View Full Version : The fear is creeping in.
I'll be at Springer March 1-5 and I don't want to be sleeping cold. I've either been spending too much time reading posts here on whiteblaze or, I have some rational concerns. I'll let y'all decide.
10-12 years ago I always camped and hiked in the Fall on into the Spring. I've hiked the Georgia AT in Winter twice (right after Christmas). I remember 3 consecutive nights freezing my tail off. I haven't camped in winter since because of those cold nights. I have different gear now and more experience although not cold experience. Earlier this summer, on my PCT thru, I dreaded the cold nights in the Sierra. I had one uncomfortable night there. My last two nights in Washington were also very cold. I slept fine I just wasn't comfortable. Clearly I'm a cold sleeper.
I've got the standard 3 season kit;
Wool long johns
Down Sweater
Wool cap
liner gloves
wool socks
20 degree Quilt
Closed cell pad
In addition to this stuff, I'm packing a micro fleece and a pair of wool mitts.
I'm considering bulking up the warmth in 1 of 2 ways:
1) Adding a 30 degree synthetic bag (which I have).
2) Adding army field liner pants w/ silly down booties. (I don't have these)
Also I'm thinking about adding a 1/8" sleeping pad (I don't have).
I'm in NE Florida until the end of the month so I can't field test cold gear. Is the stuff I have enough? Should I pack an extra sleeping bag or insulate my body with puffy clothing? Is there something else I haven't thought of? I know I can buy whatever I need at Neels gap and I'm probably not gonna die. I just can't get these irrational fears out of my head. I'm getting cold just thinking about getting cold.
1) Down booties are not "silly". They are VERY effective in adding to your comfort.
2) Add a second pad for ground insulation. It doesn't matter how much insulation you add on top if the ground is sucking the warmth from your body underneath. One pad is not enough once it gets down into the teens.
I would get a second full thickness pad.
HikerMom58
02-05-2013, 09:46
I'm listening to this advice as well.....
I always take a few chemical heat packs.
I would get a second full thickness pad.
Thanks Lyle, I think you may be spot on here.
I'd also like to add that I'm familiar with the hot bottle trick and know enough to eat lots of food in cold weather.
Also, if I were you, and could swing it, I'd get a warmer bag for the start/end of the trip. If you know you are a cold sleeper, get a 15 degree (or even a 0 degree) bag. Much more efficient that two bags. Two bags will work though, just bulky and heavy. You may also be fine with just your extra clothes.
My goal when planing cold weather trips is to take what I know I'll be comfortable with at the temperatures expected. And make sure I have what I need to survive the worst possible conditions. I try to reserve my extra clothes/layers for the latter.
For me the main thing is not to become chilled before getting wrapped up. Once your body temp has dropped, you'll be shivering for hours, possibly all night, no matter how much clothing you put on and how think your sleeping bag and pad. Try to capture the heat you've built up while hiking before it dissipates into the cold night air.
Given you have completed the PCT you are in a much better position than 99% of the AT hikers. Nights on the PCT get cold as does the AT in the Spring so you already have a good feel for what to expect. I tweaked my UL PCT thru hike gear for winter conditions on the southern and central AT. I upgraded my pad to a 5.7R Neoair xtherm. Second, I will wear my rain gear directly over my base layer as a VBL and that has significantly increased the lower temperature limit of my 20deg quilt. Other than that, it is exactly the same gear that I took on the PCT
Finally, I suspect you have learned a lot since your earlier experiences on the AT. How to layer, and not overdress when going to bed, eating directly before bed and other strategies are probably second nature to you at this point, it's called experience. Don't fear, as you well know you can adapt.
I'd change up the pad or add to it before changing the other stuff. I don't know what kind of CCF pad you have, but maybe an R value of 3-ish? -- which, as far as I can tell from my research, is comfortable down to about 40 degrees, high thirties. A 0-degree bag with a 30-degree mat is only going to be good to 30 degrees.
