Kind of disappointed with pack wieght [Archive]

todd52

03-08-2013, 19:32

I'm a small-medium sized guy in his early 50's. Probably not in that good of shape (too much sitting and not enough excersize). So today, I went out and got rid of the cheap pack and got a good one (name brand. heavy duty, tent compartment, lots of hooks to attach things, detachable compartments, etc). It even came with a bear bag and tent cover. I even got a smaller tent and a lot of other things - besides what I already have. I'll skip the gear list for now because it is far from finished and I'm sure I will add a few things or remove them in time.

Anyway, so I put the pack on and it feels uncomfortably heavy (especially in my lungs). I adjusted a few things and it still feels heavy. I put it on the scale and it weighed 25 pounds. I removed a few of the heavier things and put it back on the scale again and this time it weighed 24 pounds so I only shaved off a pound. The other pack was small and lighter but had no place for the things I need to carry (tent, mat, etc).

Is 24-25 pounds considered light, medium or heavy?. Or am I just really out of shape or too small for this pack?. I even looked at myself in the mirror and was thinking "now if I was 6'-3" and 230 pound this pack would look just right on me!". And yet it's just a normal pack (not overly large or anything). Also, the 24-25 pounds is BEFORE I add water, fuel and food!.

todd52

03-08-2013, 19:33

Grrr...I meant "pack cover" (not "tent cover").

bfayer

03-08-2013, 19:37

25 pounds is not heavy. You should carry most of the weight on your hips. It sounds like you may have the weight on your shoulders.

Did you have someone properly fit the pack?

SnailRacer

03-08-2013, 19:56

25 pounds is not heavy. You should carry most of the weight on your hips. It sounds like you may have the weight on your shoulders.

Did you have someone properly fit the pack?
Does the pack have an adjustable suspension system? Maybe you just need to reset the hinge/pivot point

"The Best Things in Life, Aren't Things!!"

Rocket Jones

03-08-2013, 20:00

It's all about the adjustments. Google and youtube will help you figure out what all those little straps and doodads are for. Packing correctly helps too. Is the pack the right size for you (i.e. small, medium or large for your torso length)? I traded in my medium for a large of the same pack and immediately felt the difference.

That said, sometimes a pack just doesn't fit comfortably for a person. One man's dream pack is another's agony.

todd52

03-08-2013, 20:07

Franco

03-08-2013, 20:14

With a correctly sized and set up pack , 25 lbs should not be a burden even if slightly unfit.I would suggest going into an outfitter and try several packs (with weight inside...) to find a better fitting pack.
You could possibly get used to the one you have but it does not sound to me like a good start.
BTW, as with most outdoor gear you need to know some basic technique to get the most out of your pack, for example weight distribution (what goes where)
Again an outfitter can help you with that.

Praha4

03-08-2013, 20:27

U asked for suggestions I guess, to save weight. So here goes:

Backpack
**Clothing (jacket, shirts, sweaters, socks, underwear, pants, etc)
What climate are you hiking in? why jacket AND sweaters. There are U/L down jackets and you don't need sweaters, those are heavy and bulky. You may not even need long pants, just a pair of synethetic hiking/running shorts.
Mosquito head netting
Ziploc bag with 3 plastic garbage bags in it.
Why 3 garbage bags? Only take one.
2 small space blankets
Two hand warmers
3 rolls camping toilet paper
why 3 rolls TP? only need a small amount, resupply often as needed.
50' of poly cord
why 50 ft poly cord AND 50 ft nylon cord? too much weight
Hiking first aid kit
here's an area you can save weight. A few bandaids, some neosporin, a couple safety pins, some Ibuprofen, alchohol pads, etc. stored in a ziploc baggie. Most of the over he counter first aid kits have too much stuff.
2-person tent
Bear bag
Pack cover
Wind-up flashlight
Too heavy, get a U/L headlamp
Multi-purpose tool
What is this for, when you also have a knife?
50 feet of nylon cord
Brass swivels
Sinkers
2 packages of bobbers
Fishong line
8 AA batteries
Snake bit kit
... only carry if you are in snake country
Small sewing kit
Fuel sticks
5 reg. sized lighters
why 5 lighters? only need one
Water purification tablets
Pocket saw
why a saw? are you doing trail maintenance?
Metal whistle
get a plastic whistle
2 magnesium fire starters
Compass
Shaving razors
Small, folding shover
.... ditch the shovel dont' need it
2 bear bells
Rain poncho
Camping mirror
ditch the mirror, dont need it
Plastic spork
Grease pot
Knife
Baby powder
Camp soap
Sponge
Headlamp
Small funnel
Filter straw
Penny stove
Small sleeping bag
Mat
2 alluminum water bottles
... alluminum bottles more extra weight, use a couple empty gatorade bottles
Various meds

you can shave a lot more weight if you want to. By the end of the first day in the mountains, you will ask yourself why did I carry all this extra junk?

