Heavy Thinking with Tipi Walter

[Tipi Walter]

My first solo hike was 19 lbs w/o food water.

This number is just part of the equation. Let's say you're out for 15 days w/o resupply. Add 30 lbs of food, 1 lb of water and ZAP you've got 50 lbs. Now add your winter kit and maybe a four season tent and oh throw in a couple books and extra batteries.

*Thread was split from Thinking Ultralight (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?89814-Thinking-ultralight)

[Stink Bug]

This number is just part of the equation. Let's say you're out for 15 days w/o resupply. Add 30 lbs of food, 1 lb of water and ZAP you've got 50 lbs. Now add your winter kit and maybe a four season tent and oh throw in a couple books and extra batteries.

Referring back to your earlier post, take what you want, I've done 15, day trips, without resupply and I've still had nowhere near 50lb, even with my winter kit. I've still been safe, enjoyed mysef and, despite what you may think about "the current Fast and Light hysteria' been comfortable.

Everybody has different philosophies and reasons why they backpack. You yourself admitted in a previous thread that only an idiot (or savant) could define backpacking. For me backpacking is, in part, defined by the journey, rather than the destination; quit simply I enjoy the hiking aspect moreso than the camping and that doesn't mean that my way is the right way or your way is wrong.

[Tipi Walter]

Referring back to your earlier post, take what you want, I've done 15, day trips, without resupply and I've still had nowhere near 50lb, even with my winter kit. I've still been safe, enjoyed mysef and, despite what you may think about "the current Fast and Light hysteria' been comfortable.

Everybody has different philosophies and reasons why they backpack. You yourself admitted in a previous thread that only an idiot (or savant) could define backpacking. For me backpacking is, in part, defined by the journey, rather than the destination; quit simply I enjoy the hiking aspect moreso than the camping and that doesn't mean that my way is the right way or your way is wrong.

My food load is always 2 lbs or more a day---ergo 15 days 30 lbs of food.

[Malto]

Tipi,
It obvious that you and I are very likely polar opposites in our approach to BPing. I admire the trips that you do and it sounds like you have your gear nailed down. But why do you constantly come on UL threads and declare that approaches other than your own are wrong? Or unsafe? Hysteria? Few people would enjoy doing the trips you do, even fewer would probably enjoy my trips. But different means different not wrong. I is starting to sound like Mags classic HMHDI.

[Kerosene]

My food load is always 2 lbs or more a day---ergo 15 days 30 lbs of food.Note that Tipi is at the 2 lbs/day average because he tends to hike in winter, through heavy snow, carrying a 90-lb pack, and his metabolism is that of an 18-year old! Even around camp I'm sure he's snacking all day.

The typical AT section hiker (15-200 miles) of medium stature not hiking in frigid temperatures can probably get by with something closer to 1.5 lbs/day. The bigger you are, the colder it is, the more rugged the trail, or the farther you walk, the more calories you're going to need.

[Stink Bug]

My food load is always 2 lbs or more a day---ergo 15 days 30 lbs of food.

Exactly my point, that's you WANT. I wasn't disagreeing about your load, I was pointing out that this number nor the equation is the same for everybody, and that's perfectly fine. My food load, for example, is around 1.25 p/p/day and I'm comfortable and happy with that. I get that, for whatever reason, your dislike of ultralighters but I'm not the one coming in to the forum, specifically for ultralight hikers and disagreeing just for the sake of disagreeing...

[Tipi Walter]

Tipi,
It obvious that you and I are very likely polar opposites in our approach to BPing. I admire the trips that you do and it sounds like you have your gear nailed down. But why do you constantly come on UL threads and declare that approaches other than your own are wrong? Or unsafe? Hysteria? Few people would enjoy doing the trips you do, even fewer would probably enjoy my trips. But different means different not wrong. I is starting to sound like Mags classic HMHDI.

My point is not to recommend carrying a butt heavy pack or to say my Hike Is Right but to point out how the word Minimalism when used by backpackers is a misnomer as the gear itself is maximus high tech while we sit at computers and drive cars and all the rest. And then we say how minimalist hiking bleeds into our regular American lives? I just don't see it.

[MuddyWaters]

Take only what you WANT.

I actually WANT less than I NEED

When you want more than you have, you think you need.
But when you think more than you want, your thoughts begin to bleed.
I think I need to find a bigger place.
'Cause when you have more than you think, you need more space.

[MuddyWaters]

My point is not to recommend carrying a butt heavy pack or to say my Hike Is Right but to point out how the word Minimalism when used by backpackers is a misnomer as the gear itself is maximus high tech while we sit at computers and drive cars and all the rest. And then we say how minimalist hiking bleeds into our regular American lives? I just don't see it.

Something as simple as a leaf or a drop of water is still more complex than we will ever be able to understand.

I personally am saturated with things and life responsibility. When I go out in the woods, I want to take as little as possible. I dont want to pack and unpack lots of object, fool with them, or keep up with them.

I want simplicity, which is elegant.

Some want to take as many "toys' as they can, and play with them, use them. Thats how they enjoy their hike. I am the polar opposite of those people.

We have guys in our hunting lease that really only want to have a reason to drive their $10,000 4 wheeler thru the woods.
I know bass fishermen that spend most of their day driving their boat around. Its a toy, they are only really looking for a reason to play with it.

Without the toys and gadgets, the activity becomes uninteresting to them.

[10-K]

.......................

[MuddyWaters]

Try to avoid getting into a pissing contest with Walter...

If you haven't figured it out, he takes a 70+ lb pack into the woods and generally stays in the same area, give or take.

That's awesome and I totally respect that.

But I'm talking about hiking a trail, from point A to point B. Hiking every day, where the main objective is to hike and actually cover ground with finishing at point B a prime objective. Not hike into the woods, pitch a tent, read a book and eat cheese for a few weeks while it snows.

I agree , its all good, ive got lots of respect for the guy just from reading his trip reports, Id love to do trips like that in winter. If I was going to intentionally go get myself snowed in for a week or two in subzero temps in an epic blizzard I would probably bring 70lbs too. Maybe not 70, but there would be a lot of contingency because your putting your life a bit closer to the edge, and thats where you really start to live.

I too am bored staying in one place, or even hiking areas Im already familiar with.
I want to walk, I want to sweat, I want to breath hard for several hrs per day, and then lay down to sleep at night and sleep soundly amonst nature. like we were meant to.

[Rasty]

.......................

Now that's ultralight!:D

[Tipi Walter]

I want to walk, I want to sweat, I want to breath hard for several hrs per day, and then lay down to sleep at night and sleep soundly amonst nature. like we were meant to.

Some people imagine I don't walk or sweat or have my butt handed to me on a regular basis by nutbuster climbs. To dispel this notion check out a recent trip report---

http://www.trailspace.com/forums/trip-reports/topics/128530.html#128530


Something as simple as a leaf or a drop of water is still more complex than we will ever be able to understand.

I personally am saturated with things and life responsibility. When I go out in the woods, I want to take as little as possible. I dont want to pack and unpack lots of object, fool with them, or keep up with them.

I want simplicity, which is elegant.

Some want to take as many "toys' as they can, and play with them, use them. Thats how they enjoy their hike. I am the polar opposite of those people.

We have guys in our hunting lease that really only want to have a reason to drive their $10,000 4 wheeler thru the woods.
I know bass fishermen that spend most of their day driving their boat around. Its a toy, they are only really looking for a reason to play with it.

Without the toys and gadgets, the activity becomes uninteresting to them.

Everybody has their toys. Heck, I see backpackers with GPS devices which I consider totally useless dead weight and yet they love 'em. Just another toy. The $10,000 ATV and the bass boat are True Toys since they do not have to be hand-carried on your back. This simple chore greatly limits a backpacker's relationship to his toys.

My weight comes from several factors---the main one being heading out into areas which could be called wilderness where there are no resupply points and while carrying 20 days worth of food and a full winter kit. The food and fuel load alone comes to 45-50 lbs. And the only time I'm able to read a book in solitude and relaxation is when I'm out on a trip and so you add in the weight of 4 books and ZAP it builds, along with 32 to 44 ounces of white gas stove fuel.

The neat thing is, the books are burned and the food eaten and the fuel cooked and by Day 15 of the trip my pack is around 45 lbs---down from 80 lbs---and 45 lbs seems like a daypack to me and incredibly light. I still have 5 more days of food and fuel---actually 8 days of food as I like to have extra just in case I run into a problem and can't get out---so my pack is not as light as it could be. Plus, just my pack and tent together come to 16 lbs 8 oz---8 lb 10 oz tent and 7 lb 14 ounce pack. I like both and see no need for change.

So what if I start a trip with 80 lbs and only go 4 or 5 miles the first day? The corporate honchos came up with the Fast & Light campaign and the world of backpacking ate it up like the Next Great Snake Oil Elixir. The strangest thing is that now there are backpackers who don't feel genuine unless they cover 30 miles a day FAST and hump a 12 lb kit LIGHT. Question is, how many do it naturally as part of hiking their own hike, and how many do it after being bombarded and brainwashed by the Fast and Light hysteria? You know it's corporate groupthink when all a newb thinks about is starting out ultralight with a 12 lb kit. They are asking for trouble and don't even know the right questions. But it must be Ultralight at all costs. Weird.

[Rasty]

I want to walk, I want to sweat, I want to breath hard for several hrs per day, and then lay down to sleep at night and sleep soundly amonst nature. like we were meant to.

Some people imagine I don't walk or sweat or have my butt handed to me on a regular basis by nutbuster climbs. To dispel this notion check out a recent trip report---

http://www.trailspace.com/forums/trip-reports/topics/128530.html#128530


Something as simple as a leaf or a drop of water is still more complex than we will ever be able to understand.

I personally am saturated with things and life responsibility. When I go out in the woods, I want to take as little as possible. I dont want to pack and unpack lots of object, fool with them, or keep up with them.

I want simplicity, which is elegant.

Some want to take as many "toys' as they can, and play with them, use them. Thats how they enjoy their hike. I am the polar opposite of those people.

We have guys in our hunting lease that really only want to have a reason to drive their $10,000 4 wheeler thru the woods.
I know bass fishermen that spend most of their day driving their boat around. Its a toy, they are only really looking for a reason to play with it.

Without the toys and gadgets, the activity becomes uninteresting to them.

Everybody has their toys. Heck, I see backpackers with GPS devices which I consider totally useless dead weight and yet they love 'em. Just another toy. The $10,000 ATV and the bass boat are True Toys since they do not have to be hand-carried on your back. This simple chore greatly limits a backpacker's relationship to his toys.

My weight comes from several factors---the main one being heading out into areas which could be called wilderness where there are no resupply points and while carrying 20 days worth of food and a full winter kit. The food and fuel load alone comes to 45-50 lbs. And the only time I'm able to read a book in solitude and relaxation is when I'm out on a trip and so you add in the weight of 4 books and ZAP it builds, along with 32 to 44 ounces of white gas stove fuel.

The neat thing is, the books are burned and the food eaten and the fuel cooked and by Day 15 of the trip my pack is around 45 lbs---down from 80 lbs---and 45 lbs seems like a daypack to me and incredibly light. I still have 5 more days of food and fuel---actually 8 days of food as I like to have extra just in case I run into a problem and can't get out---so my pack is not as light as it could be. Plus, just my pack and tent together come to 16 lbs 8 oz---8 lb 10 oz tent and 7 lb 14 ounce pack. I like both and see no need for change.

So what if I start a trip with 80 lbs and only go 4 or 5 miles the first day? The corporate honchos came up with the Fast & Light campaign and the world of backpacking ate it up like the Next Great Snake Oil Elixir. The strangest thing is that now there are backpackers who don't feel genuine unless they cover 30 miles a day FAST and hump a 12 lb kit LIGHT. Question is, how many do it naturally as part of hiking their own hike, and how many do it after being bombarded and brainwashed by the Fast and Light hysteria? You know it's corporate groupthink when all a newb thinks about is starting out ultralight with a 12 lb kit. They are asking for trouble and don't even know the right questions. But it must be Ultralight at all costs. Weird.

Tipi, it can also be as simple as some people like Chinese food and others like Italian. They are both delicious and awful depending on who's cooking.

[Malto]

Tipi,
nobody is trying to change you!

[Tipi Walter]

Tipi, it can also be as simple as some people like Chinese food and others like Italian. They are both delicious and awful depending on who's cooking.

Ultralight backpacking can evolve over time as experienced backpackers hone their kit and reduce weight. Heck, we all try to lower pack weight. My WM sleeping bag is very light for its rating. My Simmerlight white gas stove is lighter than my Whisperlight and much lighter than my old Svea 123. So yes, the kit is evolving and getting lighter. My 8 lb 10 oz four season tent would weight between 10 lbs and 12 lbs in its equivalent form from North Face or Mt Hardwear.

The problem I have is seeing REI and Campmor and Thermarest and TarpTent and cottage companies and countless interweb blogs and forums spew the Fast & Light mantra as if it's the only food in town. It ain't but the newbs latch onto it as if they are starving and can't eat anything else.

[Tipi Walter]

Tipi,
nobody is trying to change you!

I'm beyond changing. My point is that the Fast & Light groupthink is in part an advertising campaign trying to change everyone else.

[MDSection12]

Ultralight backpacking can evolve over time as experienced backpackers hone their kit and reduce weight. Heck, we all try to lower pack weight. My WM sleeping bag is very light for its rating. My Simmerlight white gas stove is lighter than my Whisperlight and much lighter than my old Svea 123. So yes, the kit is evolving and getting lighter. My 8 lb 10 oz four season tent would weight between 10 lbs and 12 lbs in its equivalent form from North Face or Mt Hardwear.

The problem I have is seeing REI and Campmor and Thermarest and TarpTent and cottage companies and countless interweb blogs and forums spew their Fast & Light mantra as if it's the only food in town. It ain't but the newbs latch onto it as if they are starving and can't eat anything else.

As someone new to backpacking I actually appreciate the Fast and Light guys. I know better than to think I'm ready to get my pack down to the weights they talk about (mostly due to funds) but it is a good reminder that you should be creative and find ways to solve problems that don't involve heavy, one-trick-pony solutions. Anyone foolish enough to be so absorbed with getting their pack weight down that they risk being unprepared is probably foolish enough to make some similar mistakes regardless. I'd say there is an equally risky trend of new backpackers packing in everything they could possibly want and end up ruining their trip (and back) trying to keep up with the weight.

At the end of the day backpacking is about knowing yourself and being responsible for your needs. That cuts both ways; taking too much on a trip can ruin the trip (and even be dangerous in some cases) just as quickly as taking too little. In my mind it is important that your opinion is represented as well as the fast and light guys'. It lets me know as a newbie that I need to figure out what works for me and ignore the 'hype.' For me I fall somewhere in the middle (as do most) but I like to read others' strategies and can adapt a bit of each into my own... Isn't that the point?

[Rasty]

Tipi, it can also be as simple as some people like Chinese food and others like Italian. They are both delicious and awful depending on who's cooking.

Ultralight backpacking can evolve over time as experienced backpackers hone their kit and reduce weight. Heck, we all try to lower pack weight. My WM sleeping bag is very light for its rating. My Simmerlight white gas stove is lighter than my Whisperlight and much lighter than my old Svea 123. So yes, the kit is evolving and getting lighter. My 8 lb 10 oz four season tent would weight between 10 lbs and 12 lbs in its equivalent form from North Face or Mt Hardwear.

The problem I have is seeing REI and Campmor and Thermarest and TarpTent and cottage companies and countless interweb blogs and forums spew their Fast & Light mantra as if it's the only food in town. It ain't but the newbs latch onto it as if they are starving and can't eat anything else.

I agree there. I went from packing very light in the boy scouts (we had a great leader who taught minimal summer gear weight) to packing much heavier gear then have decreased the weight of each piece of gear as the wallet and experience allowed. I still use my Whisperlite when camping with the family + a larger pack for splitting up gear by each members ability to carry a load. In the last two years I have cut my pack weight in half while being more comfortable and warmer. Summer gear with water and six days food is under 25#. Add 12# for winter time for the same trip which has a couple of extra days food just in case plus winter clothing, etc.

I often go hiking with my youngest daughter. Her entire pack is her sleeping bag, pad, clothes, headlamp, water, a plastic cup and a spork. My normal kit has everything else. Plus I usually try to slip in a rock into her pack just for fun.

[Tipi Walter]

I posted my GearGrams gear list a few pages back. I tend to find, my first couple of days out my appetite actually diminishes so I actually carry less food than the norm (it averages out around 1.25lb per day, even in winter). I actually dehydrate and make all my own food so I can control the calories, salt etc and it's usually higher calorie density than, say, MH meals etc.

You're right about getting the food load lighter. It's possible if a person is willing to get more organized and not just throw food into a pack, although variety to me is the name of the game when it comes to backpacking food. So, my pack often has apples and grapes and maybe an avocado or a fresh burrito and a fruit smoothie for the first couple days of a butt long trip.

I recently got a TSM 5 tray dehydrator and this morning cooked up a bunch of spaghetti with sauce and it's all in the dryer getting ready for my next trip. Point is, if a person spends considerable time dehydrating at home he'll have a lighter food load. By this I mean everything he likes to eat in a can like chili or beans or soups (tomato soup) or butternut squash soup or what the heck ever can all be dehydrated at home.

