View Full Version : Fleece Reconsidered
Something I wrote recently that has received some good traction. Thought people here may find it interesting. Basically, a look at the humble fleece jacket (http://www.pmags.com/fleece-revisited) that many of us here have eschewed at times in favor of more 'sexy' items like soft shell or puffies.
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Reconsidering the humble fleece jacket for outdoor use.
Over the years, my hiking style and choice of gear has evolved. I went from bulky and heavier clothing and gear to lighter and more compact choices for what I choose to use and carry.
Heavy leather boots became trail runners.
An MSR Whisperlite was replaced by a home made alcohol stove for three season solo use.
And I stopped wearing a fleece jacket and used a lined wind shirt or “mini-puffy”.
But just as my gear choices has changed, so has my view of gear itself.
Like many people who go from heavier to lighter gear, I fell into the trap of thinking “light is always right“.
Then I became a bit more intelligent about my gear and realized it is about taking the right gear (http://www.pmags.com/dirt-bagging) for my desired goals, comfort levels and the type of trip I am taking (http://www.pmags.com/best-gear-fallacy).
And that brings us to the humble fleece.
A stalwart of outdoor use for about 30 years now, it has been out of favor for many so-called “hard core’ (????) outdoors people. A soft shell has more versatility for people out backcountry skiing or climbing. Down or synthetic mini-puffies are a lighter and more compact insulation. And hard shells have become lighter and compact enough where outdoor enthusiasts wear them 100% of the time during cold , snowy or rainy conditions.
The humble fleece has been relegated to around town or as beater camping gear.
http://pmags2.jzapin.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/rei.jpg
And worn by strikingly handsome REI models!
But the more I look at the choices for outdoor use, seems a basic fleece jacket makes more sense for certain situations than the above clothing choices.
Yes, a fleece jacket is comparatively heavier and bulkier than the previously mentioned choices, but consider the advantages the fleece has for certain situations:
A soft shell, if it is an insulation layer too, does not breathe well. When it does get wet, it tends to stay wet. Fleece dries quicker.
Down or synthetic insulation is wonderful. However it is prone to be wetted out by a person’s own perspiration. Ditto for the ‘when getting wet, it tends to stay wet’ issue
Hard shells? No matter how open the pit zips are for ventilation, I find that for highly aerobic activity (such as Nordic backcountry skiing) that the moisture build up from my own body leads to frost inside the jacket itself. Brrr! http://www.pmags.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif
After struggling to find a good core insulation layer for backcountry skiing, I finally tried out my beater fleece jacket I’ve used for car camping. Much like the wool pants I also use (http://www.pmags.com/in-praise-of-the-original-soft-shell-wool-pants), the full-zip fleece jacket breathed remarkably well.
No moisture build-up from own sweat. My base layers stay dry. The moisture passes through quite nicely and sublimates into frost on the outside of my fleece. And any of the wonderful light and fluffy Colorado snow that falls is brushed quite easily off the jacket. For windy conditions or continuous downhills, I’ll throw on an unlined windbreaker (http://www.pmags.com/rain-gear-what-to-wear) over my fleece with excellent results.
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8395/8628857520_c787e30b9b.jpg
Another good use for a fleece jacket is for cold and rainy conditions such as encountered during shoulder seasons (http://www.pmags.com/shoulder-season-backpacking-the-time-in-between) in the Appalachians, the Pacific Northwest or similar areas. Couple the fleece with a light shell, and a fleece jacket is an excellent choice over more popular and modern choices. The fleece fibers do not collapse like down or even synthetic puffies either. In other words, fleece works better in wet conditions.
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http://pmags2.jzapin.com/gallery2/d/19574-2/aaz.jpg
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Basically, a fleece jacket has become my clothing piece of choice in conditions that warrant constantly keeping on my core insulation layer.
So which fleece to get?
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I’d suggest a full-zip jacket as opposed to a pull-over. The full zip allows more ventilation and versatility. I’d also avoid getting wind block fleece. The wind block properties limit the breathability of the clothing which negates the main advantage of the fleece.
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As far as quality, you can pick up a thrift store fleece almost anywhere if you just want to try out a fleece without investing a lot of money. In general, a higher end fleece tends to breathe better than a really cheap fleece. But, don’t go too crazy. http://www.pmags.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif My beater fleece seems to work well enough vs a $100 fleece. As a bonus, many companies give away fleece jackets as promotional items. These Corporate Synergy Company Kool-Aid fleece jackets are usually of very decent to good quality and can often be found in the thrifter. For $5 or so, not a bad price if you don’t mind wearing a company logo. http://www.pmags.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif
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For the amount of insulation itself, all depends on your activity and heat out-put level. A mid-weight (Polartec 200) type, works well for many conditions (http://www.backcountry.com/sc/fleece-jacket-guide). I find if it is too hot for a mid-weight fleece, than I personally am going to choose a different core insulation layer anyway. http://www.pmags.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif YMMV.