All good ideas above--
What is your quilt like? Does it seal well without leaving a foot out in the cold? Since you have another bag you should probably take it along if you can use both the bag and quilt together. You should be able to wear all your clothes and use both bag and quilt and not feel like you are a mummy. It is a trade off, you want to be able to move comfortably without having to warm too much extra air inside the bag.
Wear your hat and socks to bed, use chemical warming packs, and have a pee bottle nearby.
For me the main thing is not to become chilled before getting wrapped up. Once your body temp has dropped, you'll be shivering for hours, possibly all night, no matter how much clothing you put on and how think your sleeping bag and pad. Try to capture the heat you've built up while hiking before it dissipates into the cold night air.
I agree. However--it can be somewhat of a balancing act sometimes. If you get into your sleeping clothes and/or your sleeping bag too early (when you are still semi-perspiring) you can overheat/perspire while in your sleeping clothes and sleeping bag. That can also make for an uncomfortable and cool/cold night as that perspiration gathers on your sleeping clothes or sleeping bag and condenses. The ideal is to get ready for bed when you are no longer overly warm and before you cool off too much.
fredmugs
02-05-2013, 11:07
I hate the cold too but since I've been placing a nalgene bottle full of boiling water in my bag when I go to bed it's better.
bigcranky
02-05-2013, 11:13
Since you have a good 20F quilt, the things I would add are down booties, possibly the field liner pants, and upping the ground insulation. Maybe add a down hat, too, since your wool watch cap probably isn't warm enough.
We just bought a pair of Goosefeet for my wife, and they are very nicely made and puff up like nobody's business. Awesome, and at ~2.5 ounces she can bring them on most every trip.
The other thing we've learned the hard way is to warm up her sleeping bag, either with heat packs or by carrying a real Nalgene bottle and doing the boiling water trick for 30 minutes before she goes to bed.
If you start March 1-5 with that gear, you'll likely freeze your begonias off for several nights. It gets too cold that early on the AT (could get to 0*F and windy) to be able to get by with what you have planned on that early of a start date. It'll probably be way colder on the AT at the beginning of March than it ever was for you on the PCT.
Suggestions:
Option 1) Move your start date to April 1st and go with the original gear you have planned -- you'll have a few chilly nights with that gear but it won't be so bone chilling cold that a March 1-5 start will be.
Option 2) Get a 15*F or (preferably) better/warmer sleeping bag from Western Mountaineering, get a Neoair and a Ridgerest and put those onto some kite-weight Tyvek in the shelter and carry a Mylar sleeping bag (Space brand or American something brand -- don't get the cheap $4.00 brands -- they'll break on the first night) to put inside it on the bitter cold nights with a hot water bottle (use a Gatorade bottle to save weight rather than a Nalgene). I wouldn't even consider taking a quilt or a combo quilt/30*F syn bag -- it'll just be too cold on the AT for that. Also, make sure to take eyehooks and some string so you can put your carry-on shelter (tent or tarp) across the front of the shelter to block the howling wind, assuming you're planning to stay in shelters in order to block some of the wind and to be able to get out earlier in the morning.
Datto
Good luck on your journey. As for the cold, add the Army field jacket liner. Weighs next to nothing and really works. Also, when you get coul during the night, eat some fatty food (sausage, etc., and drin some water (careful with the piss bottle). You don't need a lot, but the body burning the fat will probably get you through the night. Worked for me when I was on a winter field excercise in Norway.
I'd add the quilt and an 1/8 inch Thinlight pad from gossamer gear. Send them home once it's warmer.
handlebar
02-05-2013, 19:55
I'd add the thinlight pad and if it was especially cold, sleep on the ground in my tarp or tent. In a shelter the cold air flows under the floor and turns it into a big heat sink. Typically, the ground is no colder than 32F.
