bear advice

[cschriner999]

Hanging food or sleeping w food, what the safest?
Ps. i don't have a cannister,just some ziplocks.

[leaftye]

Safest for you or safest for your food?

[johnnybgood]

Hanging food or sleeping w food, what the safest?
Ps. i don't have a cannister,just some ziplocks.

Oh boy !! :rolleyes:

[cschriner999]

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[cschriner999]

Safest for me

[Sarcasm the elf]

Assuming you are asking about what to do when hiking on the east coast in Black bear territory and are not talking about out west where they have grizzly's... My personal opinion is keep your food with you at all times. When we say keep food in our tents, what we actually mean is that our food is with us at all times, as it is the presence of a human that keeps black bears away.

The main problem with hanging bear bags is that so many people do it incorrectly that they end up teaching the bears to associate the bags in the trees with an easy meal and then it becomes useless.

There are a few places, such as some spots in Georgia where there bears are so used to stealing food from hikers that they have largely lost their fear of being near humans, if you're in these areas you might want to take additional precautions.

Also I notice you are from New York, if you are hiking the A.T. in your area, most of the shelters have steel bear boxes setup for food storage. Use these and you won't have to worry about it either way.

If you want to learn more about black bears, here's a great site.

http://www.bear.org/website/bear-pages/black-bear/basic-bear-facts.html

If you do decide to hang a bear bag, use the "PCT" method and make sure that you have the bag high enough above the ground and far enough away from the trunk of the tree so that a bear can't reach it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgBLDMuPuvE

[Dogwood]

Safest for you or safest for your food?

I understand. Sometimes, it's best to ask. Never know what's on some people's minds.

[Dogwood]

Bag it. UP IN A TREE.

[Hot Flash]

Assuming you are asking about what to do when hiking on the east coast in Black bear territory and are not talking about out west where they have grizzly's...

FYI, there are almost no grizzlies in the lower 48.

http://www.sightline.org/research/graphics/wildlife-grizzly-cs06/

[cschriner999]

I'm hiking along the Ga NC border

[Hot Flash]

I'm hiking along the Ga NC border

If you see a grizzly there that's not in a zoo, you'll be famous. :)

[cschriner999]

Ha! Not too worried about grizzlies in this area just the black bears

[Lone Wolf]

i always sleep with my food in my tent

[Dogwood]

FYI, there are almost no grizzlies in the lower 48.

Really? That must make me pretty damn special since I've seen them in Montana, Wyoming, and Idaho.

Humans in the Lower 48 shouldn't be bothered with them much longer though. Humans don't like being at the top of the food chain or having to compete with wildlife. Bears may have fangs and sharp claws, be fast and powerful, but humans have guns and, oh SO OFTEN self serving human agendas, so humans will win. Make no mistake about it. It is a competition between bears and humans for resources just like humans are in competition with SO MANY other species sometimes even among themselves. Even though some humans seek to live in harmony with other species there are just too many humans who don't have the goal of coexistence so like grizzly bears MANY other species will be pushed out of the way so humans can and will have what they want. Maybe, humans will be entertained for awhile with these pushed out of the way species only existing caged in zoos but even that situation will become problematic in the long term.

Ignorance, fear, human centric thinking, and a weapon are a dangerous and often fatal combination. Might say humans often behave like a swarm of ignorant inconsiderate self-absorbed self-serving consuming everything in sight locusts. Locusts don't have guns though.

[cschriner999]

Isn't sleeping w food inside the tent
Tempting bears to come in the tent for food?

[PosterNutbag]

what can a best smell stronger, food or a human?

[PosterNutbag]

bear* stupid phone

[Rasty]

Isn't sleeping w food inside the tent
Tempting bears to come in the tent for food?

It's about possession with black bears.

[BradMT]

FYI, there are almost no grizzlies in the lower 48.

http://www.sightline.org/research/graphics/wildlife-grizzly-cs06/

Wow, good to know... only ran into 6 last year.

[Sarcasm the elf]

Wow, good to know... only ran into 6 last year.

They must have been lost?

[BradMT]

Yup... wandered out of a zoo.

Little did I know...

[Rasty]

Yup... wandered out of a zoo.

Little did I know...

It's the same grizzly each time
He gets around.

[Sarcasm the elf]

Yup... wandered out of a zoo.

Little did I know...

We have that same problem with the mountain lions here in Connecticut.

[The Ace]

Here is my answer to the OP’s question which he further clarified by reference to the GA and NC Appalachians.

If by definition an odor-proof food bag is exactly that (i.e. odor proof), then a bear, based solely on its sense of smell, will not have a reason to come into an occupied tent looking for an-odor proof food bag. If a bear, based on reasons other than its sense of smell, were to believe that an occupied tent contains an odor-proof food bag, then the bear, assuming it has the necessary boldness, will come into that tent regardless of whether it contains an odor-proof food bag or if instead the food bag is hanging from a tree one hundred yards away.

If a bear decided to enter a tent, based on smells other than from an odor-proof food bag – e.g., the smell of food on one’s hair, handkerchief, or clothes, or from food wrappers that have been carried in one’s backpack pockets, peppermint soap, mint toothpaste, fruit-flavored Tums for the tummy, etc. – then it does not matter if the food has been hung elsewhere under the guise of personal safety.
There is substantial anecdotal evidence that in the GA and NC Appalachians bears do not enter into tents seeking the contents of odor-proof food bags. There is anecdotal evidence that in the GA and NC Appalachians bears do detect and remove food bags hanging in trees. There is substantial anecdotal evidence that in the GA and NC Appalachians bears run when chased by humans.

Based on the above applied logic and anecdotal evidence, while tent camping in the GA and NC Appalachians, (except the section in GA where regulations prohibit), I sleep with my food secured in an odor-proof food bag next to me; I minimize bear attracting odors emanating from my campsite; I run off any bear that comes around.

[ChuckBrown]

Wow, no grizzlies, someone tell all those bears I saw in Glacier National Park, they don't really exist. Next time I can save the 45bucks on bear spray.

[leaftye]

Wow, no grizzlies, someone tell all those bears I saw in Glacier National Park, they don't really exist. Next time I can save the 45bucks on bear spray.

Don't you know about black bears with big foreheads and shoulders? ;)

[Malto]

Almost everyone that hikes the PCT sees a grizzly.

[Hot Flash]

Wow, no grizzlies, someone tell all those bears I saw in Glacier National Park, they don't really exist. Next time I can save the 45bucks on bear spray.

Hello?! Reading comprehension is your friend. Try actually reading what I posted. Maybe I should have used smaller words.

Look again and you'll see that I absolutely didn't say there were NO grizzlies. I posted a range map of where they exist, and as you can see (if you had bothered to look) it is very limited in the lower 48. Could you see a grizzly in the lower 48? Sure, if you go to the area where they still exist. I've seen them at uncomfortably close distances to me; I know what they look like. But I'm also smart enough to not worry about them in the areas where they don't range.