have fun hiking!

todd52

03-08-2013, 20:28

Just went here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M78OpJ8vT0s

From what this guy is saying, I am packing completely wrong. Also, he has a vid on how to use all the straps to adjust load (my pack has TONS of them). Thanks for the good advice. I definately have plenty to do now.

Maui Rhino

03-08-2013, 20:30

If it were me, I'd replace the three rolls of TP with baby wipes--useful for much more than wiping your butt. Get rid the 2 magnesium fire starters--you already are carrying three more bic lighters than you need, and fire starter sticks. Replace the aluminuim water bottles with recycled 20oz or 1qt plastic soda bottles. Throw the shaving razors in the bounce box. Get rid of the shovel--you can use a tent stake to dig a cathole, or carry one of those plastic trowels. Forget about the snake bite kit, pocket saw, 1 bear bell, wind up flashlite, and one of the space blankets. You probably won't need the fishing gear too, unless you plan to take some Neros and fish. Although, I would probably stick 20 feet or so of fishing line in my sewing kit for repairs. All this may save you another pound or two. I would add a windscreen for your penny stove.

miloandotis

03-08-2013, 20:33

Todd52 my concern for you is your lack of experience and exercise, as you stated. I don't think it is realistic to think you will be hiking "up to several weeks" without getting yourself in some sense of shape beforehand. I think this is as great of concern as your equipment and pack weight so you do not injure yourself early on and have to quit. Just my opinion of course and I don't know when/where you plan to start. I don't mean to say quit working on your equipment and pack but please think and work just as much at getting your body ready for what you plan on doing so you don't have an injury early on and have to quit. {Sorry, it's the mom/nurse in me:-)}

todd52

03-08-2013, 21:11

leaftye

03-08-2013, 21:22

HYOH, but doing what experienced hikers do will allow you to gain the fruits of their lessons without spending all the time, money and pain they had.

Drybones

03-08-2013, 21:23

Well, I completely re-packed, adjusted all kind of different straps so that most of the wieght is riding on my waist. Then, I adjusted the chest strap and cinched the shoulder straps forward, made other adjustments and now it feels like 25 pounds instead of a load of concrete :)

Go out and do some week end hikes, that will show you what you need/dont need and how to pack. You'll get a lot of opinions here but there's no substitute for experience.

hikerboy57

03-08-2013, 21:36

HYOH, but doing what experienced hikers do will allow you to gain the fruits of their lessons without spending all the time, money and pain they had.
kinda like listening to your parents advice. sometimes the best way to learn is to make mistakes

Tuxedo

03-08-2013, 21:36

Finally, my gear list!. Please critique :) . What to carry. What not to carry. One thing I need to say...I will not be using very many (if any) mail drops and will be hiking for up to several weeks.

Backpack
Clothing (jacket, shirts, sweaters, socks, underwear, pants, etc)
Mosquito head netting
Ziploc bag with 3 plastic garbage bags in it
2 small space blankets you already have a bag
Two hand warmers no need but luxury item limit
3 rolls camping toilet paper only have as much as you'll use between now and next stop
50' of poly cord you only need enough to hang food bag 10 feet up shorten to 20feet or less
Hiking first aid kit
2-person tent plenty of 1person tents to get under 2.5lb or less
Bear bag
Pack cover
Wind-up flashlight headlamp only
Multi-purpose tool knife is all you need
50 feet of nylon cord listed twice no need for 100'
Brass swivels
Sinkers
2 packages of bobbers
Fishong line I did see 1 person fish but really you dont have time on a thru... luxury item
8 AA batteries not sure what the power is for but carry only whats needed and replace along
Snake bit kit no need luxury item
Small sewing kit replace with some duct tape
Fuel sticks gas or fuel supply is all you need
5 reg. sized lighters only need 1 at a time mail drop or pickup along the trail
Water purification tablets
Pocket saw no need you have the knife
Metal whistle no need luxury item
2 magnesium fire starters lighters all you need
Compass no need luxury the AT is marked and a compass does nothing to help
Shaving razors luxury item not needed just grow a beard it has alot of trail benefits
Small, folding shover no need to shovel
2 bear bells luxury item not needed
Rain poncho
Camping mirrorPlastic spork
Grease pot
Knife
Baby powder
Camp soap
Sponge no f'n way dont do it mate
Headlamp
Small funnel
Filter straw
Penny stove
Small sleeping bag
Mat
2 alluminum water bottles
Various meds

WEIGHT=25 POUNDS AND I STILL HAVE NOT ADDED...

