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Hairbear
01-02-2013, 07:54
here lately there has been a rise in negative activity on this site.trolling has eroded at the quality of info i find here.the mods have a nightmare trying to deal with this im sure.this problem exists because we enable them as viewers,and members.i would like to take a pledge to no longer involve myself in responding to such threads.anyone care to add there name to the trolling boycot.lets take back the power to the positive.

trapper
01-02-2013, 08:14
i 2nd your motion and take the pledge

HikerMom58
01-02-2013, 08:23
I will join you Hairbear. I don't know if posters are trollers or not, at first. I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. Innocent until proven guilty.
The obvious spammers are easy to spot but the others? Not so much. I think the good thing that has come out of this whole troll experience is that on some of the more highly emotionally charged topics-we can agree to disagree without being mean-spirited about it. Maybe even laugh about it. :)

Thirsty DPD
01-02-2013, 08:24
+++Agree, right hand up & sworn.

ChuckBrown
01-02-2013, 08:33
I agree, I left this site, years ago because of similar activity.Back then I was registered under my trail name . I actually asked the folks who ran the site to just delete me, I was so fed up with the crap, I came back recently, hoping it had changed. WB is a great place for info on LDH, even for someone who has thousand of miles of experience. One thing would be dont comment on a subject that has been mentioned a hundred times before, and has proven to be controversial.

Furlough
01-02-2013, 09:04
Yep. responding to the trolls just enables them. Just like responding to some of the non-troll WB members troll-like rants enables them. I agree with CB above, read but refrain from responding just for the sake of responding, or thread count number building.

Furlough

coach lou
01-02-2013, 09:20
I'm not really sure I see the big issue here. I see the threads page like the ignore button. I see a dog thread, I don't click on it. I see a gun thread I don't click on it. I see a PCT thread I don't click on it. Every day there is 90 odd threads going on. If you see something that interests you join the conversation. It has been said many times that after the first page or so, what more can be said. Folks, we are talking about walking in the woods and boiling water. I've checked out some of these other hiking sites. I feel ours it the most COMPLETE. Do the mods get a little heavy, at times it seems that way, but they have a job to do for the good of EVERYBODY.........and the Cafe'....is in the Humor Forum, all are welcome or don't click on it. HYOH:sun

hikerboy57
01-02-2013, 09:26
unfortunaterly some of the threads started by the "trolls" led to some civil discussions. when it kept switching back to "outing the troll" it lost relevance and was shut down.just dont feed the troll, but if the question leads to a valid discussion, we can keep the thread alive, cant we?if it leads to a civil discourse, who cares whether it was started by a "troll"or not?

Cookerhiker
01-02-2013, 09:52
I look at it this way: on any given day when I log into WB and go to "Today's Posts" as my first stop, there are 3-4 pages of threads which have had activity in the last 24 hours. That's roughly (unscientific-but-realistic) average of 80 threads. Perhaps 2-3 at most are negative, controversial bitching and moaning whereas the overwhelming majority are straighforward (not necessarily Straightforward;)) about hiking issues. Most seem to involve gear.

So despite the occasional aberrations, WB is a superb site with lots of good info for those seeking answers & advice. The glass isn't half-full, it's 90% full.

Astro
01-02-2013, 10:20
I look at it this way: on any given day when I log into WB and go to "Today's Posts" as my first stop, there are 3-4 pages of threads which have had activity in the last 24 hours. That's roughly (unscientific-but-realistic) average of 80 threads. Perhaps 2-3 at most are negative, controversial bitching and moaning whereas the overwhelming majority are straighforward (not necessarily Straightforward;)) about hiking issues. Most seem to involve gear.

So despite the occasional aberrations, WB is a superb site with lots of good info for those seeking answers & advice. The glass isn't half-full, it's 90% full.

