View Full Version : latest news about changes for Thru-hikers in the Smokies.
I received the following e-mail today from the NPS public affairs reguarding changes for 2013 for transiting the Great Smokey Mt National Park along the Appalachian trail as an AT thru-hiker.
Quote
"There will be a $20 flat fee for AT Thru hikers. They currently have 7 days to get through the park. That will not change.
AT thru hikers will not have to specify at which shelters they will stay on which nights.
The ATC is currently working to get updated information to AT guidebook publishers." Unquote
I guess this means that if you are in the class of 2013 you will at some point like the NOC or Fontana call the park or use a computer, have your credit card ready, pay the 20 bucks. You pick your start date and they will give you 7 days to get through the park. They do state on the NPS web page that if you get into bad weather in the park they will adjust your dates.
The gsmnp web page under the left side management section has most of this information, they said they will update the"frequently asked questions" to reflect the info for thru-hikers soon.
Seven day limit, hope you don't have to hole up due to weather or decide to take a few zeros in Gatlinburg.
Thanks for the info, Moldy!
RWheeler
11-20-2012, 14:22
If thru-hikers have to pay, I sure hope that eliminates the dayhiker priority in shelters. That's bollocks if you ask me.
some challenges for the NPS and for thru hikers:
NPS: how will this be enforced? will they have AT ridge runners or AT shelter caretakers like GMC does in Vermont?
AT Thru hikers: I have no issue paying the $20, glad to help fund park maintenance and opns if I use the trail. But, it is many times not easy to predict your daily mileage in that park on the AT and what shelters u will stay at on what nights. Weather and physical condition dictates daily mileage. Where will hikers fill out the reservation and pay the $20? Will there be a kiosk at Fontana or Davenport Gap for thru hikers to electronically file this info and pay the fee? It's not practical to expect thru hikers to travel off the trail to one of the current GSMNP visitor centers to take care of all this.
lukabrazi
11-20-2012, 15:20
Like Moldy said, I don't mind paying. I just don't want to have to estimate when iII will be there so I can do it in advance or have to leave the trail to find a ranger station. Im not familiar with the area so maybe finding a station is no big deal.
Blissful
11-20-2012, 15:43
Just curious that we only ever had 7 days to go through (stating the policy as "unchanged")? That's news to me...
Blissful
11-20-2012, 15:44
Thru Hikers don't like paying fees. It will lead to illegal camping and stealthing, guaranteed.
Southerner
11-20-2012, 15:44
This is a very significant development as, for the first time I am aware of in its history, the AT will no longer be free to use. It also sets a very bad precedent for other management agencies that control access to the AT. I can see the day when every nat'l park, state park, nat'l forest, and wildlife management area through which the trail passes will levy fees and have its own permitting procedures that will make a through-hike a burden financially (as if funding a through-hike is "cheap" now) and cumbersome logistically. Further, I have never understood why these issues have been so vexing in the GSMNP and so easy in Shenandoah NP. They are very similar parks, yet in Shenandoah it's as easy as stopping for four minutes to fill-out a registration slip and standard first-come, first-served at shelters while the entire process is irritating, confusing, and now costly at GSMNP. I hope the ATC will lead the fight against these changes.
Double Wide
11-20-2012, 15:46
So, like.... If I'm still 20 miles short after a week, what are they gonna do? Force me to walk out?
My understanding is that they simply expect a hiker to be through the smokies in 7 days. bad weather, illness or other extenuating circumstances are to be understood as good reasons to take a bit longer. Nobody is standing at the other end checking your start date and slapping your wrist if you took 8 days. What they are trying to avoid with the 7-day policy is a hiker that decides to stop and stay for a few days to rest and enjoy the scenery. As for the $20 - as long as it goes to park maintenance and does not get skimmed for some other purpose, I have no problem paying it.
Blissful
11-20-2012, 15:49
So, like.... If I'm still 20 miles short after a week, what are they gonna do? Force me to walk out?
Yep take the AT on outta there. lol :)
Blissful
11-20-2012, 15:53
Fees are likely necessary with the tremendous use the park gets and the tight budgets the parks face.
But again, many thru hikers are notorious for the give me, I deserve it, attitude. Still there is hope of compliance - they are only two weeks into their thru hike when they reach the Smokies, so the attitude isn't perfected yet. By the Whites, it is.
RWheeler
11-20-2012, 16:08
Just curious that we only ever had 7 days to go through (stating the policy as "unchanged")? That's news to me...
It's news to me, as well. Granted I was through in 3 days this spring, the idea of a hard limit is kinda odd to me. And not something I'd heard before.
Thru Hikers don't like paying fees. It will lead to illegal camping and stealthing, guaranteed.
Especially with the other regulations that exist for thru hikers in the Smokies, I can definitely see people doing this to "protest" the regulations or whatever.
