View Full Version : GPS advice???
Need to purchase a GPS for my trip out west. As much as I would like to take along a voice activated trail guid, hhee, hhee, ha, ha. Instead I'm goin with the lighter version of technology. Any advice?
tlbj6142
06-04-2005, 11:50
Don't worry about mapping functions as the backcountry maps don't show enough resolution. So, all you need is an unit that tells you where you are and where you need to go (next waypoint). Used with a good topo map, a 5yo couldn't get lost. GPSr maps work fine for streets, but not the back country.
That said, you can buy the cheapest unit available. Like the the eTrex Yelllow (does not have a PC interface). If you want to spend a few more bucks, I'd get the eTrex Legend (non-Color, I own one of these). It does mapping if you ever want that and also has WAAS support (higher accurracy helps when looking for geocaches, but doesn't mater too much in the back country).
If you want to blow even more money, get the eTrex Legend C. Battery life is longer, it has more memory for road maps, and a few other features that are "cool", but not really needed.
You don't need an altimeter unless you want to track the weather. As the altiutude mode is about worthless and you get the same info from GPS. Besides, who cares if you are at 10500' or 10600'? If you know where you are on the map, the topo lines will give you your altitude.
Even though I think it is more fun to hike without them for several reasons, I don't have any problem with those who do. Fiddlehead would be a good source. I'd contact him if you don't get the answers you need/ he misses this thread. BTW- bjack is getting lighter everyday! :) ENJOY
Blister,
I concur with tlbj6142. Resist the tempation to purchase a GPS with a lot of bells and whistles.
The yellow Garmin eTrex is a great value! The list price is $106.24. Amazon often sells it for less, including free shipping. It is simple to operate and can be learned in minutes. Because it has fewer functions, battery life is nearly double that of the other units mentioned. The yellow eTrex does have a computer interface (the cable is sold separately).
I absolutely agree with tlbj6142 regarding mapping functions. A postage stamp size map screen is useless, IMO. A GPS does not replace a real map.
Roland
Don't worry about mapping functions as the backcountry maps don't show enough resolution. This is simply not true. The map that comes packaged with most mapable GPS's is an average road map, but for $120 you can get Mapsoource, electronic downloadable topos for the entire country.
Garmin Mapsource has excellent resolution, good enough that I use my 60CS for bushwhacking.
Garmin has a demo on their website. Go here:
http://www.garmin.com/cartography/mapSource/topo.jsp#
and on the right side of the screen, under Mapsource VIewer, click on East, West, Alaska or Hawaii. Use the mouse to click the map and zoom in and in and in some on a mounain with which you are familiar. Keep clicking and check out the resolution. Use an area with trails, and the trail will likely be there, also.
The maps cost $120, and a GPS that will accept them will be at least $300, so they aren't cheap. But poor resoluton isn't a reason not to get them.
A virgin with a GPS that is, has to happen at least once in my life. Question as far as the way points are concerned....
The GPS that I am looking at can store trips. It also comes with software that I would have to load by the state. Question being can I store in the trips menu, multiple state markers? Meaning points in Wyoming and Colorado. I can't see the logistical nightmare of sending the software to each state I cross and then logistic of getting to a computer to load it all. Granted this is just a bach up mechanism to the good ole map and compass. I'm just trying to be prepared.
This is simply not true. The map that comes packaged with most mapable GPS's is an average road map, but for $120 you can get Mapsoource, electronic downloadable topos for the entire country.
[/url]
I'd much rather have larger overview than futzing around with a small screen. I find I often need the larger overview that the small screen on a GPS does not give. And, I often go off trail (without a GPS, mind you..though I have one). It is the KISS principle. I can pull out a 7.5 quad, look at the map and know where I am quickly. Or I can push buttons and zoom in and zoom out. No thanks.
My standard shpeel on GPS (originally written on PCT-L):
A GPS is a nice complement to a map and compass.
However, if you are weak with map and compass skill to
begin with, a GPS is not going to help you. A GPS is
good for what I call the "***" factor: "Where the
Frick" am I?!?!? I usually substitue a stronger word
for frick.
If you do not know how to read a map that well,
knowing you are at:
N 40° 00.222 W 105° 15.905
UTM: 13T E 477373 N 4428201
does nada if you can't place it on a map. If you can't
read a compass and know that Forester Pass is 20°
from the *** place on the map, a GPS won't help. If
you can't read a map, you won't know that the GPS
arrow is pointing you directly into a ravine between
you and the destination.
