View Full Version : Bag vs. Bag plus Liner
macfriend
03-14-2013, 19:59
I am looking at buying a sleeping bag for a thru-hike, probably beginning of April. I am looking for one bag to last me the whole trip. Should I buy a 20 degree bag, or a 30 degree bag with a 15 degree liner and then as it warms up I can take it out. Which would work better?
I wouldn't think of a liner as anything more than a way to keep my bag clean.
swjohnsey
03-14-2013, 20:47
Neither. Buy a 35 degree bag and plan on sleeping in your insulation on a few cold nights. I used a WM 35 degree bag and slept in 100 wt fleece top, bottoms, balacava and mittens on the few nights it got down into low 20s, high teens.
Sleeping bag liners are good for one thing - lining your sleeping bag. Sleeping naked? Maybe you should have one.
Polyester, fleece, wool, and even down garments can be worn inside a sleeping bag. If they are clean, they will keep the bag clean
Unlike a bag liner, you can wear the garments around camp, and wear them while doing laundry, shopping, etc. while in town.
If you have a hooded bag, make sure you wear a hat or a bandanna if you want to keep the inside of the hood clean. Hair gets really dirty on a hike. :)
daddytwosticks
03-15-2013, 07:33
If you are a restless sleeper like me, you may come to HATE the liner. :)
If you are a restless sleeper like me, you may come to HATE the liner. :)
I've heard that from many people. Unless your liner is somehow attached to your sleeping bag (at the foot, at least) it will twist and turn between your bag and body like loose socks in an oversized boot. The only time I consider using a liner is when it's well below freezing (usually zero or below) in which case I might bring a vapor barrier bag liner which keeps body moisture out of the insulation in your bag (especially important on long term sub-freezing trips when you won't have a chance to dry your bag). What happens if you spend multiple sub-freezing nights in a bag without a vapor barrier is that ice crystals will form in the insulation at the point where your body's heat fails to keep the insulation above the freezing point. These ice crystals build up day after day, increasing bag weight and reducing loft. If the interior of your bag is a dark color you might be able to turn it inside-out in direct sunlight to dry it during the day (that's why you often see pictures of sleeping bags draped over tents on Mt. Everest).
The lightest and best way to increase the efficiency of your sleeping bag is to use a vapor barrier.
Unfortunately, using a vapor barrier liner, the moisture which your body gives off will stay in the garments you are wearing and you will feel clammy. When you get up the next morning or at night (to pee, or for whatever reason), the shock you feel as the cold air hits the clammy clothing can be breathtaking!
That's why, if using a vapor barrier liner, I only wear long underwear to bed. I can't afford to get my thicker insulation damp.
Bottom line is that your body gives off far more moisture than you are conscious of when you are asleep.
Do remember, if you put on a bunch of clothes in your sleeping bag to stay warm you very well might end up colder than had you not put them on. What keeps you warm in a sleeping bag is the dead air space, it's not like a few ounces of down has magical warming properties.
You'd do better to drape your clothes over the outside of your sleeping bag in some (many?) cases.
Exceptions being hats, mittens, and thermalwear. I'm talking about putting on coats and other garments that compress the down in an attempt to stay warm.
Do remember, if you put on a bunch of clothes in your sleeping bag to stay warm you very well might end up colder than had you not put them on. What keeps you warm in a sleeping bag is the dead air space, it's not like a few ounces of down has magical warming properties.
You'd do better to drape your clothes over the outside of your sleeping bag in some (many?) cases.
Exceptions being hats, mittens, and thermalwear. I'm talking about putting on coats and other garments that compress the down in an attempt to stay warm.
Reader's Digest condensed version: Compressed down is not a good insulator. Make sure that your sleeping bag has room for extra clothing inside.
"it's not like a few ounces of down has magical warming properties."
Exactly - insulation doesn't provide warmth anyhow (some newbies don't realize this) - it just holds whatever your body provides.
