What do you consider UL avg or Heavy weight pack weight

[Josh Calhoun]

what do you consider to be a ultra light hiker (#-#) a avg weight (#-#) and then what is a over weight pack (#-#)

just curious to hear what yall think. i know its all in ones personal opinion. again this is a fully loaded pack.

[Zippy Morocco]

I would say base weights under 10# ultra light. 10#-20# light weight, 20#-30# average, 30#+ heavy. Winter hiking wouldn't fit in to this. Also these are just numbers in my head and have no basis in reality.

[jakedatc]

You have to go by baseweight because every trip is different and has different food and water needs.. so going with the stuff that always goes is easiest.

i would adjust lightweight to be 10-15, average 15-20, over 20 base is pretty heavy.

[ParkRat09]

Yea I think jakedatc is pretty much on point. I'd add 5-10 pounds to all those number if we're talking middle of winter

[MuddyWaters]

My understanding is its generally defined that a SUL hiker is < 5lbs base wt., a UL < 10 lbs base wt, and lightwt is < 20 lbs basewt.

If someone cant get < 20 lbs basewt, its because they arent trying.

How do you even get >20lb basewt?
4 lb tent
3 lb pad
6 lb pack
4 lb sleeping bag
1 lb stove
2 lb raingear
3 lb insulation clothing
2 lbs spare clothing
2 lbs miscl

=27 lb basewt, and there ARE a few people that carry this , and more

Contrast that to a UL pack:
1.5 lb tent
1 lb pad
2.0 lb pack
1.5 lb sleeping bag
0.25 lb stove
0.75 lb raingear
1 lb insulation clothing
0 lbs spare clothing
1 lbs miscl

=9 lb basewt

[Beast Mode]

My understanding is its generally defined that a SUL hiker is < 5lbs base wt., a UL < 10 lbs base wt, and lightwt is < 20 lbs basewt.

If someone cant get < 20 lbs basewt, its because they arent trying.

How do you even get >20lb basewt?
4 lb tent
3 lb pad
6 lb pack
4 lb sleeping bag
1 lb stove
2 lb raingear
3 lb insulation clothing
2 lbs spare clothing
2 lbs miscl

=27 lb basewt, and there ARE a few people that carry this , and more

Contrast that to a UL pack:
1.5 lb tent
1 lb pad
2.0 lb pack
1.5 lb sleeping bag
0.25 lb stove
0.75 lb raingear
1 lb insulation clothing
0 lbs spare clothing
1 lbs miscl

=9 lb basewt


Your first list is pretty similar to what I started with:

3.5LB tarp and groundtarp
1.5LB pad
4LB sleeping bag
6.5LB pack
1.5LB raingear
3LB fleece, long-sleeve shirt, hat, gloves, extra pair shorts
1LB stakes, cord
.5LB fuel
3 LB misc. (water pump, guide book, first aid, extra zip and garbage bags, spoon, cell+charger, etc.)
2.5 LB (pot, large coffee can pot stand, stove)

=27LB

After a couple months I was down to this until I brought back a little clothing for the last cold week in Maine:

3.5LB tarp and ground tarp
1 LB pad (cut off 1/3)
2 LB sleeping bag (bough a new lighter one)
1.5 LB pack (bought an Osprey Hornet 35)
1 LB raingear (got rid of the pants for summer)
2.5 LB fleece, long sleeve shirt, extra pair shorts (got rid of the hat and gloves for summer)
1 LB stakes cord
.25 LB fuel (started carrying less)
3.5 LB misc. (same as above except switched water pump for AquaMira and started carrying a digital camera)
.75 LB (pot, pot stand, stove -- got a smaller pot and used aluminum foil for a pot stand)

= 17 LB (definitely could have gone a few pounds lighter comfortably if I had the money to spend on a lightweight tarp, even lighter sleeping bag, down jacket instead of old fleece, lighter pad)

[yellowsirocco]

add 5 lbs to peoples figures and you get reality. the average hiker has no clue what their base weight is and people who speak in those terms are biased towards the lightweight side.

Personally in the winter I'm at 40 lbs, spring/fall 30, and summer 25, for my average full load with food and water. I have no clue what my base weight is nor do I care, I take what makes me happy and only what makes me happy and don't fuss over it.

[prain4u]

add 5 lbs to peoples figures and you get reality. the average hiker has no clue what their base weight is and people who speak in those terms are biased towards the lightweight side.