[The Ace]

Hey cschriner999, while hiking between GA and NC, make sure you don’t make a wrong turn. Apparently, you can end up in Glacier National Park and be eaten by a grizzly. It appears that you have already wandered into a zoo.

[vamelungeon]

These "odor proof" bags are a joke as far as black bears are concerned! Bears are thought to have the best sense of smell on the planet, several times that of dogs. If a bag existed that could keep dogs from smelling the contents, all the bomb/drug/other contraband sniffing dogs would be unemployed, and bears are 7-10 times better at detecting odors. You arent hiding any odors from them.

[leaftye]

These "odor proof" bags are a joke as far as black bears are concerned! Bears are thought to have the best sense of smell on the planet, several times that of dogs. If a bag existed that could keep dogs from smelling the contents, all the bomb/drug/other contraband sniffing dogs would be unemployed, and bears are 7-10 times better at detecting odors. You arent hiding any odors from them.

Seeing as how I live near the border and have family that works with border enforcement, I've often wondered the very same thing.

I do think the bags work to some extent though. It should let out less odors, which means a bear would have to randomly stray even closer to it before it picks up a scent. I bet those bags reduce that smellable area drastically, and that's worth it to me. I don't sleep with my food though. I'd just rather give my food less reason to attract animals.

[vamelungeon]

Seeing as how I live near the border and have family that works with border enforcement, I've often wondered the very same thing.

I do think the bags work to some extent though. It should let out less odors, which means a bear would have to randomly stray even closer to it before it picks up a scent. I bet those bags reduce that smellable area drastically, and that's worth it to me. I don't sleep with my food though. I'd just rather give my food less reason to attract animals.
Reduced odor would perhaps be more appropriate.

[Rasty]

Seeing as how I live near the border and have family that works with border enforcement, I've often wondered the very same thing.

I do think the bags work to some extent though. It should let out less odors, which means a bear would have to randomly stray even closer to it before it picks up a scent. I bet those bags reduce that smellable area drastically, and that's worth it to me. I don't sleep with my food though. I'd just rather give my food less reason to attract animals.

Bears can smell through a canned item and identify an item like sauerkraut that it is not interested in! I don't think the odor proof bags are going to fool the bear.

[jeffmeh]

Yes, they are not odor proof, but the odor reduction means the bear needs to get closer to pick up the scent than it would without the bag. For eastern black bears, it's generally still about possession, odor-proof bag or not.

[max patch]

Even if they worked as advertised - and they don't - when you cook your meals you are going to transfer food scents from your hands to the outside of the bag.

[Lone Wolf]

Hanging food or sleeping w food, what the safest?

sleeping with food

[staehpj1]

Hello?! Reading comprehension is your friend. Try actually reading what I posted. Maybe I should have used smaller words.

Look again and you'll see that I absolutely didn't say there were NO grizzlies. I posted a range map of where they exist, and as you can see (if you had bothered to look) it is very limited in the lower 48. Could you see a grizzly in the lower 48? Sure, if you go to the area where they still exist. I've seen them at uncomfortably close distances to me; I know what they look like. But I'm also smart enough to not worry about them in the areas where they don't range.
But you did say, "FYI, there are almost no grizzlies in the lower 48". Perhaps you meant, "FYI, there are no grizzlies in most of the lower 48".

[leaftye]

Wow, this thread has been derailed.

OP, if a bear can't possibly smell food in your tent, then you're safer. You'd be even safer if backpackers never stored food in their tent because then bears would have no reason to come sniffing around your tent. You would be even safer if you were good about handling food smells while you cooked and ate, and stored your food in odor proof bags. Give that bear's nose absolutely nothing.

[The Ace]

There exist both ample anecdotal information and field-testing results that indicate an odor-proof bag keeps bears from seeking the food sealed inside. There is one lab test stating that the material used in the OPSak branded bags are 17,000 times more odor resistance than the HDPE material typically used in zip lock bags. There is significant trail experience on the GA and NC section of the AT (that’s what the OP asked about) indicating that it is highly improbable that a bear will enter an occupied tent when food is contained in a sealed, odor-proof bag inside of the occupied tent. (There is also significant trail experience on the GA and NC section of the AT indicating that it is highly improbable that a bear will enter an occupied tent containing food in an open or non-odor proof container.) There is significant trail experience on the GA and NC section of the AT indicating that it is highly improbable that bears physically harm people on the GA and NC section of the AT. There is significant trail experience indicating that bears occasionally come into the camping areas on the GA and NC section of the AT and are run off by backpackers.



There is significant trail experience on the GA and NC section of the AT indicating that there is a reasonable probability that a food bag hanging from a tree will be disturbed by a bear.

There is significant trail experience from many backpackers that the OPSak branded bags are fragile and need to be changed out periodically.

There are some individuals who state that odor-proof bags are a joke, but they do not provide anecdotal or field testing information that demonstrates that odor-proof bags are a joke for use on the GA and NC section of the AT.


There are some backpackers who come onto message boards and ask if someone can pick them up at a trailhead on the GA and NC section of the AT because a bear got their tree-hanging food bag.

[Runsalone]

Ho...leee.....crap. Dude your not going to get a solid answer here on the interwebz. Ya know why? because everybody has there pet reasons they do whatever they do and why.

My sugesstion is go hiking. Follow the officially recommended "hang your food" routine untill you have sufficient experience in the area your hiking in to have your own reasons, and why.

All your going to get here is "your way's stuuuuupiiid!"....."NUH uHHH YOUR way's stuupiid" Ad nauseum

Anyone telling you thier way to do something is the only way and all other ways are stupid........is stupid. .......and there way is stupid. :D

[leaftye]

While a hanging food bag may be taken by a bear, that doesn't have an immediate effect on safety, and may have none at all.

A few days ago a member here sent me a pm about someone that person knew that got mauled by a black bear while inside a tent. The way I was told, that camper didn't have food inside the tent, but the black bear had come to associate tents and people. If we get rid of that association, we'll all camp more safely in bear country.

[The Ace]

While a hanging food bag may be taken by a bear, that doesn't have an immediate effect on safety, and may have none at all.

A few days ago a member here sent me a pm about someone that person knew that got mauled by a black bear while inside a tent. The way I was told, that camper didn't have food inside the tent, but the black bear had come to associate tents and people. If we get rid of that association, we'll all camp more safely in bear country.

How does an individual particpate in getting rid of the association that you have described?

[leaftye]

How does an individual particpate in getting rid of the association that you have described?

By reading my previous posts, particularly post #38.

[The Ace]

By reading my previous posts, particularly post #38.

So, it’s not one particular method of storing food at night that matters, it’s this specific result of a method: “Give that bear's nose absolutely nothing”. Yet there is more anecdotal evidence that on the GA and NC section of the AT that hanging bag = food than there is that tent = food.