Cookerhiker, I like the 90% glass full analogy. I personally choose to enjoy the 90% and try to ignore the other 10%. While I wish the 10% was not there, I am not going to spend time worrying about. And as HB says sometimes a thread started by a troll for negative purposes, may still generate some positive discussion. I agree WB is great place to be, otherwise why would we keep coming back?

gizzy bear
01-02-2013, 10:47
i think WB is a very cool place for AT/backpacking/hiking/camping/etc... information...i see nothing wrong with discussions...everyone is different...i have to agree with a previous poster, that some people can be VERY sensitive and quite the bore, if you ask me... if you get so butthurt that everyone doesn't see things the way you do...these types of websites probably aren't for you... and i also agree that each person on here has the option to stay away from threads that don't interest them (that's pretty simple).... i can tell you that when the mods become babysitters....it will kill a website.. most people here are adults and fun and information can live together in harmony [insert everyone holding hands and singing i'd like to buy the world a coke]

gizzy bear
01-02-2013, 10:49
i think wb is a very cool place for at/backpacking/hiking/camping/etc... Information...i see nothing wrong with discussions...everyone is different...i have to agree with a previous poster, that some people can be very sensitive and quite the bore, if you ask me... If you get so butthurt that everyone doesn't see things the way you do...these types of websites probably aren't for you... And i also agree that each person on here has the option to stay away from threads that don't interest them (that's pretty simple).... I can tell you that when the mods become babysitters....it will kill a website.. Most people here are adults and fun and information can live together in harmony [insert everyone holding hands and singing i'd like to buy the world a coke]

look mom!!! No commas :d

gizzy bear
01-02-2013, 10:49
look mom!!! No commas :d <------ not sure what that is...

Astro
01-02-2013, 10:58
Reminds me of Donham's First Law of Censorship: nothing should be censored, but what I peronsonally find offensive. The problem is that everyone finds different things offensive, and therefore the controversy

HikerMom58
01-02-2013, 11:24
look mom!!! No commas :d

You're silly.... That's why we like you so much- grizzly bear ;)

gizzy bear
01-02-2013, 11:28
You're silly.... That's why we like you so much- grizzly bear ;)

thanks HM :D i don't take too much serious :P

prain4u
01-02-2013, 11:30
I'm not really sure I see the big issue here. I see the threads page like the ignore button. I see a dog thread, I don't click on it. I see a gun thread I don't click on it. I see a PCT thread I don't click on it. Every day there is 90 odd threads going on. If you see something that interests you join the conversation. It has been said many times that after the first page or so, what more can be said. Folks, we are talking about walking in the woods and boiling water. I've checked out some of these other hiking sites. I feel ours it the most COMPLETE. Do the mods get a little heavy, at times it seems that way, but they have a job to do for the good of EVERYBODY.........and the Cafe'....is in the Humor Forum, all are welcome or don't click on it. HYOH:sun


I agree---I don't see the issue. I merely ignore those threads (and topics) which don't interest me. If specific comments offend me, I either ignore them--or I respond--whichever seems most appropriate in that particular circumstance.

Is there some INTENTIONAL trolling on WhitrBlaze? Probably. However, does good information and good discussion ultimately come from it---usually. Personally, such threads are often among my favorite ones to read.

Is there much UNINTENTIONAL "trolling". You bet. Many of my own posts are probably among them. I personally like seeing threads where people have sharp disagreements--and where people have lively debate / discussions. I find such threads to be MUCH more beneficial than threads where everyone agrees and gives similar answers.

Personally, I am not afraid to give an opinion that is not popular--because I think people benefit from seeing a wide range of opinions. (As a online community, we are very fond of typing the letters "HYOH"--but as a community we can also be very uncomfortable--or angry--when people dare to give contrary opinions).

I think what is viewed as "controversial" and "trolling" is a very individualized matter. What some people believe is a great discussion and informative discussion--others will view as "controversial" and "trolling. At the end of the day, I think some people (by their nature) are simply more "comfortable" with conflict, controversy, and disagreement that other people. On WhiteBlaze, we have some people who are very uncomfortable with conflict and controversy ---and others who are energized by it. Therein, lies the "trolling" controversy.

prain4u
01-02-2013, 11:44
Allow me to make the following point AS AN ILLUSTRATION--and not as an attack or complaint:

I PERSONALLY (HYOH) would put the current thread in the "trolling" category. I view it as needlessly controversial and a "lightening rod" that will attract needless controversy and needless division within the WhiteBlaze Community.

HOWEVER, I am equally convinced that the Original Poster (and the supporters of the OP's views) really believe that this thread is very beneficial and it is an effort to heal and build up the WhiteBlaze Community. (Unless they happen to be intentional trolls--lol).

On WhiteBlaze, we are a diverse collection of people. We have a diverse set of opinions regarding a wide range of topics. We also have VERY diverse ideas regarding what is a good (and beneficial) thread and what is not.

Ain't life grand!

Tipi Walter
01-02-2013, 11:53
.. i can tell you that when the mods become babysitters....it will kill a website..

