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MOWGLI
06-16-2005, 07:57
There is a fascinating new book by Richard Louv entitled Last Child in the Woods. It is all the rage among outdoor educators these days. I'm only on page 70-something, but it's a great read. If there are any young or expectant fathers out there - I would highly recommend this book. If there are any Grandmothers or Grandfathers out there - give some thought to buying this book for your Son or Son-in-Law for Fathers Day.

For more info - check out the link below. If you like to read and enjoy the outdoors - you won't be disappointed.

http://www.thefuturesedge.com/page2.html

Big Dawg
06-16-2005, 10:21
Thanks, Mowgli16,,,, I just e'mailed the link to my wife,,, w/ a note (hint, hint, for Dad's day). This book seems very interesting. Expectant dad here, just waiting to introduce my child to the wonders of nature! :D

Jaybird
06-16-2005, 11:21
[QUOTE=MOWGLI16]There is a fascinating new book by Richard Louv entitled Last Child in the Woods. It is all the rage among outdoor educators these days. I'm only on page 70-something, but it's a great read. If there are any young or expectant fathers out there - I would highly recommend this book. If there are any Grandmothers or Grandfathers out there - give some thought to buying this book for your Son or Son-in-Law for Fathers Day. For more info - check out the link below. If you like to read and enjoy the outdoors - you won't be disappointed.



Haven't read the first 70 pages... but, from the BLURB on your supplied LINK...the book sounds like a heap load of PSYCHO-BABBLE ....& nothing to do with hiking.


statements like: ..."Our children are part of a truly vast experiment ..."
prove the point well about the book & those of its kind.


I'd rather get another TIE for FATHER'S DAY to add to my "never-will-wear" collection! hehehehehehehe

MOWGLI
06-16-2005, 11:25
Haven't read the first 70 pages... but, from the BLURB on your supplied LINK...the book sounds like a heap load of PSYCHO-BABBLE ....& nothing to do with hiking.



Not at all Jaybird. Considering your age, and the times we currently live in, I think this book would really resonate with you. It addresses why most kids today would rather play video games than go hiking (and much more), and what WE can do to try and reverse this trend.

Ford Prefect
06-16-2005, 14:40
It addresses why most kids today would rather play video games than go hiking (and much more), and what WE can do to try and reverse this trend.
<babble>
What to do:
- Teach your children respect. Respect for the world they live in, respect for the other people who live in that world, and respect for of themself.
- Teach your children that, while the world does not, on the whole, understand it, there actually are moral absolutes.
- Teach your children those moral absolutes and why they are absolute.

What to hope for:
- That they pass those values on to (1) their peers and (2) their children.
- That those who would rather play video games actually do stay at home and play video games. They would, likely, make for poor companions on the trail.
</babble>
:sun

MOWGLI
06-16-2005, 14:59
What to do:
- Teach your children respect. Respect for the world they live in, respect for the other people who live in that world, and respect for of themself.
- Teach your children that, while the world does not, on the whole, understand it, there actually are moral absolutes.
- Teach your children those moral absolutes and why they are absolute.



Ford, do you really think that the above three things are a prescription for getting children outside as opposed to inside? Isn't it possible that all three of these things could be taught to children, yet they would be deathly afraid of "the woods"? I would suggest that it's much more complex than that.

Think about your childhood. We're nearly the same age. When I was a kid, my summers were spent outdoors, fishing, exploring, catching turtles, frogs & snakes. In the summer, I was gone all day, often miles from home. When I was 14 & 15 I would regularly ride my bike 6-10 miles from home. Sometimes 25 miles - one way. We used to ride from New City, NY to Bear Mountain, and along the way we'd stop and jump off a bridge 20' above a reservoir. That has made me into the person I am today. Kids rarely do that stuff today. As a result, they are often uncomfortable with things wild & free, They are bored by it quickly. "Been there - done that."

Today, parents are afraid to let their children out of their sight. Unsupervised outside play is considered dangerous. To me, that's really sad.

What is it about technology and our current culture that makes kids want to spend most of their time watching tv, playing computer games, and video games? This book is addressing many of those issues. It is really quite an eye opener.

Anyway, just thought I'd chime in and reply.

Nightwalker
06-16-2005, 15:05
What to do:
- Teach your children respect.
(bigsnip)
:sun
Very good post.

