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Jack Tarlin
07-01-2005, 11:24
Interesting comments from Ray Jardine on the Go-Lite company; should be of particular interest to anyone about to buy Go-Lite stuff...

http://www.rayjardine.com/essays/golitesucks.shtml

MOWGLI
07-01-2005, 11:38
Interesting, but....

Mr. Jardine writes "My feelings and Jenny's feelings for this individual and his company and all others are completely neutral."

But then he goes and names this particular page on is website, golitesucks.shtml

Kinda makes the claim about being "neutral" ring a bit hollow.

Footslogger
07-01-2005, 12:06
Well ...to me anyway, Ray hit it right on the head when he attributed the fiasco to "greed". One of the things that caused me to walk away years ago from an aspiring career in business was the basis on which many businesses today operate - GREED. Not to in any way justify or condone it's existence, I think it's pretty difficult NOT to get sucked into the world of greed once you find yourself with a saleable idea/product in this society.

I don't know the Jardine history/story very well ...but that's my take on the whole thing.

'Slogger

Lanthar Mandragoran
07-01-2005, 16:12
wow... that's extremely interesting... I'd recommend Ray contact a lawyer... hell, he can give any proceeds to charity, but, IMO companies need to be punished for illegal business practices, and if what ray says is true, well then GoLite needs to feel the sting of law... but then again, I don't know how much 'proof' there is...

Crazy Larry #1
07-01-2005, 16:25
all of us should boycott them, that is really horsecrap, i wonder if the outfitters along the trail are aware of this????

Jack Tarlin
07-01-2005, 17:09
I started this thread because I thought it'd be of interest to lots of folks...... I'm not taking sides here.

In re. to Wanderer's comments about a boycott of Go-Lite:

1. Keep in mind we've heard one side of this dispute. There may well be another. In fact, there may be several other realities here: In my experience, when there's a dispute in hiker world, it's not a black and white thing. In fact, it's A,B, and C. There's side A, which is one guy's perspective and beef; there's side B which is the other guy's, and then there's side C, which is what actually happened.
2. Jardine acknowledges (twice I think) that it was his decision to essentially sign away his rights and to give away his good name. He hints that he was pressured or browbeaten into doing this, but remember, it was HIS decision.
3. He claims that his primary interest was in getting his innovative light-weight designs out to the most possible folks, and that his interest was never financial. Has this philosophy changed now that Go-Lite is a very succesful company? Is that why he's pissed now? Where I come from, when folks say "It's not about the money," it's time to check on the location of your wallet.

In short, this reminds me of stories about successful novelists who sell their stories to Hollywood, and then complain about how their "children" have been ruined as a result. People like Ann Rice, John Irving, and many other well-known writers have gone ballistic about what's become of their "creations." But they didn't mind the royalties, checks, or pubicity that came first.

These folks elected to sell their work to Hollywood,and benefitted handsomely, both thru publicity and financial compensation.

Same for Jardine. He sold out his work and good name,and now he doesn't like the result. He might have a leitimate beef. He might not. But calling for a boycott of Go-Lite when folks have heard just one side of the story seems to me to be pre-mature. And just maybe, wrong.

jackiebolen
07-01-2005, 17:11
It's definitely made me think twice about buying a new Go-Lite product. I didn't realize the extent of this companie's "sketchy factor."

Lanthar Mandragoran
07-01-2005, 17:17
Jack,
What you're saying is somewhat what I was getting at. IF, in fact, the story is as Jardine portray's it, he really needs to call a lawyer, regardless of his financial wishes. If it's grey area, he should probably still call and get the matter resolved. I'm not saying the originaly contract was wrong, but it seems that stuff later may be wrong. All depends on how the contract is worded and what the lawyers say.

IMO, if nothing else, this story encourages me to continue supporting 'cottage' suppliers whenever possible.

Mags
07-01-2005, 17:23
I don't go buy Go-Lite for one reason only: there are usually less expensive and/or better alternatives available. I did buy a Wisp on closeout because it was the least expensive (and lightest) of the types avail. The Wisp is no longer made and was replaced by a heavier jacket.

Go-Lite is a bit like Northface: it is the brand name many casual outdoor type people reconginze...and it is favored by sponsored atheletes (who probably get the schwag for free). I see this happening Boulder (where GoLite is based). Go-Lite is Northface...Mont Bell is Mounain Hardware.


Bottom line: If you like the gear..buy it. If you don't, then don't. Just be aware of other alternatives.

As Jack said, there are three sides to the issue. Remember, Coup and Jardine are both very strong and opinionated personalities. Suspect people like that tend to bump heads. Heck...it happens in our own little on-line world, too. :)

Jack Tarlin
07-01-2005, 17:24
Personally, I never bought or used Go-Lite products, but this had nothing to with Ray Jardine or his connection to the company.

I simply didn't think they were very good.

Nean
07-01-2005, 18:41
I know Ray- Bless his heart. I've always thought he had problems. Ego Power Control, Ray should know. Poor Ray got screwed in the begining, the middle and the end? He has been down that road before and should have known better. The Ray I know would be impossible to work with, Bless his heart. To understand a bit about the man just look at his idea of "neutral"

ATSeamstress
07-01-2005, 19:04
Did Jardine have any of these agreements in writing?

