Ibuprofen, NSAIDS: For or against?

[topshelf]

A. I do not take pain killers after a hike
B. I take pain killers only if I might have injured myself(sprain, cramps, possible torn muscle, etc.)
C. I take them almost daily or daily after a hike
D. I take painkillers before, during, and after hikes to relieve the pain.



For the past 11 months I have been on a mission to lose weight. I am working my butt off and I am glad to say I have lost around 40 pounds. With the daily workouts my body was sore, so naturally after a workout I would pop in some pain killers and go about my day. After a time I noticed that I was no longer losing weight, but maintaining weight. My workouts were slowly dropping, I couldn't lift as much and I couldn't run as fast, also, my metabolism was slowing. I looked through my diet, calorie intake vs. calories burned, I switched up workout routines, and nothing. I went about 4-5 months without losing a pound. I took some time off, stopped dieting, stopped working out, and bam I had lost weight during that time period.

I thought maybe it was the painkillers keeping me from losing weight, I spoke with a friend in med school about this, and began to conduct research around the web. I am now convinced that the painkillers were impairing my body's ability to lose weight but also to perform. There is evidence that suggests painkillers do what they're supposed to, stop inflammation, but the inflammation is necessary for proper healing. Though you may feel better in the short run, say after a day of hiking. The next day you will feel worse off because you stopped your body from properly being able to repair itself. The pain and inflammation in your muscle tissue is your body repairing itself. So over time your body has more and more unrepaired muscle tissue, reducing strength and muscle performance.

Since reading up about it's effects I have stopped taking pain killers after a hard workout or a long hike. I have noticed my performance has begun to increase again. I am building more lean muscle tissue and subsequently losing excess fat again. SOOOO, I'm going to keep pain killers out of my pack for the most part, I will carry enough to handle an injury, and some for migraines, but I'm going to relieve the pain in other ways(better diet, stretching, rolling my muscles).

What are ya'lls opinions of pain killers? Do you agree or disagree with my thoughts? I see so many hikers popping pain pills, I really wonder it's true effects over the long run.

[topshelf]

First poll, sorry for the repeat of answer choices.

[Rocket Jones]

I never use them because they would react badly with a daily prescription medication I take.

[JAK]

Excellent topic. After ready "The Runners Body" which is an excellent short read. with pictures. I am convinced more than ever you should NOT mess with the bodies natural mechanisms. A little inflammation after exercise, in muscles, soft tissue, and bones, is a good thing. It signals the body to remove the weakened imperfections and rebuild it stronger. If you have something like arthritis, or bursitis, where the destructive response can get a little, or a lot, carried away, then maybe take something after a day or see a doctor, but taking it all the time especially during exercise is absolutely crazy. Another guideline is why take something that doesn't occur naturally? Well I suppose aspirin originates with folk remedies for willow bark and stuff. So the occasional aspirin or equivalent might be ok. Or chew on a twig. Yellow birch taste like wintergreen and is a nice way to clean your teeth.

[Pedaling Fool]

I'm very anti-NSAIDs, but not sure if they're the reason for your slump in performance, so many other things can cause it. I never take any type of "pain killer", but I've had those same symptoms you described, but nevertheless, the pills are much like cigarettes, makes you feel good, but bad for your overall health. Remember all the hoopla over whether smoking is bad for you...

The same argument can be made for NSAIDs, but I suspect it'll never get to that point.


BTW, I'm not saying they're just as bad as smoking, but they do adversely effect one's health.

[Pingus]

I always have a stash of ibuprofen when distance hiking. A couple at the end of each day and glucosamine in the morning. Works pretty well for me.

[JAK]

So B, I guess, but I usually wait a day to let the body do its own thing before I interfere. I do the R.I.C.E. thing right away though. Even without injury a cold shower or swim after a hike or run is awesome. Then later some heat if not injured, and wait a few days for heat if injured. Understand what your body is doing. Don't just take junk to make other people money. What primitive man would have stumbled around thinking, wouldn't life be so much better if I could be paying for all this so someone else can buy a bigger house and boat go on vacation and send all their kids to better schools?

[Slo-go'en]

I use them sparingly and have switched back to asprin for the most part. I find that a low dosage in the morning works better then a higher dosage in the evening. After the first week, I can tapper off on the pain killers all together. Long term, high dosage of NSAID's isn't very good for your liver.

[topshelf]

I heard in a podcast that like half of all ironman participants take it before a race. I like to think of long term hiking as a sport and look for comparisons, i look later to see if there's any long term data.

[Karma13]

I confess, I'd pound them like crazy if it weren't for the fact that I seem to be immune to any pain-relieving effects they have.

[garlic08]

A doctor I respect says taking pain relief is like removing smoke detectors in a fire. Pain is there for a reason. If you're hurting, you should consider doing something different, or differently. There are no pain relievers in my pack, or in my home for that matter.

An exception, of course is post-surgical pain. Whole different animal.

I have no opinion or experience with the weight loss aspect of your question.

[Sarcasm the elf]

Why don't you have an option that says " I take pain killers only if I might have injured myself(sprain, cramps, possible torn muscle, etc.) which happens almost daily or daily after a hike." ? :rolleyes:

I am a section hiker and I frequently take NSAIDs after hiking, however I would not do so if I were out for weeks on end. I think nothing of downing some vitamin I at the end of day 1 of a 2 day trip (since honestly it makes the hiking easier). However I try to limit my intake to the first couple of days on the trail, after that I use them only when there is a serious need. I know that even OTC drugs can be hard on the body, and taking them for an extended period of time will potentially cause problems.

[BirdBrain]

I avoid all medications and/or pills like the plague. There are those that need them and I am not criticizing those people. I have to be in a ton of pain before I take anything. I just believe that medications (and doctors for that matter) are hazardous to your health.

