Philmont Scout Ranch

[pinkiwong]

I know this isnt much of Appalachian Trail but anyone who know anyone that has their son or brothers or friends attend the Philmont Scout Ranch?
my friend's kid did this 5 years ago, and i heard it was killer! a 10 day trail /hike up to over 12,000 ft above sea level.

Good roads and activity on this trip. I wish i was younger!

[MuddyWaters]

Half the "trails" at philmont are either flat or jeep roads
When people climb baldy they do so as a side hike with a day pack
The miles per day at philmont is low by AT standards, so is elevation gain
Calling it a killer would be an exxaggeration, unless your typical fat out of shape scoutleader carrying a 50 lb pack.
(fully 50% of leaders dont excercise AT ALL before going to Philmont)

90% of the scouts and leaders going to Philmont, wouldnt make it Neels gap on the AT.

[WingedMonkey]

I've done Philmont three times about 100 years ago.

Don't think I could deal with what it's become today.

[WingedMonkey]

20513


Cotton....cotton...and cotton.


:sun

[Wise Old Owl]

Nice pic Wm! put that in the gallery

[Mountain Mike]

I did it many years ago. Each crew chooses their own itinerary. They are posted on their website. They rang from moderate hikes to strenuous. The more moderrate ones often stops at various adventre camps of different themes, gold mining, rock climbing, horseback riding, etc.

[bobp]

My Crew did it in 2011, Trek 30. I wouldn't call it a killer, but I don't recall seeing many of those flat jeep roads, either. Maybe they were in another section of the reservation? I enjoyed it -- the terrain and climate is very different from that of NJ (20% humidity in July is a bit of a change), and we had a good group of adults and youths. For a 14-18 year-old kid, it is an amazing experience (so I am told).

[CarlZ993]

I've done summer treks in 2007, 2008, and a Cavalcade (Horse packing) in 2010. My Venture Crew (10 total; max is 12 w/ no more than 4 adults) is going back again this summer on another trek (I'll miss it hiking the AT).

Carry a light pack. Take your own stuff (assuming its lighter than theirs) instead of the heavy Philmont gear. Get in shape. Get an early start each day to make it to your camp in time to do the activities at staff camps. They now sell fuel canisters as well as the traditional white gas in the backcountry (the norm). My crew is going to use a Wind Pro stove (w/ 4L titanium pot) and a MSR Reactor stove (2.5L) for crew cooking. Last year, they quit allowing turkeybag (or freezer bag) cooking to cut down on trash in the backcountry (Google it if you're not sure what that is).

Can't give you more info. I fly out to Atlanta tomorrow. Have fun @ Philmont. Great place.

[FatHead64]

I was there twice - late 70s and maybe 1980. It was the highlight of my scouting time. The second time I went, our crew was 7 Eagles, 2 Lifes and a Star - get out of the way! Have been to ToT (of course), Baldy, Uracca Mesa, Black Mountain, Cimmaroncito, and a number of other places not immediately coming to mind.

[Lyle]

I've been out there twice, both times we hiked Baldy with full packs and were pointed at by other groups on the summit who had come up with day packs. Usually the leaders pointing to us telling their scouts to quit complaining. Or some of the scouts, fanning their leaders, telling THEM to quit complaining.

It was a long climb, but not brutal, well graded for the most part. As others have said, many of the trails are actually roads. Not too steep of ones. Great place however, and gives the Scouts a good introduction to real backpacking, often their first one.

[Wise Old Owl]

it is s comforting to see folk totally dammit about scouting... warms my heart.

[FatHead64]

it is s comforting to see folk totally dammit about scouting... warms my heart.

Still know the Oath and the Laws - try to live by those, not always successful.:eek:

[Wise Old Owl]

it is all good my friend!

[Maybe one day]

Went there in 2010..Trek 15 I think...We did Mt Phillips which was the high point for our journey. It is a fun trip and a looking forward to a chance to do it again. There are some considerations that are required...LOTS of heavy food given to you - you will not go hungry, but you will understand the term Squeeze Cheese. Water is an issue as it can be sparse, with some camp sites not having water. Trails are sometimes not well marked. One instruction we were given were the three T's of a trail sign - Dont Touch it, Dont Trust it, and Don't Tinkle on it (these are boys in most cases and men that wish they were boys again in some). Philmont gear list is too much...try to avoid if you can get by with it, but understand that the staff can and may make you carry the items recommended. Being from the east, the big adjustment for me was the dust. There are a couple of shower facilities usually available on your trip, but you are only clean until you trun the water off. Mileage usually isn't too bad as the start low and work you up on the treks. Our longest was 14 miles. Get an early start each day and you will be done before it gets too hot. Have a great time!