SGT Rock
07-02-2005, 08:29
I agree with Mags, I don't own anything by GoLite because there are better alternatives for better made, lower price gear. I also read Ray Jardine's book, while it does have some good info in it, I wold sooner recommend someone to check out websites like Charles Lindsey's because the information is FREE and because it has a board like this, you can get multiple opinions on lightweight style and gear and do so in an interactive nature instead of gospel and verse by a guru.

Oh, and to add to this, I think Ray Actually started distancing himself from them around 2002 or so because of the quality and design deviation problems. This row has been sort of public for a few years.

neo
07-02-2005, 11:13
i am with ray jardine,golite exploited his name,golite is over rated,over priced
and to freaking heavy to be ultra lite,only the golite breeze pack is from his original design,and a couple of their tarps,golite sucks:cool: neo

neo
07-02-2005, 11:20
Interesting comments from Ray Jardine on the Go-Lite company; should be of particular interest to anyone about to buy Go-Lite stuff...

http://www.rayjardine.com/essays/golitesucks.shtml


golite aint worth a crap in my book,i want to buy one of ray,s quilt kits
you could not give me any golite crap:cool: neo

minnesotasmith
07-03-2005, 03:15
Do you have the URL for Charles Lindsey's site?

Heater
07-03-2005, 03:53
Do you have the URL for Charles Lindsey's site?
After I read his post I googled and only found links that were from '98. :eek:

If he has a current site, I would like to check it out as well.

Doctari
07-03-2005, 06:19
Now if we could only get viewpoint #3 maybe we would have the whole story. Here is what is on the GoLight site:

" Dear GoLite Customers,

Since we founded GoLite, all of us here have lived by a Mission & Core Values statement that we developed together as a team. Integrity & Honesty are our first core values for a reason: these values infuse everything we do here. A recent web posting by Ray Jardine has raised questions about this commitment to honesty & integrity, & the following posting is an open letter to the public in response to the Jardine web posting.

GoLite entered into a business relationship with Ray Jardine in 1998 whereby Mr. Jardine was paid a percentage-of-sales royalty for designing eleven of GoLite’s original products. In March 2004, GoLite ended our contract with Mr. Jardine due to repeated, direct violations of this contract by Mr. Jardine.

The detailed communications between GoLite & Mr. Jardine outlining the reasons behind the ending of this business relationship, including Mr. Jardine’s final communication to GoLite on March 31, 2004, can be viewed by clicking here. Also included at the end of this attachment is a scan of Mr. Jardine’s May 2005 web posting.

To summarize these communications: on March 11, 2004, we emailed & mailed a memo to Ray Jardine asking him to cease his clear violation of the contract. Weeks went by with no response, & we were forced to make public the fact that our contract with Mr. Jardine was de facto null & void. We ceased production on all “Ray-Way” products, removed language referring to the Jardines from marketing materials, & informed our customers & the news media. Seventeen days later we received a note from Mr. Jardine asking us to re-look at his website. The website language that had precipitated the March 11 memo was removed, but with no response from Mr. Jardine for weeks, we had already made public the ending of our contract. We sent the second March 31 note saying so. That same day, we received Mr. Jardine’s final communication to us, a concise apology that also indicated that we had reached closure & that our business dealings together were concluded. Fourteen months later (May 2005), Mr. Jardine posted a libelous & factually false web posting entitled “GoLite Sucks” that can be seen, in its entirety, at the end of the attached communications between GoLite & Mr. Jardine.

Mr. Jardine’s recent web posting is deeply saddening for all of us because we have viewed his philosophies on lightweight backcountry travel as our inspiration since GoLite was founded. Mr. Jardine’s charges that we are a corrupt, big company & that we have been “lining our pockets” is wrong on all three counts. GoLite is a privately-held company, so we are not required to share our financial information publicly. However, the Jardines’ web posting is so packed with lies, misrepresentations, slander, & libel that we feel it is important that we share the following: we are a small, family-owned business struggling, David-&-Goliath-like, to survive against large, entrenched competition in the outdoor industry. We have personally sunk every penny we ever earned before GoLite into the company as well as investments from another family member to make GoLite work so that we could lighten people's loads & so that we could change the hearts & minds of a generation about what is really needed to enjoy the outdoors. Our team here has dedicated countless hours over the past six years trying to spark the "lightweight revolution" & to bring to the market excellent lightweight products. Through 2004, we sold over 1900 copies of Ray Jardine’s book, “Beyond Backpacking,” with no margin (i.e. losing money on every copy), because we viewed his book as an important contribution to the collection of outdoor literature & as a service to our customers.

In complete alignment with our company’s values, from our first contact with the Jardines in 1998, we have in every way acted fairly & honorably towards them. We have also always spoken & written of the Jardines with respect & deference. More relevantly, GoLite fulfilled 100% of both the letter & spirit of what we agreed to with Mr. Jardine. Mr. Jardine, however, did not do so.

We regret that Mr. Jardine’s web posting has forced us to take something that was a purely private business matter public, but we have understandably received many concerned emails & calls from customers since Mr. Jardine put up the recent web posting, so we now feel that it is vital that you, our valued customers, know the truth of what transpired in 2004 & so that you can know that it is Mr. Jardine who is lacking in integrity.

At this point, we do not plan on taking any formal action such as a lawsuit against Mr. Jardine for libel & breach of contract - how would that serve the ultra-lite movement? We also do not plan on any further public communication about this matter: we have placed on the GoLite website all of the relevant documents & communications necessary for you to make up your own mind about the veracity (or lack thereof) of Mr. Jardine’s web posting. All of us at GoLite feel that there are so many other more important things to focus our energy on, like getting people outdoors & lightening their loads!

