Winter camping ; tenting in the snow

[johnnybgood]

What tips and suggestions do you have for a winter backpacking trip,which could include camping in accumulating snow. I have never pitched my REI half dome tent in the snow before ? Hopefully it doesn't fall as freezing rain. Will be bringing along the microspikes just in case of snow or ice.
I don't ever overnight if the weather forecast is calling for below 32 degree temps or snow...until now.

Plan on bringing the stove and cook under a tarp away from the tent. Soups and dehydrated pre-packaged foods for meals and instant grits for breakfast is what I'm looking at.
What sage advice does anyone else have about winter backpacking / camping ?

[garlic08]

There are several good methods of anchoring a tent in snow. If you do an internet search, you'll get nice pictures, too. Remember if you bury an anchor, you might not be able to remove it if it freezes solid overnight, so try to use something you can leave, like a native stick and some old hemp twine.

[garlic08]

A few old truisms to keep in mind always: The best way to stay warm is to never get cold. If your feet get cold, put on a hat. You can tell a rookie winter camper by looking at his/her shoes--rookies always burn them in the fire.

[Tipi Walter]

As everyone knows, backpacking in deep snow can be tough and tougher yet if you're going up a mountain in 2 foot depths. Ridgelines in the Southeast often get 3 feet plus in drifts while 3,000 feet down the mountain there's barely 6 inches. No one I know carries snowshoes in the Southeast mountains but many like microspikes, etc.

Another problem on trails in the Southeast are what I call Snowdowns---whereby the green tunnel of the trail collapses onto the trail under rhododendron and evergreen snow loads. This can make hiking arduous or impossible, depending on how crazy you are.

Tent placement or camp placement in the snow is also a hassle as I prefer to scrap away the snow to ground level for my tent. A foot of snow and it's generally no problem to do this with your hands (it'll eat your gloves up though). Anything deeper and it's real nice to have a lightweight backpacking shovel.

Some backpackers like to stomp down the snow with their boots and make a tent platform but I find it to be uneven, cold, and with the occasional sinking down after the tent is up, or melting in a trough causing a slant, etc.

[Slo-go'en]

It helps to have a self supporting tent so you don't have to deal with stakes. Depending on how deep the snow is, you'll probably have to stomp down the area around where the tent will go. Snowshoes are good for this or lay down and roll around in it :)

Even with a couple of layers of closed cell foam pads under you, your body heat will likely melt or soften the snow under the tent. If you don't take the tent down right away after you get up, it could freeze to the snow and it will be a pain to get loose again.

[scudder]

Heat some water before turning in, and pour it in a waterbottle. Carefully seal the bottle, then stash in the footbox of your bag. Helps keep your feet warm, and you'll likely have unfrozen water to start off your morning brew.

[johnnybgood]

Garlic ; I have very old steel tent stakes from a 1950's camp tent that has long ago bit the dust. They would no doubt be able to anchor down a tent in frozen ground.
Usually I carry only 2 mini spikes for the tent fly and back unless windy conditions call for securing more tighter.

[johnnybgood]

Heat some water before turning in, and pour it in a waterbottle. Carefully seal the bottle, then stash in the footbox of your bag. Helps keep your feet warm, and you'll likely have unfrozen water to start off your morning brew.

Good deal Scudder ! Must also remember to get an empty liter gatorade bottle for mother nature's middle of the night call. I generally don't mind stepping outside the tent in warmer weather and walking off to answer the call, but not in sub freezing temps.

[Cookerhiker]

Question: on the subject of tent stakes, I had heard (maybe on WB - I don't remember) that bringing some vegetable oil and rubbing it on the stakes beforehand prevents them from getting frozen stuck. Is this true?

[bigcranky]

I've stepped outside for the call of nature in temps down into the single digits. Yeah, it's cold. But if you have a good bag, getting back inside feels sooooo good. And the exercise helps warm me up in the middle of the night.

I bring two sets of gloves and hats - a lighter set for hiking and a much warmer set for camp. My hiking set is always damp from sweat, so it's nice to have a warm dry set at the end of the day.

If you have down jacket (and if not, they are really useful in the winter), use it inside your bag, draped over your torso from neck to thighs.

Bring a small piece of closed cell foam to sit on; this will keep your butt from getting cold on a rock, or the ground. At night, put it inside your sleeping bag under your feet; this helps tremendously in keeping my feet warm at night. Big thick wool socks help, too.

Bring plenty of hot drinks. I like decaf green tea at night, but hot chocolate works too. A hot drink makes everything better, and I like to have several over the course of the evening and before I go to bed. (Which gets back to the part about answering the call of nature. Alas.) I try to bring at least 3 teabags per evening.

Make sure you have new batteries in your headlamp. Lithium cells work better in the cold.

I like to bring a book or listen to music on my phone at night.

Good luck and stay warm!

[Papa D]

I use Scudder's hot water bottle trick very often - and sometimes with 2 liters. Assuming you don't cross thread the bottle (very bad) - you should go to sleep very warm. The water will likely still be lukewarm by morning - I typically then boil it for coffee and breakfast. This (obviously) also keeps your water from freezing at night.

As for tenting in the snow: The first thing that I do is select a safe site - a place where no ice or dead frozen limbs might fall on me. If I can find a low spot sheltered from the wind, that's great too. Sites near creeks and high elevation sites tend to be the coldest - somewhere in between the two would be ideal. Clearing the snow to the ground (a la Tipi Walter) is a good choice with light snow cover but not always possible or necessary. I've found that my tyvek ground sheet and pad tend to displace my weight so that I'm never sleeping in a trench so pitching right on top of the snow is good to go. I've never really intentionally packed it down which would cause it to re-freeze and be a really hard surface.

A good way to anchor your tent is with a "deadman" anchor - - you can use a rock, a small log, or even a plastic bag or dry bag packed full of snow for a deadman:

To stake or guy a tent in snow:
* Attach a line to the tent guy point.
* Tie an adjustable loop in the line.
* dig a small trench a few feet away from the tent and perpendicular to the direction of the line to the digging spot.
* Place the deadman through the loop and bury it in the trench. make sure that the adjustment area at the tent end of the loop is not buried.
* Stomp on the deadman, which should be 6" - 10" below the snow now. You can pour a small amount of water on this spot to really set it.
Tightn up the guy line.

Garlic's point is also good - - stay warm vs trying to get warm. I don't carry a lot of "spare clothes" but I do have hiking clothes and camp clothes. Believe it or not, in the snow, I'll often hike in rain pants over compression shorts and just a long sleeve t-shirt on top - moving right along at a brisk pace generates a lot of heat. When I stop, I'll toss on a fleece but when I stop for good, I take the time to strip down, dry off and put on layers of long-johns, wool, a warm fleece hat and a down jacket. If it's super cold, I even have down booties (ooo la la - super warming).

Finally, extra fuel is always a plus in the winter - from boiling hot water, melting snow (if necessary) to making hot drinks, it's a must in my book. I also leave my lightweight alky stoves and pocket rockets at home in the very cold - a MSR Whisperlight is the tool of choice when it's really cold.