[max patch]

Anyone telling you thier way to do something is the only way and all other ways are stupid........is stupid. .......and there way is stupid. :D

Shouldn't call anyone stupid when you misspell the word "their" in the same sentence. Twice.

[Pedaling Fool]

Odor-proof food containers are a marketing gimmick:rolleyes:

Once you start cooking and eating those smells get all over you stuff. Maybe one day they'll sell an electronic sniffer 10x more powerful than a bear's sense of smell, so that you can clean all your stuff every day .... suckers :D

[leaftye]

So, it’s not one particular method of storing food at night that matters, it’s this specific result of a method: “Give that bear's nose absolutely nothing”. Yet there is more anecdotal evidence that on the GA and NC section of the AT that hanging bag = food than there is that tent = food.


Are backpackers sleeping in their hanging food bags that they have to worry about their safety?

[Mobius]

...backpackers sleeping in their hanging food bags ...

Aren't those guys called "hammockers"? :) (Courtesy of the Far Side comic where the bears are looking at the campers in sleeping bags. The caption simply says "Sandwiches!")

[Runsalone]

Shouldn't call anyone stupid when you misspell the word "their" in the same sentence. Twice.

Damm. Figured If I tried enough ways, one of em' should be right. Now my entire post is completely worthless. (Note the big grin smiley? Not calling anyone "stupid" sincerely.)

Now Im wondering if I spelled sincerely right.

[leaftye]

Aren't those guys called "hammockers"? :) (Courtesy of the Far Side comic where the bears are looking at the campers in sleeping bags. The caption simply says "Sandwiches!")

I've heard that many times before, but I think this is the first time I laughed.

[The Ace]

Are backpackers sleeping in their hanging food bags that they have to worry about their safety?

If I have selected among choices a nighttime food storage method (based on actual field testing, anecdotal information, and significant trail experience in the relevant NC and GA section of the AT, and not just on intangible feelings or unsubstantiated claims that a method is a “joke”) that actually accomplishes the physical safety need that you have (rightly) described by “Giv[ing] that bear’s nose absolutely nothing”, then the method chosen for accomplishing physical safety is irrelevant (ignoring, of course, cost and convenience). However, if the method chosen among alternatives that have been demonstrated to yield equal safety factors also yields a higher risk of having food stolen, then I choose from among those equal physical safety methods that method which best reduces exposure to loss of food.

In your example, tent=food, there was no food in the tent, so the method chosen by that backpacker among alternatives in regards to nighttime food storage for physical safety was irrelevant. The backpacker could have lost his life and also lost his food hanging in a tree (not that the food loss would matter to the dead hiker). However, for nighttime food storage (ignoring the other smell-generating factors that may be present regardless of the physical safety method chosen), if all hikers stored food in odor-proof bags and ran off bears from campsites in the GA and NC section of the AT, the field testing, anecdotal information, and significant trail experience collected in the relevant area indicate that -- over time of course -- there would not be a physical safety issue of a measurable risk attributable to this method of food storage. On the other hand, if all backpackers hung their food from trees in odor-proof food bags, there would also not be a physical safety issue, over time of course. (I suppose that one could test the hypothesis that a bear might have more interest in an odor-proof food bag detected by sense of sight compared to an odor-proof food bag that is hidden away from sight, and therefore, could establish the association of hanging bag = food = human doing the hanging = more food.) One hundred percent of hikers, will of course, do neither. Until there is a demonstrated physical danger in the AT section, (at least to the level of say, dying in a plane crash), logic says that I should sleep with my food and also protect it because there is no demonstrated greater risk to my safety by making this specific choice over an alternative choice.

I have not called, and hope I never will call, anyone stupid for doing something different. Those decisions may be determined more by emotional make-up than by logic; e.g., it is not logical to be afraid of flying; however, some people are.

[The Ace]

Even if they worked as advertised - and they don't - when you cook your meals you are going to transfer food scents from your hands to the outside of the bag.

Which only means that there is more scent on one's hands at the point of transfer than on the outside of one's food bag. If a person is actually that concerned, then he/she should hang his/her scent transferring hands from a tree limb along with the food bag. Or, perhaps more practically, just wash the hands and then wash off the food bag at the same time of washing the food pot and utensil. Certainly not more labor intensive than throwing a bear line over a tree limb. In reality, the potential for the transference of scents from cooking to clothing, body and hair is likely be much greater than to the outside of an OpSak. I seem to get olive oil on just about everything.

[The Ace]

Yes, they are not odor proof, but the odor reduction means the bear needs to get closer to pick up the scent than it would without the bag. For eastern black bears, it's generally still about possession, odor-proof bag or not.

Yes, the evidence appears to support just plain old possesion.

[MuddyWaters]

Its about smell reduction.
The less smell that is emitted by a food bag, the less the chances of animals finding it and disturbing it.
Bears arent the only critters in the woods capable of getting into your food. Mice, rats, raccoons all will too.

When we talk about a bear finding your food, he might find it because he checks this area every night.
Or he might find it because he smells it on the wind 300 yards downwind.
An odor resistant bag, will help with one of these cases.

Just an anecdotal test, but i read where someone put food in an opsak, and hung it in the woods for several months, it wasnt disturbed.

[vamelungeon]

Holy Cow! WE are made out of food- specifically MEAT.

Black bear attacks on the AT are so rare as to be statistically insignificant.

How would a hunter attract any sort of animal? Hang what it likes to eat way up in a tree!

If EVERYONE slept with their food and stopped attracting bears with food in trees and with unattended food, a lot of this food stealing would stop IMHO.

[vamelungeon]

PS- Black bears on the AT don't want to attack humans. The fear of black bears is WAY out of proportion to actual attacks. You are much more likely to be killed by a domestic dog.

[leaftye]

With any type of food bag that is away from the tent, what possible safety hazards are there? So a bear gets it. The hiker cannot be hurt while sleeping far away. Every other food bag in the forest could be taken, and the skills could have a 100% association of hanging bags to food, and might be highly skilled, but their retrieval of the food bag can't hurt its owner.

Whenever there is food in a tent, there's the possible for its scents to attract an animal. You might use an Opsak, and even if you make absolutely sure it's sealed correctly and there are no leaks, it's still possible to unseal it while sleeping with it.

Right now we know bears associate food with tents. There have been two confirmed fatalities of people getting pulled out of their tents by black bears. Then there are the stories of non-fatal attacks. Most of us are probably familiar with the stories about the black bears near Yosemite that tricked some backpackers out of their tents so their buddies could snag the food. There have been stories here, on Wikipedia, told to me in person, in my inbox here of stories about bears reaching into an occupied tent. I'm not so quick to discount those stories. Even if it's discounted to a very low level, that very low level is still higher than zero risk, so the hung food bag is still safer. Even if those events didn't happen on the AT, the similarities are close enough that there's no reason it couldn't happen on the AT. Because some people really had food in their tents, they've learned that food may be inside a tent. As you said, the big question is if a black bear will utilize only visual cues to obtain food. Even then, that theoretical danger to food hangers is tangentially caused by people that had food in their tents.

