Titanium pot for solo use

[blue indian]

Im changing up my cook setup a bit and have made a homemade alcohol stove (thank you Andrew Skurka) and I would like to down size my cookpot. I dont really cook in the backcountry and would just need to boil water for myself. Im looking at titanium pots/mugs around the 550ml size with a wider profile. Ive been doing my research at all the usual suppliers for this type of item.

My question to WB is do yall have any good suggestions on a pot that would fit these specks that you have experience with? Especially with a cat can alcohol stove? Thanks!

[RedBeerd]

I went with the pan Skurka uses and is also highly regarded. Evernew pot. He uses 900ml I believe.

[Stir Fry]

Blue Indian i sent you a PM about a pot.

[MuddyWaters]

If you are using the super cat stove, ie. fancy feast, etc, you will probably find it is too much stove for such a small pot.

Titanium, is actually pretty heavy.
My snowpeak 600 weighs 2.8 oz .
The IMUSA 10cm aluminum mug weighs 2.4 oz.

I have a thin SS chinese 10cm mug from a fleamarket, cost $1, weighs 2.2oz.
correction, weighed this a while ago and it is 2.06 oz.

And then the 2cup flatbottom pot fosters pot from Zelph, weighs 1oz. The standard foster can pot weighs even less.

[blue indian]

If you are using the super cat stove, ie. fancy feast, etc, you will probably find it is too much stove for such a small pot.

Titanium, is actually pretty heavy.
My snowpeak 600 weighs 2.8 oz .
The IMUSA 10cm aluminum mug weighs 2.4 oz.
I have a thin SS chinese 10cm mug from a fleamarket, cost $1, weighs 2.2oz.
And then the 2cup flatbottom pot fosters pot from Zelph, weighs 1oz. The standard foster can pot weighs even less.


THose fosters cans look pretty awesome. Cheap and super lightweight. Do you have any experience with these MuddyWaters? Thanks for the suggestions!

[blue indian]

ie: how durable is it, do they work well with the fancy feast stoves (in terms of efficiency, balance)

[MuddyWaters]

The supercat style stove really needs a wide bottom larger pot, like a 1-1.3 L
It will totally engulf a small dia pot with flames up the sides.

Its easy, its cheap, it weighs 0.3 oz
Its a pain to allow to heat up before putting pot on
Its fast, but innefficient too.

Really need a smaller stove for a foster pot.
I use a flat bottom foster can. Works great for boiling water for solo use. Need to have place where it isnt exposed to forces in pack to store it so it doesnt flex until it cracks. Mine goes outside, in big mesh pocket, on top. No stresses on it. Others put in a plastic container, but that negates weight savings really. You do have to baby it, but its not hard with a little care.

[blue indian]

I was afraid that the foster can wouldn't work that well with the cat stove since it isn't very wide. Kinda bummed about that. I'm searching for a evernew 600ml right now.

What stove do you use with the foster can stove setup?

[MuddyWaters]

I use a little tealight cup, works for me.

[kbarnard]

I had this same question and tried a few different pot options with different alcohol stoves today to test boil time. The pot I found worked best for me was my snow peak 29oz pot which is fairly narrow.

I also found this article which has a lot of good information to get you started: http://jwbasecamp.com/Articles/SuperCat/index.html

[blue indian]

Very in depth info there.Thanks! Apparently he thinks a fosters can would work fine because the material is so thin. I'm pretty tempted to go ahead and get one. But I will probably do some more research.

Does anyone else have any first hand experience with a cat stove and a fosters can setup? Or something similar?

[MuddyWaters]

From that site:

"But my point here is even when using fairly narrow pots, a significant amount of energy transfer occurs when a stove's flame wraps around the pot bottom and travels up the sides. "

And that is true. You can see that on the scorch marks up the sides of the pots.
The problem is, you cannot pick up a pot that is engulfed in flames, until the fuel burns itself totally out.
For pots with folding handles, the handles become too hot to use also.

I watched someone try to pick up a pot heated by supercat one day, wearing synthetic gloves. The pot handle melted the gloves , luckily he pulled away and it didnt melt to his skin too badly.



All those things are really undesireable.
Speed isnt that important.
But efficiency is.
So is being able to pick a pot up.
Ive seen supercats melt aluminum windscreens

Cover the bottom of the pot with flame, dont let it go up sides, use a tight fitting windscreen, and it will be efficient.

