View Full Version : NiMH - Lithium Battery Question
So after reading about the different Solar Power Chargingsystems, I decided on the Goal Zero Mobile Kit because I need to be able tocharge proprietary batteries and AA’s/AAA’s. Goal Zero specifically states to use only NiMH batteries in theircharger (Guide 10 is their battery pack part of the kit). NiMH batteries weigh more than LithiumRechargables. So, I sent this email toGoal Zero………….
“Hi, Your website states to use only NiMH batteries only inthe Guide 10. The downside to only being able to use NiMH is that they areheavy. One of your AA batteries weighs 1.0 ounces. What would happen if I usedLithium rechargeables in the Guide 10? Is there a safety aspect? Would theGuide 10 charge aftermarket batteres like the Energizer Lithiums?”
Their response…….
“Thank you for contacting us with your question. The Guide10 Plus was designed and engineered to work best with NiMH batteries. We cannotrecommend other types of batteries. We haven’t done extensive test with otherbatteries, so we do not know what the outcome would be if you used those.”
So, it is clear as mud I’d say, Lol.
What is your insight to this???????????
Thanks,
SMSP
NiMH batteries charge to 1.52V, give or take a couple hundredths of a volt. Lithium ion batteries charge to 4.22V, give or take a couple hundredths of a volt.
While the voltage difference might seem to explain it all, it's not the entire story.
Lithium ion chargers can stop based solely on voltage. NiMH chargers can do the same, but that's the sign of a bad charger. Smarter and safer chargers watch for an abrupt voltage change that indicates a complete charge, and better chargers utilize a faster charge current because the termination indication is stronger and easier for the charger to recognize.
I assume your proprietary lithium ion battery is of the flat variety? I'm actually getting the final parts today to allow me to charge those batteries with an ultralight compact charger. Let me know if you want to know more. I might start a thread in the ultralight forum either way, but I'll be more likely to do it if there's interest.
kayak karl
03-28-2013, 13:09
NiMH batteries charge to 1.52V, give or take a couple hundredths of a volt. Lithium ion batteries charge to 4.22V, give or take a couple hundredths of a volt.
While the voltage difference might seem to explain it all, it's not the entire story.
Lithium ion chargers can stop based solely on voltage. NiMH chargers can do the same, but that's the sign of a bad charger. Smarter and safer chargers watch for an abrupt voltage change that indicates a complete charge, and better chargers utilize a faster charge current because the termination indication is stronger and easier for the charger to recognize.
I assume your proprietary lithium ion battery is of the flat variety? I'm actually getting the final parts today to allow me to charge those batteries with an ultralight compact charger. Let me know if you want to know more. I might start a thread in the ultralight forum either way, but I'll be more likely to do it if there's interest.
i understood him to be talking about AA and AAA. do they charge to 4+ volts also?
Slo-go'en
03-28-2013, 13:20
AA and AAA lithium batteries CAN NOT be recharged. Attempting to do so could result in explosion or fire and possible personal injury.
Rechargable AA and AAA batteries are typically the NiMH type, which have the disadvantage of having a lower terminal voltage and a fairly high self discharge rate which gets worse at wamer temps.
Re-chargable Li-ion batteries use a slightly different chemistry and have a nominal terminal voltage of 3.6V. A special charger is required for these batteries and is usually built into the device the battery is used in. Failure to use a charger designed for the perticular battery can also result in fire or explosion. There is a lot of energy packed into those little things amd lithium isn't the most stable element around - which makes it good for batteries, but a little dangerous too.
A little background.
I do use lithium ion and nimh in my flashlights. A few flashlights can use both types of batteries, but most can't.
I'm also putting together a small usb charger that will recharge lithium ion flashlight batteries and the lithium ion battery in my cell phone. I carry spare internal cell phone batteries on some trips, so I really wanted a small charger that could charge the spare depleted batteries while I was walking around trail towns with my cell phone using a charged battery. I'll use the same charger to charge my flashlight battery.
Would theGuide 10 charge aftermarket batteres like the Energizer Lithiums?”
Slo-go'en's response made me go back and realize I missed this. Energizer Lithiums are not rechargeable. Full stop.
The lithium batteries that are rechargeable are lithium ion batteries. Actually, there are different formulations of rechargeable lithium batteries that go to 4.2 volts, but I'm not entirely sure that they should all be called lithium "ion" batteries. Some also charge to 3.6 volts, but that's another beast.
