yeah, Texas is a mountaineering mecca. :rolleyes:

jakedatc
11-01-2012, 12:49
Hateful? Maybe I could volunteer to paint blazes on he section of trail north of Madison Springs Hut.

thousands of people navigate the trails without blazes every year. do you mean the Osgood trail down from the top of Madison? it has Cairns everywhere. there are signs at junctions all over the Whites

learn to use a map.. lazy bastard.. lol

*dials up the Whaaaaaaaaaambulance*

hikerboy57
11-01-2012, 12:50
That's for sure, Texas has over 100 "peaks" over 6,000 feet, maybe 35 over 7,000 and somethin' like 18 over 8,000.

then theres no reason to come to the whites, is there

WingedMonkey
11-01-2012, 12:57
I'd work for them.


Our goal is to be a community that is comfortable, inviting, and accessible for people of any age, gender, race, religion, ethnicity, ability, sexual orientation, or socioeconomic status.

Moose2001
11-01-2012, 13:07
I didn't get lost either. No, I would rather donate labor and a little paint.

This small snippet finally gave me some insight into what might be some of your complaints. Sounds like you're upset because sections of the AT in the Whites don't have visible blazes ever 20-30 yards. It's my understanding that the rule of thumb is the next blaze along the trail should be visible from the blaze you're standing next to. Since much of the AT in the Whites is above tree line, that's pretty tough to do! I guess you could paint a blaze on the rock but that wouldn't be visible until you're standing right next to it. So useable option is to build cairns and rock paths to show hikers where to go. Those work extremely well and are a tried a true method through out the world.


I've hiked those areas, not only on my thrus but day hikes, a lot and I've seen them in sun, rain, fog, wind and snow. The cairns work WAY BETTER than blazes in those sections. So, I guess it's just a matter of perspective and how much independence you're comfortable with.


Just a side note, if you're uncomfortable and upset because these sections aren't blazed to your satisfaction, don't bother coming out west to hike the PCT or CDT! You'd have a total melt down before you even got out of Southern California!

hikerboy57
11-01-2012, 13:11
white blazes are not always visible in snow and rime, pretty common in the higher elevations even as late as july.

jakedatc
11-01-2012, 13:12
agree moose. cairns are easy to see in all seasons.. tons of people do these trails in the winter with no issues...

he should probably skip the LT too.. above the AT the blazes get more spread out. seeing one every once in a while was good enough.

Cookerhiker
11-01-2012, 13:19
...he should probably skip the LT too.. above the AT the blazes get more spread out. seeing one every once in a while was good enough.

Funny, I thought the LT blazing was fine; maybe my personal standards are too loose.:D

But I agree with you that he'd best skip the LT. He'd complain about the lack of switchbacks up Camel's Hump or down to Appalachian Gap or up the south side of Mansfield. And Devil's Gulch? Unconscionable! Also the far north isn't always well-cleared of brush.

jakedatc
11-01-2012, 13:28
There was one of the Wilderness's that was known to be lax on blazing.. i was fine with it.. it as just sparse. don't even let him near a ski slope crossing.. doomed for sure.

oy.. the brush bit near the end started to get on my nerves haha.. i *may* have gone bazerk on a few short bits where prickers were growing across the path :)

he could enjoy the Jonesville road walk... paved and marked.

Rasty
11-01-2012, 13:56
Don't go to Shining Rock or Linville Gorge where there aren't any blazes. I went hiking in Idaho this summer and the trails didn't have any blazes, but I brought a map and did just fine. The AT is over blazed in my opinion.

Ya'll need to grow some trees into those above treeline areas up north. It should only take 40 to 50 years to get the tree to grow large enough to paint a blaze on it. :)

jakedatc
11-01-2012, 14:00
He could just walk up I-95 from Florida to Maine. that thing is so well marked..

Rasty
11-01-2012, 14:03
He could just walk up I-95 from Florida to Maine. that thing is so well marked..

The reroute around DC can get confusing!

jakedatc
11-01-2012, 14:07
aquablaze the Chesapeake in a packraft?

hikerboy57
11-01-2012, 14:13
what makes me laugh is most people do their homework before they begin a thru hike, many come here for advise, and when its asked whats the most difficult part of the AT the consensus is the whites through western maine. we discuss constantly the logistics of getting thru the whites, and yet when they get there, so many are surprised that its just as difficult if not moreso, than we describe.
who said it was going to be easy? and the scapegoat becomes the AMC.
silly, so silly

jakedatc
11-01-2012, 14:21
I do hikes in the Whites all the time (29 4k's this year) I don't find them that bad. It takes extra tricky trails to get my attention and they are rarely on the AT..

