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Pedaling Fool
02-01-2013, 13:34
I feel as though my body is getting too use to my runs, whether on the beach or on the road, so I'm thinking of including hills as part of my running workouts.

My typical running routes actually have some hills, yes being in Florida they're very small, but enough of a climb/descent that I can feel them. However, I do want to become more adapt to running hills, so I'm going to checkout a local bridge that crosses the Intracoastal waterway, just down the street. It's probably about 65 ft high and I think from 0 to max height is about 0.25 of a mile, but going to go measure that with my bike to make sure and set a route. I'm thinking from start to stop will be ~ 1/2 a mile, so if I do it about ten times that's ~ 5 miles and 650 ft climbing/descending.

I've been reading up on it, but if anyone has any pointers for a flatlander, feel free to share. Maybe if I really get into it I'll come run some trails in the mountains:)

http://www.fitsugar.com/Why-Running-Hills-Good-Training-557941


http://www.fitsugar.com/Learn-Love-Running-Downhill-445157

Ankle Bone
02-01-2013, 13:46
I feel as though my body is getting too use to my runs, whether on the beach or on the road, so I'm thinking of including hills as part of my running workouts.

My typical running routes actually have some hills, yes being in Florida they're very small, but enough of a climb/descent that I can feel them. However, I do want to become more adapt to running hills, so I'm going to checkout a local bridge that crosses the Intracoastal waterway, just down the street. It's probably about 65 ft high and I think from 0 to max height is about 0.25 of a mile, but going to go measure that with my bike to make sure and set a route. I'm thinking from start to stop will be ~ 1/2 a mile, so if I do it about ten times that's ~ 5 miles and 650 ft climbing/descending.

I've been reading up on it, but if anyone has any pointers for a flatlander, feel free to share. Maybe if I really get into it I'll come run some trails in the mountains:)

http://www.fitsugar.com/Why-Running-Hills-Good-Training-557941


http://www.fitsugar.com/Learn-Love-Running-Downhill-445157

I'd recommend getting a copy of Jeff Galloway's Book on Running (his first book). It has an entire section on hill running, how it can improve your speed, and how to do do hill running drills in flat parts of the world. Great info!

rocketsocks
02-01-2013, 13:54
Iv'e always set the problem up of Grade, Fall, and Length..as follows.

If you want to figure Fall, you multiply the Grade by Length
Conversely, figuring the Fall divided by Length would give the percentage of Grade

The % #'s may be as of some use to you as a way of keeping track..cheers

I always remember what G, F, L in that order as an acronym, Good, F******, Luck, just throwing19396 it out there

rocketsocks
02-01-2013, 14:02
I'd recommend getting a copy of Jeff Galloway's Book on Running (his first book). It has an entire section on hill running, how it can improve your speed, and how to do do hill running drills in flat parts of the world. Great info!I like Gallowy's Books, there like 4 Lb. pamphlets with color photos.

Old Hiker
02-01-2013, 14:23
Any tall buildings nearby? Up and down the stairs should help. Start practicing for the Heart Races some organizations have that actually ONLY run up 10-15 story buildings.

Try for very early mornings or late evenings to avoid weird looks, etc.

Rightfoot
02-01-2013, 14:34
For a different workout, try and inclined treadmill, moving slowly but facing backwards.

surfnturk
02-01-2013, 14:36
go down to Fletcher and run the bleachers ( if it's still accessble)

topshelf
02-01-2013, 15:33
First question is why are you running? What are you trying to achieve? A 65 ft climb should not be considered a hill workout, I dont see any benefit coming from it. Your body becoming used to your runs is a good thing, its telling you it might be ready for more(mileage or speed)

-But since you are on flatland, consider repeats instead of hills. You can start 1 day a week with 4 sets of 2-5 minute runs at 80-90% max heart rate followed by 1 minute of slower jogging, the workout should be preceded and followed by about 10 minute slow jog to warm up. As you feel comfortable and all 4 sets can be completed at the same pace you can add another set as you want. You may also consider running a quarter or half mile instead of running for 2-5 minutes.

-Do you do strides after any of your runs? Consider at the end of a few runs each week doing 4-5 strides to finish. Here's how I accomplish this: During the last 10 minutes of my run I do a 1 minute hard, 1 minute slow routine. During each minute of hard running I pick my pace up slightly, generally between 1-2 mph, then go back to normal pace during the other minutes.

-You may also consider taking a few days a week and lowering your mileage but picking up your running pace. I generally go down from 6 miles to 3-4 and run 1-2 mph faster(generally a heart rate of 18-185bpm for me compared to the started 155-160bpm on long runs).

