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SGT Rock
01-08-2013, 23:22
This guy Sean "Run Bum" Blanton has planned a run that goes over the Duncan Ridge Trail and the Benton MacKaye Trail in Georgia, but hasn't even got FS approval for it yet nor did he ask either of the trail organizations about it ahead of time. It seems he is already taking entries and money for it too.

It just seems like this is a BS thing to do to me.

These trails were designed for remoteness and solitude. Not for 150 muldoons to go out and run on. So now the FS is probably going to approve it so they don't become the toad in the road and deal with complaints. Runners who don't maintain, don't hike, don't do anything for the trails (which need help) are going to end up jamming it down the throats of the BMTA and the GATC, neither of which support this.

http://georgiadeathrace.com/index.html

Apparently the race was also going to be on part of the AT too, but that got nixed because the trail is protected as a national scenic trail. So the AT which is use to hundreds of people is going to be bypassed on FS road, but the remote trails that are specifically made to so you can get some solitude get the hundreds of people and runners.

Don't get me wrong. I don't mind trail runners one bit. But 150 muldoons that should be running somewhere else do piss me off.

Rain Man
01-08-2013, 23:39
Agreed.

Rain Man

.

Old Hiker
01-08-2013, 23:40
His e-mail address is on the form - send HIM your thoughts, as well to the FS and any other interested parties.

SGT Rock
01-08-2013, 23:43
I have. I encourage others to do so as well.

I'll also say I've never protested anything in my life, but I sure am tempted to be on the trail somewhere on March 16.

Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2

Odd Man Out
01-09-2013, 00:10
You do recall that Run Bum has a "track record" here at WB? If you are annoyed, join the club.

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?81132-AT-speed-record
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?83751-AT-Unsupported-Speed-Record-Attempt&p=1284586&viewfull=1#post1284586
http://www.sportiva.com/live/live-archive/running-lounge/sean-blanton-at-speed-record-attempt

SGT Rock
01-09-2013, 00:23
The first time in my life I have ever done something like this: http://wh.gov/PNOc

Mags
01-09-2013, 00:30
Try writing the dude's sponsors, too. I imagine La Sportiva would not like the bad press esp based on his the past experience he has had on this board.

Races like Leadville and Hardr Rock actively work with the local agencies. IIRC, I believe some of the trail races require trail work even before getting into the race.

So, yeah, write the sponsors and emphasize the not working with the local agencies theme.

A low key trail race 'under the radar' is one thing...a full blown ultra with entry fees and such is another kettle of fish esp when the local agencies were not involved.

Mrs Baggins
01-09-2013, 05:40
Isn't there a race every year (ultramarathon I think) that involves the AT here in Maryland? I had to cancel a hike that I was going to lead last year because of it - too many people were going to be out there and we were warned that there would be no parking available for us.

wiel
01-09-2013, 08:53
The Forest Service sent out a request for comments to stakeholders on this (or one very similar) "special" use of Duncan Ridge and Coosa Backcountry trails in June 2012 for a race to be held in Nov 2012. A similar event may have been held the previous year also.

SGT Rock
01-09-2013, 09:10
I've heard about the one in November for the DRT.

JAK
01-09-2013, 09:23
I wouldn't mind hearing about a low key event by an individual or small group where there was no money involved. That would be different. Too often these days people use economic arguments, for everything, like bringing in money makes something ok. Everything has become an industry. Eco-tourism, etc. Makes me gag.

We just had another "non-motorized" trail in New Brunswick turned in a "multi-use" trail, meaning ATVs, and a big part of the argument for it was that ATVers spend more money on their ATVs than hikers do on their equipment, so they are doing more for the economy and that should give them more say, regardless of the impact on the environment.

JAK
01-09-2013, 09:25
I'm gonna have to look up "muldoon" though.

SGT Rock
01-09-2013, 09:38
FWIW the Death Race appears to be a very new creation from the run bum. The main reason seems to be for income for him.

Muldoon is a name we used for just any person in general, but usually when talking about soldiers. Like saying "We are going to hit this town and we expect about 50 muldoons in there" or "I am going to take my muldoons running down that trail today for PT."

jburgasser
01-09-2013, 10:00
The first time in my life I have ever done something like this: http://wh.gov/PNOc


I signed your petition. I think this guy is just out to try to make money for himself from the entry fees. Even if the race does get cancelled, I'll bet he won't return entry fees already recieved. Remember, this is the same guy that tried to solicit money for 20 pairs of trail runners for speed thru attempt!! If he is part of the Sportiva racing team, wouldn't Sportiva supply his shoes? My dad was sponsored by Nike back in the 80's and he was getting running shoes and racing flats from them all the time...

Ickybod

Malto
01-09-2013, 10:28
You do recall that Run Bum has a "track record" here at WB? If you are annoyed, join the club.

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?81132-AT-speed-record
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?83751-AT-Unsupported-Speed-Record-Attempt&p=1284586&viewfull=1#post1284586
http://www.sportiva.com/live/live-archive/running-lounge/sean-blanton-at-speed-record-attempt

I knew that name sounded familiar. Maybe the real reason this doesn't include the AT is because the run bum had such a bad experience with it last year.

max patch
01-09-2013, 10:30
Wow...200 entrants and he coulda sold more. People coming from as far away as Oregon and Canada.

Bati
01-09-2013, 22:09
How about a slightly different approach.
First, list all the valid reasons why other people should be upset. A profit motive doesn't count as much as:
- possible damage to the trail (any environmentally sensitive plants along the way?, would a runner rescue create additional damage?
- trash left behind by runners
- impact on current trail users
- if permission wasn't obtained, have other things such as runner safety also been overlooked?

And then a few questions:
1) How did you find out that they don't have permission? Which FS region/s are impacted? Do they have the budget (especially given the CR) to support this race or will funds be removed from other areas to pay for it? What is the actual cost of having the race on the trails- should EA's be done or are they not needed, are rangers supposed to be on duty for it, etc?
If you found out from a contact in the FS, then post their contact information here for people to call and email.

