View Full Version : What's the SKINny?
After much research, lurking on WhiteBlaze, and trying out my son's Hennessy Hammock, I was all ready back in April to buy my dream combo - a HH Explorer Ultralight Asym, Jacks R Better "Nest" under quilt, along with Jacks R Better Python Skins. Unfortunately, when I tried to place my order for the Python Skins with Jacks R Better, they informed me that they were notified by Tom Hennessy that they could not sell the skins any longer due to a patent infringement. I've been waiting for HH to offer a Python Skin replacement, or for the two parties to work out an agreement where JRB could sell the Python Skins. Does anyone know what is going on? I have a section hike in TN/NC coming up, and can't wait much longer.
I have to say I'm a bit upset that HH won't let JRB sell the Pythons, yet does not offer a comparable product. I'm ready to just borrow my son's hammock, which will lose HH a sale.
Bob Baker
06-20-2005, 22:11
Not sure exactly what the python skins are/were but hennessy does offer their "snake skins". They basically go over the hammock to make it easier to pack/store. If it was up to me though it would be real easy to make a light version out of silnylon. Heres the link http://www.hennessyhammock.com/new-products.htm (just scroll down to the bottom). Also, I use my hennessy without the snake skins and havent found a problem but Rock uses them so they can't be that bad right? Hope this helps
Sorry, I should have explained more clearly what the "Pythons" are. They are a wider version of the HH Snake Skins, made to accomodate the under quilt. That way you can leave the Nest under quilt attached and roll the whole shebang up at once. With JRB not allowed to sell them, and HH not offering them, there is no nice solution for a HH with the under quilt. If I'm wrong or there is another solution, can someone let me know? I'm just operating on what I've read here and on the HH and JRB web sites. Thanks!
I'm in the same boat. If I get into a project that causes me to order fabric, especially sylnylon, I'm gonna make my own, darn it! JRB did tell me that they were hoping to come to some sort of agreement or licensing arrangement or something. Not to begrudge Tom Hennessey any, I just wish 'em all luck.
Bob Baker
06-21-2005, 07:28
Since you are going with the explorer ultralight it may be possible to just use a larger snakeskin (like the one for the safaris and such). Maybe the extra room would be enough. I'd call both Hennessy and JRB and ask what the respective diameters would be.
SGT Rock
06-21-2005, 07:29
After much research, lurking on WhiteBlaze, and trying out my son's Hennessy Hammock, I was all ready back in April to buy my dream combo - a HH Explorer Ultralight Asym, Jacks R Better "Nest" under quilt, along with Jacks R Better Python Skins. Unfortunately, when I tried to place my order for the Python Skins with Jacks R Better, they informed me that they were notified by Tom Hennessy that they could not sell the skins any longer due to a patent infringement. I've been waiting for HH to offer a Python Skin replacement, or for the two parties to work out an agreement where JRB could sell the Python Skins. Does anyone know what is going on? I have a section hike in TN/NC coming up, and can't wait much longer.
I have to say I'm a bit upset that HH won't let JRB sell the Pythons, yet does not offer a comparable product. I'm ready to just borrow my son's hammock, which will lose HH a sale.
I talked to Tom about this at Trail Days, apparently there won't be something called Python Skins or anything from him, but you will be able to order snake skins that are oversized. See, he has a system that has a #1 skin for an ultralight, a #2 for the Explorer, #3 for the Expedition. His plan (and it may be in place) is to offer a #4. If I remember the system correctly, if you go up 2 sizes you should be able to get the same extra space as a Python Skin, so if you need on for an ultralight, the #3 should work.
wentworth
06-21-2005, 08:33
I have the python skins, which I bought after getting snake skins. There's no way that the no. 3 skins will fit the nest and my explorer ultralight.
Really unfortunate that JRB can no longer sell them. Could they offer them as a 'thankyou' to you for say.... donating to JRB? Would that sidestep the issue?
JoeHiker
06-21-2005, 11:42
I emailed Tom Hennessey and he told me the same thing -- that they're coming out with a #4 SnakeSkin that is oversized like the Python Skins. I even ordered them already. But 3 weeks later I still haven't received them so I can't tell you how good (or bad) they are.