[Papa D]

my Dad did it in the 1950s - I have his belt buckle. He said it was hot and boring then. My experience is that BSA carry too much stuff and rely on very dated material. Some might have fun. Maybe one day says that their longest day was 14 miles. That's a solid morning for me on the AT assuming I wake pretty early but nothing super special in terms of strenuous effort. My feeling is that it it overrated and that there are better adventures but that's just my opinion and I'm sure some folks get a lot out of it. I kept the belt buckle from my Dad for fun but always made up my own adventures.

[Odd Man Out]

I was there twice - late 70s and maybe 1980. It was the highlight of my scouting time. The second time I went, our crew was 7 Eagles, 2 Lifes and a Star - get out of the way! Have been to ToT (of course), Baldy, Uracca Mesa, Black Mountain, Cimmaroncito, and a number of other places not immediately coming to mind.

I was Second Class for Five years. But in the end, the Scout Master asked me to be the SPL because all the Eagle, Life and Star scouts in the troop couldn't lead a Tederfoot out of a pup tent with a compass. I had no interest in getting Merit Badges but I could stay warm and dry on a camping trip and scare the crap out of the Tenderfoots (Tenderfeet?) with a good campfire ghost story. I'd say we lived up to about 80% of the Boy Scout Law. Can't say many of us were particularly clean or reverent :rolleyes:

[chiefiepoo]

My comment would be about the rigorous LNT ethic observed at Philmont. My trip was in '95 at age 47. The ranch at that time had 12,000+ trekkers each summer season. Using the sumps for all waste water disposal, carrying all garbage and trash out was required. Sleeping was on the most durable surface at the back country sites, mostly small rock or gravel. Compared to those hikers who trash the shelters and AT terrain, the scouts are much better stewards of the outdoors for their time spent at Philmont. The back country was pristine. I remember some jeep roads, also some nice easy grades up canopy covered creeks. There were a few flat meadows to traverse so it can't be said that it is all up and down. Our group went up and over Mt Phillips as required to reach the next overnight. Our sister group did a valley walk around. Climbing up over Phillips, we stopped for lunch. So steep that I was wedged against a tree to keep from sliding down hill. How high were we? High enough that when an F-111 flew over we could smell the kerosene flavored exhaust as it passed over our heads. Philmont, it is what it is. It is not the Philmont death march to be endured. Philmont was, and is, an opportunity for young men to exercise leadership, put outdoor skills to use, seek adventure, test themselves, work as a team, and have some good clean fun.

[Astro]

Half the "trails" at philmont are either flat or jeep roads
When people climb baldy they do so as a side hike with a day pack
The miles per day at philmont is low by AT standards, so is elevation gain
Calling it a killer would be an exxaggeration, unless your typical fat out of shape scoutleader carrying a 50 lb pack.
(fully 50% of leaders dont excercise AT ALL before going to Philmont)

90% of the scouts and leaders going to Philmont, wouldnt make it Neels gap on the AT.

MuddyWaters,
Thanks for sharing. Makes me feel even better about my son who at 10 flew thru Springer to Neels Gap (unfortunately spent more time than I would have preferred waiting on me to keep up) . Knocked out some of his Hiking Merit Badge on the AT.

[chiefiepoo]

And you might give some props to the scouts and leaders who undertake a Philmont trek for the elevations they contend with. Lowest point of the ranch is 6,500' with substantial time spent at 8,000' to 10,000'. Highest point on the AT, well, ya'll know here and what that is. Unless you're from the real mountain regions of the US, starting at over a mile above SL is a challenge. Especially for those of us who live at sea level.

[MuddyWaters]

Philmont is a great place for some kids to go and have an experience they otherwise would never have..
Most of it is not exactly remote wilderness, despite imagery . At any given time in the summer there are more than 1000 people all over Philmont.
You are never more than about 45 min to one hour from help.

25,000 people per year, camping in same sites repeatedly
Its not LNT, its "concentrated impact" camping

We will be there this summer as well.
Trying to deal with one kid and one advisor that have done nothing to improve their shape so far.

#1 problem is people carrying too much weight, in addition to being out of shape. What should be an easy moderate hike turns out to be "killer" for them. They hold back their crew, make them late for programs, etc.

Too many clothes, heavy tents, heavy raingear, heavy sleeping bags, heavy packs, nalgene bottles. The average pack is probably 40-45 lbs leaving base. We hope to have everyone in our group under 30 lbs. Personally, mine looks like it will be about 20 lbs leaving base.

[Mountain Mike]

"Most of it is not exactly remote wilderness, despite imagery . At any given time in the summer there are more than 1000 people all over Philmont.
You are never more than about 45 min to one hour from help.