Personally in the winter I'm at 40 lbs, spring/fall 30, and summer 25, for my average full load with food and water. I have no clue what my base weight is nor do I care, I take what makes me happy and only what makes me happy and don't fuss over it.


Overall, I agree with you. I encounter people who (in one online thread) are "bragging" about their low base weight. Yet, in other threads, they will write things such as: "I use this pack--or that sleeping bag--or this pad--this tent--etc." There is no way that they can use those specific pieces of gear and still have base weights as low as they are reporting. The weight of their reported gear is simply too heavy. The same is true out on the trail. A person will brag about their low base weight--but with your own eyes you can see that their gear is heavier than what they are reporting.

[OzJacko]

When I did my hike on the Bib Track last year my pack varied from about 25-26 lbs to 35lbs with one brief peak at about 45lbs (I over indulged on fruit purchase in one town).
I expect my AT pack next year will run between similar limits as I will have a couple of "extras" (e.g. water filtration/treatment) but have a couple of slightly lighter items.
All these were with at least a quart of water and food. The norm was around 30lb. I consider anything under 35lb "light enough".
I am 6 foot and a bit (too much) over 200lbs.
"Light enough" for other people varies. Walk at least 5 miles with differing weights and find out at what weight YOU find it changes from comfortable to uncomfortable.
For me with my Circuit this is about 31-32 lb. I therefore happily start each section with up to 35lb as I know I will have eaten it down below this by the end of the first day.
I am hoping my Catalyst allows me to go up to 35lb with comfort.:)

Don't sweat about it.
Make sure the shelter, bag, stove/fuel and pack are ones in a "light" category and try to be sensible about the rest. As far as I can tell no one finishes with exactly the same gear as they start. Over stressing about your pack will just cause you unnecessary angst. Whether or not you make Katahdin will be based on a lot of factors including your attitude. While few get there with a 40lb plus pack, many starting with one get there. Within 300 miles you will have worked out which of the "little extras" you have you can do without.
Ultralight is something you should work up to.
You should try to start with a pack YOU don't find heavy. Fine tuning your pack contents will be one of your major pastimes for about 5 months.

[Papa D]

It's easier for me to think in terms of total weight with an average amount of water and food than base weight though base weight is certainly more precise due to the fact that food and water fluctuate but I also find that people tend to add "a few more things" on top - extra sweater, etc. so talking in term of what the pack on your back actually weighs seems relevant to me. Here is my rough definition:

Less than 18 pounds total weight (Ultra-Light):

This backpacker has had to really work to be complete and keep the weight down and relies on primarily non-traditional gear, home-made items, and dual-uses - he / she also doesn't have much food and water to spare and has made some sacrifices in shelter, warmth, comfort, and (perhaps) even safety in my opinion but this person may be able to cover so much ground, so fast (especially on a trail like the AT) that they can overcome some of these concerns - I would suggest that in true wilderness conditions, this person is underprepared or just barely squeaking by. A big weather event would be bad for this person.

18-26 pounds total weight (lightweight):

This backpacker is still carrying a lightweight kit but is likely playing with a full deck - assuming they have thought things through, they are ok on shelter, warmth, plenty of food, and safety - they don't have any wasted pounds consumed by luxury items but they have enough to accomplish their goal in most anticipated weather. This person uses a mix of homemade gear (such as an alcohol stove) but also uses lighter-weight traditional gear. This person keeps luxury items to a minimum. With the exception of winter conditions, I typically fall into this category. Most thru-hikers end up somewhere in this weight range.

26-37 pounds total weight (average modern backpacker)

This backpacker pretty much purchases most of their gear at regular outfitter stores and doesn't use much if any home-made, improvised, or purposefully light-weight products. This backpacker has the full kit but has been pretty thoughtful not to replicate too many items. This person likely has what they need and some extra stuff along for the ride and assuming they have the knowledge base can ride out most weather events. This person probably doesn't move particularly fast but likely accomplishes the goal. Most weekend backpackers fall into this category in my opinion - it is also a weight that would probably get you by in most average winter conditions on the AT.