My understanding is that they simply expect a hiker to be through the smokies in 7 days. bad weather, illness or other extenuating circumstances are to be understood as good reasons to take a bit longer. Nobody is standing at the other end checking your start date and slapping your wrist if you took 8 days. What they are trying to avoid with the 7-day policy is a hiker that decides to stop and stay for a few days to rest and enjoy the scenery. As for the $20 - as long as it goes to park maintenance and does not get skimmed for some other purpose, I have no problem paying it.
They just had a SOBO hiker that had to be rescued because they were trying to push through to bad weather. I really don't know why they think the limit promotes any kind of safety, especially after that situation. And I'd have no problem paying the $20, as long as a day hiker/section hiker can't come into the shelter and force me to give up my spot on the platform again.
And I'd have no problem paying the $20, as long as a day hiker/section hiker can't come into the shelter and force me to give up my spot on the platform again.
Or just let me set up my tent, even if there's space at the shelter.
AT Thruhikers pay to stay overnight in Baxter State Park. It's a small price to pay for the privilege to hike Katahdin.
Pedaling Fool
11-20-2012, 17:55
If thru-hikers have to pay, I sure hope that eliminates the dayhiker priority in shelters. That's bollocks if you ask me.No, it will not change. Everyone pays now so it's a non-issue, in other words everyone is equal in that respect.
The whole point of non-thru's having priority in the shelter is because they reserved it; that's the way it has always been and this policy doesn't change it. If a thru-hiker tries to say use the first come, first served, then he is taking someone's reserved spot, assuming everyone is there for the night.
Plodderman
11-20-2012, 19:54
Good Point Double Wide. It is not that difficult to get through the Smokies in seven days but I hate it when limits are put on the hike.
Lone Wolf
11-20-2012, 20:01
Good Point Double Wide. It is not that difficult to get through the Smokies in seven days but I hate it when limits are put on the hike.
but you make a CHOICE to thru-hike. gotta deal with the rules. you could skip the park too.
AT Thruhikers pay to stay overnight in Baxter State Park. It's a small price to pay for the privilege to hike Katahdin.
Baxter State park was purchased and endowed by a private citizen.
Our National Parks were not. They really are our Parks.
Our national musuem -- The Smithsonian -- has free admission for all, and rightfully so IMHO. Ask yourself why some found that so important.
Then ask yourself why that same reasoning should not apply to other National Treasures.
Alligator
11-20-2012, 20:14
Baxter State park was purchased and endowed by a private citizen.
Our National Parks were not. They really are our Parks.
Our national musuem -- The Smithsonian -- has free admission for all, and rightfully so IMHO. Ask yourself why some found that so important.
Then ask yourself why that same reasoning should not apply to other National Treasures.Numerous National Parks in the US have entrance fees and backcountry fees.
Mr Breeze
11-20-2012, 20:43
I Thru Hiked the AT this year, and paid to stay at a few shelter sites. Those of us that chose to Thru hike, and those that are planning to next year are not exempt from fees that any other person or people that are using the areas that require fees. I met quite a few hikers this year that thought just because they were Thru hiking, they should not have to abide by any of the rules regarding fees. Only Day Hikers, or Section Hikers should have to pay. So i don't think it is the fact that Thru Hikers don't like paying fees in my opinion. It is more the mind set and expectation, that because they are Thru hiking, they are entitled to not have to pay.
National Parks are created to remain wild and free and our tax dollars pay for maintaining and preserving them. The Smokeys are also the most visited National Park in the country. Maybe the government should allocate more funds if needed, not impose more fees.
Lone Wolf
11-20-2012, 21:36
National Parks are created to remain wild and free and our tax dollars pay for maintaining and preserving them.
the majority of them ain't free.
AllTheWayToMordor
11-20-2012, 21:48
Our national musuem -- The Smithsonian -- has free admission for all, and rightfully so IMHO. Ask yourself why some found that so important.
Then ask yourself why that same reasoning should not apply to other National Treasures.
National Parks are created to remain wild and free and our tax dollars pay for maintaining and preserving them. The Smokeys are also the most visited National Park in the country. Maybe the government should allocate more funds if needed, not impose more fees.
National parks require entrance fees because they don't receive enough funding to operate without them. If you don't want to pay fees, vote for higher taxes.
National parks require entrance fees because they don't receive enough funding to operate without them. If you don't want to pay fees, vote for higher taxes.
The National Park Service's annual buget is over 2.5 Billion dollars.
My guess is that you would not want the entire cost carried by user fees. If I am right about that, why is that?
Our collective decison (as a society) to charge user fees at NationalParks and not at local libraries (for example) is rooted in our collective values more than in spreadsheet, I think.
I'd keep them free-- as a statement of what we value as a people. If ony we did.
T
Old Boots
11-20-2012, 22:18
What about the senior pass?