25,000 people per year, camping in same sites repeatedly
Its not LNT, its "concentrated impact" camping"

Sounds like someplace familiar

[prain4u]

I was at Philmont as a youth in 1978 and in 1986 as an adult leader. I liked it both times.

Trying to compare an AT hike to a Philmont hike is like comparing apples and oranges. Both are very good--but they are two very different things. Thus, you can't really compare them.

I would say that there are six major differences between hiking at Philmont and hiking the AT:

1) The biggest difference is that Philmont is geared primarily toward teenagers age 14-18 (or age 13 if they have completed 8th grade). Conversely, an AT hike is generally geared toward adults. Many teens in that 13-18 age group have a VERY small physical stature. Thus, that has to be taken into consideration when planning activities. (Some Philmont groups are coed groups with coed adult leadership. Imagine how petite some 14 year females can be). In light of the age and size and these teenagers, Philmont itineraries are often far different than an AT hike which is designed for a fully grown adult. (In 1978, when I first hiked at Philmont, I was a 16 year-old scrawny kid--5'6" tall and weighing 117 lbs.)

2) Philmont is geared almost exclusively toward GROUPS (7-12 individuals) who are required to hike and camp TOGETHER. Conversely, the AT is more of an individual (or duo) hiking experience. even if you are hiking with a partner--you are often not hiking "together" on the AT. Thus, these are two VERY different hiking and camping styles. They are about as similar to each other as a chihuahua and a St. Bernard.

3) Philmont is geared toward youth and is affiliated with a nationwide youth organization. Thus, Philmont has to be VERY concerned about safety issues, risk reduction and avoidance of lawsuits. Roughly 23,000 people hike at Philmont each summer. All of that foot traffic needs to be controlled, planned and directed in order to avoid over use of the trails, the camping areas, and environment. Therefore, rules abound at Philmont--and the rules MUST be followed--no exceptions. Conversely, the AT is primarily an adult activity which is deemed "hike at your own risk" and hike at your own pace. Rules do exist on the AT, but many people treat the rules as merely an arbitrary collection of highly optional suggestions.

4) Because Philmont is a SCOUT CAMP--the educational and program activities at Philmont are almost as much a required part of the experience as the hiking. (The youth learning about the history of the Southwest and practice skills in the fields of logging, gold mining, fishing, Native American culture, rock climbing, rappelling, cattle ranching etc.). Almost every day at Philmont has activities to be accomplished OTHER than hiking. Most Philmont groups also spend half of a day (or more) doing trail maintenance or some other service project. All of these additional activities sharply cut into the length of the typical Philmont hiking day. conversely, the AT is primarily all about hiking--with some people participating in "after hours" adult social activities. There are not many educational events or program activities which occur on the AT on a daily basis.

5) Philmont is located in New Mexico in the the Sangre de Cristo Range of the Rocky Mountains. The climate tends to be relatively arid. The elevations at Philmont range from 6,500 to 12,441 feet. Thus, at almost every moment of your Philmont hike--you are at an elevation higher than the highest point on the entire AT (Clingman's Dome, 6,625 feet). Daily temperatures range between 30 to 90 degrees. The elevation issues, the wide-ranging temps, arid conditions--combined with teenage hikers--tends to limit the distances that are hiked each day. (Furthermore, these youth are at Philmont for less than two weeks. Thus, they have very little time to adjust to the elevation, the arid climate or to get their "trail legs"--before their hike is already concluded).

6) Philmont has at least 35 different 10 day hiking itineraries--ranging from relatively easy 56 mile treks to fairly rugged 104 mile treks. You are REQUIRED to be at your designated campsite each night--no exceptions. conversely, on the AT, you can hike as far as you want on any day and camp just about wherever you wish. You can also take neros and zeros whenever you want.

I believe that many AT thru hikers would have trouble completing a Philmont trek at this point in their lives. They would go crazy having to obey rules, follow a set hiking schedule, stay at pre-designated campsites each night, hike at elevations, stay with a group at all times, and having no alcohol to drink. If the limited number of rules in the Smoky Mountains and at the New England huts cause many thru hikers to become frustrated or angry; then the Philmont rules and policies would have those same individuals needing to attend anger management classes. :)

Again, BOTH Philmont and the AT are very good. They are just VERY DIFFERENT experiences.

[hobby]

have been twice---as an adult leader. If you ever have the opportunity as a scout, or adult, do it. I went once with my son and once with just the troop.
Yes, it cost money and time away from work. Yes, you will probably have to buy some equipment. Yes, you will be away from your family for about 2 weeks.
Yes, you will be challenged physically and mentally. You will be uncomfortable at times. BUT---you will remember that time spent on the trek, the rest of your life. How long will you remember another couple of weeks at work.
Although I considered myself an experienced backpacker (and was compared to most adults there), I learned alot while there.
I'd do it again if I had the opportunity.
The altitude is an issue. Spend a couple of days in the area before heading to Philmont to help acclimate.

