View Full Version : Any alternatives to a tent?
I've been going through all of my gear, inventorying, weighing, trying to get rid of redundancies, using more items with a dual purpose, substituting lightweight alternatives to heavier items, etc. I have discovered that these items are the heaviest (note: the food list is not complete):
- 2 person tent with alliminum frame/stakes (weight=5 pounds)
- Trail mix (14 8-oz bags), vienna sausages (weight=6 pounds)
- Backpack (mountineering, 65L/3966 cubic inches) (weight=3-1/2 pounds)
- 2 16oz alluminum sports bottles (weight=2-1/2 pounds - full)
- Clothing (1 fairly thin jacket, 1 sweater, 2 fairly thin pants, 3 pocketed t-shirts, 3 underwear, 3 socks (weight=5 pounds)
- 45 degree compact fleece sleeping bag (weight=1 pound)
The rest of the gear weighs very little and is not really an issue but all of the heavier items listed above (together) weigh 23 pounds. I can shave a pound off of the pack by using a less heavy-duty, nylon, 2-1/2 pound 21"x15"x8.5" pack instead but beyond that, I'm kind of lost here.
I'm on a pretty tight budget so I can't just rush out to some specialty shop and lay down hundreds of dollars for a tent that weighs 8oz, etc. I've thought about a hammock (too exposed and the ones with mosquito netting are expensive). I've thought about bivies but very little room and also expensive. I've even thought about using two rain pounchos and a foam mat and just leaning up against a tree with my cloths pulled up over my head and my knees tucked in (would that really even work?).
Then, there's the food. You have to eat (unless you have a lot of money and like going into town every other day). Trail mix, canned meats, peanut butter, olive oil, etc really add up as far as weight is concerned (even if you eat the heavier items on the first day you can't eat everything and so most of the weight will still be there). Dehydrated packets of soup, mashed potatoes, baby pablum, instant oatmeal, etc weight next to nothing but you can't just eat these items all the time because you need lots of proteins, fats and calories.
The clothing adds up too - even if you just carry dress pants and tee shirts!. Any ideas on how to get clothes weight down?.
The 2 16-oz alluminum bottles of water (surprizingly) only weighed 2-/2 pounds FULL so that is a good thing. Also (as was suggested earlier) I can use Gatorade bottles (or sports bottles) to get the weight down even further.
I am not a gram weanie but I don't want to be lugging a huge mule pack up a mountain either. I'm a small, older fellow. Kind of out of shape and I just want to keep the weight down as much as possible.
Any suggestions are welcome - thanks!
Title should have read "Any lightweight alternatives to these items" instead. Apologies.
The Cleaner
03-12-2013, 17:55
What's with the 45* fleece sleeping bag?Are you hiking the Florida Trail?Till May you might see 45* for a daytime high temp on the AT.You need at least a 20* bag for the AT in March&April.....
Really, seven pounds of trail mix?
The 45* sleeping bag is very small, lightweight and easier to dry out in the event I have an accident due to a medical issue I have. A larger bag would be much heavier/bulkier and probably never dry out.
No, about 5 to 5-1/2LB's of trailmix (about 6 with the weenies).
I'm actually looking for suggestions on lightweight alternatives to the items listed above. Any ideas on what might be used instead so I can lighten the load?.
The Cleaner
03-12-2013, 18:42
Just do like most thrus do lately,carry 2-3 days of food and stop at a hostel which are now about at every other gap south of Damascus.If your planning on sleeping with everything you're carrying,after 1 or 2 nights near freezing temps you will be on a very short hike....
Hostels cost money (even if you use one every 2-3 days). On a thru hike and for someone on a tight budget, this can be difficult which is why I was thinking in terms of a tent, bag, etc. I'm also not sure how I would carry a large bag and all of the clothing I see other people talking about (which is generally a lot) and still be able to fulfill my basic needs and maintain at least some degreee of self-sufficiency.
shakey_snake
03-12-2013, 19:09
First off, weight everything. You'll be surprised at how the little stuff really adds up.
I've been going through all of my gear, inventorying, weighing, trying to get rid of redundancies
...
- Clothing (1 fairly thin jacket, 1 sweater, 2 fairly thin pants, 3 pocketed t-shirts, 3 underwear, 3 socks (weight=5 pounds)
Can we agree that you're maybe not being honest with yourself?