[Tinker]

It helps to have a self supporting tent so you don't have to deal with stakes. Depending on how deep the snow is, you'll probably have to stomp down the area around where the tent will go. Snowshoes are good for this or lay down and roll around in it :)

Even with a couple of layers of closed cell foam pads under you, your body heat will likely melt or soften the snow under the tent. If you don't take the tent down right away after you get up, it could freeze to the snow and it will be a pain to get loose again.


If it is windy you will still need stakes, freestanding tent or not. Unless you're on a bald you should be able to tie off to trees or bushes. I'm one who has always stomped down the snow before setting my tent up (with snowshoes, in the White Mountains, mainly). Stomping down the snow where you wish to anchor your tent is a good idea, too, if the snow is deeper than a couple of feet. You can then dig a trench perpendicular to your tent's guy line, wrap the guy line around a stick, place it in the trench and cover it with snow, stomping it down again. It helps if you don't tie a knot below the snow line because you may never be able to untie it once it freezes. Sometimes the stick won't come out (rarely), then it will help if you can untie the knot on your guy line and simply pull on the tent end until it comes free from the stick. You can also use skis and snowshoes, which I often had in the White Mountains but you probably won't have down south.

In deep snow you can also fill stuffsacks with snow and bury them as anchors. They may be hard to get out, just like anything else.

Looks like I was composing this while the previous post was being made. Oh, well, glad we agree. :)

[Sarcasm the elf]

If you don't mind, I'm going to be lazy and repost a comment I made last year:

The link to the original thread is below and has some more good info:

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?78973-cold-and-miserable


I don't claim to be anything close to a 2000 miler or an expert, but I've been getting into winter camping the past couple of years and here's what I've figured out that works for me so far.

1) Keep your bag dry at all costs
2) Have a separate set of dry cloths to sleep in, as you said put your cold ass hiking cloths back on in the morning, it's worth it in order to keep your sleeping cloths dry.
3) If it's below freezing, make sure you have enough ground pad insulation, this is just as important as having the right sleeping bag. This can be as simple as doubling up and bringing a second foam pad.
4) Plan it out so that you get things ready at night and can break camp as easily as possible in the morning, minimize the time between when you get out of your bag and when you get on the trail. Basically suck it up and get hiking as soon as you can, it sucks to get started, but once you're on the trail and moving everything gets better. Postpone anything you can skip such as breakfast and any hygiene related chores, they are miserable to do while you are half awake and freezing. Instead hike a mile or two and then take a break, eat and do anything you may have put off.

[Papa D]

If you don't mind, I'm going to be lazy and repost a comment I made last year:

The link to the original thread is below and has some more good info:

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?78973-cold-and-miserable

I agree with all this StE except I'd much rather sleep in clothes than just cloths. :eek:

[Sarcasm the elf]

I agree with all this StE except I'd much rather sleep in clothes than just cloths. :eek:

Yes, but buying bolts of fabric from a sewing store is much cheaper than buying expensive hiking clothes...and I can't sew... :D

[handlebar]

Heat some water before turning in, and pour it in a waterbottle. Carefully seal the bottle, then stash in the footbox of your bag. Helps keep your feet warm, and you'll likely have unfrozen water to start off your morning brew. For hot water bottles in the winter, I use Nalgene's. Heavy? Yes, but much less likely to deform or leak than recycled soda bottles. +1 on using a white gas stove. Comes in handy to boil water for those bottles and if you need to melt snow for water.

[Papa D]

For hot water bottles in the winter, I use Nalgene's. Heavy? Yes, but much less likely to deform or leak than recycled soda bottles. +1 on using a white gas stove. Comes in handy to boil water for those bottles and if you need to melt snow for water.

Absolutely - or steel bottles are fine too - recycled soda or gatorade bottles are my first choice above 35 degrees - between 25-35, I take one of each - in true winter conditions, I go all nalegene

[Oslohiker]

Good deal Scudder ! Must also remember to get an empty liter gatorade bottle for mother nature's middle of the night call. I generally don't mind stepping outside the tent in warmer weather and walking off to answer the call, but not in sub freezing temps.

Yuk! Put on your boots and go out and pee. Jezz..... Unless it's -40....

[Oslohiker]

This is the perfect way to pitch a tent in the winter. You don't have skis, but you just have to level the "floor" as much as possible. Use dedicated snow pegs:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-G2v8VJRziI

Have what you need to be dry the next day inside your sleeping bag. If you feel to cold doing that you should have a sleepingbag with a lower temperature rating.


Note: In Norway, we regularly use the stove inside the tent. IT IS NOT RECOMMENDED, because the carbon monoxide can kill you and the silnylon can catch fire. But this is the actual method we use the get warm and dry out stuff. The danger for a beginner to get himself killed doing that is high.

[Bati]

What tips and suggestions do you have for a winter backpacking trip,which could include camping in accumulating snow.

Since you do not have a 4 season tent designed to handle a heavy snow load, I would suggest getting up frequently and going outside. In a typical 3-season tent, the tent will start to sag in various places as snow accumulates. If you fail to clear these areas off, the tent can collapse; if there isn't that much snow, you might just wake up with a wet bag from having the end of the tent sagging and resting on your feet.
In a bad storm, be very mindful of 3 season tents with mesh. I had a bad experience once where we cleared the snow off the top of the tent, but simply brushed it away as we had no idea how much snow would fall. Had we known (aside from possibly avoiding the whole situation), we might have been able to shape the snow into walls and thus prevent it from blowing under the fly and coming through the mesh onto a sleeping bag. If you have mesh walls, you may want to place something between the wall and your bag to stay drier; a gore-tex jacket laid over you bag would be a good start.
Needless to say, anytime a storm is possible, be sure to use all the stakes and lines on the tent. It's much better to set things up in the evening than at 3 am. But I agree with the last post- it won't kill you to go outside unless it's truly dangerous out. If you're in a 3 season tent, it might behoove you to get up and check on the tent just to sure, especially if a lot of snow is falling. Keep plastic grocery bags handy so that you feet don't get wet when you put your boots or sandals on.

[Snowleopard]

In the north, it's usually a good idea to bring snowshoes; the snowdowns TipiWalter mentions happen here too, but less often than in the south. People get stuck when there's a lot more snow than forecast and have to be rescued. Don't count on following your tracks out or even following the trail (blazes get covered by snow).

Stoves: Don't use stoves in the tent!!! Yes, mountaineers sometimes do this, but you're not on Everest. Liquid fuel stoves flare up and all stoves put out carbon monoxide which can kill you. For cold weather or melting snow, liquid fuel/white gas stoves are best. Some canister stoves can be used with the canister inverted and this works OK -- these stoves have a preheat tube that vaporizes the fuel, don't do this with the usual canister stoves that don't have the preheat tube (unsafe). If you have to melt snow for water, bring LOTS of fuel; if there is open water nearby use that.

Snow is cold; you probably already knew this. Snow is also hard. A good pad is a necessity.

[Oslohiker]

In the north, it's usually a good idea to bring snowshoes; the snowdowns TipiWalter mentions happen here too, but less often than in the south. People get stuck when there's a lot more snow than forecast and have to be rescued. Don't count on following your tracks out or even following the trail (blazes get covered by snow).