Energizer Lithium batteries are 1.5 volts. Proprietary rechargeable batteries like those found in cell phones are generally lithium ion or lithium polymer batteries that recharge to 4.2 volts...they might also be called 3.7 volt batteries for reasons I hope not to explain.
i understood him to be talking about AA and AAA. do they charge to 4+ volts also?
NiMH AA and AAA batteries cannot be charged to 4+ volts. Bad fiery things would happen long before reaching 4 volts. 4 volts could only be achieved in a battery pack with multiple nimh cells.
There is a lithium ion rechargeable battery called the 14500. The first two digits is the diameter of the battery, and the second two digits is the length of the battery, so 14 millimeters think, and 50 millimeters long. Because this is a lithium ion battery, it gets charged to 4.2 volts. Some flashlights are capable of using either AA or 14500 batteries, but I suspect most would quickly get killed with the voltage and current a 14500 would provide.
I think there's a lithium ion equivalent to the AAA battery, but it's not something I personally use.
NiMH batteries charge to 1.52V, give or take a couple hundredths of a volt. Lithium ion batteries charge to 4.22V, give or take a couple hundredths of a volt.
While the voltage difference might seem to explain it all, it's not the entire story.
Lithium ion chargers can stop based solely on voltage. NiMH chargers can do the same, but that's the sign of a bad charger. Smarter and safer chargers watch for an abrupt voltage change that indicates a complete charge, and better chargers utilize a faster charge current because the termination indication is stronger and easier for the charger to recognize.
I assume your proprietary lithium ion battery is of the flat variety? I'm actually getting the final parts today to allow me to charge those batteries with an ultralight compact charger. Let me know if you want to know more. I might start a thread in the ultralight forum either way, but I'll be more likely to do it if there's interest.
If your building a charger to charge the LI batteries I would be interested and seeing that circuit. The issue with charging these batteries is that chargers are designed in the cell phones to only charge to about 95 percent. 100 percent charge will shorten the life of the battery. I have used the bump method of charging my phones because I cared less about the batteries total life than I did about the longevity of the charge. However there is a limit to how many times I bump a battery. If a charger does not have a shut off or limit to it's charging system it might severely damage the battery. I'm sure I'm not telling you something you don't already know. That's why I'm very interested in what you are doing with the charger.
I'm not actually building the circuit. I wish! I'll explain it a little.
What I'm doing is very simple, but I haven't seen the charger used, or anything like it applied to what we'd use it for.
The charger comes from Tindie. I like that it's very compact and has a plug.
https://tindie.com/shops/Rager/liponano-1/
Today I should get cables with the JST plug, and alligator clips. The clips will be used to attach to the contacts of my cell phone battery. I'll also put magnets on the clips so I can recharge tubular lithium ion batteries.
The first few times I use this charger will be outside so that nothing serious happens if the charger uses too much current or doesn't stop charging. I'll check the voltage during charging and at termination to make sure the charger doesn't charge beyond 4.24 volts. Ideally it'll stop a little closer, but above, 4.2 volts.
I expect the compact charger setup, from Apple usb charger, through this usb battery charger to the clips to weigh under an ounce. That's my goal.
There are other usb chargers. Cottonpickers makes some nice fully assembled chargers that are bigger and heavier, but still very small and probably very light. There's an unbranded board sold by several vendors on ebay too.
Slo-go'en
03-28-2013, 19:55
USB chargers simply generate the standard 5 volts available from a USB port. That plugs into a device which uses the 5 volts to charge the battery. There is an additional circuit between the 5 volt supply and the battery internal to the device to control the charging.
One of the main considerations is charging current. Too much current and the battery can over heat and that is not a good thing. Some chargers can monitor the battery temperature and control the charging rate in order to get the fastest possible charge time. Most simply limit the current to a save level for the battery in question, based on it's capacity.
It gets all very technical and complicated so its best not to fool with it unless you know what your doing. There is a whole selection of Intergrated Circuit chips designed to do the charging chores which are simple to use, but they are all very tiny parts and need half a dozen additional pieces to make work.
I should have used better vocabulary in my earlier posts. I'm talking about a USB battery charger that's separate from a USB charger. Did you check out the link for the charger I'm using? It has a data sheet linked on the product page that goes into great depth about the chip used. I don't fully understand it, but what I get is more than good enough for me. If it wasn't, and knowing more was a requirement, I shouldn't be using any electronics more complicated than an incandescent light bulb.
I could test the charging current, but I won't. I'll test this outside. If it explodes and/or catches fire where I'll be testing it, then it will be harmless aside from a little air pollution unless it happens to blow up in the few seconds I'll be looking at the status lights.