The rest of the gear weighs very little and is not really an issue but all of the heavier items listed above (together) weigh 23 pounds. I can shave a pound off of the pack by using a less heavy-duty, nylon, 2-1/2 pound 21"x15"x8.5" pack instead but beyond that, I'm kind of lost here.lighter shelter, lighter pack is a start, but you really need to add up all those little things.
I am not a gram weanie but I don't want to be lugging a huge mule pack up a mountain either.Become one!
Think of it as a phase you really have to go through. :)
First off, weight everything. You'll be surprised at how the little stuff really adds up.
Can we agree that you're maybe not being honest with yourself?
lighter shelter, lighter pack is a start, but you really need to add up all those little things.
Become one!
Think of it as a phase you really have to go through. :)
Actually:
Weigh everything, since everything has weight.
There, I did it, and I promise not to do it again. :)
Weighing is a process, and a verb (to weigh).
Weight is a noun (a thing).
Why do I care? Beats me. I guess English is the only subject I excelled in when I was in school (sciences were close, as long as a lot of math wasn't involved - I'm an admitted math moron :().
Besides weighing everything, cut down on duplicate items. One large cookpot is lighter than two small ones (and the space isn't wasted in your pack if you stuff food into the cookpot).
Extra socks can be gloves (not in the dead of winter, but on an unexpectedly cold night or morning).
Try using a homemade alcohol stove instead of a much heavier liquid fuel or canister stove (canister stoves aren't bad, but it's hard to gauge how much fuel is left in them - and you won't want to carry a scale to find out :D).
Clothing should be many thin layers, with one thick layer which isn't too affected by water (synthetic or fleece). Down is good for extreme cold, but don't get it soaked. Damp, it dries out as fast as synthetics. Soaked, and you'll be looking for a clothes dryer.
On closer inspection of your list, I don't find anything wrong with it (unless you're a solo hiker, then you could use a solo tent. A lot of folks don't include water (or even the empty bottles) in their pack weight.
Fleece is good for clothing, but only good for very warm summer nights, and if it doesn't have a nylon shell, the wind will blow right through it.
Look at the Seescape Scout from www.sixmoondesigns.com (http://www.sixmoondesigns.com) for a light, economical, well designed tent. I haven't seen one in person so I can't vouch for the construction or materials.
Here's the direct link: http://www.sixmoondesigns.com/tents/SkyscapeScout.html
The tent weight probably concerns me more than anything at the moment. My current 2-person tent w/frame and stakes weighs in at 5LB's. Since the whole hammock thing is an issue for me, would it even be possible to use something like the following setup?:
1) Find a good tree off in the trail.
2) Lay mat down in front of the tree
3) Put a poncho on
4) While sitting on mat (to keep off the ground) and poncho on (to keep yourself dry), proceed to pull your shirt/coat over your knees, your arms into your shirt/coat and your head through the collar (in other words, you are forming a tent/cacoon using your clothing)
5) Lean your back against the tree and go to sleep
I used this method a few times - even in the snow (not sure it would on the trail though). I've also heard of people using 2 ponchos to make a homeade bivy.
Any ideas on this?
I added a link to my last post that might interest you, Todd. :)
I've used a poncho for weekend hikes when I knew that there wouldn't be any rain (or just a brief shower). When it's windy you'd want at least an 8x10 tarp so you could anchor it to the ground and still have room to move inside.
Bivy? Yeah, I have one, and have had others (non-waterproof- for use with a tarp). You'll want a tarp to use with your bivy once you try changing, eating, etc. in the rain. Tarp and bug net, hammock and separate bug net (which I use now), or an ultralight tent are the way to go when travelling solo.
P.S. I've slept sitting up a number of times, but I wouldn't want to have to do it all the time.
Gotta go!
Chaco Taco
03-12-2013, 19:42
Can I make a suggestion?
I have been following alot of your posts. I see where you are coming from with the $$$ issue and such. Why not get the right gear and just do a long section? There is no shame in it. Having seen many of your posts, I can see you getting out and getting really hungry or cold or wet or be forced into staying in hostels because of a lack of comfort then running out of funds. But seriously, why not get the gear that ends up working for you and making you comfortable instead and doing some of the fun parts of NC/TN and Virginia since its close to home. Just my opinion.