I'm not getting it Fairway. Not trying to offend but I would think someone who thrued the PCT would know how to adapt to the changing conditions, particularly temp swings, of a PCT thru especially since you said you know you're a cold sleeper. Going into the Sierras did you make any kit changes? Some PCTers do. What was your entry date? What did you do to stay warm in the Sierras compared to the lower elevation less exposure Mojave Desert? You said nothing about your in camp set-up either. What are you using for shelter? You do know that an enclosed shelter increases the temp at which you sleep, sometimes by as much as 10*. You could also add a bag liner(I like Cocoon silk mummy liners) to add a few degrees of warmth, like 5-8*. When I want to add warmth to my sleep system I tweak my kit with a water resistant highly breathable bivy, Cocoon silk mummy liner, and CCF pad for insulation. I'll also switch out from a NeoAir Shortie to a NeoAir Women's NeoAir which had a higher R-value and is longer so I'm more insulated from the ground. When really cold I sleep in my merino beanie, nylon gloves, dry rain jacket and/or rain pants and Goosefeet down Booties in addition to whatever dry layers I have. The Goosefeet down booties may seem a bit foo foo to you but IMHO staying warm weather hiking or when sleeping involves keeping my core, torso, around the heart area, from the upper thigh to my neck down to my elbows, and my extremities, head, feet and hands, warm. You never mentioned where you generally feel cold when sleeping. Sometimes it makes a difference like if it's you're extremities getting cold or whether you just feel cold in general. You might also be having draft issues sleeping in a quilt, losing the warmth captured in the quilt. I know I did until I started gaining more experience using the quilt. You might consider the quilt for when it's warmer and have a a separate warmer(lower temp rated) sleeping bag with a good sealing draft collar and draft tube for the start and end of a AT thru-hike. And, of course, there are lots of other tricks to employ if you're a cold sleeper or hiking in COLD weather. Some of those tricks have been mentioned already here but do some further cold weather camping research and you'll find many more.
You also say you live in GA so you should know what the typical weather is like in early March on the AT for a NOBO thru.
BTW, fear coupled with cold, isn't going to make anything better. You got info, know come up with what works best FOR YOU.
Dogwood, no worries, you didn't offend me at all. My only objection is that your second sentence is almost unreadable. Let me see if I can explain myself further and put us both on the same page. I had 3 uncomfortable nights on the PCT. 3 bad nights out of 120 nights ain't too shabby. My concern, is that temps for a March 1st AT NOBO thru are much colder than temps for a May 1st PCT NOBO thru. Without a thermometer reading the most objective way to explain this is with frozen water bottles..... bear with me.
I mentioned I had 3 uncomfortable nights on the PCT. Only one of those 3 nights was cold enough to put a thin ring of ice in my water bottles. I always had atleast one bottle outside the tent. Now, if I were to leave bottles outside my tent every night in March on the AT, I wouldn't be surprised to find them frozen, partially if not solid, on at least one occasion. If I was uncomfortable when the temps barely iced my bottles, how miserable will I be when the temps get low enough to freeze a water bottle? Is that explanation "getting it" for you?
Answers to questions:
-I have a zlite pad.
-I shipped a rain jacket/pants to Kennedy Meadows.
-I headed into the Sierra June 9th.
-I wore the rain pants over long johns at night. I added a down sweater, hat, gloves, and jacket when needed.
-I set up a tarp tent every night after KM.
-There was never a specific cold spot, I was cold in general.
-Drafts in the quilt were obvious b/c they always woke me. After a few nights they were easily dealt with.
-The coldest night was at Diaz Creek in the Sierra. The campsite is down in a drainage basin... naturally the cold air slides down into the valley floor making Diaz Creek a notorious cold spot.
Thanks, everyone for responding. Big ups to Lyle and Karma13 for giving me some perspective and an explanation on heat loss for ground pads. As the saying goes knowledge is power, we fear the unknown (Not sure who to credit but, I'm sure someone said it.) All those years ago I didn't really know why I was so cold, the fear made me give up Winter camping. Now, I'm confident I need more pad in the cold. I need protection from the thieving ground that wants to steal my heat away. I'll probably add pant liners and silly down booties too.
Thanx For This Oppurtunity ....
I would get a second full thickness pad.
Good advice, also if you get a chance to experiment....