I've been reading a blog from a mom and her 2 girls this year. both girls did the NH48 by the age of 6. the oldest did the NH48 Winter by age 9. This included doing Mt washington, in the snow, where her father had lost both legs to frostbite (folks who know their NH history can figure it out)

Rise to the challenge.

hikerboy57
11-01-2012, 14:28
I do hikes in the Whites all the time (29 4k's this year) I don't find them that bad. It takes extra tricky trails to get my attention and they are rarely on the AT..

I've been reading a blog from a mom and her 2 girls this year. both girls did the NH48 by the age of 6. the oldest did the NH48 Winter by age 9. This included doing Mt washington, in the snow, where her father had lost both legs to frostbite (folks who know their NH history can figure it out)

Rise to the challenge.
i agree, jake, ive been hiking the whites since 1976 and there are plenty more difficult trails up thre than the AT.
just saying that people from outside the area havent any clue until they gte there and theyve already been warned .
are you talking about hugh herr, the mechanical boy?

jakedatc
11-01-2012, 14:34
Yep, I've actually met him. I was rock climbing in MA next to him before i knew who he was. then i saw the PBS special about him and i was like hey. i know that guy.

His wife and kids are awesome. i'd love to hike with them sometime.

hikerboy57
11-01-2012, 14:38
Yep, I've actually met him. I was rock climbing in MA next to him before i knew who he was. then i saw the PBS special about him and i was like hey. i know that guy.

His wife and kids are awesome. i'd love to hike with them sometime.
read a book about him called second ascent maybe 20 yrs ago, remarkable, inspirational story. he actully used to climb with 2 different length legs climbing routes that real legs could never do.amazing guy. id love to meet him myself.

Feral Bill
11-01-2012, 15:22
Yep, I've actually met him. I was rock climbing in MA next to him before i knew who he was. then i saw the PBS special about him and i was like hey. i know that guy.

His wife and kids are awesome. i'd love to hike with them sometime. I believe a rescuer died looking for him and his partner, and that he lost his legs to basic incompetence. That was many years ago, of course.

hikerboy57
11-01-2012, 15:26
I believe a rescuer died looking for him and his partner, and that he lost his legs to basic incompetence. That was many years ago, of course.he and his friend went ice climbing, decided to summit after finishing the route, got lost in a whiteout , eventually stumbled into the great gulf. dont remember all the details, but i know his friend died, he survived, dont remember a rescuer dying, but i could be wrong.either way he lived with the guilt of losing his friend as well s the trauma of losing his legs.

Feral Bill
11-01-2012, 15:31
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Herr There you go. Not prepared for normal Mt Washington weather. I expect many of the rescuers were AMC.

Mountain Mike
11-01-2012, 15:34
Two rescuers died in an avalanche searing one of the gullies for them. The first rescuer to get to him was an instructor at the Woofer course I took at Pinkham. He was found by An AMC employee out snowshoeing & hightailed it back to Pinkham where they sent a helicopter back to get him.

hikerboy57
11-01-2012, 15:42
Two rescuers died in an avalanche searing one of the gullies for them. The first rescuer to get to him was an instructor at the Woofer course I took at Pinkham. He was found by An AMC employee out snowshoeing & hightailed it back to Pinkham where they sent a helicopter back to get him.

yes i remember, thats correct. thanks for filling in the details.
wait a minute, did you say an AMC employee?

WingedMonkey
11-01-2012, 15:44
So? How is that AMC school program working out?

Mountain Mike
11-01-2012, 15:45
Yes the AMC employee on time off snowshoeing the Great Gulf wilderness.

swjohnsey
11-01-2012, 15:56
This small snippet finally gave me some insight into what might be some of your complaints. Sounds like you're upset because sections of the AT in the Whites don't have visible blazes ever 20-30 yards. It's my understanding that the rule of thumb is the next blaze along the trail should be visible from the blaze you're standing next to. Since much of the AT in the Whites is above tree line, that's pretty tough to do! I guess you could paint a blaze on the rock but that wouldn't be visible until you're standing right next to it. So useable option is to build cairns and rock paths to show hikers where to go. Those work extremely well and are a tried a true method through out the world.