If your body has calories to burn and water to allow the body to efficiently process those calories, and if you have enough dry insulation, you will be warm.
Reader's Digest condensed version: Compressed down is not a good insulator. Make sure that your sleeping bag has room for extra clothing inside.
"it's not like a few ounces of down has magical warming properties."
Exactly - insulation doesn't provide warmth anyhow (some newbies don't realize this) - it just holds whatever your body provides.
If your body has calories to burn and water to allow the body to efficiently process those calories, and if you have enough dry insulation, you will be warm.
It's a close call but if you have enough room in your sleeping bag to wear a bunch of clothes your bag is probably too big to begin with.
It's a close call but if you have enough room in your sleeping bag to wear a bunch of clothes your bag is probably too big to begin with.
Very true.
If one plans on buying a bag for a set temperature range, he/she should not have extra room inside, except for underwear and light clothing.
If one buys a sleeping bag which will allow efficient use over a wide temperature range, he/she should buy a bag with a rating near the top of the temperature range expected but with enough room inside for bulky clothing or an insulated liner bag (a bag within a bag).
Personally, I have a bag which is rated to 40 degrees which, in my case (because I sleep warm [and the bag is underrated, efficiency-wise]), I can use down to 30 degrees. That bag weighs 1.5 lbs.
I have another bag which I use for summer only. This bag is rated to 45+ degrees, and the rating is accurate for my use. This bag weighs 1 pound exactly, and has a full zipper so I can open it to a quilt for use up to whatever it is that requires no bag at all.
Both bags, combined (2.5 lbs.) can take me down to 10 degrees comfortably, and below if I wear light down clothing and use a hot water bottle.
If a person is willing to do some research and experimenting, a two bag system will be only a bit heavier than one bag for the lowest temperature expected and can be far,far more versatile.
If a person is willing to do some research and experimenting, a two bag system will be only a bit heavier than one bag for the lowest temperature expected and can be far,far more versatile.
This is what I do too. On the hike I just finished I carried my 20* bag and my 50* bag.
I totally agree - this is a great system.
Lots of possibly valid strategies offered. Since I'm a neutral sleeper but want to to be warm and comfortable when counting trail sheep and given all the things you are mentioning plus an accurately temp rated 30*bag that's the bag I would use and also go with a UL Cocoon silk mummy liner(about 3 1/2 oz) and also sleep in much/all of my hiking clothes and make sure to bring along a nice light or mid wt merino wool beanie and UL nylon running gloves to hike /sleep in addressing your question from multiple angles. I have a high tolerance level for short periods of COLD though. Mail the liner and gloves home when it warms like sometime in May. *That's under a tarp too! which is my typical 3 season go to protection. You didn't say anything about shelter you will be using. For example, when I'm in one of my tents it can add 10* alone to my sleep system warmth compared to say hanging in my hammock where I feel colder with everything else being equal. The AT has shelters too that might add some protection/warmth to the way you sleep. Don't forget about adding the heated water bottle trick into your bag or Toasty Toes(body warmers) to add some warmth and that different sleeping pads or adding a light wt insulating pad just for insulation under you can affect how warm you snooze. You can always tweak things for what's right for you with the 30* bag by mixing things up a bit. Depends on if you know how and are willing to do this. Since you are starting in early April, which is similar to my AT start date in 2006, I would look at like this. You really only need to get through about 30 days before the 30* bag by itself is primo for MOST of an AT thru. Add warmth back into the mix as it starts getting colder on a longer duration NOBO thru. If you go with just the 20* bag you'll be overly warm in it during a few months on the AT so will have to drape it over you or do something else from getting too heated up in it. Do realize that a 30* bag is considered by most to be a summer bag. You'll probably have to alter your sleep system a bit during the beginning and possibly at the end of your AT thru to roll with it or accept that you might have some cool nights in it. I gave you some recommendations on how to add some warmth to a 30* bag. Eventually, it's your call.