On the PCT, you should not get so lost (not LOST...if
you get LOST, you really are in trouble) as to not
know where you on the map. If you know where you are
on the map, you can take a compass bearing and plot
your course accordingly.
I find a GPS is handy for two situations:
1) A trek where I am doing basecamp and going off
trail Make the basecamp the waypoint. This type of
scenario does not (usually) happen on thru-hikes
2) Going off trail in places where there are not
really too many distinguishing landmarks (like canyon
country in Utah). Yeah...I can triangulate, but it is
easier to to press ON and know *** I am. Use a preset waypoint
to get back. Note: I've only done this above canyon in
Utah. When off trail in place with many distnguishing
marks (Colorado...or the High Sierra), find a GPS not
needed. Traingulation is pretty easy. Of course, I've
practiced over the years (see a theme? :D)
For a PCT hike, to really make the GPS useful you'll
need to do pre-set waypoints for various places
(Forester Pass, Muir Pass, etc.). Again, if you are
not confident using a map and compass, a GPS will not
help all that much.
.......
To make this post CDT specific: A GPS is a nice complement..NOT a supplement to a map and compass. The CDT can certainly help a little more with the *** factor more so than the PCT and certainly the AT. However, I find that out west, it is very easy to triangulate if need be. Read CDT journals on www.trailjournals.com. Some people swear by a GPS..some say swear at them. :)
PRACTICE, PRACTICE and do MORE PRACTICE with the map and compass.
A great online resource is:
http://www.learn-orienteering.org/old/
Many outting clubs will do an inexpensive course, too.
Also, if you want to learn more about GPS, this site
is great for the basics: http://tinyurl.com/3xmqa
And though it is too late for you, I plan on doing a LandNav 101 workshop at the ALDHA Gathering this October. If I can do this stuff..anyone can. :D
I got to learnn my basic map and compass back in 96 when I thru hiked the PCT with Fiddlehead and Rainman. It was alot of fun having at some times 4 people arguing over where we were and where we were headed. So I have the basics and the GPS will essentially be the back up. I do like the idea of having a new toy though
tlbj6142
06-04-2005, 14:04
This is simply not true. The map that comes packaged with most mapable GPS's is an average road map, but for $120 you can get Mapsoource, electronic downloadable topos for the entire country.
Garmin Mapsource has excellent resolution, good enough that I use my 60CS for bushwhacking.A co-worker of mine has this software (found it somewhere for $60?) and on his eTrex Legend-C it appears to be about useless, the topo lines just don't show enough resolution and the map is too small to get a lay of the land sort of view. Maybe it was the terrain I was looking at (small hills with only 100-300' heights). But I have heard (read) similar comments from others.
tlbj6142
06-04-2005, 14:20
I find that out west, it is very easy to triangulate if need be.Good point. The terrain has a lot to do with how easy a compass vs. GPS are to use. With small hills that all look the same, triangulation is a bit more difficult (not impossible), whereas when you have big fricken mountains, its almost too easy to triangulate.
Same is true for forest coverage, using a compass when you can't see more than 50 feet in front it is very difficult to triangulate. But, then, your GPSr might not get a signal either.
In flat areas, triangulation is diffiulct as well.
Need to purchase a GPS for my trip out west. As much as I would like to take along a voice activated trail guid, hhee, hhee, ha, ha. Instead I'm goin with the lighter version of technology. Any advice?
LEAVE IT @ HOME! hehehehehehe
I'd much rather have larger overview than futzing around with a small screen. I find I often need the larger overview that the small screen on a GPS does not give. And, I often go off trail (without a GPS, mind you..though I have one). It is the KISS principle. I can pull out a 7.5 quad, look at the map and know where I am quickly. Or I can push buttons and zoom in and zoom out. No thanks.Sure, that's personal preference. I have no problem zooming in or out, any more than handling a paper map in the wind :)
My response was geared to the comment that GPS's do not have good resolution. They do. They don't have postage stamp size screens, either, but zoom buttons, 2x4 in screens, and resolution aren't reasons for not having a GPS, just manifestations of a decision already made not to use a GPS.
Whether or not you want to use one is personal preference. Gas or electric stove? Standard or automatic car? Glasses or contact lenses? NOBO or SOBO?