I've hiked those areas, not only on my thrus but day hikes, a lot and I've seen them in sun, rain, fog, wind and snow. The cairns work WAY BETTER than blazes in those sections. So, I guess it's just a matter of perspective and how much independence you're comfortable with.


Just a side note, if you're uncomfortable and upset because these sections aren't blazed to your satisfaction, don't bother coming out west to hike the PCT or CDT! You'd have a total melt down before you even got out of Southern California!

Got no proplem with rock cairns above the treeline. Actualy, the portion of the trail above the tree line has both cairns and blazes in abundance. The AT mission was to have a trail that could be navigated by blazes from Georgia to Maine. I am an expert navigator, on the ground, on the water and in the air.

hikerboy57
11-01-2012, 16:00
So? How is that AMC school program working out?
i dont know. i havent read the article i posted
i just put it up to annoy swjohnsey:)

swjohnsey
11-01-2012, 16:02
i dont know. i havent read the article i posted
i just put it up to annoy swjohnsey:)

Thanks, gives me an opportunity to poke at the AMC. They sure are thin skinned.

hikerboy57
11-01-2012, 16:19
sarcasm is not just an elf:)

moldy
11-01-2012, 19:27
This education thing they are doing is pure marketing.

hikerboy57
11-01-2012, 19:38
This education thing they are doing is pure marketing.
yup market the outdoors to kids. capitalism at its worst.
please
silly, so silly

jakedatc
11-01-2012, 23:20
I believe a rescuer died looking for him and his partner, and that he lost his legs to basic incompetence. That was many years ago, of course.

He was 18 when it happened. 1 rescuer died.. Which is a ****ty deal, which i'm sure all rescuers know could happen when they go out. What Hugh has done with his life afterward is commendable. Making huge strides in prosthetic devices and rehabilitation for amputees. his climbing career post accident is inspiring and impressive.

"On a personal note, I'd like to say one final, very important thing. To those search and rescue individuals who participated in the 1982 efforts to find and save Hugh Herr and Jeff Batzer -- thank you. If it weren't for you, my daughters would not exist. As a mother, from the bottom of my heart, thank you. " - Patricia Herr.

Many years is right. taking jabs 30 years later is pretty harsh. i'm sure he has had to deal with that plenty ever since.

jakedatc
11-01-2012, 23:33
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-26_y30Tww

Mountain Mike
11-02-2012, 00:18
I admire what he has done since then. Point is his action caused the death of 1-2 people. I'm sorry I though it was two rescuers that died. But due to bad planning two people ended up dead. One trying to save his life. Yes rescue people know the risks but still put their lives on the line for stupid people. My friend said that one of their reliefs when the dug the guy out from the avalanche was that there was no ice mask, so he died due to injury & not a slow death. Then they continued the search. He was the one that repelled down to Hugh & started treating him for the severe hypothermia he was in. Misha was even on a national morning talk show within days,slightly frostbitten nose & all. What upset him most was Hugh never apologized to the family of dead rescuer or thanked any of them. He told about it during a lunch break here where he could point out where it happened. http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/8/4/8/4/scan228.jpg

jakedatc
11-02-2012, 01:04
I dunno what to tell you. I don't know the specifics of that day...so saying it was poor planning is speculation. he was already a world class climber at 17.. Odell's Gully in Huntingtons is WI3 3 pitches long which is fairly moderate and short. Getting lost in a whiteout is an accident, i don't know how much time they had to bail before it went to ****. Reading on Mountain Project, it says weather is difficult to see coming due to the positioning of the gully. I do not think most folks bring overnight gear to do Huntingtons. Even with gear they could have still been stuck, still needed rescue and folks still would have gone looking.

the way he talks in that interview it seems unlikely that he would not say anything about the rescuers.. at least at some point.

still dont see where you get 2 people.. it was only Albert Dow who was killed.

I guess it is easy for some to take pot shots at a 17 year old double amputee 30 years later..

Feral Bill
11-02-2012, 01:50
The point is that in those mountains, in winter, being a brilliant technical climber is not enough. You need to be to be willing to turn back and prepared to be caught out in worse than polar conditions (cold AND wet) and take care of yourself . We all make mistakes, and should learn from our own and each others, as I'm sure he has. Training, by the AMC and others, helps prevent these tragedies.

