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Cozy
11-07-2012, 13:55
I just finished 125 miles on the C&O Canal trail. I used a MSR Nook tent for myself, a new Women's Neo Air XLite sleeping pad with an R value of 3.9, and my Go Lite 20 degree down quilt. I opened the two vents at the top of the tent for venting and occasionally the front screen door. Weather at night was 38 degrees to low 40's.

I wore base 2.0 polyester Under Armor for my lower body bottom layer and a 100% polypropylene long sleeve shirt for my upper body layer (long john's).

I found myself extremely warm and clammy under the quilt, mostly from my waist down. This occurred both when I strapped the quilt under mattress and when I had it unstrapped using it as a blanket over me. Then cold drafts would then come in and then I'd get too cold only for me to get all warm & clammy again. This cycle drove me nuts and prevented me from getting a good night's sleep. BTW, no condensation on the inside of the tent walls.

What is going on?

Could it be the reflective properties of the Neo XLite 3.9 R value mattress making me too warm? If so, I can turn the mattress around and sleep on the opposite side to alleviate this?

Was I using too warm of a bag- the 20 degree quilt in 38-40 degree weather, making me too hot?

Was it the clothing? Should i just have used a silk top and bottom? Or a silk sleeping bag liner?

Was it a combination of factors?

Additional information: When I did a section hike in Virginia on the AT in April, I had the Neo Air Trekker, a 40 degree synthetic sleeping bag, same tent, and wore 100% polypropylene long sleep top and bottoms. I had the same problem with my legs getting too warm (40 degrees at night) but not to the extreme as I just experienced on the C&O trail.

Thanks for your help.

Creek Dancer
11-07-2012, 14:35
My guess is that the clothing might be part of the problem. I have experienced similar problems while wearing synthetic clothing for sleeping. Now I only use either wool or silk (never cotton) year round and I am much more comfortable.

Six-Six
11-07-2012, 14:45
Sponge bath before getting ready to sleep. The days perspiration seems to make me alternately chilled and overheated during the night unless I clean up, at least my torso.

Cozy
11-07-2012, 15:30
Sponge bath before getting ready to sleep. The days perspiration seems to make me alternately chilled and overheated during the night unless I clean up, at least my torso.

Yes, I did that every night but still encountered the same situation.

snifur
11-07-2012, 16:32
sleep nude. thats what i do. i dont get clammy and if i get a chill i put a layer of clothes on. if you dont like the idea of sleeping nude, then put a pair of socks on. then you are not nekked. if you find that it is the clothing i would suggest changing fabric. if it is not the fabric, then change the sleep system to a quilt or similar. if that does not work, either stay home or accept that you are clammy and hike on.

Ender
11-07-2012, 16:35
I would suggest using a silk sleeping bag liner. It will wick away and absorb some of the moisture. It's worked very well for me in the past. One thing though, take it out to dry during your lunch break, if possible. It won't be soaking wet, not even close to it, but air drying it will help you stay even more comfortable.

Karma13
11-07-2012, 16:38
Sounds like menopause! :D

I'm assuming that's not the issue. In which case, "clammy" sounds to me like a breathability issue. The quilt shell isn't very breathable. You're getting condensation under your quilt or in your bag, but not inside the tent. You're getting condensation under the quilt because you're sweating. And you're sweating because your clothes are too hot or also not breathable. I'd try going commando or using natural-fiber clothing to sleep in, as others have suggested.