GPSs and paper maps are less helpful if you don't understand terrain and navigation, but a total neophyte can look at a blinking cursor, see where he/she is, where the trail is, and where the road is. It takes skill to do that with a map. Finding where you are on a map takes skill. If you can wander around in the woods off trail, put out a paper map, and know where you are quickly, God Bless You. You must be part homing pigeon.
Going off trail, with or without a GPS is an adventure. I've found it much easier with a GPS. If I wanted to make it harder, I cokuld leave the GPS behind, but generally, I'm just goofing around in the woods..."Wonder if I can get to Chuckhole Road without crossing Skuzball Creek?" Or, I wonder if I take this unmarked snowmobile trail, if I can bypass Slog Summit?"
Usually I do not carry a GPS, especially if I am with a group. On the AT, I like the ATC map set.
Small screens are sometimes annoying. Someday they will perfect folding, paperthin electronic screens, but I suspect the anti-GPS crowd will find another reason to dislike them.
My own opinion is that GPSs are most useful to either end of the navigation-skillset extremes. Very knowledgable navigators can make full use of their capabilities. People hopelessly ignorant of navigation, and with no desire to learn, are also prime candidates to keep from getting lost. These are the folks who do not know how to use map or compass, and a GPS with mapping capabilities to them would be very helpful.
Middle of the roaders (navigation skill wise) could use either paper or GPS map to advantage.
S, and know where you are quickly, God Bless You. You must be part homing pigeon.
Or I just pay attention. :) There is LOST and there is lost. I have never been LOST. Put me in the middle of the woods where I have been blind folded then hit over the head..then yeah, I would get LOST. :)
G keep from getting lost. These are the folks who do not know how to use map or compass, and a GPS with mapping capabilities to them would be very helpful.
:eek:
People who do not now how to use a map and compass should NOT be doing off trail. If they want to use trails, they should stick to something very easy to follow like the AT. Even then, if they can't read a a map they are SOL if something happens.
Much like a the person who advocated not carrying a shelter on the AT, I can not advocate telling people that a GPS is a good alternative to novices. If the batteries go, or the GPS breaks, they are SOL.
I'll sayt it again. A GPS is a COMPLEMENT not a SUPLEMENT to a map and compass.
You will not really know how to use a GPS unless you understand elementary navigation concepts.
Remember, I use a GPS (mainly in Utah) ...I just think the mapping tecnology is not up to snuff at this time. I am not anti-GPS. Just anti-solutions that don't work.
People who do not now how to use a map and compass should NOT be doing off trail. If they want to use trails, they should stick to something very easy to follow like the AT. Agree. They shouldn't. Can't stop them, though. I'm sure just as many boneheads get lost out west as back east. They don't carry maps and couldn't use them if they had one.
I can not advocate telling people that a GPS is a good alternative to novices. If the batteries go, or the GPS breaks, they are SOL.True, but no worse off with a broken GPS and no maps than no GPS and no maps. I am in total aagreement with you that people who go into the woods should be proficient with map and compass and carry both. Where we disagree is that I think the boneheads who get lost don't carry maps and cannot read them in they did. Folks like this would benefit from having a GPS. The only problem I see is that it may make them even more inapparopriately confident than they already are, and given their lack of prepartion, they are unlikely to carry extra batteries, or even ensure that the batteries in their GPS work.
I'll sayt it again. A GPS is a COMPLEMENT not a SUPLEMENT to a map and compass.
Sure, but that is your opinion, not some kind of universal law. Looked at objectively, a GPS is merely an alternative form of a map and compass. Both perform the same function. Each have slightly different advantages and disadvantages. One is not always better than the other in all situations.
We all have preferences, and yours obviously runs to paper maps. But that only means it is the best way for your comfort level. Others have different opinions.
I'm not trying to be a punk, but your way isn't the only way or necessarily the best way for everyone. As far as novices go, as I said, it would be better if they learned to read map and compass and carried both. But of the people who get lost without either (map/compass or GPS) I think they would be better off with a quality GPS.
One case in point. A couple years ago about six youngsters got lost coming off Mt Lafayette. They went up in the winter and hit snow. On the way down, in a near whiteout, the leaders (who knew the way) outdistanced the slower followers, who came down just on the wrong side of the ridge and ended up in the Skookumchuck area.