SouthMark
11-20-2012, 22:20
National parks require entrance fees because they don't receive enough funding to operate without them. If you don't want to pay fees, vote for higher taxes.
Boy if this only had a LIKE button!
SassyWindsor
11-20-2012, 23:23
If they charged a $1 per car for a couple of weeks they would make more money than a year of hikers. Millions travel through the GSMNP each year.
chiefiepoo
11-20-2012, 23:26
What about the senior pass?
If it is a camping fee, ought to be half price as with other NPS camping fees. Or is this an entry fee? Golden age Pass is free entry. Maybe Supreme Court Justice Roberts can tell us if this is an entry fee or a camping fee.
I sort of hate all this crap but 7 days is PLENTY of time for a thru hiker to get through the park - - most do it in 4 days - - and if it took 8 days, I doubt anyone would say anything to you.
What about the senior pass?
If it is a camping fee, ought to be half price as with other NPS camping fees. Or is this an entry fee? Golden age Pass is free entry. Maybe Supreme Court Justice Roberts can tell us if this is an entry fee or a camping fee.
Or an entry tax or a camping tax.
its neither a camping fee no entry fee....its a toll fee
Alligator
11-20-2012, 23:33
Threads about this new fee have a tendency to go political so I will caution readers now not to go there. Thanks. This thread concerns up to date news on the new fee.
Threads about this new fee have a tendency to go political so I will caution readers now not to go there. Thanks. This thread concerns up to date news on the new fee.
Call it what you want, It is what it is
cliffordbarnabus
11-20-2012, 23:44
any info on what happens if you don't pay and are caught? is your only proof on the trail that little paper carbon copy metal twisty tied thingamajig?
Southerner
11-21-2012, 09:43
any info on what happens if you don't pay and are caught? is your only proof on the trail that little paper carbon copy metal twisty tied thingamajig?
While I haven't read anything specific about penalties for the new system, I would imagine it would be about the same as current penalties: substantial fines, being banned from the park for a period of time, and/or equipment seizure. The metal twisty is currently used at Shenandoah NP, not GSMNP. GSMNP issues a paper receipt that you are expected to carry and show upon request, and that form has a line for your reservation number. That will probably all stay the same.
From the NPS Appalachian Trail National Scenic Trail website:
http://www.nps.gov/appa/planyourvisit/feesandreservations.htm
Fees & Reservations
ENTRANCE FEE:
The Appalachian Trail is free for all to enjoy. No fees, memberships, or permits are required to walk on the Trail. However, the A.T. passes through numerous state and national parks, forests and public lands, a few of which charge fees or require permits or reservations to park or to stay overnight in shelters or campsites. Below is a list of where some permits and fees are charged.
OVERNIGHT PERMITS AND FEES:
Great Smoky Mountains National Park (Tennessee/North Carolina) - A permit must be obtained before entering the park. There is a self-registration facility at the Fontana Dam visitor center. Forms and a deposit box are also available at the "Fontana Hilton" for northbounders. Southbounders - you can get a permit at Bluff Mountain Outfitters in Hot Springs, or 1.3 miles east on Tenn. 32 from Davenport Gap at the Big Creek Ranger Station. Section-hikers (considered to be anyone not beginning and ending a hike at least 50 miles outside the park) can make reservations by calling GSMNP Reservations Office at (865) 436-1231. Anyone caught without a permit will be issued a $125 ticket!
Shelter Policy - Park regulations require that you stay in a shelter. While other backpackers must make reservations to use backcountry shelters, thru-hikers are exempt. From Mar. 15 to June 15, four spaces at each A.T. shelter are reserved for thru-hikers. If the shelter is full, thru-hikers can tent close by. Only thru-hikers are allowed to tent next to shelters, so they are responsible for making room for those who have reservations in the shelters.
There are overnight permits & Fees for Shenandoah National Park (Virginia), Green Mountain National Forest/Green Mountain Club (Vermont) , White Mountain National Forest/Appalachian Mountain Club (New Hampshire) and Baxter State Park (Maine)
Tumbleweed
I heard they were installing an automated ticket dispenser like those you see on turnpikes. There will be a gate at the other end and you insert your ticket, pay the fee and the gate will lift up. It seems to work on toll roads. Will they take EZ-pass?
SawnieRobertson
11-21-2012, 11:36
I like to visit Gatlinburg, resupply, enjoy a healthy meal at Calhouns. The seven-day rule has been in place for a long time. Adherence to it is difficult and fun-depleting for an old, slow hiker like me, so I did what I wanted to do--went to Gatlinburg. I don't like the precedent of the pay-for-walk, but enforcing the seven-day rule (which should be only a guideline) is nasty. Usually, there is a trade off. $20 exchange for longer or gone-to-Gatlinburg interruption would please me. How about a $10 fee at each of the N or S entrances and at Newfound Gap?--Kinnickinic
Odd Man Out
11-21-2012, 11:54
...AT thru hikers will not have to specify at which shelters they will stay on which nights... They do state on the NPS web page that if you get into bad weather in the park they will adjust your dates....