Todd52:
It is called hiking not torturing your body. You can definitely survive a few average nights exposed to elements( considering your age) but in a long distance hiking your body needs to rejuvenate via resting in a comfortable situation( tent , hammock) to be able to hike again the next day day in day out. Tinker gave you a viable option for a tent that is affordable and well respected. Think about a better gear before starting your hike sir.
You've received a lot of really good advice in your prior threads, and it seems like you've ignored a lot of it or you simply haven't taken it to heart. Additionally, you're asking a lot of questions that have either already been addressed, or could be solved with a simple search through the forums. My input is highlighted in red.
I've been going through all of my gear, inventorying, weighing, trying to get rid of redundancies, using more items with a dual purpose, substituting lightweight alternatives to heavier items, etc. I have discovered that these items are the heaviest (note: the food list is not complete):
- 2 person tent with alliminum frame/stakes (weight=5 pounds)
Why a 2 person tent? A 1 person tent can save you a little bit of weight. Look at lightweight Sil Nylon tarps, or the "TarpTents" offered by Henry Shires as alternatives to tents if you find that the hammock scene isn't for you. www.tarptent.com
- Trail mix (14 8-oz bags), vienna sausages (weight=6 pounds)
Food is highly subjective. As people have mentioned in your other threads, depending on your weight, your metabolism, your amount of exertion, the amount of food you'll need will vary. Some people are fine with 1.25ppd, others need 2.00ppd. Aim for a caloric density of 100cal/oz or higher. You can supplement foods that are deficient in calories with a bit of olive oil. Whether you get the food now or on a resupply makes little impact on the cost of it.
- Backpack (mountineering, 65L/3966 cubic inches) (weight=3-1/2 pounds)
Exactly WHAT pack is it? You may be able to trim some excess fat on the pack to shave a little weight. Are there any straps or features that can be cut off that won't impact the functionality of the pack? If so, grab a pair of scissors. Extra webbing often just gets in the way. Cut it, and burn it to seal the ends.
- 2 16oz alluminum sports bottles (weight=2-1/2 pounds - full)
Ditch the aluminum bottles. Empty gatorade bottles work just as well, and are much lighter. Even lighter than gatorade bottles are the plastic water bottles that most spring water brands have switched to. Some use up to 33% less plastic, so they are lighter and thinner.
- Clothing (1 fairly thin jacket, 1 sweater, 2 fairly thin pants, 3 pocketed t-shirts, 3 underwear, 3 socks (weight=5 pounds)
Why do you need so many clothes? You need to be more precise with what you're telling us about your clothing and equipment in general. What kind of "fairly thin jacket" is it? What kind of sweater? What kind of pants? Think of clothing as a system that is designed to protect you, not as garments. You only need 1 rain shell, 1 insulating layer, and a base layer for most conditions. The only thing you really need multiple pairs of is underwear and socks, and you can usually get by with 2 pairs of each.
- 45 degree compact fleece sleeping bag (weight=1 pound)
Why a 45* fleece sleeping bag? You want at least a 32* bag, and for some that's pushing it for all except the summer months, and even still, you can only get away with a colder bag if you have the clothing system to supplement it. Shoot for a 20* down bag. Down is light, warm, and packs very small. A good 30* bag will weigh less than a pound and a half. A 30* down quilt will weigh even less.
I am not a gram weanie but I don't want to be lugging a huge mule pack up a mountain either. I'm a small, older fellow. Kind of out of shape and I just want to keep the weight down as much as possible.
I think the biggest thing you need to focus on right now is your own fitness. Getting pack weight down helps, but a light pack doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to be able to put in the miles. You said in another thread that a 30lbs pack makes your legs wobble and that it feels incredibly heavy. Well, I hate to break it to you but a 30lbs pack is not a terribly large amount of weight if you're hauling over a week of food. If you're not going to do resupplies, then you're just going to have to accept the fact that you will have to carry a heavier pack. There's no way around that. I'm not sure what your aversion to resupplies is. It costs money whether you carry all the food at the beginning or whether you break from the trail to go to a grocery store. The differences in price will be minimal.
Get out for some shorter hikes and get used to walking distance with weight on your back. Overnighters and day hikes are a good start before you move on to some weekenders, because you're only going to ruin the experience for yourself if you try to bite off too much too soon.