Really, the supercat isnt that great of a stove.
Hard, or impossible, to snuff it out
Hard, or impossible, to recover unburnt fuel if you do
Too much flame except for big wide pots






"

[Odd Man Out]

I use simmer-cat stoves with success. Same as a super cat but with only one row of holes. Cuts back on the size of the flame so it can work better with smaller pots. Cutting power increases efficiency, usually. Also, if you elevate your pot about an 1/8 of an inch above the simmer cat on a pot stand, it increases the power output slightly and you eliminate the need to prime the stove, usually.

[blue indian]

MuddyWaters you are making me rethink my setup!...I was drawn to the supercat because I could make it at home with materials I already had, its simplicity, and its weight. I guess I need to reconsider my options...

I have another can lying around so I will try the simmer-cat style. Here goes some more trail and error...

Thanks for all the suggestions folks, keep em coming

[MuddyWaters]

You can make them all at home.
Some arent worth the trouble.
Just my opinion, but if it requires "priming", or waiting for it to "bloom", its too much trouble.

[Odd Man Out]

Just my opinion, but if it requires "priming", or waiting for it to "bloom", its too much trouble.

I know a lot of the attraction of side burners is that you don't have to have a pot stand. But after spilling my dinner a couple of times, I started making pot stands out of hardware cloth to give a wider base to make the pot lest tippy. That's when I noticed that elevating the pot above the stove had a several advantages. I use hardware cloth with 1/2" squares. If you make a ring three squares tall, it will be just over 1 1/2 inch tall. The cat food can is 1 3/8" so that gives a nice gap between the pot and the stove. I have recently learned you can cut quite a few of the cross wires out the pot stand to make it lighter.

One advantage of this system was there is no need to prime and bloom. The stove functions as a center burner for a few seconds (albeit a weak one) until it heats up and the flames come out of the side. So it still blooms, but you can put your pot on the stove right away. Also, because the pot is not in contact with the stove, it doesn't act like a big heat sink to keep the alcohol from vaporizing. I believe this makes for faster blooms and also more predictable since this heat sink effect is variable depending on the temperature of the water. Also, as mentioned earlier, this makes the simmer cat more powerful so it does more than simmer, but it's still not the blowtorch of a super cat. Also, if you do want to do some cooking, you have the option of lifting the pot (once it has come to a boil), use a stick to remove the pot stand, and replace the pot right on the stove (careful not to tip). It will now continue to burn but at a less powerful rate (more of a simmer). It's a bit of a hassle, but this way you can use it as a two speed stove (high and low). Another advantage, especially if using it to do more than just boil water, is you can put a much larger load of alcohol in it since there is only one row of holes near the top. The lower row of holes in the original super cat design limits fuel capacity.

It's been a while since I did these experiments. If someone repeats and gets the same (or different) results, I would love to see the data posted.

[blue indian]

Interesting ideas Odd Man. Where did you find the supplies to make the pot stand?

I'm thinking about making/purchasing a stove similar to Zelphs starlyte. More of a middle jet burning style.

[Odd Man Out]

Interesting ideas Odd Man. Where did you find the supplies to make the pot stand?
I'm thinking about making/purchasing a stove similar to Zelphs starlyte. More of a middle jet burning style.

OK so it's spring break and I have the day off and we aren't suppose to get our next snow storm until tomorrow, so did some comparison testing of my Starlyte and Simmer Cat under "MI spring break" conditions (AKA winter).

For both tests I used an anodized Al pot from REI (4.5 cup capacity, 6" diameter, 2.5" tall). Pot stands are made from galvanized steel hardware cloth (purchased a few feet from hardware store). Cut strips to form rings 2" tall for the Starlyte and 1.5" tall for the Simmer Cat. Windscreen is a 2.5" tall cylinder made of Al flashing. Its diameter is 1/2" larger than the pot giving about 1/4" clearance all around. I punched a bunch of holes around the bottom for air vents. There is also one large 1"x1" air vent at the bottom so I can peek inside. I have not optimize air flow. My system could be air deficient - I need to work on that. The whole thing sets on an Al base/heat reflector cut from a disposable Al pie pan. Air temperature = 26 F with a slight breeze, not too windy. Pot was filled with 2 cups of water at 43 deg F. Stove was filled with 1 oz of methanol (yellow HEET) and set outside for 15 minutes to get good and cold. I lit the stove with a match, put the pot on immediately, started a stop watch, and measured the water temperature every minute (digital thermometer). I noted the time to boil and time to flame out. I graphed the data and did a linear regression of the data where the temperature increase was linear (after starting but before boiling). The slope (deg F/min) was used to calculate the stove power in watts (note this only measure the rate a energy delivered to the water and ignores energy needed to heat the pot or lost to the air).