2) How do you know that the trail clubs weren't contacted or don't support this?
or more to the point, why don't I see a message on the BMTA home page noting that they are opposed to the use of the trail for any large groups or commercial events? A lot of the runners who signed up will be similar to us- enjoy the outdoors and want to protect it, but may have no knowledge that this event was approved ahead of time nor that it's opposed by the maintaining groups.

3) Do the clubs have maintenance activities scheduled for that weekend? If the clubs don't have time to clear winter blowdowns ahead of time could the race cause major erosion problems in some areas and if so, who will pay for the trail repair?

4) Do Amicolola and Vogel SP know how many cars to expect and have room for parking? Since the participants must pay for parking and "The goal of this race is to help fund the parks so if you do not pay or forget to then you are undermining the efforts made by the race to support the park." it sounds like they might not have been notified of the large influx of cars. Never mind that parking fees would go only the parks- just keep in mind that this is what the runners are reading on the website, though I suspect it means they may not know the whole story either.

5) There are 6 sponsors, some of whom are interested in keeping current customers happy and in protecting the environment. Folks should be contacting Petzl to complain about their sponsorship of the race. Is Petzl's claim about social and environmental responsibility just something that looks good on a website or are they unaware that the race does not have proper permits? More to the point-Do you have a phone number to contact them or should the corporate email be used?


Following up on these questions has a fair chance of getting better results.

fiddlehead
01-09-2013, 22:38
I don't see the problem.
It's one day out of the year where ultra runners (who like to do their thing on trails instead of roads) will be turned on to some good views and new trails.

I don't see anyone complaining about David Horton's race which uses part of the AT.
Share the trail. Don't be so selfish.

Sly
01-09-2013, 22:45
So what happened to Run Bum's speed record attempt?

SGT Rock
01-09-2013, 22:52
I'll try and answer these as best I know.


How about a slightly different approach.
First, list all the valid reasons why other people should be upset. A profit motive doesn't count as much as:
- possible damage to the trail (any environmentally sensitive plants along the way?, would a runner rescue create additional damage?
- trash left behind by runners
- impact on current trail users
- if permission wasn't obtained, have other things such as runner safety also been overlooked?
I doubt there will be any extra significant trail damage. I also have been told, and believe, that the race will be kept as clean and LNT as possible. Permission was not attained before announcing the race and (I assume) collecting entry fees. There is a meeting on this with the FS and the BMTA coming up. The BMTAs tentative position is against this use. I cannot speak for the GATC or the FS, but what I have heard is the GATC is also not happy (DRT) but the FS doesn't want to be the bad guy in not approving the course. There are plans for first aid stations, and the BMTA was invited to run one. Our position is we don't support this to begin with, and we don't want the liability/blame if someone gets hurt: "The BMTA was supposed to handle that". I haven't seen the risk assessment or the risk reduction measures planned, so I cannot say if the plan would pass muster.

Something else I think I should mention. Personally I don't have anything against trail runners or trail running. I've done some in my past as well (non-competitive stuff) and as far as I know, no one on the BMTA board does either. We don't want this to be a trail runner vs hiker thing. If 150 boy scouts were about to all hike the trail together on the same day I would also oppose it.


And then a few questions:
1) How did you find out that they don't have permission? Which FS region/s are impacted? Do they have the budget (especially given the CR) to support this race or will funds be removed from other areas to pay for it? What is the actual cost of having the race on the trails- should EA's be done or are they not needed, are rangers supposed to be on duty for it, etc?I've found out through the BMTA board. I'm the director of maintenance for Tennessee and North Carolina. Unfortunately I missed this last meeting, but have been in on some e-mail traffic about this. The Forest Service region is the Blue Ridge District of the Chattahoochee National Forest. I believe they are meeting in the Blairsville offices, but I am not completely sure on the where for the meetings. The FS will have to answer those questions, and I don't know if there is an answer yet.


If you found out from a contact in the FS, then post their contact information here for people to call and email.

2) How do you know that the trail clubs weren't contacted or don't support this?
or more to the point, why don't I see a message on the BMTA home page noting that they are opposed to the use of the trail for any large groups or commercial events? A lot of the runners who signed up will be similar to us- enjoy the outdoors and want to protect it, but may have no knowledge that this event was approved ahead of time nor that it's opposed by the maintaining groups.

Again, I am on the board of the BMTA, we just covered this and apparently this guy already did all this planning without consultation. I'll add to that the fact I've e-mailed him myself. He told me who he did try to contact (but not when) and never received a response. The person he was contacting (or said he was) was not the BMTA President or the director for Georgia, or the past president, or any other position that would be responsible for this. He did tell me that he was a BMTA member, but neglected to mention that the membership was put in after this started to blow up. As to not letting the rest of the world know, I am trying to get that out now.


3) Do the clubs have maintenance activities scheduled for that weekend? If the clubs don't have time to clear winter blowdowns ahead of time could the race cause major erosion problems in some areas and if so, who will pay for the trail repair?I do not know if the Georgia maintenance director had anything scheduled for this time period. I know I am still trying to figure out what we are doing on this section this month and next month. March has too many possibilities for what may need fixed given what winter can/may do.


4) Do Amicolola and Vogel SP know how many cars to expect and have room for parking? Since the participants must pay for parking and "The goal of this race is to help fund the parks so if you do not pay or forget to then you are undermining the efforts made by the race to support the park." it sounds like they might not have been notified of the large influx of cars. Never mind that parking fees would go only the parks- just keep in mind that this is what the runners are reading on the website, though I suspect it means they may not know the whole story either.
I cannot answer those questions. I was told that there was a plan to run on part of the AT to do the route but he was already bumped off it due to the National Scenic Trails designation of the AT and put on FS roads. The DRT and the BMT do not have these at this time. It is interesting that these two trails are specifically built to be more remote and provide more solitude than the AT, but since the AT is protected, these trails will get the race that the AT won't. They may enjoy the temporary jump in use. They do an AT kick-off, but that will be the weekend prior so there is no conflict.


5) There are 6 sponsors, some of whom are interested in keeping current customers happy and in protecting the environment. Folks should be contacting Petzl to complain about their sponsorship of the race. Is Petzl's claim about social and environmental responsibility just something that looks good on a website or are they unaware that the race does not have proper permits? More to the point-Do you have a phone number to contact them or should the corporate email be used?