-You may also think about some cross training(insanity, plyometrics) or weights a few times a week or a longer run each week(about 25% of your weekly mileage).

surfnturk
02-01-2013, 15:53
Question. Why do pro athletes run bleachers if there's no benefit?

surfnturk
02-01-2013, 15:54
or did i misinterpret what you meant?

topshelf
02-01-2013, 16:05
Question. Why do pro athletes run bleachers if there's no benefit?

Running hills or bleachers works the same muscles as sprinting. They add power to your leg muscles because you are both moving forward and up. but for bleachers you really need a long set of them, running the bleachers at the local high school isnt going to do much. You arent climbing for a long enough period of time. A workout like that really needs each set to be at least 2 minutes long, no less than 1:30 for sure to be effective. BTW, i workout like the that should be used to increase lactate threshold or increase fast twitch fibers and increase the length of time your muscles can work hard without becoming fatigued.

surfnturk
02-01-2013, 16:13
That seems to make sense. I have no knowledge of running to the degree you do, but,wouldnt running up and down bleachers, even shorter ones, duplicate going up and down a hill?

topshelf
02-01-2013, 17:30
That seems to make sense. I have no knowledge of running to the degree you do, but,wouldnt running up and down bleachers, even shorter ones, duplicate going up and down a hill?


Short bleachers/hills are only beneficial if you can sprint up them at top speed. The hill must be relatively steep, and sprints should last anywhere from 30-60 seconds, much like strides at the end of a run. This will make your muscles much more powerful. I don't advise running at top speed up bleachers.

Pedaling Fool
02-01-2013, 18:17
First question is why are you running? What are you trying to achieve? A 65 ft climb should not be considered a hill workout, I dont see any benefit coming from it. Your body becoming used to your runs is a good thing, its telling you it might be ready for more(mileage or speed)

-But since you are on flatland, consider repeats instead of hills. You can start 1 day a week with 4 sets of 2-5 minute runs at 80-90% max heart rate followed by 1 minute of slower jogging, the workout should be preceded and followed by about 10 minute slow jog to warm up. As you feel comfortable and all 4 sets can be completed at the same pace you can add another set as you want. You may also consider running a quarter or half mile instead of running for 2-5 minutes.

-Do you do strides after any of your runs? Consider at the end of a few runs each week doing 4-5 strides to finish. Here's how I accomplish this: During the last 10 minutes of my run I do a 1 minute hard, 1 minute slow routine. During each minute of hard running I pick my pace up slightly, generally between 1-2 mph, then go back to normal pace during the other minutes.

-You may also consider taking a few days a week and lowering your mileage but picking up your running pace. I generally go down from 6 miles to 3-4 and run 1-2 mph faster(generally a heart rate of 18-185bpm for me compared to the started 155-160bpm on long runs).

-You may also think about some cross training(insanity, plyometrics) or weights a few times a week or a longer run each week(about 25% of your weekly mileage).Why am I running? Because it's one of the best workouts one can do for overall fitness. I do many other exercises, such as cycling, weightlifting and some crossfit and do a little recreational sports, such as frisbee, racketball...

But of all them running is vital, as I see it to overall fitness, simply because our bodies evolved to run as evidenced by our superior ability to run distance and they say that the Achilles tendon is specifically designed for running, not really needed for walking. Interesting article on that: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18728-achilles-tendon-is-key-to-evolution-of-human-running.html


As for my planned run up and down the bridge not being "considered a hill workout". I'll get back at you on that, personally I think it's a start, at least that's my impression now. I could workout on the machine at the gym that elevates to 50%, but I also need the downhill aspect also, that's why I'm using the bridge.

I don't believe anything you mentioned could replace hill workouts and I already do sprinting.

Pedaling Fool
02-01-2013, 18:25
Like I said I do sprints, but hills seem to add more to your workouts, here's an article to show that, but that's all I can say for now since I have no experience running hills. http://www.brianmac.co.uk/hilltrain.htm


I'm not sure of the gradient of these hills, but it'll take longer than 30 seconds to run up and when I'm on my bike and I have a 52/11 gear I can get up to 50 mph on these hills, so like I said before...It's a start.

topshelf
02-01-2013, 19:15
Why am I running? Because it's one of the best workouts one can do for overall fitness. I do many other exercises, such as cycling, weightlifting and some crossfit and do a little recreational sports, such as frisbee, racketball...

But of all them running is vital, as I see it to overall fitness, simply because our bodies evolved to run as evidenced by our superior ability to run distance and they say that the Achilles tendon is specifically designed for running, not really needed for walking. Interesting article on that: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18728-achilles-tendon-is-key-to-evolution-of-human-running.html


As for my planned run up and down the bridge not being "considered a hill workout". I'll get back at you on that, personally I think it's a start, at least that's my impression now. I could workout on the machine at the gym that elevates to 50%, but I also need the downhill aspect also, that's why I'm using the bridge.