Mountain Mike
11-02-2012, 02:17
I dunno what to tell you. I don't know the specifics of that day...so saying it was poor planning is speculation. he was already a world class climber at 17.. Odell's Gully in Huntingtons is WI3 3 pitches long which is fairly moderate and short. Getting lost in a whiteout is an accident, i don't know how much time they had to bail before it went to ****. Reading on Mountain Project, it says weather is difficult to see coming due to the positioning of the gully. I do not think most folks bring overnight gear to do Huntingtons. Even with gear they could have still been stuck, still needed rescue and folks still would have gone looking.

the way he talks in that interview it seems unlikely that he would not say anything about the rescuers.. at least at some point.

still dont see where you get 2 people.. it was only Albert Dow who was killed.

I guess it is easy for some to take pot shots at a 17 year old double amputee 30 years later..

Two people did die. His partner & a person on a search & rescue mission. I have no doubt it has affected him. But it has also affected the lives of a whole lot of other people. Can you imagine digging a dead friend out of an avalanche & still continue a search & rescue mission? Wife/Kids/ family affected. He as of 98 still hadn't thanked the people that rescued him or the guy that died to try & save him,

Mountain Mike
11-02-2012, 02:19
He has done a lot to advance amputee awareness since then and I give him kudos for that

Driver8
11-02-2012, 08:53
read a book about him called second ascent maybe 20 yrs ago, remarkable, inspirational story. he actully used to climb with 2 different length legs climbing routes that real legs could never do.amazing guy. id love to meet him myself.

They're a great family. I've traded several notes with Trish and met her and the fam at Seek the Peak in July. I started reading her blog before I knew of her and the kids being Hugh's family - had heard about him on NPR'sFresh Air. Seek the Peak was a special day for them, as Hugh ascended Washington with his family - it was his first ascent of that beast since his epic, harrowing 1982 Huntington Ravine-and-beyond ordeal.

Trish has written a book, Up, about her and Alex's adventures in the NH 48. I look forward to hiking with them someday. Neat people. The community of NH peakbaggers is a bright, interesting and varied lot, many of them with excellent blogs. Becoming acquainted with them has been a nice addition to Whiteblaze and other good resources for me.

Driver8
11-02-2012, 08:58
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Herr There you go. Not prepared for normal Mt Washington weather. I expect many of the rescuers were AMC.

That's easy to say here, 30 years later. Easy to forget that weather forecasts were much poorer then than now, and even now the weather on Mt. W surprises meteorologists. They were surprised that as they crested Huntington Ravine, they were stepping right into the teeth of a blizzard. I think it highly uncharitable and disrespectful to cast stones at them from this vantage point.

Feral Bill
11-02-2012, 11:12
That's easy to say here, 30 years later. Easy to forget that weather forecasts were much poorer then than now, . All the more reason to be prepared for the worse. They were not. People died as a result.
And, for the record, I made a number of winter trips in the Presidentials and have seen the weather there first hand.

jakedatc
11-02-2012, 11:16
A bit offensive. Keep it to PMs. -Thx

jakedatc
11-02-2012, 11:34
Two people did die. His partner & a person on a search & rescue mission. I have no doubt it has affected him. But it has also affected the lives of a whole lot of other people. Can you imagine digging a dead friend out of an avalanche & still continue a search & rescue mission? Wife/Kids/ family affected. He as of 98 still hadn't thanked the people that rescued him or the guy that died to try & save him,

"
After learning that Albert Dow was killed in avalanche searching for them, Jeff Batzer said, “We don’t deserve to be here.” from accident report.. gee doesn't sound dead to me

get your facts straight.

Driver8
11-02-2012, 15:10
All the more reason to be prepared for the worse. They were not. People died as a result.
And, for the record, I made a number of winter trips in the Presidentials and have seen the weather there first hand.

Just to be straightforward, I think you are being awfully harsh, judgmental and disrespectful toward a young kid - as stated before, he was 17 or so at the time. Good grief, get off your high horse and cut him some slack. You don't take into account at all, not a whit, that he and his climbing partner suffered mightily in this case - any reasoned look at the situation with any sense of humanity would get, right away, that this has to have been the most traumatic thing he ever went to, the equivalent of shell-shock for a front-line soldier.

He may not have apologized to the the rescuers because of his own PTSD. Does that occur to you? Work on your compassion.

From Trish's own blog entry for Seek the Peak day, Hugh was able at Mt. W's summit to talk one of the people who was involved with the rescue - I think someone who directed rescue efforts from base, not one of those out searching. She's circumspect, but it's clear that this was a day full of feeling for him, I'm sure of gratitude and regret for the rescuers among many other emotions.

Judge not, lest ye be judged - not the easiest edict to follow, one I often have trouble with, but a good one.