It seems odd that despite these comments in the OP, several replies complained about having to predict what shelters they will stay at or being delayed beyond their seven days due to weather.
Also, the park is not allowed to charge a fee for driving through the park on the road, as per the original agreement establishing the park. http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/whyfree.htm
Finally, I'm not sure why people feel this needs to be so complicated or such a burden. Right now, when I visit a NF, I go to a un-staffed registration kiosk. I fill out the form. One copy stays with me (my permit), the other copy goes in the box with my money. If I get caught without a permit, or if they find I registered without paying, they track me down. Absolutely no different than the current self-registration system, except you stick a 20$ bill in the pipe when you register. Of course they could also put in an automated registration machine that takes credit cards (as countless bus stations, parking garages, etc.. do) for those who can't be bothered to carry a 20$ bill.
Plodderman
11-21-2012, 12:18
No problem with the rules Lone Wolf just do not like limits but if a limit is set I follow it.
lonehiker
11-21-2012, 13:46
Ya this isn't complicated at all. Pay your fee when you enter the area, probably at a self-registration kiosk that will require cash or check. When asked to provide proof of payment show it to the respective staff. If you have gone over "limit" because of weather, that said staff lives in the area and will be aware of that situation. If you choose to ignore the fee, be prepared to pay fine. Actually quite simple.....
As far as the shelters go that is just as simple. If all 4 Thru-hiker spots are full and you get bumped by someone with a reservation, simply set up your tent that you should be carrying anyway....
Damn, I'm on a roll, maybe I should tackle our 16 trillion dollar debt issue..... :)
Southerner
11-21-2012, 13:54
There are overnight permits & Fees for Shenandoah National Park (Virginia), Green Mountain National Forest/Green Mountain Club (Vermont) , White Mountain National Forest/Appalachian Mountain Club (New Hampshire) and Baxter State Park (Maine)
Tumbleweed
[/TABLE]
Shenandoah NP -- Free, self-registration permit (and very convenient as the kiosks are right on the trail)
Green Mts. / White Mtns. -- Certain shelters and designated campsites as well as all huts are fee areas. However, a hiker wishing to avoid paying or doing work-for-stay can plan around the fee areas by either staying at free shelters / free designated campsites or by camping legally outside the clearly marked confines of fee areas. Of course, camping legally and away from fee areas gets to be a big challenge in the parts of the Presidentials above the treeline, and many hikers (both section and through) resort to stealth camping, but free and legal can be done and has been done.
Baxter SP - Many hikers every year enter the park, summit, and exit the park (either on foot or in vehicles with Maine plates) in the same day avoiding paying any fees. I think most people would rather just pay to camp, but it is possible to avoid fees without doing anything extreme.
As demonstrated, the fees referenced in other areas are avoidable, whereas the new fee in the GSMNP is unavoidable for a through-hiker. That means that it can no longer truly be said that it is free to hike the AT. And I am willing to bet that other agencies (Shenandoah NP, national forests, state parks, state game lands) will eventually follow suit with fees just for accessing the trail. I guess it has always been a paradigm of mine that the AT should be free, but it shouldn't be too surprising to see this change in light of current fiscal challenges.
It seems odd that despite these comments in the OP, several replies complained about having to predict what shelters they will stay at or being delayed beyond their seven days due to weather.
Also, the park is not allowed to charge a fee for driving through the park on the road, as per the original agreement establishing the park. http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/whyfree.htm
Finally, I'm not sure why people feel this needs to be so complicated or such a burden. Right now, when I visit a NF, I go to a un-staffed registration kiosk. I fill out the form. One copy stays with me (my permit), the other copy goes in the box with my money. If I get caught without a permit, or if they find I registered without paying, they track me down. Absolutely no different than the current self-registration system, except you stick a 20$ bill in the pipe when you register. Of course they could also put in an automated registration machine that takes credit cards (as countless bus stations, parking garages, etc.. do) for those who can't be bothered to carry a 20$ bill.
WOW i was unaware of the NO FEES FOR CARS AGREEMENT. If that is the case it is absolutely WRONG to charge a hiker to use a trail that runs through the park. I am not sure and maybe some one can correct me if I am wrong, but does nt trail clubs maintain the trails and shelters. What is the fees for?
swjohnsey
11-21-2012, 16:42
WOW i was unaware of the NO FEES FOR CARS AGREEMENT. If that is the case it is absolutely WRONG to charge a hiker to use a trail that runs through the park. I am not sure and maybe some one can correct me if I am wrong, but does nt trail clubs maintain the trails and shelters. What is the fees for?
The fee will pay the salaries of the folks who collect the fees. Well, maybe not. Probably ain't enough thru-hikers to pay the salaries of the folks who collect the fees. Go figure!