I don't believe anything you mentioned could replace hill workouts and I already do sprinting.


well you asked for suggestions, I gave a few, but just as there 68758765 ways to hike, there are just as many ways to train and run. RYOR.

Del Q
02-01-2013, 19:20
Here is a good one

Get on the treadmill

Turn it on

Elevate to 15 degrees

Turn it OFF

Go for a few minutes and report back.............GREAT WORKOUT

Green - no electricity

JAK
02-01-2013, 20:06
Arthur Lydiard should be read, and I think everyone should try his training plan at least once.

john gault,
I think you will like his stuff on hill training.
http://lydiardfoundation.org/training.aspx

Chuckie V
02-01-2013, 20:51
Arthur Lydiard should be read, and I think everyone should try his training plan at least once.
john gault, I think you will like his stuff on hill training.
http://lydiardfoundation.org/training.aspx

Nailed it JAK! I've been coaching endurance athletes for decades (Ironman World Champs, Tour riders, marathon runners and the like), and I've been lucky enough to make a living from it all that time. Lydiard's stuff is often scorned by those shortsighted physiologists walking straight out of grad school, but it's his very tenets behind the successes I've had and we all eventually seem to come back to him. In a nutshell, Length before strength and strength before speed. Gains are plotted and graphed, patience is absolutely required (progressive overload, not sudden overload!), rest is an integral part of training (everything is training, really, as everything affects results) and diligence is due. And, most of all, training is specific to the end goal!

Sr. Gault, have you quantified your running gains or are you just need some new mental stimulation? "I feel as though my body is getting too use to my runs..." can be a risky proposition. I would strongly urge you to track your gains aerobically (as per Lydiard or Maffetone; search online) before introducing levels of challenge/stimulus that may be far greater than anything accomplished prior. Baby steps! Until you've reached a physical aerobic plateau (as measured when running by HR, pace/time, and perceived exertion/PE, or watts and HR and PE on the bike), introducing tougher levels of training (i.e., anaerobic hill work) tends to elicit the (seemingly vague) risks of too much too soon, especially as we start to reach our forth or fifth decade. I'm sure you know to introduce the new stress carefully, and sprinting up hills is, without a doubt, highly stressful (as per design). I personally wouldn't ever have an athlete run hill repeats until we watched their aerobic paces starting to plateau to damn near their race paces. (I basically quantify "aerobic pace" as the pace an athlete can maintain at an aerobic level of exertion (say 90% of lactate "threshold" or 80% of max HR) over a long period of time (i.e., an hour or more). These tests will teach an athlete whether he or she is making constant long-term gains, as training should generally elicit. Too many athletes do too much too soon and are thus required to nurse injuries or illnesses, setting them even further back. Use hills judiciously, even in flat ol' Florida!

topshelf
02-01-2013, 21:39
all good coaches start with teaching people to tie their shoes correctly, ha

Papa D
02-01-2013, 22:30
I'd recommend getting a copy of Jeff Galloway's Book on Running (his first book). It has an entire section on hill running, how it can improve your speed, and how to do do hill running drills in flat parts of the world. Great info!

+1 to Jeff Galloway's books

for what it's worth, I graduated high school from The Galloway School - a private high school for well-to-do hippy kids started by Jeff's dad, Elliott Galloway (an educator, runner, and great guy) - - anyway, later in life, I became a runner and actually started (founded, established) a half marathon in my hometown - - we invited Jeff to be the honorary starter which was super cool. Anyway, I'm biased but I have gleened a lot from his books. I do a lot of Gallowalking on the trail. :-)

fiddlehead
02-01-2013, 22:48
I have two rules when running/jogging: Always walk the uphills, Always run the downhills.
Learned that from reading David Horton's book.
I can powerwalk and uphill almost as fast as runners when I'm in a race like a marathon or ultra or even half-marathon.
And I know I use a lot less energy.

But to each his own of course.
I don't run as much anymore.

I've discovered tennis and is much more fun and I seem to get just as good of a workout.
Of course you need a partner and one who is equal in ability. That's the hard part.

JAK
02-02-2013, 09:24
[QUOTE=Chuckie V;1407328]Nailed it JAK! I've been coaching endurance athletes for decades (Ironman World Champs, Tour riders, marathon runners and the like), and I've been lucky enough to make a living from it all that time. Lydiard's stuff is often scorned by those shortsighted physiologists walking straight out of grad school, but it's his very tenets behind the successes I've had and we all eventually seem to come back to him. In a nutshell, Length before strength and strength before speed. Gains are plotted and graphed, patience is absolutely required (progressive overload, not sudden overload!), rest is an integral part of training (everything is training, really, as everything affects results) and diligence is due. And, most of all, training is specific to the end goal!