We thank you all for your business in the past, & we look forward to continuing to lighten your loads in the years to come.

Sincerely,

Demetri and Kim Coupounas
GoLite
July 1, 2005 "


Makes you go "HMMMMM" don't it.

Doctari.

Heater
07-03-2005, 07:10
Now if we could only get viewpoint #3 maybe we would have the whole story. Here is what is on the GoLight site:

" Dear GoLite Customers,

Since we founded GoLite, all of us here have lived by a Mission & Core Values statement that we developed together as a team. Integrity & Honesty are our first core values for a reason: these values infuse everything we do here. A recent web posting by Ray Jardine has raised questions about this commitment to honesty & integrity, & the following posting is an open letter to the public in response Interesting! Hmmmmm... Greed vs Ego.

Does anyone win?

My answer is YES! Screw the both of 'em. :D

We win. They lose.

TakeABreak
07-03-2005, 07:20
So, I guess this whole thing explains a lot to me, personally I have owned any golite equipment. But, I have heard of a lot of unhappy people out there, who have been duped into buying it, which has made me wonder over the years, because I heard Ray, was behind the gear and he is well known to be an honest and upright person and an avid backpacker to say the least.

I also, have thought that the gear was over priced, to quite honest.

Nean
07-03-2005, 10:07
I don't know Coup, never met him, but we both know the same Jardine:eek:-bless his heart. Ray has always been nice to me but he suffers what I call West disease which symtoms include Ego, POWER, Control, Insults, Deception. Ray enhanced this disease to the hiking community with another spun project- ALDHA-West. He didn't last long there either, although last I checked the organization was still suffering from the infection. This is coming from my perspective and perhaps only my opinion. I feel sorry for Ray (bless his heart) and those like him. People have thier opinion that Brysons book was a negative for the trail, but I always thought Rays first two editions brought far more. I used to credit those books with bringing the rat race and politics to the trail. Saying Ray is an avid backpacker is like saying Wingfoot is avid. As far as upright and honest, read both sites.

SGT Rock
07-03-2005, 10:21
Do you have the URL for Charles Lindsey's site?
Sorry, I thought most people already knew about this site: http://www.backpacking.net/

Whistler
07-03-2005, 11:23
Here is what is on the GoLight site:
Direct links here:

http://www.golite.com/about/golite_and_ray_jardine.asp
http://www.golite.com/about/ray_letters.pdf

-Mark

Heater
07-03-2005, 16:48
Sorry, I thought most people already knew about this site: http://www.backpacking.net/
Oh that one! :D That's the Charles Lindsey site!

I didn't make the connection. That seems to be happening more and more lately, I think... :-?

jlb2012
07-04-2005, 07:33
Do you have the URL for Charles Lindsey's site?

isn't Charles' site The Lightweight Backpacker (http://www.backpacking.net/) ? Or am I confused :bse

Youngblood
07-04-2005, 09:16
isn't Charles' site The Lightweight Backpacker (http://www.backpacking.net/) ? Or am I confused :bseGood one... you made me look!

Skyline
07-04-2005, 09:59
I've read some of Ray's stuff, and found an idea here and there that has helped me a lot. Much of it I dismissed as either silly, unrealistic, or just not of interest to me.

But there's no denying Ray Jardine was and may still be an important personality in the ultralight "revolution."

Onto Go-Lite. Most folks I know who have purchased their merchandise--especially lightweight backpacks--report serious problems if they use them a lot. The workmanship seems shoddy, stitches come loose, straps fray, buckles stop fastening. Is this Ray's fault? Doubtful. And it may be a clue as to who is being more truthful here. Or not.

One thing I know for sure. Several of the better known outffitters along the AT have stopped carrying Go-Lite products. Those I've spoken to cite the high percentage of warranty issues inherent with Go-Lite products, plus difficulties in dealing with the company. Just more hassle than it's worth to them, especially now that better ultralight alternatives exist. Ray's fault? Not on this.

SGT Rock
07-04-2005, 10:33
isn't Charles' site The Lightweight Backpacker (http://www.backpacking.net/) ? Or am I confused :bse
Well that is a domain name he has as well, but if you look at the site after the name resolves it points to the URL I posted. It is possible to buy more than one domain name and point it to you site.

SGT Rock
07-04-2005, 10:37
One thing I know for sure. Several of the better known outffitters along the AT have stopped carrying Go-Lite products. Those I've spoken to cite the high percentage of warranty issues inherent with Go-Lite products, plus difficulties in dealing with the company. Just more hassle than it's worth to them, especially now that better ultralight alternatives exist. Ray's fault? Not on this.
To be fair to GoLite on this, and I think some folks that work in outfitters can back this up, a lot of the warranty return problems are people over packing their GoLite packs with more weight than they are designed to carry or using their ultralight gear like normal gear when it is designed to be treated with extreme care.

Sly
07-04-2005, 19:58
Hey Rock,

Have you done your Smokies hike yet?