Stoves: Don't use stoves in the tent!!! Yes, mountaineers sometimes do this, but you're not on Everest. Liquid fuel stoves flare up and all stoves put out carbon monoxide which can kill you. For cold weather or melting snow, liquid fuel/white gas stoves are best. Some canister stoves can be used with the canister inverted and this works OK -- these stoves have a preheat tube that vaporizes the fuel, don't do this with the usual canister stoves that don't have the preheat tube (unsafe). If you have to melt snow for water, bring LOTS of fuel; if there is open water nearby use that.

Snow is cold; you probably already knew this. Snow is also hard. A good pad is a necessity.


It is not that dangerous, you just have to know what you are doing. But, of course, the consequences are serious. I am doing it, but you take your own risks.

Snowshoes over skis for moving over long distaces on snow? Not a freaking chance.....

[Rasty]

In the north, it's usually a good idea to bring snowshoes; the snowdowns TipiWalter mentions happen here too, but less often than in the south. People get stuck when there's a lot more snow than forecast and have to be rescued. Don't count on following your tracks out or even following the trail (blazes get covered by snow).

Stoves: Don't use stoves in the tent!!! Yes, mountaineers sometimes do this, but you're not on Everest. Liquid fuel stoves flare up and all stoves put out carbon monoxide which can kill you. For cold weather or melting snow, liquid fuel/white gas stoves are best. Some canister stoves can be used with the canister inverted and this works OK -- these stoves have a preheat tube that vaporizes the fuel, don't do this with the usual canister stoves that don't have the preheat tube (unsafe). If you have to melt snow for water, bring LOTS of fuel; if there is open water nearby use that.

Snow is cold; you probably already knew this. Snow is also hard. A good pad is a necessity.


It is not that dangerous, you just have to know what you are doing. But, of course, the consequences are serious. I am doing it, but you take your own risks.

Snowshoes over skis for moving over long distaces on snow? Not a freaking chance.....

Most hiking trails here are not skiing friendly. Too many tight switchbacks, steps, tiny bridges, etc.

[Snowleopard]

It is not that dangerous, you just have to know what you are doing. But, of course, the consequences are serious. I am doing it, but you take your own risks.

Snowshoes over skis for moving over long distaces on snow? Not a freaking chance.....
One needs to be very careful with stoves in winter. Some stoves put out a lot more CO than others. BPL measured the CO from camping stoves (you have to be a member of BPL to read it: http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/stoves_tents_carbon_monoxide_index.html ) From memory, most alcohol stoves have high CO, the MSR reactor stove puts out extremely high CO, MSR pocket rocket puts out high CO; my winter stove, Optimus Nova, is fairly good, and Primus EtaPower is very good.

Skis vs. snowshoes: you are absolutely right, skis are faster on terrain within your ability. Around here, people most often get in trouble in the White Mtns of NH where most trails below treeline are steep, narrow, winding, often icy, and treelined, definitely too difficult for my skiing ability. Some people xc ski the first few miles to the base of a climb, then hike/snowshoe/crampon up. Snowshoes are easier on White Mt trails for most people. On milder terrain, most people here don't understand how easy and efficient xc skiing is.

Here's a link to an amazing trip: someone is now skiing across Canada, from Prince Rupert, BC to Quebec City, now about 600km east of Prince Rupert. http://www.bigski.org/index.html

Oslohiker, I'd be very interested in some of your winter trip reports.

[johnnybgood]

Using a stove under a tarp is fine from everything I've heard as long as a windscreen is used and caution is exercised.

As far as snowshoes go , I don't own any and don't plan on needing them. Tried to snowshoe in NH a few years back and failed miserably. Good education on winter camping here guys,keep it coming.

[RedBeerd]

I always pee in a bottle..but when you get home make sure your mom doesn't take it out of the dishwasher to take a swig of some water from it. My mom will never see a nalgene bottle the same...

[fiddlehead]

Excuse me if this has already been said (sorry, I have no patience for reading the long posts from those who can't find the "Enter" key)
When winter camping, (or early spring, late fall) learn to put your water bottle upside down if not sleeping with it.
Because water freezes at the top first, so, unless it is frozen solid, you'll still be able to get some out of it in the morning.

Also, place wet clothes underneath your sleeping pad, they'll be practically dry in the morning when you need to put them back on. (ALWAYS keep one set dry for sleeping)

[ljcsov]

Great stuff everyone! Much thanks for all the info!

[mrcoffeect]

One thing i like about winter hiking, is that you can bring food out with you that would spoil quickly in summer. it's good to load up on foods with higher fat content in the winter .

[Another Kevin]

Different people have different ideas about what "winter" is.

It sounds as if the original poster is talking about what I'd call "shoulder season" stuff - where you're not expecting snow but just might get some, and you're surely not going to be out in full-on mountain winter conditions. That's not all that different from summer. The hot water bottle trick is good, because you have at least some unfrozen water to get started with in the morning. I never have a lack of natural anchor points to fasten the wind guys of my tent, because I don't camp above treeline in this part of the world, ever. I find I'm good hiking in compression shorts, long-sleeve tee, and wind pants and jacket, down to freezing or so, beyond that I'm likely to add on long johns and a fleece. But any stop, and out comes the down!

I live in microspikes when I'm out in the winter. They help with traction on wet rock and half-frozen mud, too.

And I've certainly had some great trips in 20-degree temps and sleet. No mud, no bugs, no tourists, what's not to like?

For full-on winter, things get specialized. There's just no way to cover everything in a post. I can't recommend enough spending a few hundred bucks on something like the ADK Winter Mountaineering School (http://www.winterschool.org/). The only way to be safe with all the winter gear and techniques is to get someone to teach you how to use them. The student handbook (http://www.winterschool.org/WMS%20Student%20Handbook.pdf) is worth a look-see. It covers the stuff you need to know before you sign up for Winter Mountaineering School - and even at that, it's pretty intimidating to newbies.

Tipi Walter may have a different opinion. Believe him. He's forgotten more about winter backpacking than I'll ever learn.

[J5man]

fill your pot with water the night before and let it freeze in the pot. You simply put it on the stove and it will melt.....this is in case your water supply freezes in your nalgene or platty and cant get it into the pot..........this way even if all your water is frozen, at least part of is already where you are trying it get it to...your pot. I got that bit of wisdom on here a couple of years ago and have used it. And go ahead and pee in a bottle, dont listen to the others! LOL....I have learned a lot from Tipi Walter on winter camping. He is my go to expert. Happy hiking JB!

[peakbagger]

Double your calories for food. Winter camping isnt a good time to diet. Lots of fat makes a big difference. Some folks add squeeze parkay to every warm liquid they drink.

[Tipi Walter]

For full-on winter, things get specialized. There's just no way to cover everything in a post. I can't recommend enough spending a few hundred bucks on something like the ADK Winter Mountaineering School (http://www.winterschool.org/). The only way to be safe with all the winter gear and techniques is to get someone to teach you how to use them. The student handbook (http://www.winterschool.org/WMS%20Student%20Handbook.pdf) is worth a look-see. It covers the stuff you need to know before you sign up for Winter Mountaineering School - and even at that, it's pretty intimidating to newbies.

Tipi Walter may have a different opinion. Believe him. He's forgotten more about winter backpacking than I'll ever learn.