[RCBear]

I always carry advil gel caps on distance hikes or intense day hikes. They work, allowing me to hike without the constant nagging. If I need em I take em. If I don't I won't.

[colorado_rob]

I always have a stash of ibuprofen when distance hiking. A couple at the end of each day and glucosamine in the morning. Works pretty well for me.This is exacly my MO as well, and even not all days, I'd say 75% of the days I take two or three 200's near the end of the day (and Glucosamine every morning).

[T-Rx]

I do not take any medication unless it is absolutely necessary. NSAIDS are wonderful drugs for those people that truly need them but they also have limitations and potential dangers. People need to be aware of this before using them on a daily or even occasional basis. This is especially true if you also take other daily medications. Just my humble opinion.

[topshelf]

I just listened to this podcast, http://www.enduranceplanet.com/ask-the-doc-recovery-season-tips-and-more/ (Start around 11:00 or so). The doctor answers a question about taking medicine's during a face. The doctor seems to have an issue with the medicine's effect on the body during a dehydrated state. During a dehydrated state, the dosage entering your kidney or liver changes due to a lack of water in the blood and can be highly damaging if not monitored correctly. It also stated he doesnt think NSAID's have been proven to have any beneficial effects.

BTW, I really like listening to Endurance Planet (http://www.enduranceplanet.com/category/podcasts/). It's a website/podcast for endurance running, but I consider hiking to be one in the same. There's a lot of good information that can be applied over to hiking. It can be very technical at times, but good stuff.

[Dogwood]

I think you create a false reasoning by the way you pose your question "Ibuprofen, NSAIDS: For or against?"

Most things, including drugs, when taken in context for what they were meant for, and NOT abused, CAN have potential benefits. It's not an either/or nor a for/against proposition.

I'll often include some Naproxen(Alleve) on my hikes but strictly avoid popping them like candy with every pang. If, I know I'm doing a strenuous hike or starting a long distance hike not in optimal physical condition, where I'm more prone to inflammation and soreness, I much prefer including a small(.28 oz) can of Tiger Balm in my first aid kit. To me, applying a bit of Tiger Balm topically, is much less intrusive than indiscriminately popping pain medication. I witness prescription pharmaceutical, and especially pain pill popping, to be rampant not only among hikers but in American society in general. IMHO, this is not good and amounts to a form of drug pushing and possible addiction. I read some recent stats that stated 48 % of ALL Americans are on at least one prescription pharmaceutical drug! IMHO, WAY TOO MANY FOLKS, MISTAKENLY treat the consumption of pharmaceuticals, whether they be over the counter meds or not, as magic bullets that avoid addressing underlying causes created by lifestyle choices and questionable behavior!

I avoid most inflammation and pain, IN THE FIRST PLACE, by making wiser lifestyle choices, on and off trail. VERY rarely, am I in any kind of significant physical pain when I hike that I feel it necessitates a pain medication but as I said I do carry a few Alleve on hikes just in case a serious issue arises and fail to relieve the pain in other ways! I try to never forget, there arer MANY WAYS, possibly more constructive ways, to change the way I feel! If I do find I'm in pain, I too, at first, have this perspective, as Garlic states, "A doctor I respect says taking pain relief is like removing smoke detectors in a fire. Pain is there for a reason. If you're hurting, you should consider doing something different, or differently." That approach starts addressing causes rather than masking symptoms! Masking symptoms is a chief modus operandi in western medical education that OFTEN leads to rampant pharmaceutical, and sometimes illicit drug abuse, in the U.S.A.

[rocketsocks]

Currently weening down, pain killers suck, it's a trap...I do not like them. They do what they say, kill pain..well. But if your taking them for a long time as I have...it sucks. You have to take them in order for them to be effective, and when you stop....withdrawl sets in. So now you feel nausea, sweats, blurred vision, incoherant posting on fourms, and generaly feeling poorly. So you take more. Now your taking them to stave off withdrawl, and in there lay the trap. Take em if you gotta, but be careful.

Oh NSAIDS, DMARDS, yep taken them as well, tried em all, you name it all the cox-2, bextra, celebrex, Ibuprofen, Tylenol, and most all the Narcotics at one time or another, ect ect ect. Some pain killers are processed in the liver, others in the kidney's, that's the bad ones for me and mine. Asprine works great for a head ache for me, as does a cup of coffee if I caught it in time.

and on that note, time for my afternoon new VIA Blonde, oooh pretty tasty, not burnt tasting

[Train Wreck]

I take them mainly to keep my feet from hurting, which seems to occur mostly after several days of straight hiking. I really don't have pain problems otherwise.

[leaftye]

I've been taking them at the end of the day ever since I hurt my ankle a few years ago. I try not to hiking into pain, but my ankle can still feel wonky at night and keep me awake.

[Slo-go'en]

Yes, we have a pill for that.

[rocketsocks]

Currently weening down, pain killers suck, it's a trap...I do not like them. They do what they say, kill pain..well. But if your taking them for a long time as I have...it sucks. You have to take them in order for them to be effective, and when you stop....withdrawl sets in. So now you feel nausea, sweats, blurred vision, incoherant posting on fourms, and generaly feeling poorly. So you take more. Now your taking them to stave off withdrawl, and in there lay the trap. Take em if you gotta, but be careful.

Oh NSAIDS, DMARDS, yep taken them as well, tried em all, you name it all the cox-2, bextra, celebrex, Ibuprofen, Tylenol, and most all the Narcotics at one time or another, ect ect ect. Some pain killers are processed in the liver, others in the kidney's, that's the bad ones for me and mine. Asprine works great for a head ache for me, as does a cup of coffee if I caught it in time.

and on that note, time for my afternoon new VIA Blonde, oooh pretty tasty, not burnt tastingIf it wasn't already said in this thread, you can push yourself well beyond your pain while taking these meds and do serious damage to yourself, possible irreversible damage.