Following up on these questions has a fair chance of getting better results.I do not know what they have been told. I do know that some of my friends are writing them.

SGT Rock
01-09-2013, 22:58
So what happened to Run Bum's speed record attempt?
According to his website


8. Appalachian Trail speed record attempt. Appalachian Trail, USA
First of all leading into this race I had 10 months of training and prep. I was in the best hiking and climbing all day shape that I have and probably will EVER be in. I had put in my head so much this thought of speed speed speed record record record. When I got on the trail none of that mattered. I just went and I just enjoyed the trail, the people and the views. Sometimes I saw people every 30 minutes. Other days I would run all day and not see a soul. It was a truly life changing experience. I hope to go back in 2015 and try it again.
Sounds like he went out and had a good time. Good for him. I wonder if the sponsors feel cheated?

SGT Rock
01-09-2013, 23:02
I don't see the problem.
It's one day out of the year where ultra runners (who like to do their thing on trails instead of roads) will be turned on to some good views and new trails.

I don't see anyone complaining about David Horton's race which uses part of the AT.
Share the trail. Don't be so selfish.I know nothing of this race. If I did, maybe I would have an anti-use opinion. More details?

I don't feel selfish. I'll share the trail with any runner, hiker, walker, etc. But to plan this, sell tickets, and not even have it approved or coordinated is not good.

Like I said, I've got nothing against trail runners. But if it were 150 boy scouts all planning to do this as a hike at the same time I would also oppose it.

Leanthree
01-09-2013, 23:07
If they didn't permit prior to promoting the event they should not get the permit.

Assuming an event organizer jumps through some necessary hoops to pull something like this off (course "sweeper" to pick up obvious trash, insurance in case of damage to the park, placing notifications at trail heads so that people can avoid the area if they wish, limiting number of events per period of time, paying a fee per participant etc.), I am ok with this sort of trail use. In designated wilderness, they should be very very limited.

SGT Rock
01-09-2013, 23:22
In designated wilderness, they should be very very limited.In designated wilderness it would not even be an issue as party size is limited to 12 people if I remember correctly.

Bati
01-09-2013, 23:36
I don't see the problem.


Basically, the problem is that this guy appears to not be following the rules for trail races.

See http://www.trailrunner.com/news/trail_etiquette.htm for some suggestions, such as

"Involve the community. Make sure that you secure all permits, permissions,.."- 'nuff said.

"All the associated happenings of a trail race “event” add up and contribute to the total impact"- 200 runners could cause problems, especially if blowdowns aren't cleared beforehand. I seriously doubt anyone but the trail clubs would be cutting up downed trees before the race.

"Consider the timing of your event so as not to conflict with other trail and area users during already heavily used time periods."- Do you think Amilacola will see many hikers on Saturday March 16?

"Plan your start/finish area with care. Is adequate parking available? Will heavy concentrated use damage the vegetation or land?"- I don't know but it's a possibility.

It appears that these rules came from the ARTA. Perhaps they would have some answers; I don't see them listed on the race website.

SGT Rock
01-09-2013, 23:47
Basically, the problem is that this guy appears to not be following the rules for trail races.

See http://www.trailrunner.com/news/trail_etiquette.htm for some suggestions, such as

"Involve the community. Make sure that you secure all permits, permissions,.."- 'nuff said.

"All the associated happenings of a trail race “event” add up and contribute to the total impact"- 200 runners could cause problems, especially if blowdowns aren't cleared beforehand. I seriously doubt anyone but the trail clubs would be cutting up downed trees before the race.Generally we try to handle blow downs within a month or so unless they are really bad. Less whenever possible. In some areas (the race does not plan to go through) they are more remote and maintained to wilderness rules which makes it harder to get them cleared. I maintain such a section as my personal 3 miles of trail. No power tools.


"Consider the timing of your event so as not to conflict with other trail and area users during already heavily used time periods."- Do you think Amilacola will see many hikers on Saturday March 16?Yes. Thru-hiker season is under way. The DRT apparently already gets a trail run every year that is coordinated, and it happens in November if I understand correctly. Part of our (The BMTA) objection is if we start with this one, then another will just assume they can do the same thing. Looks like the DRT has prove that right.


"Plan your start/finish area with care. Is adequate parking available? Will heavy concentrated use damage the vegetation or land?"- I don't know but it's a possibility.

It appears that these rules came from the ARTA. Perhaps they would have some answers; I don't see them listed on the race website.
I don't either. Nor the GATC, or the BMTA, or the Forest Service. Just some commercial sponsors and himself.

I don't know that 150 runners would cause any significant damage or trash. I assume that people into this sport are going to be conscientious to the environment and the trail i.e. not cutting switchbacks and such. Again, I have no problems with trail runners and as far as I know, no one else does either.

Mags
01-10-2013, 00:04
I don't see the problem.
It's one day out of the year where ultra runners (who like to do their thing on trails instead of roads) will be turned on to some good views and new trails.



This race is more akin to the Leadville 100 than Horton's record attempt.

Except the nice folks from Leadville 100 (and other trail ultras) coordinate with local officials, adhere to the standards mentioned above http://www.trailrunner.com/news/trail_etiquette.htm, and appear to be better about sharing the trail, being responsible runners and good custodians than the race we are discussing.

SGT Rock
01-10-2013, 00:24
I just looked at Horton's race. It looks like 90%+ of it is on roads or old dirt roads. One description from a runner I saw said something like "about 4 miles on the Appalachian Trail" but when I looked at the map of the route I wasn't sure exactly if it even was 4 miles on the AT.

Sly
01-10-2013, 02:01
According to his website


8. Appalachian Trail speed record attempt. Appalachian Trail, USA
First of all leading into this race I had 10 months of training and prep. I was in the best hiking and climbing all day shape that I have and probably will EVER be in. I had put in my head so much this thought of speed speed speed record record record. When I got on the trail none of that mattered. I just went and I just enjoyed the trail, the people and the views. Sometimes I saw people every 30 minutes. Other days I would run all day and not see a soul. It was a truly life changing experience. I hope to go back in 2015 and try it again.