[Stink Bug]

You're right about getting the food load lighter. It's possible if a person is willing to get more organized and not just throw food into a pack, although variety to me is the name of the game when it comes to backpacking food. So, my pack often has apples and grapes and maybe an avocado or a fresh burrito and a fruit smoothie for the first couple days of a butt long trip.

I recently got a TSM 5 tray dehydrator and this morning cooked up a bunch of spaghetti with sauce and it's all in the dryer getting ready for my next trip. Point is, if a person spends considerable time dehydrating at home he'll have a lighter food load. By this I mean everything he likes to eat in a can like chili or beans or soups (tomato soup) or butternut squash soup or what the heck ever can all be dehydrated at home.

One of the benefits of growing my own food (I did mention my backpacking minimalism bleeds over to my regular life :)) is that I often have an abundance of wonderful, fresh produce that takes a few minutes of prep to ensure I have nutritious, delicious backpacking meals.

I will agree with your earlier point regarding "Ultralight backpacking can evolve over time as experienced backpackers hone their kit and reduce weight". Heck, that's exactly what I did. I started off hiking the Yorkshire Moors / Dales with my dad, aged 11 with Army surplus gear and, quite honestly it sucked. I had wool pants that itched so badly and when they got wet, as they often did, the crotch hung around my knees. After a stint in the Royal Air Force and backacking in the Artic Circle (Norway and Goose Bay, Canada), Falkland Island and, the hot and sweaty jungles of Belize, I decided that I needed to radically change my philosphy and kit. This wasn't an overnight process and it's been a lot of trial and error. Now though, I'm at a place where I can go out in sub freezing weather (last winter for example I thru-hiked the Laurel Highlands Trail in 3 days with a sub 20lb load with nightime temps below 10*F) and was perfectly comfortable.

As I mentioned earlier, I have a friend who I recently introduced to backpacking and after initially buying 'traditional' gear (packweight was around 30 - 35lb for a 3 night trip) he's bought in to ultralite in a big way. It really does irritate me no end that he spends more time buying lighter gear than he does being out in the woods using the kit he has and honing his outdoor skills. But to say Fast and Light is hysteria is doing the vast majority a great disservice.

Just my 2c worth (adjusted for inflation)...

[Tipi Walter]

But to say Fast and Light is hysteria is doing the vast majority a great disservice.

Just my 2c worth (adjusted for inflation)...

Here's the Fast & Light hysteria in action---not judged as good or bad but proof of the abundance of the Fast & Light mindset LIKE ALIENS OVERTAKING THE WORLD!!;)

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=69886

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=50644

http://www.hyperlitemountaingear.com/?gclid=CNDUn_WL97MCFQY5nAodyzgAYA

http://www.ultralightbackpacker.com/

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/index.html Pack Less, Be More???

http://www.adventurealan.com/

http://gossamergear.com/ Take Less, Do More????

http://www.ultimate-ultralight-backpacking.com/

http://www.centerwalk.com/

http://onestep4me.tripod.com/

http://www.backpacking.net/

http://www.prolitegear.com/ultralight_backpacking.html

http://litetornado.tripod.com/

http://www.zpacks.com/

http://samh.net/backpacking/

http://www.lightheartgear.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1&zenid=8f1c77288b24dbf34a16a8793ce82c46

http://ultralightoutfitters.com/
(http://ultralightoutfitters.com/)

[Tipi Walter]

Here's the Fast & Light hysteria in action---

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=69886

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=50644

http://www.hyperlitemountaingear.com/?gclid=CNDUn_WL97MCFQY5nAodyzgAYA

http://www.ultralightbackpacker.com/

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/index.html Pack Less, Be More???

http://www.adventurealan.com/

http://gossamergear.com/ Take Less, Do More????

http://www.ultimate-ultralight-backpacking.com/

http://www.centerwalk.com/

http://onestep4me.tripod.com/

http://www.backpacking.net/

http://www.prolitegear.com/ultralight_backpacking.html

http://litetornado.tripod.com/

http://www.zpacks.com/

http://samh.net/backpacking/

http://www.lightheartgear.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1&zenid=8f1c77288b24dbf34a16a8793ce82c46

http://ultralightoutfitters.com/
(http://ultralightoutfitters.com/)

What makes it hysterical? When you google "heavyweight backpacking" and come up with nothing except maybe these---and they're mostly in jest with some good amount of sarcasm.

http://sectionhiker.com/ultralight-backpacking-will-make-you-soft/

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/metamorphosis_1.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZoKFTDSyUA

http://freeoutdoors.com/blog/hiking/backpacking-tips

http://blackwoodspress.com/blog/5857/5-heavy-backpacking-gear-items/

[Stink Bug]

Here's the Fast & Light hysteria in action---

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=69886

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=50644

http://www.hyperlitemountaingear.com/?gclid=CNDUn_WL97MCFQY5nAodyzgAYA

http://www.ultralightbackpacker.com/

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/index.html Pack Less, Be More???

http://www.adventurealan.com/

http://gossamergear.com/ Take Less, Do More????

http://www.ultimate-ultralight-backpacking.com/

http://www.centerwalk.com/

http://onestep4me.tripod.com/

http://www.backpacking.net/

http://www.prolitegear.com/ultralight_backpacking.html

http://litetornado.tripod.com/

http://www.zpacks.com/

http://samh.net/backpacking/

http://www.lightheartgear.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1&zenid=8f1c77288b24dbf34a16a8793ce82c46

http://ultralightoutfitters.com/
(http://ultralightoutfitters.com/)


Again, I'll respectfully disagree:
hys·te·ri·a /hɪˈstɛr i ə, -ˈstɪər-/ Show Spelled [hi-ster-ee-uh, -steer-] Show IPA noun 1. an uncontrollable outburst of emotion or fear (http://www.whiteblaze.net/browse/fear), often characterized by irrationality, laughter, weeping, etc

Joe, who owns ZPacks, is a Triple Crowner and somebody who I admire and respect an awful lot. The same with Glen from Gossamer Gear. I've bought from both companies and I definitely wasn't brainwashed (but thanks for assuming) or strong-armed in to buying their products. I agree some people take it to the extreme and just buy lightweight gear without perfecting their outdoor skills but I still stand by my point that to call it hysteria is doing the vast majority a disservice. Then again I'm not the one reaching for Aunt Sally's (I think you call them Strawmen over this side of the pond)...

[Rasty]

This would be in jest of heavy weight versus lightweight!
:)
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?81312-How-is-my-Load&highlight=

[pyroman53]

Here's one that seems to be dedicated to heavyweight backpacking - very popular and completly in tune with corporate america:
http://forums.backpacker.com/cgi-bin/forums/ikonboard.cgi?

[Tipi Walter]

Again, I'll respectfully disagree:
hys·te·ri·a

/hɪˈstɛr i ə, -ˈstɪər-/ Show Spelled [hi-ster-ee-uh, -steer-] Show IPA noun 1. an uncontrollable outburst of emotion or fear (http://www.whiteblaze.net/browse/fear), often characterized by irrationality, laughter, weeping, etc

Joe, who owns ZPacks, is a Triple Crowner and somebody who I admire and respect an awful lot. The same with Glen from Gossamer Gear. I've bought from both companies and I definitely wasn't brainwashed (but thanks for assuming) or strong-armed in to buying their products. I agree some people take it to the extreme and just buy lightweight gear without perfecting their outdoor skills but I still stand by my point that to call it hysteria is doing the vast majority a disservice. Then again I'm not the one reaching for Aunt Sally's (I think you call them Strawmen over this side of the pond)...

Not attacking individual business owners of course but questioning the overwhelming corporate mandate to hook into the fast and light mindset. It works because it sells. Okay, I get that. But I'm here to say it's possible to backpack and live outdoors with just the opposite mindset, Slow and Heavy. It doesn't sell. Why not? Because most people want to go fast and they can't go fast unless they're light. Ergo they pull either short weekend trips with minimal food weight or they do long trips with frequent resupplies thereby lowering their food weight.

Question---can a backpacker on an "expedition" trip carry 45 lbs of food and still be considered an ULer? Yes, their base weight is still light but what UL pack will hump 45 lbs of food?

[Tipi Walter]

Here's one that seems to be dedicated to heavyweight backpacking - very popular and completly in tune with corporate america:
http://forums.backpacker.com/cgi-bin/forums/ikonboard.cgi?

I consider this to be Camping as defined by corporate America---in fact RV types call this "camping". Weird, ain't it?

http://images.affinitygroup.com/webcontent/woodalls.com/rvfeatured.jpg (http://images.affinitygroup.com/webcontent/woodalls.com/rvfeatured.jpg)

[jeffmeh]

I think we should bear in mind that those posting to this forum are hardly a representative sample of the hiking population. Many are here to discuss and learn about a 2000+ mile trip that offers resupply opportunities every 3-4 days, and that with timing and good luck will not offer too many serious weather challenges. Those conditions allow one to pack relatively lightly without sacrificing safety or too much comfort. So there is a definite bias toward light or ultralight here.

That said, among the general hiking population, many more dollars are spent on traditional gear than on comparable ultralight gear. There is very little ultralight gear in mainstream stores like REI, EMS, etc.

We are not really doing an apples to apples comparison, when some are going out in deep winter for weeks without resupply, and some are doing temperate weather 3-4 day trips.

I would actually love to hear the ultralight enthusiast's packing list for going on one of Walter's trips, and Walter's packing list for doing an AT NOBO starting in mid-march, with a finish within 6 months. Then we could compare and contrast the approaches when faced with the same problems.

[Tipi Walter]

I think we should bear in mind that those posting to this forum are hardly a representative sample of the hiking population. Many are here to discuss and learn about a 2000+ mile trip that offers resupply opportunities every 3-4 days, and that with timing and good luck will not offer too many serious weather challenges. Those conditions allow one to pack relatively lightly without sacrificing safety or too much comfort. So there is a definite bias toward light or ultralight here.

That said, among the general hiking population, many more dollars are spent on traditional gear than on comparable ultralight gear. There is very little ultralight gear in mainstream stores like REI, EMS, etc.

We are not really doing an apples to apples comparison, when some are going out in deep winter for weeks without resupply, and some are doing temperate weather 3-4 day trips.

I would actually love to hear the ultralight enthusiast's packing list for going on one of Walter's trips, and Walter's packing list for doing an AT NOBO starting in mid-march, with a finish within 6 months. Then we could compare and contrast the approaches when faced with the same problems.

"So there is a definite bias toward light or ultralight here." Amen, pass the beans and rice.

"I would actually love to hear the ultralight enthusiast's packing list for going on one of Walter's trips, and Walter's packing list for doing an AT NOBO starting in mid-march, with a finish within 6 months. Then we could compare and contrast the approaches when faced with the same problems."

The first would only be a challenge with the food weight and possibly some extra stuff needed for shelter upgrades for comfort during open bald blizzards as we sit out a storm together in our separate shelters trying to avoid spindrift. More fuel of course and a food weight approaching 45 lbs. Maybe a couple extra pieces of winter clothing.

An AT NOBO attempt for me would not finish in six months as there's no need for a forced march and I am comfy with 7 mile days thereby finishing half the trail in 5 or 6 months. Why not? Heck I'm retired so what's the hurry? If Making the Miles to Maine was my only consideration, well, I'd go much lighter too and resupply every 4 days. My goal though is to enter the woods, any woods, even the Appalachian Trail woods, and not come out until my trip is over. This means carrying however much gear and food I can for the duration. Resupplying every 4 days is not my idea of a "wilderness backpacking trip." I go out to get away from roads and cars and stores and folding money---give me a few good books and some candles and alot of food and sayonatra for 3 weeks.

In fact, the first step out of the car on the first day of a 21 day backpacking trip with a huge pack is the best feeling in the world and the best feeling of the whole trip. Weight is the price of freedom.

[max patch]

I consider this to be Camping as defined by corporate America---in fact RV types call this "camping". Weird, ain't it?

http://images.affinitygroup.com/webcontent/woodalls.com/rvfeatured.jpg (http://images.affinitygroup.com/webcontent/woodalls.com/rvfeatured.jpg)

When my kids were young I took them car camping at a state park like my dad used to do to me. I was shocked - shocked!!! - that tent campers like us were like 5% of the people there. The other 95% were in some type of RV or another. Our friendly neighbor invited us over to watch a football game on their big screen tv.

[FarmerChef]

I was shocked when I went on my first cub scout campout to learn what car camping was for the first time. We brought all our hiking gear and were ok but the next trip we brought the twinkly lights, dutch ovens and all manner of heaviness in our F350 dually :bananaNow, we have a throwdown challenge to see who can cook the best feast over an open fire.

[MDSection12]

I think we should bear in mind that those posting to this forum are hardly a representative sample of the hiking population. Many are here to discuss and learn about a 2000+ mile trip that offers resupply opportunities every 3-4 days, and that with timing and good luck will not offer too many serious weather challenges. Those conditions allow one to pack relatively lightly without sacrificing safety or too much comfort. So there is a definite bias toward light or ultralight here.

That said, among the general hiking population, many more dollars are spent on traditional gear than on comparable ultralight gear. There is very little ultralight gear in mainstream stores like REI, EMS, etc.

We are not really doing an apples to apples comparison, when some are going out in deep winter for weeks without resupply, and some are doing temperate weather 3-4 day trips.

I would actually love to hear the ultralight enthusiast's packing list for going on one of Walter's trips, and Walter's packing list for doing an AT NOBO starting in mid-march, with a finish within 6 months. Then we could compare and contrast the approaches when faced with the same problems.

Great post! Kudos!

I'm new to the site but already I've noticed that the way you thru-hike the AT is not the way you do backcountry backpacking... Very different mindsets. I know this forum isn't limited exclusively to AT topics, but that's what brought us all here I'd imagine. Hardly a representative sample of the population.

[Tipi Walter]

Great post! Kudos!

I'm new to the site but already I've noticed that the way you thru-hike the AT is not the way you do backcountry backpacking... Very different mindsets. I know this forum isn't limited exclusively to AT topics, but that's what brought us all here I'd imagine. Hardly a representative sample of the population.

Show me a decent backpacking forum and I'd go to it. Backpacker.com (the magazine forum) is full of non-trail posts and threads, BackpackingLight.com can get interesting at times but it's the polar opposite of what I do, plus they fixate on the minutiae of cuben fiber and nano grams and is more geared for out West. Trailspace is slow moving as is Sgt Rock's. Bushcraft USA is all about weapons and cordage and knives and steel and stuff with slow moving backpacking threads. It's great if you're into basecamping on a ridgetop in a tipi with a woodstove for 20 years though.:)

Whiteblaze stays active with many posts and most of them have to do with backpacking the AT along with other trails. Emphasis Other Trails for me.

[jeffmeh]

"So there is a definite bias toward light or ultralight here." Amen, pass the beans and rice.

"I would actually love to hear the ultralight enthusiast's packing list for going on one of Walter's trips, and Walter's packing list for doing an AT NOBO starting in mid-march, with a finish within 6 months. Then we could compare and contrast the approaches when faced with the same problems."

The first would only be a challenge with the food weight and possibly some extra stuff needed for shelter upgrades for comfort during open bald blizzards as we sit out a storm together in our separate shelters trying to avoid spindrift. More fuel of course and a food weight approaching 45 lbs. Maybe a couple extra pieces of winter clothing.

An AT NOBO attempt for me would not finish in six months as there's no need for a forced march and I am comfy with 7 mile days thereby finishing half the trail in 5 or 6 months. Why not? Heck I'm retired so what's the hurry? If Making the Miles to Maine was my only consideration, well, I'd go much lighter too and resupply every 4 days. My goal though is to enter the woods, any woods, even the Appalachian Trail woods, and not come out until my trip is over. This means carrying however much gear and food I can for the duration. Resupplying every 4 days is not my idea of a "wilderness backpacking trip." I go out to get away from roads and cars and stores and folding money---give me a few good books and some candles and alot of food and sayonatra for 3 weeks.

In fact, the first step out of the car on the first day of a 21 day backpacking trip with a huge pack is the best feeling in the world and the best feeling of the whole trip. Weight is the price of freedom.

Thanks Walter. Very reasonable response, and what I expected. Different goals, preferences, conditions, and skill levels drive different gear choices.

I only object to choices that compromise safety given skill levels, or rely on encroaching upon others under not unlikely conditions (e.g., "the weather is nasty, I did not bring a shelter, so give me space at the full shelter"). Outside of that, it's all about HYOH and the subjective theory of value (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjective_theory_of_value).

[MDSection12]

Show me a decent backpacking forum and I'd go to it. Backpacker.com (the magazine forum) is full of non-trail posts and threads, BackpackingLight.com can get interesting at times but it's the polar opposite of what I do, plus they fixate on the minutiae of cuben fiber and nano grams and is more geared for out West. Trailspace is slow moving as is Sgt Rock's. Bushcraft USA is all about weapons and cordage and knives and steel and stuff with slow moving backpacking threads. It's great if you're into basecamping on a ridgetop in a tipi with a woodstove for 20 years though.:)

Whiteblaze stays active with many posts and most of them have to do with backpacking the AT along with other trails. Emphasis Other Trails for me.
Well that's usually the case with forums; the guys that are just kind of out there doing it their way aren't trolling the internet for suggestions... The people that join a forum and become active are the ones that are pushing towards some kind of goal. In the case of backpacking that is almost always lightweight. I don't know how many forums you frequent but you kind of have to learn to dismiss the diehards and just take everything with a grain of salt. There's always the guy telling you you must do x or y despite the fact that you've been doing otherwise for years... I mean come on, this is the internet afterall.