Fill 2 bottles of water
Alcohol
Food

I have a rule of thumb simply anything in the "this would be nice to have category" get rid of it now. I little experience will go a long way on the list here but anything you dont use everyday get rid of.

leaftye

03-08-2013, 21:57

kinda like listening to your parents advice. sometimes the best way to learn is to make mistakes

Is learning from your own mistakes the best way? That depends on the person.

"Only a fool learns from his own mistakes. The wise man learns from the mistakes of others"

"Fools pretend that one learns only at his own expense; I have always striven to learn at the expense of others."

"Fools pretend that you can only gain experience at your own expense, but I have always managed to learn at the expense of others."

"Fools say that you can only gain experience at your own expense, but I have always contrived to gain my experience at the expense of others."

hikerboy57

03-08-2013, 22:18

Is learning from your own mistakes the best way? That depends on the person.
not necessarily the best way.but one is also a fool who believes everything he is told

leaftye

03-08-2013, 22:29

not necessarily the best way.but one is also a fool who believes everything he is told

Yes, following ALL advise instead of attempting to decipher between good and bad information would be foolish.

scope

03-08-2013, 22:32

Those windup flashlights are useless for anything except inside your tent, and its too heavy and bulky to carry along. You'll need something at night - get good cheap headlamp. The Everyready brand is good and cheap if a little heavy. Lot better than that windup thing.

Unless, its the windup thing that is a radio and cell phone charger also. Then, its a definite maybe. But it is still a terrible flashlight, still need the headlamp.

Rocket Jones

03-08-2013, 22:57

Without knowing where and when you're hiking, or for how long/far you're planning to go, this is just general advice. And worth every bit you pay for it. :)

Finally, my gear list!. Please critique :) . What to carry. What not to carry. One thing I need to say...I will not be using very many (if any) mail drops and will be hiking for up to several weeks.

Backpack
Clothing (jacket, shirts, sweaters, socks, underwear, pants, etc) break this out into items
Mosquito head netting
Ziploc bag with 3 plastic garbage bags in it what size bags? I carry 2 shopping bag size
2 small space blankets no need
Two hand warmers luxury item
3 rolls camping toilet paper 1/2 roll is enough, it's not just weight but bulk. supplement with travel size of wet wipes
50' of poly cord for bear bag, take 40'
Hiking first aid kit search WB for 'first aid kit', you're probably carrying way too much/wrong stuff in commercial kit
2-person tent
Bear bag
Pack cover
Wind-up flashlight you have a headlamp, don't need this
Multi-purpose tool a small one is ok, the main thing you might use is the scissors, this instead of the knife
50 feet of nylon cord don't need
Brass swivels
Sinkers
2 packages of bobbers two?
Fishong line depends on where you're hiking. the AT is usually along ridgetops, not a lot of places to fish
8 AA batteries put a fresh set in your camera and headlamp before leaving
Snake bit kit don't need
Small sewing kit
Fuel sticks a few cotton balls smeared with vaseline works better, or decide not to have a fire
5 reg. sized lighters one, or two at most
Water purification tablets
Pocket saw don't need, wood big enough to burn can be stomped or broken by hand
Metal whistle does your pack sternum strap have a whistle on it? I prefer plastic.
2 magnesium fire starters don't need
Compass do you know how to use it? If not, it's useless weight
Shaving razors
Small, folding shover use a tent stake
2 bear bells one is enough, in the East I don't bother
Rain poncho
Camping mirror
Plastic spork I hate sporks, a long-handled spoon is more useful
Grease pot
Knife small pocketknife instead of multi-tool, hopefully not Rambo-sized
Baby powder
Camp soap
Sponge use a bandana
Headlamp
Small funnel don't need
Filter straw
Penny stove
Small sleeping bag small? warm enough?
Mat
2 alluminum water bottles I carry two empty gatoraid bottles - much lighter. If I'm with my buddy, I replace one bottle with a wide-mouth nalgene that fits his water filter.
Various meds

WEIGHT=25 POUNDS AND I STILL HAVE NOT ADDED...