Heater
07-04-2005, 22:30
Onto Go-Lite. Most folks I know who have purchased their merchandise--especially lightweight backpacks--report serious problems if they use them a lot. The workmanship seems shoddy, stitches come loose, straps fray, buckles stop fastening. Is this Ray's fault?
Not unless they are carrying a pack loaded to the rated capacity on one shoulder strap like Ray promotes in his book. :p

Funny... I was thinking about that today. That would put double the weight as well as an uneven strain on the strap stitching. I imagine a lot of people that read his book bought the GoLite gear. Maybe that is why so many GoLite packs were busting straps! :D

SGT Rock
07-04-2005, 23:05
Hey Rock,

Have you done your Smokies hike yet?
No, real life has gotten in the way of my hiking :datz

fiddlehead
07-04-2005, 23:30
I often make my own gear and was thinking about a backpack. When i saw the Go-lite "Breeze" i realized i couldn't come up with a better design or lighter weight reliable, rugged pack. I bought one and continue to use one to this day. I did wear out 2 of them but that was after carrying them about 4,000 miles each. (The lining on the inside of the pack delaminated both times) I've tried making my own lighter packs but the materials always broke down too quick. (I've never broken a strap)
Whether it was ray jardine or go lite that researched the materials for the 'Breeze", I don't know and i don't care. I'm just glad someone made this great backpack and saved me lots of trial and error.

Once when i was in Boulder, i stopped in at Go-lite because i wanted to tell them my thoughts on their "cave" tent that i had tried out and wanted to recommend some changes. After introducing myself and told them why i was there, they said:" oh our design team is in a meeting right now, would you tell them your ideas? This hardly sounds like a company that isn't interested in good designed products. Perhaps Ray is as hard to get along with as some say.
Anyway, the "Breeze" is a no frills pack and at 14 oz it works for me. Thanks Go-lite! fh

Youngblood
07-05-2005, 01:32
I've used a Breeze backpack for about 5 years now and have been very pleased with it. I purchased it for about $120(?) at Neels Gap when it was the only pack that GoLite sold. It has delaminated some on the inside of the extension collar but I don't worry too much about that... looks to me that it is where I have grabbed it with my hands hundreds of times when I have packed and unpacked my bag. If I needed to replace it I would certainly look at getting another one.

Youngblood

Choreboy
07-05-2005, 08:40
We have always carried Jardines book it helped start the Industry, made a ton of sense especially in the early to mid 90's when we saw our fare share of injuries from the folks lugging 50, 60 and 70 pounds up the trail.

As for Golite and Jardine...read the contract. They had to have agreed on it to create one and put their John Henry's on it... Thats business.

GoLite as a manufacture of Ultralite Gear has been helpfull, and always top drawer... Example; Hiker "My Pack just blew out, shoulder strap tore out down in The Shenandoahs]" Golite "Go ahead and give them a replacement, and please send the damaged one back to us so we can evaluate what happened, to try & make it better".[/B]

That is what you want to hear isn't it ? We even get refunded for our shipping costs, which is pretty darn rare in retail world.

No questions thrown at you like, Hey were they loading the pack at the recommended weight ?, Did they drag it up the rocks by a shoulder strap ? Did a bear pull it up the trail to get the snickers bar wrapper stuffed in the side pocket ?.

Contracts are pretty black & white no grey areas if it is written correctly. It is also very important for both parties to review the written information from time to time if they are not 100% sure as to what is expected of them.

Choreboy
R. Clark
The Outfitter at Harpers Ferry

The Solemates
07-05-2005, 09:47
Interesting! Hmmmmm... Greed vs Ego.

Does anyone win?

My answer is YES! Screw the both of 'em. :D

We win. They lose.

BINGO.......

The Solemates
07-05-2005, 09:48
No, real life has gotten in the way of my hiking :datz

hiking is real life

:D

Nean
07-05-2005, 10:02
Choreboy doesn't post much but that #2 was a good one. I'm very tempted to try Golite now. Ray did not invent ultralight but I do give him full credit on promoting that style to the masses. Just scratching the surface here, but His Way of thinking, style of writing (granted, improved w/ ea. edition) and self promotion are what put me off. Even so I hope Ray is happy... he should be! It's just that I'm not surprised by this thread -based on my experience with him.

SGT Rock
07-05-2005, 10:03
hiking is real life

:D
Naw, hiking is my escape from the realities of my life, so if that is true, than this other off-trail must be my real life and the other on the trail is my paradise. If it were the other way around it means I would leave reality for this:

Real life is I have kids, gotta keep them fed and give them a place to live while hopefully raising them correctly to make good little hikers and trail maintainers. I have people that work for me and expect I do my job so they can go on leave, get paid the right amount, resolve their issues while still keeping my bosses happy, etc. and boy do I have a lot of bosses. Add to that not making my wife mad by hiking too much. A couple of web-site to keep the hikers happy that I somehow have gotten into against my better judgement. Add to that a few college classes so I can get a good job and continue to do all this after the Army is in my past. All this involves 2 cell phones, 3 computers, about 10 different e-mail accounts that probably have me going through about 30 e-mails a day even when I am on leave like I am now and I've got relatives visiting this coming weekend that we are going to GI the house for...:eek: :datz :confused:

See to look at it the other way would be too depressing.

I need some time away from reality.

Nean
07-05-2005, 10:09
I figure everyone has their own reality, Some more "special" than others;)

Mags
07-05-2005, 14:31
I don't know Coup, never met him, but we both know the same Jardine:eek:-bless his heart. Ray has always been nice to me but he suffers what I call West disease which symtoms include Ego, POWER, Control, Insults, Deception.

As I said, I think the problem with this whole Go-Lite issue is that both parties involved have strong personalities. And people with strong personalities tend to bump heads.

Without knowing what really happened (and I suspect we won't) it is best to buy or not buy the gear based on two simple criteria:

1) Will the gear do what I need?
2) Is it a good value for my money?