From the NPS Appalachian Trail National Scenic Trail website:
http://www.nps.gov/appa/planyourvisit/feesandreservations.htm
Fees & Reservations
ENTRANCE FEE:
The Appalachian Trail is free for all to enjoy. No fees, memberships, or permits are required to walk on the Trail. However, the A.T. passes through numerous state and national parks, forests and public lands, a few of which charge fees or require permits or reservations to park or to stay overnight in shelters or campsites. Below is a list of where some permits and fees are charged.
OVERNIGHT PERMITS AND FEES:
Great Smoky Mountains National Park (Tennessee/North Carolina) - A permit must be obtained before entering the park. There is a self-registration facility at the Fontana Dam visitor center. Forms and a deposit box are also available at the "Fontana Hilton" for northbounders. Southbounders - you can get a permit at Bluff Mountain Outfitters in Hot Springs, or 1.3 miles east on Tenn. 32 from Davenport Gap at the Big Creek Ranger Station. Section-hikers (considered to be anyone not beginning and ending a hike at least 50 miles outside the park) can make reservations by calling GSMNP Reservations Office at (865) 436-1231. Anyone caught without a permit will be issued a $125 ticket!
Shelter Policy - Park regulations require that you stay in a shelter. While other backpackers must make reservations to use backcountry shelters, thru-hikers are exempt. From Mar. 15 to June 15, four spaces at each A.T. shelter are reserved for thru-hikers. If the shelter is full, thru-hikers can tent close by. Only thru-hikers are allowed to tent next to shelters, so they are responsible for making room for those who have reservations in the shelters.
There are overnight permits & Fees for Shenandoah National Park (Virginia), Green Mountain National Forest/Green Mountain Club (Vermont) , White Mountain National Forest/Appalachian Mountain Club (New Hampshire) and Baxter State Park (Maine)
Tumbleweed
As most already know there is NO fee to hike the SNP. FREE permit required... but just give it some time... IF the GSMNP can begin getting fees for hiking you can bet that the SNP will soon follow... as well as other sections...just wait
the fee will pay the salaries of the folks who collect the fees. Well, maybe not. Probably ain't enough thru-hikers to pay the salaries of the folks who collect the fees. Go figure!
yep.......
Pedaling Fool
11-21-2012, 17:44
The fee will pay the salaries of the folks who collect the fees. Well, maybe not. Probably ain't enough thru-hikers to pay the salaries of the folks who collect the fees. Go figure!
It's not just thru-hikers, it's all backcountry users and thru-hikers are very much a minority. However, still probably won't be enough to pay for this new system, but that's what taxes are for...
Would be curious to know on average how much the park will be collecting each year from backcountry users.
ChuckBrown
11-21-2012, 18:21
If you go into gatlinburg, you are technically leaving the park, would your seven days reset at newfound gap?
Southerner
11-21-2012, 19:28
If you go into gatlinburg, you are technically leaving the park, would your seven days reset at newfound gap?
My understanding is that the seven days would not reset at Newfound Gap because you left the park, but the period would not be tolled, either (i.e. the clock would keep ticking while you were in Gatlinburg). Fortunately, even with a good break in Gatlinburg or Cherokee, I doubt many through-hikers will have any trouble clearing the park in the week allotted given decent weather, and, as has been mentioned several times above, there would supposedly be leniency in case of bad weather.
Pendragon
11-21-2012, 22:57
Personally, I have no desire to try and sleep on a hard floor crammed in next to snoring strangers, so hopefully I can dilly-dally if need be to ensure that these shelters are full by the time I arrive so that I can hang my hammock in peace. If it's "impact" they are worried about they should be more than happy to let me hang. In my hammock, that is.
max patch
11-21-2012, 23:43
If you go into gatlinburg, you are technically leaving the park, would your seven days reset at newfound gap?
The 7 rule, which was ignored, also included the rule that you could not leave the park during the 7 days. This, of course, was also ignored.
This thread is in the thru-hiker q&a forum. There is another thread titled "$4 still a go" in the GSMNP forum. Don't confuse the two.
As others have pointed out nothing has changed for thru-hikers except now starting in March or April they will have to pay $20.
The 7 day rule is to insure that a thru-hiker (who is already getting special consideration) doesn't stop for a few days to "refill his tank" or other wise just enjoy oneself. If you ask a ranger about this rule they mostly just shrug. If someone enters the park on a thru and keeps moving and takes a couple of days longer than the 7 to get through then nobody is going to care.
The bottom line is that if your going to "campout" in the Park then don't declare yourself a thru and just register as a backcountry hiker and pay the $4 per day. 'But then of course you will have to make reservations at specific sites for each night spent in the Park.' <And there is the rub.