If you want to argue that sleeping with a food bag is safe enough, you have a good argument, but that's different from an argument about whether it's safer or not.

[leaftye]

Black bear attacks on the AT are so rare as to be statistically insignificant.

Yet a small number is still bigger than zero. This is a black and white comparison. It's zero risk versus an amount of risk that some people think is near zero.


PS- Black bears on the AT don't want to attack humans.

And black bears elsewhere do want to attack humans? Regardless of the desire of the bears, attacks have happened, many of them have been fatal, and two of them have been fatal to backpackers in their tents.

Even if safe is any attack that's not fatal, 2>0 every single time.

[slow mind]

Bears, beets... Battlestar Galactica

[johnnybgood]

Bears have a keen sense of smell that any odors traveling on the wind can attract them a good distance away . Recounting an event where a hiker couple had cooked dinner,(odor producing fish) and had cleaned up their camp afterwards. They then went down to the creek to get water to do dishes and wash up when a huge black bear strolled into camp and began to ravage through their stuff. They had taken care in immediately cleaning cookware used for their meal and not going inside their tent until everything had been cleaned. I was camping a half mile from them and saw the havoc one bear can do when on a mission to get dinner.

[Lone Wolf]

and two of them have been fatal to backpackers in their tents.


where?.....

[leaftye]

where?.....

Why does that matter? Are AT black bears genetically predisposed against doing what other black bears do in similar situations?

[Lone Wolf]

Why does that matter? Are AT black bears genetically predisposed against doing what other black bears do in similar situations?

so it didn't happen on the AT

[Lone Wolf]

Why does that matter? Are AT black bears genetically predisposed against doing what other black bears do in similar situations?

so it didn't happen on the AT

[broken arrow]

did someone say 'hammocker'?

[leaftye]

so it didn't happen on the AT

And that means what?

[Lone Wolf]

And that means what?

that means nobody hiking on the AT has ever been killed by a bear. duh

[Fur Queue]

When you guys talk about sleeping with your food do you keep it in your pack inside the tent?

[Lone Wolf]

When you guys talk about sleeping with your food do you keep it in your pack inside the tent?

sometimes......

[WILLIAM HAYES]

it is a mixed bag I always hang my food and I do it correctly others keep their food bag in their tent

[The Ace]

When you guys talk about sleeping with your food do you keep it in your pack inside the tent?

Sealed in an odor-proof OpSak inserted inside a Z-packs roll-top cuben fiber food bag placed chest high next to my sleeping bag, usually with my nasty clothes drapped over it, not in my pack. On rare occasions, will use as a pillow.

[Fur Queue]

sometimes......

What informs each decision?

[Sarcasm the elf]

Why does that matter? Are AT black bears genetically predisposed against doing what other black bears do in similar situations?

From the data I have seen: Yes, it does make a difference. Most fatal predatory attacks on humans by black bears (and we are talking less than one per year in all of north America, which by definition makes it a statistically insignificant cause of death) happen in remote northern region where young male bears are literally starving to death and desperate enough to attack another predator (humans) in order to survive. It just doesn't happen in the densely populated temperate region that the A.T. traverses. There are simply too many food sources along the trail for a bear exploit before resorting to the risky endeavour of preying on humans.


Further reading:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/11/science/11bears.html

[Lone Wolf]

What informs each decision?

how hungry i am for snacks

[leaftye]

From the data I have seen: Yes, it does make a difference. Most fatal predatory attacks on humans by black bears (and we are talking less than one per year in all of north America, which by definition makes it a statistically insignificant cause of death) happen in remote northern region where young male bears are literally starving to death and desperate enough to attack another predator (humans) in order to survive. It just doesn't happen in the densely populated temperate region that the A.T. traverses. There are simply too many food sources along the trail for a bear exploit before resorting to the risky endeavour of preying on humans.


Further reading:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/11/science/11bears.html

There's a lot of logic in these black bears trying to avoid a fatal confrontation, but if black bears can perform that level of risk analysis, I believe they also believe that that behavior is a long way from simply reaching blindly into a tent. Sadly, with the mass and strength bears have, when combined with a good scare, they can inflict a lot of damage. The non-fatal maulings I've heard about seem to have happened that way. While the bear may not have attempted to hurt a human, an injured human surely means at least one very soon to be deceased bear.

I don't want a damaged tent, an interrupted hike, physical injuries and a dead bear. The best thing I can do to prevent that is to place my food far away from me using proper storage techniques and an odor resistant bag. It's almost no trouble, and I sleep better this way for it.

This made me realize that I haven't heard of an attack on someone cowboy camping or sleeping in a shelter. Perhaps actually seeing a human is enough to scare bears from getting that close, whereas a tent is more like peekaboo. If they can't see you, you're kind of not really there.

[Sarcasm the elf]

There's a lot of logic in these black bears trying to avoid a fatal confrontation, but if black bears can perform that level of risk analysis, I believe they also believe that that behavior is a long way from simply reaching blindly into a tent. Sadly, with the mass and strength bears have, when combined with a good scare, they can inflict a lot of damage. The non-fatal maulings I've heard about seem to have happened that way. While the bear may not have attempted to hurt a human, an injured human surely means at least one very soon to be deceased bear.

I don't want a damaged tent, an interrupted hike, physical injuries and a dead bear. The best thing I can do to prevent that is to place my food far away from me using proper storage techniques and an odor resistant bag. It's almost no trouble, and I sleep better this way for it.

This made me realize that I haven't heard of an attack on someone cowboy camping or sleeping in a shelter. Perhaps actually seeing a human is enough to scare bears from getting that close, whereas a tent is more like peekaboo. If they can't see you, you're kind of not really there.

I dont think that it's a matter of the black bears making a reasoned and logical decision, it's in their nature to avoid direct confrontations with humans (and other predators) and it takes a great level of desperation for them to ignore this instinct.

Beyond saying that I think that you and I are largely on the same page. While I'm perfectly happy with keeping my attended food bag with me in my tent up here in new England, I don't fault anyone for taking precautions. If I were hiking in an area that had a known habituated bear I would likely reasses the situation a little more carefully.

While I do understand that there is some risk involved when hiking in Bear country on the east coast, I really do think that this is one of the most overhyped issues in the trail. The supposed threat that bears pose to us is something that has been ingrained in us culturally and one of the initial fears that almost every new hiker is concerned about. I think you'll agree that the most important reason to safeguard your food isn't to keep you safe from a bear, but to keep the bear safe from humans.

[Hairbear]

These "odor proof" bags are a joke as far as black bears are concerned! Bears are thought to have the best sense of smell on the planet, several times that of dogs. If a bag existed that could keep dogs from smelling the contents, all the bomb/drug/other contraband sniffing dogs would be unemployed, and bears are 7-10 times better at detecting odors. You arent hiding any odors from them.
Would the bag restrict the strength of the odor ,making it not carry as far ?