Sr. Gault, have you quantified your running gains or are you just need some new mental stimulation? "I feel as though my body is getting too use to my runs..." can be a risky proposition. I would strongly urge you to track your gains aerobically (as per Lydiard or Maffetone; search online) before introducing levels of challenge/stimulus that may be far greater than anything accomplished prior. Baby steps! Until you've reached a physical aerobic plateau (as measured when running by HR, pace/time, and perceived exertion/PE, or watts and HR and PE on the bike), introducing tougher levels of training (i.e., anaerobic hill work) tends to elicit the (seemingly vague) risks of too much too soon, especially as we start to reach our forth or fifth decade. I'm sure you know to introduce the new stress carefully, and sprinting up hills is, without a doubt, highly stressful (as per design). I personally wouldn't ever have an athlete run hill repeats until we watched their aerobic paces starting to plateau to damn near their race paces. (I basically quantify "aerobic pace" as the pace an athlete can maintain at an aerobic level of exertion (say 90% of lactate "threshold" or 80% of max HR) over a long period of time (i.e., an hour or more). These tests will teach an athlete whether he or she is making constant long-term gains, as training should generally elicit. Too many athletes do too much too soonGreat stuff there. Thanks for the perspective and wisdom. Going to be easing myself back into running this year.

JAK
02-02-2013, 09:30
Woopsa, messed up the unquote on that one. Trying again...


Nailed it JAK! I've been coaching endurance athletes for decades (Ironman World Champs, Tour riders, marathon runners and the like), and I've been lucky enough to make a living from it all that time. Lydiard's stuff is often scorned by those shortsighted physiologists walking straight out of grad school, but it's his very tenets behind the successes I've had and we all eventually seem to come back to him. In a nutshell, Length before strength and strength before speed. Gains are plotted and graphed, patience is absolutely required (progressive overload, not sudden overload!), rest is an integral part of training (everything is training, really, as everything affects results) and diligence is due. And, most of all, training is specific to the end goal!

Sr. Gault, have you quantified your running gains or are you just need some new mental stimulation? "I feel as though my body is getting too use to my runs..." can be a risky proposition. I would strongly urge you to track your gains aerobically (as per Lydiard or Maffetone; search online) before introducing levels of challenge/stimulus that may be far greater than anything accomplished prior. Baby steps! Until you've reached a physical aerobic plateau (as measured when running by HR, pace/time, and perceived exertion/PE, or watts and HR and PE on the bike), introducing tougher levels of training (i.e., anaerobic hill work) tends to elicit the (seemingly vague) risks of too much too soon, especially as we start to reach our forth or fifth decade. I'm sure you know to introduce the new stress carefully, and sprinting up hills is, without a doubt, highly stressful (as per design). I personally wouldn't ever have an athlete run hill repeats until we watched their aerobic paces starting to plateau to damn near their race paces. (I basically quantify "aerobic pace" as the pace an athlete can maintain at an aerobic level of exertion (say 90% of lactate "threshold" or 80% of max HR) over a long period of time (i.e., an hour or more). These tests will teach an athlete whether he or she is making constant long-term gains, as training should generally elicit. Too many athletes do too much too soon and are thus required to nurse injuries or illnesses, setting them even further back. Use hills judiciously, even in flat ol' Florida!

As I was saying, Good stuff there. Thanks for the perspective and wisdom. Going to be easing myself back into running this year. Past 5 years have found it hard to strike the balance between running to lose weight and losing weight to run. Bit of a chicken and egg when trying to do both and avoid injury, and recover and fuel up for the next run. Going to combine hiking and light trail running, and my morning paper route and paddling, until the weight comes down.

Pedaling Fool
02-02-2013, 10:52
Arthur Lydiard should be read, and I think everyone should try his training plan at least once.

john gault,
I think you will like his stuff on hill training.
http://lydiardfoundation.org/training.aspx
Thanks JAK, I like this page from your link http://lydiardfoundation.org/training/trainingthelydiardway.aspx

I do this all the time on the bike, so much so that I leave "everything" on the road, nothing left when I get home, but I do it too much, I really need to take it easy, which I've been getting better at. Now, I want to do it while running, but not every day, maybe to start with once a week and then go from there. I always do little sprints during my run, but when I'm done I feel like I've still got energy in reserve, but I want to have that feeling of having "nothing left", like on the bike, but I'm going to keep those workouts separate from my regular runs.

Anaerobic/Speed Development: (4 weeks)
"The first four weeks should be used for the further development of the anaerobic capacity to exercise and speed. When developing the capacity to exercise anaerobically, it is important to realize what you are trying to do and what physiological development you are trying to achieve. It is possible to develop an ability to incur about a 15-liter oxygen debt, and this is done by exercising anaerobically.