[Sarcasm the elf]

If it wasn't already said in this thread, you can push yourself well beyond your pain while taking these meds and do serious damage to yourself, possible irreversible damage.

Agreed. If I am hiking I will only take NSAIDs for pain and stiffness that I know to be muscular. Anything involving joints, ligaments and tendons is dealt with by babying the effected area and adjusting my trip as necessary so as not to cause injury.

I spent a couple of years taking martial arts with an instructor that did not know how to teach proper technique to avoid injury. It took several years strengthening and proper training under a much more knowledgeable instructor before I could function without knee pain. Not fun...

[Pingus]

This is exacly my MO as well, and even not all days, I'd say 75% of the days I take two or three 200's near the end of the day (and Glucosamine every morning).

exactly. take them when I think about it, roughly 75% of the time.

[rocketsocks]

A. I do not take pain killers after a hike
B. I take pain killers only if I might have injured myself(sprain, cramps, possible torn muscle, etc.)
C. I take them almost daily or daily after a hike
D. I take painkillers before, during, and after hikes to relieve the pain.



For the past 11 months I have been on a mission to lose weight. I am working my butt off and I am glad to say I have lost around 40 pounds. With the daily workouts my body was sore, so naturally after a workout I would pop in some pain killers and go about my day. After a time I noticed that I was no longer losing weight, but maintaining weight. My workouts were slowly dropping, I couldn't lift as much and I couldn't run as fast, also, my metabolism was slowing. I looked through my diet, calorie intake vs. calories burned, I switched up workout routines, and nothing. I went about 4-5 months without losing a pound. I took some time off, stopped dieting, stopped working out, and bam I had lost weight during that time period.

I thought maybe it was the painkillers keeping me from losing weight, I spoke with a friend in med school about this, and began to conduct research around the web. I am now convinced that the painkillers were impairing my body's ability to lose weight but also to perform. There is evidence that suggests painkillers do what they're supposed to, stop inflammation, but the inflammation is necessary for proper healing. Though you may feel better in the short run, say after a day of hiking. The next day you will feel worse off because you stopped your body from properly being able to repair itself. The pain and inflammation in your muscle tissue is your body repairing itself. So over time your body has more and more unrepaired muscle tissue, reducing strength and muscle performance.

Since reading up about it's effects I have stopped taking pain killers after a hard workout or a long hike. I have noticed my performance has begun to increase again. I am building more lean muscle tissue and subsequently losing excess fat again. SOOOO, I'm going to keep pain killers out of my pack for the most part, I will carry enough to handle an injury, and some for migraines, but I'm going to relieve the pain in other ways(better diet, stretching, rolling my muscles).

What are ya'lls opinions of pain killers? Do you agree or disagree with my thoughts? I see so many hikers popping pain pills, I really wonder it's true effects over the long run.I am guilty of not reading your post before I posted mine, Kinda figured I knew where this was heading, I was wrong. Very glad you have found out what works for you , and that your doing well. My situation is much different than your in as much as I do not struggle to diet, never have. But my condition/decease is one of an inflamatory nature.

Having had arthritis for years and it being passed down through the family genes, pain has been a very long and chronic companion to me and mine. getting rid of the inflamation for me, is a nessessity as it has now attacked my lungs. Prednesone works wonders, for this.

Just about 6 weeks ago I walked and all time personal best of 16 miles, and crushed my preivious record of 13 miles set back in 2005 and done on the hearing that your sick, and need to take it easy. I've never taken anything easy, always done it the hard way, my way, boy has my ego changed. Now taking it easy is all I can do. My recent accomplishment would not have been able had I not first been able to reduce the inflammation. so ya see my situation is a little different. And while I agree with you that it is a necessary function of the body, there's that little piece of human spirit that say's ....F---it go for it. but again this would not be possible for me without some level of pharmacology, and a lot of pissedoffisness. I too wish to be drug free, but at what expense.

[Praha4]

Alleve (naproxen sodium) works better for me than Ibuprofen. I use it periodically on hiking trips, to mitigate any tendonitis issues before they get bad. I have known hikers that gobble Ibuprofen (Vitamin I) like candy during their days. NSAIDs can irritate your stomach lining also, leading to loss of apptetite, bloated feeling, and stomach pain.

[Son Driven]

Makes sense to me, listen to your body, rather then take a pill to shut it up.

[coach lou]

I don't fit in the 4 choices. If I wake up and my hands hurt, if I'm hiking or I have games, I take 1 Alleve, only! It does the trick, I never take more than that in one day or three days in a row.

[jeffmeh]

While not yet definitive, there is mounting evidence that NSAIDs can delay musculoskeletal healing, and if true, this would inhibit regular muscular recovery from exertion (like hiking). So for basic aches and pains, it's probably best to avoid them. An acute injury would be another matter.

[fiddlehead]

I rarely take chemical (manmade) pills.
Sometimes I'll take an aspirin for a hangover.
I do use Arnica sometimes. In fact I'm getting some today as I sprained my wrist last week and don't want to wait the 2-3 weeks the doctor said I should take off before getting back to my tennis game.
Arnica used to work wonders for me when I was running ultra races.
Hard to find here in Thailand but, I finally found it.

