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Andrewsobo
12-20-2012, 15:23
I'm considering doing a couple days on the AT, the 30 miles NOBO before Bear Mountain. Temps are looking to be highs of 40, low of 25 with a chance of snow. I'm a Floridian. I've got:

Thermarest Prolite Plus
20 degree Enlightened Equipment Quilt
Down balaclava
Smartwool Balaclava
Turtle Fur (merino) beanie
Smartwool sopris glove liners
Smartwool midweight bottom baselayer
Icebreaker 200 bodyfit top baselayer
Montbell U.L. down jacket
Marmot Precip jacket
Marmot Precip rain paints
Smartwool socks and North Face trail runners

Concerns: not enough insulation for my lower half at night. Don't have a waterproof covering for my glove liners. Quilt is supposed to be good down to 20 comfortably, it's apparently overstuffed by default so that the temp ratings are accurate. Haven't tried it that low yet. I was almost hot in the 40s though.

I also have some "waterproof" Timberland hiking boots that are another option. I can potentially borrow my friend's Marmot Pounder synthetic bag, good to 40 degrees. If I climbed in the Pounder then wrapped the quilt around myself I would be a lot warmer.

Andrewsobo
12-20-2012, 15:24
Oops, guess I was thinking about bears when I made the title, should be will I BE warm enough, not bear.

Tipi Walter
12-20-2012, 15:27
Bears in the Southeast are pretty warm as is, if that's your point. On the other hand, can you stand being too warm? If you're too warm, well, it could ruin a trip. Only you know the answer to this.

Cookerhiker
12-20-2012, 15:32
Which Bear Mountain, NY or CT? I'd recommend the latter because it's a little easier plus has more bail-out possibilities.

Andrewsobo
12-20-2012, 15:45
NY. Sadly I don't have a choice as far as location, this is where I can get shuttled to and from. Judging from the elevation profile in my AWOL guide, it looks mostly easy compared to the parts of the trail I've done before (Springer to Damascus).

Feral Bill
12-20-2012, 15:55
If it gets much colder than predicted, you may be uncomfortable. Probably not dangerously so. Enjoy.

Snowleopard
12-20-2012, 15:59
When are you doing this?

Assuming in the next few days, the weather report for Bear Mt, NY, is rain and warm (29F-47F) tomorrow, then highs in 30s lows in 20s. I'd recommend NOT hiking Friday if you have little cold weather experience; it'll be tough to stay dry and it'll be followed by cold -- i.e., hypothermia weather.
I'd add a 2 pair of thin wool or fleece mittens. Waterproof breathable shell mitts couldn't hurt; otherwise use plastic bags if it rains/snows. I'd also add a thin fleece top for warmth while hiking if it's a little wet.

You should be fine sleeping as long as everything is dry. Be sure to stay dry from rain/snow and from sweat. You're better off if you feel a little bit cool when you start; you'll warm up hiking. Peel off layers if you start to sweat.

Andrewsobo
12-20-2012, 16:11
Thanks for the replies. I'm planning on doing this the 22nd-24th, skipping Friday. I've got a cuben fiber pack liner for my ULA Circuit that keeps things pretty dry.

I don't have time or money to get a serious pair of mitts, and I would probably hardly use them... thinking about some plastic bags + rubber band over my hands?

My plan for what to wear while hiking was Icebreaker top, Smartwool bottoms with a pair of athletic shorts over them. Silly looking, but it seems like it would do the trick. If it gets too cold while hiking I was just going to throw my Precip (rain shell) on, not the best solution but at least I don't have to carry (or buy) more gear.

Andrewsobo
12-20-2012, 16:12
Also, I'm considering bringing my short sleeve smartwool microweight tshirt just as an extra layer for during the day.

joshuasdad
12-20-2012, 16:13
Looks like a minimalist setup for the temperatures you are expecting, and seemingly fine for a day hike. I think you might be cold in camp when not under the quilt. Consider bring winter (ski) type gloves, the last time I used liners only at 20 F, I wished that I had more.Do not underestimate the 30 miles south of Bear Mountain. I have heard that it is quite rugged, and has a lot of elevation change in the form of steep ups and downs. Much different than most Southern hiking.