Developing big oxygen debts in training stimulates the body's metabolism to create buffers against fatigue. If this is understood, it will be realized that it does not really matter what form of running it takes, as long as you are making yourself very tired with the volume of anaerobic exercise; and finish the training session knowing that you could not do much more nor any better. Therefore, it doesn't matter whether you use repetitions or interval training, over different distances with different intervals, you don't even need to time them; as long as you come off the track or from your training quite fatigued. However, as a practical guide, it is advisable to get fast running into a total of about three miles, or 5,000 meters, or thereabouts; i.e. 12 x 400 meters, 6 x 800 meters, 5 x 1,000 meters, or 3 x 1 mile, etc.; with recovery jog of the equal distance in between. If one athlete takes longer intervals or more volume of fast repetitions than another to gain the same reactions physiologically, then he will just need to train for a longer time.


So, in many ways, it is important to evaluate your training every day, so as to understand the effects of each day’s training; and not to follow some or any schedule blindly.

I advise athletes to run their hard anaerobic training during this period of four weeks by doing it for three days weekly on alternate days. Never do hard anaerobic training on consecutive days, as it is wise to allow your blood pH to return to normal after the exhausting workouts.

The younger the athletes, the less anaerobic training should be used in the schedule; and the ratio of anaerobic to aerobic training only increases as the athletes get older and fitter."

JAK
02-02-2013, 18:35
Did you read the part about only doing the 4 weeks of anaerobic training once a year?

Pedaling Fool
02-03-2013, 10:35
Did you read the part about only doing the 4 weeks of anaerobic training once a year?
Yes and no. I see where he says this:

"I advise athletes to run their hard anaerobic training during this period of four weeks by doing it for three days weekly on alternate days. Never do hard anaerobic training on consecutive days, as it is wise to allow your blood pH to return to normal after the exhausting workouts.

The younger the athletes, the less anaerobic training should be used in the schedule; and the ratio of anaerobic to aerobic training only increases as the athletes get older and fitter."

He clearly states that this type anaerobic training done in a four-week period, but doesn't say once per year. However, as you read through the full article (link at top of page) he makes it clear that anaerobic workouts must remain a part of your training. And he refers to this as "Sharpening" workouts, which is done about once per week in order to maintain maximum anaerobic development; however, it clearly is different than the initial 4-week anaerobic conditioning program.

JAK
02-03-2013, 12:07
Read the part about periodization. He works everything back from the main competition you are training for. He is very big on teenage athletes avoiding too much competition especially when going from one competition cycle to the next perhaps three times in the same year, indoor track, outdoor track, cross-country, or when competing in multiple sports under multiple coaches. Especially when an over-zealous high school coach wants points for the school and has his star runner run multiple events at multiple meets, without consideration to long term development and what he or she is doing throughout the year.

Athletes in their 20s tend to focus on one peak per year, sometimes two, but only one serious peak once per year or ideally even once every two years. Also tend to have just one coach or are by then knowledgeable enough and mature enough to coach themselves or have a more peer-to-peer relationship with their coaches and trainers.

Beyond your 20s, especially when you are no longer training within a cyclical competitive framework, it becomes tempting once again to overtrain all year round, or not at all. I think this can be a mistake even when your body is fully developed. There is a case for having some strength and anaerobic training year round but with varying degrees, especially once you are older, but I would say perhaps yes to the strength, but caution on the anaerobic. I would also advocate going through one complete "Lydiard Cycle" first, which is at least 10 months long beginning with 4-6 months of aerobic training only, no anaerobic training, and that is for athletes already injury free and not substantially overweight. Then the hill training for strength. Then and only then the 4 weeks of anareobic conditioning, followed by the 'competive season and peaking' phases.

I don't know your situation, but it sounds to me like you are a little stale. Read the whole thing. Don't skip the base training phase because you are already in shape. Read the story behind the story. Read about Peter Snell. That'll get you motivated. During base training you can still do time trials at 80%, and you can use races for that also, but you have to set a speed limit. Run a 5k race, but run it with a heart rate monitor and don't let it go over 80%, and don't do a long kick at the end like 500m or the last mile. Don't go anaerobic. Final 100-200m maybe, just for fun. The thing to avoid is high lactate levels because they send the wrong signals to the body and undermine development of strength and endurance. Avoid the pain cave, no matter how much fun it can be, until you have maximized aerobic and strength development, at least for this year. Anaerobic conditioning is like going to war. You can't be doing it all the time. Your body will eventually find ways to avoid its destructive nature. You have to lay a strong foundation first, then you can freak and peak, and then you must start all over again.