37 - 50 pounds plus total weight (heavy):

This backpacker could fall in a lot of categories:

1) A winter backpacker with plenty of extra food, fuel, and warm clothing
2) A backpacker with very dated gear - older military or old scouting type equipment (this is the dude with the hatchet strapped to his pack with a leather belt)
3) A backpacker who by choice wants to go short distances and add some luxury items - crazy creek chairs, big tent, pillows, etc.
4) A thru hiker with a case of beer
5) A hiker with specialty gear - climbing equipment, someone doing trail work, etc.
6) An inexperienced person packing a lot of stuff and a lot of fears

More than 50 pounds total weight (ultra-heavy):

This would be a very rare hiker indeed - - this would be someone with a lot of specialty gear who would stay out for weeks at a time (Like Tipi Walter with full winter pack and food) or someone on a major expedition with a lot of specialty gear or (of course) a soldier carrying a military pack with guns and ammo.

I met a 2000 miler named "Kitchen Sink" one time - he maxed -out at about 5 miles per day (the name says it all) and his pack was about 70 pounds.

This could also be a very inexperienced person who just puts things in a huge pack without much thought of "how or why"

Naturally, using "total weight", if you are the one toting the case of beer and a bag of ice to the shelter you might start out as a ultra-heavy and hike out ultra-light (with your recycling ;))

[MDSection12]

I'm the guy with a six pack of beer... I could get down to around 25# if I ditched some luxury items, but those IPAs taste so damn good after a day of hiking. :banana

[MuddyWaters]

A lot of peoples pack wt is due to their fears:
Fear they will be cold
Fear they will be wet
Fear they will be hungry
Fear they will be...bitten by a snake, attacked by a bear, attacked by a human, etc.

You wouldnt bring a -10 rated sleeping bag in middle of summer, you know you dont need it
You wouldnt bring 10 days food for a 2 day trip, you know you dont need that either

You do decide what goes in your pack based on what you think you need.
Thats where it gets fuzzy. Some people cannot decide as clearly or as precisely as others, so they bring extra stuff to cover conditions that arent necessary, ....just in case. Or maybe all their gear is designed for the worst conditions they would ever encounter, and they dont want to purchase more stuff. An extra couple of days food, extra clothing, more durable gear items than are necessary, and just-in-case gadgets.

If you are going on a 4 day hike, theres stable high pressure over the part of the country you are in, weather calls for 0% chance of rain due to this. Do you bring raingear? Most would . But why?, you dont need it. Its dead wt. The chances of needing it are virtually nil. In this case the thinking hiker would have a $1 plastic emergency poncho . They would bring what was needed for the conditions, not what they were used to bringing, or scared that they might need.

[Tipi Walter]

[QUOTE=MuddyWaters;1367034]A lot of peoples pack wt is due to their fears:
Fear they will be cold
Fear they will be wet
Fear they will be hungry
Fear they will be...bitten by a snake, attacked by a bear, attacked by a human, etc.

You wouldnt bring a -10 rated sleeping bag in middle of summer, you know you dont need it
You wouldnt bring 10 days food for a 2 day trip, you know you dont need that either

You do decide what goes in your pack based on what you think you need.
/QUOTE]

REPLY
Much of my winter weight is not only in food but in winter garments like Icebreaker tops and balaclava, down pants, down booties and an overkill down parka made by FF. Most backpackers I see in the winter DO NOT carry sufficient clothing for the temps and therefore end up living in their sleeping bags when in camp. The reason I carry so much down clothing is not because I fear the cold but because I'VE BEEN COLD on so many previous trips. It sucks.

WHAT'S HEAVY?
I found an interesting number when I was out a couple years ago on a long trip. It's a number no one wants to know about. I routinely carry a 75 to 80 lb pack but on one trip I loaded it down to 90 lbs and felt a distinct difference and discovered the limits to my backpacking comfort and ability. So, 90 lbs is definitely a number I can't work with, period. Maybe a Navy SEAL can hump 120 lbs but I'm a seal pup and would whine constantly.

[MDSection12]

A friend of mine packed in about 75 lbs on one of our trips. He had a massive pack and had all kinds of luxury items with him like camp chairs, boombox and batteries, hatchet, etc. When it came time to eat he pulled out a bag of about seven cans of Chef Boyardee kind of stuff... He had a great time and seemed completely unaware of the fact that he was 'heavy.' I'm becoming very fond of the mantra around here; 'hike your own hike.'

[Tipi Walter]

A friend of mine packed in about 75 lbs on one of our trips. He had a massive pack and had all kinds of luxury items with him like camp chairs, boombox and batteries, hatchet, etc. When it came time to eat he pulled out a bag of about seven cans of Chef Boyardee kind of stuff... He had a great time and seemed completely unaware of the fact that he was 'heavy.' I'm becoming very fond of the mantra around here; 'hike your own hike.'