My winter skills are relevant to the mountains of Virginia, North Carolina and Tennessee. There are boys in Michigan and Montana and Idaho (and yes the Adirondacks) who backpack in true winter conditions where the temps never get above 0F and nights are at -20F+ degrees. My worst time was at -30F around Boone NC but that was in January '85 and only lasted 3 or 4 days. And I never have used snowshoes, a staple item for real winter backpackers. There are some guys who actually require using VBL's for survival. Not me.

[Slo-go'en]

Snowshoes are easier on White Mt trails for most people. On milder terrain, most people here don't understand how easy and efficient xc skiing is.

XC skiing is great on groomed trails or trails made for that purpose. The Catamont trail in Vermont is a long distance ski trail which could be fun. There are some trails here in the Whites suitable for xc skiing, but if you want to gain any altitude, you'll need snowshoes. Besides the trails being narrow, steep and with sharp turns, there are all the rocks and tree limbs across the trail which make skiing a real pain to do.

We're starting to get a base of hard, crusty snow laid down up here. Maybe after Thursday's storm it will be deep enough to be able to break out the snowshoes.

[Feral Bill]

In the north, it's usually a good idea to bring snowshoes; the snowdowns TipiWalter mentions happen here too, but less often than in the south. People get stuck when there's a lot more snow than forecast and have to be rescued. Don't count on following your tracks out or even following the trail (blazes get covered by snow).

Stoves: Don't use stoves in the tent!!! Yes, mountaineers sometimes do this, but you're not on Everest. Liquid fuel stoves flare up and all stoves put out carbon monoxide which can kill you. For cold weather or melting snow, liquid fuel/white gas stoves are best. Some canister stoves can be used with the canister inverted and this works OK -- these stoves have a preheat tube that vaporizes the fuel, don't do this with the usual canister stoves that don't have the preheat tube (unsafe). If you have to melt snow for water, bring LOTS of fuel; if there is open water nearby use that.

Snow is cold; you probably already knew this. Snow is also hard. A good pad is a necessity.


I have done this with no ill consequences, that doesn't make it a bit less stupid.

[Feral Bill]

XC skiing is great on groomed trails or trails made for that purpose. The Catamont trail in Vermont is a long distance ski trail which could be fun. There are some trails here in the Whites suitable for xc skiing, but if you want to gain any altitude, you'll need snowshoes. Besides the trails being narrow, steep and with sharp turns, there are all the rocks and tree limbs across the trail which make skiing a real pain to do.

We're starting to get a base of hard, crusty snow laid down up here. Maybe after Thursday's storm it will be deep enough to be able to break out the snowshoes.
It use to be common in the Adirondacks for people to ski in the valley trails, carrying snowshoes, then use the shoes for climbing. Maybe people still do.

[Another Kevin]

My winter skills are relevant to the mountains of Virginia, North Carolina and Tennessee. There are boys in Michigan and Montana and Idaho (and yes the Adirondacks) who backpack in true winter conditions where the temps never get above 0F and nights are at -20F+ degrees. My worst time was at -30F around Boone NC but that was in January '85 and only lasted 3 or 4 days. And I never have used snowshoes, a staple item for real winter backpackers. There are some guys who actually require using VBL's for survival. Not me.

Hey, thanks for the reply, TW! Interesting - With the Smokies so high up, I'd have imagined that the conditions in NC/TN were fairly similar, but from your comments, clearly they aren't. I got caught out at -45F on a day trip in the Whites once. Brrr. Only time I ever wore my down puffy layer while hiking, as opposed to at stops. (I turned right around and went home, and I'd have been in serious trouble if I had to stop before I got back down into the deciduous forest.)

Since I live in the Mohawk Valley, the easiest places for me to get out and hike are the Catskills and the Adirondacks. Both have real winters. I confine my winter outings to day trips when I think I can trust the weather. I'm not equipped for more. (In the real winter, full [12 point] crampons, snowshoes, mountaineering boots with removable liners, and ice axe are mandatory items.) Moreover, my skills aren't current. In particular, I'm out of practice at self arrest, so I consciously avoid slopes with any significant runout in winter conditions.

But I manage to have fun pretty deep into the "shoulder season". Here's a pic I took of my daughter on December 28 last year atop Slide Mountain (4180 feet). It was a mild day that day - temps got up in the 20s down in the valleys, and up top the thermometer on my zipper pull said 8F. The snow was no more than boot deep, but there was enough ice underneath that we needed spikes. I couldn't have done it bare-booted.

18580

If I ever do get geared up for full-on winter camping, there are some gorgeous spots on the ridge between there and Cornell Mountain that I want to try. (Camping above 3500 feet on NY State lands is lawful only in the winter months. Snow is a "durable surface" by LNT standards, but the subalpine and alpine vegetation is not.)

[Lyle]

Extra insulation underneath you.

Down Booties.

[JAK]

Blue foam pads are excellent on snow. Warm for their weight and the snow beneath can provide extra padding.
I like it extra wide in winter though, as in 28" long, so you don't get condensation if your body parts wander.
On hard ground if really cold, under 0F, a second pad is good, but it can be smaller.

[Papa D]

I think that most of us use a stove in our tent to dry things out here and there - - it is dangerous, yes and you could conceivably be asphyxiated doing this, but it is unlikely. I hope I'm not risking some liability here but I cook (and dry things out with my stove) in my vestibule regularly in the winter - - being very organized with the material and supplies around you is helpful and every minute or so, you should open the fly for some fresh air - - sometimes I just stick my head out (or under the fly) for some breaths of fresh air. I admit that knowing how to use your stove in your tent in the wind and rain is a somewhat advanced skill but serious hikers need to pick up on how to do it - - in hypothermic prone conditions it is important and I'm tired of everyone saying it is so "off-limits" when I know that they do it themselves. I've worked with various stoves in tents and vestibules for literally hundreds of nights and have never been so much as light-headed from it - - naturally, you must be on your toes.
ok everyone, start disagreeing with me

[Rasty]

I think that most of us use a stove in our tent to dry things out here and there - - it is dangerous, yes and you could conceivably be asphyxiated doing this, but it is unlikely. I hope I'm not risking some liability here but I cook (and dry things out with my stove) in my vestibule regularly in the winter - - being very organized with the material and supplies around you is helpful and every minute or so, you should open the fly for some fresh air - - sometimes I just stick my head out (or under the fly) for some breaths of fresh air. I admit that knowing how to use your stove in your tent in the wind and rain is a somewhat advanced skill but serious hikers need to pick up on how to do it - - in hypothermic prone conditions it is important and I'm tired of everyone saying it is so "off-limits" when I know that they do it themselves. I've worked with various stoves in tents and vestibules for literally hundreds of nights and have never been so much as light-headed from it - - naturally, you must be on your toes.
ok everyone, start disagreeing with me

I agree with you.

[garlic08]

Good tip above about ice in the pot. That reminds me, you might need to learn how to melt snow on your stove. You have to keep water in the bottom of the pot or you could burn or even melt it. When you melt powder snow, this is harder than it sounds. By the way, I found that alcohol stoves actually work well for this, since the flame is cooler for a longer time in extreme cold. It uses too much fuel for more than a night or two, though.

[Oslohiker]

Good tip above about ice in the pot. That reminds me, you might need to learn how to melt snow on your stove.