ChuckBrown
11-22-2012, 06:40
Thanks southerner, if I remember, on my thru I made it to newfound on day three, spent two nights in g burg, I know for sure it only took me two days to get to davenport from newfound. So that put me right at seven days total
fireneck
11-25-2012, 02:45
This thread is in the thru-hiker q&a forum. There is another thread titled "$4 still a go" in the GSMNP forum. Don't confuse the two.
As others have pointed out nothing has changed for thru-hikers except now starting in March or April they will have to pay $20.
The 7 day rule is to insure that a thru-hiker (who is already getting special consideration) doesn't stop for a few days to "refill his tank" or other wise just enjoy oneself. If you ask a ranger about this rule they mostly just shrug. If someone enters the park on a thru and keeps moving and takes a couple of days longer than the 7 to get through then nobody is going to care.
The bottom line is that if your going to "campout" in the Park then don't declare yourself a thru and just register as a backcountry hiker and pay the $4 per day. 'But then of course you will have to make reservations at specific sites for each night spent in the Park.' <And there is the rub.
Quoted for Truthiness.
Oh made a political reference! Sorry didn't mean to troll this thread again. B)
So, like.... If I'm still 20 miles short after a week, what are they gonna do? Force me to walk out?
If you want to take more than seven days you can, but you do so as a section hiker, and pay the fees a section hiker would pay. They figure if you take more than seven days, you are not thru hiking, you are loitering.
alxflwrs
11-25-2012, 22:58
If you want to take more than seven days you can, but you do so as a section hiker, and pay the fees a section hiker would pay. They figure if you take more than seven days, you are not thru hiking, you are loitering.
The idea jesse, and the problem a lot of people have in this thread, is that the AT was established first as the "peoples trail" and its, frankly, infringing on me hiking my hike for them to say taking more than seven days to cross over a hundred miles "loitering"...
MuddyWaters
11-26-2012, 00:25
It should only take a conditioned thru hiker 4-5 days to go thru GSMNP on AT unless they are injured. Its only 68-73 miles depending on the source you believe.
Personally, I cant see why anyone would want to visit Gatlinburg after only 2 days in the park, but apparently many do. Planning your resupply at Fontana Dam so you dont need to would seem to be wise.
Just avoid the park, especially if you are section hiking. I found it very over-rated. Not really anything better than you see for miles on either side of the park. Not a popular opinion, but I wouldn't pay to go back.
Different Socks
11-26-2012, 01:01
From the NPS Appalachian Trail National Scenic Trail website:
http://www.nps.gov/appa/planyourvisit/feesandreservations.htm
Fees & Reservations
ENTRANCE FEE:
The Appalachian Trail is free for all to enjoy. No fees, memberships, or permits are required to walk on the Trail. However, the A.T. passes through numerous state and national parks, forests and public lands, a few of which charge fees or require permits or reservations to park or to stay overnight in shelters or campsites. Below is a list of where some permits and fees are charged.
OVERNIGHT PERMITS AND FEES:
Great Smoky Mountains National Park (Tennessee/North Carolina) - A permit must be obtained before entering the park. There is a self-registration facility at the Fontana Dam visitor center. Forms and a deposit box are also available at the "Fontana Hilton" for northbounders. Southbounders - you can get a permit at Bluff Mountain Outfitters in Hot Springs, or 1.3 miles east on Tenn. 32 from Davenport Gap at the Big Creek Ranger Station. Section-hikers (considered to be anyone not beginning and ending a hike at least 50 miles outside the park) can make reservations by calling GSMNP Reservations Office at (865) 436-1231. Anyone caught without a permit will be issued a $125 ticket!
Shelter Policy - Park regulations require that you stay in a shelter. While other backpackers must make reservations to use backcountry shelters, thru-hikers are exempt. From Mar. 15 to June 15, four spaces at each A.T. shelter are reserved for thru-hikers. If the shelter is full, thru-hikers can tent close by. Only thru-hikers are allowed to tent next to shelters, so they are responsible for making room for those who have reservations in the shelters.
There are overnight permits & Fees for Shenandoah National Park (Virginia), Green Mountain National Forest/Green Mountain Club (Vermont) , White Mountain National Forest/Appalachian Mountain Club (New Hampshire) and Baxter State Park (Maine)
Tumbleweed
So if 4 spaces are for thru hikers that don't need a reservation, and say 3--4 other spots are taken by additional thru hikers and then some weekend person shows up and says he/she made a reservation for a spot, would it be wrong to ask them to provide proof before you have to give up your spot as a thru hiker and sleep on the ground?
So if 4 spaces are for thru hikers that don't need a reservation, and say 3--4 other spots are taken by additional thru hikers and then some weekend person shows up and says he/she made a reservation for a spot, would it be wrong to ask them to provide proof before you have to give up your spot as a thru hiker and sleep on the ground?
Of course not. Best done in a friendly way, though.