On my last short 7 day trip I carried 4 cans of beans which is something I never do but I had my old P-38 to open them with and figure on such a short trip why not just carry some cans and eat good undehydrated food for a change? On short trips a person can carry all his food in cans. Why not?

[Cadenza]

I like to eat while in the woods.
Boil water and pour in a pouch type meals are not my idea of a good time, though I will carry ONE of those as an emergency 'extra day' ration.

My staples are real meat, (steak, sausage, foil pouch tuna, chicken), potatoes, carrots, onion, garlic, sun dried tomatoes, dried beans, rice, pasta, polenta, salt & pepper.
Sometimes I carry one can of chili or beef stew as my last planned meal because I know it will "keep" and not go bad. Also, no critters are going to get into it.
I've never had a bear get into my food, nor do I expect one ever will,....but I did once have otters steal almost everything I had. I figure if otters, racoons, bears, or hunting dogs get into my food bag, I still have one more meal to get me out of the woods.

[MDSection12]

On my last short 7 day trip I carried 4 cans of beans which is something I never do but I had my old P-38 to open them with and figure on such a short trip why not just carry some cans and eat good undehydrated food for a change? On short trips a person can carry all his food in cans. Why not?
The only good response I have is that I don't like canned food that much. :p

[prain4u]

A lot of peoples pack wt is due to their fears:
Fear they will be cold
Fear they will be wet
Fear they will be hungry
Fear they will be...bitten by a snake, attacked by a bear, attacked by a human, etc.

You wouldnt bring a -10 rated sleeping bag in middle of summer, you know you dont need it
You wouldnt bring 10 days food for a 2 day trip, you know you dont need that either

You do decide what goes in your pack based on what you think you need.
Thats where it gets fuzzy. Some people cannot decide as clearly or as precisely as others, so they bring extra stuff to cover conditions that arent necessary, ....just in case. Or maybe all their gear is designed for the worst conditions they would ever encounter, and they dont want to purchase more stuff. An extra couple of days food, extra clothing, more durable gear items than are necessary, and just-in-case gadgets.

If you are going on a 4 day hike, theres stable high pressure over the part of the country you are in, weather calls for 0% chance of rain due to this. Do you bring raingear? Most would . But why?, you dont need it. Its dead wt. The chances of needing it are virtually nil. In this case the thinking hiker would have a $1 plastic emergency poncho . They would bring what was needed for the conditions, not what they were used to bringing, or scared that they might need.

I agree with you to a point--and I disagree with you as well.

I would agree that "fears" and "just in case" are among the bigger reasons for added pack weight. I would also agree that far too many people carry far too much stuff due to "fears" and "just in case".

However, I am not certain that such thinking is necessarily always incorrect or bad. I have a great deal of outdoor survival training and experience. I could probably survive outdoors for many weeks with just the clothes that I am wearing while sitting in front of my computer. Thus, I would technically have a ZERO pack weight. Yet, when I hike, I carry more stuff than just "ZERO"--because it increases my level of comfort and it improves the ease with which I can provide for my needs. I wouldn't say that I carry my additional gear out of "fear".

Adding boiling water to a Mountain House dehydrated meal is a heck of a lot easier (and less time consuming) than catching an animal in a snare, gutting it, skinning it and roasting it over an open fire.

I think the desire for comfort and convenience are just as big of factors as "fear" when it comes to increasing pack weight. It is my contention that many ultralight hikers choose to sacrifice a certain level of comfort and convenience (and safety?) for the sake of a lower weight pack. There is nothing particularly wrong with that. It is just a personal preference.

I might also SOMEWHAT disagree with you on the raingear scenario. This past summer, a friend and I were hiking on Isle Royale in Lake Superior. The FOUR DAY FORECAST (on the morning we started the hike) was zero percent chance of rain for the next four days. The second day of the hike it poured non-stop for for nearly 18 hours. The third day of the hike we had four hours of rain. A $1 emergency poncho would have been a pretty flimsy--and marginal--source of rain protection in such conditions. Frankly, I am glad that we chose to bring our regular rain gear (poncho for me--rainsuit for my hiking partner). We were able to hike in relative comfort even though it was raining for an extended period of time.