As both Sgt. Rock and I said, there are alternatives to Go-Lite, and other name brand manufacturers. Find many of the cottage companies have better made, lower cost and lighter gear than Marmot, Northface, Go-Lite et al.

Pick and choose what works for you. I have a Go-Lite Wisp I use..but i also bought it on clearence, too.

So don't worry about the political soap opera. Just buy the gear that does the job for you.

Sly
07-05-2005, 15:44
Mags,

How do you like the Go-lite Wisp? I won one at Trail Days, thanks Coup! Right now it's a little tight, so I may have to save it for later in a thru-hike. ;)

I also own a Go-lite day pack (miniature Breeze) that I'm thinking could be used for a summer weekend hike and a featureless, but light, nylon rain jacket that I bought at Sierra Trading Post cheap.

fiddlehead
07-06-2005, 03:26
Mags,



I also own a Go-lite day pack (miniature Breeze) that I'm thinking could be used for a summer weekend hike and a featureless, but light, nylon rain jacket that I bought at Sierra Trading Post cheap.
Sly, i have a day pack too. I use it if i'm going out for less than 3 nights. I really can't get my gear plus more than 2 days food in it. But i love it when i can use it. They are sturdy packs for their size and weight, aye?

Nean
07-06-2005, 10:27
Mags, I agree on your criteria for buying gear, but I'll agree to disagree on your other points. It's my nature to tell you why. Blaming strong personalities,IMHO, does more whitewashing than explaining. Its what those personalities bring to the table that cause conflict. I have never gotten along with personalities that had Integrity, Control, Ego issues. My Grandmother would get on us growing up, "don't fuss" she would say, "I hate it when yall fuss." I still disagree with that.

Open, honest discussion is what I love about Whiteblaze, people have their say and then....as Coup pointed out, decide for yourselves. READ those letters. Ray had some issues (control?) and was badmouthing behind his partners back, which is the WEST way, and got called on it. First he ignores, then says sorry can I still have my MONEY?! Now, he is back to "Golitesucks". I have been through a similar situation with Ray and am not the least bit surprised. Again, in my most humble OPINION, Mr. Jardine and those like him have problems, not personality and that is the cause for conflict.
As for: don't worry about the politcal soap opera- who's worried? This thread is about the political soap opera.I thought this was a forum to share experiences and opinions based on such. Information, communication and the ability to make up your own mind is a great thing, and better advice than sticking your head in the proverbial "don't fuss" sand. Maybe I should start a website titled "apathysucks.com":-? :) :rolleyes: ;)

Texas Dreamer
07-06-2005, 11:18
Thought I'd pop in and say I don't know any of the parties involved personally--so I don't care about the soap opera, but I continue to love my Golite Hex, or as I call it, "The Palace". Room for two plus gear, I can stand up inside to dress or birdbath (no short jokes from those who know me!), and all this luxury for exactly two pounds including stakes.

Nean
07-06-2005, 12:59
Howdy, Texas Dreamer! Glad you love your tent, that is- afterall, the bottom line! I don't worry or care about Ray and Coup having a disagreement either. I'm human though and find it interesting! What can I say- I don't own a TV! I must not be the only human; over 1000 views and 45 replies in 5 days. I enjoy open discussion, think it's healthy. Unfortunatly, IMO, some people let emotion overcome logic and fact and try to bring down good people based soley on those emotions. I think that is a bad thing, a sad thing. So...I do care, rather strongly it seems:) , not about the personalities, but about the value of integrity, honesty and the opportunity to discuss it. Probably because I 've long been a member of an organization that does not allow or sets a 2min limit on open discussion. I don't care about BS/propaganda and that is what open, as opposed to one-sided, discussion eventually eliminates. Don't discuss it and the pile will grow. Rays pile has been getting smaller for years, word is getting out. Sorry I'm not more like Lone Wolf and narrow this down to: Ray is full of crap.

SloHiker
07-06-2005, 14:22
I don't have a dog in this fight, and don't know either one of them. If you view the "facts" (the ones openly stated) with an objective mind, the weight of the evidence favors Golite. Personally, I like some of Golite's gear and I think Ray has some good ideas. Golite is a company that makes gear, and Ray is an individual with an opinion and a lot of experience to back it up. Neither is worthy of anything more than your support, IF you like what they have to say or sell. Just my 2 cents worth, but there seems to be a disproportionate level of passion associated with this feud.

Mags
07-06-2005, 15:05
[QUOTE=Nean]Mags, I agree on your criteria for buying gear,

THanks! Knowing all the hiking you have done..I'll take that as a sign of praise! :)


Nean again:

>>but I'll agree to disagree on your other points. It's my nature to tell you why. Blaming >>strong personalities,IMHO, does more whitewashing than explaining. Its what those

..SNIP...

>>Open, honest discussion is what I love about Whiteblaze, people have their say and >>then....as Coup pointed out, decide for yourselves. READ those letters. Ray had some >>issues (control?) and was badmouthing behind his partners back, which is the WEST

Come one Nean...we are basing our opnions on highly biased web sites. Coup is going to present just his side of the issue..just as Ray is going to present his side. Both sites are FAR from objectives.

Are there other e-mails? Other letters? We'll never know. It ain't white washing..it is just common sense. I've heard stories about Coup..I've heard stories about Jardine.

They are both strong, controlling personalities. And, to be frank, I think both sides are leaving out some key details that tell the truth.


But, frankly, I don't care.

