Another Cost for Thru Hiking - NH rescue fee

[peakbagger]

The likelyhood of having to pay for the privilege of being rescued in NH has been brought back to legislature again and this time it has a lot of traction. The big change this time is the option to pay a $18 per year fee to cover getting rescued, otherwise if you are rescued you get billed the states costs including helicopters.

All sort of issues that havent been answered, like

What if you are injured and dont want to be be rescued, does the F&G leave you there to die or do you have the option to call up some friends to rescue you?

What happens if someone else call in a rescue, (mom calls F&G when junior doesnt show up at home, while junior has bedded down with a new "friend")

Who decides if the $18 covers gross incompetence? (An "AT hiker" had a high profile rescue years ago when he bought a fifth of whiskey in Gorham NH and then hiked up Moriah on the AT and ultimately had to be resucued.)

Given that the state makes millions off of tourists, its pretty counterproductive to drive them away from actvitites that the state advertises but what can I say.

[Hosaphone]

$18 for all the free helicopter rides I want for a year? Sounds like a cheap date.

Seriously though, I dunno. In theory, it doesn't seem so unreasonable, but a lot of things need to be determined ahead of time as you point out.

[StylinLP38]

Its kinda like insurance. Alot of poeple pay it and those fee's would cover the cost of one rescue. It only works if enough people pay it every year to offset the cost of so many rescue's

[Datto]

Is there Creme Brulee involved with the rescue? You can't get that brought to the huts in New Hampshire, even from the Concierges. They just roll their eyes and say under their breath, "Another thru-hiker...".


Datto

[Datto]

You would not believe the number of unprepared people I saw in The White Mountains on my AT thru-hike who were completely incoherent, ice-covered and unable to speak due to shivering. I was wearing every stitch of clothing I was carrying (gobs of clothing, multiple coats, two pairs of gloves, long-johns, the works) and I still was frozen to the bone -- the tourists I saw were in T-shirts and shorts. They had come through the same raging storm where I had been literally tossed up off my feet and deposited onto my head on the rocks several times on my way to getting out and to cover.

One of the tourists who had been told by the rangers to sit on the floor against a wall -- he was beyond his faculties when he struggled to get up and stumbled over to the rangers when I was standing there covered in ice. It took that tourist at least 90 seconds to get his repeated request understood by the ranger while I was standing there (I couldn't understand one hoot of what the guy was trying to say but it was just in a days work for the ranger). Finally it was understood -- the tourist wanted the ranger to go out into the storm and see if the ranger could find the tourist's dog who had run off in the storm.

A few hours later I would hear over the emergency radio that a hiker up near Eisenhower had broken his leg along the AT -- this was a 9:00pm. Rescue people went up "the hill" in the middle of that gawd-awful storm and got the guy down and to a hospital. I couldn't believe that anyone would have gone out in that huge of a storm, must less carry the guy down and get him to a hospital. Completely unbelievable.

The next morning I saw two other thru-hikers and had asked them -- individually and at two different times of day -- what they'd thought of that storm last night. Both thru-hikers said it was the only time during their thru-hike where they had feared for their life.

Those rangers and rescue people do not get NEAR the credit they deserve for rescuing so many tourists every year in The White Mountains.


Datto




Datto

[Old Hiker]

So, I pay my $18 and get a free helo-ride-rescue. Does the $18 cover if the helo goes down and I have to be rescued by another helo? Or does the state just refund the $18 to my widow if it's decided that the first helo went down because the helo-driver was DUI (FlyingUI??)?

Sooooo many questions. Sooooo little time. Sooooo little do I care.

[Rasty]

So, I pay my $18 and get a free helo-ride-rescue. Does the $18 cover if the helo goes down and I have to be rescued by another helo? Or does the state just refund the $18 to my widow if it's decided that the first helo went down because the helo-driver was DUI (FlyingUI??)?

Sooooo many questions. Sooooo little time. Sooooo little do I care.

It's only paid to you. They figure your wife saves money by not having you spend money hiking anymore.