Test #1 = Starlyte (new version without integrated pot stand). Heated at a rate of 15.8 deg F/min or 167 Watts. It took 10:45 minutes to boil 2 cups of 43 deg water. The 1 oz of fuel continued to burn for another 4 minutes at full speed. It then seemed to slow down (steam no longer came out of the pot, but temp held at 212 - I could hear the flame flickering). It did that for another 1:15 minutes.

Test #2 = Simmercat (as described previously). Initially, it burns very slowly, but putting a pot of cold water on the cold stove on a cold day did not extinguish it. After about 2 minutes, it bloomed (you could hear it kick in). It then heated at a rate of 26.1 deg F/min or 275 Watts. It took 8:15 minutes to boil 2 cups of 43 deg water. The oz of fuel continued to burn for another 1:15 seconds.

On the graph, you will see that the lag time it takes for the simmer cat to bloom (see the sudden change of slope at 2 min). The Starlyte was ahead of the Simmer Cat initially because it burns at full power at the start. But the Siimmer Cat catches up as it is somewhat more powerful. It is hard to calculate stove efficiency (heat delivered per oz of fuel burned) from these data. Based on the long burn time after boil for the Starlyte, it clearly was more efficient, which is not surprising since lower power stoves usually are. Based on the burn time and the heating rates, I estimate that if had put 4 cups of water in the pot and using the same amount (1 oz) of fuel, the Simmer Cat would have been able to heat 4 cups up to 143 deg F and the Starlyte up to 165 deg F.

20154

[Dogwood]

I use the Snow Peak Ti Mini Solo(28 oz/828 ml) with nesting lid(about 3.6 oz total) with both a Fancy Feast and one of Zelph's designed alchy stoves. The pot has foldable handles. Lid has a small triangular handle. It's bomber for Solo hiking. Hats fast with either one of those set-ups but Zelph's ADJUSTABLE FLAME(heat) stoves works better.

[QiWiz]

I was afraid that the foster can wouldn't work that well with the cat stove since it isn't very wide. Kinda bummed about that. I'm searching for a evernew 600ml right now.

You might be very happy with the Evernew 251 or 267

[MuddyWaters]

If you want to have fun, buy a couple quarts of denatured alcohol, make several stoves, and repeat the same learning curve oodles of other folks did.

If you want to save money overall and make it easy, just talk to Zelph and get what he recommends for his flat bottom foster pot.

He is putting together some new kind of kit with titanium windscreen, stove, pot, everything I think.

[blue indian]

OK so it's spring break and I have the day off and we aren't suppose to get our next snow storm until tomorrow, so did some comparison testing of my Starlyte and Simmer Cat under "MI spring break" conditions (AKA winter).

For both tests I used an anodized Al pot from REI (4.5 cup capacity, 6" diameter, 2.5" tall). Pot stands are made from galvanized steel hardware cloth (purchased a few feet from hardware store). Cut strips to form rings 2" tall for the Starlyte and 1.5" tall for the Simmer Cat. Windscreen is a 2.5" tall cylinder made of Al flashing. Its diameter is 1/2" larger than the pot giving about 1/4" clearance all around. I punched a bunch of holes around the bottom for air vents. There is also one large 1"x1" air vent at the bottom so I can peek inside. I have not optimize air flow. My system could be air deficient - I need to work on that. The whole thing sets on an Al base/heat reflector cut from a disposable Al pie pan. Air temperature = 26 F with a slight breeze, not too windy. Pot was filled with 2 cups of water at 43 deg F. Stove was filled with 1 oz of methanol (yellow HEET) and set outside for 15 minutes to get good and cold. I lit the stove with a match, put the pot on immediately, started a stop watch, and measured the water temperature every minute (digital thermometer). I noted the time to boil and time to flame out. I graphed the data and did a linear regression of the data where the temperature increase was linear (after starting but before boiling). The slope (deg F/min) was used to calculate the stove power in watts (note this only measure the rate a energy delivered to the water and ignores energy needed to heat the pot or lost to the air).