[bflorac]

I can personally tell you of a bear that had absolutely no fear of humans while in the Smokies. Not even after I hit him in the shoulder with a 4" rock. It is not a fun sight when the bear rises up on two legs to let you know who is boss. The way I look at it, it foolish to keep my food with me to protect it. If there is ANY chance of a not so friendly bear has to choose between me and the food, he can have the food. If I hang the food correctly (aka PCT and away from camp) there is little chance the bear will get it and I'm safer because of it.

[Chaco Taco]

Why does that matter? Are AT black bears genetically predisposed against doing what other black bears do in similar situations?
Because just throwing something out on the internet without backing it up puts out the wrong information. Where is the information?

[Chaco Taco]

There's a lot of logic in these black bears trying to avoid a fatal confrontation, but if black bears can perform that level of risk analysis, I believe they also believe that that behavior is a long way from simply reaching blindly into a tent. Sadly, with the mass and strength bears have, when combined with a good scare, they can inflict a lot of damage. The non-fatal maulings I've heard about seem to have happened that way.
Again, what do you base this off of?? My experience with being attacked by a bear was that he was scoping me out for quite sometime while I was sleeping. He distracted me then went for my food. He was never really aggressive when we were face to face. From some of the scientific research about Black Bears, they are different from many of the other bear species. Washington State University has a bunch of great information about bear

[Fur Queue]

There's a lot of logic in these black bears trying to avoid a fatal confrontation, but if black bears can perform that level of risk analysis, I believe they also believe that that behavior is a long way from simply reaching blindly into a tent. Sadly, with the mass and strength bears have, when combined with a good scare, they can inflict a lot of damage. The non-fatal maulings I've heard about seem to have happened that way.
Again, what do you base this off of?? My experience with being attacked by a bear was that he was scoping me out for quite sometime while I was sleeping. He distracted me then went for my food. He was never really aggressive when we were face to face. From some of the scientific research about Black Bears, they are different from many of the other bear species. Washington State University has a bunch of great information about bear


You were attacked by a bear? Have you written about this anywhere I can look at?

[Chaco Taco]

You were attacked by a bear? Have you written about this anywhere I can look at?
I was asleep in my tent, bear bounced on top of the tent, I sat up, bear ripped through the corner of my tent and "removed" my food bag. I was at Watauga Lake, camping by the lake. There was trash and all sorts of crap strewn all over the place. The tents and coolers were abandoned, which I discovered after the fact. I was not paying attention when we walked into camp. Should have moved further up trail'

[Fur Queue]

I was asleep in my tent, bear bounced on top of the tent, I sat up, bear ripped through the corner of my tent and "removed" my food bag. I was at Watauga Lake, camping by the lake. There was trash and all sorts of crap strewn all over the place. The tents and coolers were abandoned, which I discovered after the fact. I was not paying attention when we walked into camp. Should have moved further up trail'

Wow...scary stuff! Reading through all this I'm thinking a compromise solution may be in order...I'm going to hang my food bag INSIDE my tent.....

[The Ace]

I can personally tell you of a bear that had absolutely no fear of humans while in the Smokies. Not even after I hit him in the shoulder with a 4" rock. It is not a fun sight when the bear rises up on two legs to let you know who is boss. The way I look at it, it foolish to keep my food with me to protect it. If there is ANY chance of a not so friendly bear has to choose between me and the food, he can have the food. If I hang the food correctly (aka PCT and away from camp) there is little chance the bear will get it and I'm safer because of it.

Can you finish the story for us please? Did the bear attack you? Did it get your food? Did you have your food with you? Were you hiking? Cooking? Snoozing? Did the bear come into your tent at nighttime? Did the bear leave? Did the bear choose between you and your food? How do you know that you were safe from attack by this bear because you hang/hung your food?

[gizzy bear]

has there been any alligator attacks on the trail? i hate alligators!!! they are ugly and mean!!! BLEH!!!

[gizzy bear]

and can bears read?? you know...all the statistics and stuff... because i would feel better if i knew they know how they are suppose to behave... :P

[The Ace]

I was asleep in my tent, bear bounced on top of the tent, I sat up, bear ripped through the corner of my tent and "removed" my food bag. I was at Watauga Lake, camping by the lake. There was trash and all sorts of crap strewn all over the place. The tents and coolers were abandoned, which I discovered after the fact. I was not paying attention when we walked into camp. Should have moved further up trail'

So, would you have actually been any safer, if instead you had hung your food, but still stayed at the same spot?
My hypothesis is that the hanging of food bags in sufficient concentrations and in repetition draws more bears into the immediate area of an overnight tent camper and increases the likelihood of bears associating food bags with humans, and therefore, increases the likelihood of a bear approaching a tent at night. (There are other factors, of course.)
My second hypotheses is that if the first hypothesis is correct, then a bear will likely choose a tent of the hiker who has hung his food, but has failed to minimize other bear-attracting scents, over a hiker who has his food in an odor-proof bag in his possession and has also minimized other bear-attracting scents (even though reported incidents continue to be extremely rare). The official position by “authorities” is “hang your food”, not “first and foremost minimize odors that attract bears”. The question in this thread is, is the official position still the correct position? By the way, on your eventful night did you use an odor-proof bag and minimize other bear attracting scents?
One could argue that the assumed safer act of hanging bear bags, among available alternatives, over time has had reverse impact in GA and NC. You mention abandoned tents and coolers and trash as likely drawing in the bear. My hypothesis is that frequent, repetitive hanging of food bags can do the same. In other words if bears have learned that cooler = food, could not bears learn that hanging food bag = cooler. If so, then if a cooler attracts bears to people, so would a food bag. There are other nearby areas of high bear concentration – for example, to the east of the GA and NC section is the Foothills Trail in an area with a high population of black bears, but there are no reports of aggressive bears, and I rarely see hikers hanging food bags (there are bear cables at some of the Burrell’s Ford Campground tent pads).
By the way, thanks for engaging in this conversation with me.

[The Ace]

and can bears read?? you know...all the statistics and stuff... because i would feel better if i knew they know how they are suppose to behave... :P

Perhaps, it would be simpler to have the states pass laws making it illegal for a bear to attack a human. That way, no one would need to carry a concealed weapon or bear spray.

[gizzy bear]

Perhaps, it would be simpler to have the states pass laws making it illegal for a bear to attack a human. That way, no one would need to carry a concealed weapon or bear spray.

that may work.... but you know, there would be those rebellious "thug" bears... but at least they are easily recognizable with their sagging pants and gold teef :D

[Pedaling Fool]

With any type of food bag that is away from the tent, what possible safety hazards are there? So a bear gets it. The hiker cannot be hurt while sleeping far away. Every other food bag in the forest could be taken, and the skills could have a 100% association of hanging bags to food, and might be highly skilled, but their retrieval of the food bag can't hurt its owner.