[colorado_rob]

Here's a FDA study summary quote from this link. I feel pretty damn safe take 1/3rd or this 1200 mg/day doseage which has what the FDA says "negligible risks". My sports medicine doc laughed last time I asked him if I was OK taking a couple/few Vitamin I's 4-5 days or so a week.

http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/ac/02/briefing/3882B2_06_International%20Ibuprofen%20Foundation.h tm


"7. Conclusions
Based on the comprehensive review and analyses of available data, although ibuprofen is the safest of the NSAIDs there appears to be a dose-related risk for GI and renal adverse events. However, at OTC doses of 1200 mg/day or less, the risks appear negligible and there is a relatively wide therapeutic window to the commonly used prescription doses of 2400 - 3200mg/day. The key to further minimizing risks to the consumer is to continue to find better ways to encourage consumers to read, comprehend and comply with the current label warnings and directions. The IIF hopes to work closely with global regulatory bodies to communicate these public health issues to the consumer."

[Bill Strebler]

I was prescribed daily diphenhydramine (Benadryl- an antihistamine) and a fairly large dose of ibuprofen. I specifically asked if the ibuprofen would be bad for my liver and was told no. It turned out the diphenhydramine was causing what I was taking the ibuprofen for, as well as other side effects. The body produces histamine for a reason, and I really don't think blocking it all the time is a good thing. Meanwhile I was told my liver was going out. I found out that ibuprofen did, in fact, negatively affect the liver, and I quit taking it, and now my liver is fine.

Fiddlehead, do you know of a readily available arnica linament in the U.S.? I am a big fan of Tiger Balm and authentic dit da jow. Tiger Balm I happen to have right here, but I haven't seen dit da jow in years. I guess I need to find a Chinese herbal shop for that. Would they have arnica?

[Freedom Walker]

Over the past couple of years I have considerable pain in my shoulders, especially the left which I had surgery on 5 years ago, and left knee which I had surgery 2 years ago. For this I often took the pain meds mentioned . Since Sept I have been working out on a regular basis, during mostly resistance for upper and lower body. As a result most the pain I was experiencing has gone away and I only take something about twice a week. I believe that for me exercise is what I need to not need such meds. Just my two cents worth.

[rocketsocks]

Alleve (naproxen sodium) works better for me than Ibuprofen. I use it periodically on hiking trips, to mitigate any tendonitis issues before they get bad. I have known hikers that gobble Ibuprofen (Vitamin I) like candy during their days. NSAIDs can irritate your stomach lining also, leading to loss of apptetite, bloated feeling, and stomach pain.The cox-2 inhibiters were designed for that very reason, stomach problems, maybe try celabrex, bextra worked ok for me as far as nausea.

[Dogwood]

...do you know of a readily available arnica linament in the U.S.? I am a big fan of Tiger Balm...

Arnica montana is readily available in the U.S, in both ointment and capsule form. Some big box American pharmacies and grocery store pharmacy areas carry the ointment. For Arnica capsules you need to visit a healthfood store or vitamin shop like Whole Foods, Earth Fare, Vitamin Cottage, Village Shoppe, etc. Personally, I've had mildly good results with Arnica montana by itself in both the ointment and capsule forms for sprains but when used synergistically as part of therapy in conjunction with other supplements and herbs I feel it works better. Combine it with cinnamon, curcumin, and Boswella serrata for example for inflammation.

Tiger Balm is readily available at basically all pharmacies and in most pharmacy aisle grocery stores.

[Train Wreck]

Alleve (naproxen sodium) works better for me than Ibuprofen. I use it periodically on hiking trips, to mitigate any tendonitis issues before they get bad. I have known hikers that gobble Ibuprofen (Vitamin I) like candy during their days. NSAIDs can irritate your stomach lining also, leading to loss of apptetite, bloated feeling, and stomach pain.


The cox-2 inhibiters were designed for that very reason, stomach problems, maybe try celabrex, bextra worked ok for me as far as nausea.

I found that taking maybe one Aleve a day, as soon as my feet started hurting, seemed to work best. It was the really rocky sections of northern PA that bothered them the worst. Even with a couple of Aleves, my dogs howled at night so bad it's a wonder the other hikers didn't complain :)

[fiddlehead]

...do you know of a readily available arnica linament in the U.S.? I am a big fan of Tiger Balm...

Arnica montana is readily available in the U.S, in both ointment and capsule form. Some big box American pharmacies and grocery store pharmacy areas carry the ointment. For Arnica capsules you need to visit a healthfood store or vitamin shop like Whole Foods, Earth Fare, Vitamin Cottage, Village Shoppe, etc. Personally, I've had mildly good results with Arnica montana by itself in both the ointment and capsule forms for sprains but when used synergistically as part of therapy in conjunction with other supplements and herbs I feel it works better. Combine it with cinnamon, curcumin, and Boswella serrata for example for inflammation.

Tiger Balm is readily available at basically all pharmacies and in most pharmacy aisle grocery stores.

Yeah, I've seen Arnica in drug stores in the states.
I tell you, that stuff is amazing. I've had this sore wrist for a week now and today finally got some arnica and put it on. Now it's 4 or 5 hours later and it's the best it's felt in this past week. Playing tennis tomorrow and gonna go out and abuse it, so we'll see. (I couldn't even think about playing yesterday it was so sore)

Funny you ask about Tiger balm as it's something that i usually use for bug bites. (monkey balm is not as strong but smells the same)
Yesterday, in my travels, I bought some "snake oil" which turns out to smell just like tiger balm but it is liquid.
It was at a small mom and pop muslim pharmacy nearby that usually has everything.
I tried some but it didn't seem to do much for my sprain.

We have a Chinese herbalist in the town about 30 minutes away.
I didn't go there this time.
I have used him when I had hives a few years ago and all the western doctors wanted to give me steroids.
He gave me something that tasted like licorice and it took the rash away in 24 hours.
Of course he speaks no English so, it wasn't easy figuring out what he was giving me.
But, it's one of those places where they have jars with bat wings and leopard penises in them and stuff.

[Mrs Baggins]

My doctor told me to take an Advil before I started a hike, not to wait for the pain to show up. Works for me.