Driver8
11-02-2012, 15:11
Sorry, meant to include it in the prior post - here's the link to Trish's blog entry for Seek the Peak: http://www.trishalexsage.com/2012/07/seek-peak-2012-mt-washington-via-lion.html

Prime Time
11-02-2012, 17:18
Every time I see these whiney posts about the AMC, I have to take a couple of deep breaths. People who post these things don't have a clue. Really. Iv'e been an AMC member for over 40 years and have volunteered my time, along with countless hundreds or perhaps thousands of others, to help with trail maintenance for at least half of those. We always give special attention to the trails that the AT uses, but also work hard on the 700 other miles of trails in the White Mountains alone that we help maintain. Just this summer I hiked from Glencliff to Grafton Notch in Maine, in other words the entire length of the AT that the AMC helps out with, and there was not a single stretch that was not in excellent condition or unmarked. If someone becomes confused about where the AT goes thru the White's, it always turns out they simply missed the designated sign (I have seen that happen a dozen times at least), and/or refuse to carry a map despite all the advice to do so. What really happens is that the Whites are tougher than them, they get tired, they miss a turn, and they have to blame the trail or the AMC because it couldn't possibly be them. Oh, yeah, they also want white paint blazes all over the rocks above tree line (they'll be a big help in winter even if they haven't worn out in two months), and shelters too while you're at it. Good grief!

Cookerhiker
11-02-2012, 18:22
Every time I see these whiney posts about the AMC, I have to take a couple of deep breaths. People who post these things don't have a clue. Really. Iv'e been an AMC member for over 40 years and have volunteered my time, along with countless hundreds or perhaps thousands of others, to help with trail maintenance for at least half of those. We always give special attention to the trails that the AT uses, but also work hard on the 700 other miles of trails in the White Mountains alone that we help maintain. Just this summer I hiked from Glencliff to Grafton Notch in Maine, in other words the entire length of the AT that the AMC helps out with, and there was not a single stretch that was not in excellent condition or unmarked. If someone becomes confused about where the AT goes thru the White's, it always turns out they simply missed the designated sign (I have seen that happen a dozen times at least), and/or refuse to carry a map despite all the advice to do so. What really happens is that the Whites are tougher than them, they get tired, they miss a turn, and they have to blame the trail or the AMC because it couldn't possibly be them. Oh, yeah, they also want white paint blazes all over the rocks above tree line (they'll be a big help in winter even if they haven't worn out in two months), and shelters too while you're at it. Good grief!

Right on - thanks for posting.

Were I in your position, I'd be a bit less measured in my response to the unwarranted insults from the whiners.

swjohnsey
11-02-2012, 20:18
Every time I see these whiney posts about the AMC, I have to take a couple of deep breaths. People who post these things don't have a clue. Really. Iv'e been an AMC member for over 40 years and have volunteered my time, along with countless hundreds or perhaps thousands of others, to help with trail maintenance for at least half of those. We always give special attention to the trails that the AT uses, but also work hard on the 700 other miles of trails in the White Mountains alone that we help maintain. Just this summer I hiked from Glencliff to Grafton Notch in Maine, in other words the entire length of the AT that the AMC helps out with, and there was not a single stretch that was not in excellent condition or unmarked. If someone becomes confused about where the AT goes thru the White's, it always turns out they simply missed the designated sign (I have seen that happen a dozen times at least), and/or refuse to carry a map despite all the advice to do so. What really happens is that the Whites are tougher than them, they get tired, they miss a turn, and they have to blame the trail or the AMC because it couldn't possibly be them. Oh, yeah, they also want white paint blazes all over the rocks above tree line (they'll be a big help in winter even if they haven't worn out in two months), and shelters too while you're at it. Good grief!

Hellofa hike you did, hundred miles or so. There is not a single blaze on the portion of the trail north of Madison Springs hut from the treeline to the intersection to the old somethin' or other road trail that leads to Pinkham Notch. You need to go down south a bit to see what excellent condition looks like.

hikerboy57
11-02-2012, 20:24
But you say you didnt get lost.its not difficult to follow.whats the problem.do you just want more blazes?

