Shelter mice

[Tree Nerd]

If you have to stay in a shelter, what are the best ways to prevent mice from chewing through all your stuff? Is this mainly food related problem with a simple answer of bear bagging your food? I've heard about people bringing along a mouse trap or two?

[The Cleaner]

On one occasion I awoke to find had a hole the size of a quarter in a pretty new down bag.I was the only one in the shelter at that time.You might check the shelter register (if there is one) to see about recent mouse and other animal activity.If there are several staying with you,that should lessen your chances of being a victim.Most shelters have mice because thoughtless,selfish,stupid,lazy hikers have left uneaten food and used clothing or other stuff to help the mice make the shelters their home.Follow LNT will help reduce the problem for others.Forget the mouse trap and leave some rat poison hidden in a place where nothing but mice will get to it:eek:.I know most here do not approve of this but I do not approve of those who choose to leave their trash and other stuff either:(....

[MuddyWaters]

They will nibble on anything thats:

1) food
2) potentional nesting material
3) salty from sweat

Which covers just about everything you have. If it doesnt fall into one of those 3 categories, it probably is containing something that does, so they will chew thru that too.

Food is cheaper to replace, than clothing and gear. They are especially fond of wool and sweat soaked pack materials

[The Cleaner]

Avoid shelters if possible.Set up your shelter several yards away if you want to hang out with others hikers and or to cook and use the picnic table.Hang your pack a few feet off of the ground with rope from a tree.....Hikers who choose to hike the trail and just use shelters are in for a rude awakening in several subjects....

[Tree Nerd]

I dont plan on using shelters very much, but that may change as my hike goes on.....Im just looking for mice advice, I would hate to wake to a hole in my pack or other equipment.

[Tipi Walter]

Avoid shelters....

Amen. End of discussion. Any backpacker who's going out in the woods to live in the woods and to carry a home on his back should avoid shelters just as he or she would avoid bailing off the trail every night to hit a motel room. There's not a whole lot of difference anyway. Why would any normal healthy human being go on a backpacking trip and instead of sleeping in the woods depend on rat-box car-ports for their shelter?

[TACKLE]

I had no problems w/mice. I always hung my entire pack either from a tree or those tuna can devices in the shelters.

[The Cleaner]

Many years ago I was staying at Tri-Corner Knob shelter in the Smokies.When I put my boots on in the morning I felt something squishy in one boot.I removed it I found that a mouse had stashed left-over ramen noodles in the heel area.One reason for avoiding shelters and another reason to either eat every bit of food,burn in a very hot fire or put in trash bag to pack out.....

[Martymart]

had a snack bag of gorp that i forgot to bear bag in my pack one night, and i was awoken to the crinkling of plastic and then a few seconds of silence then i could hear and feel a small fury of feet running down the side of my sleeping bag and then id hear a small thunk and it would repeat this pattern every 20-30 seconds. Little guy had eaten right through the side of my pack and gotten it mouthful by mouthful. only run in ive had with them

[RodentWhisperer]

Speaking as the RodentWhisperer, I'd say its more fair to simply avoid the shelters and let the mice go about their business. They are lucky if they live a full year, so why deprive them?

But if you are looking to spend a night inside a shelter, I'd recommend using the "tuna can devices" Tackle mentions. Bag up all your food, sweaty clothes, and scented HBAs. Open your pack's pockets too, as that will prevent mice from knawing their way into them.

Mice are especially fond of salts, and have a desire for foods with calcium and magnesium (think cheese). Their sense of smell is finite enough that a poorly cleaned cook pot left from an evening's mac n' cheese might catch some attention. The mice would probably lick the pot clean if they were given the chance. I've had friends have the bit valves on their water bladders "stolen" by marmots (probably in search of salts, but maybe attracted by the sugary smell leftover from the day's energy drinks) so it's possible mice would go after them, too.

Even with all that, there's still the chance a mouse will go after your bag (for nest materials), your boots (for the residues inside), your packed clothing (again, for the residues and/or nest materials)... even your head (if your hair smells attractive to them). The tuna cans might not stop a determined (if not desperately hungry) mouse from finding a way down to your food bag. The bottom line: keep the stuff the mice want out of their reach, but there are no guarantees.