Personally, I try to find a balance between the (very good) points that you are making--and the advice of an old Army Sergeant who always used to tell us: "It is better to have it and not need it--than to need it and not have it"

[colorado_rob]

No biggie, but WHY O WHY has this thread morphed into yet another discussion on the benefits/disadvantages on how much gear to bring? There is a specific thread "Thinking Ultralight" where that "discussion" is occurring. The OP asked about commonly agreed to weight definitions for the various classes of pack weight, did he not?

[Tipi Walter]

No biggie, but WHY O WHY has this thread morphed into yet another discussion on the benefits/disadvantages on how much gear to bring? There is a specific thread "Thinking Ultralight" where that "discussion" is occurring. The OP asked about commonly agreed to weight definitions for the various classes of pack weight, did he not?

And I replied that a 90 lb pack is hellish and definitely belongs to a class of its own.

[jakedatc]

Talking about lightweight packs on Whiteblaze is a waste of time

[Prime Time]

No biggie, but WHY O WHY has this thread morphed into yet another discussion on the benefits/disadvantages on how much gear to bring? There is a specific thread "Thinking Ultralight" where that "discussion" is occurring. The OP asked about commonly agreed to weight definitions for the various classes of pack weight, did he not?
It always morphs into this because everyone wants to aggressively defend what they carry in their pack, but long for it to be a lot less.

[MuddyWaters]

I dont care what anyone else brings.

BUt I do take issue with those that attempt to perpetuate that UL is unsafe, risky, uncomfortable, or requires a lot of experience of knowledge, etc.

SUL may require that , not UL, huge huge difference.

UL is not, when you choose gear correctly for your conditions.
Most UL hikers are doing just fine out there, comfortable, safe, and light and fast, most of the year.

There are people out there that are naive or foolish enough to not take the right gear into conditions that warrant it.
Tipi is correct, no doubt some fools do go into winter with too light of gear to be comfortably safe.
Its not smart to pitch a tarp tent on an exposed ridge in high winds, or even a 3 season free standing with no extra guylines

Sure , you can get away with all that with a serious 4 season tent.
But you actually dont NEED that most of the time. You DO some of the time.
Knowing how and when to use what gear, is the key.

In my way of thinking, its not smart to carry more than you need to, and I mean than you need to for your level of comfort.
If overnight temps are 40F, its not smart to lug a 20F bag, unless you dont have a lighter one
If conditions are mild, its not smart to take a shelter for heavy duty conditions, unless you dont have a lighter one
If conditions are bad, it may not be smart to take a UL shelter, unless you have complete confidence and experience to use it as needed to stay safe/dry.
If conditions are extended and cold and wet, it may not even be smart to take down insulation

It all depends on conditions. Fortunately conditions are good enough, much of the year, to be UL with little problems.
On an extended trip like a thru hike, where you cannot plan around weather like you can for short trips, its can be prudent to carry a bit heavier shelter/insulation at times.

No one has ever said all thruhikers should be UL
But rather that they should examine what is in the pack and take what they NEED, and be aware of lighter possibilities
Doing this and getting their packs light will give them the best chance for doing the miles they need to , without sustaining injury, and greatest chance for succeeding on a thru.

[Datto]

And I replied that a 90 lb pack is hellish and definitely belongs to a class of its own.

Ha, 90lbs???

That means someone is carrying their girlfriend. She should get out of the pack and walk down the trail on her own.


Datto

[Datto]

I started my AT northbound thru-hike at 37.5 lbs with 3.5 days food and 2 liters of water at the Amicalola weigh-in station. It didn't seem so heavy when a girl with a 55lb pack passed me going updale in Georgia like I was standing still (she was in excellent physical shape and I could never keep up with her -- she'd finish hiking for the day at 2:30pm so I'd see her again at 7:00pm). Eventually I whittled my total pack weight down to 30lbs with food and water heading though Virginia. Then in Maine my pack went back up to 40lbs with food and water through the 100 mile wilderness, which to be honest, didn't seem all that extra heavy to me because it had loads of food that accompanied that weight and I was in fantastic physical shape by then.

On the PCT, my pack weight went way down (weigh down) in order to accommodate more water through the desert and later in northern California the pack weight went back up to 35 lbs with food and water in order to carry better food (Philadelphia Cream Cheese and lots of peaches for instance -- I was constantly famished). In the further northern areas of the PCT I hadn't increased my pack weight beyond that even though some horse people one morning told me the night before had gotten into the low 20's (I hadn't noticed, just seemed like another night on the trail to me).