SGT Rock
06-21-2005, 14:57
I have the python skins, which I bought after getting snake skins. There's no way that the no. 3 skins will fit the nest and my explorer ultralight.
Really unfortunate that JRB can no longer sell them. Could they offer them as a 'thankyou' to you for say.... donating to JRB? Would that sidestep the issue?
OK, so maybe it is upsizing by three, so for a ultralight you would need the #4.
stickman
06-21-2005, 19:44
I know a smidgen's worth of patent law. Its well established that if you have a patent and someone "infringes" it by making the same product, if you don't take action to stop that infringement it essentially invalidates your patent. It then becomes unenforceable and worthless. Tom has some valuable intellectual property in his products, protected by his patents, and he not only has the right to protect them, in some sense he has to, or he looses them completely.
Having said all that, I think its too bad Tom didn't just license JRB the right to produce the Python Skins for a royalty or consideration of some kind. The hammocks are great and so is the underquilt. The Python Skins tie them together into a great system, IMHO.
Stickman
The HotDog
06-21-2005, 20:41
Why don't you just make some python skins just hve someone that owns some give you the dimension's for it. Then find some waterproof nylon from wally world. If you can't sew find a talior or someone else to sew them for you or just learn to sew yourself.
I know a smidgen's worth of patent law. Its well established that if you have a patent and someone "infringes" it by making the same product, if you don't take action to stop that infringement it essentially invalidates your patent. It then becomes unenforceable and worthless. Tom has some valuable intellectual property in his products, protected by his patents, and he not only has the right to protect them, in some sense he has to, or he looses them completely.
Having said all that, I think its too bad Tom didn't just license JRB the right to produce the Python Skins for a royalty or consideration of some kind. The hammocks are great and so is the underquilt. The Python Skins tie them together into a great system, IMHO.
StickmanI agree, Stickman. I don't hold it against Tom H for acting to preserve his patent rights. It's just that I wish HH and JRB could have worked something out to continue to offer their customers this product, or that HH would have started to offer a comparable sooner. I look forward to hearing JoeHiker's assessment of the Snakeskin #4 when he receives it. If things don't work out soon, it looks like it's the hard ground for me again this year!
Catfish John
dougmeredith
06-22-2005, 12:21
I look forward to hearing JoeHiker's assessment of the Snakeskin #4 when he receives it. If things don't work out soon, it looks like it's the hard ground for me again this year!
I have an HH with an underquilt. I just use the normal snake skins. I put the underquilt in it's own stuff sack. I have no real desire to use python skins. I would rather take care of the quilt on it's own.
Doug
SGT Rock
06-22-2005, 12:35
Talked to Tom, he plans to come out with an underquilt too. I don't think he can patent the idea of an underquilt, but he might be able to patent however he ends up attaching the system. Originally with my JRB underquilt I kept it seperate from the hammock when not in use, but after using it for over a year I can see the utility of keeping it with the hammock most of the time.
Mr. Clean
06-23-2005, 18:58
I've had a Hennessey for about four years now. I've heard of snake skins but have no idea what they are or what they do. Can someone explain?
see bottom of this page http://www.hennessyhammock.com/new-products.htm
basically they are tubes of silnylon that slip over your hammock before you untie it from the trees - sort of like two long thin stuff sacks with a hole in the bottom for the support rope
Ohh.. I see.....Hennessy can make an underquilt but JRB can't make a Python skin.....Sounds fair to me.....?......
Talked to Tom, he plans to come out with an underquilt too. I don't think he can patent the idea of an underquilt, but he might be able to patent however he ends up attaching the system. Originally with my JRB underquilt I kept it seperate from the hammock when not in use, but after using it for over a year I can see the utility of keeping it with the hammock most of the time.
wentworth
06-23-2005, 23:50
Sgt Rock: Do you know anything about this new Hennessy underquilt? synthetic or down? or is it just an idea at this stage?
titanium_hiker
06-24-2005, 15:49
Hennessy have patented snakeskins. This means that they can make money and no big corp will come in and make mountains of cash and swallow the market. If they don't defend against JRB (however "nice" they are) then this pretty much means that anyone (IE "megacorp") could make snakeskins on a commercial level.
underquilts aren't patented, as far as I know, by JRB or anyone else. No one can patent the general idea of an underquilt though, because there has to be proof of originality to claim a patent.
titanium_geek
Just Jeff
06-24-2005, 16:28
What if JRB changed some aspect of the skin? Would it still be patent infringement. Adding drawstrings or compression straps, maybe?