For cold weather I have taken to folding a USGI casualty blanket (http://www.amazon.com/Rothco-G-I-O-D-Casualty-Blanket/dp/B0014EWWFM) in half and placing on top of my foam pad under the bag and bivy bag (I love bivy bags). It does a good job of keeping my body heat in my sleeping bag and not in the ground. Works great, super light and serves several purposes. I roll mine up up with the pad and it can also be used to drape over you if you get chilly. Placing any extra clothing on top of your bag will serve to further insulate you. This works well provided you have a good bag. Get a good bag.
Something like polypros will also serve as a night time base layer (yea, I know its military arctic cold weather gear, but for the price and performance it really cant be beat) - I dont know that you need the whole set listed here (http://www.vtarmynavy.com/complete-polypropylene-set---black.htm) but the tops and bottoms are my go to night gear, and they work. They will make you sweat if you wear them during the day, so big drawback, but they are light and antimicrobial and warm. They wad up pretty well for storage too...
Just Jack
02-06-2013, 11:00
While we are talking about sleeping in the cold, can some one clear up an "issue" for me? I've always understood that in cold weather, one should sleep in the sleeping bag--assuming it is properlyy rated-- in nothing but boxers and Tshirt. It is body heat that warms the sleeping bag and the insulating quality of the sleeping bag holds in that heat and thusly keeps one warm. If one puts on long johns, rain pants, parka, rain jacket, etc,etc, -- then all one is doing is insulating the body preventing it from warming the bag. Granted, there are nites when one has a summer bag and encounters record cold ,then you put on everything you got to try and make it through the nite. But normally, how should one dress for bed? Thoughts???
While we are talking about sleeping in the cold, can some one clear up an "issue" for me? I've always understood that in cold weather, one should sleep in the sleeping bag--assuming it is properlyy rated-- in nothing but boxers and Tshirt. It is body heat that warms the sleeping bag and the insulating quality of the sleeping bag holds in that heat and thusly keeps one warm. If one puts on long johns, rain pants, parka, rain jacket, etc,etc, -- then all one is doing is insulating the body preventing it from warming the bag. Granted, there are nites when one has a summer bag and encounters record cold ,then you put on everything you got to try and make it through the nite. But normally, how should one dress for bed? Thoughts???
PERSONAL experience only disclaimer:
I learned to keep clothes in my bag with me - it drys them out and warms them.
I used to be a large proponent of undies only (as I was taught in scouts) - then after freezing my ass of in a poorly rated bag in sub 20 deg cold, I began to re think my approach. I now wear all the clothes I have with me in the sack. If I have a jacket/fleece/ect I place it over the bag to further layer (I would place them under to insulate, but I use an emergency blanket to do this already). I have found that I sleep warmer in my clothes. We wear layers to stay warm in the cold (and to shed them as we heat up) but why do we not layer to go to sleep. It seems almost counter productive to me to take off clothes and loose insulating my body. The bag is a different kind of outer layer, and will still do its job.
I also reserve the right to be considered wrong in this approach.
The sleeping bag will trap any heat that escapes the body. If that heat escapes from the skin, it makes no difference than that same heat escaping from the outer layer of whatever clothing you are wearing. The important part is how much heat escapes over-all, to the outside of the bag.
The problem with wearing too many and too bulky of clothes within the sleeping bag, is that it can compress the bag insulation from the inside, thus making the bag less efficient. Another potential problem with wearing too many or too tight of clothing inside the bag is that it reduces circulation.
My ideal is silk long johns, silk bag liner, and sleeping bag. This is a VERY light weight and surprisingly warm combination. Plus, the bag liner, if used with a quilt, reduces the little drafts that may wake you.
While we are talking about sleeping in the cold, can some one clear up an "issue" for me? I've always understood that in cold weather, one should sleep in the sleeping bag--assuming it is properlyy rated-- in nothing but boxers and Tshirt. It is body heat that warms the sleeping bag and the insulating quality of the sleeping bag holds in that heat and thusly keeps one warm. If one puts on long johns, rain pants, parka, rain jacket, etc,etc, -- then all one is doing is insulating the body preventing it from warming the bag. Granted, there are nites when one has a summer bag and encounters record cold ,then you put on everything you got to try and make it through the nite. But normally, how should one dress for bed? Thoughts???