MuddyWaters
12-20-2012, 16:15
If you assume your quilt is true, your clothing adds about 10F , your good for sleeping to 10. If you have a tent, possibly 3-5 F lower.
You seem to have plenty of sleeping insul to me.
Personally I would want a light fleece I could hike in, or put on while I was still sweating, but many do get by with just what you have there.

Andrewsobo
12-20-2012, 16:25
After doing a little research on backpacking light, it seems like nitrile exam gloves over my wool liners is the way to go for water/wind proofing.

I'm also planning on bringing a pair of thick smartwool socks that I won't hike with during the day and will only use to sleep in.

Feral Bill
12-20-2012, 16:31
If you can, you might want to get a Harriman State Park trail map. If you are running behind on time you can pick an easier route for the last day. If you are running ahead, you can pick some interesting side trips.

Cookerhiker
12-20-2012, 16:49
NY. Sadly I don't have a choice as far as location, this is where I can get shuttled to and from. Judging from the elevation profile in my AWOL guide, it looks mostly easy compared to the parts of the trail I've done before (Springer to Damascus).

[QUOTE=joshuasdad;1376158...Do not underestimate the 30 miles south of Bear Mountain. I have heard that it is quite rugged, and has a lot of elevation change in the form of steep ups and downs. Much different than most Southern hiking.[/QUOTE]

Many hikers, including thruhikers, have underestimated the difficulty of Harriman Park. Perhaps it's because like you, they look at elevation profiles and reason that since the highest point in NY is less than 1,500', the hiking must be easy. You'll find that the 32 miles from Greenwood Lake to Bear Mountain features a number of very steep ups and downs. In fact, a stretch of it is nicnamed by locals "Agony Grind."

A NOBO thruhiking bud of mine asserted that the 16 mile day from Rt. 17A to Fingerboard Shelter was his hardest day of his thruhike up to that point. AWOL in his AWOL on the Appalachian Trail said the following:

"With all I've read about the trail, I am surprised by the dearth of accounts about the difficulty of this section. The hills are low but the trail goes steeply up and down, and there is a rock scramble at the top of many hills. This day is harder than the Roller Coaster in Virginia. Taken together, these last two days have been harder than anything since Tennessee."

And when I section-hiked NY, the register entries in the shelters were full of observations/complaints about the difficulty. Maybe as inferred by AWOL, it's because that aside from Lehigh Gap, the hiking since Virginia had not featured steepness. But whatever, be advised that it's not a cakewalk especially in winter when ice on the boulders could be downright treacherous.

Pathfinder1
12-20-2012, 16:56
Andrewsobo;
After doing a little research on backpacking light, it seems like nitrile exam gloves over my wool liners is the way to go for water/wind proofing.


Hi...


Beware re: nitrile...no means of perspiration to escape...you may end up with wet, clammy, cold hands.

Snowleopard
12-20-2012, 19:01
I was surprised on my little local hike today that microspikes would have been very useful; even after the warm weather and rain we've been having there was a thin layer of ice/snow on rocks. It'll be hard to know if you need them till you're on the trail. Perhaps a NY local can chime in on this.

If your hands get cold, use your spare socks as mitts.

Hosaphone
12-20-2012, 22:01
Andrewsobo;
After doing a little research on backpacking light, it seems like nitrile exam gloves over my wool liners is the way to go for water/wind proofing.


Hi...


Beware re: nitrile...no means of perspiration to escape...you may end up with wet, clammy, cold hands.

I suspect whatever BPL conversations Andrew was reading were not talking about wind/waterproofing, but using Vapor Barrier Layers (VBL's). A vapor barrier is anything that doesn't breath (nitrile, etc). You wear a VBL in between your skin and insulation layers to prevent perspiration from soaking the insulation and keeping it from insulating. The result is wet, clammy, WARM hands/feet/etc.

hikerboy57
12-20-2012, 22:08
NY. Sadly I don't have a choice as far as location, this is where I can get shuttled to and from. Judging from the elevation profile in my AWOL guide, it looks mostly easy compared to the parts of the trail I've done before (Springer to Damascus).
although there are no big climbs, its not as easy as the profile leads you t believe.when are youu planning on going? coming up from florida you will naturally be colder for the first day or two.i would say if the weather stays the way its been lately youll be fine. but normally its a bit colder. either way i dont think youd freeze to death, maybe uncomfortable. otherwise bring the pounder.