Country Roads
03-12-2013, 20:11
If you plan to spend a lot of nights in shelters, you could ditch the tent and use a 7 x 9 piece of plastic painters drop cloth as a tarp, you might find that you prefer it. I have spent quit a few nights under one. Keeps you dry, decent weight, cheap, requires learning only one knot (double sheet bend is my preference for the four corners). I agree with getting a scale and weigh all your gear. It can be a real eye opener. For instance, a nalgene water bottle can weigh from 5 to 6 ounces, empty. Use gatoraid bottles or lightweight water bottles; cheaper and much lighter. You can make a pretty decent alcohol stove using a catfood can. Do a search for "fancy feast stove". They are light and the fuel is easy to find and it is much easier to determine how much to carry between resupplies. Another way I lighten up is to use as few stuff sacks as possible, they can add 1/2 pound or more of extra weight to your load. strip down your pack to only the components you really need: take off the "top lid", that can take up to a pound off the weight of the pack. Cut off stuff that you don't use. I have lightened up packs a 1/2 pound or so that way. Dress only for function, not style and use light layers, it is easier to regulate your comfort that way. You don't want to soak you layers with sweat. Do some shake down hikes and when you get home from each one, make three piles of gear: what you used every day, what you used once or twice and stuff you did not use at all. Start with the did not use at all pile and determine worst case scenario if you leave it home. Usually it can be left home with no ill effects. Decide if another item in one of the other two pile could serve double duty (bandana can be a doorag, neck scarf, towel, tablecloth, mosquito swatter, etc). Just keep working at it, you will lighten up and wonder why you thought you needed so much stuff. Most importantly, don't forget to just enjoy the hike.
Are you planning to post a journal? You have one loyal follower if you do?
I sincerely do apologize if I'm giving giving the impression that I'm ignoring advice or just brushing it off (or asking questions that may seem similar to other ones already asked or answered elsewhere on the forum). I have actually spent weeks (staying up very late) reading, searching, watching videos, making lists, modifying lists, packing/unpacking, sorting through gear, making trips out for more gear, getting rid of some gear, reading again, etc and I've followed lots and lots of the advice given here and find it extrememly vaulable which is why I'm still here asking and reading :) . It just might seem that way because I'm not reporting back here to say that I've just followed this peice of advice or went out and purchased (or got rid of) a particular peice of equiptment, bought a book, etc but honestly, I've been carefully following everything and have a vast assortment of notes and made many changes as a result of the help and advice I've recieved here.
Chaco Taco
03-12-2013, 20:54
Like was suggested earlier, you wont EVER really know what works for you til you actually get out and do some overnighters. If you dont, you overthink things
I sincerely do apologize if I'm giving giving the impression that I'm ignoring advice or just brushing it off (or asking questions that may seem similar to other ones already asked or answered elsewhere on the forum). I have actually spent weeks (staying up very late) reading, searching, watching videos, making lists, modifying lists, packing/unpacking, sorting through gear, making trips out for more gear, getting rid of some gear, reading again, etc and I've followed lots and lots of the advice given here and find it extrememly vaulable which is why I'm still here asking and reading :) . It just might seem that way because I'm not reporting back here to say that I've just followed this peice of advice or went out and purchased (or got rid of) a particular peice of equiptment, bought a book, etc but honestly, I've been carefully following everything and have a vast assortment of notes and made many changes as a result of the help and advice I've recieved here.
Tuckahoe
03-12-2013, 20:58
One possible tent option might be a Appy trails MkIII -- http://appytrails.com/at_three_man.html. Its a 2 tom3 man tent that comes it at under 20 ounces and priced at about $100. Some might be turned off by its lackmof a floor, but not something I think is a big deal.
swjohnsey
03-12-2013, 21:35
Your food sucks. Look for the tread on Calorie Density. You can save money and weight.
swjohnsey
03-12-2013, 21:36
A liter of water is not enough. Two Gatorade bottles will do.
Gatorade - are we talking about the pint or quart-sized ones (ie; how many ounces) and are they the ones with the regular, screw-on cap or the ones with the sports-bottle top that you pull up to open and push down to close?. I'll be getting these and a few other supplies suggested here tommorow.