I don't think the issue is Tom's patent rights. It's that most companies with "patent pending" on a product advertise it as such. Since Tom didn't, JRB thought they were free to produce their improvement on his product...which Tom apparently hadn't thought of yet.
Then when Tom saw how well the JRB skins sold, he pulls out his patent and all of the sudden is marketing larger skins to fit over his supershelter. Hrm...
dougmeredith
06-24-2005, 19:37
The issue is that Hennessy has a patent and JRB violated the patent. They accept this and have stopped manufacturing the product. Seems simple enough.
Doug
Youngblood
06-24-2005, 20:22
As I understand it, Tom applied for the patent on the snakeskins a while back (before Jack started selling them) and Jack wasn't aware of that. When Tom received his patent, he informed Jack and asked him to stop selling the product because it violated his patent... which is what you do if you have invested the time and money in obtaining a patent for your original ideas.
Patents take time and cost a certain amount of money to obtain. Just because small cottage industry products, like many of the products that you see in the lightweight backpacking community, don't have patents (or patents applied for) doesn't necessarily mean that there are not original ideas involved that are patentable. Sometimes folks with limited resources don't have the money or see the wisdom in investing in patents on a product until they get a warm fuzzy feeling for its potential profitability... why spend thousands of dollars(?) on the patent process for a product that you are not sure you can make any money on?
Youngblood
SGT Rock
06-24-2005, 23:00
Sgt Rock: Do you know anything about this new Hennessy underquilt? synthetic or down? or is it just an idea at this stage?
I'm not sure exactly where Tom is with this yet, last e-mail I traded with him he said he was coming out with one soon that would be synthetic. I'm waiting to see what it looks like. I now have on of his supershelter and pad systems, but alas, it ain't cold anymore to test it.
Patents are only good for 5 years aren't they. That was why everyone had to wait 5 years before they could start making gortex gear under a different name.
SGT Rock
06-25-2005, 10:21
It is actually 20 years as of 1995 with the NAFTA treaty, prior to that it was 17 years.
Youngblood
06-25-2005, 10:27
Patents are only good for 5 years aren't they. That was why everyone had to wait 5 years before they could start making gortex gear under a different name.
I don't know what all the details are on patents, I've heard them before but can't remember them. You are talking about legal stuff and I don't remember it as being as simple as 5 years, even if that is the right time interval. I vaguely recall that there are time intervals involved where you have to pony up some money if you want to keep the patent enforceable... and that there is a maximum time interval for how long a patent is enforceable.
Youngblood
bearbag hanger
06-26-2005, 10:30
I thought since JRBs python skins were larger than HHs snake skins, making them a different product, he would avoid a patent infringement. Not sure, but arguing it would be very expensive for both companies.
My biggest worry is if Tom Hennessey makes an underquilt, he will patent it and everyone who makes one now would have to stop, or face him in court. Patents do have to be original, but the patent office doesn't really know what's original and what's not. It's the people making similar products who have to file some sort of protest or other paper work, etc. with the patent office after Tom files for a patent. Otherwise, the patent office doesn't have a way to know if something is "original" or not.
There are ways to keep track of this sort of thing. Not sure what it cost, but I suspect anyone can get a notice if, and when, a certain person or company files for a patent.
JoeHiker
06-27-2005, 14:27
I thought since JRBs python skins were larger than HHs snake skins, making them a different product, he would avoid a patent infringement. Not sure, but arguing it would be very expensive for both companies.
Making a duplicate product, only larger isn't a sufficient difference. It would still violate the patent.