[atmilkman]

I'm not understanding. Who pays and what do you get if you do? Some type of card or what? What proof do you have? Is it something that you'll carry on you?

[jeffmeh]

How about somewhere to register:
1) I take full responsibility for myself
2) No one is compelled to rescue me
3) Anyone who does attempt to rescue me, does so voluntarily, does so at his own risk, and releases me from any liability

[Datto]

I'm not understanding. Who pays and what do you get if you do?

All hikers pay and are required to have the following dangle from their backpacks. Otherwise, no rescue.


Datto

18653

[hikerboy57]

i would think that if people actually paid the fee, some would feel entitled to that rescue that he wouldnt call in otherwise.
not a good move.

[Del Q]

Tough one. I served on a SAR team, did it for the right reasons.

Two sides to this debate...............the State or whoever covers the operating costs and/or they are volunteers. Side note - SAR volunteers live for calls to duty! Those are good days - time to get out there and do your job, money is a non-issue. They are there to save and rescue people, for whatever reason, dumb or not. They are still souls that need to be saved.

Other side............there is a cost to rescue and therefore, we will bill you. If you were in really deep doo-doo and made "the call", would you pay $5,000 to live / get rescued.

My guess is that payments over time would be accepted.

[Dogwood]

I'm fairly certain, under the NH law that was LAST considered, the state or rescuing agency had to prove GROSS NEGLIGENCE by the rescued party/parties for a rescue fee to be assessed. It sounded like, at least to me, NH wasn't seeking to charge everyone a rescue fee. I'm also fairly certain determing gross neglience could be debated in a court of law IF a rescue fee was assessed. I don't know all the nuances of the CURRENTLY proposed law, how it would be implemented. or how it would be enforced, and I'm sure the law, if passed in its current form, opens the door to possible abuse by money strapped state budget legislators. BUT since I don't venture off into the outdoors in a GROSSLY NEGLIGENT way I don't have ANY issue with NH raising the severity of this issue to the point where WE MUST CAREFLLY CONSIDER HOW PREPARED WE ARE before we venture into the outdoors in HIGHLY DANGEROUS SITUATIONS or we face the possible costs of being rescued IF we are found to be negligent.

It seems to me, The White Mountain Rangers and SAR in the region have ALL TOO OFTEN had to rescue folks who shouldn't have been up there in such HIGHLY dangerous times. An increasing population venture out into these dangerous situations ill or non-prepared and it weighs heavily on budgets and other folk's lives. I guess some in the SAR and governing bodies have seen enough of this wiilful ignorant life threatening behavior; they don't want folks to be so foolish, especially at the increasing expense of the state and increasing threat to SAR and other's lives. The message seems clear to me - head up there in HIGHLY DANGEOUS and LIFE THREATENING situations, ill-prepared, acting in a grossly negligent way and don't expect a free ride down, to the morgue, or to the hospital!

[Lyle]

Well, if they want public support for any of their plans, they should use some common sense and not do things like charging the Scout a couple of years ago for an extremely expensive, and totally unnecessary rescue. The scout was heading to Mt. Washington, and walked to the vehicle under his own power, yet was charged and exorbitant price, because they could. They paid countless professional F&G personnel overtime to "Oversee" the volunteers(who were way better trained than the F&G personnel). I would bet every off-duty employee got paid big time that weekend.

Because their own helicopter was off doing some PR or Chaufer duty, they rented one from the State of Maine and charged double or triple the actual cost. This was a Scout who followed AMC employee recommendations for routing, was adequately equipped, and had substantial experience. He made a couple of bad decisions made worse by unexpected flooding and was late making it out. The State charged him for every paperclip they could possibly think of.

[moldy]

It won't hold up in court. Most won't pay the 18 bucks, most won't pay the bill. Any attempt to collect will end up in court. The state does not charge to come to your rescue in town, in the countryside, down a dirt road. Why should they charge hikers for the same service that is free elsewhere in the state. Remindes me of the Roman Senator who owned his own fire brigade who would show up at your house fire and then negotiate a price to put out the blaze. They get more out of state hikers in NH than in state hikers, how are they going to administer this thing and make out of state hikers aware? The first time someone dies on the hill and there is some vague hint that this system delayed deployment of rescue for 1 second the lawsuits will come in and we will see it in the national news. They need to think it over.