BobTheBuilder
03-12-2013, 22:45
You live in Atlanta, for goodness sake. Go hike some single nights on a trail, AT or other, and learn a few of these things for yourself. You have started 21 threads on this site, claim to have done hours and hours of research, and yet you still want somebody to tell you what kind of top your gatorade bottles should have. Really?
swjohnsey
03-12-2013, 22:57
Gatorade - are we talking about the pint or quart-sized ones (ie; how many ounces) and are they the ones with the regular, screw-on cap or the ones with the sports-bottle top that you pull up to open and push down to close?. I'll be getting these and a few other supplies suggested here tommorow.
Quart, they have a wide mouth screw on cap.
Feral Bill
03-12-2013, 23:17
For shelter, you can be fine with a 1 pound tarp (<$100), or a two pound one (much cheaper). I'm concerned about the sleeping bag. Perhaps there is another solution to your medical issues. The food you'll fiure out for yourself soon enough. Have fun!
In the time it took to say all that, you could have simply said something that was actually constructive like "quart-size. Screw on". Yes, I have spent many hours trying to learn all I can about hiking before I go off and actually doing it. Unfortunately, none of those hours were spent researching gatorade bottle sizes or cap types and who's counting the number of threads a person starts anyway?. I wasn't aware that there was a hard limit...
Any alternatives to a tent?Nope. All real hikers have to hike with a tent.
daddytwosticks
03-13-2013, 07:19
You live in Atlanta, for goodness sake. Go hike some single nights on a trail, AT or other, and learn a few of these things for yourself. You have started 21 threads on this site, claim to have done hours and hours of research, and yet you still want somebody to tell you what kind of top your gatorade bottles should have. Really? Agree! Follow up on all your research with some "field work". :)
Chaco Taco
03-13-2013, 07:24
In the time it took to say all that, you could have simply said something that was actually constructive like "quart-size. Screw on". Yes, I have spent many hours trying to learn all I can about hiking before I go off and actually doing it. Unfortunately, none of those hours were spent researching gatorade bottle sizes or cap types and who's counting the number of threads a person starts anyway?. I wasn't aware that there was a hard limit...
He is right though. You can do all of the research you want, but until you actually go out and get in the woods, you wont learn a damn thing.
Basics:
Backpack
shelter (tarp will be just fine)
paracord
sleeping bag, 32 degree or even a 15 degree (I used 2 bags, one for start and end, then a summer bag in the middle)
Thermarest Zlite pad (usually about $20)
Starlyte Alc stove ($10-$15)
Alcohol in a small 8 oz water bottle
2 Big Gatorade bottles with wide mouth. You can replace these over and over at conv stores. Aint rocket science
piece of tyvek ground cloth
Ditch any and all cotton in your tshirts and socks (you can get this stuff on the cheap at target)
2 pair of socks, one to wear, another for camp or when the others smell too bad
2 underwear (target sells champion underwear duofold)
baselayer (campmor.com sells very cheap)
winter hat, not cotton
rain jacket
hiking pants
tshirt (target cheap)
dont bother with campshoes, but if you must, immitation crocs
food- personal pref, but vienna sausages and 8 pounds of trail mix will get old really fast, Dont carry more than 3-5 days worth of food. Its silly to do so. You can resupply cheap in towns. Its not the amazon.
GET A GUIDEBOOK!!!!!! HELL ILL MAIL YOU ONE, FOR THE LOVE OF EVERYTHING THAT IS SACRED. PM ME your address and Ill get it to you! But seriously, get one!!!!!!
Bandana (for washing out your pot)
Cooking pot (look in the DIY section for hwo to make a pot at home. Heineken Beer can works well, just cut the top off with the can opener that wont leave a sharp edge)
2-3 lighters
headlamp or cheap mag lite
wrap strips of duct tape around your lighters for patching up stuff
Or you could just take what you have and go out for a weekend. Dont worry so much about weight. You will figure that part out as you go and food too. But seriously, stop cyberhiking and go out and get some field testing done or you wont make it to Springer. You will just worry yourself to death
Chaco Taco
03-13-2013, 07:26
check this out too, big discounts on stuff you may need
http://outlet.altrec.com/winterclearance/?cm_mmc=dispatch-_-dsp1487-_-html-_-link
BobTheBuilder
03-13-2013, 09:20
In the time it took to say all that, you could have simply said something that was actually constructive like "quart-size. Screw on". Yes, I have spent many hours trying to learn all I can about hiking before I go off and actually doing it. Unfortunately, none of those hours were spent researching gatorade bottle sizes or cap types and who's counting the number of threads a person starts anyway?. I wasn't aware that there was a hard limit...