Ford Prefect
06-16-2005, 16:16
Ford, do you really think that the above three things are a prescription for getting children outside as opposed to inside? Isn't it possible that all three of these things could be taught to children, yet they would be deathly afraid of "the woods"? I would suggest that it's much more complex than that. A total answer, as in "the silver-bullet"? No, it is more complex; and I'll get to why I think that in a bit. But, it could be argued that any child could grow up deathly afraid of the woods, even if he/she is taught all about the big, bad out-of-doors. Stepping out of my comfort zone to give you a personal example: My father was (and still is) an avid fisherman. Taught me everything he knows about fishing. But I would, to this day, rather buy a fiish than catch one. It's simply not my bag. And when my children asked me to teach them to fish, I told 'em Poppop was way better at fishing, so we should invite him. (Oh, and I hope he's not reading this ... :eek: or the jig is up! )


Think about your childhood. We're nearly the same age. When I was a kid, my summers were spent outdoors, fishing, exploring, catching turtles, frogs & snakes. In the summer, I was gone all day, often miles from home. When I was 14 & 15 I would regularly ride my bike 6-10 miles from home. Sometimes 25 miles - one way. We used to ride from New City, NY to Bear Mountain, and along the way we'd stop and jump off a bridge 20' above a reservoir. That has made me into the person I am today. Kids rarely do that stuff today. As a result, they are often uncomfortable with things wild & free, They are bored by it quickly. "Been there - done that." Sounds like we did indeed share similar childhoods. Although I watched my friends catch the fish and the snakes (turtles and frog - no problem). And, yes, like yourself, that (and more) has all been balled up into the person I am today. One of my bike rides, at age 14, was over 1000 miles (although it was an organized one). And my reservoir was actually an abandoned quarry. No bridge, but plenty of rock ledges at all sorts of heights!


Today, parents are afraid to let their children out of their sight. Unsupervised outside play is considered dangerous. To me, that's really sad. OK, now for the complex part (at least for me). This made me actually think a bit deeper (but probably not deep enough:) ). And you are correct. Today's parents, sadly, do seem way overprotective, compared to what we "survived" as children. However, I think the root cause is a bit deeper, but still a "parental issue".

Personally, I think too few parents take an active enough role in their responsibility(ies) as parents. For example, I think it is incumbent upon parents to teach their children; not to rely upon the government (federal, state, local) or industry (child-care, pre-school, etc.) to do the job for them. (Hmm... maybe I should rethink that bit about having dragged Poppop into the whole fishing thing?) Anyhow, that was the aim of my last post.

Also, I think today's parents don't really understand how to apply "age-appropriate" rights and responsibilities for their children. Again, an example (albeit a simple one); The 6 - 10 mile bike ride is age-appropriate for a 14-15 year old, but not for a 6 year old. If our childhoods were similar (and I think they were), I'm sure your parents gave you more tether (or rights) as they watched you learn/demonstrate more responsibility(ies). That is the position I am currently in with my children. My 12 y.o. is at the age he can now go out into the great wide wilderness with his scout troop. And it's stinking difficult to loosen those apron strings, at least for me.


What is it about technology and our current culture that makes kids want to spend most of their time watching tv, playing computer games, and video games? I dunno. I don't get that either. But, if what I have said above has any basis or truth to it, some pshrink somewhere could probably argue that the technolgy and culture is some form of psuedo-parent something or another. But that's WAY out of my field!


This book is addressing many of those issues. It is really quite an eye opener.

Anyway, just thought I'd chime in and reply.And my reply back:
I don't think we're agruing here, MOGLI. I think we're agreeing with each other, just from different viewpoints. If that makes sense.

I do know two things:
(1) I'll likely be reading a new book soon, and
(2) I truely look forward to meeting someday. You sound like someone I'd enjoy getting to know.

FP
p.s. - sorry for the long-winded reply.

MOWGLI
06-16-2005, 17:08
I do know two things:
(1) I'll likely be reading a new book soon, and
(2) I truely look forward to meeting someday. You sound like someone I'd enjoy getting to know.



No, I didn't think you were arguing. And yes, I'd enjoy meeting you too.

I guess we pretty much agree here, but I think you're a bit more cynical about today's parents and the public schools than me. But that's another book and another conversation.

If you ever get around to reading the book, I'd enjoy talking to you about it. In fact, I think I'm going to start a non-fiction book discussion group here in my community. The first book I'll propose reading is this one.

Mags
06-16-2005, 18:11
Today, parents are afraid to let their children out of their sight. Unsupervised outside play is considered dangerous. To me, that's really sad.


Talking to many of my friends, who are young parents or young parents to be, I think you hit the nail on the head. Biking twenty-fives miles unsupervised just does not happen today for most children.