You got that right. The babysitters were quite active the last couple days.


I agree---I don't see the issue. I merely ignore those threads (and topics) which don't interest me. If specific comments offend me, I either ignore them--or I respond--whichever seems most appropriate in that particular circumstance.

Is there some INTENTIONAL trolling on WhitrBlaze? Probably. However, does good information and good discussion ultimately come from it---usually. Personally, such threads are often among my favorite ones to read.

Is there much UNINTENTIONAL "trolling". You bet. Many of my own posts are probably among them. I personally like seeing threads where people have sharp disagreements--and where people have lively debate / discussions. I find such threads to be MUCH more beneficial than threads where everyone agrees and gives similar answers.

Personally, I am not afraid to give an opinion that is not popular--because I think people benefit from seeing a wide range of opinions. (As a online community, we are very fond of typing the letters "HYOH"--but as a community we can also be very uncomfortable--or angry--when people dare to give contrary opinions).

I think what is viewed as "controversial" and "trolling" is a very individualized matter. What some people believe is a great discussion and informative discussion--others will view as "controversial" and "trolling. At the end of the day, I think some people (by their nature) are simply more "comfortable" with conflict, controversy, and disagreement that other people. On WhiteBlaze, we have some people who are very uncomfortable with conflict and controversy ---and others who are energized by it. Therein, lies the "trolling" controversy.

Very good post. I agree and don't see the issue. According to some Whiteblazers, any disagreement qualifies as trolling even though it's unintentional as you say. When mods get uncomfortable with conflict and controversy, well, they could kill a site more than trolling in my opinion. Even this comment might prove offensive to some and therefore possibly stopped blocked and locked.

Lone Wolf
01-02-2013, 11:57
much ado over nothin'. ebb and flow

HikerMom58
01-02-2013, 12:06
Reminds me of Donham's First Law of Censorship: nothing should be censored, but what I peronsonally find offensive. The problem is that everyone finds different things offensive, and therefore the controversy

Yes sir, I'm offended when people are offended by what I didn't intend to be offensive, at all.

I think it would be hard to be a mod. They can't go around "putting out fires" all day & night but yet they can't loose control of a site that is clearly "out of control".
Some people seem to push the envelop on "sounding" critical or judgmental and then slam someone for "taking it the wrong way", if they have a strong reaction to the perceived "dig"...Oh boy!!!
Weall know how to get along at this stage in our lives. But, that can get "boring". We all love a lil drama every now and then... be honest! ;) I just cringe at the ones that are being "crucified", at times.
It even happens to the trolls but they enjoy it... that's the difference. They say "bring it on". I think that's what Hairbear wants us to pledge not to do with them...we won't "bring it" for them to enjoy.

Alligator
01-02-2013, 12:18
The membership was intentionally trolled by a person running several accounts over a day or so. This occurred during a holiday when the volunteer moderation team had other events, activities, and or down time occupying their free time. It will happen from time to time.

One shouldn't feed bears and one shouldn't feed the trolls. To that end, we are not going to leave open threads started by trolls as this just reinforces bad behavior. It creates more work for us when you feed them.

HikerMom58
01-02-2013, 12:19
I think what is viewed as "controversial" and "trolling" is a very individualized matter. What some people believe is a great discussion and informative discussion--others will view as "controversial" and "trolling. At the end of the day, I think some people (by their nature) are simply more "comfortable" with conflict, controversy, and disagreement that other people. On WhiteBlaze, we have some people who are very uncomfortable with conflict and controversy ---and others who are energized by it. Therein, lies the "trolling" controversy.


Ohh... sorry for commenting so much on this thread but but Prain4you just hit on something right there ^ ^.... yeah - you "nailed that one". I agree!!

Deadeye
01-02-2013, 12:19
It's difficult for even the bet writers to convey precisely what they mean, especially if they're trying to be sarcastic or jocular. The reader can't see the person and get all of the non-verbal signals that go along with personal communication. After offending a few people myself, I decided to to my best to only post when I had particular insoght to offer,( i.e. when someone asks about X product or local trail conditions) or if someone is asking for opinions (a review of a gear list). I try to avoid the rest... most of the time I manage to do that, but we shouldn't feel that we have to censor ourselves, just use common sense (for those that have it) and decorum.