I'll just buy gear based on my two simple criteria and leave the political soap operas to other people. Perhaps I did not make my point clearly. Others said they won't buy Go-Lite gear based on what they read. I think it is silly. As we will never really know the truth..why make it a criteria?

People can discuss all they want..not saying anything different. Open discussion is good.

But, to make this soap opera part of why someone will/will not buy gear makes as much sense as buying gear based on astrology, voodoo or what kind of coffee shop Coup goes to here in Boulder. (I like the Boulder Bookstore Cafe' myself...)

Mags
07-06-2005, 15:10
How do you like the Go-lite Wisp? I won one at Trail Days, thanks Coup! Right now it's a little tight, so I may have to save it for later in a thru-hike. ;)



I like it quite a bit. Only paid $40 for it on clearence, too (at STP). Used it on white-out conditions in San Luis Pass while doing the Colorado Trail. My polys stayed quite dry.

Naturally..Go Lite replaced it with something heavier and more expensive that has more "features"! :) No different than any other company...

Nean
07-06-2005, 18:04
I'm trying to follow you here Mags. It's not unusual for strong personalities to bump heads and we don't know the whole story. Thats common sense. I can go with that. Why does Ray or anyone want to make this a soap opera?- don't know or care! I'm good with that. When I see Rays' Golitesucks and Coups response I don't mind giving my opinion. Coup honored their deal, Ray did not. I don't see a lot of play in that. Everything else is soap opera. If I thought Ray got screwed instead of screwing himself I'd say that too! BTW, someone could make the best gear on the planet and if I knew that person didn't have an open mind or a good heart, I'd buy something else.

I just like us being able to express our opinions- and back them up. Caring, as always, is optional.

Mags
07-06-2005, 18:20
BTW, someone could make the best gear on the planet and if I knew that person didn't have an open mind or a good heart, I'd buy something else.

I just like us being able to express our opinions- and back them up. Caring, as always, is optional.

Indeed.

But my point is it that I don't know (or care) who is really telling the truth. I suspect both Jardine and Coup are biased and shading what really happened. Since I don't know if Jadrine or Coup are a-holes. (or again, care). I am not going to use that as criteria to buy gear. And I suggest other people would be wise to do the same. Wether you follow my advice (or yours) is stictly up to the other person. I am just giving my opinion. Take it, leave it..use it, don't.

I am just a pragmatic guy at heart and don't a rat's tootie over the "who said what" issue.


Again..just my opinion. It is OK to express different opinions, as you said. :)

Capish?

Nean
07-06-2005, 19:21
Thanks Mags I'm sorry if I come off as caring about who said, they said. I know Ray. It's a thread about Ray and what he says 'bout Golite. I read the other side, not because I care or that it makes a rats tootie (I like that one). I'm curious and like to think I'm fair. Would I ever not buy gear based on rumors, of course not. Being around for awhile I've gotten to know a lot of the people in the backpacking community and unfortunatly there are some I don't hold in high regard. Just because I would not then buy their product based on personal values am I asking anyone else to do the same. Make your own mind up for whatever reason. Capish? - kinda has a negative tone, I'll try

Peace

Mags
07-06-2005, 19:46
[QUOTE=Nean]Capish? - kinda has a negative tone, I'll try

Peace[/QUOTE

Slang..for "capisici" (ca-pee-shee) "You understand?" Only negative if said by a man about to put you in a car trunk.... Said by me, it is just useful slang for someone who grew up in the northeast, esp if you grew up a little ethnic.

Other useful slang words I and/or people I know use:

magia (mahn-jha) -eat!

mezza mez - so, so (esp. effective when said with a hand motion)

skeevy - slang from the word schifo (skee-fo) Disgusting or sleazy. Did not even know this was a slang word until recently. I described a place as skeevy looking to a friend recently. She said "What does that word mean?" Low and behold..come to find out it is an ethnic slang word..did not even know it. Took me almost 31 yrs to realize been using a word that only people from a few parts in the country use. Kinda cool....

Could tell you a few negative words if you want, too. :)



vado in pace....

Tha Wookie
07-06-2005, 21:47
Howdy, Texas Dreamer! Glad you love your tent, that is- afterall, the bottom line! I don't worry or care about Ray and Coup having a disagreement either. I'm human though and find it interesting! What can I say- I don't own a TV! I must not be the only human; over 1000 views and 45 replies in 5 days. I enjoy open discussion, think it's healthy. Unfortunatly, IMO, some people let emotion overcome logic and fact and try to bring down good people based soley on those emotions. I think that is a bad thing, a sad thing. So...I do care, rather strongly it seems:) , not about the personalities, but about the value of integrity, honesty and the opportunity to discuss it. Probably because I 've long been a member of an organization that does not allow or sets a 2min limit on open discussion. I don't care about BS/propaganda and that is what open, as opposed to one-sided, discussion eventually eliminates. Don't discuss it and the pile will grow. Rays pile has been getting smaller for years, word is getting out. Sorry I'm not more like Lone Wolf and narrow this down to: Ray is full of crap.