[swjohnsey]

Sounds like New Hampshire alright.

[RCBear]

Legislate, don't legislate, rescue, don't rescue.... Not 1 bit of this topic nor its outcome changes in the least my preparation for and my style of hiking or backpacking.

[Old Hiker]

If you don't pay up front, but have to be rescued later, can you have a $20 bill in your bleeding fingers as the rescuers show up? Stapled to your forehead?

[RF_ace]

Just get a SARSAT beacon and purchase the optional SAR/ MEDIVAC insurance, emergency medical transport from inaccessible areas ain't cheap

[cliffordbarnabus]

live free or die
pay $18 and live

for me, the former

[JJJ]

I say dis-band the rescue squads, sell the helicopter on eBay, and let Darwin sort it out.

[peakbagger]

I hope that it doesnt happen but today is a good example of potential darwin candidate conditions. Its a long holiday weekend, all sort of folks are up here due to the recent snowfall and the sun should be out today. The current winds on Mt Washington are 60 MPH plus predicted to get up above 100 this afternoon and 140 this evening. I expect more than a few folks will still head out this AM and use the "we will turn around if its gets worse" gambit. Unfortunately it just takes one microspike to fail or a snowshoe breaking and they are stuck. Several folks have died/seriosly injured near Haystack on the AT (Lafayette ridge), where they break treeline and decide to turn around into the wind and then cant find the trail they just climbed up. As for rescue, F&G and volunteers may attempt a rescue but even they have a protocol they follow where they wont do a rescue if the conditions are too bad. So does the $18 cover the rescue?

[Mountain Mike]

What ever happened to personal responsibility? Countless times I have turned around for numerous reasons. Even for something seemingly minor as a forgotten headlamp on a winter climb on Mt Adams where it was doubtful we would get back before sunset. Could two of us hike back to the perch with one. Maybe But risk of a slip & fall even with crampons & ice axes was more than I wanted to risk. An injury would put rescues at risk.

$18 is cheap insurance if you do need a rescue. How will that money be used? To train or provide gear to make rescuer safer? Too many people think going out with a cell phone or spot locator is an emergency plan rather than taking responsibilities for their own safety. I did my Woofer training at Pinkham & part of the course was a night rescue/evacuation with one liter case. Six people at a time carrying it with frequent changes still beat 20+ people up in just a few miles at low elevation.

I just hope if this is initiated the money is spent right & people don't think of it as a guaranteed helicopter flight out if they run out of water or get chilled because they forgot a coat when it was so nice when they started out.

[Mountain Mike]

[QUOTE=Old Hiker;1380245]If you don't pay up front, but have to be rescued later, can you have a $20 bill in your bleeding fingers as the rescuers show up? Stapled to your forehead?[/QUOTE

How many people came out to help you & haul you out? How much did it cost you? Were volunteers involved? Many SAR in the White involve volunteers that provide their own gear. Would $18 be worth the ATV ride you got out or would your prefer to pay for the hours the three people that helped haul you out & ATV rental? That was even a non threatening situation. How much is it worth if people have to risk their lives? You were prepared & it was just dumb luck you got injured. What if it was a day hiker that couldn't spend a night out?

[Wannabe Thru-Hiker]

i would think that if people actually paid the fee, some would feel entitled to that rescue that he wouldnt call in otherwise.
not a good move.
I agree with you plenty of yahoos out there who probably would pay $18 then get rescued on purpose

People like that ruin it for everybody

[Wannabe Thru-Hiker]

If you don't pay up front, but have to be rescued later, can you have a $20 bill in your bleeding fingers as the rescuers show up? Stapled to your forehead?