Sounds like he went out and had a good time. Good for him. I wonder if the sponsors feel cheated?

Pretty vague. I wander how many days he was out and if he enjoyed the trail so much, did he complete it or just quit when the record was out of reach?

Bati
01-10-2013, 07:29
y. The DRT apparently already gets a trail run every year that is coordinated, and it happens in November if I understand correctly. Part of our (The BMTA) objection is if we start with this one, then another will just assume they can do the same thing. Looks like the DRT has prove that right.

I don't either. Nor the GATC, or the BMTA, or the Forest Service. Just some commercial sponsors and himself.
.

Read his website carefully- next year's race will go from Amicolola to Vogel.

ATMountainTime
01-10-2013, 12:13
thanks for the info Sgt Rock, sent a msg to BMT. personally i love the BMT bacuse it is not over used, over camped, and dont want these clowns on it if i can help it. but they do have a right to it i suppose. As long as the trail isn't getting damaged I have to be a little tolerant (but i dont wanna be LOL)

Man i still have that "business card" you gave me at ATKO last year. Lets grab a coffee this year!

SGT Rock
01-10-2013, 12:51
I don't know if I am making to that one this year. We'll see. But if I do, love to drink some coffee together.

max patch
01-10-2013, 13:20
Mr Bum says that people are trying to "sabotage" the race and he has been "threatened".

max patch
01-10-2013, 13:58
FWIW the Death Race appears to be a very new creation from the run bum. The main reason seems to be for income for him.



200 runners at registration fees of $75 - $125 works out to $20,000 ish gross before expenses.

max patch
01-10-2013, 14:03
I signed your petition. I think this guy is just out to try to make money for himself from the entry fees. Even if the race does get cancelled, I'll bet he won't return entry fees already recieved.

Organizing a race without permits (if this is true) is one thing. Calling him a potential crook is uncalled for. I see no reason for this accusation.

SGT Rock
01-10-2013, 14:04
I don't know who threatened him and I certainly don't condone that.

Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2

SGT Rock
01-10-2013, 14:09
Mr Bum says that people are trying to "sabotage" the race and he has been "threatened".
Where did you hear that he was threatened?

max patch
01-10-2013, 14:14
Run Bum
I am really sad and upset that people are trying to sabotage the race. I have gotten threats. I don't know what I should do

http://www.facebook.com/events/222513554546559/

SGT Rock
01-10-2013, 14:29
Run Bum
I am really sad and upset that people are trying to sabotage the race. I have gotten threats. I don't know what I should do

http://www.facebook.com/events/222513554546559/

Thanks Max. I feel for him, I really do. I wouldn't want to be threatened over something like this.

As to sabotage, I guess if you consider concerned parties voicing their opinions sabotage then at that I am guilty. I suppose the Road to Nowhere people felt sabotaged, the corridor K people probably feel sabotaged, people that wanted to ride snowmobiles through wilderness areas felt sabotaged, and I am sure other people feel sabotaged based on their viewpoint in any endeavor. The BMTA is having a meeting in the near future with the FS over this. If they feel satisfied after that meeting, and the permits get approval, then so be it. I still won't like it. Until the permits are actually approved and going then I'll speak my mind and urge the change to FS roads. I want the runners to have their run, I just do not want it in these trails that are specifically for those that seek more solitude.

kyletorok
01-10-2013, 17:39
Hey, everyone, this is my first post. I'm one of the entrants of the Georgia Death Race. I have read through your posts on this subject, twice and very carefully. I wanted to understand as fully as possible your perspectives, and how this event will affect you and your communities. I have no authority to speak for the event's organization, but I can tell you more what to expect from its participants. I hope that will help begin some kind of dialogue, possibly foster understanding, but at least allay some concerns.

I know many of the other event entrants, and the general character and attitudes of those I have yet to meet. They, like me, are seasoned trail and ultra runners, out not to tear up records or scorch others, but to challenge themselves, and experience the wonders to which these trails lead. From other events and my own experience, I can tell you that the runners know and practice proper trail etiquette. They treat hikers and other users with great respect, usually hopping off the trail to let them pass if in opposing directions; or carefully calling out to let them know a runner's about to pass, and, when doing so, they excuse themselves and thank that hiker. I've met some interesting people this way, and heard great stories. (Also had some tremendous tips on gear and technique.)

We would never willingly leave trash behind, and if by some chance something was dropped, a later runner will almost certainly stoop to pick it up. They understand that volunteers are the quiet cogs that move the machinery maintaining these trails; many of them belong to trail organizations where they are from. And, honestly, a lot of trail and ultra running is power walking and hiking. Ah, to have conquering quads! Most of the "running" will be downhill, and that will be done with great care, for our bones, sure, but mostly for the trails themselves. Trail runners, and ultra runners even more so, want that challenge, but especially that immersion, that solitude, of which you write.

I understand the paternal feelings you have toward these incredible resources that you have stewarded with such care. And, while I am at it: thank you for doing so. If there are any guides by which you hope we'd abide, any information you hope disbursed, please share it. It is a close community, where everyone knows each other, and word spreads. These aren't the scowl-and-scorch type, the do-or-die guys; they are grinners and laughers, the good-enough-let's-have-a-beer crowd, with black toenails and wonky gaits, who might not be the best at what they do, but they love so much where they do it, and that they are able to.

Of greatest importance is the experience of all who use any trails: their safety; their experience; and the stories they carry with them after. Hikers' especially.

Lone Wolf
01-10-2013, 17:44
I don't see the problem.
It's one day out of the year where ultra runners (who like to do their thing on trails instead of roads) will be turned on to some good views and new trails.

I don't see anyone complaining about David Horton's race which uses part of the AT.
Share the trail. Don't be so selfish.
i'm with you fiddlehead. army rangers trash the AT near hawk mtn. yearly. nobody complains about that

fiddlehead
01-10-2013, 18:05
Trying to understand the thinking that creates threads like this where people think they have more power to use a trail than others.
The only thing I can think of is maybe it comes from doing maintenance and working hard to erase the damage done by runners/skiers/etc.