They ended up in the trees in deep snow and no snowshoes, but continued believing they were headed for Franconia Notch. They were rescued, but consider what would have prevented the need for a rescue form the time they were lost.
(I know you can say they leaders SHOULDN'T have left their charges behind, but they did. The point is, six people on Mt Lafayette in a white out. At this point what good is a map? To them, no good becuasse they couldn't tell where they were in the white out. A compass could tell them to head west, but they were on the wrong side of the ridge and would have a horrible trip. A map-capable GPS would show them where they were, where the trail was, and where the Greenleaf Hut was. No skills required.
Again, I don't recommend people not learn how to use a map and compass. But I do acknowledge that people WON'T learn, and sometimes having a map-cabable GPS would save them.
Another case, again on Lafayette, was Brenda Cox last year. She died when she and her husband was confused in a whiteout and took off towards Garfield instead of the Bridal Path. Here a compass and map might have helped with several checks they could see that theywere consistently going in the wrong direction. In a white out, you really can't take one reading becasue the trail might not always go in its ultimate direction. With a GPS zoomed in high resolution, they could easily have seen within a hundred yards that they were on the wrong trail and turned back before it was too late.
And a hiker who died on South Twin here in NH, who was a ranger and very proficient with map and compass, tried to make it from the Bonds over So Twin and down Gale River Trail even though the trip to Zealand was closer. Reportedly, in a cell phone conversation, he was concerned that he would take the wrong ravine down towards Zealand. At 40 below and gale force winds on a treeless ridge, what good is a paper map? A GPS would have shown him when to turn toward Zealand.
I bought my own GPS a week after Brenda Cox died, influenced by her death and the ranger's. I sincerely believe that if either had the GPS I bought (Garmin 60CS) they would be alive today.
BTW, if I can, I'll attend your navigation prenetation at the Gathering. Two years ago, I wanted to attend a workshop you put on, but events conspired....
And the beat goes on........
Nothin better than a good ol bearing tree I'd say back in the day
fiddlehead
06-05-2005, 00:10
Blister, 1st of all there's 2 (main) reasons for carrying a GPS out there: 1/ to find out where you are on a map once you are lost. and 2/ to find a place/spring/trailcrossing/etc. that you have never been to before if course there's 3/ finding a place you have entered into the GPS because you were there before.
The newer GPS's also have a map inside and if you download the detailed version, can be quite good sometimes to help you figure out where you are. But beware the maps are very often not accurate or there is no trail!
I wish i knew your plans. Are you hiking the CDT? if so, look up Jonathon Ley, he gives out a CD of all the maps for free. (donations' accepted) you should go to the CDT-L to find out lots of info on routefinding and GPS. But you didn't say CDT. But knowing you, i have afeeling you are at least getting prepared for it. Great!
If not the CDT and you are just hoping to "stay found" and using a GPS to help you do it, first of all, it sounds like you are looking at one of the GPS's that has a map inside. The problem with these on the CDT is you would have to load software from a computer onto the GPS and that is just not feasible on the CDT. But if you are going out there for a week or two, you can do that at home before you go. Beware that the CDT on the maps is not always the CDT. The maps do not show the trail and there are many routes you can take. Bushwhacking about 25% of the time is the norm.
If you are using Forest service or BLM maps, you should learn to figure out where you are on these maps with a GPS using a waypointer guide. (i explain this in lynn wheldon's how to hike the CDT video) It is not very easy for a novice to learn but once you are completely lost a few times, you will get the hang of it. you can get therse waypointer guides at a store in Alburquerque called Holmans. They have both latitute/longitude and metric versions. I am used to the lat/long so, if you want me to try to explain all of this thru emails, i'd go that route.
Before i get into all that, let me know what maps you are using. If you are going to print your own before you go, you can add grid work to the maps which is a great idea because once you get lost, you can punch in one of the crosshairs of the gridwork and see how far and what direction you are from the point you entered. I'm hoping this makes sense, emailing this technique could be a challenge. Anyway, i am going to wait for your reply on the maps you have or don't have or where you are going before explaining too much.
If you are hiking in CO, they have TI or Trails Illustrated maps for most of the whole state (at least the rockies) these are the maps that all National parks use and they have tickmarks on the sides and top and bottom to give you the degrees in lat/long that will enable you to tell where you are. OK, waiting for your reply. fiddlehead
MedicineMan
06-05-2005, 00:31
http://www.garmin.com/products/foretrex101/
It uses 2 AAA's easily replaceable and weighs only 2.6 oz
You can download waypoints to it and upload tracks when you get back.