Test #1 = Starlyte (new version without integrated pot stand). Heated at a rate of 15.8 deg F/min or 167 Watts. It took 10:45 minutes to boil 2 cups of 43 deg water. The 1 oz of fuel continued to burn for another 4 minutes at full speed. It then seemed to slow down (steam no longer came out of the pot, but temp held at 212 - I could hear the flame flickering). It did that for another 1:15 minutes.

Test #2 = Simmercat (as described previously). Initially, it burns very slowly, but putting a pot of cold water on the cold stove on a cold day did not extinguish it. After about 2 minutes, it bloomed (you could hear it kick in). It then heated at a rate of 26.1 deg F/min or 275 Watts. It took 8:15 minutes to boil 2 cups of 43 deg water. The oz of fuel continued to burn for another 1:15 seconds.

On the graph, you will see that the lag time it takes for the simmer cat to bloom (see the sudden change of slope at 2 min). The Starlyte was ahead of the Simmer Cat initially because it burns at full power at the start. But the Siimmer Cat catches up as it is somewhat more powerful. It is hard to calculate stove efficiency (heat delivered per oz of fuel burned) from these data. Based on the long burn time after boil for the Starlyte, it clearly was more efficient, which is not surprising since lower power stoves usually are. Based on the burn time and the heating rates, I estimate that if had put 4 cups of water in the pot and using the same amount (1 oz) of fuel, the Simmer Cat would have been able to heat 4 cups up to 143 deg F and the Starlyte up to 165 deg F.

20154


Love the regression analysis. Great stuff. Thanks for the quality info! Im sure lots of other people will find this interesting and helpful. How many times did you run the tests? It appears just the one time... I wonder what kind of performance changes you would see with a fosters type pot (or something with a similar profile) with the starlyte, if any?

[blue indian]

You might be very happy with the Evernew 251 or 267

I posted a thread looking for the 251 actually. no responses yet..

[blue indian]

If you want to have fun, buy a couple quarts of denatured alcohol, make several stoves, and repeat the same learning curve oodles of other folks did.

If you want to save money overall and make it easy, just talk to Zelph and get what he recommends for his flat bottom foster pot.

He is putting together some new kind of kit with titanium windscreen, stove, pot, everything I think.


Good to know. Maybe I will hold off and see what he comes up with! Where did you hear/read this?

[swankfly]

I use the Snow Peak Ti Mini Solo(28 oz/828 ml) with nesting lid(about 3.6 oz total) with both a Fancy Feast and one of Zelph's designed alchy stoves. The pot has foldable handles. Lid has a small triangular handle. It's bomber for Solo hiking. Hats fast with either one of those set-ups but Zelph's ADJUSTABLE FLAME(heat) stoves works better.

This is my go to pot also, followed by the IMUSA.

[CenAZwalker]

Good to know. Maybe I will hold off and see what he comes up with! Where did you hear/read this?

Here it is. Quite the kit, a lot of options.

[CenAZwalker]

Sorry, I forgot the link.

http://www.woodgaz-stove.com/titan-3-titanium-cook-kit.php

[Dogwood]

Zelph's Simmer cat design works well with the Snow Peak Ti Mini Soloist.

[Odd Man Out]

Love the regression analysis. Great stuff. Thanks for the quality info! Im sure lots of other people will find this interesting and helpful. How many times did you run the tests? It appears just the one time... I wonder what kind of performance changes you would see with a fosters type pot (or something with a similar profile) with the starlyte, if any?

These were the results from just one test, but I have done similar tests previously. When testing cooking systems, I came to appreciate that there was a lot more to it than just the stove. The pot stand, pot, wind screen, and conditions all work together so any results only apply to a given system. As discussed here and elsewhere, the optimal stove for one pot may not be optimal for another. I have never used a Foster's pot since that doesn't really match my style of cooking (I believe the Foster's pot is used mainly by people who only use it to boil water). But it would be nice someday to do a systematic analysis of each variable (pot, stove, windscreen, etc...). As mentioned above, I haven't studied air flow through the wind screen enough yet. I will probably take on that variable next.