You will sleep warmer wearing clothes. Not sure where the "sleep warmer in boxers" started but it has been so thoroughly debated and tested that it should be dead by now. Try this at home. Take a 30 degree bag or quilt. Sleep outside two nights that gets into the mid twenties. First night, sleep in boxers. Second night sleep in full clothing, down pants, down jacket and down booties. Report back which worked better.
Another Kevin
02-06-2013, 15:50
If you're overdressed for the conditions, so you sweat in what you're wearing in the bag, and then a draft gets in, you're going to sleep cold, and start out with wet clothes in the morning.
I'm still puzzled about where the scout thing about not sleeping in anything but undies came from - unless it was to keep you from crawling into a down bag in wet clothes. That's usually a mistake, leading to wet clothes and a wet bag, a potentially lethal combination.
I try to plan so that the weight of my bag is adequate to keep me warm in the temperatures I expect while wearing my baselayer inside it. That way if it's colder than forecast I can still be OK by putting on my fleecies, and if it's much colder than forecast, I can wear every stitch of clothing I brought and still be safe. And if it's not as cold as forecast, I can open the bag and/or peel off the baselayer.
The weather has to get fairly warm before you'll see me sleeping without my tuque. I sleep cold without it.
Just a few suggestions (I've camped in down to -30 numerous times; many years mountaineering in MT and CO; snowshoe backpacking in Adirondacks, etc).
-Have a quality down bag and keep it dry.
-Have a full set of wool sleeping clothes, head to toe, and keep them only for sleeping so they stay dry. Use a good wool hat or balaclava. Thick (dry) wool socks and down booties are good for the feet.
-When you stop hiking, change into sleeping clothes and get into bag as soon as possible. Then plan a way to cook, eat, etc while in the bag. Use a tent with a good vestibule to keep the cooking fumes away. Don't worry about bears during winter camping, they are hibernating.
-Push hot fluids. They make a big difference and give you something to do when the winter night is 15 hrs long.
This below-zero tactic clearly is overkill for the AT in the Spring, although I must say that it was a lot colder than I expected when I did GA-NC, and Virginia recently. Most of the other hikers I saw seemed to have trouble keeping warm, and the main reason for town trips was to dry clothes.
Another Kevin
02-06-2013, 15:59
If you're overdressed for the conditions, so you sweat in what you're wearing in the bag, and then a draft gets in, you're going to sleep cold, and start out with wet clothes in the morning.
I'm still puzzled about where the scout thing about not sleeping in anything but undies came from - unless it was to keep you from crawling into a down bag in wet clothes. That's usually a mistake, leading to wet clothes and a wet bag, a potentially lethal combination.
I try to plan so that the weight of my bag is adequate to keep me warm in the temperatures I expect while wearing my baselayer inside it. That way if it's colder than forecast I can still be OK by putting on my fleecies, and if it's much colder than forecast, I can wear every stitch of clothing I brought and still be safe. And if it's not as cold as forecast, I can open the bag and/or peel off the baselayer.
The weather has to get fairly warm before you'll see me sleeping without my tuque. I sleep cold without it.
All right. A rational sane introspective hiker willing to consider options. You have spent the time to clarify your position. I called you out and you replied clearly. Thanks for that. I wish more folks asking questions would respond as you have. It makes it easier to help IF we(I) can.
You've received lots of solid advice from everyone already. Applying any one piece of advice will have you sleeping warmer. I'm not going to rehash all that great advice but I really wouldn't do the double sleeping bag thing or quilt and sleeping bag thing unless you absolutely have to. It's just too much wt and bulk even if the two are top of the line UL down pieces. You are starting to get a bit volumous with all the clothes you are anticipating hauling in the beginning anyhow.
Like you Fairway, despite having completed multiple thru-hikes, I knew I needed more cold weather hiking/camping experience so I did just that. I still need to do more of it though. None of us know everything and we evolve in our hiking. You will too. Don't fret the cold. Preparation, experience, and knowledge of cold weather hiking/camping is more constructive. I think you know that.