I've used it on the AT tracking a section then uploading and comparing what i just hiked to what the Mapsource programs thinks the trail is...reroutes stick out like a sore thumb. The clincher is the weight.
i got one,dont use it:cool: neo
I have a Magellan SporTrak Pro and use it a lot. The topo map is great and shows exact, minute detail for almost all areas. Sometimes it will lose communication for a short while, maybe down in valley. It shows most creeks, and it shows elevation changes, summits, mountaintops by name, etc. It is great for marking campsites to reach or to remember for future trips. It's good for marking trail access points, parking spots, etc. Mine only shows the A.T. in some areas, but it shows all the shelters. I use it planning a trip's logistics. It's easier for me to check out everything on my PC, like distance to be covered to get to water, etc. Then I can create a route or make waypoints to download to the GPS. I can customize the map's size and level of detail. I can also email the coordinates (in a format we both use) for parking spots to my hiking friends, to make it easier to meet at the start of a trip. Eliminates misunderstandings and the possibility of not being in the right spot while someone waits elsewhere!
There is a thread here about using a bike to shuttle for a hike - I used my GPS to plan such a trip. I was able to look over the elevation data (on my PC), determine how much uphill pedaling would be involved, and where to hide the bikes. I chose a spot near the Blue Ridge Parkway that I could tell was steep and most likely covered with brush. I emailed the "profile" of the bike ride part to my buddy, so he could check it out.
I can only backpack for a few days at a time, so the weight is worth it for me. I do carry a tiny paper map, too. I think GPS would be LESS useful on a long trip than for my short ones.
Alot of great points have been raised. FH as far as maps - we have alot of yours! I'm sure you heard I talked Rainman into going and Blueman is tossing around the idea of an extended hike out there as well. I had quite a few laughs reading all the little notes and such both you and Pieps have written. Pieps sent over a ton of info. We are going through the maps and books right now, seeing what is missing and what I need to get. It is so amazing how many folks are getting behind us on this, and damn with friends like mine - the answers are all out there somewhere. All I have to do is walk it!
Peace Out
Pencil Pusher
06-05-2005, 20:28
A couple years ago about six youngsters got lost coming off Mt Lafayette...
Another case, again on Lafayette, was Brenda Cox last year. She died when she and her husband was confused in a whiteout...
At 40 below and gale force winds on a treeless ridge, what good is a paper map? A GPS would have shown him when to turn toward Zealand...
So it seems these three examples took place in cold winter conditions where the gps is prone to failure. The screen just doesn't like the extreme cold. Especially in the last example, I doubt the GPS would've done him beans for good as it simply would not have powered on nor been able to go through it's satellite acquisition.
So it seems these three examples took place in cold winter conditions where the gps is prone to failure. The screen just doesn't like the extreme cold. Especially in the last example, I doubt the GPS would've done him beans for good as it simply would not have powered on nor been able to go through it's satellite acquisition.I've used GPSs down to -15, but you could be right and I could merely have been most forunate. I've just never seen any actual data showing that GPSs are or are not "prone to failure" in cold weather, or that screens won't work in cold weather. I'd be very interested if you (or anyone here) knows of a study done on reliability in cold weather.
I have found that battery life is pretty short in very cold weather, though I think that is more of a function of the battery than the GPS. In winter, I carry my spare batteries close to my body, not in my pack.
superman
06-05-2005, 22:23
Tex and I each carried a Garmin e-trex vista on the CDT this spring. We carried maps in the top of our packs while we carried the GPS in our pant pockets. This made it convenient to check our progress as we hiked without stopping. We had the Mapsource software that showed trails, jeep roads, etc. and the waypoints we had loaded in advance of hiking. A GPS isn't needed on the AT but it can be helpful on other trails. I've had the GPS in my pocket on short winter snow shoeing hikes and never had any trouble with it.
tlbj6142
06-06-2005, 10:16
We had the Mapsource software that showed trails, jeep roads, etc. and the waypoints we had loaded in advance of hiking.Which mapsource software? The Topo stuff, or just the normal road stuff?
A
One case in point. A couple years ago about six youngsters got lost coming off Mt Lafayette. They went up in the winter and hit snow. On the way down, in a near whiteout, the leaders (who knew the way) outdistanced the slower followers, who came down just on the wrong side of the ridge and ended up in the Skookumchuck area.