It is also important to know that the carbon monoxide level gets much higher when you melt snow and make food, than just using the burner for heating the tent.

[Tipi Walter]

Hey, thanks for the reply, TW! Interesting - With the Smokies so high up, I'd have imagined that the conditions in NC/TN were fairly similar, but from your comments, clearly they aren't. I got caught out at -45F on a day trip in the Whites once. Brrr. Only time I ever wore my down puffy layer while hiking, as opposed to at stops. (I turned right around and went home, and I'd have been in serious trouble if I had to stop before I got back down into the deciduous forest.)

We occasionally get hit with subzero temps and especially in areas known for toughness---Mt Rogers, Shining Rock, parts of the Smokies like Mt LeConte, etc, Dolly Sods in West Va, and various high elevation peaks. Anything above 5,000 feet will surely get nasty at times with some low temps and high winds with high ridge drifts. Was your -45F on a day trip actual ambients or wind chills?? I don't count wind chill figures in my calculations---only ambients.


I think that most of us use a stove in our tent to dry things out here and there - - it is dangerous, yes and you could conceivably be asphyxiated doing this, but it is unlikely. I hope I'm not risking some liability here but I cook (and dry things out with my stove) in my vestibule regularly in the winter - - being very organized with the material and supplies around you is helpful and every minute or so, you should open the fly for some fresh air - - sometimes I just stick my head out (or under the fly) for some breaths of fresh air. I admit that knowing how to use your stove in your tent in the wind and rain is a somewhat advanced skill but serious hikers need to pick up on how to do it - - in hypothermic prone conditions it is important and I'm tired of everyone saying it is so "off-limits" when I know that they do it themselves. I've worked with various stoves in tents and vestibules for literally hundreds of nights and have never been so much as light-headed from it - - naturally, you must be on your toes.
ok everyone, start disagreeing with me

Odd but I never use my stove and its precious white gas for drying things out in the tent or elsewhere. I use my stove strictly for cooking and nothing else since my fuel load must last me a couple weeks or more. My wet gear is limited to socks, gloves, t-shirt, rain jacket and shorts---and these things are either donned wet in the morning or dried out during hiking. After cooking up a pot of food I usually place the pot inside my tent atop whatever is wet---fleece gloves, etc---and the heat helps to dry them out.


Good tip above about ice in the pot. That reminds me, you might need to learn how to melt snow on your stove. You have to keep water in the bottom of the pot or you could burn or even melt it. When you melt powder snow, this is harder than it sounds. By the way, I found that alcohol stoves actually work well for this, since the flame is cooler for a longer time in extreme cold. It uses too much fuel for more than a night or two, though.

I've used the pot-full-of-water trick several times but only in camps where the night time temps hit 0F or below. It's set out in the vestibule and by morning rock solid so I only have to fire up the stove and have hot tea for my water bottle soon enough.


It is also important to know that the carbon monoxide level gets much higher when you melt snow and make food, than just using the burner for heating the tent.

I never have used my stove to heat me or the inside of my tent, ever. I find the whole prospect a serious waste of fuel. BUT I do use an open candle flame atop a flat surface (like some old trail journals I'm proof reading on a trip) which is nice to have during a long winter trip to keep the in-tent fingers thawed when I'm not in the bag. The best candles I have found are 3 hour things from Manischewitz and sold in most grocery stores. They are light, burn "clean" and long, and can be used to burn your trash as a fire starter. I use an old Carmex lip balm container to hold the candles up, as below.

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2008/Trip-71/i-5ZgHqc6/0/L/Trip%2071%20068-L.jpg

[Another Kevin]

Was your -45F on a day trip actual ambients or wind chills?

Actual ambient. Seriously nasty weather. I was staying at the Ravine Lodge, hoping to snowshoe up Moosilauke via Gorge Brook or Snapper that day. Temps started a few degrees below zero, but started falling precipitously almost as soon as I started out. That -45F was still below timberline. It hit -40 in Hanover that night.

[T.S.Kobzol]

Snowshoes over skis for moving over long distaces on snow? Not a freaking chance.....


:-)


Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2

[johnnybgood]

Not owning a white gas winter stove, how effective is a pocket rocket in temps down to 20* fahrenheit ? It's not ever been a problem lighting but I don't need to discover it's vulnerablility to truely cold conditions while out on the trail.

What snacks are great for sticking in the food bag that won't become solid blocks to eat after 2 days of sub freezing weather ?

Hope everyone had a joyous day with family and also got hiking stuff to boot.

[Rasty]

Not owning a white gas winter stove, how effective is a pocket rocket in temps down to 20* fahrenheit ? It's not ever been a problem lighting but I don't need to discover it's vulnerablility to truely cold conditions while out on the trail.

What snacks are great for sticking in the food bag that won't become solid blocks to eat after 2 days of sub freezing weather ?

Hope everyone had a joyous day with family and also got hiking stuff to boot.

For me cold weather means I can bring Reeces cups instead of Snickers.

[shelterbuilder]

I think that most of us use a stove in our tent to dry things out here and there - - it is dangerous, yes and you could conceivably be asphyxiated doing this, but it is unlikely. I hope I'm not risking some liability here but I cook (and dry things out with my stove) in my vestibule regularly in the winter - - being very organized with the material and supplies around you is helpful and every minute or so, you should open the fly for some fresh air - - sometimes I just stick my head out (or under the fly) for some breaths of fresh air. I admit that knowing how to use your stove in your tent in the wind and rain is a somewhat advanced skill but serious hikers need to pick up on how to do it - - in hypothermic prone conditions it is important and I'm tired of everyone saying it is so "off-limits" when I know that they do it themselves. I've worked with various stoves in tents and vestibules for literally hundreds of nights and have never been so much as light-headed from it - - naturally, you must be on your toes.
ok everyone, start disagreeing with me

No disagreement - just a caveat: make sure that you have plenty of ventilation. I always open a low inlet and a high outlet (small, of course) to get rid of the CO gas. If you're cooking, this also helps to get rid of excess water vapor. I agree with Tipi Walter - fuel is too precious to waste on trying to heat the tent - I prefer a candle lantern (I'm too clumsy for "just a candle"...).

If you're below treeline, try this: build a SMALL fire ("in the lee" of a good windbreak) and get up close to it, open your jacket and let the inside of the jacket catch heat from the fire for a few minutes. Then close your jacket and luxuriate in all of that warmth!!! Ahhh....

[Oslohiker]

On milder terrain, most people here don't understand how easy and efficient xc skiing is.

I think you're on to something here.





where most trails below treeline are steep, narrow, winding, often icy, and treelined, definitely too difficult for my skiing ability. Some people xc ski the first few miles to the base of a climb, then hike/snowshoe/crampon up. Snowshoes are easier on White Mt trails for most people.


But I still can't see it.

I have no problems with understanding that crampons work places that skis don't.