I suppose you have a Contrail, Rainbow, Moment, etc. An extra CCF pad, in addition to the ZLite, OR a single higher R -Value dedicated cold weather pad/mattress may help insulating you from the ground enough that you sleep warmer. I would also explore the use of a warmer, say 10-15* bag for the beginning, and rolling with the quilt when warmer as Lyle originally suggested. This gives you practice with the quilt when it's not as critical to you sleeping comfort. As I alluded to in my first post, and in conjunction with what Grayfox has said, there's a learning curve with quilts. I've learned to avoid a lot of drafts through experience and teaming up the quilt with the appropriate pad. When very cold, I avoid most escaping heat losses with the quilt by using the bivy, but I tarp and cowboy mostly, and a liner. It can be a bit cumbersome at times but that system gives me lots of variety in how I sleep and gear up. I still get some drafts though since I toss and turn throughout the night. With that set up and a new lofty GoLite 3 season 850 down 20* quilt while cowboying or under a tarp with careful site selection wearing a mid wt base layer long sleeve merino shirt, silk long johns, Goosefeet down Booties, beanie, nylon gloves, I've slept comfortably down to 10*. I'm a neutral sleeper with cold extremity concerns. With regular under 10* nights or on treks with greater exposure I switch to a sleeping bag. It's simpler and keeps me warmer. If I can possibly help further I would be glad to. Enjoy the journey.
I'd like to thank everyone again for sharing. I've read every word twice or more. Karma13 said "A 0-degree bag with a 30-degree mat is only going to be good to 30 degrees." That summation identified my problems. I've learned that I'm going to need better bottom insulation. The quilt is not the problem, I am completely comfortable with it. The issue is heat loss from the ground. I am going to carry a 2nd pad or a plush neo air xtherm (thanks gg-man). Dogwood, you mentioned a dedicated winter pad. Does a reasonably light dedicated CCF winter pad exist?
Y'all keep asking for specifics about my stuff, here ya go...
The 20 degree quilt is an EE revaltionX ~23 oz
The +30 degree synthetic bag is a LaFuma Xtreme 950. ~34 oz
I sleep inside a TT Contrail. 24oz
A ULA Circuit is on my back. 40 oz
I cut 2 panels off my Zlite ~8 oz (at night the pack goes under my feet)
Wool long johns
Wool cap
liner gloves
wool mitts wool socks
micro fleece top
Extra Puffy clothes: Sleeping bag and Quilt could replace...
Patagonia Down Sweater ~12oz -I have this.
Surplus Field pant liners ~10 oz -These will cost me $12.
Silly down booties -Big Cranky's weigh ~2.5oz! I'm calling BS on that. Please, prove me wrong.
One of my ideas for tackling the cold, instead of carrying extra puffy clothes, is to carry a quilt and bag combo. I'm still not certain if I should carry the quilt with extra clothes or drop the puffy clothes altogether and replace them with the +30 degree bag. My thinking being the combo is I'll have 2 blankets to use in all kinds of unconventional manners when I'm not bedded down. It seems most of you experienced hikers have concerns with this way of thinking. Words like heavy, bulky, inefficient describe your reasoning. I'd like to explain why I'm strongly considering this approach.
Most lightweight 0-10 degree bags weigh between 2.5- 3lbs and cost more than $300. My quilt bag combo weighs ~3 lbs 9oz. I can't justify spending over $300 for 9 oz lost. That equates to spending over 10% of my AT budget for gear, that in my mind, I already have. Since gear on a thru hike is going to get wrecked anyway, this thinking doesn't add up . I'll carry the extra 9 oz.
I don't see bulk being an issue either. Leaving Hiawassee, Fontana, Erwin, and Atkins will be the coldest/bulkiest carries. If I average a reasonable 16-17 miles per day all of those carries will require around 3.5 days of food. On the PCT, a 4-5 day pack bulk out of town is the standard. Also water is routinely 10-12 miles apart. In SoCal, I carried 4 liters of water (~8.8lbs) many times and many miles. The Bear Vault weighs over 2.5 lbs too. I had to carry that stupid thing over 200 miles. Bulk isn't an issue if I carry the quilt/bag combo and drop the puffy clothing.