Reminds me of the time I complained to the forest service because I saw 4 wheelers tearing up the CDT and causing damage.
The ranger simply said: "they have a right to use that land too"
It took me a few years to fully understand that he is right.
They are the public too.
They own the land too. (Hunting fees in PA go towards BUYING the land that the AT runs on by the way)
They help maintain it too.

Or, the anti-horse attitude that took place on the PCT with Ray Jardine's animosity towards them.
Until I worked on one of the crews and found out that many of the workers were horse people and had actually done a lot to build that great trail.

I see nothing wrong with sharing our trails with hunters, runners, skiers, equestrians, etc.
As long as they keep dogs and dog lovers off :sun

Odd Man Out
01-10-2013, 18:21
Pretty vague. I wander how many days he was out and if he enjoyed the trail so much, did he complete it or just quit when the record was out of reach?

Here is the whole sad story.

His goal was to average 50 miles per day.

http://www.runbum.com/?p=495 Day 1=53 miles in 16 hrs
http://www.runbum.com/?p=629 Day 2=31 miles in 12.5 hrs
http://www.runbum.com/?p=634 Day 3=39 miles
http://www.runbum.com/?p=639 Day 4=26 miles in 7.5 hrs
http://www.runbum.com/?p=647 Day 5=16 miles in 5.5 hrs
http://www.runbum.com/?p=660 Day 6=33 miles

He quit due to severe intestinal distress, brought on by lack of food and water.

max patch
01-10-2013, 19:11
Run Bum Speaks.....

Run Bum please do not stir the fire or say anything there guys. THIS RACE WILL HAPPEN that is 100% ! We have everything we need. This is one guy and he is kind of out there with this. IT is unfortunate that he does not have the facts straight AT ALL.
about an hour ago · Like · 1

Run Bum HERE IS AN EMAIL WE HAVE SENT TO THE MAN ERNEST ENGMAN aka SGT ROCK AKA the man who owns www.Hikinghq.net "WE have sent multiple emails to the BMTA president as well as Georgia Owen. I am a BMTA member and I am trying to offer to maintain some of the sections that do not have a home. As a runner and a hiker I love these trails I treat these trails with EVERY bit of care and respect. We put on GREEN races meaning no plastic cups, no trash left behind and we give prizes to whomever brings in the most trash.

We offered, and the offer STILL and will stand, to do many things to help out the BMTA. 1. A cash donation of $1,000 dollars to be used on the trail in Ga. 2. take over maintenance for the Licklog to Rhodes section (which did not have any maintainer). 3. Offer 60 man hours of maintenance to any part of this trail 4. send out an email to our runners who DO RUN THE TRAIL regularly to join the BMTA as well as encourage them to get out there and help with maintenance. 5. Offer a yearly or bi yearly day where the runner and racers of this annual event come and help work on the trail however the BMTA see fit.

I asked that the BMTA help out at 2 of the aid stations on the BMT during the race, but we have enough volunteers (well over 100) that can help so we do not even need this unless someone really wants to help out.

I am also thinking of the bigger picture. This race will benefit Amicalola State Park as well as Vogel State Park. It will bring a lot of money for the parks which will be used to maintain the parks and ensure their future. It will also

So basically we are not asking ANYTHING from the BMTA other than them allowing other foot traffickers on a small section of the trail.
Again what can we do to help the BMTA maintain the trail?

I am really sorry you feel this way. I am a hiker and I don't want yourself or any of the BMTA to think this is runners vs hikers. Also this course does use FS roads, 26 miles of them. As well as the DRT. Many races with 250+ have been held as out and backs on the DRT with NO DAMAGE to the trail or nature.

I appreciate your concerns and we did not mean to alarm you. These were simply tests to check for safety today.

Any positive and or constructive criticism will be taken seriously. We REALLY want to work with the BMTA on this not against! Double Top 100m race uses a 10 mile section as an out and back and this will be there 2nd year doing so.

Thank you for the message

Enjoy the trails and THANK YOU FOR WHAT YOU DO!
Which section do you maintain? Maybe we can come and help you with it. I can get a lot of man power out there to help.

Hiking H.Q.
www.hikinghq.net
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59 minutes ago · Like · 1

Run Bum With that being said if someone would post this on whiteblaze for me. I am NOT trying to start anything but I do feel like we need to post a reply to this gentleman. I have recieved SEVERAL emails from folks who belong to his private forum on his website who see what he is posting. The authorities have been contact as well as the USFS who associate him with the BMTA. This hurting their chances in dealing with the USFS.
57 minutes ago · Like

Run Bum TO answer some questions he raised or were raised. do I have a permit in hand... no. WHY? EVERY SINGLE TRAIL RACE ON USFS and usually DNR land takes a long time ot get a permit. there is A LOT of stuff for them to go through. I have had SEVERAL verbal confirmations the race will happen as well as no problems with the route we have chosen. The goal is not to RUIN the trails or shove people out of the way. Right of way goes to the hiker! The permits can be given as late as the day before the race. This is why we have back up routes. Permits go through local, regional, state and national level. Its just how it works. I WAS OKED TO OPEN UP REGISTRATION FROM THE USFS! RD's will never tell you this because it will alarm folks and you cant get people to sign up. I am telling you this because I am honest. As with anyone who knows me I hate my current job. I am trying to become a race director full time. That is right FOR PROFIT. This is no surprise. And it doesnt make me evil. People pay me to get them to have a fun time. In doing so I work about 30 -50 hours a week of different stuff on this race. emails, calls, on site planning, logistics etc. How much $? Well the race will take in about $17,000. We estimate it will cost about 7-9,000 to put on. then the government takes 20%+ out. you do the math. out of the money we spend on the race nearly 100% of that goes local from the bus rentals for people dropping, to food, to the parks. Everyone gets a slice of the pie. and RIGHTLY SO!
49 minutes ago · Like

Run Bum part of the deal with the USFS is we give them a percentage of the profit. This helps them do what they do and maintain the area.
48 minutes ago · Like

Brian Turner On a different note - is Vogel prepared to handle the increase in parked vehicles for this race? I know the main parking lot is only large enough to handle roughly a couple dozen vehicles. Will there be an additional area(s) where we can park?
48 minutes ago via mobile · Like