A child's time is s structured today. School, after school activities, weekends booked solid, official summer camps. Any wonder when a child does have free time they want to play X-box and do nothing?

Even in the supposedly progressive town in where I live, many young parents see the outdoors as full of boogeyman waiting to harm their child. These are even parents who have done outdoor actitvities!

Why is it the ourdoors is scary..but crowded citites are safe?

Mags
06-16-2005, 18:15
I thought his name sounded familiar..he spoke yesterday at the local bookstore. Doh!
Based on your review, may have been something I would have enjoyed seeing.
***********

RICHARD LOUV
Wednesday, June 15, 7:30 p.m.

As children's connections to nature diminish and the social, psychological, and spiritual implications become apparent, new research shows that nature can offer powerful therapy for such maladies as depression, obesity, and attention-deficit disorder. In Last Child in the Woods (Algonquin, $24.95), author RICHARD LOUV talks with parents, teachers, and child-development researchers who recognize these threats and offer solutions in which parents can help their kids experience the natural world more deeply.

Footslogger
06-16-2005, 19:24
There is a fascinating new book by Richard Louv entitled Last Child in the Woods. ==================================
Thanks Mowgli ...just ordered a copy. Plan on reading it and then passing it on to my 2 kids. They are in their late 20's, not married or parents yet, but they grew up in the electronic generation and are likely to pass on that heritage without some encouragement from me. Gave my son as good an outdoor experience as I could in scouting but even with that I think he would rather have a joy stick in his hand than a hiking stick. Ironically, my daughter who did not spend as much time in the outdoors as her brother, absolutely loves being in the woods. She's flying out to Wyoming for the July 4th weekend and we're all headed up to Yellowstone for some camping, great scenery and hopfully some pretty neat wildlife.

As for my growing up years ...about the closest thing I had to a piece of high tech electronics was a set of Lafayette Walkie Talkies that I had to build myself from a kit. My dad insisted that if I was going to have those gadgets I'd better understand what made them tick. Like many others among us who grew up in the 50's, I was pushed out the door once summer vacation hit and was free to spend hours exploring the woods around our house. I packed some food/snacks, was out the door right after breakfast and often didn't come home until dinner time. Neither my parents (or I) ever gave a second thought to the fact that it might have been dangerous.

Anyway ...thanks again for mentioning this book. Looking forward to reading it.

'Slogger
AT 2003

Bolivershagnasty
06-16-2005, 19:27
We'll I don't know if I'd read the book. I do kinda of get the concept. Being a single parent dad I try to get my daughter out often. She goe's to a very conservitive christian school. Bob Jones University. (of course theres alot of preppy eye browes raise when I drive up to let her out in my 4WD hollerin "get her done") lol..But it's a good primary school. We go out to the mountains all the time. She's kind of not wanting too now but we will continue. I grew up in the Ozark mountains and at 12 I would get my mother to drive me out 20 miles into the woods and camp for the weekend. She'd pick me up on Sunday afternoon. Later I'd ride one of the horses out all day on trail and camp and then ride back the next. At 12 to 18 I ran a trap line every morning at 4.30 a.m. and reset it at 4.30 that evening in November thru Jan. Now I'm not a backwards mountain hick, I actually grew up with a modern lifesyle, I just chose to do the things I liked which was different. But yea it makes you the person you are. I've made many decissions that cost someone their life without a thought. I've looked at a mountain and cried. You should get your kids out all you can because "thats" what they will respect as a grown up.

Nightwalker
06-17-2005, 00:36
You should get your kids out all you can because "thats" what they will respect as a grown up.
My kids are 22 and 25. They still talk about the MANY hikes we went on when they were kids. They're both still willing to go out and try it again, even though they're both out of hiking shape now.

Pretty cool, huh?

:D

Tha Wookie
06-17-2005, 10:07
MOW,


thanks for the link. I've passed it on to a friend here in Athens doing her masters in outdoor classroom elementary education. If you have any other similar resources, could you post more links for her?

sincerely,

TW

SGT Rock
06-20-2005, 19:58
I think I heard about this on the radio. Is this the book where he uses the phrase "Nature Deficit Disorder"?

MOWGLI
06-20-2005, 20:21
I think I heard about this on the radio. Is this the book where he uses the phrase "Nature Deficit Disorder"?

Yes.

Funny thing... Friday night I'm walking to hear some live bluegrass a couple miles from my home. I stopped off at a Mexican Restaurant and was looking at the menu when a young couple with three kids came in. She says to the waiter, "we'll wait for a table outside, because my children are so much calmer out there than they are inside." I turned to her and said, "funny you should say that, 'cause I'm reading a book right now that explains why that is so."