Whenever there is food in a tent, there's the possible for its scents to attract an animal. You might use an Opsak, and even if you make absolutely sure it's sealed correctly and there are no leaks, it's still possible to unseal it while sleeping with it.

Right now we know bears associate food with tents. There have been two confirmed fatalities of people getting pulled out of their tents by black bears. Then there are the stories of non-fatal attacks. Most of us are probably familiar with the stories about the black bears near Yosemite that tricked some backpackers out of their tents so their buddies could snag the food. There have been stories here, on Wikipedia, told to me in person, in my inbox here of stories about bears reaching into an occupied tent. I'm not so quick to discount those stories. Even if it's discounted to a very low level, that very low level is still higher than zero risk, so the hung food bag is still safer. Even if those events didn't happen on the AT, the similarities are close enough that there's no reason it couldn't happen on the AT. Because some people really had food in their tents, they've learned that food may be inside a tent. As you said, the big question is if a black bear will utilize only visual cues to obtain food. Even then, that theoretical danger to food hangers is tangentially caused by people that had food in their tents.

If you want to argue that sleeping with a food bag is safe enough, you have a good argument, but that's different from an argument about whether it's safer or not.



Yet a small number is still bigger than zero. This is a black and white comparison. It's zero risk versus an amount of risk that some people think is near zero.



And black bears elsewhere do want to attack humans? Regardless of the desire of the bears, attacks have happened, many of them have been fatal, and two of them have been fatal to backpackers in their tents.

Even if safe is any attack that's not fatal, 2>0 every single time.

Geez, you make a lot of wild conclusions based on what, I don't know...

Since you're such the bear expert, at least in anecdotal information, then tell us when bears are going to start associating our backpacks with food?

You say this, "Right now we know bears associate food with tents." Really :confused: Is that universally? How can you make these open-ended statements?

Seems like in Georgia they zoned more in hanging foodbags.

(P.S. I don't have anything against anecdotal information, but one very important part of this information is how trust worthy the information is; I'm not really feeling confident in your sources.)

[Pedaling Fool]

Why does that matter? Are AT black bears genetically predisposed against doing what other black bears do in similar situations?
I don't think (yes I'm assuming here, but so is everyone else...no one really knows) that most attacks happen where the black bear is under more environmental pressures to fatten up for the winter and also to feed after a long hibernation period. There has never been an attack here in Florida.

Black bears have attack people around the areas of the AT, one of them happened when I was hiking, it wasn't on the AT, but that's probably more out of luck. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America

This is the attack:



Elora Petrasek, 6, female

02006-04-13April 13, 2006


Cherokee National Forest, Tennessee (http://www.whiteblaze.net/wiki/Cherokee_National_Forest)

A bear attacked the family at a waterfall near a campground. Petrasek's mother and brother were also injured. The bear was trapped and killed, and an unrelated bear was mistakenly killed.[32] (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/#cite_note-32)[33] (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/#cite_note-cleveBearReturn-33)[34 (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/#cite_note-cbs2006-34)




Notice that the bear attack a small child, where as if you look at the link many bear attacks, not all, but many happen up north, especially Canada. I think it's mostly environmental factors that drive that, i.e. forcing them to take more risks to fatten up for winter and then recover from a long winter hibernation.


BTW, not many of them attack involved tents, a few, but not many and we really don't know if they had food or not. But in the case where this happend it seems like the bear was only wanting the human, not any food bag.



Samuel Evan Ives, 11, male

02007-06-17June 17, 2007

Black

Uinta National Forest, Utah (http://www.whiteblaze.net/wiki/Uinta_National_Forest)

Ives was grabbed from a family tent in American Fork Canyon (http://www.whiteblaze.net/wiki/American_Fork_Canyon), and mauled. State wildlife officials killed the bear, which had entered the campsite the night before.[28] (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/#cite_note-28) Ives' family sued the U.S. Forest Service (http://www.whiteblaze.net/wiki/U.S._Forest_Service) because there was no warning about the bear's presence.[29] (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/#cite_note-stl23Nov2010-29)[30] (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/#cite_note-dailyHerald28Mar2008-30) A judge awarded the family $1.95 million.[31] (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/#cite_note-nyt11May2011-31) It was the first known fatal black bear attack in Utah.





Here's the new article about it http://www.deseretnews.com/article/665194630/Bear-blamed-for-boys-death-in-American-Fork-Canyon-is-killed.html


Another factor, which I don't know, but wonder about is how prevalent is hunting of bears in these areas?

[SouthMark]

Whiteblaze is the wrong place to get bear advice. Too many experts in their own mind.

[Lone Wolf]

Whiteblaze is the wrong place to get bear advice. Too many experts in their own mind.
it's the wrong place to get most advice about most things

[Pedaling Fool]

I don't think (yes I'm assuming here, but so is everyone else...no one really knows) that most attacks happen where the black bear is under more environmental pressures to fatten up for the winter and also to feed after a long hibernation period. There has never been an attack here in Florida.



Boy, I really screwed up that thread, but I just clear one thing up, the rest I believe most will get the gest.

I believe most attacks happen where the bear is under more pressure from environmental factors to fatten up and this forces them to take risks they normally wouldn't.

[Pedaling Fool]

Boy, I really screwed up that thread, but I just clear one thing up, the rest I believe most will get the gest.

I believe most attacks happen where the bear is under more pressure from environmental factors to fatten up and this forces them to take risks they normally wouldn't.

I'll

OK, I'm stupid, I'm outta here :)

[Chaco Taco]

My personal observation is that he would have messed with me regardless of whether I hung my food or not. With the amount of trash and abandoned crap everywhere, Im not surprised. If memory serves me correctly, the bear was tranqued and taken away from Watauga Lake. I still feel bad for the fella. I continue to switch between hanging and sleeping with my food. Im going to work on the bag though. I feel like my wife's Sea to Summit bag is sufficient and Ill probably upgrade from old stuff sacks I usually use. Before this incident, I rarely hung my food. Since this incident, I look for signs of bear in the area and go based on what caretakers often tell me. Luckily, we have Bear Boxes up here more often. When I lived down south, prior to this, always slept with my food, Wak too. Never had any issue. Just pay attention to your surroundings. If you are in a big group of food hangers, especially at a shelter, sleep with it in your tent, and camp away from shelters. This is the sole reason why we try to camp away from tentsites and shelters. If we have to stay at tent sites or tentplatforms, we take the furthest one away or try to get at least a 1/2 mile away while honoring the boundaries.