Prime Time
11-02-2012, 20:48
swjohnsey, I've hiked the AT thru much of Georgia, NC, TN, VA, and all of New England. I've loved it all and I am grateful to all the folks who have had a hand in creating the trail and who are currently maintaining it. I have never had one moments hesitation that wasn't simply due to me not paying as much attention as I should have. Even then, I was able to correct MY ERROR within a short period of time and things always ended well. Part of what makes hiking the AT, or anywhere else for that matter, an adventure is that it is not all groomed and marked to the point that you could just as well be walking in Central Park. The Osgood Trail, to Madison Gulf Trail to Old Jackson Road (If you bothered to bring a map you'd actually know the names of the trails...ummm maybe that's part of the problem) are almost impossible to get lost in. Much of it is in federally designated wilderness lands THAT CANNOT BE BLAZED BY FEDERAL LAW. The signs, however, are impossible to miss so unless you have not bothered to bring a map AND have somehow not read the signs, you cannot lose the AT through here. It's that simple.

jakedatc
11-02-2012, 20:49
he is too much of a pansy to walk on a clearly defined path. if gumby ass tourons can do it on a weekly basis getting to the Huts i'm sure a thru hiker could..

Hikerhead
11-02-2012, 20:52
Hellofa hike you did, hundred miles or so. There is not a single blaze on the portion of the trail north of Madison Springs hut from the treeline to the intersection to the old somethin' or other road trail that leads to Pinkham Notch. You need to go down south a bit to see what excellent condition looks like.

That's a Wilderness Area and has nothing to do with the AMC. You're barking up the wrong tree. I hiked part of that in the dark, got off track a little and decided to find a place in the firs to hang my hammock. Kerosene camped a little ahead of me right on the trail. The next morning you could easily tell what trail had the most traffic on it and out we went without any problems.

Prime Time
11-02-2012, 20:58
Johnsey - Yeah, it was a helluva hike. One of my favorites. 131.7 miles to be exact. And not one bit of it confusing or hard to follow. Of course I did have a map and I do read the signs. Maybe that's just me.

hikerboy57
11-02-2012, 21:01
swjohnsey, I've hiked the AT thru much of Georgia, NC, TN, VA, and all of New England. I've loved it all and I am grateful to all the folks who have had a hand in creating the trail and who are currently maintaining it. I have never had one moments hesitation that wasn't simply due to me not paying as much attention as I should have. Even then, I was able to correct MY ERROR within a short period of time and things always ended well. Part of what makes hiking the AT, or anywhere else for that matter, an adventure is that it is not all groomed and marked to the point that you could just as well be walking in Central Park. The Osgood Trail, to Madison Gulf Trail to Old Jackson Road (If you bothered to bring a map you'd actually know the names of the trails...ummm maybe that's part of the problem) are almost impossible to get lost in. Much of it is in federally designated wilderness lands THAT CANNOT BE BLAZED BY FEDERAL LAW. The signs, however, are impossible to miss so unless you have not bothered to bring a map AND have somehow not read the signs, you cannot lose the AT through here. It's that simple.
you hit it on the head-maps. if you dont know the trail names through the whites, i can see getting confused at the junctions. but the trail itself is not that difficult to follow.he can buy maps from the AMC instead of the atc maps, although the guide is pretty clear.
the other issue is theres too many rocks up there :)

jakedatc
11-02-2012, 21:08
I carry nothing but the NH 4000 footer map and i've never lost the trail in 250mi and 29 peaks this year in NH... AT.. non AT... blazed, not blazed. walk between the trees.. there is the trail.

stick to the tourist attractions eh?

Cookerhiker
11-02-2012, 21:10
My post when he bitched about the AMC a few months ago:


I've never had problems finding the AT route in the Whites. In my early years when I sectioned them in '82 and '84, I had the maps and guidebooks. The latter described how the AT used existing trails e.g. Crawford Path, Webster Cliff Trail. It wasn't hard to find and follow the trail. When I sectioned again in '08 (part of the Presidentials) and '09 (Franconia), again I had no problems...

...Nowadays, it seems most thruhikers can't be bothered with buying and studying a trail guide or even a map; they're content with a services guide (AWOL, Companion) and expect a nice wide path in the woods with frequent-enough blazes & signs to make it easier for their thruhike.

Regarding the trail conditions, what do you expect? It's steep rocky terrain! It's the New England mountains. The ruggedness comes with the territory, it is the territory. And the payoff is spectacular - one of the most beautiful parts of the AT. At least the views and setting reward the hiker for the rock hopping which is more than I can say for the PA razor rocks or the horrendous rockfield in VA (i.e. the South) north of Bailey Gap Shelter.