I was looking at some of my old tests. My first tests with the simmer cat gave somewhat different results, but the tests were done in different conditions. These were with 4 cups of water (instead of two), indoors (room temp/no wind), different pot stand, and without a wind screen. Plus the data are in deg C instead of def F. If I convert the units and assume 2 cups of water would be heated exactly twice as fast as 4 cups, then my original tests with the simmer cat heated the water at 33 deg/min (vs 26 deg /min from yesterday's test). I suspect my windscreen is cutting the power of the stove by cutting down airflow. But that isn't necessary a bad thing as it probably makes the stove more efficient. Also, in those tests, the simmer cat without a pot stand (pot rests directly on the stove) heated at a rate of 19.44 deg F/min (also adjusted for two cups). Under these conditions, my penny stove heated at 21.6 def F/min. I also observed that the simmer cat without the pot stand became more powerful when the water temp got above 130 deg F. I don't know if others have observed this. BTW, here are the instructions I used for the stoves I am making.

Super/Simmer Cat
http://jwbasecamp.com/Articles/SuperCat/index.html

Penny
http://www.jureystudio.com/pennystove/stoveinstruct.html

[blue indian]

These were the results from just one test, but I have done similar tests previously. When testing cooking systems, I came to appreciate that there was a lot more to it than just the stove. The pot stand, pot, wind screen, and conditions all work together so any results only apply to a given system. As discussed here and elsewhere, the optimal stove for one pot may not be optimal for another. I have never used a Foster's pot since that doesn't really match my style of cooking (I believe the Foster's pot is used mainly by people who only use it to boil water). But it would be nice someday to do a systematic analysis of each variable (pot, stove, windscreen, etc...). As mentioned above, I haven't studied air flow through the wind screen enough yet. I will probably take on that variable next.

I was looking at some of my old tests. My first tests with the simmer cat gave somewhat different results, but the tests were done in different conditions. These were with 4 cups of water (instead of two), indoors (room temp/no wind), different pot stand, and without a wind screen. Plus the data are in deg C instead of def F. If I convert the units and assume 2 cups of water would be heated exactly twice as fast as 4 cups, then my original tests with the simmer cat heated the water at 33 deg/min (vs 26 deg /min from yesterday's test). I suspect my windscreen is cutting the power of the stove by cutting down airflow. But that isn't necessary a bad thing as it probably makes the stove more efficient. Also, in those tests, the simmer cat without a pot stand (pot rests directly on the stove) heated at a rate of 19.44 deg F/min (also adjusted for two cups). Under these conditions, my penny stove heated at 21.6 def F/min. I also observed that the simmer cat without the pot stand became more powerful when the water temp got above 130 deg F. I don't know if others have observed this. BTW, here are the instructions I used for the stoves I am making.

Super/Simmer Cat
http://jwbasecamp.com/Articles/SuperCat/index.html

Penny
http://www.jureystudio.com/pennystove/stoveinstruct.html



I really wish I had come across some of this when I took my systematic analysis class in college. This would have been awesome for my class project. Of course I would have done the tests myself...hah.

[MuddyWaters]

Another good all-in-one setup is at suluk46.
He has a zelph flatbottom pot, Ti windscreen, tealight cup, and Ti support sold together 1.59 oz

[Hairbear]

I like the pot that comes with the g s i minimalist.

[q-tip]

I am using the Oil Camp Pot-a little heavy at 7.6 oz. but it saves 40% fuel. My Titanium pot was 6 oz.

[blue indian]

Thanks for all the suggestions folks! MuddyWaters, Im gonna look at that system. Looks like something i would like.

I put together something without paying a dime and having been getting some boil times with 2 cups of water and about 3/4 oz of heet between 5:20 - 6:30 minutes with varying wind and temperature conditions (btw 36 degrees and 50 degrees).

I used the supercat, a 5in x 2 1/2in aluminum pot, and a homemade tinfoil lid and windscreen. Pretty sweet for stuff I had laying around the house...

[MuddyWaters]

Thanks for all the suggestions folks! MuddyWaters, Im gonna look at that system. Looks like something i would like.

I put together something without paying a dime and having been getting some boil times with 2 cups of water and about 3/4 oz of heet between 5:20 - 6:30 minutes with varying wind and temperature conditions (btw 36 degrees and 50 degrees).

I used the supercat, a 5in x 2 1/2in aluminum pot, and a homemade tinfoil lid and windscreen. Pretty sweet for stuff I had laying around the house...

THats all it takes.
And you know how to improvise.
On trail, you can use a peice of tin foil and make a small open cup in a pinch,
Or pickup a soda can from a garbage can
Or even buy a cat food can

You can buy setups, but there isnt any real need to. Its too easy to just make do. More satisfying too.