I dunno can you wait until a fender Bender to buy car insurance

Ya see the POINT of insurance is to buy it before and Gosh forbid ya got it

But for health insurance that's another story with Obamacare cause provisions make it impossible to be denied cause of sickness so when Obamacare takes effect wait until ya get sick

But I don't believe New Hampshire rescues work like that

[fcoulter]

Just get a SARSAT beacon and purchase the optional SAR/ MEDIVAC insurance, emergency medical transport from inaccessible areas ain't cheap

That's also the cost of $50K worth of SAR insurance from SPOT. I would think that the SAR insurance would cover the cost of the rescue, and not be geographically limited to New Hampshire.

If New Hampshire wants to get into the SAR insurance business, they'll need to lower their rates a lot.

[Del Q]

Tough one.............if you go to the emergency room and / or need an ambulance ride and have no insurance, they bill you. If you do have insurance, they bill you for what insurance does not cover. Many don't or can't pay, many work out payment plans.

When the fire dept shows up at your house or wherever, they do not bill you...............nor do the police.

Where should SAR fit into all of this?

[Another Kevin]

It's pretty predictable that this will make life considerably more difficult for the SAR volunteers. They'll have to cope with subjects waiting too long to call (and grievously complicating the task), resisting rescue, hiding out, and even assaulting rescuers - all for fear of being stuck with a ruinous bill. All the while the volunteers are out big bucks from their own pockets for gear and training, and the state uses the money on something else.

It's also pretty predictable that once a cost recovery system is in place, the courts will start finding liability for botched - or even just unsuccessful - rescues, so the volunteers will be out even more out of pocket for malpractice insurance. (Right now, they're pretty well protected because the subject isn't paying.)

But I guess it has to be, because otherwise it would have to be taxpayer funded, and taxpayers aren't going to spring for the cost of rescuing some rich playboy who goes out and does something stupid. And everyone knows that's what all hikers - or at least the hikers needing SAR - are. Or at least every newspaper editorial writer knows that taking that position sells papers.

[swjohnsey]

New Hamshires charges for everything, why not this.

[Another Kevin]

When the fire dept shows up at your house or wherever, they do not bill you.

Google for 'fire department cost recovery.' Billing the subject's insurance company for the cost of the fire brigade's services is becoming quite common. And the argument is that it isn't double taxation: your taxes pay for the cost of the fire brigade's being on standby, but the cost of having them actually out on an operation should be borne by the subjects.

If I didn't know that the OP was reporting factual news, I'd feel as if I'd been trolled. I guess it's just that my civics classes never covered the concept of fee-for-service government.

[Del Q]

Another Kevin - thanks for that info, in a way, when you are inside the walls of America, legally or not, there are certain benefits that I just guess come along with being in our great, not perfect by any means, but a great country all the same.

When the S _ _ T hits the fan and you are in need of help, be it police, fire, ambulance or SAR, I guess that I expect that I, or anyone, would reasonably expect that the service is provided..............be it billed for or not. I hike alone and like it that way, if I go down there is nobody right there to help. After assessing the situation, cell phone would be next, do I have a signal or not, is calling for help an option?

If not, hunker down, stay dry, calm and hydrated and figure out what is next.

Let say you have a broken leg and cannot kike out, would we pay $2500 or $5000 to be taken to a hospital? I would but................

In the end the States should bear the cost along with all of their other budget items, SAR is not a huge line item.

Be it complete stupidity or not, still souls in need of support/rescue.

[Old Hiker]

[QUOTE=Old Hiker;1380245]If you don't pay up front, but have to be rescued later, can you have a $20 bill in your bleeding fingers as the rescuers show up? Stapled to your forehead?

QUOTE=MountainMike:How many people came out to help you & haul you out? How much did it cost you? Were volunteers involved? Many SAR in the White involve volunteers that provide their own gear. Would $18 be worth the ATV ride you got out or would your prefer to pay for the hours the three people that helped haul you out & ATV rental? That was even a non threatening situation. How much is it worth if people have to risk their lives? You were prepared & it was just dumb luck you got injured. What if it was a day hiker that couldn't spend a night out? [/QUOTE

MM, had to think for a few minutes before typing. My response to the issue was snarky and meant to be "humorous". I just don't see how $18 is going to stop anyone from going out when not prepared or cover any type of cost at all.