Run Bum as far as blow downs and stuff to get the trails raedy before the race to prevent damage... We as in myself and a small group of RD''s and friends clear this. We would love to coordinate with the BMTA on this and other maintenance.
46 minutes ago · Like

Run Bum as for the parks. We pay the parks an over all amount to use the facilities (they make money) people pay $5 a day to park or have an annual pass (they make money), The park rents out their campsites, cabins, lodge and sells food etc (they make money). The parks in th pass have been mainly funded by tax payer funds. These events help them make money so they DO NOT HAVE TO USE TAX PAYER FUNDING. The parks are becoming a business as they have been cutting more and more funding.
43 minutes ago · Like

Run Bum Parking at the parks. In march there are not many people visiting the parks and there is MORE than ample parking.
42 minutes ago · Like

Run Bum Brian... Vogel parks 250 people+ for an event in novemeber. it will be more than ok. we also have more than ample back up parking .
39 minutes ago · Like · 1

Run Bum The only thing I can actually see that Earnie has that is a valid point that I have not told you is that they (not meaning this is a bad way), the BMTA and a lot of purist hikers want the BMT as a true wilderness experience. I respect this because I LOVE this aspect of the race and its what I want our runners to feel during the race. The areas we are using are the only sections I ever see people on. Also its not like 20 miles into this crazy hard race people will be lined up single file. you will have 10% who've dropped by then 10% who never started and the race spread out over a period of 7-10 hours! I really hope hikers don't hate us. The DRT is a great example of what good can come from this. THE DRT was overgrown, had blowdowns and was a mess. It gets overlooked all too often because there simply (to my knowledge) is not enough man power to take care of it. You go hikeit now and you see the TLC that has been done to the trail. by who? RUNNERS and RACE DIRECTORS who use the trail for races. How can we all work together in a way to better the local communities, the trails and society? I hope this race makes a positive impact on all of that for years to come.
33 minutes ago · Like

Run Bum WOULD SOMEONE BE AS KIND AS TO POST THAT OVER ON WHITE BLAZE
32 minutes ago · Like

Emil Justin Gazda IV That is plain freaking ridiculous...the same can be said for any TRAIL race! Silliness, nothing more.
26 minutes ago · Like · 1

Run Bum As far as runner safety goes we have 2 ham radio operators AT EACH AID STATION. We also have the army rangers alerted to us being in the area and are going to possibly offering emergency medical personnel. We have on duty medical staff for the race and we have law enforcement as well to deal with anything that might happen. So I assure you the last 3 n half months of me emailing, calling and carrier pigeoning people has not and will not go to waste. The truth is that these trails are not owned or belong to any one person or group they are everyone who lives in the United States. We have bad weather reroutes in place in case it rains too much and there might be damage to the trails. Our goal is to maintain these trails not run a race mess everything up leave trash and leave!!!
16 minutes ago · Like

Run Bum So am I a bad person for doing hard work to make money and help people achieve the impossible and push them selves all to empower themselves and others to lead better lives and not be obese and unhealthy?

Bati
01-10-2013, 20:26
Run Bum Speaks.....

This is why we have back up routes.
Hmm. This is starting to get personal, but there is good news! Since there are back up routes, at least one of them should exclude the BMT. It sounds the BMTA wouldn't have an issue with the race if it led to 2 or 3 trail runners discovering what a great trail it is and enjoying it each weekend. (as opposed to 200 of them trying to run a stretch of narrow trail on the same day).

So as long as the parks don't have issues such as parking at the height of thru-hiker season, and the any other involved groups are OK with the back up route, there shouldn't be lots of opposition to the race coming to the forest service and perhaps permits won't be a problem. The FS could use the alternate maps when they request comments on the race permit. That should keep the participants as well as the trail maintenance organizations happy.

So- how do we get copies of the back up routes?

SGT Rock
01-11-2013, 09:02
Thanks Max for sharing that. Funny that I got called a purist you think? Anyhow, I've been around here for many years and I think most people know me and my character, though some of us may disagree on things like purism.

FWIW, I don't think I have said anything to the effect that there is anything wrong with Run Bum's character. If I implied it in any way I did not mean to, though I did state he was taking entries without permits and apparently I am right. But anyhow, any offense that I may have inadvertently caused at that I apologize for. I do know that the permits are not yet granted and that there is a route for the BMTA to contest them, but we may not in order to keep good relations with the FS See post #20 on this thread. I do know there is still going to be a meeting about this so maybe it isn't as decided as he states.

And again, I don't condone anyone who has threatened him.

Onto other points:

I want this race to happen, I'm not against that either. I'm glad it is 100% a go. I hope the runners have fun.

I did get Run Bum's email but did not share it as it was a a personal correspondence and I never wish to disclose something that is personally sent to me unless the person sending it approves it. And it was based on me contacting him first over this issue. So since it is here I assume he approved it and I'll address the points of the e-mail:

I have always assumed that the racers would do everything to keep the race areas clean and would police after racers. I've even stated so several times. I'm sure people that do this regularly have good back country ethics.

The offer to help the BMTA with trail maintenance is a great idea, please do it. But just because someone adopts a section doesn't change the way the BMT was envisioned. Donating money to the BMTA is also a nice gesture, but we should also not change the vision of the people that made the BMT to get $1000. I also do not know if they are doing the maintenance he says they are with the FS property (clearing blow downs) with proper certifications. I know those things are not always convenient to set up or get.

The BMTA does not want to participate in the aid stations out of two concerns: that we would incur liability if we were to have someone injured, and it would give the appearance that we sponsor and approve the run on the BMT which we don't.

The benefit to Amicalola and Vogel are great, and they can still happen even if the run is on FS roads. the Amicalola connection is already on FS road.

To help the BMT, move the route to the roads. That is what I told him in my response to his e-mail.

It has also never been runner vs hiker. I have no issue with any runner and would be happy to share the trail with runners, geocachers, day hikers, long distance hikers, and hunters. But if 150 boy scouts were trying to all hike the trail together I would also have a problem with it. I've not tried to turn this into runner versus hiker and I even told him that.

I do not think this will cause any damage to the trail. See above.

