Cold sleeper

[2014hopeful]

I'd like to attempt a thru hike in the spring of 2014. I have plenty of gear (too much from what I've been reading) but will need to make some purchases prior to the trip.

I currently own the MSR 2p Hubba Hubba which is nearly 5 lbs with everything. Since I am a relatively small female with pre-existing lower back problems, I'd like to go as lightweight as possible. Also considering that I work in the outdoor education field, I do not have a whole lot of expendable cash. The other piece of gear that I own for sleeping is a 30* Eureka Silver City bag. (I lost my 0* to a lucky camper.)

There are many sleeping options, but I am drawn toward the Hennessy Hammock Expedition. However, I am a cold sleeper. In 18* weather, I slept somewhat uncomfortably in said Hubba Hubba in a 0* bag with a set of long johns. I slept very comfortably in 27* weather in a lean-to with the 0* bag, a set of long johns, a fleece jacket, a hat, and several articles of clothing around my feet and hips.

I have a torso length self inflatable Thermarest (and not the ultralight one).

Underquilts are over $200 and I'd rather just use the bag I have.

I have never hiked on the AT but I have a feeling I will shy away from shelters and prefer stealth camping (another reason I am drawn to the hammock).

Again, I have moderate to severe lower back pain on occasion from a previous injury.

That's the background. Here are my questions:

A) Can I trust that a sleeping bag liner promising an extra 20* added to my 30* bag will keep my comfortable in Georgia and Maine (only $50) in a hammock?
B) There are full-length underquilt shells for sale at underquilts.com (http://underquilts.com/shop/) for $65--does anyone have experience buying one and stuffing it with an old comforter down or something?
C) Would it be better for me to consider a bivvy or tarp tent and a NeoAir (http://cascadedesigns.com/therm-a-rest/mattresses/trek-and-travel/neoair-all-season/product)? Do they pop easily?
D) If I get a hammock and am going to use a foam pad in it anyway, is the hammock that much more convenient than a tent or something?
E) Why does this have to be so intimidating? I just want to be warm and sleep comfortably.

[Snowleopard]

...
A) Can I trust that a sleeping bag liner promising an extra 20* added to my 30* bag will keep my comfortable in Georgia and Maine (only $50) in a hammock?
...

A. No. The added temperature advertised for sleeping bag liners are usually ridiculously optimistic. If you can fit a lining inside your bag that improves the rating by 20F, there's too much space inside the bag for you.

Sleeping bag ratings are often ridiculously optimistic, especially the cheaper brands, so your 30F sleeping bag might really be a 45F bag. It sounds like your 0F bag was more like a 30F bag.

There is an accurate rating system for sleeping bags but a lot of manufacturers don't use it. Take a look at the specs for this cheap synthetic bag at REI:
http://www.rei.com/product/845508/rei-polar-pod-sleeping-bag
It's heavier and likely warmer than your Eureka bag, but if you look at the "EN comfort" rating (for women), it is rated at 40F. You would probably sleep comfortably in this bag at 40 or 45, not good enough. The "EN" rating is explained in this REI article: http://www.rei.com/learn/expert-advice/sleeping-bag-backpacking.html Look for a sleeping bag that has an "EN comfort rating, for women" rating equal to the low temp you expect (if you can wear a lot of clothes inside the bag you can somewhat lower).

Insulation under you is also important. Your thermarest should be OK, but there are lighter pads. The neoair is quite nice and comfy and light. I don't know much about hammock underquilts, so listen to others for that.

Hiking quilts are another possibility. http://www.enlightenedequipment.com/ has good reports. If you can sew, making your own quilt is possible.

[Snowleopard]

P.S. Welcome to Whiteblaze and good luck on your hike. It'll be great.

[2014hopeful]

Thanks, Snowleopard. You are the first to say that and it feels really good to hear!! I was reading about what you said and I was looking at this BigAgnes sleeping bag (http://www.rei.com/product/811101/big-agnes-lulu-15-sleeping-bag-womens) The comfort rating for women is 34* but it also has no fill on the underside. I assume that they test them with no pad, so do you know if the temperature rating would be improved with a pad? Thank you for the new reading material!

[2014hopeful]

http://marmot.com/product/content/en-tested

I just found this which gives a quick overview of how the test is done. Interesting!

[bear bag hanger]

A) Can I trust that a sleeping bag liner promising an extra 20* added to my 30* bag will keep my comfortable in Georgia and Maine (only $50) in a hammock?
As said before - no. Sleeping bag liners are a little warmer, but no where near 20*. Maybe 5* or 10*, but 10* is optimistic.


B) There are full-length underquilt shells for sale at underquilts.com for $65--does anyone have experience buying one and stuffing it with an old comforter down or something?
No personal experience with DYI, but if you good at it, might work. You'll need at least two and half to three inches of down insulation to get down to the temperatures you need. Other types of insulation may work with less thickness, but I have no experience with them.