My biggest worry is if Tom Hennessey makes an underquilt, he will patent it and everyone who makes one now would have to stop, or face him in court. Patents do have to be original, but the patent office doesn't really know what's original and what's not. It's the people making similar products who have to file some sort of protest or other paper work, etc. with the patent office after Tom files for a patent. Otherwise, the patent office doesn't have a way to know if something is "original" or not.
I don't know Tom Hennessey but I don't get the impression he's some money crazed opportunist. He filed for a patent on Snakeskins because they were an innovation and he knew it. Likewise, an underquilt is clearly NOT an innovation and he knows that as well. I doubt he's going to try to patent something which he and most of the ultralight hiking community know was invented by someone else and has been used for quite a while already.
briarpatch
06-27-2005, 15:16
Byer has been making a "hammock sock" for several years, its like a one piece snakeskin, but larger and heavier. I wonder if this violates Tom's patent, or if it pre-dates it?
www.byerofmaine.com/amaz-acces_hamm-sock.htm (http://www.byerofmaine.com/amaz-acces_hamm-sock.htm)
dougmeredith
06-27-2005, 15:26
Byer has been making a "hammock sock" for several years, its like a one piece snakeskin, but larger and heavier. I wonder if this violates Tom's patent, or if it pre-dates it?
Interesting. I guess we would have to read the details of the patent to have an opinion on this. I, for one, am not interested enough to put myself through that!
However if someone else wants to suffer through the reading, and summarize for the rest of us, that would be just great. :)
Doug
Youngblood
06-27-2005, 15:28
Byer has been making a "hammock sock" for several years, its like a one piece snakeskin, but larger and heavier. I wonder if this violates Tom's patent, or if it pre-dates it?
www.byerofmaine.com/amaz-acces_hamm-sock.htm (http://www.byerofmaine.com/amaz-acces_hamm-sock.htm)
Don't know, but I thought people have been using something that was essentially the same to stow sails for centuries.
Mr. Clean
06-28-2005, 20:36
Snake skins sound interesting, are they worth fooling with? Can hammocking get any easier?
Dances with Mice
06-28-2005, 20:53
Snake skins sound interesting, are they worth fooling with? Can hammocking get any easier?Yeah, they're worth it. I used them for the first time this spring, a HH w/ 8X10 tarp and the largest skins HH sells. Photo here, I think:
http://www.whiteblaze.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/7041/sort/1/cat/500/page/1
Can't even really see the 'skins in the pic, but they're there. They turn your hammock into a thick rope. Just tie the ends of the rope as tight as you can to the tree huggers then unskin and the hammock drops right out. Tie off the tarp, stake out the hammock and tarp then get in.
I usually don't stake out the hammock right away. I'll stake out the tarp then fold the hammock in half and use it as a seat or bench to lay down on as I change clothes and cook supper under the tarp.
No, it really couldn't get any easier.
I just want to thank everyone at WhiteBlaze for all the replies and input. There is an incredible amount of wisdom consolidated here - it is amazing that so many experienced hikers are willing to share their hard earned knowledge.
I'm going to go with a HH Explorer Ultralite A-Sym, JRB Nest, JRB 8x8 square SilNyl Rainfly (thanks, neo), and (hopefully) appropriately sized HH SnakeSkins. I have a message into HH to find out if they'll fit the above configuration, and when they'll ship.
I've done some patent work and looked at Tom's existing patent for the snakeskins (6,851,137) issued in July 2002. It's a clever idea and he should profit from his innovation. Whether or not it is invalidated by prior art is an issue for the pricey IP lawyers. I don't think there are any "bad guys" here - JRB responded to an unmet need for bigger snakeskins and provided the marketplace with product. I think they stopped as soon as Tom notified them that they were violating his patent. Tom has a right and a duty to defend his intellectual property.
My original post was a reflection of my frustration in finding a great configuration but then not being able to complete it. If Tom is going to offer other sized snakeskins, then I'm all set.
Thanks, all!