I do appreciate your concern though. It's my fault for poor wording.
Slo-go'en
03-28-2013, 20:39
Okay, the link worked this time - it crashed IE8 the first time I tried it.
Yes, that is want you want and will do the trick. It's the same charger chip I've used in some of the products I've designed.
Your feedback about that chip is very much appreciated. I should get offline and start soldering so I can actually start testing this charger and use the flashlight I mentioned in another thread (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?93891-catastophic-LED-headlight-failure).
SMSP
Post 4 has the correct answer.
To explain it another way, a camera or GPS that takes 1.2 to 1.7v standard AA or AAA will not work with the 3.8-4.4v LiIon AA SIZED batteries.
The SIZE is the same the voltage is totally different so if your charger could handle the two it is irrelevant because your gear will not handle it.
I suggest you use Sanyo Eneloop in your Goal Zero charger.
It's now Panasonic Eneloop. It's the same battery, but I bring it up because some Eneloop display stands are using "Panasonic" in huge letters and "Eneloop" in small letters. Before it was "Eneloop" in huge letters. I used to refer to them only by "Eneloop", but now that might not be good enough.
Thanks for that.Panasonic (and others) already used to sell the Sanyo made Eneloop under their own label, now Sanyo is part of Panasonic so I guess the brand will slowly fade away.
Incidentally the battery business was the main reason for Pana to buy Sanyo however Sanyo also makes cameras for many known brands and the founder of Pana was the brother in law of the founder of Sanyo so there were already family ties there.
Since this is the electronic forum, just to clarify the above, Panasonic recently sold the Sanyo camera division (Sanyo DI) to an investment company.Makes sense because this avoids competitors such as Olympus/Nikon/Pentax buying cameras from a Panasonic owned company.
Thanks for the responses! Although above my knowledge and skill set for electronics, I definitelygot the information I needed.
When I initially said Energizer Lithium batteries, I wasreferring to the rechargeable type, which I thought existed in the Energizerbattery packs at Wal-Mart and such. TheEnergizer Rechargeable Batteries that are sold commonly at Wal-Mart and suchare NiMH, for some reason, I thought those were Lithium rechargeable batteries. Anyway, I know enough about electronics toget me in trouble. Hence, the reason Istarted a post on this subject matter.
Looks like I will stick with the Energizer NiMH batteries thatare commonly sold via Wal-Mart and take the minimal weight penalty for such.
Again, thanks for responses, which most definitely clarifiedthat I should not charge rechargeable LI batteries in the Goal Zero charger.
SMSP
I normally use energizer NiMH on thru-hikes since 2009. Yes they are heavier then lithium batteries, but since I recharge them from town to town, I dont need to carry spares since I know they are topped off for each section. With a lithium battery, you are usually guessing when they need to be replaced and end up carrying spares which kills the weight savings. There is also the environmental cost, if you care about such things. I have an USB charger for AA/AAA that weighs ~2.4oz that I can use my cell phone's USB wall charger to plug into or into a computer if available in town. Takes a few hours instead of the 15minutes that I get from my charger I use at home, but that charger weighs more.
So after reading about the different Solar Power Chargingsystems, I decided on the Goal Zero Mobile Kit because I need to be able tocharge proprietary batteries and AA’s/AAA’s. Goal Zero specifically states to use only NiMH batteries in theircharger (Guide 10 is their battery pack part of the kit). NiMH batteries weigh more than LithiumRechargables. So, I sent this email toGoal Zero………….
“Hi, Your website states to use only NiMH batteries only inthe Guide 10. The downside to only being able to use NiMH is that they areheavy. One of your AA batteries weighs 1.0 ounces. What would happen if I usedLithium rechargeables in the Guide 10? Is there a safety aspect? Would theGuide 10 charge aftermarket batteres like the Energizer Lithiums?”
Their response…….
“Thank you for contacting us with your question. The Guide10 Plus was designed and engineered to work best with NiMH batteries. We cannotrecommend other types of batteries. We haven’t done extensive test with otherbatteries, so we do not know what the outcome would be if you used those.”
So, it is clear as mud I’d say, Lol.
What is your insight to this???????????
Thanks,
SMSP
I just got the Nomad 7 / Guide 10 combo. I'm still testing it. But an initial observation is this:
The Guide 10 battery pack weighs 6.15 oz on my scale. When fully charged by plug or sun, it recharges my iPhone 5 100% only, or two 50 -> 100% recharges, before it is out of juice.