[Flachenmann]

I went to Philmont twice as a scout in 2002 and 2004. The memories I have from those treks are some of the best I have from my scouting experience. I remember both times my crews did 100+ mile hikes. Our home troop was pretty active, having an outing at least once a month with at least 4 of those a year being backpacking trips.

As a practice hike for Philmont we hiked Mt. Mitchell. It was a great weekend but didn't really prepare all of us Georgia boys for the elevation out west.

Speaking of "concentrated impact camping", Philmont's also the reason I don't pee on trees while outdoors. Only rocks.

[dzierzak]

+1 prain4u

I've done Philmont 6 times as an adult advisor. I've also been sectioning the AT. Apples and oranges. Both are great in their own way. Personally, it's relief to finally get to Philmont because then my job's done (contingent coordinator). The kids are in charge. With 25,000 going to Philmont annually, over the around 2 month camping season, rules and restrictions are necessary. It's always amazed me that the Philmont staff can pull off such a complex operation year after year.

That said, I really enjoy the AT also. Totally different. HYOH!

[Rusty Nail]

I went at the age of 14. Minimal backpacking experience, brand new gear based on what was suggested by other non-backpacking leaders and even though my rig was upwards of 30-40% of my body weight I had a blast. We broke the rules and did a night hike on the second to last day to see the sunrise from Tooth Of Time (I think)., We arrived in base camp, attempted to eat at the mess hall and were lectured that we were way ahead of schedule. Not sure if he stashed it near the camp or if he carried it but our guide for the first few days pulled a cast iron skillet from his pack and made peach cobbler for the crew on his last night with us. If you do not like tuna you will starve without clever bartering and hiker boxes. I would go back as a leader or chaperon in a heartbeat. This trip lead me to start hiking the AT.

[Jeff]

And you might give some props to the scouts and leaders who undertake a Philmont trek for the elevations they contend with. Lowest point of the ranch is 6,500' with substantial time spent at 8,000' to 10,000'. Highest point on the AT, well, ya'll know here and what that is. Unless you're from the real mountain regions of the US, starting at over a mile above SL is a challenge. Especially for those of us who live at sea level.

This is a great point. Worked as a ranger at Philmont many years ago and watching the crews adapt to the higher elevations was interesting.

[coach lou]

I have heard of a new camp on the east coast.....Quantico maybe?

[Creek Dancer]

My son and I did a 10 or 12 day trek in Philmont several years ago. I did not find the backpacking very strenuous. The mileage is kept down to allow the boys time to participate in the camp activities. The hardest part was getting used to the elevation (we lived at sea level) and the dry air. I was constantly thirsty. My son and I had a great time. We still talk about it like it happened last weekend.

[dzierzak]

I have heard of a new camp on the east coast.....Quantico maybe?

The new camp is the "Summit Bechtel National Scout Reserve"
Google Map "Mt Hope, WV". The Summit is marked (at least when I do it) just east of Mt. Hope. It's about 10,600 acres adjacent to the New River Gorge National River. It's the new, permanent site of the Boy Scout National Jamboree and will be the site of the 2019 World Jamboree. When complete it will not only be the Jamboree site, but also the eastern high adventure base for BSA. Others are: Philmont (backpacking, New Mexico), Nothern Tier (canoeing, Minnesota), and Seabase (sailing, etc. Florida Keys). Other things planned include a training center and I don't know what else.

Originally planned for Gosen, VA, local residents killed the idea.

[FatHead64]

The new camp is the "Summit Bechtel National Scout Reserve"
Google Map "Mt Hope, WV". The Summit is marked (at least when I do it) just east of Mt. Hope. It's about 10,600 acres adjacent to the New River Gorge National River. It's the new, permanent site of the Boy Scout National Jamboree and will be the site of the 2019 World Jamboree. When complete it will not only be the Jamboree site, but also the eastern high adventure base for BSA. Others are: Philmont (backpacking, New Mexico), Nothern Tier (canoeing, Minnesota), and Seabase (sailing, etc. Florida Keys). Other things planned include a training center and I don't know what else.

Originally planned for Gosen, VA, local residents killed the idea.

I believe the Northern Tier one is close to or in conjunction with Boundary Waters.

[dzierzak]

Northern Tier is near Ely, MN. In fact, part is on the Canadian side. Boundry Waters and Quetico Provincial Park.

[Odd Man Out]

I have heard of a new camp on the east coast.....Quantico maybe?

There is a 100 square mile "ranch" in Quantico, but that is where they train the Marines. That would be quite an eye-opener for all those scouts.