So, would you have actually been any safer, if instead you had hung your food, but still stayed at the same spot?
My hypothesis is that the hanging of food bags in sufficient concentrations and in repetition draws more bears into the immediate area of an overnight tent camper and increases the likelihood of bears associating food bags with humans, and therefore, increases the likelihood of a bear approaching a tent at night. (There are other factors, of course.)
My second hypotheses is that if the first hypothesis is correct, then a bear will likely choose a tent of the hiker who has hung his food, but has failed to minimize other bear-attracting scents, over a hiker who has his food in an odor-proof bag in his possession and has also minimized other bear-attracting scents (even though reported incidents continue to be extremely rare). The official position by “authorities” is “hang your food”, not “first and foremost minimize odors that attract bears”. The question in this thread is, is the official position still the correct position? By the way, on your eventful night did you use an odor-proof bag and minimize other bear attracting scents?
One could argue that the assumed safer act of hanging bear bags, among available alternatives, over time has had reverse impact in GA and NC. You mention abandoned tents and coolers and trash as likely drawing in the bear. My hypothesis is that frequent, repetitive hanging of food bags can do the same. In other words if bears have learned that cooler = food, could not bears learn that hanging food bag = cooler. If so, then if a cooler attracts bears to people, so would a food bag. There are other nearby areas of high bear concentration – for example, to the east of the GA and NC section is the Foothills Trail in an area with a high population of black bears, but there are no reports of aggressive bears, and I rarely see hikers hanging food bags (there are bear cables at some of the Burrell’s Ford Campground tent pads).
By the way, thanks for engaging in this conversation with me.

[The Ace]

Whiteblaze is the wrong place to get bear advice. Too many experts in their own mind.

No one in this conversation is claiming to be an expert. There is a cordial conversation going on here among several members. One of the participants has been attacked by a bear while in his tent. I have an acquaintance whose image can be seen standing on the wing of the photo of US Air jet sitting in the Hudson River. He is now somewhat reluctant to fly. Does that warrant abusing him?

[The Ace]

it's the wrong place to get most advice about most things

Perhaps it is like hiking the GA and NC section; one has to dodge bear dung in order to see beautiful things.

[The Ace]

Perhaps it is like hiking the GA and NC section; one has to dodge bear dung in order to see beautiful things.

Perhaps, that was impolite; I apologize for my remark.

[Lone Wolf]

Perhaps, that was impolite; I apologize for my remark.

that kinda stuff doesn't bother me. i open myself up for it :)

[Lone Wolf]

Perhaps, that was impolite; I apologize for my remark.

that kinda stuff doesn't bother me. i open myself up for it :)

[The Ace]

Another factor, which I don't know, but wonder about is how prevalent is hunting of bears in these areas?


I wonder about the impact, also. There is seasonal bear hunting north of the GA bear-problem section. There is also seasonal hunting allowed on the Foothills Trail.

[Runsalone]

Whiteblaze is the wrong place to get bear advice. Too many experts in their own mind.


it's the wrong place to get most advice about most things

;) I think you guys nailed it. Good place to get your spelling critiqued, however. :p

[HikerMom58]

that kinda stuff doesn't bother me. i open myself up for it :)

Yeah, you do!

As far as bear info/advice goes I read everyone's experiences, (thanks for sharing , everyone) pay attention to what real bear experts say, but most importantly use my common sense. I put it all together with common sense. I think the rangers etc... aren't willing to find out what happens, in the long term, when a bear loses it's fear of humans. They seem to want to banish the bear that shows no fear even though they don't "attack" a human.

I think the lure for the bear is food itself and food odor. It's not hard to understand. So, it doesn't matter whether the food is hanging or not. A bear that has lost it's fear of humans will go after your food in your tent.

It's a never ending battle, we can tell how much of a failure we are, as a whole, by how bear behavior changes towards humans. A person reporting that throwing a rock at a bear did NOTHING to scare off the bear? Humm..... :-?

[stevegb]

Would appreciate comments on the effectiveness of this bear bag method. Thanks!

20714

[The Ace]

20715

I would ask Mr. Bullock if it comes with a money-back guarantee.

[MuddyWaters]

Would appreciate comments on the effectiveness of this bear bag method. Thanks!

20714

Will work fine until a bear comes along that knows to chew thru the rope. If either end is chewed thru, the food goes to ground.
Mice might also have a field day with a low angle cord



There is a reason people avoid tie-ing off to trees , and use the PCT method.

When done correctly, the branch a PCT hang goes over is at a point that will not support even a bear cubs weight stable enough for it to go out there and spend time to chew thru the cord. It should go over a 1-2" diameter branch, 10' or more out from the trunk, and be > 6" at the base at trunk so bear cant chew thru it.

Finding that branch, 20-25 ft off the ground, is what is hardest about hanging food.

[vamelungeon]

Whiteblaze is the wrong place to get bear advice. Too many experts in their own mind.
I'm not an expert. I do know that more people have been killed by other people on the AT than bears. Probably more by lightning, hypothermia, heart attacks, falls and overdoses. This fear of bears must be a learned thing, and I guess I just never learned it. I think it's way overblown. While the number of fatal attacks isn't zero, it isn't much above zero.

[Sarcasm the elf]

I'm not an expert. I do know that more people have been killed by other people on the AT than bears. Probably more by lightning, hypothermia, heart attacks, falls and overdoses. This fear of bears must be a learned thing, and I guess I just never learned it. I think it's way overblown. While the number of fatal attacks isn't zero, it isn't much above zero.

It is definitely a learned thing, and more importantly it's something that has to be unlearned by most people that are new to the trail. Strike up a conversation about backpacking with a non hiker and they will most likely bring it up in the first two minutes.

I work with a lot of people from NYC and Long Island, most conversations about my trips on the A.T. Usually go like this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45c9t6e-OmU&sns=em

[bflorac]

Can you finish the story for us please? Did the bear attack you? Did it get your food? Did you have your food with you? Were you hiking? Cooking? Snoozing? Did the bear come into your tent at nighttime? Did the bear leave? Did the bear choose between you and your food? How do you know that you were safe from attack by this bear because you hang/hung your food?