IMO, the quoted temp increases by MOST liner manufacturers is a bit over inflated. If they say 10-12 increase I find it's more like 6-8 of an increase. Even with the Cocoon silk mummy liner and that I toss and turn throughout the night I don't get tied up in that kind of liner. I think it's mainly because I don't stuff myself inside too constricting of a sleeping bag and that I opt for the lightest wt SILK liner, which is a thinner more slippery material than say a cotton or fleece liner where I tend to get tied up more easily. I'm also lying prone cowboying or under a tarp so I'm not bent(somewhat twisted, LOL) like Tinker would be inside a liner inside a sleeping bag inside a hanging hammock tossing around.
Two bags(?), the AT, given your start date, their temp ratings, and you possibly tenting - no way - not me! OVERKILL! Probably not warranted in your situation. Take the less bulky, lighter wt overall, more double duty accessory gear option route. Two sleeping bags can take up LOTS of volume.
Two bags(?), the AT, given your start date, their temp ratings, and you possibly tenting - no way - not me! OVERKILL! Probably not warranted in your situation. Take the less bulky, lighter wt overall, more double duty accessory gear option route. Two sleeping bags can take up LOTS of volume.
For sure 2 bags for an April AT hike would be overkill. If I were starting an April AT thru I'd probably take my 35* WM bag and have my silk thermals and wool cap along for sleeping.
On the Sheltowee hike I just got back from I took my 2 down bags - total weight was 2 lb, 14 oz. I have to say, the gear I took for my ST trace hike was near perfect for the conditions I encountered. I was never cold, tired, hungry or wet in a way that I couldn't quickly remedy.
10-K, from what I gather, you really know what's going on. Your two bag system would take into consideration factors, conditions, etc that start getting beyond this thread. IMO, your two bag system has merit. But it helps explaining your opinions so all can possibly more adequately understand where you are coming from.
BTW, how did hiking in rain pants or the shorts and bottom thermals work out for you on the PT? ST? I chose that set up on the PT which worked nicely.
From Dogwood:
"I'm also lying prone cowboying or under a tarp so I'm not bent(somewhat twisted, LOL) like Tinker would be inside a liner inside a sleeping bag inside a hanging hammock tossing around."
Except that my sleeping bag is outside of my hammock ;).
LOL. All good Tinker. Outside your hammock? I learned something new today. Now, I have to go to sleep and get away from this IT side show for awhile.
I am looking for one bag to last me the whole trip. I'd suggest that you stop looking for that. Through must of the summer you won't need or want much more than a fleece blanket but in the White Mountains it can snow any month of the year.
I think a quilt is the best solution if you want something that will work for the entire trip. Actually, not just any backpacking quilt, but one with a foot box that opens completely.
Explain Leaftye. Why?
It works well enough for cold weather. It should be expected that it performs to its rating, of course.
In warmer weather is where it shines. That footbox that can be opened allows the quilt to be opened like a blanket. If there's enough room, you can lay the thing out flat. That makes a huge difference. I can use my 0°F quilt in my living room like that. This is what a sleeping bag cannot do. Some quilts can't do it either.
If that's not enough, shifting down would extend the range further. Enlightened Equipments unique baffles would add flexibility as to how the down is shifted.
There's still the option of letting body parts hang out, but I personally can't stand that.
A warm hat would be needed in cooler weather, but could be left packed or sent home or bounced when it's warmer.
It might not be as comfortable as a fleece blanket in the summer, but I think it's the the best single solution for a wide range of temperatures.