Not singling you out or telling you to find a new site, just pointing out that the internet is full of zealots and the casual, more average guys aren't really represented. I take everything here as a learning excercise, but that doesn't mean I'm selling all my gear and buying cuben fiber to replace it any time soon.

[colorado_rob]

In fact, the first step out of the car on the first day of a 21 day backpacking trip with a huge pack is the best feeling in the world and the best feeling of the whole trip. Weight is the price of freedom. Yes, amen on the first point, well said, but you have the second one exactly backwards. Weight is the bane of freedom (on the trail). You can indeed go nicely lightweight and be totally equipped, even in winter and basically barely notice your pack's weight (well, for 3-4 day trips, at least). I could cite a zillion examples of what I mean, but to what point? "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig" (Robert A. Heinlein, bless his soul).

[Tipi Walter]

There is something called being on the "stupid side of light". I've been there a few times. Shaved my gear down to pure minimum. It was a delight to carry such a small load. On the second day of the Landmannalaugar hike in Iceland the storm hit. 40mph winds blowing heavy rain at 2degrees C. Had just a light raincoat, got drenched. Didn't have enough warm clothes. Dark approached. Passed a monument to an Israeli hiker who had died (in a similar storm, I was later told). Began shivering uncontrollably. Well, I (and 9 others) reached a hut and the caretaker nursed us back to full body temperature. Otherwise, I wouldn't be here.

Your story reminds me of a trip I did last January to Huckleberry Knob and into the Snowbirds for several weeks. On top of the mighty Huck there's this white cross memorial to two dead hikers of decades past. But they were not ultralighters.

http://www.trailgallery.com/photos/13084/tj13084%5F012712%5F110124%5F649269.jpg (http://www.trailgallery.com/photos/13084/tj13084%5F012712%5F110124%5F649269.jpg)

[OzJacko]

Hey Walter!
You should come over here and hike a few trails.
In the case of the Australian Alps Walking Track you could pick the season and have all the snow you want.
For the Bib Track near me the middle of winter would seem like some summer to you and with water at all the huts you could be "lightweight" even with a fortnights food.

[Tipi Walter]

Hey Walter!
You should come over here and hike a few trails.
In the case of the Australian Alps Walking Track you could pick the season and have all the snow you want.
For the Bib Track near me the middle of winter would seem like some summer to you and with water at all the huts you could be "lightweight" even with a fortnights food.

Thanks for the suggestion.

[MuddyWaters]

There is something called being on the "stupid side of light". I've been there a few times. Shaved my gear down to pure minimum. It was a delight to carry such a small load. On the second day of the Landmannalaugar hike in Iceland the storm hit. 40mph winds blowing heavy rain at 2degrees C. Had just a light raincoat, got drenched. Didn't have enough warm clothes. Dark approached. Passed a monument to an Israeli hiker who had died (in a similar storm, I was later told). Began shivering uncontrollably. Well, I (and 9 others) reached a hut and the caretaker nursed us back to full body temperature. Otherwise, I wouldn't be here.


Stupid has nothing to do with being light, it has everything to do with being unprepared for reasonable conditions.
You can carry a 50 lb pack and still not have raingear or warm clothing or a plan B.

[MuddyWaters]

I would actually love to hear the ultralight enthusiast's packing list for going on one of Walter's trips, and Walter's packing list for doing an AT NOBO starting in mid-march, with a finish within 6 months. Then we could compare and contrast the approaches when faced with the same problems.

You cant do that kind of extended trip , in those conditions, in a UL fashion.
Walter appears to seek out the worst conditions, and intentionally get himself stranded for a week or more, because he is equipped to deal with it.
He thrives on pushing that boundary. Mastering conditions that would be deadly to poorly prepared people.
At least thats my impression from reading a few of his trail reports.

To be out there safely for 3 wks in the conditions he sees, you would need most of what he carries.
Id leave the 10 lbs of books at home though, a Kindle would be lighter.

[jeffmeh]

You cant do that kind of extended trip , in those conditions, in a UL fashion.
Walter appears to seek out the worst conditions, and intentionally get himself stranded for a week or more, because he is equipped to deal with it.
He thrives on pushing that boundary. Mastering conditions that would be deadly to poorly prepared people.
At least thats my impression from reading a few of his trail reports.

To be out there safely for 3 wks in the conditions he sees, you would need most of what he carries.
Id leave the 10 lbs of books at home though, a Kindle would be lighter.

That is really my point. These too heavy / too light arguments are pretty silly, given that each side has a very different set of objectives and is going out under very different conditions.

[RCBear]

But to say Fast and Light is hysteria is doing the vast majority a great disservice.

Just my 2c worth (adjusted for inflation)...

Here's the Fast & Light hysteria in action---not judged as good or bad but proof of the abundance of the Fast & Light mindset LIKE ALIENS OVERTAKING THE WORLD!!;)

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=69886

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=50644

http://www.hyperlitemountaingear.com/?gclid=CNDUn_WL97MCFQY5nAodyzgAYA

http://www.ultralightbackpacker.com/

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/index.html Pack Less, Be More???

http://www.adventurealan.com/

http://gossamergear.com/ Take Less, Do More????

http://www.ultimate-ultralight-backpacking.com/

http://www.centerwalk.com/

http://onestep4me.tripod.com/

http://www.backpacking.net/

http://www.prolitegear.com/ultralight_backpacking.html

http://litetornado.tripod.com/

http://www.zpacks.com/

http://samh.net/backpacking/

http://www.lightheartgear.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1&zenid=8f1c77288b24dbf34a16a8793ce82c46

http://ultralightoutfitters.com/
(http://ultralightoutfitters.com/)

Anyone that spends any time online comparing dental setups and weights for hiking is a loser and better never come near my daughters. Read those posts. Idiots

[Tipi Walter]

You cant do that kind of extended trip , in those conditions, in a UL fashion.
Walter appears to seek out the worst conditions, and intentionally get himself stranded for a week or more, because he is equipped to deal with it.
He thrives on pushing that boundary. Mastering conditions that would be deadly to poorly prepared people.
At least thats my impression from reading a few of his trail reports.

To be out there safely for 3 wks in the conditions he sees, you would need most of what he carries.
Id leave the 10 lbs of books at home though, a Kindle would be lighter.

It's not so much that I seek out the worst conditions, it's just that on a long uninterrupted trip these conditions eventually come to me, especially if I stay at 5,000 feet or above, and especially in the winter. Sometimes I do get "stranded" but I don't think of it as such and instead figure I'm the luckiest guy in the world to be living in a snowglobe shook by Miss Nature. When she settles down I start moving again.

"Mastering conditions" is a little out of proportion although after years of living in the Southeast mountains I sort of know what to expect. Knowing what to expect is a good thing and takes away "surprises"---the bane of backpacking. Backpackers as a rule try to avoid surprises---and epic failures (hypothermia, collapsed shelters, wet gear, getting lost) are usually due to unwanted surprises. I've whittled the surprise element down quite a bit over the years but I'd never call it Mastering anything. Staying humble in the woods is a much better mindset.

[Tipi Walter]

Wow, I started a whole new thread with my name on it and didn't even know I did it.

[Alligator]

Wow, I started a whole new thread with my name on it and didn't even know I did it.It's been split out just for you. Enjoy.

[WILLIAM HAYES]

each to his own comfort zone I did the 100 mile wilderness with a 35 lbs pack weight and was very comfortable

[Rasty]

I like the new system.

[coach lou]

When I found this site last year, I had dug out all my old gear and got back to walking. I read all this stuff here and naturally want to lighten the load, to give my old joints a break. I have been replaceing stuff with newer lighter stuff. BUT.....am I happy? I just had a conversation with Hikerboy about winter camping. 'Mainely' about the early dark and long nite. It started me thinking about my early nites this past weekend. I was thinking that I abandoned my old candle lantern that I use to read by, my headlamp is not comfortable to read by and you worry about killing the battery.....anyway, I have left it home in the UL direction. Next hike I'm bringing it. With the help of the WB, I've been able to get my base weight down to the mid 30's, so I figure I can start to carry it again, maybe a spare candle 'just in case'.

[leaftye]

This number is just part of the equation. Let's say you're out for 15 days w/o resupply. Add 30 lbs of food, 1 lb of water and ZAP you've got 50 lbs. Now add your winter kit and maybe a four season tent and oh throw in a couple books and extra batteries.

*Thread was split from Thinking Ultralight (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?89814-Thinking-ultralight)

Even with lots of food, nay, especially with a lot of food and water, the weight of gear is important.

[leaftye]

Stupid has nothing to do with being light, it has everything to do with being unprepared for reasonable conditions.
You can carry a 50 lb pack and still not have raingear or warm clothing or a plan B.

Agreed. Stupid is stupid and is done at any weight.

[Kerosene]

I love the title of this newly spawned thread, "Heavy Thinking with Tipi Walter"! It reminds me of the late evening radio shows with a low, dulcet-voiced host dedicating love songs to his call-in audience, "Deep Thoughts with Jon Tesh" or some such show. :banana

[RED-DOG]

30 lbs of food for 15 days, thats a lot of food.

[Train Wreck]

I'm beyond changing. My point is that the Fast & Light groupthink is in part an advertising campaign trying to change everyone else.

Confession time: I bought into the general lightweight marketing trend with a recent purchase of hiking boots touted to be the lightweight backpacker's answer to mid-high boots KNOWING I have weak ankles. I bought them on the premise you could hike faster, lighter, less foot fatigue, etc. and still have ankle support. Made sure they properly fitted, yada yada yada. I haven't had a sprained ankle in 15 years, wearing the more traditional type hiking boots. First day hike, 3 miles in, on an extremely easy downhill, I sprained my ankle the worst I've ever done. Although properly laced, the "lightweight" mesh and fabric around the ankle offered no resistance to my ankle turning inside the boot. I then promptly twisted the other ankle 5 minutes later. After looking at them more critically, I realized that the "high tops" are no more than a glorified sneaker with a inch or so more of material and a couple extra lace points. Both my regular doctor and an orthopedic specialist have told me to ignore the marketing hype and stick with the old school type boots with real ankle support. The homicidal boots are going back to REI as soon as the swelling goes down, and I've sent my old boots to be resoled.

(I don't mean for this to evolve into a boots thread, so PM me if you want to know the style/brand.)

[rickb]

Resupplying every 4 days is not my idea of a "wilderness backpacking trip." I go out to get away from roads and cars and stores and folding money---give me a few good books and some candles and alot of food and sayonatra for

I am thinking that AT hikers choose to resupply far more frequently these days than in years gone by. I think some of that is driven by the desire to maintain the umbilical cord to plumbing and restaurant food, but also by the allergy to weight.

Not sure how a grown man hiking 15 miles on the AT every day could get by on just 1.25 pound of food day in and day out without being pulled into town like bear to a pile of stale donuts.

we are all different of course-- but less so than ever before.

[Malto]

Trail wreck,
keep at it with the trail runners or lighter boots and I suspect you will find that your ankles, feet and leg get stronger and you will have less issues with turned ankles.

[Ewker]

Trail wreck,
keep at it with the trail runners or lighter boots and I suspect you will find that your ankles, feet and leg get stronger and you will have less issues with turned ankles.


you want him to take your advice over his 2 Doctors...really???

[Rasty]

I am thinking that AT hikers choose to resupply far more frequently these days than in years gone by. I think some of that is driven by the desire to maintain the umbilical cord to plumbing and restaurant food, but also by the allergy to weight.

Not sure how a grown man hiking 15 miles on the AT every day could get by on just 1.25 pound of food day in and day out without being pulled into town like bear to a pile of stale donuts.

we are all different of course-- but less so than ever before.

Weight matters - I weigh 150 pounds so 1.25# to 1.5# of home dehyrdrated food is plenty for me. Get's to around 2500 calories. If I was 180 pounds at the same height I would need 3500 calories to do the same activity.

This is based on an average of 100 calories per ounce which is easy to acheive for the 1.5# per day for me. To get to 1.25# the food would need to be 125 calories per ounce which requires more nuts than I can eat without problems or using fairly heavy amounts of olive oil.

[leaftye]

Foot rotating within footwear sounds like the bad combination of a heel that's too thick and an upper that's not stiff enough. It may also be a matter of the heel cup not fitting correctly. With a low and less wide heel, a shoe rotating about the foot is unlikely to happen. This is a part of shoe education.

Education is what this thread is about, or rather, a lack of it. I think Tipi is reacting to heavyweight backpackers being called stupid and inexperienced by turning around and calling lightweight backpackers stupid and inexperienced. Stupid is stupid.

[Train Wreck]

Foot rotating within footwear sounds like the bad combination of a heel that's too thick and an upper that's not stiff enough. It may also be a matter of the heel cup not fitting correctly. With a low and less wide heel, a shoe rotating about the foot is unlikely to happen. This is a part of shoe education.

Education is what this thread is about, or rather, a lack of it. I think Tipi is reacting to heavyweight backpackers being called stupid and inexperienced by turning around and calling lightweight backpackers stupid and inexperienced. Stupid is stupid.

Leaftye,
The boot's upper was not stiff enough, that was the problem. Even though the shoe was marketed as a lightweight, go-to alternative for folks who usually wear high tops. As I said before, though, I don't mean to turn this into a footwear thread, I was just using my experience as a caveat emptor (let the buyer beware) against mindlessy buying into the whole lightweight marketing campaign in general. I really should have known better. The moderator is free to move my thread to the gear forum if he thinks that's more appropriate.

[Train Wreck]

Anyone that spends any time online comparing dental setups and weights for hiking is a loser and better never come near my daughters. Read those posts. Idiots

LOL!
why did no one just mention the obvious and decide to forgo dental hygiene altogether :D

[leaftye]

Leaftye,
The boot's upper was not stiff enough, that was the problem. Even though the shoe was marketed as a lightweight, go-to alternative for folks who usually wear high tops. As I said before, though, I don't mean to turn this into a footwear thread, I was just using my experience as a caveat emptor (let the buyer beware) against mindlessy buying into the whole lightweight marketing campaign in general. I really should have known better. The moderator is free to move my thread to the gear forum if he thinks that's more appropriate.

Did you think about what I said? Did the upper fail to supply enough stiffness? Of course. I said as much. But it's not alone. With a thin heel, there's not enough leverage to twist the shoe about. It's a combination. Are you familiar with the Archimedes quote:

Give me a place to stand and with a lever I will move the whole world.

A thick heel is a lever. Boots with thick heels absolutely must have stiff uppers to overcome the greater forces that tall heel would impart to the ankle. For an extreme example, take a look at inline/ice skates. The lever action on those is tremendous, and is why they counter the greater ankle rolling forces with extremely stiff uppers.

In any case, I've had high top hiking shoes, and I don't see how the high top can add any meaningful support. It does little more than keep rocks from entering the top of the shoe.

Should you have known better? In retrospect, it's easy to say yes. At least you're seemingly able and willing to learn from your mistakes. That's where it ties into this thread. Folks that aren't willing to learn from the mistakes of others and their own are stupid. It matters not if they pack heavy or light, walk barefoot, in light shoes or 5 pound boots. Playing stupid games has a great tendency to win stupid prizes.

[Train Wreck]

Leaftye,
OK, I understand the physics of what you're saying. If that's the case, it seems like the manufacturer failed to consider it thoroughly enough before redesigning and promoting this particular model. It was an expensive and painful lesson at any rate, and once burned, twice shy, you know, and I'm not likely to try another pair of lightweight hikers and spend another 3 months sitting on the sidelines waiting for torn ligaments to heal.
I still envy those of you who seem to be able to hike in anything from river sandals to crocs to sneakers or whatever...I guess I should be content with the fact that I never get blisters, anyway:)

[weary]

As someone new to backpacking I actually appreciate the Fast and Light guys. I know better than to think I'm ready to get my pack down to the weights they talk about (mostly due to funds) but it is a good reminder that you should be creative and find ways to solve problems that don't involve heavy, one-trick-pony solutions. Anyone foolish enough to be so absorbed with getting their pack weight down that they risk being unprepared is probably foolish enough to make some similar mistakes regardless. I'd say there is an equally risky trend of new backpackers packing in everything they could possibly want and end up ruining their trip (and back) trying to keep up with the weight.

At the end of the day backpacking is about knowing yourself and being responsible for your needs. That cuts both ways; taking too much on a trip can ruin the trip (and even be dangerous in some cases) just as quickly as taking too little. In my mind it is important that your opinion is represented as well as the fast and light guys'. It lets me know as a newbie that I need to figure out what works for me and ignore the 'hype.' For me I fall somewhere in the middle (as do most) but I like to read others' strategies and can adapt a bit of each into my own... Isn't that the point?
Ultralite, I suspect depends a great deal on expected climate conditions and length of trips -- and of course on each hikers budget. You can't safely hike in winter in Maine with typical ultralite gear unless you know the weather predictions in advance. If you are planning a trip weeks in advance as most of us do, your gear planning needs to consider the possibility of energy consuming deep snow and subzero temperatures. If you check the predictions on a Friday in preparation for a 3-day holiday week excursion and the weatherman calls for relatively balmy conditions, one can get by with much less.