Lastly, during my Maine section hike in '05 I met many thruhikers, all of them young. I don't recall anyone complaining about the Whites' trail conditions.

hikerboy57
11-02-2012, 21:21
I carry nothing but the NH 4000 footer map and i've never lost the trail in 250mi and 29 peaks this year in NH... AT.. non AT... blazed, not blazed. walk between the trees.. there is the trail.

stick to the tourist attractions eh?

jake you forget you are not like other mortals

jakedatc
11-02-2012, 21:22
Right.. but thousands of others do the same thing so it can't be that hard :) maybe SW just needs someone to hold his hand so he won't get scared

hikerboy57
11-02-2012, 21:29
Right.. but thousands of others do the same thing so it can't be that hard :) maybe SW just needs someone to hold his hand so he won't get scared
i particularly enjoyed the gumbyass touron comment.

atmilkman
11-02-2012, 21:41
http://postholer.com/mapbooks/preview.php?trail_id=3
Would these maps work good?

Prime Time
11-02-2012, 21:42
I volunteer to hold SW's hand thru the Whites. If it gets all rocky and scary I'll sing to him.

jakedatc
11-02-2012, 21:47
http://postholer.com/mapbooks/preview.php?trail_id=3
Would these maps work good?

http://www.amazon.com/White-Mountains-Waterproof-Trail-Map/dp/1890060232/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_y

(http://www.amazon.com/White-Mountains-Waterproof-Trail-Map/dp/1890060232/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_y)

Prime Time
11-02-2012, 21:49
http://postholer.com/mapbooks/preview.php?trail_id=3
Would these maps work good?
Actually, these are not all that good because they don't tell you what trail you are on. Through the Whites, there is no such trail as the Appalachian Trail. The AT follows other trails, most of which pre date the AT by decades, and although most signs tell you it's also the AT, not all of the signs do. All signs, however, tell you the actual name of the trail. Also, these maps do not show the other trails that cross the AT. This is where most people go wrong.

atmilkman
11-02-2012, 21:50
http://www.amazon.com/White-Mountains-Waterproof-Trail-Map/dp/1890060232/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_y

(http://www.amazon.com/White-Mountains-Waterproof-Trail-Map/dp/1890060232/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_y)
Very good. Thank you. Nice price too.

Prime Time
11-02-2012, 21:50
http://www.amazon.com/White-Mountains-Waterproof-Trail-Map/dp/1890060232/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_y

(http://www.amazon.com/White-Mountains-Waterproof-Trail-Map/dp/1890060232/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_y)This is the map one needs.

atmilkman
11-02-2012, 21:54
This is the map one needs.
It's the one I'm getting. Thanks again guys.

jakedatc
11-02-2012, 21:55
Yep, and if you are really brave you can bring a compass and see what you are looking at from all of the awesome views. I am jealous of the real experienced White's folks who can just look out at another ridge and tell you what everything is. i'm not there yet.

Mountain Mike
11-02-2012, 22:00
http://postholer.com/mapbooks/preview.php?trail_id=3
Would these maps work good?
Only if you know how to read a map. I was amazed when I started my thru & offered to help a potential thru lighten his pack. He had a high end silva complete with leather case. I suggested mailing the case home. He then said he didn't know how to use it.

hikerboy57
11-02-2012, 22:06
i think swjohnsey should be thanked for giving this thread longer legs. its good publicity for the amc being maybe not so bad.ive been an amc member for 16 years. signed up for a 3 day canoe trip to lake umbagog, and actually had a really good time. ive met people from all walks of life at the huts, and yeah, some are clueless, and maybe a bit of the aspen mindset sometimes, but hey theyre enjoying the outdoors. passing stewardship of the whites on to the next generation is important to those of us whove hiked the whites. theyre spectacular, as well as the parts of maine ive seen. i bailed out at chairback last august and wound up following a lumber road to gorman lodge, met the gorman family , who gave me a ride into greenville.it didnt hurt that i had just finished reading about the lodge in the last issue of appalachia, knew some of the history of the area.
we want to ensure the next generation will help to protect it.

Mountain Mike
11-02-2012, 22:12
Yep, and if you are really brave you can bring a compass and see what you are looking at from all of the awesome views. I am jealous of the real experienced White's folks who can just look out at another ridge and tell you what everything is. i'm not there yet.
Growing up in MA the Whites were my formative stomping ground. I bought poured over topo maps all the time. I could just about draw out the trail system from memory. My favorite place is Ethan Pond. On one trip there I helped with the Helicopter drops bringing in the parts for composted privy. 4 drops at $800 an hour + crew labor. I've also helped compost the waste from one at another shelter. Few hikers would bitch about the fee for a shelter if they ever had to do this. The neat part was while working with the caretaker I found out I hiked with his grandparents on my thru-hike.