There were three guys who came up. One stayed in the ambulance with me to the hospital. There was a driver and another paramedic in the ambulance as well.

How much did it cost? Legally: so far, about $400 or so. My 24 years of military service, plus TriCare Prime took care of the rest. However,morally (honor), as soon as I got home, I took $500 from my remaining funds and sent it to the volunteer rescue service. I wish it had been a LOT more. Part was a sincere thank-you for the help. I MAY have been able to hobble down to the parking lot (doubtful, but maybe), but then what? I was deeply thankful the other hikers phoned for me, that the Ranger decided to send someone up that evening instead of in the AM as I requested, and that they had the equipment.

Dumb luck, my butt. I was trying to adhere to LNT principles and walk through the mud puddle instead of around it. I had 30 meters on either side of the puddle I could have used. :rolleyes:

[Slo-go'en]

This article explains the "why" but the "how" is still pretty vage..

http://www.concordmonitor.com/home/3397246-95/rescue-costs-fee-guard

[Another Kevin]

Del Q - You and I are in violent agreement. In my younger days, I volunteered on at least a few SAR tasks, and took my turn once hauling a Stokes down a slope. (Gusty wind and low visibility - couldn't call for a helo.) I'd be seriously angry to learn that the state was lining its coffers by charging for what I did for free. I was responsible for my own gear and had to pay for my own training - I don't think at the time that the state would even insure against accidents happening to the rescuers. If I heard that they were charging for me, I'd have told them, "fine, go find someone you can pay to do the job. I'll do for a sense of responsibility what you won't find anyone to do for money."

Of course the libertarians would hammer me as leeching off the taxpayer for taking a tax writeoff on "contributions in kind" - I claimed my gas money and lost/damaged/consumed gear that way. Uncle wouldn't let me write off the tuition on the training classes. So I got back in my tax refund maybe 10% of what I was out of pocket. Oh yeah, and once I got a cup of bad coffee and an even worse sandwich from a support wagon at a ranger station. But I think that the Red Cross paid for that.

But knowing that I helped one guy with a broken ankle and incipient hypothermia get down off the mountain was worth it.

What I don't get is how vitriolic the people on the other side of the argument get. They sound almost gleeful when they blame the victim. Are they all schoolyard bullies, grown up?

[Del Q]

AK, I think that we are in agreement, I too served on a SAR team, bought all of my own gear, paid for gas/food, etc while training and out on searches. Did it for the right reason, if I got called right now I would be out the door ASAP as would you............and yes, the occasional cup of coffee or snacks were always super appreciated.

Ditto on the taxes, took my legitimate deductions.

Be it an experienced outdoorsman or a fool who goes out when/where they should not be, unprepared, they are still people who are in trouble who need help. Regardless of the financial situation of any given State, there are not enough rescues and billable opportunities to make a sliver of a dent in their budgets. Most SAR is volunteer, in many places it is a paid position like police, etc.

I think that we are on the same page?????????

[Another Kevin]

AK, I think that we are in agreement, I too served on a SAR team, bought all of my own gear, paid for gas/food, etc while training and out on searches. Did it for the right reason, if I got called right now I would be out the door ASAP as would you.
...
I think that we are on the same page?????????

Yup. Except that I wouldn't be right out the door nowadays. I'm not current with training nor in the physical condition to handle it. It's a young man's game. I'd be a liability to the team, and I'm man enough to recognize that. I'd stay home and pray. That's important, too.

[peakbagger]

I hope that it doesnt happen but today is a good example of potential darwin candidate conditions. Its a long holiday weekend, all sort of folks are up here due to the recent snowfall and the sun should be out today. The current winds on Mt Washington are 60 MPH plus predicted to get up above 100 this afternoon and 140 this evening. I expect more than a few folks will still head out this AM and use the "we will turn around if its gets worse" gambit. Unfortunately it just takes one microspike to fail or a snowshoe breaking and they are stuck. Several folks have died/seriosly injured near Haystack on the AT (Lafayette ridge), where they break treeline and decide to turn around into the wind and then cant find the trail they just climbed up. As for rescue, F&G and volunteers may attempt a rescue but even they have a protocol they follow where they wont do a rescue if the conditions are too bad. So does the $18 cover the rescue?