But that snowshoes have such a broader specter I do not understand.
-Does really snowshoes work better on ice than skis whit steel edges. I can't see that.
-Are snowshoes better than skis on narrow paths? The wideness of the snowshoes would suggest that they would need wider trails than skis.
-Does snowshoes work better i step terrain? If you have steel edges, that would certainly not be true for downhill. But there would probably be areas where neither skis or snowshoes would not work. Those places sounds scary anyhow. Uphill, using ski skins, I can't see how snowshoes work better.
-Switchbacks. What is the problem? You don't have to turn in a "slalom style", but rather stop and turn the skis one by one, standing still (with skis still attached to your feet)
-Boulders. Well, I can see this one. If you see the boulders so clearly, you could probably just walk on your feet. Actually I think you probably some places have the choice to walk or ski, rather thank there exists places that are impassable for either choice. It will probably be very rough on the skis (and therefor costly), but the choice would to get there or not.

In general, I have a hard time believing that you in any conditions use less energy with snowshoes, even if you have to carry skis and extra boots over long distances on your backpack. Snowshoes are strenuous work, very strenuous. Skis are not.

My choice of weapons would be expeditions skis.

Åsnes Amundsen expedition:
http://www.asnes.com/bilder/bilder/nettbutikk/540247_main_orange_0.jpg
And their (short) ski skins that fits them:
http://www.asnes.com/bilder/bilder/nettbutikk/540225_main_oc_0.jpg

[Rasty]

null

The difference is control. I grew up skiing (Mom worked for Raichle). 95% of people are not good enough to ski down narrow trails and not get injured. For gentle rolling trails skies are going to be more efficient.

[Papa D]

We occasionally get hit with subzero temps and especially in areas known for toughness---Mt Rogers, Shining Rock, parts of the Smokies like Mt LeConte, etc, Dolly Sods in West Va, and various high elevation peaks. Anything above 5,000 feet will surely get nasty at times with some low temps and high winds with high ridge drifts. Was your -45F on a day trip actual ambients or wind chills?? I don't count wind chill figures in my calculations---only ambients.



Odd but I never use my stove and its precious white gas for drying things out in the tent or elsewhere. I use my stove strictly for cooking and nothing else since my fuel load must last me a couple weeks or more. My wet gear is limited to socks, gloves, t-shirt, rain jacket and shorts---and these things are either donned wet in the morning or dried out during hiking. After cooking up a pot of food I usually place the pot inside my tent atop whatever is wet---fleece gloves, etc---and the heat helps to dry them out.



I've used the pot-full-of-water trick several times but only in camps where the night time temps hit 0F or below. It's set out in the vestibule and by morning rock solid so I only have to fire up the stove and have hot tea for my water bottle soon enough.



I never have used my stove to heat me or the inside of my tent, ever. I find the whole prospect a serious waste of fuel. BUT I do use an open candle flame atop a flat surface (like some old trail journals I'm proof reading on a trip) which is nice to have during a long winter trip to keep the in-tent fingers thawed when I'm not in the bag. The best candles I have found are 3 hour things from Manischewitz and sold in most grocery stores. They are light, burn "clean" and long, and can be used to burn your trash as a fire starter. I use an old Carmex lip balm container to hold the candles up, as below.

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2008/Trip-71/i-5ZgHqc6/0/L/Trip%2071%20068-L.jpg

Well - - the deal with me is that I push it - if it's raining or sleeting or snowing when I wake up, I still want to go - crap gets wet packing up - it just does - I've hiked hundreds (well, actually thousands) of miles and I figure there is just no way to keep everything dry in a big rainstorm (unless you pitch your tent before it starts raining or snowing or sleeting) and stay put until it stops - - snow is of course a bit better but wet snow and sleet is super tough - - then, I agree with you that drying stuff out with your stove isn't usually necessary but try as I might, my tents get wet packing them up when it's raining - so do my gloves, and the outside of my dry-bags, my backpack exterior (pack cover or not) and so forth. Naturally, I keep my sleeping gear ultra dry in it's dry sack but if you have to get up at night, put on your rain jacket, go slog around in the sleet to pee (or pour out your pee bottle - or dig a hole and poop) and then get back in your tent, that stuff gets damp too. What's amazing is how just an ounce or two of white gas will really dry out everything in your tent pretty quick - even your clammy rain jacket - sitting in a dry tent in the rain (or snow) makes you feel accomplished and happy. oh - +1 on the pot full of water trick too.

[Sarcasm the elf]

Not owning a white gas winter stove, how effective is a pocket rocket in temps down to 20* fahrenheit ? It's not ever been a problem lighting but I don't need to discover it's vulnerablility to truely cold conditions while out on the trail.

What snacks are great for sticking in the food bag that won't become solid blocks to eat after 2 days of sub freezing weather ?

Hope everyone had a joyous day with family and also got hiking stuff to boot.

At those temps a pocket rocket won't work great, but it will work. Buy the "four season" fuel mixes and bring a good bit more fuel than you think you need. Last time we used a pocket rocket in the winter it was in the single didgets with no windscreen and it took a comically long time to boil a liter of water ( I want to say well over a half an hour, but that may have been how long it felt like.). However with temps in the mid twenties and a good windscreen it should work okay.

[Tinker]

I think you're on to something here.





But I still can't see it.

I have no problems with understanding that crampons work places that skis don't.

But that snowshoes have such a broader specter I do not understand.
-Does really snowshoes work better on ice than skis whit steel edges. I can't see that.
-Are snowshoes better than skis on narrow paths? The wideness of the snowshoes would suggest that they would need wider trails than skis.
-Does snowshoes work better i step terrain? If you have steel edges, that would certainly not be true for downhill. But there would probably be areas where neither skis or snowshoes would not work. Those places sounds scary anyhow. Uphill, using ski skins, I can't see how snowshoes work better.
-Switchbacks. What is the problem? You don't have to turn in a "slalom style", but rather stop and turn the skis one by one, standing still (with skis still attached to your feet)
-Boulders. Well, I can see this one. If you see the boulders so clearly, you could probably just walk on your feet. Actually I think you probably some places have the choice to walk or ski, rather thank there exists places that are impassable for either choice. It will probably be very rough on the skis (and therefor costly), but the choice would to get there or not.

In general, I have a hard time believing that you in any conditions use less energy with snowshoes, even if you have to carry skis and extra boots over long distances on your backpack. Snowshoes are strenuous work, very strenuous. Skis are not.

My choice of weapons would be expeditions skis.

Åsnes Amundsen expedition:
http://www.asnes.com/bilder/bilder/nettbutikk/540247_main_orange_0.jpg
And their (short) ski skins that fits them:
http://www.asnes.com/bilder/bilder/nettbutikk/540225_main_oc_0.jpg

Think of it this way: Stunted spruce trees either side of trail. Trail is about 2 feet wide - steep, too. There is no way to scrub off speed, even with steel edges. To top that off, the snow on the trail has been compressed by many passers-by and has a hump in the middle tapering off to each side. Add rocks (rock slabs and boulders) to the mix, and there's no way to safely use skis on many of the mountain trails in the Northeastern United States. Below treeline where there are roads it's easier to get about with steel edged cross country skis. Open meadows in New England are only there where humans have cleared them. Otherwise nature will take over and the thickets become nearly unpenetrable (fyi - make that impenetrable - there's no such word as unpenetrable - my mistake is your learning opportunity :)). :oYou don't need to snowplow on snowshoes. Sidestepping on X-C skis is impossible when the trail is narrower than the skis are long.

I teach a beginner cross country ski class with the Appalachian Mountain's Narragansett (RI) class each year on groomed and partially groomed trails near Mt. Monadnock, NH.