C) Would it be better for me to consider a bivvy or tarp tent and a NeoAir? Do they pop easily?
Yes. During cold weather a tarp should work just fine, along with a good sleeping bag and possibly a bivvy. But you need some way to be inside a bugnet during warmer weather. You don't need a heavy tent and carrying it will be a problem. I don't think a NeoAir will pop "easily", but it can be a problem. If you're on the ground, a 3/8 inch, full coverage closed cell pad may be a better option.


D) If I get a hammock and am going to use a foam pad in it anyway, is the hammock that much more convenient than a tent or something?
I use a hammock and love it, but it's not for everyone. Right now I use a under quilt for warmth and that works better than a pad. Right now my 3/8 in thick pad gets me down to about 40*, I've slept comfortably during a 19* night recently with the under quilt.


E) Why does this have to be so intimidating? I just want to be warm and sleep comfortably.
It's intimidating because there are so many choices. If you haven't slept in a hammock, then I would cross that off your list for now. I think a tarp, bugnet and bivvy will get your weight down better than a full tent or hammock setup.

[patman25]

Thanks, Snowleopard. You are the first to say that and it feels really good to hear!! I was reading about what you said and I was looking at this BigAgnes sleeping bag (http://www.rei.com/product/811101/big-agnes-lulu-15-sleeping-bag-womens) The comfort rating for women is 34* but it also has no fill on the underside. I assume that they test them with no pad, so do you know if the temperature rating would be improved with a pad? Thank you for the new reading material!

I have a BigAgnes bag and I use a Hennessy Asym Zip, I use a Thermarest airpad. I have never once gotten cold under me, I've only been down to about 30 degrees with that setup though. You don't need or want filling under you in a bag because once it compresses it's worthless anyway, just extra weight.

[bigcranky]

Liner: not only does a liner often fail to add the advertised temp rating, but in a hammock they are a royal PITA. A bag is hard enough to use inside a hammock -- the liner adds another level of difficulty.

I have slept comfortably in the mid-20s in my hammock on top of a closed cell foam pad, like a Ridgerest. It's not as good as an underquilt, but it's sure a lot cheaper. It's better if the pad is wide enough to wrap around your shoulders. For me, that's 24 or 25 inches, so the XL Ridgerest at 25x78 works pretty well (dunno if they still make it.) Most of the time in my hammock I use my sleeping bag draped over me as a quilt -- stick my feet in the bottom and pull it over. In colder weather I can use it as a bag. It's logistically harder, but it works.

In your position, I would spend the money on a good 20-F rated top quilt and use a CCF pad for bottom insulation. The Enlightened Equipment quilts seem well made and fairly priced.

I have found a hammock to be a mixed blessing. It's much easier to find a good hanging spot than a good tenting spot. It's far more comfortable sleeping. (As in OMG I never want to get out of this thing.) However, I find it slightly heavier for the same temp rating over a tarptent and Thermarest. Also, keeping track of my gear is easier in my tent -- it goes in the vestibule or inside my tent with me. In a hammock that's more difficult.

[Snowleopard]

Do you know when you'll start your hike? or, how what's the coldest you'll hike in?

The sleeping bag insulation underneath compresses to nothing under your weight. That's why a quilt also makes sense for ground or hammock. The bottom insulation is provided by your pad/mattress, or underquilt for a hammock. The colder it is the more insulation you need; in winter in New England people use either 2 pads or one very well insulated pad.

underquilts.com semiDIY quilts. This is an interesting idea. I wouldn't bother with down from an old quilt, quality is too uncertain. Their winter top quilt with 14 oz of down from wildernesslogics.com is:
$80 winter top quilt shell from UQ
$95 14 oz of down from WL
shipping ???
=$175 plus shipping. He'll also put it all together and sew it for an additional $30.

$215 for a complete 20F quilt from Enlightened Equipment (Tim Marshall): http://www.enlightenedequipment.com/product/revelationx-20/
Personally, given that choice I'd buy the EE quilt.

If you're willing to make your own, a synthetic quilt is fairly easy to make. Ray Jardine sells a kit with detailed instructions:
http://www.rayjardine.com/ray-way/php/order-form.php
You can also find directions online and just buy the materials from owfinc.com or thru-hiker.com.

If you're making your own synthetic quilt, you could consider two quilts, one for warm weather, one for cold weather and both for really cold weather.

[2014hopeful]

I plan to start right around this time next year. I am watching the weather in GA closely and see in the very early morning the "real feel" temperature is a little above 35*.

I appreciate all of this input--it's giving me a lot to think about. As far as quilts go, how do they differ from just putting your sleeping bag on top of you? What makes me coldest in winter is the air that can seep in around the collar and at the base of the zipper. How would a quilt that doesn't cover your whole body fix that and how do you know it will stay on you if you move in the night? It's easier to stay warm than get warm again.