Food weight needs again are highly variable. If you are ultraliting for a week or two after months of typical home consumption, it's easy to get by on a pound a day. In fact the body will welcome the change. But if one is on a low budget thru hike that requires minimal town stops, 2 pounds of food a day will seem pretty skimpy by the time the first few weeks have passed.

[Cadenza]

I think Tipi is reacting to heavyweight backpackers being called stupid and inexperienced by turning around and calling lightweight backpackers stupid and inexperienced. Stupid is stupid.


It seems to me that Tipi has only questioned the degree to which marketing hype has skewed the thinking of the masses of sheople.
I haven't noticed him calling anyone stupid for hiking their own hike.

There are different ways to skin a cat. Some are not necessarily wrong; not necessarily right. It just depends on the mission.

When I was much younger I carried a military CFP-90 pack loaded to the gills. Approaching 100 lbs.
As I got older,....it got harder. I kept telling myself, "Next time I'm not bringing so much stuff!"
Finally one day I looked at my buddy and said, "Until we get smaller packs we are never going to lighten the load."

The next year,....we went out with a Becker Patrol Pack, not much bigger than a school book bag.
We darn near froze to death on Stratton bald in July, and this was after having been sunburned there earlier in the day.

Over subsequent years we went through the process of learning the whole UL thing. I enjoyed the process.
But ultimately, we evolved back to sanity. The expected trip, season, weather, location, and conditions dictate the tactics.
If the plan is to cover trail miles in fair weather, I go lighter.
If packing in to hunt in the winter, I take appropriate gear. Heavier sleeping bags, bulky clothes, hatchet and/or saw for processing firewood, etc.
Tomorrow I'm leaving for a short trip. It's early December. I'll be at 5000 feet. Temps could range from 60F high in daytime, down to 20F at night.
My pack will be middle-weight, somewhere between two extremes, with a little margin for the unexpected.
I don't call that "fear." I call it common sense.

Light. Medium. Heavy. It's all good. If I hear a wood thrush just before dusk,....it's even better.

[Malto]

I think there is a huge misconception regarding UL which I think was caused by the need of some to have strict definitions regarding a weigh definition for UL. Nobody in their right mind would go on say a winter trip in Maine carry their normal three season UL setup. BUT, their four season gear setup may weigh say 12 lbs vs the 8 lb three season. In my case some changes beyond my 8lb base would be warmer gloves, a fleece layer, sleeping bag liner, extra socks, capilene bottoms, a white gas stove to melt snow, a VBL suit and snowshoes if needed. (I may have left off a couple of items.) But the same UL principles would be used resulting in a higher base weight than three season but much lower the traditional four season setups.

[Tipi Walter]

I am thinking that AT hikers choose to resupply far more frequently these days than in years gone by. I think some of that is driven by the desire to maintain the umbilical cord to plumbing and restaurant food, but also by the allergy to weight.

Your post reminds me of Eric Ryback who thruhiked the AT in 1971 and often wrote in his book about getting 3 weeks worth of food for the trail and leaving town with a butt heavy pack and the good feeling the weight gave him knowing he could stay out uninterrupted for many days.

[MuddyWaters]

Many (most?) thru hikers today seem to be ready for a town or hostel day every 3-5 days anyway. They have no reason to carry more food. They might be wimps, they might want to drink and socialize, or they might need to do it to get enough to eat.

While it may not be true that you can't carry enough food to eat, the normal hiker food you do carry is certainly not as appetizing as pizza, ice cream, and all-u-can eat buffets.

[WingedMonkey]

While it may not be true that you can't carry enough food to eat, the normal hiker food you do carry is certainly not as appetizing as pizza, ice cream, and all-u-can eat buffets.

I had pizza once in Damascus so I had something to go with the picture of beer. Ice cream twice, if you count the pint I ate for the "half gallon challenge". Three times "all you can eat" if you count KFC in Pearisburg.

Not that I didn't eat a lot in town but it was as I was packing. Half went in my food bag and half went in my belly.

I don't remember a single time that I made a trip to town just to eat restaurant food, other than The Home Place.

And I never dumped any food in the garbage or a hiker box.

I was quite content. But that was just me.

[Franco]

Quoting Tipi Walter :
"My point is that the Fast & Light groupthink is in part an advertising campaign trying to change everyone else."


So you quote from sub-forums called "Ultra Light Hiker Forums' and Super Ultra Light Backpacking ..
(yes it backpacking light might appear to be the reason for those forums...)
Next you will tell us that the guys at Digital Camera Review don't like analogue cameras...


As much as you try to tell everyone that the UL crowd is "preaching" it is you that keeps infesting the lightweight forums with your self imposed heavy weight stuff.
Reality is that the best way to put people off backpacking is to tell them that they need the kind of pack/mat and tent you use.
Here is one of your many gems :
"So what if I start a trip with 80 lbs and only go 4 or 5 miles the first day? "
Exactly , "so what" IF that is what you want to do, however you are not going to do the AT nor any other long trail like that and certainly it isn't may way of having fun on a shorter trail either.
Walking for 4 or 5 miles is more like "camping" than hiking but whatever rocks you boat...
But here is a reminder : Heavier pack= more energy needed=more food and water=more weight=heavier pack...
Safer ? I hardly think so. I rather fall over with a 30lbs pack than a 60lbs one...
(matter of fact I hardly ever fall, might have something to do with the way I walk)

[coach lou]

Quoting Tipi Walter :
"My point is that the Fast & Light groupthink is in part an advertising campaign trying to change everyone else."


So you quote from sub-forums called "Ultra Light Hiker Forums' and Super Ultra Light Backpacking ..
(yes it backpacking light might appear to be the reason for those forums...)
Next you will tell us that the guys at Digital Camera Review don't like analogue cameras...


As much as you try to tell everyone that the UL crowd is "preaching" it is you that keeps infesting the lightweight forums with your self imposed heavy weight stuff.
Reality is that the best way to put people off backpacking is to tell them that they need the kind of pack/mat and tent you use.
Here is one of your many gems :
"So what if I start a trip with 80 lbs and only go 4 or 5 miles the first day? "
Exactly , "so what" IF that is what you want to do, however you are not going to do the AT nor any other long trail like that and certainly it isn't may way of having fun on a shorter trail either.
Walking for 4 or 5 miles is more like "camping" than hiking but whatever rocks you boat...
But here is a reminder : Heavier pack= more energy needed=more food and water=more weight=heavier pack...
Safer ? I hardly think so. I rather fall over with a 30lbs pack than a 60lbs one...
(matter of fact I hardly ever fall, might have something to do with the way I walk)



Hence' this thread:)

[ljcsov]

I am new to this, but I found that I am not terribly interested in the ultralight craze, given I am not a thruhiker by any means. After purchasing all my gear, I realized all of the ultralight gear that was available from cottage industries. Nonetheless, most of my gear is the lighter stuff manufactured by some of the bigger names. I found that I am very pleased with carrying my 18lb baseweight pack. All the gear inside works for me and I am satisfied with the performance of my overall system.

Hey tipi, any suggestions for someone looking to get into winter backpacking? I plan on going for some overnighters this winter and was wondering what I can utilize to extend my normal gear into the colder months of PA.

[Tipi Walter]

Quoting Tipi Walter :
"My point is that the Fast & Light groupthink is in part an advertising campaign trying to change everyone else."


So you quote from sub-forums called "Ultra Light Hiker Forums' and Super Ultra Light Backpacking ..
(yes it backpacking light might appear to be the reason for those forums...)
Next you will tell us that the guys at Digital Camera Review don't like analogue cameras...


As much as you try to tell everyone that the UL crowd is "preaching" it is you that keeps infesting the lightweight forums with your self imposed heavy weight stuff.
Reality is that the best way to put people off backpacking is to tell them that they need the kind of pack/mat and tent you use.
Here is one of your many gems :
"So what if I start a trip with 80 lbs and only go 4 or 5 miles the first day? "
Exactly , "so what" IF that is what you want to do, however you are not going to do the AT nor any other long trail like that and certainly it isn't may way of having fun on a shorter trail either.
Walking for 4 or 5 miles is more like "camping" than hiking but whatever rocks you boat...
But here is a reminder : Heavier pack= more energy needed=more food and water=more weight=heavier pack...
Safer ? I hardly think so. I rather fall over with a 30lbs pack than a 60lbs one...
(matter of fact I hardly ever fall, might have something to do with the way I walk)


First off, my main point was ULers using the word "minimalism" when in fact they use high tech non-minimal gear and live in houses and use electricity and drive cars like the rest of us. So what's so minimal about carrying a minimalist's kit?? And the long list of links I added show the predominance of the Ultralight mindset in the backpacking world. Everyone with a blog thinks in order to be cool they have to be Ultralight. I call this the Ultralight hysteria.

Infesting the lightweight forums? Well, I was kicked out of your special lightweight forum for commenting on what I perceive to be the Fast & Light hype so popular nowadays, along with attaining this speed and lightness by frequent resupplies and short "snippet" trips. My question never got answered---can an ULer still be considered such if they pull an expedition style trip of 3 weeks with no resupply and with a food load of 45 lbs?? Which of their favorite frameless packs will handle such a load?

"Doing the AT" on a forced march is a specialized form of backpacking reliant on frequent town trips, frequent resupplies and a series of hundreds of shelters to access along the trail. This kind of backpacking helps to keep pack loads light. Hauling out an 80 lb pack for 21 days and doing 4 or 5 miles a day may obviously not be fun for you and it of course counters the Fast and Light policy directly. Let's just call it Ultraloading and we'll institute a policy of Slow & Heavy. Where are all the blogs for this?

Thing is, have you ever hiked 5 miles with an 80 lb pack? Do so and you will never again say "walking for 4 or 5 miles is more like camping than hiking." In this situation 5 miles will take all day. So what? The pack gets lighter as the weeks pass. But I don't do it to torture myself but to stay out for long periods of time without resorting to town trips, road crossings, seeing non-backpackers or exchanging cash for food or buffets or motel stays. I'm most interested in long trips without resupply. This means a much greater food weight.

Your equation "heavier pack=more energy needed" is a no-brainer, but I see it thus: "Heavier pack = longer time out and more freedom to stay out without interruption." This is my top priority, not miles walked or going fast or even overall pack weight.

[Tipi Walter]

I am new to this, but I found that I am not terribly interested in the ultralight craze, given I am not a thruhiker by any means. After purchasing all my gear, I realized all of the ultralight gear that was available from cottage industries. Nonetheless, most of my gear is the lighter stuff manufactured by some of the bigger names. I found that I am very pleased with carrying my 18lb baseweight pack. All the gear inside works for me and I am satisfied with the performance of my overall system.

Hey tipi, any suggestions for someone looking to get into winter backpacking? I plan on going for some overnighters this winter and was wondering what I can utilize to extend my normal gear into the colder months of PA.

My most valued winter items are my Western Mountaineering bag, rated to -15, and my Exped downmat sleeping pad, along with some down garments and my fairly large 4 season tent. With some care and consideration a good down bag is a person's ticket to long-term winter camping adventures. There's nothing quite like snuggling up inside an overkill 800-fill bag at 0F and you know you can get to -10F with no problem. A good bag like this is the most important piece of gear in my kit. It gives you that extra edge when things go south.

Beyond this, I think it's a great idea to take what winter gear your have and start sleeping outside in your backyard or on your deck or porch everynight if possible. Get used to using a sleeping pad and see how warm it keeps you and see how well your sleeping bag works. Now's the season for such "training" although I don't think of it as training but as just another opportunity to get my bag nights.

[Franco]

Tipi Walter
Terminology...I agree with you there.
Can't be a minimalist with three pages of UL items...
So I have coined my own term and that is "comfortably light"
Not UltraLight and I have too many bits (well not that many) to be minimalistic.


I suggest the stuff I use to newcomers as well as old timers, oddly enough most can comfortably do a few days out with their 2 pound something backpack and their sub 2 pound tent and so on.
Increasingly I see middle aged men and in particular women that come around to have a look at one of my tents because they have seen others using them and have figured out that for what they do a 2 pound tent is a lot more fun than a 6 pound version.
So I am helping some folk to keep going out.
If going out for 20 days in harsh condition is the way you have fun well good for you but don't impose those weights/requirements onto others.
BTW, if I wanted to do what you do I would use similar stuff too, still a Kindle would replace "books"...

[Franco]

BTW, my dad and his mates used to go on and on about carrying heavy weights like that, for example 50kg bags of cement (and they did...)
They all had something in common , a bad back well before my current age.

[ljcsov]

Thanks Tipi. I appreciate your feedback.

I think I might try one of those SOL Escape Bivys to extend the range of my bag beyond its 15 degree rating. Other than that, I think I have mostly what I need to do some overnighters. I always worry about my legs in camp though.

[Franco]

"I think it's a great idea to take what winter gear your have and start sleeping outside in your backyard "

Definitely a good application of that advice would be regarding the SOL Escape Bivvy...
I certainly would experiment with that at home first.

[Tipi Walter]

"I think it's a great idea to take what winter gear your have and start sleeping outside in your backyard "

Definitely a good application of that advice would be regarding the SOL Escape Bivvy...
I certainly would experiment with that at home first.


So would I. Augmenting an "insufficient" winter bag with a bivy works but comes at a cost---confining claustrophobia. Ljcsov---if you've ever spent a night zipped up tight in a mummy bag and found it too confining and tight, well, adding a bivy over it could push you into a fit of discomfort---unless it's for survival purposes only. Here's what happens---You toss and turn inside your mummy bag and the zipper gets on the opposite side of the bivy's zipper. Then in a panic you overheat and try to get out but cannot easily find the bag zipper or the bivy zipper.

A bivy can increase the rating of your bag and you should try it first like Franco says. If you don't find it confining or uncomfortable it just may work for you. And when you're out in extreme cold a VBL inside a bag and a bivy outside may be the ticket, but I'm talking -20F or -30F.

[ljcsov]

Thanks guys.

I am thinking that instead of taking the thermolite liner or bivy approach might not be the best route. Instead, I think it may be worth making sure I have proper clothing to wear inside my bag.

[Stink Bug]

First off, my main point was ULers using the word "minimalism" when in fact they use high tech non-minimal gear and live in houses and use electricity and drive cars like the rest of us. So what's so minimal about carrying a minimalist's kit?? And the long list of links I added show the predominance of the Ultralight mindset in the backpacking world. Everyone with a blog thinks in order to be cool they have to be Ultralight. I call this the Ultralight hysteria.

Infesting the lightweight forums? Well, I was kicked out of your special lightweight forum for commenting on what I perceive to be the Fast & Light hype so popular nowadays, along with attaining this speed and lightness by frequent resupplies and short "snippet" trips. My question never got answered---can an ULer still be considered such if they pull an expedition style trip of 3 weeks with no resupply and with a food load of 45 lbs?? Which of their favorite frameless packs will handle such a load?

"Doing the AT" on a forced march is a specialized form of backpacking reliant on frequent town trips, frequent resupplies and a series of hundreds of shelters to access along the trail. This kind of backpacking helps to keep pack loads light. Hauling out an 80 lb pack for 21 days and doing 4 or 5 miles a day may obviously not be fun for you and it of course counters the Fast and Light policy directly. Let's just call it Ultraloading and we'll institute a policy of Slow & Heavy. Where are all the blogs for this?

Thing is, have you ever hiked 5 miles with an 80 lb pack? Do so and you will never again say "walking for 4 or 5 miles is more like camping than hiking." In this situation 5 miles will take all day. So what? The pack gets lighter as the weeks pass. But I don't do it to torture myself but to stay out for long periods of time without resorting to town trips, road crossings, seeing non-backpackers or exchanging cash for food or buffets or motel stays. I'm most interested in long trips without resupply. This means a much greater food weight.

Your equation "heavier pack=more energy needed" is a no-brainer, but I see it thus: "Heavier pack = longer time out and more freedom to stay out without interruption." This is my top priority, not miles walked or going fast or even overall pack weight.

For the sake of, hopefully, a reasoned discourse, what terminology would you use? How would you describe mine, and countless others', styles of backpacking? Help me understand as, from my viewpoint, when I go out, my kit is pretty minimal. How does it make a difference what the tech level is? Back when I was in the military, I've used a poncho as a bivouac. It was circa 1960's tech, so does that fit with your perception of minimal? Honestly, what difference would it have made if the poncho were made of silnylon, Gortex, cuban fiber or spinnaker?

You said earlier, "...take what you WANT", and I replied that my wants and needs are pretty similar. For example, I don't want separate sleep clothes when a clean, dry pair of socks is all that I want. I don't want 2 pairs of underwear, I don't want multiple base layers or, sometimes, even a stove (especially in the summer) when no-cook is fine. So by the very definition of the word, my kit is minimal, right? I honestly don't understand why you're trying to draw a parallel between living in a house, using electricity, driving a car etc which honestly has nothing to do with their backpacking style or their hiking philosophy.

And on to your question in which I feel you're being purposely ridiculous. Of course a frameless pack wouldn't carry 45lbs of food, but then they were never designed for that, so it's a moot point. Just like you wouldn't take a Hilleberg Altai XP as a solo tent on one of your winter trips. You'd chose the right tool for the right job, and to do otherwise, you'd agree, would be foolhardy.