[OzJacko]

I voted "only if injured but in reality I do take them as a bit of a "preventative" before sleeping for the first few days just to ease overnight aches and pains.
By the end of the first week I "wean off".

[AAhiker]

I always take aleve with me when I head out for backpacking because I don't get out enough to keep my shoulders adjusted so I have a tendency to get a tension headache my first night out. Other than that I don't take it muscle soreness. And obviously I only take it if I start to get a headache, I don't pre-medicate.

[Bill Strebler]

... which turns out to smell just like tiger balm but it is liquid. ...
He gave me something that tasted like licorice and it took the rash away in 24 hours.
Of course he speaks no English so, it wasn't easy figuring out what he was giving me.
But, it's one of those places where they have jars with bat wings and leopard penises in them and stuff.

I take the lid off of the Tiger Balm and microwave it briefly sometimes to soften it. Usually I overshoot and it's liquified. Works great, though!

Herbs I'd be more trusting with, I guess, but even if I knew what they were I am sure I would be hesitant to ingest dried animal parts out of a jar- some more than others. I bet I have one of those places near me somewhere, but I haven't found one in years, and not in this area. I'll ask at the local martial arts store.

Arnica grabbed my attention because of the type of plant and it seeming to be something I should have heard of before. But, you know, I've never tried rubbing ibuprofen on my leg!

I used to hear about how every major drug had major side-effects except aspirin, but in the last several years I've heard of several. I know in higher doses aspirin acts as an anti-inflammatory, and I did use it in an extreme case years ago without issue, but I've been afraid to try it again.

I worked with a medical project in a remote foreign village once where nearly everyone suffered from frequent headaches, but similar villages in the area did not have the issue. They were all asking for free ibuprofen, so it was initially thought they were faking it, but we decided in the end it was nutritional. They were hard workers in an arid area, prone to dehydration. I know everybody is aware they need to watch nutrition, especially hydration, on the trail, but it is easy to underestimate your requirements.

[Praha4]

read this NPR story about the Pfizer whistleblower who helped the Feds in their case against Pfizer for fraudulently promoting drugs like Bextra, a popular NSAID at one time, now withdrawn from the market.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2009/09/pfizer_whistleblower_tells_his.html

[rocketsocks]

read this NPR story about the Pfizer whistleblower who helped the Feds in their case against Pfizer for fraudulently promoting drugs like Bextra, a popular NSAID at one time, now withdrawn from the market.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2009/09/pfizer_whistleblower_tells_his.htmlDidn't know Bextra was pulled. Having worked in many hospital I can say first hand that these (pretty people we called em for obvious reasons) Drug reps would set up each morning in the doctors lounge where the doctors would come in in the morning to get there mail, they were quickly bombarded with power points on poster boards, and as one nurse told us promises of warm water vacations at lower latitudes, went on all the time. Truth!

[Wise Old Owl]

I was surprised Equipment Reps were in the surgery room during surgeries.

[Spirit Walker]

When I was backpacking, I took Advil every night in order to sleep. If not, the aches in my feet and legs would keep me awake. I rarely used them during the day, because I figured I wanted to know what hurt and why. At the time, I hadn't heard that NSAIDs can slow healing. My husband uses them a lot, thanks to chronic knee and foot problems. Now that I'm running, I try to avoid pain killers as much as possible. There I have more choice: if I hurt, I don't run, whereas when backpacking I didn't have a choice: I hurt, but I had to keep moving. Seemed like as soon as my body got used to a level of activity, I'd increase the miles, so the hurt would start all over again. If not for the pain killers, we never would have finished any trail.

[4Bears]

Sorry none of those answers totally apply for me. I take Ibuprofin as needed for pain, but not necessarily every day. Sometimes for leg/knee pain other times for back pain, occasionally for a migraine. Funny I don't recall a migrane ever on a hiking trip, hhmmmm, just might be a good theory to check out for several months.

[Karma13]

Having worked in many hospital I can say first hand that these (pretty people we called em for obvious reasons) Drug reps would set up each morning in the doctors lounge where the doctors would come in in the morning to get there mail, they were quickly bombarded with power points on poster boards, and as one nurse told us promises of warm water vacations at lower latitudes, went on all the time. Truth!

I used to work for a 'medical information' company that did drug launches and stuff for pharma companies. It was shocking. A drug company would spend literally a few million dollars running a weekend vacation for doctors. The doctors sitting on a panel for a half-hour presentation would get thousands of dollars -- an 'honorarium.' And the guests (who attended free) would have golf outings, scuba diving, appearances by Jay Leno... insane stuff. And it was totally status quo. That company was one company out of hundreds doing the same thing.

[jbwood5]

Didn't know Bextra was pulled. Having worked in many hospital I can say first hand that these (pretty people we called em for obvious reasons) Drug reps would set up each morning in the doctors lounge where the doctors would come in in the morning to get there mail, they were quickly bombarded with power points on poster boards, and as one nurse told us promises of warm water vacations at lower latitudes, went on all the time. Truth!

Meloxicam (Generic for Mobic) is a cheap prescription substitute for Bextra, Vioxx, Celebrex, etc. Like all these anti-inflamitories, your body will build up a tolerance to the drug and you ultimately have to continue increasing the dosage to get relief. That is where it becomes dangerous. Chronic inflamation is a serious problem for older folks and can be helped, to some extent, with diet, light exercise, natural herbs, and occasional use of small amounts of NASIDS. I'll try to walk through discomfort and soreness the best I can, but if I have to continue for a few miles by compensating and potentially causing an off-setting injury, I'll take an Ibuprofin. I do believe it slows recovery (from my experience) and it can mask the onset of a serious long term injury, so I must be very careful. Ibuprofin seems to work faster than most NASIDS and my experience with Meloxicam is that it actually takes a couple of days to build up in your body to reduce chronic inflamation. I never had to deal with any of this stuff my younger years.