[swjohnsey]

Carry a mouse trap. With a little dab of peanut butter you can get a tasty morsel to add to the pot, hair, guts and all.

[Wise Old Owl]

Bring an owl for $5000 .. no they don't work out as sherpas...

Ok that was based on the earlier thread on some idiot that posted on ebay

serious pack a black racer... and a trap with peanut butter is amateur. Sesame oil is KING!

[bflorac]

1) Keep you pack clean of food (as best you can)
2) Remove ALL food at night (and hang it away from shelter)
3) Open up all the pockets in the pack. If there is no food, they won't stay long. I'd rather have them wonder through the pack rather than chew a hole.
4) Be aware of where you hang your pack. Mice can get anywhere if they want but don't make it easy for them. Hanging from a cord is usually better than a wall. The cans on the cords help but will not stop a determined mouse. All you have to be is in a better place than the guy next to you! (But I'm not saying to stuff open food in their pack!)
5) As you go through the pack in the AM be aware you might have a mouse jump out. Just ignore it.
6) Check shoes in AM. Mice like to store things there. Also, while you are at it, check for spiders/slugs or other critters.
7) Often mice are looking for something warm. Sleep head out so they don't crawl over your face.
8) If you leave some (unused) TP out, they will go there instead because they use it for bedding and value warmth over food. I have no real proof this works but I have seen TP all chewed up in the AM. Just saying.

[Grampie]

The mice in the shelters down south are only a problem until the snakes come out of hibernation. Than the snakes eat the mice and they are not a problem in the shelters any more.

[AllenIsbell]

Someone left this at the Woods Hole shelter:

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh282/Iam99x/FBAF5D4B-2E41-40B0-8878-FF367DADA8A4-8905-00000514F267A82C_zps0e128bf8.jpg

I happened to have a block of cheese on me, too.

[Pedaling Fool]

As long as you don't mind sleeping surrounded by mice Shet, then no it's not a problem.

BTW, he's eating the ants, not the Shet.

http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/6/9/3/6/06-21-061605.jpg (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showimage.php?i=18147&original=1&catid=member&imageuser=6936)

[RodentWhisperer]

Take this with the appropriate grain of salt, considering its source: but why on Earth would anyone think bringing ONE mousetrap into a shelter would do anything? Mousetraps kill *one mouse*. Mice live in highly social communities...

[AllenIsbell]

I was wondering the same thing^

Maybe they were thinking that the sound of it snapping would scare the other mice away?

[Tree Nerd]

Well the snap could possibly wake you up, if so, reset it and wait for the next victim....thats what I would assume.

[brian039]

I didn't sleep in many shelters but I made the mistake of forgetting I left some candy wrappers in the side pocket of my pack once. I heard mice jumping off the rafters all night, hitting my pack which was hanging on a mouse hanger, then sliding off and hitting the ground. I was too tired to care and woke up and found holes in the side pocket of my pack and chewed up candy wrappers. I guess one lucky mouse managed to make the leap.

[RodentWhisperer]

Well the snap could possibly wake you up, if so, reset it and wait for the next victim....thats what I would assume.

*sigh*

You're so determined to kill mice that you're willing to interrupt your sleep several times over the course of a night?

[MuddyWaters]

*sigh*

You're so determined to kill mice that you're willing to interrupt your sleep several times over the course of a night?

..and everyone elses. Dont even think about it. Besides, carrying around a bloody stained mouse trap and disposing of bloody little mice probably is possibly an exposure route to hantavirus, which is only like 40% fatal.

[RodentWhisperer]

^I just hit my invisible "like" button.

[swjohnsey]

Hantavirus? I worry more about meteor strikes.

[swjohnsey]

No cases of hantavirus east of the Mississippi that I know of. Only a handful west of the Mississippi.

[MuddyWaters]

One of the first cases of hantavirus in the US was an AT hiker around 1993:

Emerging Infectious Diseases Hantavirus Pulmonary Syndrome -- Virginia, 1993

Hantavirus pulmonary syndrome (HPS) was first recognized in June 1993 as a result of the investigation of a cluster of fatal cases of adult respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS) in the southwestern United States (1). During that month, a 61-year-old man was admitted to a hospital in southern Pennsylvania with ARDS; recent testing of all available specimens from this patient has confirmed the diagnosis of HPS. This report summarizes the case investigation.