I have "hiked", for days at a time with an 80lb pack, sometimes, with the rest of the gear, it was closer to 100+. Then, at the end of that day, having to erect a heavy canvas tent, it wasn't fun and not something I ever wish to do again. The fact that you purposely do this is commendable and I really do have the utmost respect for your choices, would it be too much to ask that you afford us the same courtesy?

[Feral Bill]

So would I. Augmenting an "insufficient" winter bag with a bivy works but comes at a cost---confining claustrophobia. Ljcsov---if you've ever spent a night zipped up tight in a mummy bag and found it too confining and tight, well, adding a bivy over it could push you into a fit of discomfort---unless it's for survival purposes only. Here's what happens---You toss and turn inside your mummy bag and the zipper gets on the opposite side of the bivy's zipper. Then in a panic you overheat and try to get out but cannot easily find the bag zipper or the bivy zipper.

A bivy can increase the rating of your bag and you should try it first like Franco says. If you don't find it confining or uncomfortable it just may work for you. And when you're out in extreme cold a VBL inside a bag and a bivy outside may be the ticket, but I'm talking -20F or -30F.
At those temperatures I prefer a double bag system. It gives great flexibility compared to a single, very thick bag. Costs a bit of the dreaded weight, though.

[Mags]

First off, my main point was ULers using the word "minimalism" when in fact they use high tech non-minimal gear and live in houses and use electricity and drive cars like the rest of us. S


TW is obviously talking about me. :)

That's OK. My trip reports never mention gear. So I'll still call myself a minimalist kind of guy. It's what co-workers call me, friends call me and what our wedding guests remarked on and so on.

Nothing to do with gear...just a mindset. Be it backpacking, climbing or life.

Cook at home rather than go out. When we do go out, it is post-hike and we enjoy a burger and a beer. Buy a used car vs a brand new one. Clip coupons proudly. No cable. A wedding with food by Costco, burgers on the grill and camping for our lodging in the beautiful aspen forest. (http://www.pmags.com/wedding-in-the-woods-sept-22nd)

It is what allows Adrianna and I do to enjoy the important things in life: Hut trips with friends, plan on spending time in Chaco Canyon (full moon a couple of days before, too!) and making the outdoors part of our life together.

Why discuss the tools we use to accomplish said experiences? More importantly, why care about the other tools someone uses?

TW loves his gear. To me, it is just a tool. To TW, since he IS gear focused, hard to comprehend the idea. Hence the remarks.

Merriwether Lewis said "As we passed on it seemed as if those scenes of visionary enchantment would never have an end"

TW would wonder what kinda of canoe and paddle he used to go through the White Cliffs of Montana.... .;)

To each their own. I'll just stick to calling myself a minimalist as that is what is going to allow us (meaning Adrianna and I) to have the kind of life we want.

TW can hike his five miles in the same general corner of the SE Appalachians year and year out, throw stones at people (metaphorically) and can have the kind of life he wants.

It's just gear in the end and not very important. To TW, it IS all about the gear and is very important.

So it goes.

[zelph]

Doing the AT" on a forced march is a specialized form of backpacking reliant on frequent town trips, frequent resupplies and a series of hundreds of shelters to access along the trail.

Really roughing it there "hundreds of shelters" "frequent town trips" and I like the "forced march" way of an enjoyable time on the trail.:D
Couldn't resist:p

[Del Q]

Wow, what a thread. If money is not a huge issue, there is more and more gear that is better and lighter, right? To me ultralight today means ponying up more mula and NOT taking anything that is not mission critical, carbon fiber and new materials I am sure coming soon will cost more.

Forgetting water, the food "thing" is really the issue, as for gear, there is a certain amount of food and gear that is just needed, ie summer vs "TP" weather, assuming that regardless of season you DO NOT overpack on the gear side, this comes down to JUST FOOD.

I have not ever camped or hiked for extended periods of time in the winter or heavy snow, but.............calories are calories.

I went NO COOK about 3 years ago and have not yet looked back.........there are a ton of great food options that require no cooking. This saves weight and complication. On my last hike uncooked ramen noodles and uncooked instant oatmeal was really great to be eating. This simplicity continues to enhance my hikes and my life, on and off the trail.

TP - have you ever gone out in NO COOK mode?

[Malto]

Thanks guys.

I am thinking that instead of taking the thermolite liner or bivy approach might not be the best route. Instead, I think it may be worth making sure I have proper clothing to wear inside my bag.

I have used the exact setup with my 20deg Golite UL-20 and it has seen action down below zero. I would not discount that setup. Further take that set and add VBL and you have the exact setup that I will be testing in PA this winter. Now we just need some snow.

[Tipi Walter]

Wow, what a thread. If money is not a huge issue, there is more and more gear that is better and lighter, right? To me ultralight today means ponying up more mula and NOT taking anything that is not mission critical, carbon fiber and new materials I am sure coming soon will cost more.

Forgetting water, the food "thing" is really the issue, as for gear, there is a certain amount of food and gear that is just needed, ie summer vs "TP" weather, assuming that regardless of season you DO NOT overpack on the gear side, this comes down to JUST FOOD.

I have not ever camped or hiked for extended periods of time in the winter or heavy snow, but.............calories are calories.

I went NO COOK about 3 years ago and have not yet looked back.........there are a ton of great food options that require no cooking. This saves weight and complication. On my last hike uncooked ramen noodles and uncooked instant oatmeal was really great to be eating. This simplicity continues to enhance my hikes and my life, on and off the trail.

TP - have you ever gone out in NO COOK mode?

I went several years on the No Cook plan back in the 1990's after a couple Svea 123's died and it was liberating at first but then I found I could carry more dehydrated foods and a bigger food load if I got water from the woods and didn't carry the water which exists in a small amount in no-cook foods. And after getting serious with home dehydration I'll never go back to no-cook backpacking unless I do a short 4 day trip.

Plus, and here's a big plus, I like the variety of more food options a stove offers such as mac and cheese, hot chocolate, hot teas, cooked wild edibles, melting snow in the winter or getting a hot water bottle going for cold feet. Non stop no-cook "snacking" has another drawback to people with weak teeth or cracked teeth or teeth with crowns and bridges (or with fewer teeth)---it's harder on the teeth. It's always nice to cook up something hot and soft and dig in, maybe it's a psychological thing.

I've eaten oatmeal many times w/o cooking and it's okay but I prefer to cook it up with black walnuts and a dab of butter and cup my cold gloved hands over a hot titanium pot for a meal. I generally cook up one meal a day on a trip and the rest of the time dig into my "snackables" bag---a sack full of no-cook foods. Both a snackables and a cookables bag are needed on a long backpacking trip to keep my appetite and my interest going. In fact on many trips I eat solely from my snackables bag and don't even cook for a couple days. But I also like using up my fuel load by cooking.

I know some backpackers can eat ramens cold and soak dehyradated foods in cold water for a couple hours and have a meal but I'd rather cook it up into something a bit more savory and warm. Mac and cheese soaked in cold water? No thanks. Dehydrated rice in cold water? No thanks. Raw eggs? No thanks. But I do take apples and fresh pears and avocados and grapes and cabbage and onions and bananas sometimes so I guess these are no cook too.

And for foraging a cook pot is vital. Ever try eating rock tripe raw? Or trillium leaves? Or burdock root? Or nettle leaves? Gotta love the stove.

MISSION CRITICAL
Your first comment about not taking anything not mission critical hits at the crux of the problem. It's part of the "right tool for the job" mindset. Why take a -10F bag out in the summer? Wrong tool for the job. Problem is, on long trips to the higher reaches of an area, like 5,500 feet in the mountains of TN and NC, well, there's no way to know what gear may or may not be mission critical. For a 3 day weekend trip in the winter a backpacker can read the weather report and head out with the right gear, the right tools. Stretch that trip out to 21 days and the first night at 40F in calm conditions becomes on Day 8 -10F in blizzard winds on an open bald requiring all 16+ stakes for your four season tent. There's no way to anticipate which tools will work for a job that changes week to week.

So, my fixation on gear. Overkill gear. Blizzard and spindrift gear. "What If" gear. It's important. "Walking in Beauty" is the whole point, gear helps me do it.

[MuddyWaters]

First off, my main point was ULers using the word "minimalism" when in fact they use high tech non-minimal gear and live in houses and use electricity and drive cars like the rest of us. So what's so minimal about carrying a minimalist's kit?? And the long list of links I added show the predominance of the Ultralight mindset in the backpacking world. Everyone with a blog thinks in order to be cool they have to be Ultralight. I call this the Ultralight hysteria.

Infesting the lightweight forums? Well, I was kicked out of your special lightweight forum for commenting on what I perceive to be the Fast & Light hype so popular nowadays, along with attaining this speed and lightness by frequent resupplies and short "snippet" trips. My question never got answered---can an ULer still be considered such if they pull an expedition style trip of 3 weeks with no resupply and with a food load of 45 lbs?? Which of their favorite frameless packs will handle such a load?

"Doing the AT" on a forced march is a specialized form of backpacking reliant on frequent town trips, frequent resupplies and a series of hundreds of shelters to access along the trail. This kind of backpacking helps to keep pack loads light. Hauling out an 80 lb pack for 21 days and doing 4 or 5 miles a day may obviously not be fun for you and it of course counters the Fast and Light policy directly. Let's just call it Ultraloading and we'll institute a policy of Slow & Heavy. Where are all the blogs for this?

Thing is, have you ever hiked 5 miles with an 80 lb pack? Do so and you will never again say "walking for 4 or 5 miles is more like camping than hiking." In this situation 5 miles will take all day. So what? The pack gets lighter as the weeks pass. But I don't do it to torture myself but to stay out for long periods of time without resorting to town trips, road crossings, seeing non-backpackers or exchanging cash for food or buffets or motel stays. I'm most interested in long trips without resupply. This means a much greater food weight.

Your equation "heavier pack=more energy needed" is a no-brainer, but I see it thus: "Heavier pack = longer time out and more freedom to stay out without interruption." This is my top priority, not miles walked or going fast or even overall pack weight.

There is hiking, and there is camping, and there is everything in between.
Many people who are new to hiking, pack as if they are going camping. They dont know any different.
Educating them to lighten up, allows them to enjoy themselves more, instead of suffering under a 60 lb pack for a weekend.
This is at the core of the UL "craze", (which has been a "craze" for only 20 yrs or so).
That doesnt mean converting them to UL, it means making them aware of how to lighten their pack, as much as they see fit. They are currently the "slow and heavy" group, and many of them apparently want out of it.

Nothing wrong with being slow and heavy either. It all depends on personal goals. Obviously in deep winter conditions when you risk chance of becoming the newest "Donner party", slow and heavy can be good.

Persons interested in being UL or SUL, generally have a desire to cover high mileage, for whatever reason. Could be to say they can, could be to make the most of limited vacation time. But a major reason , at least out west, is to be able to access places that would otherwise be difficult too.

Andrew Skurka could not have done his 4700 mile Alaska-Yukon trek in a slow and heavy fashion.

In my Circuit, I can carry about 10 days food if I push the wt up to ~27 lbs. This would allow me to cover 150-200 miles in mountain terrain with good trails, without resupply. That is a big benefit of being light. However on the AT, almost no one does this, because you dont simply dont need to, towns arent that far apart.

One might be able to stay out longer carrying a huge heavy pack, but preparedness for adverse conditions aside, the lighter pack may very well be able to cover more miles, many more, in their much shorter time, and in greater comfort. When hiking , what is the real goal?

Depends on the person.

[Violent Green]

I actually WANT less than I NEED

When you want more than you have, you think you need.
But when you think more than you want, your thoughts begin to bleed.
I think I need to find a bigger place.
'Cause when you have more than you think, you need more space.

Society - Crazy indeed.

Ryan

[Sarcasm the elf]

Your post reminds me of Eric Ryback who thruhiked the AT in 1971 and often wrote in his book about getting 3 weeks worth of food for the trail and leaving town with a butt heavy pack and the good feeling the weight gave him knowing he could stay out uninterrupted for many days.

Tipi- I have always admired your trip reports and gear philosophy, and while you'll never see me humping an 90lb pack around (my white collar career knees won't let me) I absolutely get it.

I find it funny that even after this thread was removed from the UL forum, many people feel the need to continue defending their UL philosophy. I've got nothing against UL, much as I have nothing against Tipi's base camping style, to me they are apples and oranges. Much as he said in an earlier post, heavyweight philosophy would not work for those looking to bag big miles on a thru hike in the same way that I can say from experience that base camping in cold conditions sucks in lightweight gear. Neither philosophy is better or worse, it just depends what you want to do on your trip.

For what it's worth, if any new members are reading this and looking into tips on true winter camping, follow Tipi's posts and advice. His trip reports were a huge help to me when I was getting back into winter camping, and looking back I'm still amazed to say that I have faced subzero nights (*f) in comfort after proper planning.

[Sarcasm the elf]

Society - Crazy indeed.

Ryan

Kinda like you're starting for the top?

[Cookerhiker]

I consider this to be Camping as defined by corporate America---in fact RV types call this "camping". Weird, ain't it?

http://images.affinitygroup.com/webcontent/woodalls.com/rvfeatured.jpg (http://images.affinitygroup.com/webcontent/woodalls.com/rvfeatured.jpg)

Been there as recently as a week ago - camping 2 nights at Gulf Islands National Seashore in my 1-person backpacking tent, I and 2 other parties were the only tenters out of 32 sites filled with RVs. The second night, I was the only tenter left standing.

Those who like car-camping without the RV city syndrome may like Johnny Molloy's book The Best in Tent Camping - West Virginia. The subtitle says it all: A Guide for Car Campers Who Hate RVs, Concrete Slabs, and Loud Portable Stereos.

[Wise Old Owl]

Wow TP got his cafe.... now its Heavy.... great work folks....

[Tipi Walter]

Been there as recently as a week ago - camping 2 nights at Gulf Islands National Seashore in my 1-person backpacking tent, I and 2 other parties were the only tenters out of 32 sites filled with RVs. The second night, I was the only tenter left standing.

Those who like car-camping without the RV city syndrome may like Johnny Molloy's book The Best in Tent Camping - West Virginia. The subtitle says it all: A Guide for Car Campers Who Hate RVs, Concrete Slabs, and Loud Portable Stereos.

And don't forget the most hateful of all---gasoline generators to provide "camping" electricity.

[Mags]

I've got nothing against UL, much as I have nothing against Tipi's base camping style, to me they are apples and oranges.

Agreed. So why does he need to attack others? Heck..only one person mentioned their gear weight or even what gear is brought:O

For all you know, some of us are secretly packing 10 lbs of marinated pork loin. :)

[Rasty]

Agreed. So why does he need to attack others? Heck..only one person mentioned their gear weight or even what gear is brought:O

For all you know, some of us are secretly packing 10 lbs of marinated pork loin. :)

Now that is well worth the weight (Pun intended)!

[Mags]

Now that is well worth the weight (Pun intended)!

A certain short, bald guy is known to take it on winter trips with a 3 liter box of wine, root vegetables and a pound of coffee.

The same short, bald and a little dark (and not too handsome) guy who never mentions gear in his trip reports may even base camp from time to time.

;)

[MuddyWaters]

And don't forget the most hateful of all---gasoline generators to provide "camping" electricity.

Ummm, but you cant run your airconditioner or microwave without them!


In the hot humid lowlands in the southeast, not uncommon for even tent campers at campgrounds and state parks to have a small 5000 btu AC in the tent doorway in the summer. Its either that, or stay at home.

[Cookerhiker]

And don't forget the most hateful of all---gasoline generators to provide "camping" electricity.

Oh man, that was awful: Alaska, summer of 2010, camping on a pond with loons & beavers, nice and quiet, camping allowed, no "facilities" when this RV pulls up and the guy announces that he has to run his generator all night to keep his fish frozen. And if we didn't like it, he said we could leave.:mad:

[JAK]

Grabbing a coffee here at the Tipi Cafe before heading out to do my paper route.
Bracing for rain, but at least the papers are light today.

[bardo]

Walter,

Thanks for the different perspectives. Forums of all subjects really lend themselves to a hive culture I've noticed over the years.

[Sarcasm the elf]

Agreed. So why does he need to attack others? Heck..only one person mentioned their gear weight or even what gear is brought:O

For all you know, some of us are secretly packing 10 lbs of marinated pork loin. :)

Thats a fair point, and I am glad that this was split into a separate thread that's not in the UL forum.

I have to ask though, how do you cook a 10lb marinated pork loin on a dirtbag alcohol stove?

[OzJacko]

I totally admire the way Tipi goes about his hikes and I think an extension of this thread into something permanent along the lines of "tips for expedition hiking" would be a good thing. Possibly even a double thread, with the 2nd one catering to hiking from a "car camp" base. It would be one way to stage people into hiking from car camping.
I can understand Tipi's annoyance at the U/L trend but don't think he should post in the U/L threads and instead leave them to the people interested in U/L.
I'm glad the mods cut this thread and moved it as it wasn't the right place for it.
I have an interest in both threads because I see both fast and light and heavy and slow hiking in my future. Different trails, different climates etc require different strategies.
At the moment my focus is thru hiking (the AT first and then others) and this works best in my mind with at least a fair lean to lightweight.
But a leisurely hike to "wilderness" and back is also something I would love to do in the future. I can think of no one who's tips would be more valuable for this than Tipi's.