JAK
02-03-2013, 12:18
http://lydiardfoundation.org/pdfs/al_training.pdf

see page 23, how to set a training schedule
6. Conditioning Training is time left <===== This means 6 months or more, even up to 18 months !!!

see page 25, The Schedule
I. Conditioning = AS LONG AS POSSIBLE
II. Hill Resistance = 4 weeks
III. Anaerobic Training = 4 weeks
IV. Co-ordination Training = 4 weeks
V. 2 weeks pre-peak = 2 weeks
VI. Continuation of Competions = a few more weeks
then back to Conditioning

JAK
02-03-2013, 14:40
Weighed myself at 213 pounds today on the Wii. I've got to get myself back into the game. You are probably in excellent shape. I am probably being somewhat of a Joseph Conrad's Secret Sharer. Enjoy your experiment of One.

Pedaling Fool
02-03-2013, 14:51
I'm not sure I know what you're talking about JAK; I've already agreed that the 4-week anaerobic training schedule should not be extended past the 4-week period, I just don't see the part about only doing it once a year. And I did see the "Conditioning training is time left". But I don't see anything that says repeat the 4-week anaerobic training once per year. Depending on how you read it, it could read to only do this 4-week training period only in a year in which you have a big race scheduled.


But what are you saying? That one should not go anaerobic at all after that 4-week training schedule? That I don't agree with.

I don't want to sound like I understand everything in that link, I definitely don't and in a way it's only a guideline, and the author admits that. I'm sure I'm misunderstanding a lot in that link and then there are sections in there that seem to contradict other sections.

It should also be noted that I'm not getting ready for a race, although I am running 15K next month, but I don't have any aspirations of setting a "super-time", nor a PR. My whole interest in this is all about lifelong health, and I see physical fitness as essential in this goal. And I've come to the conclusion, to ensure physical fitness, one must not do simple aerobic training; some anaerobic training is essential, granted you must be careful not to overdo it. I've already found that out -- the hard way.



I don't know your situation, but it sounds to me like you are a little stale. Read the whole thing. Don't skip the base training phase because you are already in shape. Read the story behind the story.I was stale, but I didn't know that came thru on what I've been posting. And I do blame that on overtraining. I've come to the realization that it's best to under train, rather than overtrain, but it can be very tricky thing to balance that, not to mention to get it just right, but I think I'm making a breakthrough.

BTW, I very much agree with what the author says on page 25, i.e. "Never do speed training on sore muscles" and "You can never harm yourself by jogging and it will usually help to overcome soreness and tiredness" Just a couple things I've learned, albeit the hard way, and it's why I decided to NOT start my sprints today, because of sore muscles from this past week's running. But despite the soreness, I'm feeling so much better than that "stale" period I did relatively recently go through and I very much know what if feels to be "stale". So I don't see myself as stale anymore, but when you do put yourself in that position, which I did, there's always a recovery period. I really do feel as though I'm pass the recovery and well into developing my conditioning and I think a smarter anaerobic aspect is required.

But if I'm wrong (again :)) I'll let you know;)

JAK
02-03-2013, 15:23
I hear you. Just understand that Lydiards "Conditioning Phase" is meant to be 6 months or more. His theory is that by running 10 hours a week at 70-80% VO2Max, and never going to high level of lactate ( wind sprints are ok ) the body will be able to eliminate weaknesses in the muscles, where maybe there is local scar tissue, or insufficient blood vessels, or other weaknesses. Anaerobic Conditioning creates higher levels of stress, where the body has to focus on increasing its tollerance of high levels of lactate, even at the expense of aerobic and strength conditioning. Some say it is better to include a little anaerobic conditioning year round, but not Lydiard. I think everyone should try a complete year of Lydiard once. Of course you can injure yourself and set yourself back even within the Conditioning Phase. 10 hours a week at 70-80% is no picnic. You have to prepare yourself for it and ease yourself into it. I think for older folks like me hiking 20-60 hours a week can be a very effective way to ease yourself back into running 6-10 hours a week.

Pedaling Fool
02-03-2013, 20:06
I hear you. Just understand that Lydiards "Conditioning Phase" is meant to be 6 months or more. His theory is that by running 10 hours a week at 70-80% VO2Max, and never going to high level of lactate ( wind sprints are ok ) the body will be able to eliminate weaknesses in the muscles, where maybe there is local scar tissue, or insufficient blood vessels, or other weaknesses. Anaerobic Conditioning creates higher levels of stress, where the body has to focus on increasing its tollerance of high levels of lactate, even at the expense of aerobic and strength conditioning. Some say it is better to include a little anaerobic conditioning year round, but not Lydiard. I think everyone should try a complete year of Lydiard once. Of course you can injure yourself and set yourself back even within the Conditioning Phase. 10 hours a week at 70-80% is no picnic. You have to prepare yourself for it and ease yourself into it. I think for older folks like me hiking 20-60 hours a week can be a very effective way to ease yourself back into running 6-10 hours a week.In other words, Don't over do it, I hear you :D;)