Using the 20-degree quilt when it's 40 degrees probably contributes. I run into something similar when I use my 25* WM bag when it's 50 degrees out -- too hot under it, too cold without. Then I need to layer to get around it. Or just wear socks and stick my feet out, that sort of thing.

bubonicplay
11-07-2012, 17:23
Definitely wear icebreaker 150g base layers.

grayfox
11-07-2012, 17:41
Since there was no condensation, the temp was just above the dew point. That is always hard to deal with because the air is holding so much moisture already that moisture on your skin can not evaporate until you are really too hot to be comfortable. Then you throw off the covers and freeze That's bad enough when it is warm out but when it is cool you constantly have to change being covered for uncovered. Best you can do is wear long uderwear--I like Power Dry type fabrics. You can also cover your pad so that dampness will be absorbed rather than just puddleing under you. A light poly fabric works well above feezing and light wool when it is colder. 33 degrees to fortyish is the most difficult to be comfortable for me day or night.

Leanthree
11-07-2012, 17:44
I think the neo air/quilt combination is your problem. By only having a thin synthetic layer between you and and the mattress pad, there is nowhere for moisture from your body to go. Normally, a sleeping bag would be this layer. Maybe wear a puffy layer or fleece to bed? or a silk liner as others mentioned.

Blissful
11-07-2012, 18:52
Sounds like a lot of clothing and too low temp bag for conditions. Your skin needs to breathe as there is normal perspiration from your skin.

Sandy of PA
11-07-2012, 20:52
I wear a silk nightgown on the trail, the same as at home. I don't sleep well with longjohns on unless it is real cold. After hiking all day my legs seem to put out more heat than usual, so I don't cover them.

skinewmexico
11-07-2012, 22:50
Less clothes.

Odd Man Out
11-08-2012, 01:01
I was taught to lay on top of your bag (before the days of quilts) and lie still until you are starting to get chilly and then cover up. When you go to bed your metabolism is still ramped up from the day. This is why you can hike in a t-shirt, even on cold days. Climbing right into the sack is tempting on a cold night, but the extra metabolism "fogs up" the bag with too much moisture and once you get damp, your toast (sorry, I am really mixing my metaphors). Anyway I am sometimes amazed at how long I can stay comfortable outside my bag on a cold night from the latent heat and metabolism from the day's activities. That quiet time of unwinding on top of my bag is actually one of my favorite times of the day when camping. Sometimes, I even go to sleep on top of my bag. Eventually, you wake up cold, you get in your bag, and you are nice and toasty (oohh, same metaphor, opposite meaning!). I don't know if this method is common, but it works for me. YMMV.

bubonicplay
11-08-2012, 01:36
X2 don't get in your bag until your are cold and dry.

Cozy
11-08-2012, 13:05
I think the neo air/quilt combination is your problem. By only having a thin synthetic layer between you and and the mattress pad, there is nowhere for moisture from your body to go. Normally, a sleeping bag would be this layer. Maybe wear a puffy layer or fleece to bed? or a silk liner as others mentioned.

I used the sheet set with the Thermarest Neo xlite so it was inbetween me and the pad. It's me, clothing, and the quilt that is having the issue.

Cozy
11-08-2012, 13:09
I was taught to lay on top of your bag (before the days of quilts) and lie still until you are starting to get chilly and then cover up. When you go to bed your metabolism is still ramped up from the day. This is why you can hike in a t-shirt, even on cold days. Climbing right into the sack is tempting on a cold night, but the extra metabolism "fogs up" the bag with too much moisture and once you get damp, your toast (sorry, I am really mixing my metaphors). Anyway I am sometimes amazed at how long I can stay comfortable outside my bag on a cold night from the latent heat and metabolism from the day's activities. That quiet time of unwinding on top of my bag is actually one of my favorite times of the day when camping. Sometimes, I even go to sleep on top of my bag. Eventually, you wake up cold, you get in your bag, and you are nice and toasty (oohh, same metaphor, opposite meaning!). I don't know if this method is common, but it works for me. YMMV.

One night I did not use the bag as you suggested until I got cold. After covered up, I awoke to the same issue. Very frustrating trying to figure this out but I need to get it right before my thru hike.

Tinker
11-08-2012, 13:16
Less clothes.