[rocketsocks]

Meloxicam (Generic for Mobic) is a cheap prescription substitute for Bextra, Vioxx, Celebrex, etc. Like all these anti-inflamitories, your body will build up a tolerance to the drug and you ultimately have to continue increasing the dosage to get relief. That is where it becomes dangerous. Chronic inflamation is a serious problem for older folks and can be helped, to some extent, with diet, light exercise, natural herbs, and occasional use of small amounts of NASIDS. I'll try to walk through discomfort and soreness the best I can, but if I have to continue for a few miles by compensating and potentially causing an off-setting injury, I'll take an Ibuprofin. I do believe it slows recovery (from my experience) and it can mask the onset of a serious long term injury, so I must be very careful. Ibuprofin seems to work faster than most NASIDS and my experience with Meloxicam is that it actually takes a couple of days to build up in your body to reduce chronic inflamation. I never had to deal with any of this stuff my younger years.Yep, taken mobic too. Your right on the money, NSAIDS take time to build up, and Vit I kicks in right away. I'm not on any Anti inflamatories at the moment, needed to take a break from them, so did my kidneys, But Prednesone ain't no picnic either. People that have autoimmune/inflammatory issues are just in it for the ride, as modern science has yet to figure this one out yet....I feel your pain!


PS, Melxoicam seemed to be better than a topical NSAID I had taken at one time called Voltaren I think it had somethin in it called Diclofenac, another one that causes renal problems....I think they all have bad side effects.....and all the natural stuff dosen't usually have good science behind it or is being blocked by the FDA for reason pretty clear... if ya prescribe to the whole grassy knoll thing, I do on some thing, pharmacology being one...big damn bossiness.

[Kerosene]

I use NSAIDS (Aleve) to try to control swelling in my osteoarthritic knees. It helps for a few days, but I doubt that I'll ever be able to go out for a month straight again unless my upcoming arthroscopic surgery works wonders.

[T-Rx]

Didn't know Bextra was pulled. Having worked in many hospital I can say first hand that these (pretty people we called em for obvious reasons) Drug reps would set up each morning in the doctors lounge where the doctors would come in in the morning to get there mail, they were quickly bombarded with power points on poster boards, and as one nurse told us promises of warm water vacations at lower latitudes, went on all the time. Truth!

Rocketsocks,
These type activities have not taken place in the pharma industry for nearly ten years now. The "pretty people" as you call them are just people working hard and trying to make a living in a highly competitive, highly regulated, cut throat business. These "pretty people" are just employees ( messengers), they don't create the message they just do as they are directed and carry the message. Many people including our government have the expectation that medications should all be totally without risks and inexpensive or free. No medication is without risks and limitations and the gov't does little to no Research & Development for new medications. That is left to private industry and the development of a single product can take up to 10-12 years and cost well over a billion $ before you have an opportunity to sell the first pill. You then are faced with a limited time period of usually 6 - 8 years to recoup the investment and make a profit to pay the bills and continue more R&D. All the while you are fighting lawyers trolling the airways looking for opportunities to sue you. In my humble opinion the pharma industry really began to decline when the decision was made that they no longer desired medically trained people and instead opted for the non medically trained people, and when we placed insurance companies instead of physicians in the position of deciding what is best for their patients. People trained as business professionals tend to focus only on bottom line profit & loss versus understanding that all medications no matter how good and beneficial have limitations and are not suitable for every patient with the disease they are designed to help. Insurance companies do not manage healthcare they manage profits versus losses. The pharma industry in the U.S. has saved, prolonged and improved the quality of life for tens of millions of people but they are certainly not without their short comings and faults. If people think the gov't will provide a better alternative than private industry in providing healthcare solutions they are in for a rude awakening! I will now step down off my soapbox and say that I offer the above information with the disclaimer that this is only my opinion as 1 individual with over 30 years experience in the pharma industry and a couple of post grad. advanced degrees in the medical field. With all this being said we still for now have the best healthcare delivery system in the world, however, this may change with more gov't control. There is a reason why people with the financial means still come to the U.S. from all over the world to get their healthcare.

[fredmugs]

I take Vitamin I as a preventive measure. I did stop taking glucosomine / chondroitin years ago for my knees issues. I gain a lot of weight over the winter and lose it during this time of year doing a biggest loser contest which I tend to win. I don't see taking Ibuprofen as a hindrance to working out or losing weight.

[Pedaling Fool]

I used to work for a 'medical information' company that did drug launches and stuff for pharma companies. It was shocking. A drug company would spend literally a few million dollars running a weekend vacation for doctors. The doctors sitting on a panel for a half-hour presentation would get thousands of dollars -- an 'honorarium.' And the guests (who attended free) would have golf outings, scuba diving, appearances by Jay Leno... insane stuff. And it was totally status quo. That company was one company out of hundreds doing the same thing.Gee, I wonder where they get the money:D

[garlic08]

I used to work for a 'medical information' company that did drug launches and stuff for pharma companies. It was shocking. A drug company would spend literally a few million dollars running a weekend vacation for doctors. The doctors sitting on a panel for a half-hour presentation would get thousands of dollars -- an 'honorarium.' And the guests (who attended free) would have golf outings, scuba diving, appearances by Jay Leno... insane stuff. And it was totally status quo. That company was one company out of hundreds doing the same thing.

And this is why, when a medical professional tells me to take a pill, I carefully review that advice.

How many people are killed in the US every year by prescription errors?