Fill 2 bottles of water
Alcohol
Food

Missing:
wind screen for stove - this is a necessity
bandana - someone called it the Swiss Army Knife of textiles
map(s)
camera
cell phone - leave this off most of the time
notebook and pen - journal, notes, addresses of people you meet, campsites you find, etc.
sunscreen, bug juice - if needed for time and place

Sarcasm the elf

03-09-2013, 00:22

I have a rule of thumb simply anything in the "this would be nice to have category" get rid of it now. I little experience will go a long way on the list here but anything you dont use everyday get rid of.

I agree with almost all of your critique, however a compass is NOT a luxury item. The trail is well marked, but the moment you accidently lose the trail you're in the woods and unless you have real life experience navigating in the woods, being lost without a compass is a dangerous problem.

Advising a beginning hiker to not carry a compass in order to save weight is almost as bad as advising them not to carry a shelter to save weight.

(again, most everything else you posted was good advice.)

aficion

03-09-2013, 00:35

I agree with almost all of your critique, however a compass is NOT a luxury item. The trail is well marked, but the moment you accidently lose the trail you're in the woods and unless you have real life experience navigating in the woods, being lost without a compass is a dangerous problem.

Advising a beginning hiker to not carry a compass in order to save weight is almost as bad as advising them not to carry a shelter to save weight.

(again, most everything else you posted was good advice.)

A beginner, by definition, would have no use for a compass, since they would not know how to use it. Might as well give them a sextant.

MuddyWaters

03-09-2013, 00:53

A compass is most useful if :

1) you know about where you are
2) you have a map
3) you know where you want to go to

A compass, can keep you from getting "lost".

If you are "lost" , its not automatically going to help a lot. Kind of depends on "how lost" you are.

For instance, if during my sleep I was drugged, and taken to the middle of the woods somewhere, and I woke up there with a compass. It wouldnt do me a damn bit of good, because I have no frame of reference for its use.

If you get lost from the AT, you better know what direction the trail is from where you are, or that compass wont do much good either. With a trail that snakes around, good luck.

There are plenty of places where "Northbound" is actually heading south.

The plan for staying "not lost" on the AT, is to stay on the trail.
Most hikers dont have maps either, just the guidebook.

Not saying its a bad idea to carry a compass, its not.
It is a bad idea,..... to not be aware of where you are at all times.

Sarcasm the elf

03-09-2013, 01:22

A beginner, by definition, would have no use for a compass, since they would not know how to use it. Might as well give them a sextant.

Agreed, however that just supports the need for basic outdoor skills before embarking on a long hike, that is not a valid argument against carrying a compass.

My first orienteering course took all of a half an hour, I have used that knowledge on nearly every long hike I've ever been on...

Sarcasm the elf

03-09-2013, 01:37

A compass is most useful if :

1) you know about where you are
2) you have a map
3) you know where you want to go to

Agreed, and I do think that new hikers would be wise to carry maps until they get some good experience on the trail.

A compass, can keep you from getting "lost".

If you are "lost" , its not automatically going to help a lot. Kind of depends on "how lost" you are. - I often use a compass to get my bearing when I am slightly misplaced, both with and without a map. It's not always perfect, but like you said, depends on how lost you are, it's often very useful.

For instance, if during my sleep I was drugged, and taken to the middle of the woods somewhere, and I woke up there with a compass. It wouldnt do me a damn bit of good, because I have no frame of reference for its use - Good point and bonus points for creativity ( I got a good laugh from the description), but be careful, what you have suggested may wind up being a hit reality TV show.. ;)

If you get lost from the AT, you better know what direction the trail is from where you are, or that compass wont do much good either. With a trail that snakes around, good luck. - Again, true, but if you have an idea of where you are, a compass is a great resource to help you figure out where you made a wrong turn.

There are plenty of places where "Northbound" is actually heading south.

The plan for staying "not lost" on the AT, is to stay on the trail. - Yup, great advice on paper, but not always realistic.
Most hikers dont have maps either, just the guidebook. - most of my friends smoke. Does that make it good advice?

Not saying its a bad idea to carry a compass, its not.
It is a bad idea,..... to not be aware of where you are at all times. - I agree with your conclusion, but a compass is a valuable backup.