When hospitalized on June 28, 1993, the man reported a 4-day history of fever, chills, headache, myalgia, nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea. After admission, he became hypotensive and increasingly short of breath and was transferred to a tertiary-care medical center. Laboratory findings included leukocytosis (white blood cell count 25,300/mm3), hemoconcentration (hemoglobin of 20.0 g/L), thrombocytopenia (platelet count 65,000/mm3), and elevated blood urea nitrogen, creatinine (peak value 6.8 ug/dL), prothrombin time, activated partial thromboplastin time, aspartate aminotransferase (peak value 8500 U/L), lactic dehydrogenase, and lipase levels. A chest radiograph indicated bilateral diffuse infiltrates. During his prolonged hospital course, he required respiratory and circulatory support and hemodialysis. He was discharged on July 22, 1993.
An enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay with heterologous antigens performed on serum samples obtained on July 2 and July 20 were highly suspect for hantavirus antibodies. Subsequent retesting of these samples, as well as of an additional sample obtained in September 1994, with Sin Nombre virus (SNV) antigens confirmed the diagnosis of HPS.
In April 1993, the patient had started hiking on the Appalachian Trail northbound from Georgia through North Carolina, Tennessee, Virginia, and West Virginia. From May 13 through June 20, he hiked primarily along the Appalachian Trail in Virginia and reported evidence of mice, including excreta and rodent traps in shelters and bunkhouses.
To further characterize the prevalence of hantavirus in local rodent populations, the offices of Epidemiology and Environmental Health of the Virginia Department of Health, local health departments, the National Park Service, and CDC are conducting rodent trapping. Reported by: BH Hamory, MD, C Zwillich, MD, T Bollard, MD, JO Ballard, MD, The Milton S Hershey Medical Center, Hershey; M Connor, DO, Chambersberg Hospital, Chambersberg; P Lurie, MD, M Moll, MD, J Rankin, DVM, State Epidemiologist, Pennsylvania Dept of Health. C Smith, MD, New River Health District, Radford; S Jenkins, VMD, E Barrett, DMD, GB Miller, Jr, MD, State Epidemiologist, Virginia Dept of Health. W Frampton, DVM, S Lanser MPH, CR Nichols, MPA, State Epidemiologist, Utah Dept of Health. DT King, Harpers Ferry, West Virginia; A Kingsbury, MS, Washington, DC, National Park Service, US Dept of the Interior. Special Pathogens Br, Div of Viral and Rickettsial Diseases, National Center for Infectious Diseases, CDC.
Editorial Note

Editorial Note: This report describes the first known case of HPS in the mid-Atlantic states. The patient's infection probably was acquired along the Appalachian Trail in Virginia, an area within the range of habitation of the primary rodent reservoir of SNV, Peromyscus maniculatus (deer mouse). The prodromal illness and respiratory failure are consistent with HPS (2); the renal involvement characteristic of Eurasian hemorrhagic fever with renal syndrome (HFRS) has not been typical of HPS. Moderate elevations ( greater than 2.5 ug/dL) in serum creatinine have occurred in only 10% of fatal cases of HPS; prominent renal involvement, such as that which occurred in this patient, has been documented only in two cases from the southeastern United States, both of which are believed to have been associated with hantaviruses other than SNV (provisionally named Black Creek Canal virus and Bayou virus) (3,4). Thus, the marked liver transaminase elevation in this patient has not been a prominent feature in other cases of HPS, although the prominent liver dysfunction has occurred with HFRS (5,6). However, because both renal and hepatic dysfunction can be caused by antecedent hypotension and other factors, additional case investigation is ongoing to clarify the relevance of these findings.

Since June 1993, when HPS was first recognized in the United States, 98 cases have been identified in 21 states. The mean age of case-patients has been 35.1 years (range: 12-69 years), and the case-fatality rate is 52%; 52 (54%) cases have occurred in males. The earliest retrospectively identified case, inferred by a history of a compatible illness and elevated IgG titers detected for SNV, occurred in a 38-year-old man in Utah in 1959.