I'm trying to work out some potential problems when using my 20* Golite Down Quilt(are you familar with it?) in some situations. I'm kind of new to quilts with only about 100 nights trail side in it. Don't know if I'm doing something wrong, or the type of quilt I use, or the type of set up I use with the quilt, some combination, etc I'm getting the feeling that I'd rather opt for a quilt in warmer(about 25-30*+) weather compared to a high end UL down sleeping bag below those temps. I want to get a better understanding of quilts from someone who is more experienced than me but don't want to hijack the thread. I want to talk to you more about quilts. Any other WBers that are experienced quilters you know of?
evyck da fleet
03-16-2013, 15:53
I carried a 20 degree bag and silk liner on my hike last year starting in April because I only wanted to buy one bag and figured I could use it later when I go out west. The primary use of liner was to keep my bag clean(ish) but I did wind up sleeping in it with my bag open from N'ern VA to MA while it was hot. A couple of times when it cooled down in the middle of the night I'd wake up for a few seconds to throw the sleeping bag over top of me or to zip it up.
I really didn't need the combo to keep warm even on the nights where it got down to the 20s. I found the bag and liner were enough and any clothes I had on made me feel hot. BTW I slept in a tent.
This is my summer bag (but mine is the pre-spiral design. The spiral design is supposed to stabilize the down a bit better). I use it inside my Golite Feather-lite 800 fill bag in cold weather.
http://www.montbell.us/products/disp.php?cat_id=795&p_id=2321806
Makes a great quilt for the summer. You can pat the down away from the center so you don't have so much insulation on warm nights. That's another thing that you can do with down and you can't do with synthetics. On the downside (no pun intended), down does have a tendency to shift in poorly designed and/or underfilled bags, or old bags where the down has broken down (again, no pun intended). :)
staehpj1
03-19-2013, 06:43
People vary widely in how warm they sleep and how warm they want to be. Using what other folks say works for them without experimenting for yourself is a bad idea. I have been on trips where one person was in a good 15F bag and another in a 45F bag and the person in the 15F bag said they were freezing all night and the one in the 45F bag was fine.
richmondhokie
03-19-2013, 08:36
I am going out the first weekend in April for a section hike in Virginia - and I am not certain my bag - while rated 30* is REALLY that good - I have used it in the low 40s and high 30s and froze my a** off. I have a good-sized large piece of Tyvek that I was considering making into an outer liner for my bag (washing it repeatedly to make it softer/quiet). It would basically be a big sock for the bag to help keep the heat in - thoughts? I don't have the money for a better bag right now.
I've heard that from many people. Unless your liner is somehow attached to your sleeping bag (at the foot, at least) it will twist and turn between your bag and body like loose socks in an oversized boot. The only time I consider using a liner is when it's well below freezing (usually zero or below) in which case I might bring a vapor barrier bag liner which keeps body moisture out of the insulation in your bag (especially important on long term sub-freezing trips when you won't have a chance to dry your bag). What happens if you spend multiple sub-freezing nights in a bag without a vapor barrier is that ice crystals will form in the insulation at the point where your body's heat fails to keep the insulation above the freezing point. These ice crystals build up day after day, increasing bag weight and reducing loft. If the interior of your bag is a dark color you might be able to turn it inside-out in direct sunlight to dry it during the day (that's why you often see pictures of sleeping bags draped over tents on Mt. Everest).
The lightest and best way to increase the efficiency of your sleeping bag is to use a vapor barrier.
Unfortunately, using a vapor barrier liner, the moisture which your body gives off will stay in the garments you are wearing and you will feel clammy. When you get up the next morning or at night (to pee, or for whatever reason), the shock you feel as the cold air hits the clammy clothing can be breathtaking!
That's why, if using a vapor barrier liner, I only wear long underwear to bed. I can't afford to get my thicker insulation damp.
Bottom line is that your body gives off far more moisture than you are conscious of when you are asleep.
Well, my experience with a silk liner is 180 degrees from this. I find it much easier to toss and turn with the liner than without. The silk against the nylon just slides and turns right with you, no tangling at all. I find the advantages of a silk liner to be:
Easier to toss and turn, especially when using the bag as a quilt on warmer evenings. The liner turns with me, the bag stays put, covering me.