[brotheral]

I just have to throw this in....
This is car camping (for me) at Elkmont in GSMNP.
I agree with Tipi Walter. I just love the outdoor experience. Miles per day are no concern....:sun

[Tipi Walter]

I just have to throw this in....
This is car camping (for me) at Elkmont in GSMNP.
I agree with Tipi Walter. I just love the outdoor experience. Miles per day are no concern....:sun

I haven't yet reached the point where I "abide" car camping:)but maybe someday I'll be doing it. I enjoy seeing old hobo-types living in the Cherokee national forest in their pickup trucks and staying put at a spot for 2 weeks and then moving on to another spot. Some of them remind me of old mountain men of the 1840's with big beards and hatchets except now they're nomads in pickup trucks. They seem to have no fixed address and stay out permanently.

The outdoor experience is the name of the game and mileage comes 3rd or 4th on the list of priorities although I do like to move every day and only pull basecamp zeros in crappy rainstorms or mountain blizzards. Moving every day is a priority and important to me for some reason. I guess it gives me the righteous excuse to eat heartily at every new camp, otherwise I'd just be sitting around all day in one spot snacking.

[OzJacko]

It's a bit of a tradition amongst retirees in Australia to buy a big 4WD and a caravan (or Winnebago type thing) and "do Australia". i.e. travel around it, usually taking 6 months to 2 years to do it.
My wife and I intend to sometime in the next 10 years (with a small 4wd and a camper trailer if I get my way).
It's definitely not hiking but there often is a decent percentage who take lengthy hikes in different spots. It's definitely scenic and haven't met one yet that regretted it.

[Cookerhiker]

It's a bit of a tradition amongst retirees in Australia to buy a big 4WD and a caravan (or Winnebago type thing) and "do Australia". i.e. travel around it, usually taking 6 months to 2 years to do it.
My wife and I intend to sometime in the next 10 years (with a small 4wd and a camper trailer if I get my way).
It's definitely not hiking but there often is a decent percentage who take lengthy hikes in different spots. It's definitely scenic and haven't met one yet that regretted it.

I spent a month in Oz mid-November to mid-December of '07 and we rented a campervan - much smaller than a monster RV but it suited us well.

[OzJacko]

I spent a month in Oz mid-November to mid-December of '07 and we rented a campervan - much smaller than a monster RV but it suited us well.
If you went inland at that time of year you could have cooked on a piece of tin left in the sun....:D

[Mags]

Thats a fair point, and I am glad that this was split into a separate thread that's not in the UL forum.

I have to ask though, how do you cook a 10lb marinated pork loin on a dirtbag alcohol stove?

Who said I always bring an alcohol stove? :) I find if you bring the same gear for every trip, and if you continuosly do the same type of trip, it's a boring outdoor world.

I went solo backpacking over UTah where I went hiking all day.
I am going to Chaco Canyon (http://www.nps.gov/chcu/index.htm) (not exactly backpacking terrain) at the end of this month car camping (http://www.pmags.com/the-joy-of-car-camping) (during a fall moon no less!) mixed in with hiking and exploring.
We should have it mainly to ourselves.

Both trips wil be awesome.

(Out West, easy to have 'remote' car camping esp in the winter months / off season. And for certains areas and activities, backpacking is not an option. )

[Cookerhiker]

If you went inland at that time of year you could have cooked on a piece of tin left in the sun....:D

And we did:D. Especially since the AC conked out.:eek:

Oh, you're referring to our meals - I was talking about our bodies.:p

[bardo]

I haven't yet reached the point where I "abide" car camping:)but maybe someday I'll be doing it. I enjoy seeing old hobo-types living in the Cherokee national forest in their pickup trucks and staying put at a spot for 2 weeks and then moving on to another spot. Some of them remind me of old mountain men of the 1840's with big beards and hatchets except now they're nomads in pickup trucks. They seem to have no fixed address and stay out permanently.


There's more of us than you think. We grow tired of the hampster wheel. Except I upgraded to a fancy 84 chevy camper van ;)

[chiefduffy]

I totally admire the way Tipi goes about his hikes and I think an extension of this thread into something permanent along the lines of "tips for expedition hiking" would be a good thing. Possibly even a double thread, with the 2nd one catering to hiking from a "car camp" base. It would be one way to stage people into hiking from car camping.
I can understand Tipi's annoyance at the U/L trend but don't think he should post in the U/L threads and instead leave them to the people interested in U/L.
I'm glad the mods cut this thread and moved it as it wasn't the right place for it.
I have an interest in both threads because I see both fast and light and heavy and slow hiking in my future. Different trails, different climates etc require different strategies.
At the moment my focus is thru hiking (the AT first and then others) and this works best in my mind with at least a fair lean to lightweight.
But a leisurely hike to "wilderness" and back is also something I would love to do in the future. I can think of no one who's tips would be more valuable for this than Tipi's.

.........+1

[pyroman53]

A coupla years ago, in the Smokys, at Double Spring Gap Shelter I think it was, there was a group of middle-aged guys from Ohio who had hiked up from Fontana Dam, night 3 for them. For dinner, they busted out Brats with all the fixings that smelled absolutely amazing especially since I was eating my usual just add water dehydrated crap. Then, after dinner, the guy who was in charge of dinner that night brought out ESKIMO PIES for all!! He had carried them wrapped in 12 pounds of dry ice for 30 miles or something. Why? Cause his trail name is Eskimo Pie.
As Gallagher always said: "Style…you gotta have style!” Whatever yours is - make it your own and I'll respect you! But don't tell me what mine should be.

[double d]

I've enjoyed all the great posts on Tipi's thread, but I think for Christmas the AT Santa should bring TipiWalter a new (and at a great savings of a one or two ounces), a very lightweight, micro-pocket rocket that can fit deep in the bowels of his backpack! Great thread.

[RCBear]

I haven't yet reached the point where I "abide" car camping:)but maybe someday I'll be doing it. I enjoy seeing old hobo-types living in the Cherokee national forest in their pickup trucks and staying put at a spot for 2 weeks and then moving on to another spot. Some of them remind me of old mountain men of the 1840's with big beards and hatchets except now they're nomads in pickup trucks. They seem to have no fixed address and stay out permanently.
/QUOTE]

I had to chuckle in reading Tipi's description at the above dudes :) I love reading your stuff tipi, but in looking at some of your trail journal photos, I could easily have mistaken you for Uncle Si from the TV show Duck Dynasty !!

[HikerMom58]

I totally admire the way Tipi goes about his hikes and I think an extension of this thread into something permanent along the lines of "tips for expedition hiking" would be a good thing. Possibly even a double thread, with the 2nd one catering to hiking from a "car camp" base. It would be one way to stage people into hiking from car camping.
I can understand Tipi's annoyance at the U/L trend but don't think he should post in the U/L threads and instead leave them to the people interested in U/L.
I'm glad the mods cut this thread and moved it as it wasn't the right place for it.
I have an interest in both threads because I see both fast and light and heavy and slow hiking in my future. Different trails, different climates etc require different strategies.
At the moment my focus is thru hiking (the AT first and then others) and this works best in my mind with at least a fair lean to lightweight.
But a leisurely hike to "wilderness" and back is also something I would love to do in the future. I can think of no one who's tips would be more valuable for this than Tipi's.

This comment is one of the most fair and balanced comments I've ever read. OzJacko...you really nailed this one. I agree with everything you said!! :)

[Papa D]

I'm a johnny come lately to this thread - I admire Tipi Walter - I've seen him many a time in Joyce Kilmer Wilderness and loving whatever weather the mountains bring - - no-one can ever carry everything they need to survive forever in a backpack - eventually, we all must re-supply in some form or fashion - even hunter / gatherers "hunt or gather." The important thing is taking what you need for the objective planned. If I'm going to hike multiple 25 mile days (like a big AT section hike or thru-hike), the kit is going to be light and I'll anticipate needing lots of re-supplies, support, gear change-outs, avail of coin laundries, etc. - - if the objective is spending 15 days in a wilderness area, like Tipi, the weight goes up (though I'd probably never carry 80 pounds). The point is that folks should work on learning what they need and don't need and carry the right mix - that's it.

[Cadenza]

.....I admire Tipi Walter - - (*much snippage*) - - if the objective is spending 15 days in a wilderness area, like Tipi, the weight goes up (though I'd probably never carry 80 pounds). The point is that folks should work on learning what they need and don't need and carry the right mix - that's it.



Agreed. I admire him too. I wish I had the time to do what he does.
I just ran into Tipi on the trail this past Monday. He's still there, was planning on just over two weeks, and will be back sometime shortly before Christmas.

He invited me to try on his pack. I can tell you that I wouldn't want to carry it very far! His was probably a good 20 pounds heavier than the pack I was carrying.
But it was amazing as I watched him leave camp, headed up the trail as if he were carrying a book bag. He is prepared for whatever "Miss Nature" throws at him. I can't think of anyone who understands how to cope with whatever comes any better than Walter. He not only has the gear, but the mental skill set to back it up.

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff143/61panhead/Camping/IMG_0253-1.jpg

[Papa D]

Agreed. I admire him too. I wish I had the time to do what he does.
I just ran into Tipi on the trail this past Monday. He's still there, was planning on just over two weeks, and will be back sometime shortly before Christmas.

He invited me to try on his pack. I can tell you that I wouldn't want to carry it very far! His was probably a good 20 pounds heavier than the pack I was carrying.
But it was amazing as I watched him leave camp, headed up the trail as if he were carrying a book bag. He is prepared for whatever "Miss Nature" throws at him. I can't think of anyone who understands how to cope with whatever comes any better than Walter. He not only has the gear, but the mental skill set to back it up.

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff143/61panhead/Camping/IMG_0253-1.jpg

Yep - but I might suggest that, Tipi Walter praise aside, that there is a certain element of mountain safety and preparedness in being light - - you can move rapidly to a better campsite when bad weather comes in (or bad people). Being light moves you down the trail faster and (to some extent safer) in a lot of ways. There are considerations to just about everything.

[Franco]

That picture should be the official " how to create the most inefficient way to carry your load" photo.People go to great lengths to achieve a very unbalanced load and that is a very good example of the required technique in doing so.
Now I better understand some of Tipi's comments about tent placement...

[Cadenza]

Just to be clear,.....that is NOT Tipi.
It is ME trying on his pack. He wears it much better than I. ;)

As he gets further into the trip, the food bags get smaller. As they become empty it frees up more space inside the pack. As space becomes available, some of those items hanging outside the pack are moved inside the pack. I'm sure he would look more like a textbook load near the end of a trip.

Three BIG food bags take up a lot of volume!

[Tipi Walter]

Just to be clear,.....that is NOT Tipi.
It is ME trying on his pack. He wears it much better than I. ;)

As he gets further into the trip, the food bags get smaller. As they become empty it frees up more space inside the pack. As space becomes available, some of those items hanging outside the pack are moved inside the pack. I'm sure he would look more like a textbook load near the end of a trip.

Three BIG food bags take up a lot of volume!

It was great running into you,Cadenza! Trying on my pack was nifty though it seemed heavier for some reason after you put it on and then gave it back. 14 days after seeing you I returned to the Bob on my way out and got walloped by a mean and nasty rain and windstorm. Typical Bob Bald tumult.

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2012/15-Day-December-Decompression/i-Cv7KSfS/0/L/TRIP%20140%20012-L.jpg

Here's your setup on the Bob.

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2012/15-Day-December-Decompression/i-s6rfpTV/0/L/TRIP%20140%20013-L.jpg
Cadenza hanging out in camp.

[Cadenza]

That's funny. The Starbucks coffee cup lasted me three days before it started leaking.
My preferred method is to reheat my coffee in the aluminum cup and pour it into the Starbucks paper cup so it doesn't burn my lips.
Sooner or later the Starbucks cup always becomes a fire starter. :)

[oldwetherman]

Tipi. I'm looking for some advice and I figure your the most knowledgeable person to ask. I'm looking for a glove or mitten combination to keep my hands comfortable on a below freezing day when it sleeting/snowing and the wind is howling.....and weight is not a factor........what do use use/recommend? Thanks

[swjohnsey]

http://raggedmountain.com/index.php/hats-gloves-socks/mittens

[Tipi Walter]

Tipi. I'm looking for some advice and I figure your the most knowledgeable person to ask. I'm looking for a glove or mitten combination to keep my hands comfortable on a below freezing day when it sleeting/snowing and the wind is howling.....and weight is not a factor........what do use use/recommend? Thanks

Over the years I've used everything from cheap fiberfill mittens to ski gloves to hunter's gloves to wool Army gloves/liners to Walmart $5 dollar fleece gloves and to thin fleece gloves made my Mt Hardwear and North Face---called inserts by some. Gloves are like socks---they last a couple years and need to be replaced, especially if you do alot of winter camping requiring outdoor work like scrapping snow off the ground for the tent. Hands work best for this unless you bring a shovel and so gloves get shredded.

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2010/With-Hootyhoo-in-a-Bob-Bald/i-kHKdw2S/0/L/TRIP%20106%20124-L.jpg
Here's a pair of $5 walmart fleece gloves---I always bring two pair on a trip because one always ends up wet and frozen. They're warm enough if they don't get wet---and disposable if needed.

http://assets.trailspace.com/assets/0/b/f/1405119/TRIP-140-259.jpg
On my last recent trip (this month) I ran into my backpacking buddy Patman who turned me onto a pair of down mittens with a waterproof shell made by Mt Hardwear. Light and warm. Here he is on the trail showing off his set. While expensive I think I'm gonna get a pair in size Medium and use them for my go-to winter hiking gloves---NOT work gloves. Another pair will be carried as possible inserts and work. Here's the link---
http://www.o2gearshop.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=1&products_id=97293&zmam=55982562&zmas=3&zmac=648&zmap=97293-939107&gclid=CJuVjuSOrrQCFQ45nAodxioAfA

[MuddyWaters]

I would think any good quality winter sports glove or mittens would work as good as anything.
I prefer mittens, hands always get cold in gloves, never in mittens.

Hands sweat an incredible amount. Inside of my ski mittens are always damp after just a short time, and not from snowmelt. Especially in warmer temps as the day warms up.

That down would be great for camp, not sure how well it would work on trail when under exertion, etc.

[Tipi Walter]

I would think any good quality winter sports glove or mittens would work as good as anything.
I prefer mittens, hands always get cold in gloves, never in mittens.

Hands sweat an incredible amount. Inside of my ski mittens are always damp after just a short time, and not from snowmelt. Especially in warmer temps as the day warms up.

That down would be great for camp, not sure how well it would work on trail when under exertion, etc.

I figure I'd pull them off and either have inserts on underneath or stuff the mittens away and put on the inserts. But you're right, hands sweat pretty good and so I would avoid getting those style of gloves which have thinsulate or thermolite with a unbreathable vapor barrier liner sandwiched in the middle. Walmart had such a glove which I used for a couple years and since they didn't breathe my hands got sweaty and cold.

[T.S.Kobzol]

I have down mittens from TNF. They are only good to put on in camp as they are too hot for anything else except for getting caught in a blizzard on the Presidential Range (NH).

I usually wear OR goretex mittens and carry 1 or 2 spare liners.

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2

[Tipi Walter]

Last year at this time, in March, I was out on a 12 day backpacking trip and wrote this screed in my trip report---

NEWS
Poet W.H. Auden used benzedrine for twenty years to polish his poetry and make it "perfect". This trail journal is benzedrine-free and uses no outside substance to achieve its jolly insights and brilliance and philosophical meatiness except for the natural endorphins and serotonins which come from hauling a 70 lb pack up a nutbuster trail. ATTENTION all drug addicts, stoners, sots and winos---hump a 70 lb pack up the Upper Slickrock nutbuster and you'll get a shot of a mix of adrenaline and endorphin directly into the brain and it won't be something a SWAT team can break down your door for at three in the morning. I call it my 1,500 step program, or how many boot steps it takes to get up here from the bottom.

THE UNCLE MOTARD ELEVEN STEP PROGRAM (Condensed from the 1,500 step program)

** I admit that I am powerless over gear and the outdoors and that my life has become unmanageable.

** I have come to believe that Miss Nature is a Power far greater than myself and She will restore me to sanity if I just get my swollen butt off the couch and go outside.

** I have made the decision to turn over my life and will to the Mother Of The Forest as we understand Her.

** I have made a searching and fearless inventory of all my gear both good and bad and have kept what suits me to commune with the Beneficent Her.

** I have admitted to Her and to myself and to any other who will listen the exact nature of my Backpacking Trips and what Gear I like.

** I am entirely ready to replace old gear with new and allow Miss Nature to do this whenever She wants.

** I have humbly asked Her to remove calf pain and sore shoulders and a throbbing neck.

** I have made a list of all persons I have guided into the outdoors and I'm willing to make amends to them all for the nutbuster trails they endured.

** I will continue to take a personal inventory of both my summer gear and my winter gear, and if any of it seems shoddy or punctured or worn I will promptly admit it.