... snip ..,
I bought my own GPS a week after Brenda Cox died, influenced by her death and the ranger's. I sincerely believe that if either had the GPS I bought (Garmin 60CS) they would be alive today.
Frosty, to be blunt all those people died because they were unprepared. Period.
We all make bonehead mistakes (myself included, believe me)..but one of the main outdoor skills is to know when to not go ahead. All those people went ahead went they shouldn't have. A very common condition in the Whites.
All the people you mentioned (including the ranger) went out in conditions they should not have been in. No device will help you with exposure. :) But that is another discussion.
Read "NOT WITHOUT PERIL" sometime. Interesting read.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1929173067/002-7784574-4528835?v=glance
Alot of great points have been raised. FH as far as maps - we have alot of yours! I'm sure you heard I talked Rainman into going and Blueman is tossing around the idea of an extended hike out there as well. I had quite a few laughs reading all the little notes and such both you and Pieps have written. Pieps sent over a ton of info. We are going through the maps and books right now, seeing what is missing and what I need to get. It is so amazing how many folks are getting behind us on this, and damn with friends like mine - the answers are all out there somewhere. All I have to do is walk it!
Peace Out
Blister, have you checked the archives of CDT-L? Lots of good notes there (including re-supply info and such).
http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/cdt-l/
Was going to do the CDT this year..but now going to Italy instead for a spell. What a boy will do for good Italian food. :)
greymane
06-06-2005, 12:37
I have used over a dozen different types of GPS units. Each has some advantage and disadvantage. The best way to narrow the list is go into a store that carries several models and play with each. What feels good in your hand and has good button placement is what you should go with. Performance varies very little among the major players.
Footslogger
06-06-2005, 12:45
IWhat feels good in your hand and has good button placement is what you should go with. Performance varies very little among the major players.======================================
Couldn't agree more. Been a while but I used to demo and sell GPS units at an outfitter. Comparing specifications may be one way to get up to speed on the various units/features but in the end it's how well it "plays" where the rubber meets the road. Sometimes the units with all the hot bells/whistles can be a real hassle to deal with out in the woods. If you have to drag the manual with you (after the first couple trips) on a hike to figure the unit out ...well, you know.
'Slogger
Lots of opinions out there as per usual. Well I went ahead and bought a Garmin e-tex. And thus far I can say it will just "compliment" my already navigational skills. I'm guessing it could be relativley important as already mentioned in a bad weather situation. If I am completely socked in and can't make out the geography around me to relate it with my map, plugging in my next destination way point might be the way to keep going. I always carry a map in compass with me. Even on the AT - which the compass was NEVER used. I guess when I return, I will give ya'll my own opinion. :)
Pencil Pusher
06-06-2005, 18:13
I've used GPSs down to -15, but you could be right and I could merely have been most forunate. I've just never seen any actual data showing that GPSs are or are not "prone to failure" in cold weather, or that screens won't work in cold weather. I'd be very interested if you (or anyone here) knows of a study done on reliability in cold weather.
I have found that battery life is pretty short in very cold weather, though I think that is more of a function of the battery than the GPS. In winter, I carry my spare batteries close to my body, not in my pack.
From perusing both Magellan and Garmin's websites, I checked out two products each, from both. The acquisition/start-up time increased significantly for a 'cold' versus 'warm' power up. But those terms are a little loose, eh? However the specifications showed a low of 5 and 14 degrees Farenheit operating temperature, Garmin and Magellan respectively.
Now whether you've been fortunate or I've been unfortunate, who knows;)
The Old Fhart
06-06-2005, 19:01
The acquisition time from a "cold start has nothing to do with temperature. To quote the Magellan manual:
Initializing the Meridian decreases the time it takes to get a position fix during cold start. What is meant by a cold start is that the Meridian has no reference to use as a guide to tell it what satellites should be overhead. Without a reference to start with, the Meridian will have to “search the sky” trying to find any satellite that may be in “view.” This takes time and can increase the time it takes to get its first position fix. (Can take 10 minutes in severe conditions.)So a cold start could take place on a hot day, and a hot start could take place on a cold day. :)
Pencil Pusher
06-06-2005, 20:22
The acquisition time from a "cold start has nothing to do with temperature. To quote the Magellan manual: So a cold start could take place on a hot day, and a hot start could take place on a cold day. :)
I stand corrected then. Thanks dude.