The word ineffecient has struck a chord, this is exactly what I don't want. I don't know how ineffiecient/efficient the thermodynamics I propose will be. If I bought a zero degree bag then I wouldn't have to worry so much. At the same time I look at all the insulation I have with my combo and think how can it not be effective. If anyone can help explain this particular concern that would be fantastic.
I don't see the point in carrying extra insulation only for sitting around camp. I can wrap myself up in the sleeping bag, it can be my down jacket. The down quilt can drape across my legs while I cook. My mind wonders off to all the folks who have lived on this earth before me. The people who actually had to live through N American winters without modern tech. They would love to have the options that I'm stressing over.
I came to this thinking because I know that on a thru hike, my time in camp sitting around is very minimal. I set up my tent. The pack explodes in the tent. If its cold I'll put on the appropriate clothes. Then I'll make my bed for the night. After that I'll go cook dinner. The insulation is just lying there in my tent not doing anything for me.
tl;dr I have to get a warmer sleeping pad. Quilts are awesome. Will a combo quilt sleeping bag be awesome too? Multitasking gear.
Silly down booties -Big Cranky's weigh ~2.5oz! I'm calling BS on that. Please, prove me wrong.
I recently got a pair of Goosefeet down booties with overstuffing, and the pair of them weigh only 2.8 ounces. That's for both. With maximum overstuff. (I forget the size, but I don't have freakishly small feet. I think they were a medium.)
On the other hand, they're the one piece of gear I keep putting into my pile, then taking out, then putting in, then taking out. I got them recently so I haven't had a chance to really test them on a winter trip. But inside, even in bed, they just don't seem to keep my feet any warmer than plain socks. In fact, they seem to chill my feet down. It's a mystery to me.
But everybody raves about them, so at the moment they're in. I figure worse comes to worse, I can use them for something else: mittens, water bottle cozies, whatever. Then send them home when I dump my winter gear.
For me, down booties make a world of difference for a comfortable night's sleep in cold conditions. One of the most comforting and effective pieces of luxury gear I've ever used.
I just looked at the Goosefeet down "socks". Not sure if these are 100% comparable to actual down booties.
By themselves, they are only rated to 35 degrees, seems kinda skimpy compared to most booties I've had experience with. Even with 100% overfill, they only rate them down to 15 degrees. I think they refer to them as socks instead of booties for a reason. You may be right, these may not be much warmer than good wool socks.
A more conventional pair of down booties will definitely keep your feet toasty. I usually had to kick them off three quarters of the way through the night as my feet end up too warm - nice feeling on a very cold night.
Good to know, Lyle. Thanks.
Karma13,
I would still give them a try. You say you have the max overfill, so they should help out. Even if they aren't a lot warmer than wool socks, I bet they'd be more comfortable on the feet than tight fitting socks.
Just my opinion until you prove to yourself otherwise.
88BlueGT
02-07-2013, 13:35
The FIRST thing I would do is swap out the quilt for a real bag....
bigcranky
02-07-2013, 14:09
We just got my wife a pair of Goosefeet. With 50% overfill they are 2.5 ounces. They loft up very well, and have far more insulation and loft than any socks I have ever seen. They are comparable to my Sierra Designs down booties in loft, though of course the Goosefeet do *not* have any sort of sole for walking around camp. I have no idea how he rates these, as she will be wearing them inside the tent and inside her bag at night. I would not give a second thought to the "35 degree" rating as being the lower limit of the base model inside a sleeping bag.
The Goosefeet did seem to run a little on the small side. They fit, just, and one was slightly shorter than the other. FYI. Otherwise they are very well made, and loft up like crazy when you take them out of their tiny stuff sack. Compared to my big down booties, these are something that will make the cut on every cold weather trip.
For best results, wear a pair of medium weight merino wool socks inside any down booties. They are just a like a down jacket - you wouldn't wear that over your bare skin.
Dogwood, you mentioned a dedicated winter pad. Does a reasonably light dedicated CCF winter pad exist?