OzJacko
11-02-2012, 22:14
Will be getting the abovementioned map.
Thanks for the info.
Disappointed to see a picture of the cog railway and a hiker NOT mooning it.....

hikerboy57
11-02-2012, 22:16
Will be getting the abovementioned map.
Thanks for the info.
Disappointed to see a picture of the cog railway and a hiker NOT mooning it.....

we were mooning it behind our computers

jakedatc
11-02-2012, 22:23
Growing up in MA the Whites were my formative stomping ground. I bought poured over topo maps all the time. I could just about draw out the trail system from memory. My favorite place is Ethan Pond. On one trip there I helped with the Helicopter drops bringing in the parts for composted privy. 4 drops at $800 an hour + crew labor. I've also helped compost the waste from one at another shelter. Few hikers would bitch about the fee for a shelter if they ever had to do this. The neat part was while working with the caretaker I found out I hiked with his grandparents on my thru-hike.

Ethan pond was definitely a nice area. the shelter there is awesome. double decker like the Imp shelter. Talked to some thru hikers on my way by and they were super happy to have stayed there.

hikerboy57
11-02-2012, 22:39
Ethan pond was definitely a nice area. the shelter there is awesome. double decker like the Imp shelter. Talked to some thru hikers on my way by and they were super happy to have stayed there.
ive tented there a few times, it was cool to have a separate cooking area/bearbox,as ive seen bears in the pemi a few times.
pretty spot

Mountain Mike
11-02-2012, 22:42
Been to long since I have been there! I remember the old 8 person shelter. http://hikethewhites.com/photos/ethanpond.jpg

jakedatc
11-02-2012, 23:00
ohhh.. woops. i'm thinking Kinsman Pond shelter. that is like a castle. I didn't actually go over to Ethan pond shelter on my way by that. i got my ponds confused.

kinsman pond shelter.. 17956

Mountain Mike
11-02-2012, 23:08
Still to long since I have been in the area. Even that is new to me.

Mountain Mike
11-02-2012, 23:09
For all you White Mountain fans this is a great site; http://hikethewhites.com/

Driver8
11-02-2012, 23:44
Hellofa hike you did, hundred miles or so. There is not a single blaze on the portion of the trail north of Madison Springs hut from the treeline to the intersection to the old somethin' or other road trail that leads to Pinkham Notch. You need to go down south a bit to see what excellent condition looks like.

Troll alert. Move on along, folks. Nothing to see here. ...

Mountain Mike
11-02-2012, 23:51
Troll alert. Move on along, folks. Nothing to see here. ...
No White Blazes! OMG we should send out a search party he may be stuck there deciding which way to go! Oh if he only thought to bring a map!

Mountain Mike
11-02-2012, 23:56
One of my fond memories of hiking in the Whites is bushwhacking from Ethan Pond to Mt Willy. New caretaker there came with us & I taught him the offset bearing method. Did a loop of Fields, Tom & Zealand Notch.

magic_game03
11-03-2012, 00:24
hold on johnsey don't cry, I'm calling you a wambulance right now. hopefully they start putting in those wheelchair ramps so you can get your hubberround around the AT. By the way I'd stay away from any real trails like the PCT or CDT that don't have a trail of little white blazes every 100 ft. or even trail signs for the most part. geesh. I can only imagine what you'd say if you had to cross the Wind River Range or pass through the Ansel Adams.

Mountain Mike
11-03-2012, 00:30
I'm sorry I should be helping out. Start with this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compass

Cookerhiker
11-03-2012, 07:22
Been to long since I have been there! I remember the old 8 person shelter. http://hikethewhites.com/photos/ethanpond.jpg

My first section hike in the Whites was 1982, hiking SOBO from Pinkham to the Gale River Trail just after Galehead Hut. Stayed in Ethan Pond Shelter with 4-5 other guys, one of whom was a thruhiker. He may have been the first thru I ever met; they were rarer in those days.

That evening, a youth group camped nearby cooked by the shelter and a girl spilled boiling water on the instep of her foot. Not only was she in severe pain (especially after taking off her sock with a layer of skin attached), she also went into shock. All of us tried to help - I ended up giving her my sleeping bag for the night as did some of the others - she must have had 3 sleeping bags over her to ward off the extreme chills.