** I have sought thru long backpacking trips in pristine wilderness to improve my conscious contact with Miss Nature as I understand Her, hoping and praying She allows me to keep my gear in high winds or cold blizzards or summer thunderstorms.

** Having been born again hard in the Neanderthal mindset, I will try to carry this message to couch potatoes, car campers, ultralighters, dayhikers and thermostat-loving Insiders, and I will try to continue to practice these principles for as long as possible.

After running thru my 1,500 step progarm I guarantee you'll be damn thankful just to suck in fresh air at the end. The last thing you'll think about is booze or grass or speed. I call it the "I'm Damn Thankful to be Serene" meditation and it goes like this:

"Lord grant me the ability to hump tremendous weight up a seriously hellish slope."

[lemon b]

Love it Walter. Can tell I gotta call my sponser on step 6. Because I hold on to that old stuff way too long.

[rocketsocks]

Awesome Walter, and I've seen your gallery, and the hill in which you humped that stove...the second one. Great pictures there in the early Boone years. Always love a good screed!

I think it was Cheech and Chong who said

"I use to be all F***** up on drugs...now I'm all F**** up on the"...Well, Miss Nature...and I dig it!

[Tipi Walter]

Awesome Walter, and I've seen your gallery, and the hill in which you humped that stove...the second one. Great pictures there in the early Boone years. Always love a good screed!

I think it was Cheech and Chong who said

"I use to be all F***** up on drugs...now I'm all F**** up on the"...Well, Miss Nature...and I dig it!

The old Boone years were the glory days, the time in the '70's and '80's when Boone was the Alaskan frontier of western NC---wide open and still in a natural state. And I remember humping that woodstove up the mountain as it took 3 days.

[Alleghanian Orogeny]

The old Boone years were the glory days, the time in the '70's and '80's when Boone was the Alaskan frontier of western NC---wide open and still in a natural state. And I remember humping that woodstove up the mountain as it took 3 days.

Truer words were never spoken, TipiWalter. Boone was a different place back then.

Did you happen to know the tipi-dwellers along Russ Cornett Rd, between Winkler Creek Road and Poplar Grove Rd? There was a group with an old 4WD Suburban, a much older single-wide mobile home, and a gi-normous tipi. For my junior and both of my senior years, I lived off of Russ Cornett at just under 4,000' andI often took the back road, Russ Cornett, into town because it was gravel and drove better in the snow and ice. I'd see smoke curling from the stovepipe in big tipi most all the time.

AO
ASU 1973-1978

[aficion]

The old Boone years were the glory days, the time in the '70's and '80's when Boone was the Alaskan frontier of western NC---wide open and still in a natural state. And I remember humping that woodstove up the mountain as it took 3 days.

In the 60's the only thing between Blowing Rock and the D Boone Inn was Tweetsie. My how things change.

Back in those days you could jeep to places like the top of Shortoff Mountain, Chestnut Knob, Upper Harper Creek falls and the like. Some things change for the better.

[Tipi Walter]

Did you happen to know the tipi-dwellers along Russ Cornett Rd, between Winkler Creek Road and Poplar Grove Rd? There was a group with an old 4WD Suburban, a much older single-wide mobile home, and a gi-normous tipi. For my junior and both of my senior years, I lived off of Russ Cornett at just under 4,000' andI often took the back road, Russ Cornett, into town because it was gravel and drove better in the snow and ice. I'd see smoke curling from the stovepipe in big tipi most all the time.

AO
ASU 1973-1978

It's funny you should mention Russ Cornett Rd because me and my buddy had separate tipis up on some land by the road where it goes thru a long rhodo patch before coming out into some cow pastures. Johnny Be had a regular 16 foot canvas tipi and I had something thrown together with tarps and it's where we lived in 1986 before I built my ridgetop tipi in Sugar Grove.

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/BooneYears/Tipi-Life/i-M6RPpPc/0/L/TW%20at%20Harvard%20Tipi%20Camp%2C%201986-L.jpg
Here's the old lodge off Cornett road. It was on land owned by a professor of anthropology at ASU before he sold it off.. I did alot of camping around Winklers Creek from the big swimhole all the way up to the reservoir and beyond to Trout Lake and the trail up to Rich Mt which we called the Temple of the Gods because it had an old stone circle on top with a dead mulberry tree.

BTW, when you hike up Winklers Creek road past the big swimhole there's a side road to the left called Rocky Branch and if you follow that to its deadend you end up along a creek and a dam holding a lake to Camp Sky Ranch. We did a bunch of camping in that area, and there's a back trail by the dam which takes you up towards the lake reservoir (where Winklers rd becomes Flannery Fork).

Sorry for the thread drift.

[Alleghanian Orogeny]

PM headed your way, TW, to prevent thread hijack.

AO

[rocketsocks]

I personally don't mind the drift, and am intrigued by the Tipi dwellers, why did y'all decide to live this way? Was it a drop out, tune in, turn on thing? or just simply wanting to live deliberately, and of the grid? very interesting, would also like to know what books were on your shelves at the time...it's all good!.

[Fur Queue]

I went to the doctors once...thought I was a dome one day and a tipi the next...he told me to just relax and that I was two tents....

Sorry...I'll get my coat......

[rocketsocks]

Question---can a backpacker on an "expedition" trip carry 45 lbs of food and still be considered an ULer? Yes, their base weight is still light but what UL pack will hump 45 lbs of food?This is exactly my mind set, I'm trying to cut weight where I can, so I can bring some things that will enhance my trips ie; paints (small pochade box), wooden native American flute, extra reading material (books) or what ever, these luxury items together don't weigh a whole lot, but cutting weight for me is a medical necessity (humping pipe on shoulders for 30+years) so to get my base weight down will help me to plan a trip where I can go farther (more food), not necessarily faster, I guess you could say "I hike to camp" each night, (don't we all), but I don't really care for the term as it suggests something other than my peers...and it's not, the only difference is the distance covered each day, but am always moving smartly forward, ever forward.

and to answer the question...Yes..and no, a ultra light pack will not handle a 45lb. load..at all.

[colorado_rob]

This is exactly my mind set, I'm trying to cut weight where I can, so I can bring somethings that will enhance my trips ie; paints (small pochade box), wooden native American flute, extra reading material (books) or what ever, these luxury items together don't weigh a whole lot, but cutting weight for me is a medical necessity (humping pipe on shoulders for 30+years) so to get my base weight down will help me to plan a trip where I can go farther (more food), not necessarily faster, I guess you could say "I hike to camp" each night, (don't we all), but I don't really care for the term as it suggests something other than my peers...and it's not, the only difference is the distance covered each day, but am always moving smartly forward, ever forward.

and to answer the question...Yes..and no, a ultra light pack will not handle a 45lb. load..at all. But IMO "ultralight" changes definition with different requirements. Sure, a 7 oz Cuben fiber frameless pack cannot comfortably carry a 45lb load. Or at least I call BS if anyone says it can. But do you need an 8 pound pack (like tha Dana Designs Terra Plane that I used to carry) to carry 60 pounds when a 4.5 pound pack WILL carry that weight comfortably? Like the Osprey Aether 75 (like I use now to carry huge 60+ lb loads for multi-week, non-resupplied trips). I'm not claiming my Aether 75 is "ultralight" but it is 3.5 pounds lighter than the Terraplane, and I sure don't notice any difference in big-weight carry-comfort, and I've got a lot of miles on both packs. Make the Aether out of cuben fiber, trim the extras, lose the lid, get it down to sub-three pounds, and if the suspension is basically the same and it carries 60 lb just as comfortably, I'd now call it "ultralight". That's what "ultralight" is to me: getting rid of unnecessary weight. What is considered "necessary" of course varies with the individual. For myself, I carry what I need to be comfortable in reasonable conditions, and to survive in anything Mother Nature chooses to throw at me. Carry cartons of fresh eggs and a skillet? Well, might make for comfortable camping, but not so comfortable hiking.

[rocketsocks]

But IMO "ultralight" changes definition with different requirements.

That's what "ultralight" is to me: getting rid of unnecessary weight.

Well my older kelty pack weighs in at 4lb 8ox, and was replaced by the osprey exos at 2lb 8oz, for a terrific weight saving to me personally, I could have gone lighter, but this pack was a good fit for me, it wasn't just a weight saving issue, it's darn comfortable, now in a year I may just call it a dog, but not till I've giving it a fare shaking up. It's all relative to the individual.

Back to the thread question is it not the same if a ultralighter has a base weight of say 19lbs. and 1lb of water, and 30 lbs of food, now at 50 lbs, throw in winter gear to the kit, and man now your humping some gear, so are they still ultra light...yes and know, there base weight is of that on the lower end of traditional ultralight (these numbers seem to change depending on who your asking...and maybe that's the whole point) but the total pack weight has increased, both hikers start out being light weight, but one carries there food for extended stays, the other buys along the way or maybe receives drops.

If two hikers walk side by side, one carrying a small amount of food, the other carrying enough for three weeks. Hiker small food peels off the a town to shop, hiker heavy continues. small food hiker catches back up to hiker heavy, and a couple days later peels off for a town to pick up goods from the post office, and the post office is closed and won't be open till tomorrow, and now several days later catches back up to our heavy hiker getting lighter by the day. Now small food hiker peels off for a town to shop again, and the store burned done last night, they hike to a town 15 miles away, pick up supplies, and head back to meet heavy hiker getting lighter and lighter by the day, and then...several, several days later, they meet again, this continues and they both end up in the same place at the same time at the conclusion of the trip. Of coarse these are just but a couple scenarios, and way to many variables to conclude much from, but it is an interesting debate.

[colorado_rob]

Just for the record... the multi-week trips I was referring to had NO chance of any resupply whatsoever (think alaska), hence the heavy pack.

[rocketsocks]

Just for the record... the multi-week trips I was referring to had NO chance of any resupply whatsoever (think alaska), hence the heavy pack.Got cha, didn't catch that first time round.

[Teacher & Snacktime]

Wow...I've been feeling like I've been excessive with a 7lb food bag for 2 people for 3 days.....It's nice to know that I can put back a few of the things I set aside as extravagant and still be on track weight-wise.

[Papa D]

It sure is fun to catch up with this thread - I've ran into Tipi on several occasions in Joyce Kilmer and he sure does have a complete kit that I admire. I have never "bought in" to the fast and light hysteria as he says but I do enjoy hiking fast and trail running and the satisfaction of traveling long-distance with a lightish load. I also enjoy traveling with a complete kit and getting things done in the winter, being comfortable, warm and well supplied. For me. it comes down to appropriate packing for whatever given trip one is undertaking - - if you want to travel 200 miles in a week, the kit needs to be pretty spartan - if your goal is to explore a wilderness area via several loops in wintertime over a week or two with no re-supply and assure comfort then maybe the 75+ pound pack is the way to go. There is no argument really - - different styles make our endeavor interesting.

[Wise Old Owl]

Well it is never boring... clearly this is up a notch!

[illabelle]

Here's a question for winter hiking:
We're doing a section next weekend on the AT in TN/NC. The Knoxville forecast calls for temperatures in the 60s over the next several days, expect low 50s at best in the mountains. So we're preparing for snow on the ground, maybe some snow still on the bushes. Does anybody carry anything to cut rhododendron that falls across the trail under a load of snow? I'm not really wanting to carry a machete, but neither do I want to squirm on my belly through the snow to get under the stuff. When we can we'll just walk around, but I'm thinking that may not always be easy. Is this never an issue?

[Papa D]

Here's a question for winter hiking:
We're doing a section next weekend on the AT in TN/NC. The Knoxville forecast calls for temperatures in the 60s over the next several days, expect low 50s at best in the mountains. So we're preparing for snow on the ground, maybe some snow still on the bushes. Does anybody carry anything to cut rhododendron that falls across the trail under a load of snow? I'm not really wanting to carry a machete, but neither do I want to squirm on my belly through the snow to get under the stuff. When we can we'll just walk around, but I'm thinking that may not always be easy. Is this never an issue?

you shouldn't really need anything but snow and ice does sometimes create some interesting tunneling of trails - esp in NC where everything seems to freeze up and curl in on you creating a tunnel around the trail - - you might have to step over and dodge some stuff but you won't need the machete.

[lemon b]

Thought it was discussion on 2,3 & 11 not a hijack.

[Another Kevin]

Wow...I've been feeling like I've been excessive with a 7lb food bag for 2 people for 3 days.....It's nice to know that I can put back a few of the things I set aside as extravagant and still be on track weight-wise.

Hmm. My guess is that the '3 days' has first-day-breakfast and last-night-dinner in town? Even so, that's a little on the lightweight side; 2 lb/person/day isn't that uncommon. I don't like going much lower than that because I like real food, so I'm not above carrying pouched tuna or shrimp or salmon or crab or chicken, or a dry sausage, or some real cheese, along with all the dehydrated stuff. But I'm just a clueless weekender, so you don't see me trying to tote supplies for an extended trip.

[rocketsocks]

Some people imagine I don't walk or sweat or have my butt handed to me on a regular basis by nutbuster climbs. To dispel this notion check out a recent trip report---

http://www.trailspace.com/forums/trip-reports/topics/128530.html#128530



Everybody has their toys. Heck, I see backpackers with GPS devices which I consider totally useless dead weight and yet they love 'em. Just another toy. The $10,000 ATV and the bass boat are True Toys since they do not have to be hand-carried on your back. This simple chore greatly limits a backpacker's relationship to his toys.

My weight comes from several factors---the main one being heading out into areas which could be called wilderness where there are no resupply points and while carrying 20 days worth of food and a full winter kit. The food and fuel load alone comes to 45-50 lbs. And the only time I'm able to read a book in solitude and relaxation is when I'm out on a trip and so you add in the weight of 4 books and ZAP it builds, along with 32 to 44 ounces of white gas stove fuel.

The neat thing is, the books are burned and the food eaten and the fuel cooked and by Day 15 of the trip my pack is around 45 lbs---down from 80 lbs---and 45 lbs seems like a daypack to me and incredibly light. I still have 5 more days of food and fuel---actually 8 days of food as I like to have extra just in case I run into a problem and can't get out---so my pack is not as light as it could be. Plus, just my pack and tent together come to 16 lbs 8 oz---8 lb 10 oz tent and 7 lb 14 ounce pack. I like both and see no need for change.

So what if I start a trip with 80 lbs and only go 4 or 5 miles the first day? The corporate honchos came up with the Fast & Light campaign and the world of backpacking ate it up like the Next Great Snake Oil Elixir. The strangest thing is that now there are backpackers who don't feel genuine unless they cover 30 miles a day FAST and hump a 12 lb kit LIGHT. Question is, how many do it naturally as part of hiking their own hike, and how many do it after being bombarded and brainwashed by the Fast and Light hysteria? You know it's corporate groupthink when all a newb thinks about is starting out ultralight with a 12 lb kit. They are asking for trouble and don't even know the right questions. But it must be Ultralight at all costs. Weird.

So did anyone ever figure out just what kinda snake this is? Sorry link not working, check out Walters link to trailspace and scroll down to see snake. the first snake you come to, there are four different ones.

[Tipi Walter]

.................................................. ..................

[BillyGr]

Now if they would close the road permanently the Shenandoahs could have some peace and quiet from the roaring Harleys and screaming crotch rockets.

True - but you'd also eliminate the tasty food and drinks that so many have used during hikes (no point to having those without the people needed to make them profitable) - and eliminate an option for some that can't hike to visit some beautiful sites.

Maybe just enforcing the speeds and noise levels on vehicles would help?

[Venchka]

Colorado_rob,
Not sure which Terraplane you had. My 1994 medium size Arc Flex Terraplane weighs 6 lbs. 12 ozs. As verified recently on a digital scale. If I care to go lighter, I have the original UL frameless Jensen pack that weighs 3 lbs. 1 oz. With 4,000+ cu. In., it holds enough stuff for several days, my Pentax 6x7 and lots of film.
I tend to hang on to things that work for me. I don't chase Magic Bullets.
Have fun!

Wayne

[Luddite]

You know it's corporate groupthink when all a newb thinks about is starting out ultralight with a 12 lb kit. They are asking for trouble and don't even know the right questions. But it must be Ultralight at all costs. Weird.

12 lb kit is actually pretty heavy if it's summer. 12 lbs is a good base weight for a winter hike on the AT, in my opinion.

IMO, a 80 pound pack is asking for trouble. Have you injured yourself? I don't even think they soldiers carry that much for punishment.

[coach lou]

12 lb kit is actually pretty heavy if it's summer. 12 lbs is a good base weight for a winter hike on the AT, in my opinion.

IMO, a 80 pound pack is asking for trouble. Have you injured yourself? I don't even think they soldiers carry that much for punishment.

My Lance Corporal 0311 nephew carries 110lbs. into combat! In the desert, he was able to stay out of trouble, thank goodness.:)

[Luddite]

My Lance Corporal 0311 nephew carries 110lbs. into combat! In the desert, he was able to stay out of trouble, thank goodness.:)

I would be walking like C-3PO if I had to carry 110 pounds. That's insane! And in the desert???

[rickb]

Here is what I am thinking....

If you eat 2 lbs of food per day your average daily carry weight for food on a 5 day hike is 6 lbs:

(10 + 8 + 6 + 4 + 2) / 5 = 6 lbs per day average

To make the math easy I have assumed you eat your entire daily ration at the end of your hiking day.