Tipi Walter
11-26-2012, 08:38
This is a very significant development as, for the first time I am aware of in its history, the AT will no longer be free to use. It also sets a very bad precedent for other management agencies that control access to the AT. I can see the day when every nat'l park, state park, nat'l forest, and wildlife management area through which the trail passes will levy fees and have its own permitting procedures that will make a through-hike a burden financially (as if funding a through-hike is "cheap" now) and cumbersome logistically.
I've been saying this all along. People who are for the fees are in a state of Acquiescence and don't see their rule fervor as setting a bad precedent for further fee increases along the AT. Will the fee lovers be as gleeful when the entire AT charges $5 per night for every overnighter on the trail?
Fees are likely necessary with the tremendous use the park gets and the tight budgets the parks face.
But again, many thru hikers are notorious for the give me, I deserve it, attitude. Still there is hope of compliance - they are only two weeks into their thru hike when they reach the Smokies, so the attitude isn't perfected yet. By the Whites, it is.
This is a strange comment since the "tremendous use" the park gets is mostly in cars which are not charged and have unlimited access to the Park, the most air polluted park in the country. Weird, ain't it?
National parks require entrance fees because they don't receive enough funding to operate without them. If you don't want to pay fees, vote for higher taxes.
The GSMNP does not have an entrance fee. Why not? Why focus on overnight backpackers and not a $20 fee for every car and motorcycle entering the Park?
WOW i was unaware of the NO FEES FOR CARS AGREEMENT. If that is the case it is absolutely WRONG to charge a hiker to use a trail that runs through the park. I am not sure and maybe some one can correct me if I am wrong, but does nt trail clubs maintain the trails and shelters. What is the fees for?
You've got the right headgear on---Yes there's a No Fee For Cars agreement. Charging just backpackers IS wrong.
Just avoid the park, especially if you are section hiking. I found it very over-rated. Not really anything better than you see for miles on either side of the park. Not a popular opinion, but I wouldn't pay to go back.
I've been saying this all along too. Go to the Cohuttas or Big Frog, get on the BMT from Georgia to the Park, go to the Mt Rogers backcountry, go to Shining Rock, check out all the trails in the Pisgah or Cherokee or Jefferson or Nantahala or Chattahoochee national forests, go into the Snowbird backcountry. There are millions of acres available for backpacking with no fees or permits or vouchers or provisios or affidavits or attestations or warrants or subpoenas or injunctions or decrees or mandates or summons or what the heck ever else the nanny Tent Police have up their sleeves to curtail access to our god-given Lands.
Hill Ape
11-26-2012, 22:54
tipi is right on, this fee will spread to the other parks, and they will only increase over time. just watch it happen, theres really nothing you can do to stop it. its inevitable, in twenty years, it'll cost, every mile, every campsite.
i'm waiting for park management to be contracted out to for profit corporations, don't kid yourselves, it will happen.
MuddyWaters
11-26-2012, 23:50
tipi is right on, this fee will spread to the other parks, and they will only increase over time. just watch it happen, theres really nothing you can do to stop it. its inevitable, in twenty years, it'll cost, every mile, every campsite.
i'm waiting for park management to be contracted out to for profit corporations, don't kid yourselves, it will happen.
I think yall got it backwards.
It already exists at other parks.
It finally spread to this one.
Grand Canyon - yep
Rocky Mtn Natl Park - yep
Carlsbad Caverns - yep
Yellowstone - yep
Black Canyon of the Gunnison - yep
Big Bend - yep
Most national parks and monuments out west - yep
In most of these places you have to pay $15-25 just to drive in.
Hill Ape
11-26-2012, 23:59
indeed, i was talking only about the AT, none of that is news to me
alxflwrs
12-02-2012, 19:11
how many people do you think are on the trail checking passes?
i'll probably not pay in protest and try to just ninja stealth hike thru the park in a couple nights.
does that sound too bad/
Tipi Walter
12-02-2012, 19:27
I think yall got it backwards.
It already exists at other parks.
It finally spread to this one.
Grand Canyon - yep
Rocky Mtn Natl Park - yep
Carlsbad Caverns - yep
Yellowstone - yep
Black Canyon of the Gunnison - yep
Big Bend - yep
Most national parks and monuments out west - yep
In most of these places you have to pay $15-25 just to drive in.
So let's charge 20 bucks a car going into the Smokies. I'm all for it. Or close the roads.
SawnieRobertson
12-02-2012, 19:27
how many people do you think are on the trail checking passes?
i'll probably not pay in protest and try to just ninja stealth hike thru the park in a couple nights.
does that sound too bad/ Some, though seasoned, cannot make the distance in seven days, particularly if carrying food for seven days. I am one of those. Still, we must realize that, when we break the rules deliberately, the NPS categorizes our actions as being the actions of all thruhikers. Unfortunately, when signing up with them not as a thru, we have to get permits that specify which shelter we will be at on which night. It surely takes the fun out of the whole thing, doesn't it.--Kinnickinic
NinjaFace
12-03-2012, 00:21
Part of UN Agenda 21 ?