After doing some more research and reading here, I am still leaning toward the Hennessy with a pad and a new sleeping bag with a newer rating. Here is my list:

$170, Hennessy Expedition
$80, Hex rain fly (Hennessy or ENO)
$70, Big Agnes Insulated Air Core Mummy Pad
$190, North Face Cat’s Meow Sleeping Bag (34˚ comfort rating)

Is it silly for me to think I can slide the pad inside my bag when I'm in the hammock?

Also, you're right. I can't say for sure if I want a hammock until I use one. My boyfriend thru hiked in 2010 and I've laid in his but never slept in it. He's almost no help--he had a tent until New York then switched to a hammock and ended with no shelter at all. He's a gear junkie and a dreamer though and he's getting a real kick out of all this.

[Tinker]

:welcome

My first hiking hammock was a Hennessy. I went back to a basic hammock mainly because I could thread it through my sleeping bag because the bag has a foot vent. I can set up the hammock with the bag already in it (as a unit) quickly, and then I just climb in, pull up the bag, cinch the neck opening, and go to sleep (of course I have to wear a hat or a jacket with a hood, and pad the area under my head with a fleece garment or similar for insulation). In bug season I use an Eagle's Nest Outfitter bug net over the hammock/bag and, of course, a tarp over the whole system.
I found the tarp which came with the HH to be a bit too small, bought a MacCat standard tarp in spinnaker cloth, found even that to be too small (especially with the bug net, which can get wet from windblown rain or splash-back), so I bought a Gossamer Gear Spinntwinn tarp (tarp for 2 people, normally). That works like a charm as I can close off either or both ends and still get in and out.
If you don't have a sleeping bag with a foot vent you'll need to use an underquilt or some sort of pad. A self-inflating pad is just extra weight in a hammock. Before I hit on my current system, I used closed cell foam pads underneath me. Since a hammock folds around you it will compress the insulation that you are using wherever it is tight. A t-shaped pad (or two pads, one under the other forming the same t shape, with the cross bar of the t being under your shoulders works well to minimize cold spots due to insulation compression. Experimenting with the closed cell foam, cutting it here and there so that it conforms to you while you are laying in the hammock (cutting v-shaped notches in the sides where it wants to fold) might give you a system that is relatively lightweight and efficient.

Oh, yes - start experimenting now, before it gets too warm ;) :p

[mountain squid]

I don't know what 'real feel' temp you are observing, but a 34f bag will likely not be warm enough at this time of year. Per this website (http://www.mountain-forecast.com/peaks/Springer-Mountain/forecasts/1153), Wed night has lows in the teens. You might be cold in a hammock at that temp . . . and don't forget the Smoky's.

Suggest that you find out beforehand if you are comfortable in a hammock. There isn't really any weight savings and when you consider all the complexities of staying warm, a hammock might not be worth it (unless you are comfy). My sleeping pad would not fit inside my sleeping bag.

Good Luck and Have Fun! Consider going to Trail Days (http://www.traildays.us/) this year.

See you on the trail,
mt squid

some observations (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?14493-observations-from-fs42-(advice-for-first-week-on-trail)&highlight=)

[bigcranky]

Is it silly for me to think I can slide the pad inside my bag when I'm in the hammock?


This would be basically impossible. Also, the Air Core is thick and puffy and I wouldn't want to use it in a hammock (it's great on the ground, very comfy.)

I understand when you say that you get cold from air seeping in around your neck. A quilt doesn't solve this issue, of course. In cold weather it's possible to get inside a sleeping bag and get inside a Hennessy Hammock from the bottom slit, and get on top of a CCF pad (which btw is warmer than an inflatable and won't ever leak.) Then zip the bag all the way and cinch down the hood.

The Cat's Meow is a nice bag, but bulky and heavy for the rating. You'll end up needing a larger pack to carry it, which is yet more weight. Perhaps a stretchy 15-F rated down bag like the Montbell Super Spiral #1 ?

For a tarp, I love my Maccat Deluxe (http://www.outdoorequipmentsupplier.com/maccat_tarps.php). Not much more money, much lighter weight, very well made.

[juma]

from what you've said, I'd say a hammock is gonna be too cold for you. I'd recommend a full length sleeping pad with a R5+ rating. Unless you need to side sleep, I'd say use a bag and use the hood and zip/drawstring up tight. A bivy bag might also help.

[Hoop]

Although they're not for everyone, most any hammocker will tell you that getting off the ground was the best move they made as far as comfort (your lower back will thank you). There are trade-offs, though: the space is limited and there's a bit of a fiddle-factor as you learn the set-up.

If you wish to learn more, visit hammockforums.com

[rockymountainhigh]

I've never seen a liner add 20F