VAMTNHIKER
06-30-2005, 07:17
I'm going to go with a HH Explorer Ultralite A-Sym, JRB Nest, JRB 8x8 square SilNyl Rainfly (thanks, neo), and (hopefully) appropriately sized HH SnakeSkins. I have a message into HH to find out if they'll fit the above configuration, and when they'll ship.I am currently using the same set up with JRB's Python Skins... I had the HH Size 3 Snake Skins. Recommend waiting for Tom Hennessy to come out with the new #4's to make room for the Nest. (Take a backorder... go for your hammock now).
I love the system!! :clap
Enjoy!
So, next silly question - using the Nest as an underquilt, and hammocking in the summer (nightime temps down to 40F?) - what do folks use (if anything) as a top cover?
dougmeredith
06-30-2005, 13:30
So, next silly question - using the Nest as an underquilt, and hammocking in the summer (nightime temps down to 40F?) - what do folks use (if anything) as a top cover?
I use the Nunatak Arc Ghost.
http://www.nunatakusa.com/Sleeping_Bag_Ghost_Blanket.htm
Doug
After a long, very educational discussion with Jack (Peter Pan) at Jacks 'R' Better, I'm going with the JRB 3 Season Quilt Set which consists of the Nest as an underquilt and the No-Sniveler as the top cover. It sounds like the best combo for my style. Jack is an incredible source of knowledge and advice, and the JRB web site has great articles with their condensed knowledge.
By the way, their web site domain name is having some problems just because of a paperwork snafu but you can get to their web site at http://216.83.168.206/.
Jack wasn't sure about the fit of the HH #4 snakeskins for the HH Ultralite A-Sym, JRB Nest, and JRB 8x8 tarp since he hasn't seen them yet. As soon as I get my whole setup, I'll report back to WhiteBlaze on the fit.
Jack did pass on to me that he used to wrap the tarp into the snakeskins but now prefers to pack the tarp seperately, keeping moisture away from the hammock and quilt, and allowing access to the tarp during the day and for dryer setup in the rain. Anyone have opinions on that?
Thanks again!
Mr. Clean
07-01-2005, 13:30
I might just have to get a pair and experiment with them. Thanks.
Youngblood
07-01-2005, 16:39
...Jack did pass on to me that he used to wrap the tarp into the snakeskins but now prefers to pack the tarp seperately, keeping moisture away from the hammock and quilt, and allowing access to the tarp during the day and for dryer setup in the rain. Anyone have opinions on that?
Thanks again!
Well, I don't use any kind of skins but I do put my hammock and tarp in seperate stuff sacks. Seems to me that to do otherwise would defeat a lot of the usefulness of the tarp if the tarp was large enough to be used independently as a tarp. If you use a tarp that is so small that it doesn't have much use other than covering the hammock, then it may not make that much difference except for the issue of stowing a wet tarp... but I bet you could figure out how to do that well enough with a small tarp.
Youngblood
bearbag hanger
07-01-2005, 23:42
Jack did pass on to me that he used to wrap the tarp into the snakeskins but now prefers to pack the tarp seperately, keeping moisture away from the hammock and quilt, and allowing access to the tarp during the day and for dryer setup in the rain. Anyone have opinions on that?
Thanks again!
Last year, I kept my HH canopy with the hammock inside the snake skins. Except when it was wet, then I carried the canopy on the outside of the pack where it wouldn't get everything else wet.
But now I carry the JRB 8X8 tarp as a canopy and will probably always keep it outside the python skins I got from JRB last winter.
That reminds me of another nugget Jack (Peter Pan) of JRB passed on to me. He said to tie the tarp to the tree separately, not clipped to the hammock as the directions say. AND, tie the tarp knot/lash BELOW the hammock lash. He says this way when your weight pulls the hammock down, the tarp will be positioned properly for maximum coverage. Also, separating the tarp from the hammock means the tarp maintains its angles independent of the loaded hammock.
Makes sense - I'll try it when I get my gear. Jack, please jump in if I got it wrong.