Frosty, to be blunt all those people died because they were unprepared. Period.
We all make bonehead mistakes (myself included, believe me)..but one of the main outdoor skills is to know when to not go ahead. All those people went ahead went they shouldn't have. A very common condition in the Whites.
All the people you mentioned (including the ranger) went out in conditions they should not have been in.I know. It's just that in the post mortem, one looks and says, "what could have been done?"
In the Cox's case, three separate groups coming off Lafayetter advised they turn back because the weather on top was bad and getting worse. I don't mean to say that there is a magic bullet. They could have, should have, turned around. Should have recognized that the traill the took off Lafayette wasn't the Bridal Path. Mostly, when they hit the Skookumchuck Trail, they shold have gone down it into the trees, or even stay on Garfield Ridge trail down into the trees. I suspect they didn't because they had no maps and didn't know where the trails led. Again, winter hikers need to be smart enough to get off an open ridge.
I just see GPSs as one more life-saving tool that people are not taking advantage of. And it's too bad because even those who can't read maps can see orient themselves with a cursor.
Read "NOT WITHOUT PERIL" sometime. Interesting read.
I did. It's a great book. Boosted my own confidence level immensely when I saw how relatively prepared I was. It also validated my tendency to wimp out of hikes when things start to go south on me.
[QUOTE=Frosty. It also validated my tendency to wimp out of hikes when things start to go south on me.[/QUOTE]
There are old mountaineers. And there are bold mountaineers. There are very few old and bold mountaineers. --Anon.
I plan on being an old mountaineer myself...I tend to wimp out myself. :)
fiddlehead
06-06-2005, 22:25
Blister, sorry but i tried explaining my technique here and gave up after an hour. It looked way too confusing. Perhaps it is. So, i will just say that you need to learn it for yourself by getting lost 100 times and perhaps figureing out where you are 50 of those times. This will take, probably, the whole CDT and then you will be an expert. But to try to explain it to others is like trying to tell them how to ride a bike. I've shown Rainman, and my maps have the lat/lon lines drawn on there where i needed them so at least some of the work is done. You should get a waypointer guide from Holman's in Albuquerque. Get the lat/long model (not the UTM) because that's what i used and many notes and waypoints are written on my maps. those maps have been used 4 thru-hikes already so you may want to go over them and scotch tape them. Have a great time and try to drop me a line from time to time. Sanook (Thai for ENjoy!) fiddlehead
superman
06-06-2005, 22:29
Which mapsource software? The Topo stuff, or just the normal road stuff?__________________
TOPO plus...only way to fly.
My oppinon is that the gps has the greatest power when used with a map and compass. I have played with software, maps loaded into the unit, preplanning of way points etc. but have found that for me the most useful scenario is to use a gps gridding tool to transfer coords to the map or from the map to the unit. The paper maps gives the most detail, and being able to measure and plot coordinates removes only having a few "known" points in space. I would suggest checking out the map tools website .
www. maptools.com
The gentleman that operates this site is providing a great service with his tutorials and inexpensive gridding tools and rulers.
I like to use gps as a way to check my navigation skills. If trying to pinpoint a location I first use my traditional skills and then pull the gps out of my pack, fire it up, and check my answer. A great learning tool.
Finally, I don't always take a gps, compass, or map. Every situation is different. I don't shun the gps as being too easy. I just see it as a tool like any other.