Tell you the truth, I really take everything I read with a big grain of salt, but still read it and try and balance it against my experience. I'm just so use to seeing so many things get overturned that use to be "fact". I'm reading something now that's completely changing what I've learned about diets. And then you got Lactate, since you mentioned it, now they tell us that that's not what causes the burn, nor the next day's soreness. But to be fair, a lot of the misconceptions out there are not the fault of the researcher (but some are), rather from those that are out to make a buck off the "science" of losing weight, or getting fit, or....


http://www.bicycling.com/training-nutrition/training-fitness/lactic-acid-101?cm_mmc=BicyclingNL-_-1188256-_-lactic_acid_101


Lactic Acid 101
We separate fact from fiction for this vital cycling fuel source


FACT: It’s a source of energy.
Lactic acid (http://www.bicycling.com/training-nutrition/training-fitness/lactate-threshold-101), or lactate, is a chemical that your body produces 24/7, even while you’re doing nothing, says L. Bruce Gladden, PhD, professor of kinesiology at Auburn University. Its purpose? To feed your muscles so you can move.

FICTION: You can blame it for the burn.
Lactic acid is not what makes your legs threaten mutiny when you’re climbing or going hard. If anything, it delays the point at which you fatigue by providing fast energy when you’re pushing into the red. The burn you feel when you hit your limit is probably the result of your nervous system sensing increased acidity from the accumulated lactate, Gladden says.

FACT: It’s made in different ways.
When you’re spinning along comfortably, your body primarily gets energy via a slow but steady process that converts fat to fuel. But when you put the hammer down, muscles need fuel faster, so they use a speedier process that taps stored carbs, or glycogen. Both methods produce lactic acid, which helps supply energy to muscles. The more carbs the body uses, the more lactate accumulates in the muscles and blood.

FICTION: It causes postride soreness.
In fact, when you ease the pace, the rate at which your body pumps out lactate slows. It doesn’t pool in your legs and make them hurt. Next-day soreness is more likely the result of damage to muscle and connective tissue, or plain old inflammation.

TRAIN IT
“The better you are at using lactate for energy,” says Gladden, “the better your exercise endurance.” You can teach your body to use lactate more efficiently by putting in lots of miles. But upping your intensity will do the trick in less time. Structure your rides so you spend 10 to 20 percent of the time going hard, at an exertion level of 70 to 80 percent (or higher) of your all-out effort.

JAK
02-04-2013, 00:41
yeah, it's fuel, but try running as hard as you can for 3 minutes, one minute rest, and see how many times you can repeat that
you will soon find out that too much of a good thing is not so great

sure its fun, but not the sort of thing you can do every week year round

Chuckie V
02-04-2013, 01:24
yeah, it's fuel, but try running as hard as you can for 3 minutes, one minute rest, and see how many times you can repeat that
you will soon find out that too much of a good thing is not so great

sure its fun, but not the sort of thing you can do every week year round

Not only that, but if ultimate performance was the ultimate goal of training, this methodology would ultimately prove itself unworthy, when compared to a smarter, slower-to-build approach. Keep in mind that you can raise your lactate "threshold" any number of ways; long, slow mileage does it, believe it or not, just as the "supra-threshold" stuff does, or what I call *****...super high intensity training!

Also, it's also important to know that the body knows no true thresholds, as well as understanding that training is like laying layers on top of one another. This is why Lydiard's athletes all became a bunch of stars, even though they were just everyday average neighborhood kids when he started with them. Gault: apply all training stress cautiously, especially anaerobic stuff. It's a double-edged sword and juggling that sword can (and will likely) cut you down prematurely, especially again, if you're middle-aged and your efforts are out of order.

I've been to clinics with Dr. Snell, and, when asked what he would do differently with what his knows now (again, he has a PhD in exercise physiology), he says he would've perhaps done some year-round speed work, but they'd have been so short in nature that they wouldn't be considered anaerobic, but rather alactic. These types of efforts are maximal, but over with before any real damage or acidosis can be accrued. They keep the fast-twitch muscle fibers ready though, for when the intense training commences. But trust me here: at the highest levels of sport, it's all intense training in one form or another! Many Kenyan runners jog at our 400-meter sprint pace!

Pedaling Fool
02-04-2013, 18:09
I measured out a route on the bridge today, ends up being 0.6 mile up and over, so it'll be 3 miles if I do it 5 times. I was planning to at least do two easy up and overs today, just to get a feel for it, but when I did my leg workout in the gym I realized my legs still a little too weak from last week's running, so maybe this weekend.

Spirit Walker
02-05-2013, 00:26
Have fun. An alternative I've read about for people who live in the flat is to find a parking garage. You can do a pretty good climb and descent in a 6 or 7 story garage. The key is to find some time when it's not busy.

