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View Full Version : New Smokies Permit fee issue and BMT



Blissful
01-26-2013, 13:14
I am seeing posts on when AT hikers should get their permits before entering the Smokies. What should be the protocol for getting your permit for the Smokies and where if you are a NOBO BMT thru hiker? DO you need to pick out the sites ahead of time and the dates when you pay your fee online? I know you need to make sure to get a print out of the permit. If I need to pick out dates and places, I suppose I'd have to do it en route rather than before I leave (? If so, where is a good place to do this?). Also wish we could get a designation of a "thru hiker" since we are starting over 50 miles outside the park boundary. Many thanks.

SGT Rock
01-26-2013, 14:07
For the BMT thru-hiker you do need to have an itinerary of where you plan to be on which day. You can make this up to 30 days prior, and if you plan to stay at Mt Sterling, Enloe Creek, or Laurel Gap shelter I suggest you make those arrangements as far out as possible (depending on the season) to make sure you get a spot. That said, I think now that you will have to pay per reservation, you are going to be less likely to see some of these sites full when making reservations, based on my experience I got the idea that groups often inflated their reservation numbers just in case someone came or to keep a crowd away. You can make the reservations all the way up until the day you need them.

Melissa Colburn of the park service told me that they will not penalize you if you need to short your mileage for safety, or in case you over plan your mileage per day. So what I read into that is have a reasonable plan in place before entering the park and if you need to stop short on a day of your hike, no one will go after you. I think in your case the hardest thing to calculate is what day you might enter the park.

As to where to do it from? Well my best guess is try to do it as early as you can. But if you cannot, there is still a phone at Twentymile and at Big Creek that can call the reservation office and you can still call into the reservation desk for your reservation and pay by credit card. I don't know if the park has a cash plan in place other than going in person to the reservation office at the Sugarlands. As I understand it, as long as you have a valid registration number they won't hassle you about a printed version. I know the plan is also to be able to send you your reservation via text message so if you have that on your phone, showing that should be just as valid as a printed permit.

10-K
01-26-2013, 14:14
Blissful if I can help you I'm happy to do it. You could give me a call when you are a few days out but close enough to have a plan and I can try and make the reservations for you from here.

SGT Rock
01-26-2013, 16:28
You know 10K, that isn't a bad idea. Maybe a service for helping BMT thru-hikers get their reservations set would be something to look into. That way they could pay their $20 a head of time to someone and when they get close enough, they can phone that person and get them to file the permit and send them the permit number via text or something.

10-K
01-26-2013, 17:51
Well, I know I was thinking about my next BMT hike being sobo - now I'm sure of it.

It'll be easier to start in the park than finish there.

Plus you can start the hike with and endless climb. :)

Tennessee Viking
01-26-2013, 19:32
I am seeing posts on when AT hikers should get their permits before entering the Smokies. What should be the protocol for getting your permit for the Smokies and where if you are a NOBO BMT thru hiker? DO you need to pick out the sites ahead of time and the dates when you pay your fee online? I know you need to make sure to get a print out of the permit. If I need to pick out dates and places, I suppose I'd have to do it en route rather than before I leave (? If so, where is a good place to do this?). Also wish we could get a designation of a "thru hiker" since we are starting over 50 miles outside the park boundary. Many thanks.BMT is going to be hard since the trail traverses through mostly remote areas right before the Smokies.

I was trying to think the same thing with the WestBound Mountains-to-Sea Trail (MST) hiker since the FMST is still trying to reconfigure the trail going into the Smokies. The MST is either going to drop down off the Parkway through Cullowhee to Sylva to Bryson City then Smokies. Or the trail is going to climb to the top of the Plott Balsams from Waynesville then run down back down toward Bryson City. MST hikers should be able to order permits anywhere starting from Waynesville.

Any plans that park offices or campgrounds will be offering the permit upon arrival. Or is it strictly online.

SGT Rock
01-26-2013, 20:02
As far as I know, there are basically three ways to get a permit.

1. Online

2. Via phone to the reservation office.

3. In person at the Sugarlands permit office.

So in your example above you can get to a park location and call the reservation office on the phone and get a permit/reservation. But as far as I know you will still need a credit card to pay. I've been told that the permit number is all you will really need if challenged. The intent is to have a paperless permit system if possible to save on printing costs.

Now about other trails and such: People operating on a cash basis are pretty much stuck going to the permit office or getting someone else to do it for them. One of the Park Service's initial ideas that is probably still a go, is for AT thru-hikers to be able to make a reservation from the NOC or Fontana and pay that place for the permit. I imagine sobo AT thru-hikers could probably use Bluff Mountain or maybe Standing Bear.