Papa D
01-02-2013, 12:29
unfortunaterly some of the threads started by the "trolls" led to some civil discussions. when it kept switching back to "outing the troll" it lost relevance and was shut down.just dont feed the troll, but if the question leads to a valid discussion, we can keep the thread alive, cant we?if it leads to a civil discourse, who cares whether it was started by a "troll"or not?

H.B. I tend to agree with you but there is civil discussion on most threads and the recently started "troll threads" , the OP's original question was usually pretty weak (deodorant, for example) or could be found by just jumping back in on a old thread (about guns, for example).

I think my pledge will be this. When I approach a new thread, I will carefully read the original post. If I don't recognize the poster, I will go to his or her profile. If the person has been a WB member for only one or two days and the post seems on the controversial side, I think I will skip it (other than perhaps just outing the Troll - - which I agree has been fun).

I think almost any legitimate new member responds to existing threads or poses very benign questions (i.e., I'm new here and would like some information on getting a shuttle from _____, etc.).

TheYoungOne
01-02-2013, 12:31
The membership was intentionally trolled by a person running several accounts over a day or so. This occurred during a holiday when the volunteer moderation team had other events, activities, and or down time occupying their free time. It will happen from time to time.

One shouldn't feed bears and one shouldn't feed the trolls. To that end, we are not going to leave open threads started by trolls as this just reinforces bad behavior. It creates more work for us when you feed them.

I did find it odd that one of the posters that started the trolling fuss was only a WB member for a day or two. Reminded me of someone who was probably young and bored, who signed up and just picked hot button topics to get people worked up.

Otherwise I like everyone here, and I don't mind a few disagreements and heated discussions every once in a while.

Drybones
01-02-2013, 12:46
I'm not really sure I see the big issue here. I see the threads page like the ignore button. I see a dog thread, I don't click on it. I see a gun thread I don't click on it. I see a PCT thread I don't click on it. Every day there is 90 odd threads going on. If you see something that interests you join the conversation. It has been said many times that after the first page or so, what more can be said. Folks, we are talking about walking in the woods and boiling water. I've checked out some of these other hiking sites. I feel ours it the most COMPLETE. Do the mods get a little heavy, at times it seems that way, but they have a job to do for the good of EVERYBODY.........and the Cafe'....is in the Humor Forum, all are welcome or don't click on it. HYOH:sun

I agree.......................

Old Hiker
01-02-2013, 12:56
+1 PapaD on post #25. I like to read some of the "troll" threads. Sometimes, I even get nuggets of wisdom.

prain4u
01-02-2013, 13:13
The membership was intentionally trolled by a person running several accounts over a day or so. This occurred during a holiday when the volunteer moderation team had other events, activities, and or down time occupying their free time. It will happen from time to time.

One shouldn't feed bears and one shouldn't feed the trolls. To that end, we are not going to leave open threads started by trolls as this just reinforces bad behavior. It creates more work for us when you feed them.

Alligator, I must once again (RESPECTFULLY) disagree with your perspective on this matter.

I don't want to debate you back and forth about this subject. I just want express my disagreement with your perspective and express my disagreement with your philosophy of moderating--and then move on. (Agree to disagree agreeably). I also wish to note, that I appreciate you doing the thankless job of moderating and I appreciate the effort that you put into it. I just VERY sharply disagree with your moderating philosophy.

I say, let the people troll. I could care less if someone has six online identities and then has outrageous debates with themselves. It makes no difference to me whether it is one person with 12 identities who is posting or 12 people with separate identities who are posting. I also don't care if people argue frequently and have intense online discussions. Frankly, I think such things HELP the community and do not hurt it.

If I were a Moderator (or an owner of the site), about the only posts that I would edit or delete--are those which made vicious personal attacks or those which contained slanderous or libelous comments. Otherwise, I would let the discussion flow. (However, I would maybe have a sub-forum to move the questionable threads too--but I wouldn't close them or delete them).

If there were WhiteBlaze members who had problems with controversial threads, I wouldn't reinforce THEIR "bad" behavior nor would I feed that particular bear (to paraphrase your analogy) by deleting the allegedly offensive posts or by closing controversial threads that such people found offensive). I would tell them to simply ignore the controversial posts and ignore the threads which offended them. I would refuse to be a babysitter or censor.

Dealing with "trolling" isn't more work for moderators--unless the moderators chose to get involved. I have been a parent, a long-time mayor, and 30 year pastor. In all of those roles, people have frequently come to me and wanted me to "moderate" other people's behavior. They soon leave me alone if I consistently refuse to get involved. if I were a moderator, I would refuse to get involved unless the online behavior was extremely outrageous.