It doesn't really take that long to see how many threads a user started. two clicks about does it. I was suspicious that you are just trolling here, and I think that is probably the case.
The correct answer, of course, is to use Powerade bottles, not Gatorade bottles. And blue, not red.
HikerMom58
03-13-2013, 10:19
It doesn't really take that long to see how many threads a user started. two clicks about does it. I was suspicious that you are just trolling here, and I think that is probably the case.
The correct answer, of course, is to use Powerade bottles, not Gatorade bottles. And blue, not red.
I agree!!!
It might help us offer constructive advice about the specific items that you have. The Good. The Bad. The Ugly.
If you can tell us exactly what gear you have. Maker. Model. Internet link to the item would be super. Someone here may have, or had, the exact same item. You can get first hand information like, "Great tent", or "Crap tent, it might kill you". Get the idea?
I have a question about your tent. Many tents allow you to use the poles & fly alone for a nice lightweight shelter that is usually head and shoulders better than all but the best tarps. Usually at 2/3 to 1/2 the weight of the total package. Have you thought about that?
I'm guessing that your fleece "sleeping bag" is little more than a slumber party sleep over indoors thingie or possibly a liner for a real sleeping bag. Synthetic bags won't be any more trouble to keep clean and dry than your fleece pretend sleeping bag.
I suggest that you stop spending any of your small budget until, like many have said, you get some real world experience.
Repeat advice: Read any of Colin Fletcher's books in The Complete Walker series.
Look for consignment stores that cater to sporting goods. Look for gear on craigslist. Look for gear in the sale forum here and other similar online forums.
Wayne
Cookerhiker
03-13-2013, 19:07
Add me to those who are concerned about your 45* sleeping bag. When are you leaving - I guess it was on one of your other threads? At least get yourself a liner. My Sea-to-Summit liner (http://www.seatosummit.com/products/display/24) claims to add 15* and based on my experience with it, that's correct. You'll see from the photo that it takes up very little space.
After watching this one click on his channel and see his other backpacking videos, and good luck.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6wnpP9XW20
SunnyWalker
03-13-2013, 22:39
Dump the whole load and start over.
T.S.Kobzol
03-14-2013, 06:50
After watching this one click on his channel and see his other backpacking videos, and good luck.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6wnpP9XW20
The trail is not wide enough to lug a ping pong table.
Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk 2
Your post came across as condescending and did not answer the original question (which was simple and innocent enough) and then to be accused of being a troll and/or failing to follow advice when I have now spent weeks doing just that. I personally find it very insulting.
It doesn't really take that long to see how many threads a user started. two clicks about does it. I was suspicious that you are just trolling here, and I think that is probably the case.
The correct answer, of course, is to use Powerade bottles, not Gatorade bottles. And blue, not red.
Chaco Taco
03-14-2013, 22:20
Id maybe try ignoring the posts you dont like because now, you are just asking for it
Your post came across as condescending and did not answer the original question (which was simple and innocent enough) and then to be accused of being a troll and/or failing to follow advice when I have now spent weeks doing just that. I personally find it very insulting.
Are there alternatives to a ten?
You bet. "Lots of them."
1. Tarps. Wings. Ponchos. With/without bug netting. Supported by your hiking sticks.
2. Tent fly and poles. Bug netting optional.
3. There are dozens, perhaps hundreds, of tents that are smaller and lighter than your 5+ pound tent.
4. Hammock. From simple to full weather/bug protection.
5. Forego shelter cowboy style.
6. AT shelters.
7. Hostels, motels, hotels, B & Bs.
8. Stay home.
Standing by for you to answer a few questions.
Wayne
Your post came across as condescending and did not answer the original question (which was simple and innocent enough) and then to be accused of being a troll and/or failing to follow advice when I have now spent weeks doing just that. I personally find it very insulting.
Todd52,
The folks on here are trying to tell you that your choice of sleeping bag is inadequate, and I think downright dangerous. But it sounds like you aren't listening. If your medical condition dictates that you must use the fleece bag, then you need to start later in the spring.