[RodentWhisperer]

Note also the words from WebMD:

"Deer mice carry the Sin Nombre strain of hantavirus. Cotton rats and rice rats carry hantavirus in the Southeast, while white-footed mice carry hantavirus in the Northeast. [...] Most people get it by inhaling dust contaminated by rodent droppings or by touching rodent urine and then touching their mouth, eyes, or nose. Getting infected is easier than it might seem. For example, you might go into your garage and scare off some mice nesting in an old cardboard box. The frightened mice leave behind a trail of urine. You pick up the mess they've left behind. You sweep up the droppings. The air fills with dust, which you breathe into your lungs."

And how much fecal matter/urine is in the shelters?

[swjohnsey]

Almost as common a meteor strikes.

[swjohnsey]

Note also the words from WebMD:

"Deer mice carry the Sin Nombre strain of hantavirus. Cotton rats and rice rats carry hantavirus in the Southeast, while white-footed mice carry hantavirus in the Northeast. [...] Most people get it by inhaling dust contaminated by rodent droppings or by touching rodent urine and then touching their mouth, eyes, or nose. Getting infected is easier than it might seem. For example, you might go into your garage and scare off some mice nesting in an old cardboard box. The frightened mice leave behind a trail of urine. You pick up the mess they've left behind. You sweep up the droppings. The air fills with dust, which you breathe into your lungs."

And how much fecal matter/urine is in the shelters?

Are you serious? The vast majority of the folks infected by hantavirus have been poor Indians living in mouse infested hovels. I wasn't a shelter dweller but I didn't see any mouse turds or urine. I ain't 'xactly fastidious, but even I wouldn't dip my finger in mouse pee and then lick it.

[RodentWhisperer]

^It's rather hard to see mouse turds... And when mice pee, they release small drops. People who see fecal matter are the ones looking for it, and the only way to see fresh mouse urine is to have a mouse pee on you. Viral infested matter dries up, breaks into dust, and blows around. Assuming that you only risk infection when you're in a "mouse infested" location fails to account for accumulation over time. No one has said that sleeping in a shelter means one will inevitably become infected with hantavirus. But it's something of a mistake to assume that the only people who get infected are "poor Indians in... hovels".

And I don't want to steal the thread even more by asking how "poor" and "hovel" are to be defined!

[MuddyWaters]

Yes its rare, to come down with it.

That does not mean its rare to be exposed to it.

I figure it must be a lot like West Nile, etc (pure speculation, admittedly). Generally, it doesnt affect the vast majority of the people with a strong immune system. But when someone is succeptible for whatever reason, its bad. In this case, really, really bad. Since its obviously out there, there isnt much other explanation for lack of cases of it.

I would personally rate it as a higher worry than being attacked by a bear, but lower than falling off a cliff.
Just the same, I would avoid handling freshly dead rodents and their bodily fluids, if possible.

[swjohnsey]

^It's rather hard to see mouse turds... And when mice pee, they release small drops. People who see fecal matter are the ones looking for it, and the only way to see fresh mouse urine is to have a mouse pee on you. Viral infested matter dries up, breaks into dust, and blows around. Assuming that you only risk infection when you're in a "mouse infested" location fails to account for accumulation over time. No one has said that sleeping in a shelter means one will inevitably become infected with hantavirus. But it's something of a mistake to assume that the only people who get infected are "poor Indians in... hovels".

And I don't want to steal the thread even more by asking how "poor" and "hovel" are to be defined!

I think they call 'em jakals, dirt floor made of sticks. Take a trip out west. In a country of 300,000,000 souls or so a few dozen have come down with it, almost all west of the Mississippi, all most all on Indian Reservation. You are probably safe unless you lick your fingers.

[swjohnsey]

Yes its rare, to come down with it.

That does not mean its rare to be exposed to it.

I figure it must be a lot like West Nile, etc (pure speculation, admittedly). Generally, it doesnt affect the vast majority of the people with a strong immune system. But when someone is succeptible for whatever reason, its bad. In this case, really, really bad. Since its obviously out there, there isnt much other explanation for lack of cases of it.

I would personally rate it as a higher worry than being attacked by a bear, but lower than falling off a cliff.
Just the same, I would avoid handling freshly dead rodents and their bodily fluids, if possible.