Fewer, too. :)

Cozy
11-08-2012, 13:17
Sounds like menopause! :D

I'm assuming that's not the issue. In which case, "clammy" sounds to me like a breathability issue. The quilt shell isn't very breathable. You're getting condensation under your quilt or in your bag, but not inside the tent. You're getting condensation under the quilt because you're sweating. And you're sweating because your clothes are too hot or also not breathable. I'd try going commando or using natural-fiber clothing to sleep in, as others have suggested.

Using the 20-degree quilt when it's 40 degrees probably contributes. I run into something similar when I use my 25* WM bag when it's 50 degrees out -- too hot under it, too cold without. Then I need to layer to get around it. Or just wear socks and stick my feet out, that sort of thing.

No, it's not menopause. :)

What you are describing though is exactly what is happening. Good suggestions!

Cozy
11-08-2012, 13:18
I wonder if this would happen if I hung in a hammock? Can anyone advise?

Tinker
11-08-2012, 13:33
I find hammocking to offer a bit more breathablility than sleeping on the ground. All insulating and cushioning pads (even air mattresses) are a natural vapor barrier, preventing the moisture produced by your body from escaping beneath you. I always feel clammy underneath my body when sleeping on the ground.
Hammocking requires a lot more attention to insulating underneath than does ground camping. You will need insulation underneath in nearly all weather conditions below 60 degrees F. You could use a system like mine, at left, but you need to make sure that the sleeping bag does not hang below the bottom of the hammock or there will be an air gap which your body cannot heat. Underquilts are somewhat adjustable but require some fiddling as well. In extremely warm conditions hammocks cannot be beat ("beaten" is correct but looks and sounds funny, even to me). Cool air can completely surround your body.
Additionally: Polypropylene is as hydrophobic a fiber as I know. It does not wick well but is a great insulator. That could contribute to your clamminess.
Nylon fabric is not nearly as hydrophobic. It will wick some of your body moisture into itself and hold it near your body.
Silk is probably a good solution, though I never advocate the use of a bag liner, because it is a single use item and will not keep you warm if you have to leave it during the night (nor the next morning). Silk pajamas or long johns might be the ticket, though.
Merino wool is what I use, because I've had trouble laundering silk in the past (gets stiff - I probably did it wrong), and wool wicks well. Merino is expensive, so I buy the least expensive I can find, and assume that more expensive items may be softer (I sometimes get a little itch, but it's not at all bad).

Tinker
11-08-2012, 13:40
Oh, yes (and this might sound ridiculously simple), using a 20 degree sleeping bag in 40 degree weather will giveall but the coldest sleeper fits -covered, you will be too warm, uncovered you will be too cold. One possible solution would be to uncover your torso and wear a light jacket in place of the sleeping bag. It is not likely that your legs will overheat if you keep them in the bag.
Try that at home in similar conditions. See if it works for you.
In summer, when doing short trips when I am confident that nights will be warm I often leave my sleeping bag at home and sleep in a fleece vest and long johns, usually bringing a light down jacket just in case the weather forecasters are wrong (unlikely, right? :rolleyes:).

Drybones
11-08-2012, 15:22
Sounds like a lot of clothing and too low temp bag for conditions. Your skin needs to breathe as there is normal perspiration from your skin.

+1...too much clothing, especially on the lower half. At those temperatures I'd sleep in boxers & tee shirt and have the bag unzipped half way. You don't want to start the cycle by sweating the first time, once you sweat you'll most likely get chilled afterwards.

shelb
11-08-2012, 23:59
Before last summer, I, too, had issues with alternating between clammy and cold. Last summer during my 120 mile hike, my cotton sleeping clothes were my extravagant item. While I realize cotton isn't the best choice, I only brought a cotton tank top and boxer shorts to sleep in, and it made all the difference (this was in July in Pennsylvania). I do feel that silk or wool would be better; however, for summer wear it would be necessary to get very light-weight wear. Someone told me that Lands End has a very light-weight silk long-underwear that would be suitable for summer PJ use as well as for long-underwear use during the other seasons. I haven't checked this out yet...

jeffmeh
11-09-2012, 14:55
Merino 150 works for me even when it is hot. Years ago I thought the technical synthetics were a fantastic innovation. Merino wool is better.