MuddyWaters
12-21-2012, 11:33
After doing a little research on backpacking light, it seems like nitrile exam gloves over my wool liners is the way to go for water/wind proofing.

I'm also planning on bringing a pair of thick smartwool socks that I won't hike with during the day and will only use to sleep in.

If you can find the thin, light , plastic gloves that are sometimes in dispensers at gas stations, they work and are nearly weightless. They are oversized so they fit better, can secure at wrist with a rubber band. You can carry several pair for very little wt.

goes without saying you have to be gentle

Andrewsobo
12-24-2012, 18:07
Made it. Did Longhouse Drive (Road?) to the Palisades Parkway visitor center, cut it a little short of Bear Mountain because I wasn't nearly as fast in this terrain as I thought and I'm visiting family today. 11 or so miles the first day, 15 the second day, about 7.5 today.

You guys weren't joking, this terrain is MUCH harder than the AWOL elevation profile led me to believe. Some real tough ups on the second day, the lemon squeezer and the little climb just after were really iced over. Had to do a water crossing by some lake that was above my belly button (I'm 6'). Not sure how cold it was out but there was ice everywhere so either below freezing or close to it.

I took off my shoes and socks, crossed barefoot in my merino boxers and athletic shorts. Stripped them off when I got to dry land, threw on my merino bottom baselayer and shoes/socks. It actually wasn't that bad. I assume there was a bridge there before, but I guess Sandy took it out? On the first day there was a shin deep water crossing maybe a mile from where I started on Longhouse Drive, fast moving current but I was able to hang on to a downed tree as I crossed. Got a little snow the first day, some pretty intense wind. It was like 74 in Gainesville the day I left, and then less than 24 hours later I'm crossing a freezing river... great trip.

Let me know if I did anything wrong. I made it so I assume I didn't do anything too wrong, but what is the standard for river crossings in freezing conditions?

Gear worked out great. I carried a polyster Under Armor hoodie for use during the day. Most of the time I hiked in merino boxers, athletic shorts, merino baselayer top and merino glove liners. Didn't really need the hoodie, but it was nice to put my legs through the arm holes at night (and to throw on while still sweating, as MuddyWaters suggested) . Slept in my quilt with my down balaclava, down jacket unzipped, merino t shirt, merino baselayers top and bottom, hoodie covering the legs, two pairs of merino socks with handwarmers in between the layers. I was downright toasty, temps were probably in the 20s. I also carried a pair of waterproof ski gloves that made my hands start to sweat as soon as I put them on, so I didn't need them. Would have been nice in an emergency though so I don't regret having them.

Andrewsobo
12-24-2012, 18:11
I suspect whatever BPL conversations Andrew was reading were not talking about wind/waterproofing, but using Vapor Barrier Layers (VBL's). A vapor barrier is anything that doesn't breath (nitrile, etc). You wear a VBL in between your skin and insulation layers to prevent perspiration from soaking the insulation and keeping it from insulating. The result is wet, clammy, WARM hands/feet/etc.

Thanks for clearing this up, I wasn't actually sure what they were talking about as I have little experience with this kind of thing. I didn't end up taking any exam gloves, I brought a pair of heavy ski gloves instead. I think I'm going to get some possom down gloves and eVent rain mittens when my budget allows, or when I'm next doing a cold hike.

JAK
12-24-2012, 20:53
Here is a simple check I use, but you might want to test and develop your own system.

I decide the lowest temperature I am preparing for, usually the historic low for that month. Then I get dressed in layers with even coverage from head to toe, 1 oz for every degF below about 85-90degF. That doesn't include shoes, shorts, or shells. If below 0F is possible, I throw in an extra set of long wool underwear for good measure. Otherwise no spares as the extra layers I won't be wearing most days are my spares.

JAK
12-24-2012, 21:06
Works out to about 4 pounds for 20degF, not counting shoes, shorts, and shells. 5-6 pounds if -10F to 0F is possible. Usually the historic low is in the early morning I would be in the bag anyways, and that's a different matter, but it's still good to know you can survive if you had to get out and about for whatever reason. Being able to build a fire in an emergency is an essential skill though. You can't depend on being able to do so, but its foolish not to be prepared to do so when you can, when you have to. Below -30 gets real serious IMO, and I need more practice is all I can say, best done nearby some reliable shelter like a log cabin or walled tent with wood stove, or a house. We are usually blessed with a few nights each January so my backyard works, but last year it didn't get that cold. A few more nights practice in that stuff and I would like to go further out on such a cold snap. Got a new bag I can use as an inner bag in my regular bag. Good fit. Down inside of Synthetic. Need to test it. I am happy trying new ideas above 0F on the trail, but below 0F, nope.