Any minor drafts the make it into the bag do not touch and "shock" my skin.
No constricting, or itchy clothes like you have when wearing longjohns and socks
On nice warm nights, often the liner is all that's needed for most of the night, so less sweating and re-adjusting/ventilating the bag.
Arms/legs/feet are also covered, thus protecting you sleeping bag from their dirt and oils.
MUCH easier to wash a liner than a bag.
Does add SOME minor warmth factor, but not really a reason to use one. About 3 degree improvement in my experience.
There are a couple disadvantages:
SLIGHTLY more fiddle factor getting into your bag, but no where near as difficult as detractors claim.
Hmmmmm.... Can't think of any more. Guess there's only one small one.
One other thought, and the most important as far as I'm concerned:
If you use a sleeping bag capable of keeping you warm on the milder nights you expect, and count on using your extra clothing for the colder nights you expect, what do you do when you have a night that is well below what you expect? You've already exhausted you options. Or what happens when you become ill or injured and you need/want some EXTRA warmth?
It's dangerous not to plan to be comfortable at ALL of the expected temps, and survivable at the worst possible temps, that's when your extra clothing should come into play, not for a normal night.
My 2 cents worth. Folks have died this past winter not following that simple principle.
Just to clear things up a bit:
I am not against liner bags.
They do keep your bag cleaner.
They do make it a bit warmer.
So do a clean set of long johns and a knit cap.
You can hardly wear a liner out and about. You can carry it around the campsite and get into and out of it if you want,
OR: you can simply leave your long johns on and do the same thing. (If it pleases you, you can go out and buy a set of silk pajamas). At least you can walk in them.
Liners (unless attached to the inside foot of your bag) make you get into and out of two bags whenever you get in and out.
Liners are a one purpose item - not ideal if you are trying to make every ounce count.
:):):)
Unless of course it's too warm for long johns and a cap. Then you can sleep in just the liner and be cooler than if you only had a bag.
Ps I'm just messing with ya.. :)
Ps I'm just messing with ya.. :)
I know :)
But to use this post as a springboard - there's nothing wrong with a nice set of Egyptian Cotton PJ's in your favorite print if it's hot out. ;)
Cotton won't likely kill you in a sleeping bag in a tent or shelter of some sort - in the summer. :sun
As long as it's Egyptian cotton? How about cotton grown in Mississippi?:) How about Egyptian cotton grown in Mississippi?:) How do you accomplish the sleeping bag outside the hammock thing? What does that accomplish for you? Open footbox?:-? Serious, I'm looking to possibly learn something new from you.
As long as it's Egyptian cotton? How about cotton grown in Mississippi?:) How about Egyptian cotton grown in Mississippi?:) How do you accomplish the sleeping bag outside the hammock thing? What does that accomplish for you? Open footbox?:-? Serious, I'm looking to possibly learn something new from you.
As long as the cotton from Mississippi is grown by Egyptians (and legal citizens, please) :p
Seriously, cotton, any cotton, can be worn inside a bag in warm weather. If it gets damp it may stay that way longer. Egyptian cotton is tightly woven and lightweight - good choice for sleepwear (works well for cotton tents, too, and was used extensively before nylon and polyester fabrics took the tent market by storm).
Pima cotton is good, too, as are cotton/polyester blends. The lighter the better. Hospital scrubs (not the gowns :D) will work as pajamas, too. I could go on and on......no I couldn't. :)
My avatar should clear things up. The hammock threads through the foot vent of the sleeping bag and out the head end (this is a bag that I picked specifically for this feature), so I sit in the hammock and pull the bag up over me, so I have lofted down insulation all around me, not crushed between my body and a mattress (or the inside of the hammock). Saves the weight of a mattress (though I always have a thin closed cell foam pad that I could use for a mattress if I wanted to sleep on the ground. The pad lines my pack and acts as a frame when the pack is loaded. It's always with me, so it serves double duty - almost nightly - since I often sit on it while preparing supper or "hanging out" and talking with other hikers. In an emergency I could even stick the pad up under my clothes (say I fell into a stream) the insulation would still work since it's closed cell foam.