You will see more bear than shelter mice.

[MuddyWaters]

You will see more bear than shelter mice.

Not me. I see way more mice than bears.

The folks in Yosemite last yr also werent indians living in the dirt, they were tourists staying in park cabins. 8 contracted, 3 died.

more up to date cases in the US by state

20988

[Sarcasm the elf]

If you have to stay in a shelter, what are the best ways to prevent mice from chewing through all your stuff? Is this mainly food related problem with a simple answer of bear bagging your food? I've heard about people bringing along a mouse trap or two?

Hang your food on a mouse trapeze and unzip/open every possible pocket on your pack and jacket. The lovely little rodents will take a stroll around if they feel like it, if you give them an easy entrance into your pack/pockets then they are much less likely to chew a new entrance for themselves. Also, you never know what the mice will decide to go after, I've actually stayed in a shelter where the little bastards chewed up the corner of a fellow hikers paperback book in the middle of the night, presumably to use as nesting material.

As others have said, drop the mousetrap idea. There are far too many of them to deal with, if you see two mice during the night, just assume that there were probably a couple dozen that you didn't see. Killing one or two of them is unnecessary and will just open up food and space for more of them to breed.

With regards to the hantavirus discussion, yes it technically exists, but it kills less than 15 people annually (according to the Internet), in the USA, and most of those cases are in the western part of the country. Statistically speaking, anything that causes 15 deaths in a population of 300,000,000 people has such a low probability of occurring that it shouldn't cause you any concern. By contrast there are ~30,000 motor vehicle fatalities in the USA annually, so you are roughly 2000 times more likely to be killed by a car accident than by hantavirus.

[aficion]

You will see more bear than shelter mice.

load a malarky

[swjohnsey]

Really. I saw six bear and one mouse. The mouse was something called a white footed mouse.

[brian039]

Really. I saw six bear and one mouse. The mouse was something called a white footed mouse.

I saw about 15 bears and a couple of mice and I stayed in a few shelters.

[AllenIsbell]

..and everyone elses. Dont even think about it. Besides, carrying around a bloody stained mouse trap and disposing of bloody little mice probably is possibly an exposure route to hantavirus, which is only like 40% fatal.

I'm just going to toss them a pack of ramen. I can deal with the sound of them fiddling with the wrapper all night. I sleep heavy, anyways.

[springerfever]

8) If you leave some (unused) TP out, they will go there instead because they use it for bedding and value warmth over food. I have no real proof this works but I have seen TP all chewed up in the AM. Just saying

Yep, TP is highly sought after by shelter mice. The only material that I have found more highly prized.... is the synthetic towel material used as a hankerchief , wash towel or cooking mitt. The holy grail of mice for nesting material !!

[RodentWhisperer]

I think they call 'em jakals, dirt floor made of sticks. Take a trip out west. In a country of 300,000,000 souls or so a few dozen have come down with it, almost all west of the Mississippi, all most all on Indian Reservation. You are probably safe unless you lick your fingers.

in case you haven't looked at my Location, realize that my life is a trip out West-- and I've visited several reservations, too...

Once again: no one ever said you should expect to become infected with hantavirus by sleeping in a shelter. The point was that the risk is real, regardless of whether you are West or East of the Mississippi.

[EllieMP]

Hi.. I found out that Moth balls keep mice out of campers, boats and vehicles left standing for long periods of time. Would there be a way to incorporate that in keeping mice out of a shelter? or even a pack? If kept in baggies and only used at night? Just a thought that might be worth trying..

[swjohnsey]

in case you haven't looked at my Location, realize that my life is a trip out West-- and I've visited several reservations, too...

Once again: no one ever said you should expect to become infected with hantavirus by sleeping in a shelter. The point was that the risk is real, regardless of whether you are West or East of the Mississippi.


Did you notice my location?

[henry g wilgo]

Ok this is my suggestion,,,after a prief research,,,,i am going to use pepper mint oil....soak cotton balls...use in backpack and or clothing pockets

[swjohnsey]

Peanut butter works, too.

[RodentWhisperer]

Did you notice my location?

I just did. And I'm outta here. HYOH, happy trails, etc. etc. etc.