Kc Fiedler
12-25-2012, 00:08
Without doubt the best way to answer this question is to head out with the gear you are going to have in the conditions you are expecting. Give it a test run. I can say that the Marmot Precip will probably wear out and start peeling the waterproof lining out after a month on the trail. It's not the most stable water protection in my experience.

Another Kevin
12-25-2012, 03:33
Had to do a water crossing by some lake that was above my belly button (I'm 6'). Not sure how cold it was out but there was ice everywhere so either below freezing or close to it.

Where was that? I can't think of any deep stream crossings in Harriman that you couldn't 'whack around even if there's a bridge out. (Worst case, 'whack over to the next bridge.) And at this time of year, there won't be any heavy brush to push through.

Double-checking the map: If it was the Island Pond outlet, walk the old Island Pond road up to Arden Valley Road, cross the stream on that, walk back in on Crooked Road, a detour of maybe half a mile, no signage but the woods roads are dead easy to follow. Surebridge Brook is shallow and swampy, but if the water is high (higher than I've ever seen it), take the Surebridge Mine road (on the west side of the brook) up to Arden Valley Road (or swing right onto the Long Path at the crossing and take that to Arden Valley Road) and pick up the AT again at the Lake Tiorati junction. I can't imagine that Nawahunta, Bockey Swamp or Stillwater would be a problem any time of year. And you jumped off the trail at the visitor center, so I don't need to look east of the parkway.

So I'm puzzled where it was that you hit the difficult crossing. I'm down to Bear Mountain-Harriman-Sterling Forest fairly regularly, so if there's a new problem, I'd surely like to know about it!

I've done the Lemon Squeezer and the scramble in winter before, but I had spikes on. I wouldn't want to try it barebooted if it was icy.

Datto
12-25-2012, 05:22
You may want to take an inexpensive Mylar sleeping bag with you. If it gets uncomfortably cold, you can get inside the Mylar sleeping bag with some hot water bottles, then put your regular sleeping bag over the Mylar sleeping bag. You'll likely be warm after a while. Weight is something like 4 oz. You can get the Space brand Mylar sleeping bag or the slightly more expensive but more durable Mylar sleeping bag from American somebody. As I remember, REI or Campmor has them.


Datto

Datto
12-25-2012, 05:25
By the way, I've been through a few blizzards while hiking and carrying a Mylar sleeping bag. The Mylar sleeping bag trick with the hot water bottles allowed me to keep my sense of humor through the blizzards without getting too cold.


Datto

Cookerhiker
12-25-2012, 09:41
Andrew, I'm glad that you successfully and safely completed your hike. And now, you can testify with the rest of us on the misleadingly-steep terrain in NY west of the Hudson. FYI, the Trail east of the Hudson is much easier.


Where was that? I can't think of any deep stream crossings in Harriman that you couldn't 'whack around even if there's a bridge out. (Worst case, 'whack over to the next bridge.) And at this time of year, there won't be any heavy brush to push through.

Double-checking the map: If it was the Island Pond outlet, walk the old Island Pond road up to Arden Valley Road, cross the stream on that, walk back in on Crooked Road, a detour of maybe half a mile, no signage but the woods roads are dead easy to follow. Surebridge Brook is shallow and swampy, but if the water is high (higher than I've ever seen it), take the Surebridge Mine road (on the west side of the brook) up to Arden Valley Road (or swing right onto the Long Path at the crossing and take that to Arden Valley Road) and pick up the AT again at the Lake Tiorati junction. I can't imagine that Nawahunta, Bockey Swamp or Stillwater would be a problem any time of year. And you jumped off the trail at the visitor center, so I don't need to look east of the parkway.

So I'm puzzled where it was that you hit the difficult crossing. I'm down to Bear Mountain-Harriman-Sterling Forest fairly regularly, so if there's a new problem, I'd surely like to know about it!