I'm no expert on COLD weather sleeping pads so I can only offer what I do, why, and what I know. Exped, Thermarest, and Big Agnes, as well as others, make REALLY COLD weather sleeping pads. If any are UL that depends on how one defines a UL COLD weather pad. My coldest hiking temps only go down to about -10* and those aren't experienced on a regular basis so I haven't yet felt the need to add one dedicated truly COLD weather pad to my gear arsenal. When I start hiking in Alaska, Patagonia, and the Alps during shoulder seasons I'll probably strongly consider purchasing one then. I also don't gear up with one pad when needing/desiring extra insulation and warmth during COLD weather treks. I instead opt for a modular system combining different R-Value CCF pads(sometimes two thinner CCF ones) with a Women's Neo Air. The modular system gives me more flexibility in how I gear up. I switch out to the Women's Neo Air becuase it has a slightly higher R-value than the normal Neo Air Shortie pad and it's a little longer (66" long for the womens compared to 47" for the Shortie). You may not require a dedicated COLD weather pad for the amount of time you might use one on the AT so the expense may not yet warrant it. You might want to employ some of the good advice already mentioned before opting for a single dedicated COLD weather pad.
Some of those pads by Exped and BA, and other manufacturers, have HIGH R-Values and really do a much better job at insulating from the ground then my typical cold weather sleep set-up but I don't have the cold sleeping issues you seem to have. I also tend to tackle hiking issues from several angles at once to solve problems; it's part of how I view UL hiking, everything being integrated. One thing has the potential to affect many other things. As a ULer I also heavily consider the wt of my kit. Another thing that might seem a bit esoterical is that I have a fairly good tolerance level. At times, I like pushing myself. This is going to sound very strange to some but to some degree(no pun intended) I can think myself warm(warmer). Think of those Tibetan monks that COMFORTABLY sleep outside on the snow in 0* temps with just their prayer shawls. If they can do it so can I with the right practice. Bet you haven't ever heard that before on a hiking website!
I have the Goosefeet Down socks/booties in XL with 1/2 oz of extra 850 down and 20 d Pertex Quantum (with DWR) silny shell. They weigh just over 3 0z and virtually disappear into my pack taking up negligible volume. I bought mine when Ben Smith, founder of Goosefeet, was just starting out about 3 1/2 yrs ago making down booties on the side in a custom order fashion. Mine came with the Dyneema Over Bootie with a foam sole insert. That over bootie in XL weighs about 2 oz. I've never used them. I use my down socks in my sleeping bag and maybe for short hops around camp in the middle of the night when nature calls. I wouldn't recommend extensively wearing them around camp without the over bootie. I think Ben makes a distinction between a sock and protective more durable over bootie because he doesn't want folks to think, what he calls socks, are designed to be used for walking around in, like a bootie. Goosefeet down booties, or if you like socks, are really not the same as REI's or Sierra Design's, booties. Anyone purchasing Goosefeet down socks/booties should understand they are a UL item. Feathered Friends, Nunatak, maybe Western Mountaineering, etc also make UL high end down socks/booties but FOR MY purposes the Goosefeet Down Socks/Booties provided the BEST overall combination of attributes that I could afford when I bought them with the fastest turn around time.
WalksInDark
02-12-2013, 00:21
Down booties: I have worn out several pairs of Sierra Designs Drizone models. (The reason I wore them out is that I wear them around the camp...walking through less than ankle deep snow...and in my home once my work day is done)
These particular booties have an insulated rubber type sole...and shed snow and light rain like a duck. When the temps get real low, I wear the booties in my sleeping bag.
At -20 and sleeping in a tent laid directly on the snow, my down filled EXPED pad kept me so warm and toasty, I would occasionally have to put an arm or leg out of my 0 degree Motbell down sleeping pad...and I sleep extremely COLD.
For me the comfort of the EXPED is worth the extra weight. Your mileage might vary.
glassman
02-12-2013, 01:21
under you is important when you sleep to stay warm. smart wool and darn tough socks and a good wool hat and thermals that covers your ears. remember that under your arm pits and your croch are the warmest parts of your body, it could save a finger or two.