It is my opinion that excessive moderating will do more harm to this site than "trolling" ever will.

(Anyone care to bet that this post gets deleted or this thread gets shut down?)

Alligator
01-02-2013, 13:47
A troll is someone who is deceptively using you for their personal pleasure. We are not going to leave such an individual to run amuck in the forum. We don't want the membership used like that. It's bad for the site. It is explicitly prohibited in the user agreement for good reason. I pledge to not let you guys get used.

Respectful is not you throwing a jab at the end of your post there either prain4u. It's clear we don't agree, we will not be agreeing on it anytime soon so perhaps just agree to disagree and then actually drop it. That's usually what happens when that statement is made.

RCBear
01-02-2013, 14:48
I would have to agree with the moderator here. it's easy enough i guess to just pass the thread in question by, but as we saw, left unchecked, the poster in question can clutter things up pretty badly with nonsense. regardless of whether there are offshoot positive discussion flow after the fact, is not enough in my opinion to warrant letting bottom feeders dictate how the boards are run. i think the vast majority here like to have fun, enjoy some meaningful controversy and lighthearted jabbing as long as we gain from it.

someone just new to this site that posts the way that guy did does nothing but threaten to push others that contribute quality info away. it's no different than the brand new employee that doesn't know that when it's best to take the cotton out of his ears and put it in his mouth early on. If you come here under false pretense, then in my opinion, anything that comes from your keyboard lacks all credibility by definition. My .02

Dogwood
01-02-2013, 14:58
here lately there has been a rise in negative activity on this site.trolling has eroded at the quality of info i find here.the mods have a nightmare trying to deal with this im sure.this problem exists because we enable them as viewers,and members.i would like to take a pledge to no longer involve myself in responding to such threads.anyone care to add there name to the trolling boycot.lets take back the power to the positive.

Well, it's good to see I'm not the only one noticing the situation. You make good pts Hairbear! And I do realize, although sometimes I have to be reminded of it, DON"T FEED THE TROLLS DON"T FEED THE TROLLS DON"T FEED THE TROLLS DON"T FEED THE TROLLS DON"T FEED THE TROLLS!

gizzy bear
01-02-2013, 15:06
I would have to agree with the moderator here. it's easy enough i guess to just pass the thread in question by, but as we saw, left unchecked, the poster in question can clutter things up pretty badly with nonsense. regardless of whether there are offshoot positive discussion flow after the fact, is not enough in my opinion to warrant letting bottom feeders dictate how the boards are run. i think the vast majority here like to have fun, enjoy some meaningful controversy and lighthearted jabbing as long as we gain from it.

someone just new to this site that posts the way that guy did does nothing but threaten to push others that contribute quality info away. it's no different than the brand new employee that doesn't know that when it's best to take the cotton out of his ears and put it in his mouth early on. If you come here under false pretense, then in my opinion, anything that comes from your keyboard lacks all credibility by definition. My .02

i need to speak with you in private please....now! uhh hummm.... pay no mind to the man behind the curtain...he will be back to get his 2 cents back shortly... ;)

Feral Bill
01-02-2013, 15:10
[QUOTE=).... i can tell you that when the mods become babysitters....it will kill a website..[/QUOTE]

No moderation will kill a site just as dead. Anyone remember rec.backcountry?

gizzy bear
01-02-2013, 15:54
No moderation will kill a site just as dead. Anyone remember rec.backcountry?

i totally agree...it just needs to be done in moderation...pun intended :D

Don H
01-02-2013, 16:11
Can't we just have a Troll Forum and move those threads there? Then if you want to feed the trolls feel free, if not, don't visit the forum.

hikerboy57
01-02-2013, 16:16
Can't we just have a Troll Forum and move those threads there? Then if you want to feed the trolls feel free, if not, don't visit the forum.
then you are still rewarding trolling

Dogwood
01-02-2013, 16:25
THX Gator. Well said.

RCBear
01-02-2013, 16:30
www.trollforumsfortrolls.com

I hear it was catching on well until some non trolls joined and started posting legitimate threads. The mods over there are pretty freaked out about how to handle it apparently. There is also cause for concern because each of those people apparently have only 1 IP address.

Drybones
01-02-2013, 16:32
The threads in question have been a help to me and I'm sure others new to the site, I didn't know what a troll was and didn't want to appear ignorant by asking...now I have been enligtened...don't feel much smarter though.