I've done the Lemon Squeezer and the scramble in winter before, but I had spikes on. I wouldn't want to try it barebooted if it was icy.

I wondered the same thing, especially when he described the depth of the water. But I haven't hiked there in winter in 40 years.

hikerboy57
12-25-2012, 09:49
Made it. Did Longhouse Drive (Road?) to the Palisades Parkway visitor center, cut it a little short of Bear Mountain because I wasn't nearly as fast in this terrain as I thought and I'm visiting family today. 11 or so miles the first day, 15 the second day, about 7.5 today.

You guys weren't joking, this terrain is MUCH harder than the AWOL elevation profile led me to believe. Some real tough ups on the second day, the lemon squeezer and the little climb just after were really iced over. Had to do a water crossing by some lake that was above my belly button (I'm 6'). Not sure how cold it was out but there was ice everywhere so either below freezing or close to it.

I took off my shoes and socks, crossed barefoot in my merino boxers and athletic shorts. Stripped them off when I got to dry land, threw on my merino bottom baselayer and shoes/socks. It actually wasn't that bad. I assume there was a bridge there before, but I guess Sandy took it out? On the first day there was a shin deep water crossing maybe a mile from where I started on Longhouse Drive, fast moving current but I was able to hang on to a downed tree as I crossed. Got a little snow the first day, some pretty intense wind. It was like 74 in Gainesville the day I left, and then less than 24 hours later I'm crossing a freezing river... great trip.

Let me know if I did anything wrong. I made it so I assume I didn't do anything too wrong, but what is the standard for river crossings in freezing conditions?

Gear worked out great. I carried a polyster Under Armor hoodie for use during the day. Most of the time I hiked in merino boxers, athletic shorts, merino baselayer top and merino glove liners. Didn't really need the hoodie, but it was nice to put my legs through the arm holes at night (and to throw on while still sweating, as MuddyWaters suggested) . Slept in my quilt with my down balaclava, down jacket unzipped, merino t shirt, merino baselayers top and bottom, hoodie covering the legs, two pairs of merino socks with handwarmers in between the layers. I was downright toasty, temps were probably in the 20s. I also carried a pair of waterproof ski gloves that made my hands start to sweat as soon as I put them on, so I didn't need them. Would have been nice in an emergency though so I don't regret having them.
i dont remember any stream fords between greenwood lake and bear mtn. which section was this?there are some minor stream crossings near mombasha lake, but nothing i remember you couldnt just hop over

hikerboy57
12-25-2012, 09:51
i dont remember any stream fords between greenwood lake and bear mtn. which section was this?there are some minor stream crossings near mombasha lake, but nothing i remember you couldnt just hop over
oh. glad you stayed warm and dry.
the lemon squeezer is evidence that the marquis d sade had a hand in the planning of the at(it could be easily avoided. one of those things that make the at "suck")

Andrewsobo
12-25-2012, 11:32
Neither water crossing was in Harriman, both were before the park.

First crossing was "Long house creek, bridge". There was half a bridge, creek looked to be at least twice as wide as it normally is. I was able to start the crossing on the remaining section of bridge, but then had to brace myself against fallen trees (not large enough to balance on, and probably more dangerous that way anyway). Water was only shin deep but moving very fast.

Second, and much deeper water crossing, was "Little Dam Lake, footbridge". There was no sign of a bridge at all, water looked to be much deeper and wider than it usually is.

I hiked a fair distance up and down stream both times looking for an easier place to cross. Wasn't really any better spot than where the trail came to the water, although at Little Dam Lake I did go probably 50 feet upstream to a wider point with less of a current.

There were multiple crossings where I had to leave the trail to find a safer point to cross, these two were the only ones that I actually had to get wet. This really slowed me down. Combined with all the trees down from Sandy, and the fact that many sections were completely washed out with thick leaves covering the ground and no sign of an actual trail. Lots of hunting for the next blaze, or backtracking to a blaze I past to try to find the trail. That and the short days and I was really pressed for time to make it to the shelter before dark doing Wildcat to Fingerboard, a distant I'd usually have no difficulty doing far before dark in the summer/good trail conditions.

Harriman conditions were awesome. And some guys came up and brought a Christmas tree, bratwurst, hot chocolate and cider.

Also, someone abandoned some unopened beer in the Wildcat shelter. So that was nice the first night.