As to the "authorities" being contacted about me. I really do not know what they would report other than I do not agree with this use of the BMT or the DRT. If the BMTA is upset I am public in my displeasure with the route I can always resign LOL. I hope these "authorites" also get to see this or contact me. I'll be happy to show them ever e-mail and correspondence I've had about this. PLEASE, if someone wants to make this an issue, let them contact me. I get the feeling there is an implication that I am the one threatening him.

As to the DRT maintenance and being opened up by race directors. I personally know one of the trail maintainers of the area and I wonder what he thinks of that statement. I've hiked the DRT a few times over the last few years and have always found it passable. Unless the runner workers are getting out there and doing the re-routes I've seen over the years, I think the impact of the run folks is being a little over stated.

To his point about runners being spread out, imagine you are camped at that campsite just west of Coosa Bald and the 150 runners he talks about being spaced over time come running through your campsite after you have traveled miles by car and then walked a few miles to get to a place on a trail know for solitude. Ever 10 minutes for the next few hours you get trail runners with headlamps passing through your camp. I'm sure that would have an impact on that person or family.

And no, never said you were a bad person. I applaud you for wanting to have a good run. I even said I've done some trail running in the past and I also try to encourage people to exercise and get outside hence a dedication to backpacking, writing about backpacking, trail maintenance, guidebook writing, etc. But I still do not agree with your use of the BMT and the DRT for this race. I think it should be on FS roads. I've looked at the Mountain Masochist run route and 90%+ of the route is on roads and dirt roads. Apparently it is still very popular and runners still come to it. I also said that this event may be the impetus to spur a push better protection of the trail under the National Scenic Trails Act which is apparently what is keeping this run off the AT. And, as I have said, if this is too much for the AT, then trails like the DRT and BMT that were specifically made to be more remote, and provide that better feeling of solitude should have the same or greater consideration.

And, as I have said, if the FS grants you your route, I will live with it but I will not like it. I even started a petition to get the route move to FS roads it even though I figured it has no chance of ever getting enough signatures. Call me a cynic.

Good luck with the run. I hope everyone has a great time. But again, please keep it off the BMT. I'd also like to see it off the DRT, but I'm more of a spectator and user on that trail.

JAK
01-11-2013, 09:21
Well written Rock. You's a class act, for sure.

SGT Rock
01-11-2013, 11:48
Thanks JAK.

I forgot to mention, and I'm not sure if I e-mailed it or said it on a forum, but I've never protested anything in my life. But I feel strongly enough about this that I would if I could - provided it was on the BMT and not the FS road. I even invited some of my friends. But, alas, I have to work that day. Now if someone considers protest a threat, well I can't help that. That is me as a private citizen exercising my right, not the BMTA. Anyone that would have joined me would also be speaking for themselves.

And for whatever reason I am accused of "thinking I own the land", well theoretically we all do. But I don't feel it is my personal ownership.

But anyone that knows these long trails knows that the FS doesn't build them. They partner with those that do build them. Most time the FS sticks to keeping old roads open for "trails" and then volunteers maintain them since the FS really doesn't have the budget for it. And when it comes to the long trails across multiple districts it usually involves a group that forms with a mission (like the ATC) and starts getting everyone on board and then recruits and directs volunteers to build them. In my way of looking at it, those groups and their sweat equity do give them a vote in how the fruits of those labors should be used. If someone wants to build a 300 mile long running trail for these events, I applaud them and will support them 100%. I might even be persuaded to get my pulaski and go put in some work for the sake a of another long trail getting opened. But if someone wants to get mountain biking added to the uses allowed for the AT, well the ATC would expect to have a vote on it. I doubt anyone here would deny that.

bgood
01-14-2013, 20:06
I've been running these trails (AT,BMT,DRT) and service roads for over three years. I never seen anyone hiking or camping on these sections (with the exception, Coosa Backcountry trail, but very few people, and the section on the BMT between the parking lot and the swinging bridge over the Toccoa River in the summer (.25 mile))
There has been much neglect on these trails with marking, signage, trash, and overgrowth over the years. But since these footraces have taken place, there has been improvement. No longer is it necessary to wear chaps on the DRT, the blowdowns have been cleared and the markings fixed. While 200 runners sounds like a lot, it will clear out and spread out pretty quickly (Coosa Bald is not an easy climb for most). Ultra runners are not out there to trash the trails or start fires, they are out there to enjoy every bit of the trail, just at a faster pace. After seeing these trails many may come back to hike and camp. And it's just not about the trails, these events help the Parks and local economies. please lets not be selfish, we all can share and enjoy the trails.

SGT Rock
01-15-2013, 02:47
I've been running these trails (AT,BMT,DRT) and service roads for over three years. I never seen anyone hiking or camping on these sections (with the exception, Coosa Backcountry trail, but very few people, and the section on the BMT between the parking lot and the swinging bridge over the Toccoa River in the summer (.25 mile))
Those are two of the more popular sites. I can see why you are likely to see folks there, but I've only ever used one of those campsites myself. I've camped a lot of other places on those loops that you didn't list. Others I know have too.


There has been much neglect on these trails with marking, signage, trash, and overgrowth over the years. But since these footraces have taken place, there has been improvement. No longer is it necessary to wear chaps on the DRT, the blowdowns have been cleared and the markings fixed. I'm not as familiar with the DRT maintenance, but I do know a couple of the maintainers and wonder what they would say about that. I'd also say that despite the improvements, there are still people that complain about the DRT. I just a had a friend do it and I still don't get exactly what he did wrong because the section he claimed was overgrown this summer and he got lost in, wasn't.


While 200 runners sounds like a lot, it will clear out and spread out pretty quickly (Coosa Bald is not an easy climb for most). Ultra runners are not out there to trash the trails or start fires, they are out there to enjoy every bit of the trail, just at a faster pace. After seeing these trails many may come back to hike and camp. And it's just not about the trails, these events help the Parks and local economies. please lets not be selfish, we all can share and enjoy the trails.I have no problem sharing the trails with runners. But as I said, if 200 boy scouts were all going to go out there at once and hike the BMT/DRT/AT loop, I would have a problem with that. And if they are spread out that really doesn't improve things - imagine if you are camped on the top of Wallalaha Mountain like I've done a few times to enjoy that rock bald before bed, then imagine 150 people with headlamps spread out over 6 hours running through your camp (it is a small one), then I think you would probably wonder who let all those people go on the BMT/DRT at one time. Now I totally defend anyone's right to get out there be out there no matter if they are geocacher, hiker, day hiker, runner, etc. But large groups of any type would not be supported by me.