Well it did happen, luckilly ended well, a couple of canadians got to spend the night On lafayette in miserable conditions and the NH F&G folks had to do a search and rescue.

[Slo-go'en]

Well it did happen, luckilly ended well, a couple of canadians got to spend the night On lafayette in miserable conditions and the NH F&G folks had to do a search and rescue.

It was brutal up above tree line the last few days. New Years eve it was white out conditions and when it cleared New Years day the wind was insane. I stuck my head up above tree line for about 10 minutes before turning around and I was still on the sheltered side of Lowes Path, just above Gray Knob. Wind chill was off the bottom of the chart. For the most part, crampons were required, but you could fall into a snow drift up to your waist easy enough in the crumholes. Easy to get into trouble under those conditions.

[k2basecamp]

NH has to do something. Remember, no sales tax in NH. But seriously there has been just lots and lots of foolish people who have used their cell phones to get "rescued" who were ill-repared or just idiots. Many have just been caught in the dark without a headlamp because they started up franconia ridge at 3 PM or didn't want to spend a cold wet night until they could hike out the next morning.

You have to do something to send a message that you need to be prepared and if you're not then if you call for the txi to come get you , you will pay for the fare.

[Miner]

I'd rather pay $18/year for the AMC to actually build safe trail rather then, in the words of one of their members I talked to, being proud at how difficult the trail in their section is.

[Another Kevin]

NH has to do something. Remember, no sales tax in NH. But seriously there has been just lots and lots of foolish people who have used their cell phones to get "rescued" who were ill-repared or just idiots. Many have just been caught in the dark without a headlamp because they started up franconia ridge at 3 PM or didn't want to spend a cold wet night until they could hike out the next morning.

A wonderful talking point. It's a pity that the stats don't bear it out. The stupid people you talk about get all the press, but the vast majority of SAR tasks come about because well-equipped and well-prepared people have the bad luck to take a misstep, fall, and break something, or else have an otherwise-unrelated medical emergency in the backcountry (heart attacks, strokes, hot appendices, and so on). And those are the people who will be hit with monstrous bills under NH's "negligent hiker" standard, which judges with 20/20 hindsight - if you got hurt, you must have been negligently going beyond your capabilities.

Note that NH has had a "charge-for-rescue" law already, but the previous standard was "recklessness." Surely recklessness would cover the cases you mention, but the law got changed because a "recklessness" standard wasn't bringing in enough money, simply because the cases you talk about are so few.

[Del Q]

Forgetting this thread for a moment, my section hike has me completing Damascus VA to Franconia Notch thus far...........Spring 2013 / TN - NC,

Fall hike 2013, Franconia to Maine............guess I will bring some LNT super-glue to keep me grounded.

I am stubborn, currently 230lbs + pack weight, are there really winds that will drop me to my knee's?

Where do I send my check for the sure to happen, pending rescue above the tree line in NH?

Side note, hope that the bill is not too high, could impact my annual ATC donation!

[peakbagger]

To answer Del Qs I expect his rhetorical question, heck yes there are winds year round on the ridgelines in the whites that will drop you to your knees and push you over a cliff when you are on the ground. With weight comes surface area so a heavy person is just as likely to get blown over. The Mt Washington Observatory usually has few good videos on youtube, of folks playing around on the deck of the Obs during hihg winds.

One thing you learn is that most folks greatly overestimate the actual wind velocity they are actually facing as the wind profile between the ground and up were the wind meter is can be a quite steep.

[fcoulter]

When the fire dept shows up at your house or wherever, they do not bill you...............nor do the police.

Here in the Florida county I work for, when the Fire Department sends an ambulance and you're given transport, you are billed. Most of the cost recovery comes from insurance or the federal government.

[swjohnsey]

We oughta charge folks from New Hampshire every time they leave their state. Maine, too.

[Slo-go'en]

Strange that it is rarely someone who lives in NH that has to be rescued. Mostly it's people from "away" who get themselfs in trouble...