MuddyWaters
12-04-2012, 19:45
Some, though seasoned, cannot make the distance in seven days, particularly if carrying food for seven days. I am one of those. Still, we must realize that, when we break the rules deliberately, the NPS categorizes our actions as being the actions of all thruhikers. Unfortunately, when signing up with them not as a thru, we have to get permits that specify which shelter we will be at on which night. It surely takes the fun out of the whole thing, doesn't it.--Kinnickinic
I dont think its uncommon to run into a ridgerunner/caretaker/park employee during thru-hiker season.
Much of the rest of the year, aside from thru hiker season, no one pays a lot of attention to it because shelters arent over-crowded.
You make reservations that are conservative, then if you can get a phone signal and there is room ahead, you can move them forward.
Or some do just take their chances.
It will never come up , unless a shelter is overfull of people all claiming to have reservations.
Duramax22
12-04-2012, 20:23
I dont mind paying the $20. the thing that worries me is, will this extra money actually be kept in gsmnp and not floated to another park or even worse to the federal government because i have a terrible feeling that through federal BS it will be shipped away.
Just a Hiker
12-04-2012, 20:53
Some folks have asked about the Senior Pass, so now I have a question. I have the Lifetime Access Pass for all National Parks and Federal Recreation areas, so does this mean I'll have to pay as well, or is this something they haven't ironed out yet? I'll pay the $20 if I have to....just thought someone might know.
alxflwrs
12-05-2012, 02:19
If you have a Lifetime Access Pass I think it is the nature of the program that is is FREE for those who qualify. If I were you I would especially not get one. I hate to be "that guy" and make a bad name for thru-hikers everywhere--but if they're going to generalize my actions to everyone elses thats their hang up...not mine. I'll take my chances on getting in trouble...I need some extra thrill on the trail.
Hill Ape
12-05-2012, 03:01
i don't think they've ironed anything out yet, this first year will be a steep learning curve, expect some growing pains. vibe i'm getting is work with them they will work with you. what is said this year, may or may not apply next year. once they've identified and clarified all the what ifs, things will smooth out. until then, have $20, maybe a little more, set aside. have 7 days, but everybody be flexible. all these folks on the internet, are not who you're going to face when the time comes to pay up. thru hikers are not the only park users, GASP!! and we're not the most important park users. GSMP is trying to implement a new system for all backcountry users, thats no small task. just play it by ear.
U.S. citizens 62 or older can purchase a $10 lifetime Senior Pass. http://www.doi.gov/tourists/get-a-pass.cfm
If you qualify this seems like the way to go.
I'd like to see what happens the first time they stop a senior with one of these passes that didn't pay the fee.
max patch
12-05-2012, 09:52
Seems clear to me that the Senior Pass isn't going to let you get off the hook for paying the $20 max reservation fee.
max patch
12-05-2012, 09:55
[FONT=Verdana]U.S. citizens 62 or older can purchase a $10 lifetime Senior Pass. http://www.doi.gov/tourists/get-a-pass.cfm
If you qualify this seems like the way to go.
I'd like to see what happens the first time they stop a senior with one of these passes that didn't pay the fee. [/fineFONT]
Well, the reservation they are trying to make will be voided when they don't complete the payment screen. So what happens would be whatever happens to someone they catch camping illegally - a fine.
Seems clear to me that the Senior Pass isn't going to let you get off the hook for paying the $20 max reservation fee.
I'd say you will be correct on this point, but there is a chance it might be half price. For seniors with that pass (and I'm one of them), camping is often 50% of the stated price in National Parks and National Forests.
hikehunter
12-10-2012, 23:32
I was in the GSMNP in July 2012 at Ice Water shelter....we had reservation for 8 hikers doing a 4 day hike....the shelter is rated for 12... there wer 14 in the shelter and two guys on the ground out front. the two guys were thru hikers that I have seen on youtube....the two that over filled the shelter were not thru hikers and had no reservation. there were three guys that came and left at sunset for the next north bound shelter... as I walked with them to Charles Bunion they said it was over crowded like all the others they came to in the park from Fontana. they were only going to harpers....
As a section hiker I will help make room for any hiker along the trail....as for the fees it is something that will keep the parks open and keep the costs lower than some mass tax to fund them....
flemdawg1
12-11-2012, 16:41
The No Fee for Cars agreement was a condition of the US Govt getting the property from TN and NC. There wouldn't be a NP without it. I have to pay to hike in nearly every other NP, so its not a big deal for me. As Walter said there are lots of trails and mtns to hike on that don't require fees.
The trail needs to be re-routed. I consider the park to be an obsticle and not part of the trail.