I also have a New Trent iMirror 6000 mAh rechargeable Lithium ion - based unit that weighs 6.2 oz that from a full charge will give my iPhone 240% recharges. I have found that that I can use this with the Nomad 7 solar panel just fine (need a USB to micro USB cable, but I already had that). This combination is what I will bring if I am actually planning on carrying the Nomad 7 with me. I do not need the flexibility of using the AA or AAA batteries from the Guide 10. I may just decide to sell it as I'm not sure when I would use it at this point.
MindyCook
05-22-2013, 09:25
A little background.
I do use lithium ion and nimh in my flashlights. A few flashlights can use both types of batteries, but most can't.
I'm also putting together a small usb charger that will recharge lithium ion flashlight batteries and the lithium ion battery in my cell phone. I carry spare internal cell phone batteries on some trips, so I really wanted a small charger that could charge the spare depleted batteries while I was walking around trail towns with my cell phone using a charged battery. I'll use the same charger to charge my flashlight battery.
Slo-go'en's response made me go back and realize I missed this. Energizer Lithiums are not rechargeable. Full stop.
The lithium batteries that are rechargeable are lithium ion batteries. Actually, there are different formulations of rechargeable lithium batteries that go to 4.2 volts, but I'm not entirely sure that they should all be called lithium "ion" batteries. Some also charge to 3.6 volts, but that's another beast.
Energizer Lithium batteries are 1.5 volts. Proprietary rechargeable batteries like those found in cell phones are generally lithium ion or lithium polymer batteries that recharge to 4.2 volts...they might also be called 3.7 volt batteries for reasons I hope not to explain.
NiMH AA and AAA batteries cannot be charged to 4+ volts. Bad fiery things would happen long before reaching 4 volts. 4 volts could only be achieved in a battery pack with multiple nimh cells.
There is a lithium ion rechargeable battery called the 14500. The first two digits is the diameter of the battery, and the second two digits is the length of the battery, so 14 millimeters think, and 50 millimeters long. Because this is a lithium ion battery, it gets charged to 4.2 volts. Some flashlights are capable of using either AA or 14500 batteries, but I suspect most would quickly get killed with the voltage and current a 14500 would provide.
I think there's a lithium ion equivalent to the AAA battery, but it's not something I personally use.
lithium batteries have shown nice results. Even I am using them for my flashlights and even some other appliances. With rising blast accidents of batteries, the main concern is about safety of users.
MindyCook
05-23-2013, 05:20
A little background.
I do use lithium ion and nimh in my flashlights. A few flashlights can use both types of batteries, but most can't.
I'm also putting together a small usb charger that will recharge lithium ion flashlight (http://www.robustbuy.com/led-lighting-gadgets-led-flashlights-c-505_1027_730.html) batteries and the lithium ion battery in my cell phone. I carry spare internal cell phone batteries on some trips, so I really wanted a small charger that could charge the spare depleted batteries while I was walking around trail towns with my cell phone using a charged battery. I'll use the same charger to charge my flashlight battery.
Slo-go'en's response made me go back and realize I missed this. Energizer Lithiums are not rechargeable. Full stop.
The lithium batteries that are rechargeable are lithium ion batteries. Actually, there are different formulations of rechargeable lithium batteries that go to 4.2 volts, but I'm not entirely sure that they should all be called lithium "ion" batteries. Some also charge to 3.6 volts, but that's another beast.
Energizer Lithium batteries are 1.5 volts. Proprietary rechargeable batteries like those found in cell phones are generally lithium ion or lithium polymer batteries that recharge to 4.2 volts...they might also be called 3.7 volt batteries for reasons I hope not to explain.
NiMH AA and AAA batteries cannot be charged to 4+ volts. Bad fiery things would happen long before reaching 4 volts. 4 volts could only be achieved in a battery pack with multiple nimh cells.
There is a lithium ion rechargeable battery called the 14500. The first two digits is the diameter of the battery, and the second two digits is the length of the battery, so 14 millimeters think, and 50 millimeters long. Because this is a lithium ion battery, it gets charged to 4.2 volts. Some flashlights are capable of using either AA or 14500 batteries, but I suspect most would quickly get killed with the voltage and current a 14500 would provide.
I think there's a lithium ion equivalent to the AAA battery, but it's not something I personally use.
lithium batteries have shown nice results. Even I am using them for my flashlights and even some other appliances. With rising blast accidents of batteries, the main concern is about safety of users.
WHat are your views guys about blasting batteries?
WHat are your views guys about blasting batteries?
Mind explaining what you mean by "blasting batteries"?