We started chatting and she ended up taking down the name of the book and is going to pick it up.

MOWGLI
06-20-2005, 20:22
MOW,


thanks for the link. I've passed it on to a friend here in Athens doing her masters in outdoor classroom elementary education. If you have any other similar resources, could you post more links for her?

sincerely,

TW

Nate,

The back of the book has a fairly comprehensive listing of additional resources. If I think of anything else, I'll be sure to send it your way.

bogey
06-21-2005, 01:00
...

A child's time is s structured today. School, after school activities, weekends booked solid, official summer camps. Any wonder when a child does have free time they want to play X-box and do nothing?...

This is an observation about the structured existance. Whether it be parents wanting their children to be "engaged" in more things than they (the parents) were able to do at that age, learn skills, meet people gain confidence, OR to follow the advice of child psychologists and other authority figures who push overengagement as the be-all, end-all answer to drugs, mischief, gangs, etc.

I don't know what the answer is, but I enjoy reading all you'uns' observations.

Rain Man
06-21-2005, 10:30
- Teach your children respect. Respect for the world they live in, respect for the other people who live in that world, and respect for of themself.
- Teach your children that, while the world does not, on the whole, understand it, there actually are moral absolutes.

Too bad those who destroyed the World Trade Center (they did believe in absolutes the world does not understand) didn't also have that respect for the other people who live in that world.

Moral absolutes, in terms of religious supremelism, are absolutely disrespectful and evil in every form, as the mortal world demonstrates daily.

This book looks great, and I love the term "nature deficit disorder"!!!!

Rain:sunMan

.

gsingjane
06-21-2005, 11:38
As a long-time Girl Scout leader who has been on more kid campouts than she can count (and has the eyebags and grey hair to prove it!), and also as someone who very much enjoys introducing kids to the joys of outdoor living, I have the following to contribute to this discussion (with the caveat that I haven't yet read this very interesting-sounding book). The primary reason I find that parents are reluctant or fearful about having their children participate in outdoor activities is... well... fear. Many parents are virtually hysterical about ticks/Lyme disease (they will want the leader to give the child full body checks for ticks... something I would never even THINK of doing). Or, West Nile Virus. Or, skin cancer due to inadequate sunscreen or sun protection. Or, that the child will either get sick from using DEET or from not using DEET. Or, that the child will be bitten by a rabid animal. Or, just the general notion that the child will sicken due to inadequate sanitation or hydration. Or, that the child will find it too difficult to carry their own gear, or will be homesick, or will find the experience too challenging in some sense.

There is a huge amount of information out there about the "dangers" of the outdoors. Maybe everyone even knows a little "too much" about what can go wrong! It's interesting to me, in that, of course, none of these parents are at all risk-averse when it comes to activities like driving with their children, a pastime that is statistically much more likely to result in serious injury or even death. But I'd say that, given the amount of fear out there (and the publicity that these "hazards" are continually given), many parents are glad to take the path of least resistance and stay out of the woods altogether. We do a huge amount of education and reassurance (and, hey, it's not exactly like we're doing 10-day excursions in the Whites here!) but it's very hard to get around what has become the "conventional wisdom" that the out of doors is threatening, dangerous and no place for kids.

Jane in CT

MOWGLI
06-21-2005, 19:08
The primary reason I find that parents are reluctant or fearful about having their children participate in outdoor activities is... well... fear. Many parents are virtually hysterical about ticks/Lyme disease
Jane in CT

Jane, thanks for chiming in. My wife had Lyme in 92/93 when we were living in Orange County, NY. She refused to hike with me until we moved to Tennessee. They have ticks down here - but Lyme is seldom encountered.

I imagine living in CT that the fear of ticks is somewhat understandable.

Jeffrey Hunter

gsingjane
06-21-2005, 20:28
Yes, you certainly hear a great deal about Lyme disease up here (we live about 10 miles west of East Lyme, "home" to the disease). I've had it myself... contrary to some others' experience, I had a dose of mega-antibiotics and that's the last I've heard or seen of it for going on three years now (this isn't to downgrade others' wretched experiences, just that mine wasn't SO horrible). I just think it is too bad that the solution to the Lyme disease problem is just not to go outside at all, though. Especially when, according to what I've heard, the tick has to be engaged for 48 hours to transmit Lyme in the first place -- this is more than ample time for a parent to check over the child. But I guess if you aren't inclined to send your kids outside, the prospect of getting Lyme isn't going to make you any more so!

Jane in CT