So overall I'd say pack weight is particular to the individual -- for me, 15 pounds base weight (without food and water) is pretty light, 20 pounds without food and water is medium and 25 lbs base weight without food and water is starting to get rather heavy.


Datto

[Papa D]

[QUOTE=MuddyWaters;1367034]A lot of peoples pack wt is due to their fears:
Fear they will be cold
Fear they will be wet
Fear they will be hungry
Fear they will be...bitten by a snake, attacked by a bear, attacked by a human, etc.

You wouldnt bring a -10 rated sleeping bag in middle of summer, you know you dont need it
You wouldnt bring 10 days food for a 2 day trip, you know you dont need that either

You do decide what goes in your pack based on what you think you need.
/QUOTE]

REPLY
Much of my winter weight is not only in food but in winter garments like Icebreaker tops and balaclava, down pants, down booties and an overkill down parka made by FF. Most backpackers I see in the winter DO NOT carry sufficient clothing for the temps and therefore end up living in their sleeping bags when in camp. The reason I carry so much down clothing is not because I fear the cold but because I'VE BEEN COLD on so many previous trips. It sucks.

WHAT'S HEAVY?
I found an interesting number when I was out a couple years ago on a long trip. It's a number no one wants to know about. I routinely carry a 75 to 80 lb pack but on one trip I loaded it down to 90 lbs and felt a distinct difference and discovered the limits to my backpacking comfort and ability. So, 90 lbs is definitely a number I can't work with, period. Maybe a Navy SEAL can hump 120 lbs but I'm a seal pup and would whine constantly.

Tipi absolutely knows what he is doing in the coldest, wettest, and worst weather (I knew my friend would WEIGH IN on this one). Tipi is a pack mule - he is the ultimate prepared winter camper BUT the thread wasn't about winter survival for long periods of time, it was about (presumably) three-season and (presumably) long distance backpacking. This was the nature of my post.

[Papa D]

I dont care what anyone else brings.

BUt I do take issue with those that attempt to perpetuate that UL is unsafe, risky, uncomfortable, or requires a lot of experience of knowledge, etc.

SUL may require that , not UL, huge huge difference.

UL is not, when you choose gear correctly for your conditions.
Most UL hikers are doing just fine out there, comfortable, safe, and light and fast, most of the year.

There are people out there that are naive or foolish enough to not take the right gear into conditions that warrant it.
Tipi is correct, no doubt some fools do go into winter with too light of gear to be comfortably safe.
Its not smart to pitch a tarp tent on an exposed ridge in high winds, or even a 3 season free standing with no extra guylines

Sure , you can get away with all that with a serious 4 season tent.
But you actually dont NEED that most of the time. You DO some of the time.
Knowing how and when to use what gear, is the key.

In my way of thinking, its not smart to carry more than you need to, and I mean than you need to for your level of comfort.
If overnight temps are 40F, its not smart to lug a 20F bag, unless you dont have a lighter one
If conditions are mild, its not smart to take a shelter for heavy duty conditions, unless you dont have a lighter one
If conditions are bad, it may not be smart to take a UL shelter, unless you have complete confidence and experience to use it as needed to stay safe/dry.
If conditions are extended and cold and wet, it may not even be smart to take down insulation

It all depends on conditions. Fortunately conditions are good enough, much of the year, to be UL with little problems.
On an extended trip like a thru hike, where you cannot plan around weather like you can for short trips, its can be prudent to carry a bit heavier shelter/insulation at times.

No one has ever said all thruhikers should be UL
But rather that they should examine what is in the pack and take what they NEED, and be aware of lighter possibilities
Doing this and getting their packs light will give them the best chance for doing the miles they need to , without sustaining injury, and greatest chance for succeeding on a thru.

UL is not unsafe on the AT because there is no place on the AT (even in NH and ME) where your average ultra-lighter can't get to a building with a roof and heat within one day's walk. Even with a 25 pound average carry weight, I can get to a town and a shuttle every day on the AT if I want it - - so, my comfort level leaving stuff out is going pretty light. In a bigger patch of woods (like Tipi Walter land - Joyce Kilmer Wilderness, I'll add a few things to increase the margin of safety - - being an ultra lighter in Wrangell-Saint Elias Wilderness or walking the Canol Heritage Trail as an Ultra-Lighter would indeed be dangerous.