Nean,

I don't know where or when you know Ray from but my impressions of him during my three weeks with him in 2003 was far from your description in the above post and all of your descriptions of him in this thread. I found him to be one of the most knowledgable and generous outdoorsmen i have ever encountered. He is brilliant and has done much for long-distance hiking. In a way, they both have. But all I know for certain is that Ray is full of extraordinary knowledge and generosity, so I have to completely disagree with your posts about his character and offer a different perspective from a recent encounter and continual emails with Ray.

take care,wookie

Nean
07-07-2005, 05:14
Thanks Mags, we didn't use the word in my house and know it from the movies. The guy in the trunk, the father to the son w/ a little slap to the head...:) Don't ever talk that way to your mother, capish/wack

And thank you Tha Wookie, I'm sure Ray loves you! I'm happy you think so highly of him. I really don't want to change your mind. I will say long, long ago I thought Ray was pretty cool. Then I got to know him, read parts of his first book, saw how he treated others. Yes, he knows a lot of stuff and can be quite charming. "GoliteSucks!" would charm anyone- real classy too. No, I'm not impressed with his miles or how little time he spent doing them. Ray hiked for reasons I don't value. Regardless of how well or long I've known Ray or how many what ifs or we'll never knows there are- it does not matter. This thread brought up Ray against Golite. I read both sides. Party A talked smack about Party B and therefore did not Honor their agreement. Party B tried to settle the riff. Party A blew off Party B. Party B said Seeyalaterbye, Capish? Party A then said I'm sorry, I'll be good. Now can I have my Money?! Party B- No. Party A Well then I'll write a nasty letter about you.
Even if I had no idea who party A was I'd say they are full of sour grape crap. Since I do, I say I'm not surprised.

Mags
07-07-2005, 13:56
Thanks Mags, we didn't use the word in my house and know it from the movies. The guy in the trunk, the father to the son w/ a little slap to the head...:) Don't ever talk that way to your mother, capish/wack


You've been watching "Goodfellas" too much! :D

(Though my Dad did give us a few whacks how you described..hee hee. He has been doing sheetmetal for 30+ yrs. His hands and wrists are the size of bear paws! He did not need a belt..one of those very big hands on the side of the head...yowwch! Most of the time "the look" sufficed however! )

The part in those movies about the little old woman cooking the feast? I am proud to say that part is true.. :) And to anyone who had my homemade veggie lasagna at the Rockies Ruck can vouch I am trying to carry on that very good tradition... :)

Footslogger
07-07-2005, 14:11
And to anyone who had my homemade veggie lasagna at the Rockies Ruck can vouch I am trying to carry on that very good tradition... :)=================================
Amen to that brother !!

'Slogger

Tha Wookie
07-07-2005, 17:52
Thanks Mags, we didn't use the word in my house and know it from the movies. The guy in the trunk, the father to the son w/ a little slap to the head...:) Don't ever talk that way to your mother, capish/wack

And thank you Tha Wookie, I'm sure Ray loves you! I'm happy you think so highly of him. I really don't want to change your mind. I will say long, long ago I thought Ray was pretty cool. Then I got to know him, read parts of his first book, saw how he treated others. Yes, he knows a lot of stuff and can be quite charming. "GoliteSucks!" would charm anyone- real classy too. No, I'm not impressed with his miles or how little time he spent doing them. Ray hiked for reasons I don't value. Regardless of how well or long I've known Ray or how many what ifs or we'll never knows there are- it does not matter. This thread brought up Ray against Golite. I read both sides. Party A talked smack about Party B and therefore did not Honor their agreement. Party B tried to settle the riff. Party A blew off Party B. Party B said Seeyalaterbye, Capish? Party A then said I'm sorry, I'll be good. Now can I have my Money?! Party B- No. Party A Well then I'll write a nasty letter about you.
Even if I had no idea who party A was I'd say they are full of sour grape crap. Since I do, I say I'm not surprised.
Nean,

I don't mean to sound argumentative, but I want to know a couple things. First, how when did/do you know Ray? And what were his reasons for hiking? How do you know these reasons (did he tell you)?

I'm curious to know what you say about the latter especially.

I know that Ray is a not easy to get along with for most people. But what most people don't understand is that this is necessary for the way he creates. I agree that he has not gone out of his way as far as I know for social graces.

Personally, I can see how he ihas been taken advantage of on different occasions. It's like an artist trying to be a businessman. But for doing so much with just him and Jenny, I don't think he's done such a bad job. I certainly respect anyone brave enough to put out their ideas in front of the hiking critiquesters.

A-Train
07-07-2005, 19:57
I bought an almost-new Breeze pack from someone on this site for 40 bucks, so no big gamble was expended on it. I'm fairly happy with it, though it's really not too comfortable even with 15 or less pounds. It's a good pack for me as a ridgerunner, because I do a lot of day hiking and also because I'm a weight-conscious hiker. At the same time, I wouldn't really recommend or endorse this pack or Golite in general.

For the PCT I won't bother with this pack, but rather put my money in a smaller named company, like ULA or GVP.

Golite's stuff has always seemed a bit junky and I've seen people's packs fall apart. But I do feel they get a raw deal sometimes, because hikers overload their packs past capacity

fiddlehead
07-07-2005, 22:08
I've never met Ray but must say that he has given the thru-hiking world many ideas and somewhat revolutionized the light weight scene.
But I too have to sometimes question his motives for being out there because he seems to road walk a lot on the CDT and recommends things like the "Creed cut off" or the "Annaconda cut off" which both of them involve lots of roadwalking and bypass some of the best parts of the whole trail. I must admit, i took the Creed cutoff because i was tired of snow, but when i went back and finally did that section. found out it is one of America's best sections of hiking in the lower 48! To talk someone out of that is what started me into thinking that maybe Ray was out there for other than the wilderness experience.
I had a great time in Creede because i partied with some Indians, and folks on vacation, and the bar was great. But i had a great time in the Wiminuche wilderness when i went back to hike it because it was wild, had practically no people hiking there, and some of the most beautiful scenery (the "window" is especially amazing) in CO.
I wonder if Ray ever saw this part of America?