Ten or more extra characters

Mountain Mike

03-09-2013, 04:13

Even experienced hikers here have admitted to taking off in the wrong direction in the am or at trail crossings. Even a cheap zipper compass can prevent this.

Bronk

03-09-2013, 06:13

I'd get rid of everything in RED...

Finally, my gear list!. Please critique :) . What to carry. What not to carry. One thing I need to say...I will not be using very many (if any) mail drops and will be hiking for up to several weeks.

Backpack
Clothing (jacket, shirts, sweaters, socks, underwear, pants, etc) You are carrying too many clothes...too many 's' on the ends of those words...
Mosquito head netting
Ziploc bag with 3 plastic garbage bags in it You only need one garbage bag...
2 small space blankets
Two hand warmers
3 rolls camping toilet paper
50' of poly cord
Hiking first aid kit - Carry a couple of bandaids and a couple of alcohol pads
2-person tent
Bear bag
Pack cover
Wind-up flashlight - get a headlamp
Multi-purpose tool - a knife is all you need
50 feet of nylon cord - You've already got 50 ft of rope
Brass swivels -
Sinkers
2 packages of bobbers
Fishong line - If you are thruhiking it is foolish to walk 2000 miles carrying something you may only use a handful of times.
8 AA batteries - You only need one spare set...they sell batteries in every trail town.
Snake bit kit - Try not to step on a snake.
Small sewing kit - One needle and one spool of heavy thread is all you need to make it into town
Fuel sticks
5 reg. sized lighters - Make sure these are Bic lighters...5 is probably overkill but I have several tucked away because I don't ever want to be without one
Water purification tablets
Pocket saw
Metal whistle
2 magnesium fire starters
Compass - You will probably never use this on the AT, the trail is well marked.
Shaving razors
Small, folding shover
2 bear bells
Rain poncho
Camping mirror
Plastic spork
Grease pot
Knife
Baby powder
Camp soap
Sponge
Headlamp
Small funnel
Filter straw
Penny stove
Small sleeping bag
Mat
2 alluminum water bottles - Just use gatorade bottles
Various meds

WEIGHT=25 POUNDS AND I STILL HAVE NOT ADDED...

Fill 2 bottles of water
Alcohol
Food

Tuxedo

03-09-2013, 06:22

in general the AT goes north and south and is well marked but most who have the experience dont need it and is the first item to go. I would also agree the majority dont use a map and go by a guide book showing miles to destination and distinguished intervals when following white blazes. if you find yourself lost between intervals the false sense of north and south will be a mess in finding the trail with a compass and no map. The AT goes 358 directions other then straight north and straight south. Yes Ive lost the trail but to count on due north minus 7ish degrees instead of walk back to the last intersection with a white blaze is foolish at best from the point of view you'd be blind if the AT is headed East at that section.

about 12yrs ago guide books and near(loosely mind you) pin pointed the distance of the shelter to the next gap, water source or stiles. Only gotten better and more precise to include elevation of everything current, is a compass needed on the AT? Not with a current page of todays guide books.

Carry a compass, if you use it keep it... if you just carry it drop it in a hiker box or mail it home.

Nutbrown

03-09-2013, 09:23

Here's another vote for a compass. The AT is well marked, but quite a few side trails to the road are not. A compass would have saved my 4 hours of back and forth looking for the trailhead.

aficion

03-09-2013, 09:40

[QUOTE=Sarcasm the elf;1435022]Agreed, however that just supports the need for basic outdoor skills before embarking on a long hike

Good point, and good advice.

bfayer

03-09-2013, 09:40

I have also used a compass in towns, sometimes after walking around for awhile you forget which way is which.

A small compass weighs so little its not worth not taking.

No Directions

03-09-2013, 09:48

Even experienced hikers here have admitted to taking off in the wrong direction in the am or at trail crossings. Even a cheap zipper compass can prevent this.

So I shouldn't be embarrassed about losing the trail in the Damascus city limits? That's where my trail name came from.

bear bag hanger

03-09-2013, 09:50

As others have already mentioned, you appear have way too much stuff. It looks like you could easily drop another five or six pounds without impacting your comfort or safety. But keep the compass. They become useful when you're not quite sure you're going in the right direction and the sky is full of clouds, hiding the sun. True, sometimes the north bound trail goes south, but for the most part, it goes north. One place I see a few hikers getting lost is when they arrive somewhere in the dark dead tired and then have to figure out which way to go in the morning light.

aficion

03-09-2013, 09:52

So I shouldn't be embarrassed about losing the trail in the Damascus city limits? That's where my trail name came from.