[rocketsocks]

Rocketsocks,
These type activities have not taken place in the pharma industry for nearly ten years now. The "pretty people" as you call them are just people working hard and trying to make a living in a highly competitive, highly regulated, cut throat business. These "pretty people" are just employees ( messengers), they don't create the message they just do as they are directed and carry the message. Many people including our government have the expectation that medications should all be totally without risks and inexpensive or free. No medication is without risks and limitations and the gov't does little to no Research & Development for new medications. That is left to private industry and the development of a single product can take up to 10-12 years and cost well over a billion $ before you have an opportunity to sell the first pill. You then are faced with a limited time period of usually 6 - 8 years to recoup the investment and make a profit to pay the bills and continue more R&D. All the while you are fighting lawyers trolling the airways looking for opportunities to sue you. In my humble opinion the pharma industry really began to decline when the decision was made that they no longer desired medically trained people and instead opted for the non medically trained people, and when we placed insurance companies instead of physicians in the position of deciding what is best for their patients. People trained as business professionals tend to focus only on bottom line profit & loss versus understanding that all medications no matter how good and beneficial have limitations and are not suitable for every patient with the disease they are designed to help. Insurance companies do not manage healthcare they manage profits versus losses. The pharma industry in the U.S. has saved, prolonged and improved the quality of life for tens of millions of people but they are certainly not without their short comings and faults. If people think the gov't will provide a better alternative than private industry in providing healthcare solutions they are in for a rude awakening! I will now step down off my soapbox and say that I offer the above information with the disclaimer that this is only my opinion as 1 individual with over 30 years experience in the pharma industry and a couple of post grad. advanced degrees in the medical field. With all this being said we still for now have the best healthcare delivery system in the world, however, this may change with more gov't control. There is a reason why people with the financial means still come to the U.S. from all over the world to get their healthcare.All good points, Let me qualify. 30+ years in and behind the scenes. worked for numerous pharma Co. as a process pipe installer, fitter/welder/plumber often sitting down with engineers and managers to get the job right, and often giving input when needed. have a neighbor who is a chemist and holds a patent on an very early heart med, and he told me that they had to run 110 tons of product before production. my snarky comment about pretty people stems from a front seat of a drama that took place at a remodeling of a ER hospital, this drama went on over a period weeks while a ER nurse struggle with leaving her position of ER nurse to go work as a drug rep, as she was being recruited on that job by another drug rep...she was very good looking. I agree our we have the best med industry in the world, but we have some work to do, starting right at the ground floor boots on the ground workers on up to the top policy makers, and not enough money to fix it all. HS/apprenticeship/and a whole lotta snap. Nice shootin Tex!:) oops I thought it said Tex, your from Georgia, and still, good shootin

Shoot almost forgot....yep has not happened for some time, drug rep givaways, they use to have the best pens, nicley balanced w/ a great comfortable soft grip. Why did they stop them from these givaways?........

[joshuasdad]

200 mg Vitamin I about 6-8 miles into first day's hike for prevention. Usually a second dose later in the day on long hikes because I need it for inflammation and fever. On second and subsequent days, may take first dose sooner.

[T-Rx]

All good points, Let me qualify. 30+ years in and behind the scenes. worked for numerous pharma Co. as a process pipe installer, fitter/welder/plumber often sitting down with engineers and managers to get the job right, and often giving input when needed. have a neighbor who is a chemist and holds a patent on an very early heart med, and he told me that they had to run 110 tons of product before production. my snarky comment about pretty people stems from a front seat of a drama that took place at a remodeling of a ER hospital, this drama went on over a period weeks while a ER nurse struggle with leaving her position of ER nurse to go work as a drug rep, as she was being recruited on that job by another drug rep...she was very good looking. I agree our we have the best med industry in the world, but we have some work to do, starting right at the ground floor boots on the ground workers on up to the top policy makers, and not enough money to fix it all. HS/apprenticeship/and a whole lotta snap. Nice shootin Tex!:) oops I thought it said Tex, your from Georgia, and still, good shootin

Shoot almost forgot....yep has not happened for some time, drug rep givaways, they use to have the best pens, nicley balanced w/ a great comfortable soft grip. Why did they stop them from these givaways?

Rocketsocks,
you definitely have some great knowledge of the workings of the pharma industry and sounds like your neighbor also provided some interesting insight. You also point out one of the faults of the industry that I mentioned in my post, and that is the focus on things like appearances rather than knowledge and competency. Unfortunately this problem still persist today and is the source of some of my greatest frustrations with big pharma. As far as the give aways, those stopped with the adoption of the Pharma Guidelines which do not allow reps to provide pens, notepads or anything to physicians. This is another source of great frustration as legislators tell us we cannot provide a physician an ink pen which literally cost only pennies because it may influence their decision making. This is insulting to the integrity of most physicians and infuriating in the sense that these same legislators are taking cash, sports tickets, trips, etc... from lobbyist every day and telling us that they are above being influenced by such activities. A true double standard if there ever was one. Thanks for sharing your background, it gives me a better understanding of where you are coming from. I think we both agree that our healthcare system is great but still flawed in many ways and in my opinion gov't control is going to do nothing but decrease the quality and delivery of healthcare to those in need. The pharma industry has been very good to me over the course of my career but greed and other things have tarnished it from my perspective. But unfortunately I don't think pharma is any different from most of corporate America right now. Profits are necessary to succeed and sustain a business but obscene profits at the expense of your employees and customers is a different matter. Thanks for the great discussion.

[fiddlehead]

Yes, It's not easy to find a doctor you can trust anymore.
The one I use in the states, I have known for 30 years and he is now in his 70's.
Every time I ask him when he is going to retire, he says: What would I do? He loves his job, doesn't need the money, and does it to help people.
The guy I use in Thailand always charges nothing but makes you buy lots of drugs.
I generally throw the drugs away but gladly pay for them as, last time, it was $3 a day for him to clean my wounds and rebandage them. So, I figure he has to make money somehow, right?

But yes, most of them are invited to the greed game by the pharmaceutical companies, aye?