For the BMT or MST thru-hiker it is going to be a stretch. Based on this conversation I'm thinking of offering BMT thru-hikers a service where they can pay me the $20 and give me their intended itinerary for the Smokies. When they get close they can tell me when they think they will start in the park and I'll file the reservation for them from here. I've got to check with the park service and see if that will be any sort of issue. I do tend to do some back-country camping myself and don't want a bunch of other people's reservations counting against my limit of nights in the park. MAYBE this is a service the BMTA could provide to BMTA members? Something to bring up and think about with the BMTA board next meeting.

Anyhow, I think the Park Service did not take all these situations into account when they came up with the system. It is pretty much designed for someone coming from home for a 7 night or less back country camping trip that can do all that before they leave. And second thought was given to the AT thru-hiker in order to get some money out of it without making it too complicated or burdensome for them. MST and BMT thru-hikers were not considered to be much of an issue since their numbers are relatively low. What I recommend anyone considering this type of hike to do is annoy the Park Service with these questions until it bumps them into thinking about it. Squeaky wheel and all. The number they ask you to call them at concerning this is 865-436-1207.

I think it would be cool for them to get lots of calls about "how can I do this" from hikers. We at the BMTA can "what if" them all day, but actually dealing with hikers will probably move them more.

Dogwood
01-26-2013, 22:38
So, what I'm getting, I can get my GSMNP permit for a BMT SOBO hike by calling in a reservation from the ph. available at Big Creek, where I'd be starting, and using my credit/debit card, AS LONG AS SPACE IS AVAILABLE. I'd have a permit number handy for a ranger to check up on rather than having a paper issued permit in my hand or attached to my pack? Cost me $20? Thx all.

SGT Rock
01-26-2013, 23:37
You have summed it up pretty well.

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Dogwood
01-27-2013, 01:11
I have to give it up when someone knows their stuff and goes the extra mile to communicate it to others. THANX for all the BMT beta, Sgt Rock!

MuffinMan11
01-28-2013, 00:06
Sgt Rock if I didnt already have a plan in regards to the reservations I would take you up on that offer as well and it sounds like a great plan. I take it you also are involved with the BMTA? I am doing a loop hike of the BMT/AT starting this Feb/March leaving from Bill Hodges house going south first so would end up doing the Smokeys section almost last.

SGT Rock
01-28-2013, 00:15
I'm currently on the BMTA board as the director of maintenance for the TN/NC section. Last year I was the Smokies section coordinator. Bill Hodge is doing amazing stuff with SAWS.

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SGT Rock
01-28-2013, 00:17
And good luck with your hike. If I can help let me know.

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MuffinMan11
01-28-2013, 00:25
He is doing amazing work and was very fortunate to have the opportunity working with him this last summer as one of his crew leaders. I might not be back with him this year but will definitely be out on his work trips volunteering at some point once I get back out that way.

Sly
01-28-2013, 00:56
I think now that you will have to pay per reservation, you are going to be less likely to see some of these sites full when making reservations, based on my experience I got the idea that groups often inflated their reservation numbers just in case someone came or to keep a crowd away. You can make the reservations all the way up until the day you need them.


This is probably the most overlooked advantage of having the new paid reservation system. There's no doubt in my mind, many times campsites and shelters were overbooked or booked without a firm intention of utilizing the reservation.

SGT Rock
01-28-2013, 21:30
I just posted this over in the GSMNP section: http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?91896-!!!Attention-thru-hikers-and-anyone-else-going-into-GSMNP-after-Feb-13!!!

Blissful
01-28-2013, 21:58
Blissful if I can help you I'm happy to do it. You could give me a call when you are a few days out but close enough to have a plan and I can try and make the reservations for you from here.


Thanks, 10K sure appreciate it! :) And thanks for the info, Sgt Rock

Blissful
01-28-2013, 22:00
So, what I'm getting, I can get my GSMNP permit for a BMT SOBO hike by calling in a reservation from the ph. available at Big Creek, where I'd be starting, and using my credit/debit card, AS LONG AS SPACE IS AVAILABLE. I'd have a permit number handy for a ranger to check up on rather than having a paper issued permit in my hand or attached to my pack? Cost me $20? Thx all.


This is what I didn't get as I thought you had to have this paper in hand - printed out. That they wanted you to do it all online rather than by phone.

SGT Rock
01-28-2013, 22:01
You can do it by phone, but then you get the permit mailed to you or e-mailed to you so you can print it off.

Blissful
01-29-2013, 22:53
Do you have to have a printed copy or is having it on your phone good enough?

SGT Rock
01-29-2013, 22:56
According to what I have been told you will have to have a printed copy.

Blissful
01-29-2013, 23:00
Yes I just saw it on your other post, sorry. Dave Levy confirmed it, he spoke to the director. This is a royal pain, I must say.