Also, he recommends to bypass the El Malpais section in NM. I was so impressed by this section and the first time i walked on Lava flows and saw the ancient Indian ruins and even camped in there. It was one of the best parts of all of NM. Ray recommends skipping it because there is a Howard Johnson's restaurant about 20 miles up the main hiway to the east! That just ain't right!
So, although i too have taken shortcuts on the CDT to get it finished in a season, or in the fastest time possible. I think i have learned that this is not the way to enjoy hiking. (both times i went back and hiked the Wiminuche and Silverton areas, I averaged 10 miles per day in this beautiful section and really enjoyed it)
Anyway, Ray is a great thinker, designer, innovator, etc. If he wants to make money on his ideas, why hasn't he started his own gear company??? Didn't he invent rock climber's "Friends" ??? Someone told me that once, anyway. Point is, i think he could create a very successful gear company. but following his recommended routes? not for me anymore.

copythat
07-08-2005, 00:08
I agree with Mags, I don't own anything by GoLite because there are better alternatives for better made, lower price gear. I also read Ray Jardine's book, while it does have some good info in it, I wold sooner recommend someone to check out websites like Charles Lindsey's because the information is FREE and because it has a board like this, you can get multiple opinions on lightweight style and gear and do so in an interactive nature instead of gospel and verse by a guru.


Gotta say this is the most level-headed thing I've read about this mess. Search around, share your learning (and theirs) and buy the best (for you).

Thanks, Sgt.

dougmeredith
07-08-2005, 08:15
But I too have to sometimes question his motives for being out there because he seems to road walk a lot
At the risk of sounding flippant: so? Each of us hikes for our own reasons. Some for the wilderness experience; some for the sake of learning; some for the opportunity to experiment with hiking gear; some to play with their GPS receiver and maps. Some like hard exercise and some don't. I don't think it is really fair to say that you question his motives just because his interests and priorities differ from yours. I don't think you meant it this way, but when you say you question his motives, it sounds like you are accusing him of being dishonest or deceptive.


Point is, i think he could create a very successful gear company.
Idea man and business man are two very different jobs.

Doug

Mags
07-08-2005, 10:28
I To talk someone out of that is what started me into thinking that maybe Ray was out there for other than the wilderness experience.



Many of the athletic types have this mindset. Finish a trail, another notch on the belt.

(Mind you, I don't know if RJ is like that or not. But, just an observation that many athletic types fit this bill. Many athletic types are very goal oriented..even beyond most thru-hikers).

I don't consider myself an athelete. Though I am in shape from my activities, it is a side benefit from the hiking, exploring and experiencing the wilderness so much.

If your goal is to get another notch on the belt, then taking shortcuts is advisable.

If you exploring the most beautiful part of Colorado is part of your agenda, then don't take the Creede cut-off.

YMMV...literally.

SGT Rock
07-08-2005, 10:37
Gotta say this is the most level-headed thing I've read about this mess. Search around, share your learning (and theirs) and buy the best (for you).

Thanks, Sgt.
Your welcome, and I try.:cool:

fiddlehead
07-09-2005, 00:43
At the risk of sounding flippant: so? Each of us hikes for our own reasons. Some for the wilderness experience; some for the sake of learning; some for the opportunity to experiment with hiking gear; some to play with their GPS receiver and maps. Some like hard exercise and some don't. I don't think it is really fair to say that you question his motives just because his interests and priorities differ from yours. I don't think you meant it this way, but when you say you question his motives, it sounds like you are accusing him of being dishonest or deceptive.


Idea man and business man are two very different jobs.

Doug
I'll be the first to admit that we are all out there to "hike our own hike". It's just that Ray wrote a book on his recommended routes and i noticed that whenever he had a choice, he seemed to take the roadwalk and many of these times, it skipped my most favorite sections of the whole trail.
It makes me wonder if perhaps he never knew that and was just "running for the border" as they say, or he is just trying to point out the short cuts???
Many people practically worship Ray and i would like them to be enlightened to the fact that the "ray way" is very often the less scenic way.
Of course "To each his own"

Nean
07-09-2005, 02:27
Alright Tha Wookie, since you ask- and I really appreciate that kind way you did so. I'll discuss things -(preferably not statistics;)) w/ you till the cows come home. Known Ray since 94. Met at Rays former Western States Chapter. I'll stop here and say the Jenny I know is a wonderful person; remember I said Ray should be happy! If not for her I'd be tempted to believe those rumors being spread out -WEST. I'm not into rumor, but I will share my experiences. Ray can do the same. You can decide if I'm staightforward and honest, or not. I'd prefer to do it in front of Ray. In fact, please send this to him as I believe it to be cowardice to talk behind his back. IMHO Ray is a prima donna who hiked to validate his ego. Its too late to write the book on yesterdays What&When news. Its cool that you care about your friend. 2:20am?! Moooo

Nightwalker
07-11-2005, 00:40
2:20am?! Moooo
Moo to you too. You seem to have a real bone to pick. You might just get over it if you'll just do what it takes to get it over with.

12:40 AM here...

Tha Wookie
07-11-2005, 00:54
... I believe it to be cowardice to talk behind his back.
I agree with that statement. But you certainly don't seem like a coward to me.