Interesting, I was putting on the arnica yesterday when I friend saw me and asked me about it.
When I told him the wonders it did for me when I was running 100 mile races and then the tests show that it does absolutely nothing, he said: Let me guess who did the tests?
He is from Holland but they have their greedy pharmaceutical companies too.

Beware folks. Who's selling you what and why?

Trust the ancient chinese herbalist with the bat wings more than the drug store pharmacist, unless you know him to be good personally.

[rocketsocks]

Rocketsocks,
you definitely have some great knowledge of the workings of the pharma industry and sounds like your neighbor also provided some interesting insight. You also point out one of the faults of the industry that I mentioned in my post, and that is the focus on things like appearances rather than knowledge and competency. Unfortunately this problem still persist today and is the source of some of my greatest frustrations with big pharma. As far as the give aways, those stopped with the adoption of the Pharma Guidelines which do not allow reps to provide pens, notepads or anything to physicians. This is another source of great frustration as legislators tell us we cannot provide a physician an ink pen which literally cost only pennies because it may influence their decision making. This is insulting to the integrity of most physicians and infuriating in the sense that these same legislators are taking cash, sports tickets, trips, etc... from lobbyist every day and telling us that they are above being influenced by such activities. A true double standard if there ever was one. Thanks for sharing your background, it gives me a better understanding of where you are coming from. I think we both agree that our healthcare system is great but still flawed in many ways and in my opinion gov't control is going to do nothing but decrease the quality and delivery of healthcare to those in need. The pharma industry has been very good to me over the course of my career but greed and other things have tarnished it from my perspective. But unfortunately I don't think pharma is any different from most of corporate America right now. Profits are necessary to succeed and sustain a business but obscene profits at the expense of your employees and customers is a different matter. Thanks for the great discussion.Agreed bureaucracy and greed touch many industries, and when the folks on the ground go to work we pretty generaly are protective of our sweat and interests, as we should be. It's the fat cats at the top that bring my frustration......and it's difficult to know just exactly who/what that is. I too enjoyed our correspondence. Thanks! :)

[Alligator]

Guys, healthcare politics is not permitted. Thanks.

[rocketsocks]

Guys, healthcare politics is not permitted. Thanks.Copy that Alligator, thanks

[snowblind]

On trail, I was taking Vitamin I for deal w/ swelling issues of my feat and knees. Wasn't any damage, just the exertion and increased blood flow, and to get some sleep at night. Eventually weaned off, and only took it as I saw fit for swelling, soreness, or headache. Dosage point was 800mg, as anything less didn't do much. Max per day was 2400mg, which multiple Dr's said I shouldn't go beyond. And no, I haven't built up 'immunity'.

[colorado_rob]

Interesting... and highly amusing Big Pharma conspiracy Theories (or BPCT, sorta sounds like a trail name...) but I doubt if my buying the occasional bottle of 500 tablets (not pills!) of Vitamin I for 5 bucks (that's a penny a pill, er, tablet) is financing anyone's golf or ski vacation...


Makes sense to me, listen to your body, rather then take a pill to shut it up. The trouble is: my 56 yo body sometimes just won't shut up, it occasionally says:

"Robert! FOOL! I've stuck with you for about 45 years of pounding and abuse: 20 thousand miles of hiking, another 10 thousand miles of running, a couple/few million vertical feet of climbing, 20 million vertical feet of controlled-fall skiing, and at the end of yet another 20 mile day, you won't give me a lousy 600mg of Chemical Comfort? C'mon buddy!!!!"

Of course, I gladly oblige.

[T-Rx]

Guys, healthcare politics is not permitted. Thanks.

Got it Gator, thanks.

[rocketsocks]

Interesting... and highly amusing Big Pharma conspiracy Theories (or BPCT, sorta sounds like a trail name...) but I doubt if my buying the occasional bottle of 500 tablets (not pills!) of Vitamin I for 5 bucks (that's a penny a pill, er, tablet) is financing anyone's golf or ski vacation...

The trouble is: my 56 yo body sometimes just won't shut up, it occasionally says:

"Robert! FOOL! I've stuck with you for about 45 years of pounding and abuse: 20 thousand miles of hiking, another 10 thousand miles of running, a couple/few million vertical feet of climbing, 20 million vertical feet of controlled-fall skiing, and at the end of yet another 20 mile day, you won't give me a lousy 600mg of Chemical Comfort? C'mon buddy!!!!"

Of course, I gladly oblige.Now were up to 7% honest peoples, hehe

[atraildreamer]

Can't use vitamin I or any aspirin-like painkillers due to possible stomach bleeding (ulcers). Doc recommended acetominophen (Tylenol, etc.).

[Blissful]

I took way too much of this stuff and got ulcers as a result.

Drink water, don't kill yourself hiking, and take Tylenol.

[Sarcasm the elf]

Now were up to 7% honest peoples, hehe

So funny and so true!

[hauptman]

Anything bad enough to really need painkillers and you will quickly see how pointless ibuprofen is for one's suffering. They really are best thought of as anti-inflamitories, not painkillers.

[RockDoc]

Take NSAIDS only for acute symptoms (inflammation, mainly).
They likely cause damage, but sometimes it is worth the risk.
I used vitamin I recently for chondromalacia and found that it improved matters, but I've stopped as soon as the swelling abated.

[rocketsocks]

Anything bad enough to really need painkillers and you will quickly see how pointless ibuprofen is for one's suffering. They really are best thought of as anti-inflamitories, not painkillers.Oh so true. I say to the doc.............

"So are you gonna give me any pain meds"?

"Yes, NSAIDS are pain relievers by reducing inflammation"

"Yeah ok doc....whatever"!.......(socks comments under breath.... %$@#*!), haven't seen him since! ;)