I would have a problem with mountain bikes on the BMT/DRT though LOL.

JAK
01-15-2013, 05:17
Whatever you do always respect and use the switchbacks and bridges and other such "improvements". They are there to protect the trail and the trail habitat, not to protect you, whether you are a hiker or a runner. I've done stuff over the years I'm not proud of, before I knew better, and a little since. You don't have to be an ATVer or a mountain biker or a trail runner to do unsustainable damage, and it all adds up. Work with others towards sustainability. People will define sustainability in different ways, but if it isn't sustainable, it isn't sustainable. Don't just measure success of a race or other such even or organization by how many runners or hikers you get out or how much money it brings to a local economy, or how much less damage it does than trail bikes, or ATVs.

Deliberate. Respect others, and the trail. Revere nature. Then I suppose do what you gotta do.

And on the BMT, for God's sakes, work with the Rock and listen to what he is saying. He's a good guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXX2n7sHSAg

bgood
01-15-2013, 10:48
I've passed endless lines of boy scouts for a ten mile section on the AT. and other sections of the Pinhoti with MTBs. who are we to say they can't be on the trail? If you are camping, this is not the Marriott, you have to take what happens, hikers, runners, weather, animals. I've passed campers in the middle of the night moving because of bears.
You plan for the worst, hope for the best!

mfleming
01-15-2013, 11:42
Good luck with the race!

SGT Rock
01-15-2013, 11:48
You plan for the worst, hope for the best!

You are right about that.

I'm going to call a truce at least from my end. My house is flooding from all this rain and it looks like I'll be more busy here for the next few weeks and even when I'm not, I don't have the energy to keep up with this. I can barely stay awake now and still have a lot of work to do.

Hopefully this isn't my karma for being on the side I am on for this debate.

Good luck.

max patch
01-15-2013, 11:58
Looks like Run Bum has also decided to adopt the low key approach to this.

His comments above which I posted - at his request and he thanked me for doing so - have been removed from his event facebook page.

I think both Rock and Run Bum are decent guys who love the outdoors and just happen to have a difference of opinion on this subject.

SGT Rock
01-15-2013, 12:04
Looks like Run Bum has also decided to adopt the low key approach to this.

His comments above which I posted - at his request and he thanked me for doing so - have been removed from his event facebook page.

I think both Rock and Run Bum are decent guys who love the outdoors and just happen to have a difference of opinion on this subject.Agreed. Similar to you and me on the definition of a thru-hiker right.

max patch
01-15-2013, 12:21
..

Agreed. Similar to you and me on the definition of a thru-hiker right.

Exactly.

Sly
01-15-2013, 12:40
Here is the whole sad story.

His goal was to average 50 miles per day.

http://www.runbum.com/?p=495 Day 1=53 miles in 16 hrs
http://www.runbum.com/?p=629 Day 2=31 miles in 12.5 hrs
http://www.runbum.com/?p=634 Day 3=39 miles
http://www.runbum.com/?p=639 Day 4=26 miles in 7.5 hrs
http://www.runbum.com/?p=647 Day 5=16 miles in 5.5 hrs
http://www.runbum.com/?p=660 Day 6=33 miles

He quit due to severe intestinal distress, brought on by lack of food and water.

Seems to me it may have been brought on by writers cramp. Jeez, walk more, write less.

Bati
01-15-2013, 21:54
If they get the permits, let's hope the weather is good. Where I live, many mountain biking trails are closed after each good rain and these closure decisions are made by the mountain bike clubs that maintain the trails. For the footpaths that host mostly walkers and runners, there are no closures. Needless to say, the erosion on the bike trails is nill, but some low-lying areas on the hiking trails a multitude of paths have been created to skirt the mud puddles. Less traffic after each heavy rain, a short trail closure or trail improvements (such as bridges) would solve the issue. I hope nothing similar happens to the BMT as the damage can last for a long time.

stradbash
03-25-2013, 09:36
Hi Folks!


I was one of the Muldoon clowns who participated in this race. I ran across this message board while looking for the race reports of others.


We did indeed have good weather and there were only a few short sections where I saw that soil might have been displaced because of softness. I was toward the back of the very much strung out "pack".


I'd guess that despite the great weather I only encountered 20 other trail users during the time I was on the 38 miles or so of trail that we used. Trail runners are largely a different sort of folks than those who mostly do races on roads and we do not habitually leave trash on the trails we run. I can assure you we left the trails in better shape than we found them. The race director put it in the rules that any runner who littered could be disqualified. He also, as mentioned earlier in this thread, offered a cash prize for whomever picked up the most trash. A (much faster) friend took on this challenge and hauled quite a bit of litter, including water bottles and cans, in his pack to the finish line and figures he took an extra hour in doing so. Another runner hauled a discarded atv tire to an aid station for disposal. I'm sure there were plenty of other runners who picked up stuff along the way too. Myself included.


Also in the race rules was that everyone else on the trail had the right of way! Of course in practice the boy scouts and others were more than happy to have a break and step off the trail even though runners might have deferred.


I can well appreciate that it would be no fun to have a bunch of folks passing trough ones campsite for number of hours! At least this time what seems to have happened in practice is that the only occupied campsites I saw were off the forest service roads we used. I fully suspect the folks who suffered the most disruption from our passing were those with dogs who lived along the few miles of paved roads we ran.
For what it is worth..., I run weekly on a trail near my home in a Michigan state park. There is one large race each year on these trails. I don't much like it as I prefer to run when there are fewer folks on the trail, but do the race every few years. I am always amazed in the week after the race how little evidence there is that the race happened!


We had a great time and very much enjoyed the Georgia state parks and the trails we used to access them. They were quite the challenge for this flatlander!