Pedaling Fool
02-28-2013, 13:20
I measured out a route on the bridge today, ends up being 0.6 mile up and over, so it'll be 3 miles if I do it 5 times. I was planning to at least do two easy up and overs today, just to get a feel for it, but when I did my leg workout in the gym I realized my legs still a little too weak from last week's running, so maybe this weekend.I originally wanted to run this hill as sort of a speedwork-type training, but since have decided against it, since I have the 15K run coming up I don't want to risk injury. However, I've been running it slowly, because I noticed on the 15K route we go across a bigger bridge (Hart Bridge), not too much higher, but longer, which I can't practice on because it's normally closed to pedestrians.

BTW, Like I said I haven't started doing speedwork yet, but I found this calculator for seeing how your time compares to others in your age group, pretty interesting and motivating.


http://pinebeltpacers.org/AgeGrade/newwava.html






.

burk
03-09-2013, 22:48
John was the 15k the river run ?

Pedaling Fool
03-10-2013, 11:46
John was the 15k the river run ?Yeah, but it's kind of sore subject now. My first running event and I bonked, don't know what happened but I was feeling like crap the entire run. I was thinking maybe nerves, but by mile 2 all I could think of was..."Damn 7 miles to go"... My pace was only 11:36.

Never ran in a running event before, but have done quite a bit of cycling events, but I've never bonked like that...trying to figure out what went wrong...

Feeling like a pathetic POS :datz

rocketsocks
03-10-2013, 11:51
Yeah, but it's kind of sore subject now. My first running event and I bonked, don't know what happened but I was feeling like crap the entire run. I was thinking maybe nerves, but by mile 2 all I could think of was..."Damn 7 miles to go"... My pace was only 11:36.

Never ran in a running event before, but have done quite a bit of cycling events, but I've never bonked like that...trying to figure out what went wrong...

Feeling like a pathetic POS :datzDon't feel bad John, some of us don't even get a chance at "Bonk" were stuck on Bink! And at least you didn't go "Boing" that's even worse and suggests a injury.

John maybe it's time to throw your hat in this thread. hehe:)

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?93235-Any-50-hikers-out-there

burk
03-10-2013, 20:56
You are not the only bonk, I averaged a 10:12 mile. normal is a 8:00. thats anaverage of 20 Green monsters. Did you enjoy the bridge?

JAK
03-11-2013, 03:27
I am running again, starting today.

rocketsocks
03-11-2013, 03:56
I am running again, starting today.Good deal JAK, you can do it!

Pedaling Fool
03-11-2013, 09:29
Yes, I enjoyed the Green Monster, rather I would have enjoyed it if I wasn't feeling so bad, had nothing to do with the elevation. By the time I crossed the line my head was swimming, just don't know what went wrong, but I'm thinking I overtrained.:mad:

All well, just have to get back on the horse; I'm going to D.C. soon, got some work there, and I've been looking at some of the profiles there and there are some massive hills to run, so I'm just going to put some serious miles in on those hills. Just can't get over the bonking...:datz

jbwood5
03-11-2013, 09:47
John... for your hill training, the best you can do is hike in the mountains with a full backpack. You need the inclines that go for 1/2 mile plus and go out for a week or more. You would not believe the climbing strength that you gain from backpacking, and it will really show up in your races.

The thing about your 15 k Jax bridge run is that you need to start slow. Don't get caught up in the crowd. The uphills must be tackled with shorter, almost choppy, footsteps. You do not want to be out of breath on the flats for the first 6-7 miles. You should be able to talk, although it might be a little labored. If you are huffing, you will die (drop off substantially) before the end. Forget about pace and times and what your fellow runner is doing. Psychologically, you will have a better race if you can pass more people at the end then those who are passing you. The key to longivity is slow steady running (even jogging). If you want to race, expect a short running carreer (and that is what a lot of people like to do). It is not a matter of if you will get injured, it is when.... If you want to run well into your 50's to even your 70's, it has to be easy, controlled, and less frequently. Believe me.. I've been through it all and it is a tough balance. Even at 63, I can still eek out a weekly trail run of 15 -20 miles but I rarely hit the pavement anymore (used to do from 5K's to road marathons all through my 40's). Even in the best shoes it tears me up. I really believe it is in your best interest to find "your" capabilities, not what you read in a book or what your fellow runners are doing. If you ever get into trail running, you'll find that they are the best and most supportive group out there. It is the other people out there that keep me moving.

Just John
Seminole, FL

burk
03-11-2013, 21:31
jb I could not disagree with a thing you said.
John how close to the river front plaza are you? Once a week you could run that bridge. If i remember right it has a pedestrian walk. just like jb
said shorten your stride. Remember just like HYOH , run your own run.

burk
03-11-2013, 21:35
By the way. The wife reminded me we get to do it agin next year.