Sitting on stump at camp eating of all things a SlimJim, boots, socks off and relaxing. I heard a noise behind me and found myself about 3' from the nose of a bear. I jumped, he jumped a little. Ok, so I know what got is attention, must have been my smelly boots ... Anyway, shelter was one of the last few in Smokes with a flimsy cage on the front so I took cover there and woke up the hiker that was taking an afternoon nap. So we attempted to open the cage and run at him lots of noise and run him off. Which he did, but not without grabbing one of my socks (sitting out drying not off my foot!). We held our ground in the shelter even while we could see him watching just from 20' way under the brush. Shortly a few more hiker came and we brought them into the shelter as well. So the next time the bear came out, we did the same with similar results but this time he took one of my boots (hence my trail name One Boot). He sat there gnawing on my boot and rolling it back and forth in his big paws with a look like he was saying 'want this boot? Come get it!. The good news was that after about 10 minutes he got tired of the boot and wondered away (but not out of view). I decided that he could keep the sock but taking the boot had crossed the line and I wanted it back! So when he was about 50' away, with one eye him, I headed out to get the boot. Just as I was about to grab it he saw me, raised up on 2 legs, made some noise and I took off running without the boot. I did not look back so I don't know how long he gave chase. We gave up on the boot for a while but after an hour or so, a number of other hikers crowded into the small shelter while the bear continued to wonder. Finally a hiker arrived who had some mace. It was not bear spray but it was all we had. So with him and his mace, me with an hiking pole and a third hiker with a big knife we managed to sneak back and grab my boot while he had slipped away for a moment. The bear continued to wonder around, sliding in and out of brush like a ninja (It is amazing how quite they can be). At one time we grabbed a 4’ rock and hit him directly on the shoulder, he just looked at us and said “Is that all you got?”. None of our attempts to ward him off worked for more than a few minutes. We did manage to provoke him enough (when he was right in front of the cage) that he got up on two legs and bounce on the ground (I have since learned that this is a called a “bluff”). At one time, he actually laid down next to the shelter. We could hear him sniffing around back at the roof edge. Knowing that the metal cage was only held on by bailing wire there was little sleep that night. One of hikers went out to take a pee in the AM only to be chased back to the shelter. So, after packing up we broke up in groups an slid out of camp a group at a time when he was out of sight. So that night, yes, I slept with my food (I was NOT going out to hang it), but it gave me a lot of respect for the bears.

Photo of bear (http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/1/9/5/2/4/dscn1870.jpg)

[rocketsocks]

Great story and great picture. Yes it is funny just how stealthy wild animals can be when there in stealth mode...spooky quite!

[vamelungeon]

It is definitely a learned thing, and more importantly it's something that has to be unlearned by most people that are new to the trail. Strike up a conversation about backpacking with a non hiker and they will most likely bring it up in the first two minutes.

I work with a lot of people from NYC and Long Island, most conversations about my trips on the A.T. Usually go like this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45c9t6e-OmU&sns=em
Hahaha!!! Awesome!

[Chaco Taco]

nice story, but did the bear really say "Is that all you got?" The bear I encountered said, "gimme that food bag bitch"


Sitting on stump at camp eating of all things a SlimJim, boots, socks off and relaxing. I heard a noise behind me and found myself about 3' from the nose of a bear. I jumped, he jumped a little. Ok, so I know what got is attention, must have been my smelly boots ... Anyway, shelter was one of the last few in Smokes with a flimsy cage on the front so I took cover there and woke up the hiker that was taking an afternoon nap. So we attempted to open the cage and run at him lots of noise and run him off. Which he did, but not without grabbing one of my socks (sitting out drying not off my foot!). We held our ground in the shelter even while we could see him watching just from 20' way under the brush. Shortly a few more hiker came and we brought them into the shelter as well. So the next time the bear came out, we did the same with similar results but this time he took one of my boots (hence my trail name One Boot). He sat there gnawing on my boot and rolling it back and forth in his big paws with a look like he was saying 'want this boot? Come get it!. The good news was that after about 10 minutes he got tired of the boot and wondered away (but not out of view). I decided that he could keep the sock but taking the boot had crossed the line and I wanted it back! So when he was about 50' away, with one eye him, I headed out to get the boot. Just as I was about to grab it he saw me, raised up on 2 legs, made some noise and I took off running without the boot. I did not look back so I don't know how long he gave chase. We gave up on the boot for a while but after an hour or so, a number of other hikers crowded into the small shelter while the bear continued to wonder. Finally a hiker arrived who had some mace. It was not bear spray but it was all we had. So with him and his mace, me with an hiking pole and a third hiker with a big knife we managed to sneak back and grab my boot while he had slipped away for a moment. The bear continued to wonder around, sliding in and out of brush like a ninja (It is amazing how quite they can be). At one time we grabbed a 4’ rock and hit him directly on the shoulder, he just looked at us and said “Is that all you got?”. None of our attempts to ward him off worked for more than a few minutes. We did manage to provoke him enough (when he was right in front of the cage) that he got up on two legs and bounce on the ground (I have since learned that this is a called a “bluff”). At one time, he actually laid down next to the shelter. We could hear him sniffing around back at the roof edge. Knowing that the metal cage was only held on by bailing wire there was little sleep that night. One of hikers went out to take a pee in the AM only to be chased back to the shelter. So, after packing up we broke up in groups an slid out of camp a group at a time when he was out of sight. So that night, yes, I slept with my food (I was NOT going out to hang it), but it gave me a lot of respect for the bears.

Photo of bear (http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/1/9/5/2/4/dscn1870.jpg)

[SouthMark]

www.bear.org

[The Ace]

I am intrigued by your comment on how quiet the bear was when he first approached. That was a thought that occurred to me sometime later after my encounter, on exiting my tent, with a bear sitting about 25 or so feet in front of me and casually observing me: how did the bear get that close without me hearing him? I definitely heard him on his exit though when he learned that I could deliver rocks faster than Buddy the Elf can deliver snowballs. Poor creature probably just wanted a Slim Jim.

[SunnyWalker]

I personally think anyone who sleeps with their food, when the option to hang it is available . . . . . well, I'm moving my camp!!!!!!!!!

[Spirit Bear]

Whatever you do don't put some peanut butter on your nuts, the black bears in NC and GA love nutty peanut butter.

Seriously, hang your food for peace of mind, sleep with it to protect it. I have yet to hear of anyone losing their food bag when it is under their head as a pillow.

However no way I can sleep knowing that my food is under my head, so I hang it using the PCT method, the key is to make sure when the bag goes up the line that it is actually 10 feet off the ground and 8 feet from the tree.

[shaman.in.a.yurt]

I slept with my food every night (shelters included) in '11 on my way North. Never once did anything go after it, mice included. A bear doesn't want to fight a dirty/tough thru-hiker for food, too risky. They want an easy meal, such as shaking bear cables til your food back tears/drops.

This is in black bear country, out in brown bear country is a different story. I always tell people black bears are just like big dumb dogs...

[swjohnsey]

In the history of the AT has there ever been a document attack by a black bear?

[Bear Cables]

It's about possession with black bears.

Really? Do you really want to have that conversation with a Bear?I can hear it now,"You: all right now bear, you know it's my food so just back off. Bear: ***? (and takes your food anyway)You: luck to be unhurt at best and injured at worst. I might ruffle some feathers here but if you sleep with your food or keep food in your tent then your are using very risky behavior and to this point have been nothing but lucky. As to the posters question...learn to hang your food bag properly and if you are not good at hanging or lazy then carry a canister or ursak.

[MuddyWaters]

In the history of the AT has there ever been a document attack by a black bear?

I hear documents enrage them.
They especially hate regulations requiring bear cannisters.

[Sarcasm the elf]

I hear documents enrage them.
They especially hate regulations requiring bear cannisters.

Well done, I really needed a laugh tonight!

With that said, I am going to call it a night, see you all tomorrow.

[swjohnsey]

I take it there have been no bear attacks on the AT then.