Train Wreck
01-02-2013, 16:37
There may be some occasional wheat amongst the chaff in a trolling thread, but it generally tends to get lost in all the accompanying garbage more often than not. I think the mods actually do a pretty decent job keeping the forums running as well as they do.

Rasty
01-02-2013, 16:39
So feeding Trolls is Bad? OK lesson learned. Can we play with them if we promise not to bring them home?

hikerboy57
01-02-2013, 16:42
is it possible to reopen a discussion if it was closed down because it was begin by a troll?

Drybones
01-02-2013, 16:44
So feeding Trolls is Bad? OK lesson learned. Can we play with them if we promise not to bring them home?

Keep'um on a leash...with choke collar.

gizzy bear
01-02-2013, 16:56
www.trollforumsfortrolls.com

I hear it was catching on well until some non trolls joined and started posting legitimate threads. The mods over there are pretty freaked out about how to handle it apparently. There is also cause for concern because each of those people apparently have only 1 IP address.

LMAO!!! damn the non trolls!!! they are ALWAYS posting pertinent crap!! ugh!!!!

Alligator
01-02-2013, 16:59
is it possible to reopen a discussion if it was closed down because it was begin by a troll?If it was not closed previously elsewhere, no problem. That is, the troll didn't find a locked a thread and repost the same topic.

It may not be particularly wise though. In some cases, you would be suckering yourselves. They'd probably get off even more on it by getting you to do for them what they wanted to do to you.

Alligator
01-02-2013, 17:11
Some of you are looking to hijack the thread and make it about the moderation team. If you notice the thread topic is actually about what the membership can do if they suspect a troll. It's not about the moderation team it's about what the members can do in a trolling situation. The moderation response has already been detailed so please stay on topic and not use the thread to soap box past moderation activity (TOS #3). Thanks!

It's clear that sometimes members are new to forum boards and aren't familiar with what a troll is, maybe never heard of it before, or are just kind people looking to help out. It helps for members to be aware that trolling happens and that maybe the thread is perhaps not at all genuine. If you get sucked up into it oh well, it happens. However, when you are aware of it, common advice is to not feed the troll. There are some other tactics as well but check the web to get a better a idea as to what to try.

Maddoxsjohnston
01-02-2013, 17:20
Alligator, is there any way you can tell if all these trolls are the same person? And is there anyway you can ban their IP address to prevent future troll/dummy accounts?

Papa D
01-02-2013, 17:25
not to dwell on the moderators but we all need to remember that they volunteer so this site can be a good and meaningful place - - for every one instance of possible "heavy handedness" there are probably a dozen instances of actions that have a cumulative effect of "not ruining our own site" (see, I got back on topic).

playing around with Trolls is exactly like feeding a bear - - it's cool to watch bears and cool to see them and folks used to drive up the blue ridge parkway with raw meat just to feed them and have them swarm around (and I bet it was super fun for those people just like playing with trolls this weekend was fun for us - - but bear feeding ended up getting a lot of bears killed for just being bears and Troll feeding will hurt us as well

Alligator
01-02-2013, 17:31
Alligator, is there any way you can tell if all these trolls are the same person? And is there anyway you can ban their IP address to prevent future troll/dummy accounts?I don't like to go into too many details about tactics. We have several approaches to handle it none are perfect. It became evident that this time the troll had several accounts. I don't usually even mention it but there were several threads started, several people figured it out, and I was going to have to close a few threads as a result. So I gave everyone a heads up and unfortunately there was collateral damage in that some people were taking the threads seriously. Sorry to those interested in having the actual discussion.

Wise Old Owl
01-02-2013, 17:55
I think it would be hard to be a mod. .

Yes it is.


Can't we just have a Troll Forum and move those threads there? Then if you want to feed the trolls feel free, if not, don't visit the forum.

I am member of several forums - yes one forum moves them to an area and poke fun back ... but the starter post is locked out... very cool


Alligator, I must once again (RESPECTFULLY) disagree with your perspective on this matter.

I don't want to debate you back and forth about this subject. I just want express my disagreement with your perspective and express my disagreement with your philosophy of moderating--and then move on. (Agree to disagree agreeably). I also wish to note, that I appreciate you doing the thankless job of moderating and I appreciate the effort that you put into it. I just VERY sharply disagree with your moderating philosophy.