[WalksInDark]

Spent a wonderful fun winter weekend in a 3 season tent....after 3' of snow had fallen on the first night. BTW, as the tent built up on the top and sides of my tent...it pressed in....woke me...and I hit it hard from the inside of the tent causing the snow to create a mini igloo around the tent.

Urine bottle is a great idea...but be sure you can tell the urine bottle from your water bottle in low light and slightly befogged metal situations. If not, your night will become a nightmare!

Down booties: take off your hiking boots, really loosen up the laces as the boots may be frozen by the morning (even with hand warmers and wool sock toppers); wear the down booties inside the tent...sleeping bag, etc.

Ground insulation is key. I used a down air mattress and was toasty warm in below zero conditions.

Ventilation: make sure that you allow some air movement into and out of your tent. If not you may well find yourself covered in frost.

Warm hat and/or fleece/neoprene face mask. I sleep cold...so I used both of these to keep my head and face warm. Fleece "sweat" pants and vest went over my technical underwear.

Last, be sure to pull your mummy bag hood up on your head....and fasten it so it stays there even if you move around while you sleep.

Snacks, leave some high energy food choices close at hand so that you can partake if you get cold. Chocolate candy/bars warm me up more than a tepid cup of tea.

[Oslohiker]

Think of it this way: Stunted spruce trees either side of trail. Trail is about 2 feet wide - steep, too. There is no way to scrub off speed, even with steel edges. To top that off, the snow on the trail has been compressed by many passers-by and has a hump in the middle tapering off to each side. Add rocks (rock slabs and boulders) to the mix, and there's no way to safely use skis on many of the mountain trails in the Northeastern United States. Below treeline where there are roads it's easier to get about with steel edged cross country skis. Open meadows in New England are only there where humans have cleared them. Otherwise nature will take over and the thickets become nearly unpenetrable (fyi - make that impenetrable - there's no such word as unpenetrable - my mistake is your learning opportunity :)). :oYou don't need to snowplow on snowshoes. Sidestepping on X-C skis is impossible when the trail is narrower than the skis are long.

I teach a beginner cross country ski class with the Appalachian Mountain's Narragansett (RI) class each year on groomed and partially groomed trails near Mt. Monadnock, NH.

This is the best answer so far. Thank you for sharing.

I have just tried to get to the bottom of this case and that is why I have stayed with topic. I hope everybody is ok with that.

But still, based on your answer, I can see a solution in walking on your feet downhill, and skiing elsewhere. It is much easier to move on your just your feet on snow downhill than it is uphill or on flat surface. On that based I still could see skis work. (If it is downhill and not so steep you may be able to use skis anyway. As a last resort using the poles between your legs slowing you down, and scrubbing where you can).

That said, as I have earlier stated, I have never seen the AT in winter conditions (except I was denied driving to the top at Mt. Washington because of the snow). On that basis most people here should probably listen to your advise.

If I had planned to start in January and then have the possibility to hit snow in the northern states, I would test out skis in advance, in order to see if it still is possible to use that.



(PS. Thank you for the English lesson. I take all the help I can get in that area).

[Snowleopard]

Oslohiker, I think it would be very interesting to see how fast a very good skier could do a winter SOBO AT hike/ski in a good snow year. There would be large sections where the skier would go fast -- level areas and some downhills. In some places it would be a bit hard to even carry the skis because they'd keep catching in the trees. You'd have to carry a pretty heavy pack for winter camping and sleds/pulks won't work well in most places. You'd have to carry crampons. You'd need to carry snowshoes; a skier much better than I would not need the snowshoes as often as I would, but would still need them sometimes. Postholing in 6' of snow in a 100mph whiteout is dangerous and exhausting.

Here's a couple of links you might enjoy:
A discussion on a winter Presidential Range traverse on skis:
http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php/67435-Presidential-Traverse-in-Winter-on-Skis The picture
The presidential traverse goes over Mt. Washington, NH, and other high peaks in NH. The challenge and danger is the extreme weather -- for example, last night at 7pm the wind was 100 mph (161 km/hour) and the temperature was -15F (-26C). There is exposure to this weather for the most of the hike above treeline http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidential_Traverse. On this part of the trip you can't ski because the wind blows
the snow away.
18728

Here's a video of someone skiing the trail below treeline at the end of a presidential traverse. This looks like something I could ski with some difficulty if I were in practice and had the snow he did. There are parts of the trail that are impossible for me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7lMQ0H3ROk

In a good winter you might have a good chance of skiing to Pennsylvania and maybe further, and maybe some more skiing in the southern mountains, especially the Smokies. A problem that is common in the southern mountains when there is lots of snow is that you have to crawl under rhododendrons bent over by the snow. Look up Tipiwalter's posts for pictures of the south in winter. There are places that would not be safe to ski; it would be best to hike the trail first, making note of locations where you need to be careful (e.g., don't ski off a cliff that you can't see in advance).

So, there are problems with skiing the AT. Still, in the parts that can be skied you might go so fast that it makes up for the effort of carrying the skis.

[Snowleopard]

Oslohiker, I think it would be very interesting to see how fast a very good skier could do a winter SOBO AT hike/ski in a good snow year. There would be large sections where the skier would go fast -- level areas and some downhills. In some places it would be a bit hard to even carry the skis because they'd keep catching in the trees. You'd have to carry a pretty heavy pack for winter camping and sleds/pulks won't work well in most places. You'd have to carry crampons. You'd need to carry snowshoes; a skier much better than I would not need the snowshoes as often as I would, but would still need them sometimes.

Here's a couple of links you might enjoy:
A discussion on a winter Presidential Range traverse on skis:
http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php/67435-Presidential-Traverse-in-Winter-on-Skis The picture
The presidential traverse goes over Mt. Washington, NH, and other high peaks in NH. The challenge and danger is the extreme weather -- for example, last night at 7pm the wind was 100 mph (161 km/hour) and the temperature was -15F (-26C). There is exposure to this weather for the most of the hike above treeline http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidential_Traverse. On this part of the trip you can't ski because the wind blows
the snow away.
18728

Here's a video of someone skiing the trail below treeline at the end of a presidential traverse. This looks like something I could ski with some difficulty if I were in practice and had the snow he did. There are parts of the trail that are impossible for me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7lMQ0H3ROk

[Papa D]

No disagreement - just a caveat: make sure that you have plenty of ventilation. I always open a low inlet and a high outlet (small, of course) to get rid of the CO gas. If you're cooking, this also helps to get rid of excess water vapor. I agree with Tipi Walter - fuel is too precious to waste on trying to heat the tent - I prefer a candle lantern (I'm too clumsy for "just a candle"...).

If you're below treeline, try this: build a SMALL fire ("in the lee" of a good windbreak) and get up close to it, open your jacket and let the inside of the jacket catch heat from the fire for a few minutes. Then close your jacket and luxuriate in all of that warmth!!! Ahhh....

yes - this is a nice trick - I've actually built a little wood burning stove using a Fosters Beer can and it works nice to warm up the inside of a jacket. Now, as to drying out a tent, I would also rarely use the precious white gas in the actual snow for this task - - the main time I've done this is (and I seem to be in this a lot) after hiking all day in sleet, freezing rain, and wet snow - - these conditions are much harder than "just snow" - - blasting the Whisperlight for only long enough to boil a pot of water (maybe for a hot water bottle) has the duel function of drying the fly - - - and yes, opening a little inlet and clearing the CO2 is super important - - when I do this, I'm always on my toes about this.