Creek Dancer
11-09-2012, 15:02
Merino 150 works for me even when it is hot. Years ago I thought the technical synthetics were a fantastic innovation. Merino wool is better.

I agree. I even hike in a short sleeve merino wool shirt in the summer. Dries quickly and keeps the funk down too.

Prime Time
11-09-2012, 18:10
I agree. I even hike in a short sleeve merino wool shirt in the summer. Dries quickly and keeps the funk down too.
How does Merino wool for a base layer hold up over time? Can you throw it in the commercial dryer? I'm thru hiking starting next March and would love to bring my Ibex 150 top and bottom instead of my Capilene but I'm afraid the dryers would wreck them.

Creek Dancer
11-09-2012, 18:41
How does Merino wool for a base layer hold up over time? Can you throw it in the commercial dryer? I'm thru hiking starting next March and would love to bring my Ibex 150 top and bottom instead of my Capilene but I'm afraid the dryers would wreck them.

I wash my Ibex in a washing machine, but I let it hang dry. I am too afraid that it will shrink if I put it in the dryer, so I've never tried. They dry overnight though. I do put my smartwool socks in the dryer and they didn't shrink.

Slosteppin
11-09-2012, 20:20
How does Merino wool for a base layer hold up over time? Can you throw it in the commercial dryer? I'm thru hiking starting next March and would love to bring my Ibex 150 top and bottom instead of my Capilene but I'm afraid the dryers would wreck them.

Have you looked at the washing instructions?

I've been wearing Icebreaker 150 wt tees for a year now. Washing instructions say to hang dry. On a 12 night hike in August I washed on twice- once in a shower and once in Lake Superior. Both times I it was dry in a few hours hanging on a tree branch.

MuddyWaters
11-09-2012, 20:28
I agree, sounds like too much insul for conditions, whether clothing or bag.
warm and clammy, is warm and SWEATY

MuddyWaters
11-09-2012, 20:31
I get all itchy and restless in those conditions. Humid and too much bag to cover with, not enouh to stay uncovered. Its why I bought a summer quilt, temps in upper 50s and above drove me nuts until wee hours when body cools down enough to sleep comfortably.

-SEEKER-
11-09-2012, 20:31
Less clothes.

I agree with this comment. I always had cold feet when I wore socks, then my Brother told me to sleep as near naked as I felt comfortable so the sleeping bag could do it's job. It works for me. (female)

dink
11-09-2012, 21:48
I used to have the same issues in a tent (years and years of it) Switched to a hammock and don't seem to have the issues any longer...the only thing that helped in the tent was silk boxers NO long pants to sleep in and not such a low temp sleeping bag either (I'm a hot sleeper anyway). Good luck finding your warm dry sleep combo.

Cozy
11-10-2012, 19:15
Thanks everyone. I'm going to get a pair of silk shorts and long johns and also try a silk liner. Does anyone think the higher R value of my Thermarest neo xlite (women's has a higher r value than the unisex one). This mattress reflects the body heat back at you. I wonder if I can sleep on the opposite side of the pad (turn it upside down) and see if that makes a difference as well. What do you think?

Cozy
11-17-2012, 18:49
Well, I think I found the answer to my own question. I was trying out a backpacking hammock and put the WM's Thermarest Neo Xlite with the R-Value of 3.9 in it. Immediately, the mattress was heating my backside up (really, too much) and I recognized I was about to get that clammy feeling again. So I pulled the mattress out and flipped it over and tried it that way. Much better.

I know this WM's version reflects body heat back up to you, even if you have a Thermarest sheet on it. I guess I will be flipping the mattress over from now.