SGT Rock
01-29-2013, 23:04
Agreed. I don't think the park service really cares either.

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Alligator
01-29-2013, 23:18
I can see that for a NOBO BMT thruhiker this could be more difficult. Has anyone ever tried to get thruhiker status for BMT hikers, meaning the same privileges as AT thrus? It's around the same mileage to the park on the BMT as it is on the AT isn't it?

SGT Rock
01-29-2013, 23:38
I can see that for a NOBO BMT thruhiker this could be more difficult.It absolutely is. trying to forecast when you will make the Smokies before you even start won't be easy. The last town where you can realistically get on-line before you get to the Smokies is probably Ducktown, and that is a long way off. Tellico Plains maybe. Fontana isn't really on the BMT, but is close. If I hiker got to Deals Gap and got over to Fontana, then you might be able to get a permit printed if the store there sets that service up.


Has anyone ever tried to get thruhiker status for BMT hikers, meaning the same privileges as AT thrus? Yes, we have asked often. I get the feeling that the Park Service thinks if they grant our thru-hikers thru status, then any other long distance trail that enters the park would also have grounds to ask for it. Like there are dozens of trail organizations trying to route their trails into the park in the first place. It would be a minor concession for the park to make for BMT and MST hikers. It would probably only affect a few dozen people a year if they did it.


It's around the same mileage to the park on the BMT as it is on the AT isn't it?It is slightly longer than the AT from Springer to the Park, and the trail through the park is also slightly longer than the AT through the park. It is about 50 more miles overall to hike from Springer to Davenport Gap using the BMT than it is to use the AT.

Alligator
01-30-2013, 00:09
That's too bad about the thruhiker designation, it would be a small concession on their part and deserved as it is farther along those two trails to boot.

Rain Man
01-30-2013, 12:34
This is probably the most overlooked advantage of having the new paid reservation system.

Agreed. I ran into Boy Scout troops that lied through their teeth about how many they booked, even when reservations were free.


There's no doubt in my mind, many times campsites and shelters were overbooked or booked without a firm intention of utilizing the reservation.


Following in the footsteps (pun intended) of American big business. Ever been bumped from a flight due to airline overbooking? I have, more than once. The Chamber of Commerce folks have made it a sad part of our culture. Maybe this will be a nudge toward correcting that unethical course.

Rain Man

.

10-K
01-30-2013, 14:50
When I hiked the BMT thru the park I scribbled "BMT thru hiker" on the permit and stuffed it on the box.

Nobody tracked me down......

SGT Rock
01-30-2013, 20:45
When I hiked the BMT thru the park I scribbled "BMT thru hiker" on the permit and stuffed it on the box.

Nobody tracked me down......LOL, good. Unfortunately those permits are about to disappear, because I think it would be funny if a bunch of BMT thru-hikers would do that.

Blissful
02-14-2013, 23:03
I was looking this reservation process over. I have no idea where I might be in the Smokies as my mileage can vary. Before there were sites that you did not have to worry about reserving as they were not rationed. Now you must reserve every single night and with a date? It's crazy to try and figure that out on a thru hike three weeks before you begin. I mean I can't imagine they will have rangers patrolling all those campsites on the BMT in case you don't make your assigned site or you want to go farther.

moytoy
02-14-2013, 23:41
I was looking this reservation process over. I have no idea where I might be in the Smokies as my mileage can vary. Before there were sites that you did not have to worry about reserving as they were not rationed. Now you must reserve every single night and with a date? It's crazy to try and figure that out on a thru hike three weeks before you begin. I mean I can't imagine they will have rangers patrolling all those campsites on the BMT in case you don't make your assigned site or you want to go farther.
A voice of reason and intelligence.

Dogwood
02-14-2013, 23:55
I mean I can't imagine they will have rangers patrolling all those campsites on the BMT in case you don't make your assigned site or you want to go farther.

I hope not because that would be BS.

Rationally though, in my experience, most NP rangers are not hard arses. But, they don't like being lied to or played with either. They know the difficulties that this permitting process can entail for long distance thru-hikers. They also know this a new system so might be a little flexible at least in the beginning especially with thru-hikers. In GSMNP, one of the most visited NPs, the NPS HAS TO HAVE some idea who's in the back country and what campsites are being used and when. GSMNP will build allowances into their reservation system just as other NPs do. They are not ignorant of the needs of different hiking situations. Stay on or close to your hiking schedule through GSMNP, be honest with them otherwise, and they will normally work with you. That's been my experience in the 40 or so NPs I've visited. On the busier AT through GSMNP or during periods or areas of higher park/shelter/campsite use thru-hikers should really give careful consideration to their campsites.