[Snowleopard]

Oslohiker, I think it would be very interesting to see how fast a very good skier could do a winter SOBO AT hike/ski in a good snow year. There would be large sections where the skier would go fast -- level areas and some downhills. In some places it would be a bit hard to even carry the skis because they'd keep catching in the trees. You'd have to carry a pretty heavy pack for winter camping and sleds/pulks won't work well in most places. You'd have to carry crampons. You'd need to carry snowshoes; a skier much better than I would not need the snowshoes as often as I would, but would still need them sometimes.

Here's a couple of links you might enjoy:
A discussion on a winter Presidential Range traverse on skis:
http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php/67435-Presidential-Traverse-in-Winter-on-Skis The picture
The presidential traverse goes over Mt. Washington, NH, and other high peaks in NH. The challenge and danger is the extreme weather above treeline -- for example, last night on Mt. Wash. at 7pm the wind was 100 mph (161 km/hour) and the temperature was -15F (-26C). There is exposure to this weather for the most of the hike above treeline http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidential_Traverse. On this part of the trip you can't ski because the wind blows
the snow away.
18728

Here's a video of someone skiing the trail below treeline at the end of a presidential traverse. This looks like something I could ski with some difficulty if I were in practice and had the snow he did. There are parts of the trail that are impossible for me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7lMQ0H3ROk

Snow and weather conditions are highly variable.

Look up Tipiwalter's posts to see what the southern mountains are like in winter.

[Snowleopard]

Sorry for the double post.

[Rasty]

Oslohiker, I think it would be very interesting to see how fast a very good skier could do a winter SOBO AT hike/ski in a good snow year. There would be large sections where the skier would go fast -- level areas and some downhills. In some places it would be a bit hard to even carry the skis because they'd keep catching in the trees. You'd have to carry a pretty heavy pack for winter camping and sleds/pulks won't work well in most places. You'd have to carry crampons. You'd need to carry snowshoes; a skier much better than I would not need the snowshoes as often as I would, but would still need them sometimes.

Here's a couple of links you might enjoy:
A discussion on a winter Presidential Range traverse on skis:
http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php/67435-Presidential-Traverse-in-Winter-on-Skis The picture
The presidential traverse goes over Mt. Washington, NH, and other high peaks in NH. The challenge and danger is the extreme weather above treeline -- for example, last night on Mt. Wash. at 7pm the wind was 100 mph (161 km/hour) and the temperature was -15F (-26C). There is exposure to this weather for the most of the hike above treeline http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidential_Traverse. On this part of the trip you can't ski because the wind blows
the snow away.
18728

Here's a video of someone skiing the trail below treeline at the end of a presidential traverse. This looks like something I could ski with some difficulty if I were in practice and had the snow he did. There are parts of the trail that are impossible for me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7lMQ0H3ROk

Snow and weather conditions are highly variable.

Look up Tipiwalter's posts to see what the southern mountains are like in winter.

I was a really good skier at one time when I lived in NY. That video looks like a great way to get a broken branch from one of the trees stuck into your arm or leg. I'll stick to slopes that are at least as wide as my skis. I would love to ski at Tuckermans Ravine if I had the opportunity.

[Oslohiker]

Oslohiker, I think it would be very interesting to see how fast a very good skier could do a winter SOBO AT hike/ski in a good snow year. There would be large sections where the skier would go fast -- level areas and some downhills. In some places it would be a bit hard to even carry the skis because they'd keep catching in the trees. You'd have to carry a pretty heavy pack for winter camping and sleds/pulks won't work well in most places. You'd have to carry crampons. You'd need to carry snowshoes; a skier much better than I would not need the snowshoes as often as I would, but would still need them sometimes.

Here's a couple of links you might enjoy:
A discussion on a winter Presidential Range traverse on skis:
http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php/67435-Presidential-Traverse-in-Winter-on-Skis The picture
The presidential traverse goes over Mt. Washington, NH, and other high peaks in NH. The challenge and danger is the extreme weather -- for example, last night at 7pm the wind was 100 mph (161 km/hour) and the temperature was -15F (-26C). There is exposure to this weather for the most of the hike above treeline http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidential_Traverse. On this part of the trip you can't ski because the wind blows
the snow away.
18728

Here's a video of someone skiing the trail below treeline at the end of a presidential traverse. This looks like something I could ski with some difficulty if I were in practice and had the snow he did. There are parts of the trail that are impossible for me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7lMQ0H3ROk

For the conditions in the video I would easily have chosen skis. That could have been pictures form a Norwegian forrest. It looks very similar. I have skied stuff like that both on XC-skis and alpine skis... (a lot) ... even though it is probably more narrow there in reality than it looks like in the video.

I can see the challenge with carrying the skis on the backpack without hitting branches. If it is to difficult you could take the ski off and drag them behind you, holding them in the tips.

The bottom line for me (and really what my question is) is that I can't see where you would choose snowshoes over skis moving over long distances over snow (even if there would be just a little snow). In the picture I would still have chosen skis over snowshoes. Snowshoes are strenuous work. You have tried to answer that, and I am very grateful, giving me some valuable insight. But I am sorry to say that I am still not convinced, but that could be just me.

I know that the weather on Mt. Washington can be bad. I have actually been there (the weather was bad enough that I was denied access to the summit, but it could probably become much worse than so). Maybe March/April are normally better than January?

[Snowleopard]

"For the conditions in the video I would easily have chosen skis." Agreed. The above treeline picture I would use just warm boots, microspikes or crampons.

One factor is that the standard of xc skiing in Norway is probably a lot higher than the average in the USA. I hope you get the chance to hike some of the AT to see how much you consider skiable.

I skied for more than a year before I saw another person on xc skis. Then, it was a demonstration by the Norwegian women's olympic xc ski team. I still can't ski that well, but an hour of watching them taught me more than the books I was trying to learn from.

[Another Kevin]

One thing that I suspect is better in Norway than here is that in the US I see a lot of hikers postholing when they should be using snowshoes or skis. Enough of that and the trail turns to a skating rink. (But I don't know what the Norwegians do, so I'm speaking from ignorance.)

[juma]

when using a pocketrocket/jetboil stove in winter, I always pour a little water in a bowl made from the bottom of a gallon milk container (my dipper, food bowl, wash bowl, etc) and then set the gas can in that - the water keeps it warm enough to gush gas very well. The water is usually from my quart of hot water kept in my bag all nite.

[Omaha_Ace]

Good pad, hot water bottle or heated stones in a wool sock in the bag, a couple of the chemical handwarmers, and half a chocolate bar as you're tucking in. Bingo. Warm night!

[Drakken]

I have heard of people using an old license plate to set their stoves on.

[Steamers]

msr cylone stakes work well in snow and sand.... or use a stick and insert them deadman style in the snow and stomp them in place works well in wet snow. utah pow freestanding tent make a flat area to pitch on. good winter tent is a hilleberg,MSR Cyclone Tent Stakebut the best cost $$$$$$$$$$:)$$$$$$$good luck