Life comes with no directions. That's where Whiteblaze comes in. You can get any kind of directions you are looking for here. N,S,E,orW.:cool:

q-tip

03-09-2013, 13:23

It really heps if you weigh everything. I knocked 10 lbs. out of my backpack, literally one ounce at a time. My UL kit is 12.5, my standard kit is 15 lbs, and my cold weather kit is 16.5. Just a thought.....

Rocket Jones

03-09-2013, 14:14

They say you pack for your fears, and I think that's true. I've dropped a few pounds from my gear by getting a lighter pad, down quilt, etc, but I've cut almost as much by eliminating items that I used to carry 'just in case', including paring way back on my emergency/repair/first aid kits.

todd52

03-10-2013, 02:09

Finding yourself during a quarter-moon in between shelters in a remote area and a not-so-well-defined trail. Now that is kind of scary and not something I had thought of. Compass: check.

TroutknuT

03-10-2013, 08:46

After a long cold day on the trail finally got to the shelter bule blaze trail. The next morning at the end of the blue blaze at the AT my mind went right or left,a compass reading later still feeling right turn was the way to go even though my compass said I was going south I hiked on. 45 min. later and still not going north or east with the sun now on what felt like the wrong side of the trail my mind running crazy with the idea of back tracking and just as I was about to turn around along came a ridge runner to set my mind at ease, I was going north bound. 45 min. of second guessing my self could have ben saved if I had a map to go with my compass or just payed more attention at the trail crossing. Now when I blue blaze I put my watch on the wrist that represents the correct direction to go the next morning. My dyslexic mind plays tricks on me, so at the end of a long day marking the next days direction with a watch works better than my memory ( hike left,right,up hill,down hill,towards the big tree away from the big tree) the list could go on. No compass or map needed.

todd52

03-11-2013, 17:35

swjohnsey

03-11-2013, 18:15

Thanks for all the useful replies. I'm still going over all the suggestions and feel it can help me shave at least several pounds off the weight which really helps a lot!. So much here, it would be impossible to respond to each and every reply but for starters, I just wanted to ask a few questions that stand out in my mind:

1) What is a "bounce box" (I've also heard them called a "drop box")?. Are these metal bins or boxes along the trail where people toss in things they decide they no longer need or are too heavy too carry and then other hikers might come by, see something they could use and then help themselves?. Bounce box is a box you mail to yourself farther up the trail that contains items you don't need every day like toenail clippers, extra batteries and such. Hiker box is a box usually at hostels, motels and such where hikers drop stuff they don't want for other hikers such as food and orange trowels. Mail drop is usually something sent from home by someone supporting you like wife, etc. that has stuff like food.

2) The foldable shovel I have is a very small metal one that fits in a case worn on the belt about the size of a pocket knife case. I was thinking it would be good for digging catholes. My tent pegs are way too skinny (and the wrong shape) to actually dig any kind of a hole with and same thing with a stick. How do you actually dig a hole with a stick?. It doesn't take much of a hole. Just kick a depression with you heel and cover it up when you are done.

3) Can you just stop anywhere on the trail and set up tent, build a campfire (or fire up your stove), cook, clean yourself up, etc or are there specific desigated areas for this?.[/QUOTE] Pretty much with a few exception like national parks, Shanendoa (sic) Valley and Whites.

swjohnsey

03-11-2013, 18:16

Don't forget you will have another ten pounds or more of food and water.

prain4u

03-11-2013, 19:08

I am a firm believer in carrying a compass--even on a well marked trail. Sometimes, it is helpful to use one just to help you get a GENERAL sense of direction when you can't see the sun, moon, stars etc.

HOWEVER, a compass is much more useful in the hands of someone who knows how to use one--and even more useful if that person has an accurate topographic map of the area.

I have discovered that MOST (but not all) people who say "leave the compass home" fall into three general categories (with a great deal of overlap between these groups):

1) Folks who are excessively concerned about eliminating every last bit of pack weight. ("Gram Weenies")

2) Folks who have never been well-trained in using a map and compass.

3) Folks who have not done much hiking other than on the AT (or on other well-marked trails)

Anyone can potentially get off of a trail and get disoriented. Thus, a compass can be useful. (Heck. anyone can potentially get out of their tent in the morning and accidentally start hiking SOBO when they intend to go NOBO).