I say, let the people troll. I could care less if someone has six online identities and then has outrageous debates with themselves. It makes no difference to me whether it is one person with 12 identities who is posting or 12 people with separate identities who are posting. I also don't care if people argue frequently and have intense online discussions. Frankly, I think such things HELP the community and do not hurt it.

He has access to software that identifies someone that does that... it is part of Vbulletin.

If I were a Moderator (or an owner of the site), about the only posts that I would edit or delete--are those which made vicious personal attacks or those which contained slanderous or libelous comments. Otherwise, I would let the discussion flow. (However, I would maybe have a sub-forum to move the questionable threads too--but I wouldn't close them or delete them).

He does that.

If there were WhiteBlaze members who had problems with controversial threads, I wouldn't reinforce THEIR "bad" behavior nor would I feed that particular bear (to paraphrase your analogy) by deleting the allegedly offensive posts or by closing controversial threads that such people found offensive). I would tell them to simply ignore the controversial posts and ignore the threads which offended them. I would refuse to be a babysitter or censor.

Dealing with "trolling" isn't more work for moderators--unless the moderators chose to get involved. I have been a parent, a long-time mayor, and 30 year pastor. In all of those roles, people have frequently come to me and wanted me to "moderate" other people's behavior. They soon leave me alone if I consistently refuse to get involved. if I were a moderator, I would refuse to get involved unless the online behavior was extremely outrageous.

Moderating is similar but different - its more of a cautionary tale. Do we really need to see that on WB?

It is my opinion that excessive moderating will do more harm to this site than "trolling" ever will.(1)

(Anyone care to bet that this post gets deleted or this thread gets shut down?)

(1) Prain4u - As someone who has been here for a long time, and has had minor differences with Alligator, I would have agreed with you a while back... but I am on several forums and have left the forums that are not moderated at all, and lost interest in forums that are far more moderated than here. I think Alligator and his crew are doing a good job, I may joke about it and blow up once in a while - but it takes time. We are loosing a few people along this trail - but are you willing to take the journey?

max patch
01-02-2013, 18:51
Alligator, I must once again (RESPECTFULLY) disagree with your perspective on this matter.

Doesn't matter if you agree or disagree. It is what it is. Accept it or move on.

A bit of history. This site was actually started in response to a popular site that many felt was overly moderated. This site stated it believed in "freedom of speech" and would not be moderated in any way shape or form. Zip. Zilch. Nada. It didn't work. Much of the content was embarrassing. Personal attacks on prominent trail figures ran rampant. It got so bad at one point that the site actually shut down for about a week to show members that current behavior was unacceptable. It was clear some level of moderation was needed. The the site moved from no moderation to where it is today. So the current level of moderation is not by accident. A conscience decision to moderate at this level was reached. Some say its too much moderation. Some say its too little.

Do I agree with the current level of moderation? NO! And I think there are some decisions made which are just plain stupid. But what I think doesn't matter. I must accept this site for what it is or move on. And so at least for the time being I try to follow the rules - I screw up every once and a while - and continue to hang around.

Hairbear
01-02-2013, 19:11
if the believability of the posts go down, so does the percieved quality of the info on this sight .imho

russb
01-02-2013, 19:42
So feeding Trolls is Bad? OK lesson learned. Can we play with them if we promise not to bring them home?

Just don't feed them after midnight or get them wet.

HikerMom58
01-02-2013, 19:42
if the believability of the posts go down, so does the percieved quality of the info on this sight .imho

True dat, Hairbear but it's not too hard to tell the difference between the legit ones sharing "real" information from the ones that are just making stuff up. It's like everything you read on the World Wide Web. You have to determine the source & then make your decision on how much "weight" u put into it. I see what you are saying.. you are concerned about the overall quality of the "source" on WB. I think it's solid, myself.

Over the past 6 months or so that I have been an active member, I can tell the ones that really care about the info they share and the ones that don't. Some have great skills in sharing information but can lack "warm fuzzies"... LOL!! That's Ok tho. It is what it is. :) I like everyone for the positive things they bring to the site. Everyone brings something positive, most of the time. :)

Thanks for the thread Hairbear... I've learned a lot!

Pedaling Fool
01-02-2013, 20:16
Troll the Troll.

Bunch of freakin' uptight people here:rolleyes:

Pathfinder1
01-02-2013, 20:46
i 2nd your motion and take the pledge



Hi...