Catfish John
Oh, I wish I was a catfish
Swimming in the deep blue sea
peter_pan
07-03-2005, 08:47
Catfish John, et al,
Your understanding is correct. The following will put the discussion in context for others
This point ( tarp positioning and attachment) is an oft debated one ( search Whiteblaze archives for prior debates on this subject). Because any tarp that is tied to the hammock suspension line will sag when the hammock is loaded we believe the simplist and best answer to a secure, non sagging, non floppy tarp is to secure it to the same trees the hammock is tied to on the ridgeline. This eliminates the problem of designing shock cords or sling shot band tensioners or the use of weights to dynamically reduce the sag problem and resulting issues caused by lack of consistent and correct tension. It is also a lighter answer.
As to the placement of ridge line tieout cords on the trees, There are many options. The key is to determine the protection desired for any gven night. For a moderate summer night with minimal chance of rain. one might chose to have the tarp tied 6 inches above the hammock lines. This will create 18-24 inches of breeze way above the hammock. This type of set up offers, better fresh air flows during slight to light breeze conditions , better sight lines both horizontally and on an upward angle to view the stars while still protected from straight down rain. It also totally eliminates any condensation issue.
For storm protection, Tieout the tarp ridge cords to a point approximately 6-8 inches below the hammock tie points. Before loading the hammock this will put the hammock ridge line in contact with the hammock ridge line. But, once the hammock is loaded there will be about 4-8 inches of ventilation between the tarp and hammock. This will provide maximum coverage and adequate ventilation.
Note, the distance between the trees is important. 12-14 feet works best and when used consistently enables quick, always the same, positioning estimates. The greater the distance, the more sag will occur in the hammock, thus the more that factor most be considered in planning where to attach a tarp for the coverage desired.
Pan
Youngblood
07-03-2005, 09:55
Pan,
I realize that my tarps are larger than the ones you use. Even though I do not tie my tarp to the hammock suppension ropes and therefore don't need shock cord line tensioners to initially get my tarp taut, I've had favorable results with shock cord line tensioners. Silnylon tends to stretch, especially when it gets wet. Shock cord line tensioners help reduce the associated sag and eliminates the limp line syndrome that contributes to tarp failures that can occur when they are exposed to wind bursts. I would not discount the usefullness of shock cord line tensioners.
Youngblood
peter_pan
07-03-2005, 13:53
Youngblood,et al,
Good point...there is a place for shock cord tensioners...
I prefer to think of thier use as an "enhancement" as opposed to a necessary addition to tension a slackened tarp attached to the hammock line. After our June hammock hangers campout at Hot Springs I added shock cord tensioners as you and Jeff had... These did take up about an inch of slack caused by material stretch on a couple of nights of testing... I have since removed them. Since the 8x8 tarp remains taut without them, when tied out to the trees. Eliminating them saved just under 2 oz and simplifide the cords on each corner.
Since the value of the shock cord you speak of is not sag caused by poor pitch but actually the stretch of the material it is noteworthy that the larger the tarp 8x10, 9x9, 10x10 or larger the more useful shock cord tensions become.
Pan
Just Jeff
07-03-2005, 20:17
I'd agree that tarp tensioners are not "necessary" but they sure do keep my tarp tight. As you said at the April campout, Youngblood's tarp and mine were the only tight ones in the morning, and I think we were the only two who didn't need to re-tension our tarps before bed Saturday night.
I think it helps keep me dry, too. As the sil stretches, it flaps in the breeze, which is annoying, can open the sides to wind-blown rain, and increases the chance of structural failure. With a tarp that stays tight all night, I don't need to worry about it loosening or flapping during the night.
As you said, not "necessary" but still a useful addition, IMO. I'd be very surprised if mine total an ounce, but I'll weigh them when the movers finally deliver my stuff!
Jeff, still living in a rental...
Folks,
Thanks again for the great info. I'm happy to report that the HH #4 SnakeSkins fit nicely over my HH Explorer Ultralite A-Sym and JRB Nest. As Peter Pan suggests, I'm packing my JRB 8x8 square SilNyl Rainfly separately. However, I believe that the rainfly would fit in the HH #4 Snakeskins also, based on how easy the snakeskins slide on. I am thoroughly impressed with the quality of both the HH and JRB products.
I also installed a small Home Depot line level on the ridgeline to aid in setup.
Goodbye hard ground!