Josh
fiddlehead
06-08-2005, 22:15
I think the most important thing that use the GPS for is to be able to show yourself where you are on your map. This allows you to be lost without really being lost. Since you are often off-trail on the CDT, if you can learn this technique, it is invaluable. I haven't used the newer gps's with the map built in. Perhaps it is accurate enough and enough detail but, how would you get the detailed software into your gps on the CDT without having your laptop in your dropbox? The waypointer guide is the only way i know of doing this unless you have grids on your maps. (if you print out your own maps, i think you could do this depending on the software)
I believe Jonathon Ley puts a known gps point in the centre of his maps so, with a distance guide on the bottom of each map. So, you could enter this point, and make a ruler to determine the distance and use your compass to determine the bearing, and figure it out that way. But if you are using Forest Service or BLM maps, the waypointer is the answer. (in my opinion of course) fh
superman
06-09-2005, 08:20
Before we went out to the CDT this spring Tex reconciled our maps with our GPS Map Source soft ware. He identified the location of the waypoints on the maps, and then he highlighted the trail from waypoint to waypoint with yellow marker. He also put a water icon at all the water sources. Then he copied the maps onto waterproof paper. Generally we had no significant problem following the CDT. As I mentioned before the GPS allowed us to confirm that we were on course as we hiked without stopping and hauling the maps out. When we planned our next hiking section we had a firm starting point to plan with. Pulling back and lowering down gives different information. Early in our hike we didn't catch that we were drifting off the trail in the desert because we hadn't dropped down low enough on the GPS. On another occasion in the Gila National Forest we took the wrong trail from a water source. We knew we weren't going toward the next waypoint but thought the trail would circle back to the waypoint. We finally realized that the trail was not going to get right. We went back to the water source and really had to look hard for the CDT. Work had been done at the water source and the clutter obscured the trail.
The GPS is a great hiking aid especially on trails that are less developed than the AT. When I hiked the AT I used a data book...no GPS, no map...no problem. The AT is not the average trail though.
fiddlehead
06-10-2005, 00:51
[QUOTE=jh24463]My oppinon is that the gps has the greatest power when used with a map and compass. I have played with software, maps loaded into the unit, preplanning of way points etc. but have found that for me the most useful scenario is to use a gps gridding tool to transfer coords to the map or from the map to the unit. The paper maps gives the most detail, and being able to measure and plot coordinates removes only having a few "known" points in space. I would suggest checking out the map tools website .
www. maptools.com
The gentleman that operates this site is providing a great service with his tutorials and inexpensive gridding tools and rulers. " end of quote
I just checked out that website (maptools.com) and i agree with his idea and use the same technique. (lat/lon, and his measuring technique is one of the things i couldn't figure out how to explain, he does ok at it.) BUT! He is trying to sell you 15 different waypoint guides for all of the different map scales that are out there. They waypointer guide that i am recommending to Blister to take along on her CDT hike has 5 or 6 of the most used (in the US) guages on their. I think there was one map that i used on the CDT that wasn't on that guide. And by that time i knew how to make my own (because i lost the one from Holmans')
I since have made my own numerous times because i now travel and hike in other countries where the scales are different. I am not going to try to explain that here. I'm not that good of a communicator (flunked english in college) but, if you learn the technique refferred to by this guy on maptools.com, and use it enough, you will be able to figure out how to make your own guide. I don't think i could've finished the CDT in one year without this knowledge. (1st time in '98) (Jonathon Ley hadn't hiked the CDT yet and put out his great maps) (the 2nd time, we had full support with the abilities to print our own computer generated maps, complete with gridwork, every time we saw the van. (and we each had a GPS with identical waypoints)
But a regular (CDT) thru-hiker will spend a lot of time trying to figure out where he is.
I carry a Garmin eTrex Legend and have been very pleased. While nothing replaces the map and compass I find it useful for seeing where I have been and where I am going. Lots and lots of opinions but in the end, if you are going to carry a GPS this is a great value.
I have hiked for 35 years particularly in the North Georgia Mountains. It is practically impossible to get lost since if you lose your bearings you can always follow streams. The very first time I took my GPS out was a little over two years ago. It was raining pretty hard and cold to boot but I was determined to find the mysterious "Swirl Falls" off of the Three Forks Trail in the Warwoman Dell NWMA. I had been there before but it had been years. I found the falls pretty quickly and enjoyed myself there, taking pictures and exploring the cascades. I lost track of time and night fell much faster than I expected. It was winter and it was raining and these combined for a surprisingly short day. Anyway, on the way back I managed to miss my turn and found myself hiking along in unfamiliar territory. I couldn't see far enough to get any real sense of where I was. I was starting to think about bedding down for the night when I remembered I had my new GPS with me and it was on. I flipped it over to "Map" mode and there were my "breadcrumbs". Once I backtracked my breadcrumbs I discovered my error and got back to my truck.
Did it save my life? No. I was prepared for emergencies so I wasn't going to do anything foolish. Could I have bailed myself out with a map and compass? Yes, when I had sufficient light. The point is it prevented me from having to spend a cold night in the woods and possibly scaring my wife into sending someone after me. She knew where I was but she wouldn't have dragged our two kids off after me in those conditions.
Anyway, there are my two cents.
Reverie