But if you carry 2 lbs of food per day on a 10 day hike your average carry weight is 11 lbs.

(20 + 18 + 16 + 14 + 12 + 10 + 8 + 6 + 4 + 2) / 10 = 11 lbs per day average

So....

If you are willing to carry just an extra 5 pounds of food per day (on average), you can spend 5 more days in the woods before you are forced to break your stride and come in for resupply.

Doesn't seen so bad when you look at it that way, right?

I think Tipi is on to something. One thing is for sure, hikers resupply far more often these days that they did back in the day. :-)

[Franco]

In 2006 three of the BackPackingLight guys (Ryan Jordan, Roman Dial and Jason Geck ) did a 1000Km (600 miles) unsupported trek in Alaska.from memory only Roman Dial succeeded ,taking 24 days, the other two abandoned at different times)
Their packs were about 60 lbs at the start , most of course was food.
yes they were "ultralighters", there is no other way of doing that because the slower you go the more food you have to carry and therefore the slower you go...

[Franco]

I made the point above just to give a real life example of how you can be UltraLight and still have 60lbs on your back (at the start) but of course it only applies if you attempt something like a 20 plus day unsupported hike.But really neither that nor the type of hiking Tipi does apply to most hikers.


from the Arctic 1000 (by Roman Dial)

The key to making 624 miles in 24 days carrying only one bag of food was carrying very little of anything else, and making darn sure what we did carry was very light. BackpackingLight.com's gear maven, Ryan Jordan, was instrumental in ferreting out the lightest gear for our expedition – the Cucoon overwear, the Oware megamid, and the ULA pack, for instance. Our "skin out weights" (total weight minus the food and the cameras) were on the order of 12 pounds, an exceptionally light base weight for walking halfway across Alaska, even if we did start with close to 59 pounds on our backs.
http://packrafting.blogspot.com.au/2010/08/2006-arctic-1000-625-miles-in-24-days.html

[coach lou]

My big four base weight in cold weather is eleven pounds seven onces. Practically a day pack... I'm embarassed to put it in this thread:(




not:D

[Sarcasm the elf]

My big four base weight in cold weather is eleven pounds seven onces. Practically a day pack... I'm embarassed to put it in this thread:(




not:D

Just so we're clear "big four" doesn't mean tarp, netting, ground cloth and cheesecake! :D

[Namtrag]

I told some people in my meetup group about this thread on our trip to Grayson Highlands this weekend. I hope they come join WB and post on it.

We were talking about Memorial Day Weekend 2013, particularly Saturday, when my wife and I came to the South Intersection of the AT and the Pine Mountain Trail. The temperature was dropping, the clouds were rolling in, and the wind was steadily picking up. Up strolls an ULer with a sleeveless tee, short 1970's style running shorts, and a pack that looked to be about 30-35 liters, tops.

That night, we had freezing rain, and I hate to think what happened to the guy.

Anyway, we all talked about how we liked to be comfortable. If I were hiking high mileage section hikes, I might think more about going light. But we typically go 2-3 miles Friday afternoon after our long drive to wherever, then 6-8 miles on Saturday, and 4-6 miles on Sunday for the long drive back to Va Beach. Hence, we bring lots of heavier stuff, like my Helinox chair, a pint of liquor, bear canister, etc.

Love the concept of UL, but it's not for me!!

[Namtrag]

For example, my base weight for this hike was 22 lbs...32 with food and water. This was for a 2 night trip. lol

[Namtrag]

Mistake in my post above, it was actually the weekend of my anniversary, Saturday May 4 that the incident occurred...Memorial Day was another story...cold as hell at Dolly Sods!

[Malto]

That night, we had freezing rain, and I hate to think what happened to the guy.

Just curious why you would think anything bad happened to that guy. If you met me on the trail I would look similiar, sans 70's style. And I would have everything needed to handle the elements you describe quite comfortably. Bigger or heavier doesn't necessarily mean better prepared.

[Namtrag]

He probably was ok, but my sleeping bag is down, and even in a compression sack, it would have filled his pack. Plus I thought he was a little underdressed for the 40 degree temp and 30 mph wind. But to each his own

[Namtrag]

I also wasn't trying to start any controversy, just observing. I'm fairly new to this and enjoy all perspectives. Plus I'm jealous I can't afford UL gear, nor am I in shape enough to justify buying it. My first goal to go lighter is to lose 30 lbs

[Malto]

He probably was ok, but my sleeping bag is down, and even in a compression sack, it would have filled his pack. Plus I thought he was a little underdressed for the 40 degree temp and 30 mph wind. But to each his own

No controversy at all. Get where you're coming from re size from your experience. If you get a chance to meet a ULer on the trail, take a look at his gear and you will likely be surprised just how compact some of it can be.

[Namtrag]

No controversy at all. Get where you're coming from re size from your experience. If you get a chance to meet a ULer on the trail, take a look at his gear and you will likely be surprised just how compact some of it can be.

Haven't seen too many yet, but look forward to meeting some and seeing how they do things.

[Wise Old Owl]

Isn't cheesecake heavy thinking? Never be embarrassed about the weight of cheesecake.

[Sarcasm the elf]

Isn't cheesecake heavy thinking? Never be embarrassed about the weight of cheesecake.

Hiking with Lou was the only time that my backpack has gotten heavier after dinner. That "slice" of cheesecake had to have weighted two pounds and took three days to eat...but it did make a great breakfast :sun

[MuddyWaters]

Too many people have misconceptions about UL.
Most of being UL is just NOT bringing crap you dont need.
The rest is only bringing the lightest forms of what you do need, that will do the job.

You dont do without anything you need.

Learn to differentiate between things needed, things wanted, and things taken out of fear that they might be useful in some circumstance.

[coach lou]

24392
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3IgFsEEOik Cheesecake

[Franco]

"He probably was ok, but my sleeping bag is down, and even in a compression sack..."

This is a Western Mountaineering 6' 32f rated (right for me...) sleeping bag in its own stuff sack.
24393
Compressed is about 1/3rd smaller than that.
(to avoid that ball shape and allow better compression folk use a bigger stuff sack and let the rest of the gear compress it to take up the available space)
Quilts can be smaller than that, particularly the 40f types that UL guys use with clothing down to 30f or so.

[Tipi Walter]

If two hikers walk side by side, one carrying a small amount of food, the other carrying enough for three weeks. Hiker small food peels off the a town to shop, hiker heavy continues. small food hiker catches back up to hiker heavy, and a couple days later peels off for a town to pick up goods from the post office, and the post office is closed and won't be open till tomorrow, and now several days later catches back up to our heavy hiker getting lighter by the day. Now small food hiker peels off for a town to shop again, and the store burned done last night, they hike to a town 15 miles away, pick up supplies, and head back to meet heavy hiker getting lighter and lighter by the day, and then...several, several days later, they meet again, this continues and they both end up in the same place at the same time at the conclusion of the trip. Of coarse these are just but a couple scenarios, and way to many variables to conclude much from, but it is an interesting debate.

If the only consideration is hiking speed and miles attained, then your post makes sense as both hikers will probably be equally along. But one big thing left out is the heavy hiker never having to go into a town to exchange folding money with strangers. Or go to a post office. This is a huge incentive in my mind to carry a lot of food weight and not resupply (so often)---thereby avoiding syphilization, etc.


Here's a question for winter hiking:
We're doing a section next weekend on the AT in TN/NC. The Knoxville forecast calls for temperatures in the 60s over the next several days, expect low 50s at best in the mountains. So we're preparing for snow on the ground, maybe some snow still on the bushes. Does anybody carry anything to cut rhododendron that falls across the trail under a load of snow? I'm not really wanting to carry a machete, but neither do I want to squirm on my belly through the snow to get under the stuff. When we can we'll just walk around, but I'm thinking that may not always be easy. Is this never an issue?

I call these devilish snowloaded rhodos, brush and evergreens Snowdowns---like Blowdowns---and no amount of whacking with a machete will help. Why? Because you'll be exhausted after 100 feet. Yes, sometimes this is a big issue. The green tunnel gets impassable and you have no choice but to belly crawl with a pack on your pack. Prepare to scream and wail---adjust protective cup if needed---one mile will take 3 hours. Esp with a 60 lb pack.


Here is what I am thinking....

If you eat 2 lbs of food per day your average daily carry weight for food on a 5 day hike is 6 lbs:

(10 + 8 + 6 + 4 + 2) / 5 = 6 lbs per day average

To make the math easy I have assumed you eat your entire daily ration at the end of your hiking day.

But if you carry 2 lbs of food per day on a 10 day hike your average carry weight is 11 lbs.

(20 + 18 + 16 + 14 + 12 + 10 + 8 + 6 + 4 + 2) / 10 = 11 lbs per day average

So....

If you are willing to carry just an extra 5 pounds of food per day (on average), you can spend 5 more days in the woods before you are forced to break your stride and come in for resupply.

Doesn't seen so bad when you look at it that way, right?

I think Tipi is on to something. One thing is for sure, hikers resupply far more often these days that they did back in the day. :-)

I flunked algebra but I finally figured out your math---the food weight gets lighter as you progress day-to-day. When I start a typical 18-20 day trip my pack weight is around 80-85 lbs. At the end I'm hauling around 40 lbs---which I routinely call a Daypack and twirl around like an ultralighter with cuben underwear and a one day food load. It's light!


Just curious why you would think anything bad happened to that guy. If you met me on the trail I would look similiar, sans 70's style. And I would have everything needed to handle the elements you describe quite comfortably. Bigger or heavier doesn't necessarily mean better prepared.

No, but in extreme cold (subzero) most backpackers (and probably most ULers) don't/can't/won't carry the necessary weight and bulk to stay warm. 3.5 lb down bags, 2.5 lb down parka, down pants, booties, 7-8Rvalue pad, etc.


Isn't cheesecake heavy thinking? Never be embarrassed about the weight of cheesecake.

Or eggs. Or a watermelon. Or burnable "books".

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2013-1/Backpacking-Bryan-DeLay/i-RtqqqkH/0/M/TRIP%20148%20075-M.jpg
On a very recent trip I humped out 18 eggs---one a day---and here are just 12 of them.

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2012/20-Days-to-Panther-Branch-and/i-nBBvwFp/0/M/TRIP%20136%20408-M.jpg
And who hasn't humped out a watermelon or two??

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2012/Tipi-Walter-in-Solitude/i-8QxSGvg/0/M/TRIP%20130%20028-M.jpg
And burnable books!! My style is to bookmark a bunch of crap on the computer at home and then copy on both sides of 70 pages of typing paper(both sides equals 140 reading pages) and hump these out to read and burn. On a recent trip I took about 14 of these rolls---HEAVY. But quickly burned. I never can read at home but I love to read when out.

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2010/Coy-Williams-and-the-25th/i-BMzLdDH/0/M/TRIP%20114%20020-M.jpg
It's time for a book burning:)




Hiking with Lou was the only time that my backpack has gotten heavier after dinner. That "slice" of cheesecake had to have weighted two pounds and took three days to eat...but it did make a great breakfast :sun

Reminds me of a funny sight.

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2011/Cranbrook-School-Backpacking/i-vw6VF9D/0/M/TRIP%20120%20016-M.jpg
Here's my food load at the beginning of an 18 day trip---around 40-45 lbs.

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2010/Five-Miles-of-Living-Hell-on/i-nCrNT4Q/0/M/TRIP%20107%20083-M.jpg
Here's Sgt Rock's food bag from an earlier trip to Slickrock Creek. Ha ha ha JUST KIDDING. It IS his bag but just the rock bag for the throw rope.

[Tipi Walter]

Too many people have misconceptions about UL.
Most of being UL is just NOT bringing crap you dont need.
The rest is only bringing the lightest forms of what you do need, that will do the job.

You dont do without anything you need.

Learn to differentiate between things needed, things wanted, and things taken out of fear that they might be useful in some circumstance.

Problem is, the job changes. This is most especially true during a long trip between October and March. You start out at 50F in clear skies, 2 days later you're at 6,000 feet in an open meadow on a NC mountain in a 50mph blizzard with spindrift going everywhere. Thankfully you brought the 4 season Hilleberg. Then 5 days later you're in a 3 day rainstorm with ground water and lake effect---glad you have a bathtub floor at 70 denier. Then 10 days in the trip you hit a -10F cold snap with devilish winds so you don't need your -10F down bag for a quilt anymore cuz it's getting zipped up tight every night. And the Exped downmat is super warm.

Conditions change radically on long trips---you don't have to go looking for them, they come to you. My theory and practice is---have one piece of gear for all conditions---one bag, one tent, one layering system, etc. Go overkill cuz sometime you'll need it. A 3 day weekend trip? Yes, watch the weather report and bail when needed. Longer trip? Go overkill. Take one tent or bag or pad that won't do just one job but many jobs.

And never subscribe to the popular notion of "better site placement." Can't set up a tarp on a mountain top in a blizzard windstorm and instead have to go lower?? The gear then proscribes your freedom. Carry something that can go anywhere at anytime.

[Old Hiker]

Mistake in my post above, it was actually the weekend of my anniversary, Saturday May 4 that the incident occurred...Memorial Day was another story...cold as hell at Dolly Sods!

Oh, man - if you forgot your anniversary, no wonder it was cold as hell !!

[MuddyWaters]

Problem is, the job changes. This is most especially true during a long trip between October and March. You start out at 50F in clear skies, 2 days later you're at 6,000 feet in an open meadow on a NC mountain in a 50mph blizzard with spindrift going everywhere. Thankfully you brought the 4 season Hilleberg. Then 5 days later you're in a 3 day rainstorm with ground water and lake effect---glad you have a bathtub floor at 70 denier. Then 10 days in the trip you hit a -10F cold snap with devilish winds so you don't need your -10F down bag for a quilt anymore cuz it's getting zipped up tight every night. And the Exped downmat is super warm.

Conditions change radically on long trips---you don't have to go looking for them, they come to you. My theory and practice is---have one piece of gear for all conditions---one bag, one tent, one layering system, etc. Go overkill cuz sometime you'll need it. A 3 day weekend trip? Yes, watch the weather report and bail when needed. Longer trip? Go overkill. Take one tent or bag or pad that won't do just one job but many jobs.

And never subscribe to the popular notion of "better site placement." Can't set up a tarp on a mountain top in a blizzard windstorm and instead have to go lower?? The gear then proscribes your freedom. Carry something that can go anywhere at anytime.


There are undoubtedbly times when you cannot, or should not , be UL. Weight should never trump necessity or prudence.
For 3 seasons of the year, its not really a problem in most places.
Winter is a clear exception where one should be conservative.

Its really not much of a problem on the AT, where you have access to shelters for inclement conditions. You should not be near a mountain top in a blizzard unless you are clearly prepared for it either. Yeah, fools are born every minute, but thats why we have natural selection.

[FamilyGuy]

There are also times when you shouldn't carry a carton of eggs and a watermelon in your pack.

[Tipi Walter]

There are also times when you shouldn't carry a carton of eggs and a watermelon in your pack.

Yes, but those times are very rare.

[coach lou]

There are also times when you shouldn't carry a carton of eggs and a watermelon in your pack.


Yes, but those times are very rare.
Always room for a small cheesecake

[Namtrag]

And if you need to go light, take the Mountain House cheesecake!

[Tipi Walter]

Always room for a small cheesecake


THERE'S ALWAYS ROOM FOR---

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2002-2004/The-64-Bag-Nights-of-2004/i-Z8Tbfpd/0/M/37%20%20Minnesota%20Group%27s%20Kitchen%20Stuff%20 at%20Naked%20Ground-M.jpg
About 20 water bottles . . . . .


http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2008/Backpacking-with-the-Integral/i-mpzzBKq/0/M/Trip%2087%20011-M.jpg
A ripe pear and fresh raw cheddar cheese . . . .


http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2009/Chattanooga-Cheryl-and-the-Bob/i-JNGCBqd/0/M/Trip%20103%20004-M.jpg
A store bought sandwich . . . .

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2009/The-Hilleberg-Keron-Tent-Trip/i-n6HLg3c/0/M/TRIP%20104%20022-M.jpg
A Tomato Head restaurant burrito!! . . . . .


http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2012/20-Days-to-Panther-Branch-and/i-mt5txvC/0/M/TRIP%20136%20403-M.jpg
Anyone mention a watermelon??? . . . . .


http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2010/23-Days-with-Hootyhoo-Sgt-Rock/i-6kTXzw2/0/M/TRIP%20115%20029-M.jpg
How about a couple ripe apples and an avocado and some goat cheese????? . . . .

[Tipi Walter]

AND YET MORE ROOM FOR---

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2011/Tipi-Walter-and-Johnny-Molloy/i-5bD8w2Z/0/M/TRIP%20125%20100-M.jpg
A 28 oz box of Hungry Jack pancake mix??? Johnny Molloy seems to think there's plenty of room for this wonderful product . . . .

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2013-1/Green-Cove-Cabin/i-rwL58Jt/0/M/TRIP%20147%20046-M.jpg
Oh, and let's throw in some milk just for the heck of it . . . . .

[FamilyGuy]

I see no Jack Daniels. Why?

[Tipi Walter]

I see no Jack Daniels. Why?

I MUCH prefer this---

http://1.thekrazycouponlady.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/odwalla-mango-tango.jpg