Gotcha. Nice way of looking at things. Never thought of it that way. HMM! What's the special bag you use this way? Does going with this set up lead to drafts in the footbox area?
Gotcha. Nice way of looking at things. Never thought of it that way. HMM! What's the special bag you use this way? Does going with this set up lead to drafts in the footbox area?
Golite Feather-Lite long (800 fill down). Discontinued, unfortunately. It was marketed as a minimilast (no zipper) summer bag, at 40 degrees. Many reviews rated it good to much colder temperatures, so I said to myself "This is exactly what I need for this purpose". The lack of a zipper and the fact that it was warmer than stated by Golite made it unpopular as a "mimimalist summer bag", so it was discontinued. I bought one at a reduced price, and there may be some available, used, out there. I've had mine for 4 years, at least, so I doubt you'd find a new one.
Montbell has the most promising designs for the method in which I use the bag, since the baffling has elastic in it and it hugs the body. This would hold the insulation snugly against the hammock underneath you and would eliminate cold spots that form due to sagging insulation. Unfortunately, they didn't go after the hammock market, and I haven't seen a bag in their catalog with a foot opening and without a hood (hoods do no good if you use a bag as I do, because they would be underneath the hammock and not wearable).
Cotton should be fine in cooler weather too. People used to do that all the time at home. Even if you sweat into it, the outer insulation will evaporate the sweat and move it out. I still wouldn't carry cotton because it's heavy and will stay wet longer if it gets wet for other reasons, but I do intend on using a cotton liner and bottom sheet the next time I do trail work while car camping in the front country because it'll keep my sleeping gear cleaner and it feels more like home.
Gotcha. Nice way of looking at things. Never thought of it that way. HMM! What's the special bag you use this way? Does going with this set up lead to drafts in the footbox area?
Sorry, I didn't answer the second part of the question. No drafts. I installed a shock cord with a toggle to wrap around the end of the bag to keep the foot vent closed against the hammock.
Like it Tinker. Thanks for the replies. You and me, a campfire, a flask, illegal immigrants as the topic, I think we would see eye to eye.:)
Like it Tinker. Thanks for the replies. You and me, a campfire, a flask, illegal immigrants as the topic, I think we would see eye to eye.:)
I'll see if I can round up a couple, and you can get the straight dope from the horse's mouth. ;)
.........and you'll have to make mine non-alcoholic - due to problems with gout - gettin' old.:rolleyes:
Snowleopard
03-31-2013, 11:40
I am going out the first weekend in April for a section hike in Virginia - and I am not certain my bag - while rated 30* is REALLY that good - I have used it in the low 40s and high 30s and froze my a** off. I have a good-sized large piece of Tyvek that I was considering making into an outer liner for my bag (washing it repeatedly to make it softer/quiet). It would basically be a big sock for the bag to help keep the heat in - thoughts? I don't have the money for a better bag right now.
Yes, you actually are certain that your bag is not good enough; you've tested it and froze your a** off at 40. Your 30 degree bag is really a 45 or warmer bag.
Tyvek outer liner (tyvek bivy sack): this will help a little. It adds a little bit of insulation, but not much. It does add a lot of wind resistance, so if you're in a drafty tent or shelter and it's windy it might help a lot.
Wear lots of warm clothes inside the bag. This helps if your bag has the space to do this without compressing the insulation too much. If you have a nice puffy down jacket and down pants it will help a lot if there's room. Some people have success putting a down jacket on top of the bag or wrapping their feet in a vest.
Add a piece of fleece blacket on top of you, inside the bag if there's room, over the bag if there's not.
Wear a warm hat, balaclava or hood. If there are any drafts coming into the bag use a fleece scarf around your neck/head to stop it.