I, too, promise to keep using Pledge;)

hikerboy57
01-02-2013, 20:51
if the believability of the posts go down, so does the percieved quality of the info on this sight .imho
im still not sure if i need maps or not.

Another Kevin
01-02-2013, 21:09
It's Alligator's call - or the call of the moderators, in general.

What I saw was that the community took inflammatory topics, and had a respectful, civil discussion. Respect and civility starve the troll nearly as much as shutting down the thread. Trolls get entertainment from getting a rise out of people, not from kicking off a civil discourse.

That said, the attempts to troll were transparent, albeit unsuccessful, so I have no objection to shutting down the threads. I do have a little bit of regret about the one regarding Black hikers - which broadened more generally to minority and otherwise socially disadvantaged ones - because I think our community would benefit if it could lose the public perception of being a sport for overprivileged white folks. (For instance, certain commentators would have less glee at blaming the victim when allocating SAR costs.) So I was interested in hearing people's ideas on the subject - which had not been done to death. But I'll respect the moderators' decision and not try to reopen the discussion, just express mild regret.

Drybones
01-02-2013, 21:13
After I learned about this site I rarely visited it until I can across a thread called "why can't we all get along", it was the most laughs I've ever had, hated to see it closed. Some of the chameleons on this site should be writing for Jay Leno. The way I see it you have real hikers coming here to learn and you have another group that's just looking to hang out, kinda like around the campfire, and maybe pass the bottle around. After a few rounds of the bottle we may say things we shouldn't but , hey , we're still friends in th emorning.

Wise Old Owl
01-02-2013, 21:23
Yes that was one of my favorites.... http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?86178-cant-we-all-get-along/page22

I hope that's the right one! mine was possibly much earlier. My brother sitting behind me suggested next month is the Revisionist History Month!

hikerboy57
01-02-2013, 21:23
After I learned about this site I rarely visited it until I can across a thread called "why can't we all get along", it was the most laughs I've ever had, hated to see it closed. Some of the chameleons on this site should be writing for Jay Leno. The way I see it you have real hikers coming here to learn and you have another group that's just looking to hang out, kinda like around the campfire, and maybe pass the bottle around. After a few rounds of the bottle we may say things we shouldn't but , hey , we're still friends in th emorning.
and some are a little of both. if you were around the cafe last night there were 3 or 4 pages about hiking the whites.i enjoy contributing when i can , and i created the cafe so that we would have that campfire you're talking about and joke around about ourselves and some of the threads along the way. since it started, not once has the cafe been trolled. i dont think it can be trolled. we seem to have a bad case of add and cant stay on any one topic too long. its the thread drift thread of threads.but i hope the cafe has also given people a place to snark a bit so that we keep it out of the other threads where guys just need straightforward information, although it may be posted in the general forum. sometimes things are posted by trolls and non trolls alike that can be quite provocative and provoke a response. ive tried to control myself in how or if i choose to respond at all. its so easy when your behind a keyboard but as others have said many times. the real trail is a much kinder more civil community.
this is a great place to share information trip reports and stories. friendships have been made here, some no doubt for life.the mods do a pretty good job overall and we do need to work within the rules, which usually involves just a very small amount of self control.
discuss among yourselves

SassyWindsor
01-02-2013, 22:17
much ado over nothin'. ebb and flow

I agree 100% and I'll leave it at that.

WalksInDark
01-02-2013, 22:31
Having been forced to leave multiple (formerly useful) websites due to Trolls ruining the discussion between kindred spirits. I applaud the moderators when they kill non-productive posts and/or pull Trolls off of the board! :clap

Differences of opinion are great, name calling, baiting, or attacking other members is something I personally can do without. :(

Papa D
01-02-2013, 22:53
Troll is back -just posted as 'under the bridge' - - i suggest no response - - getting dangerous

hikerboy57
01-02-2013, 22:58
Troll is back -just posted as 'under the bridge' - - i suggest no response - - getting dangerous
ignore works

Papa D
01-02-2013, 22:59
yeah - I'm ignoring - it's weird though - threatening almost

hikerboy57
01-02-2013, 23:02
yeah - I'm ignoring - it's weird though - threatening almost
just hit the little triangle report it to the mods and put him on ignore, let the boys upstairs do the rest.

bfayer
01-02-2013, 23:02
Troll is back -just posted as 'under the bridge' - - i suggest no response - - getting dangerous

At least he is hanging out in the right place :)

This time I believe he is challenging Alligator to a one on one troll war.

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