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Is a fleece jacket my choice for all conditions? Nope. It is heavier and bulkier than other choices. Anytime I keep my core insulation layer mainly stashed in my pack is when I will pack something different. Essentially, I use fleece for car camping, winter use and for shoulder seasons in cold and rainy areas.
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For these conditions, it works wonderfully.
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A simple fleece jacket should be looked at again for any active outdoor person’s choice of clothing.
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Note: Part of my idea of revisiting the use of a fleece was stumbling upon this wonderful site (http://wintertrekking.com/clothing/insulating-layers/) a few years back
Other than totally disagreeing with the anti-windbloc sentiment, I concur 100%. I still have & use every piece of fleece that I have ever purchased. My favorites: Polartec 100 Aircore button front shirts from LandsEnd, a pullover I bought in Calgary many moons ago, REI Windbloc jacket & pants & LL Bean Windbloc vests. The grand daddy of them all: a Sierra Designs Polartec 200/300 jacket with Gore WindStopper lining & pit zips purchased in Jasper, Alberta one July to keep from freezing to death the year that summer never arrived.
Wayne
I'd rather use a simple wind shirt and fleece myself. More versatility IMO. But, as always, YMMV. Worked for you and that's cool.
aaronthebugbuffet
04-08-2013, 19:21
High activity with cold and wet conditions, nothing beats a basic fleece.
How timely. Recently I've found myself reverting back to fleece jackets/sweaters for the exact same reasons you mention. I remember when fleece was in it's infancy and I was using it for whitewater kayaking. It would be soaked....I would remove it and sling it around in a circle a few times. When I put it back on it felt almost dry and kept me very warm. Try that with down.
Fleece is much more versatile than many of the "cool and new" items in vogue at the moment. Combine it with a breathable windshirt (with a hood for most versatility), and you have essentially the same protection as a light synthetic filled garment at the cost of a few ounces. You can't take the fill out of the filled garments to use it alone, nor to allow it to dry faster without the shell. You can do that with fleece - and fleece is so CHEAP! It's available at most discount stores for a few dollars and second-hand stores for even LESS. Save your money for the windbreaker, if you want to save weight. Fleece in several different weights and with/without sleeves will get you through nearly any weather, if combined intelligently with other clothing.
OK I admit it! I've never gone away from my fleece. The multi step program "let go of your fleece" never worked for me. I even sleep in a fleece liner with a foot box every day. My grandkids call it Grandpas blanky! And another thing, I sew all my fleece gear.
colorado_rob
04-08-2013, 20:08
Good stuff, and fleece definitely still has it's place. I have and still use 3 200-weight or greater fleece jackets. Most of the time, however, I grab a 100 weight microfleece quarter-zip top, worn much of the time over my base layer, and along with a Montbell thermawrap synthetic "jacket" (more of a zipped sweater) for when not moving or moving in extreme cold, and finally a hardshell for when the poop really hits the fan. With pit zips open and front zipper mostly open it works for me even moving.
The whole key is to find a versatile system of multiple layers that can be mixed and matched depending on conditions, and have that system allow you to move fairly well without sweating. And being lightweight (actual weight-wise) is very important to me. Heavy fleeces get mostly disqualified because of this last item. But, as said above, I do carry my heavy fleeces now and then for day trips and weekends in Colorado. No way on the AT (or other long hikes) though.
Train Wreck
04-08-2013, 20:21
OK I admit it! I've never gone away from my fleece. The multi step program "let go of your fleece" never worked for me. I even sleep in a fleece liner with a foot box every day. My grandkids call it Grandpas blanky! And another thing, I sew all my fleece gear.
If we're doing true confessions, I have a Snuggie that I'd take on the trail if it would fit into my pack :D
Tipi Walter
04-08-2013, 21:09
I'm torn between a good polartec fleece top and a lightweight down jacket. Of course, I never backpack in a down jacket no matter how cold (except for the rare -30 below we get in the Southeast once every 50 years i.e. January 1985) so it's used only in camp. My fleece jacket is rarely used in camp (since I bring down) and so for the most part I used it as a pillow. Except on the rare occasion when the temps dip to 10F or below and I'm moving, as the below fotog shows.
For the last couple years I ditched the fleece and hike in Icebreaker merino tops under a good gtx rain jacket. This system works down to around 10F or below. Even 0F.
http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2008/Trip-71/i-ZVndMh8/0/L/Trip%2071%20076-L.jpg
It has to be cold in the Southeast to backpack in fleece, at least in thick fleece. The rhodo leaves become thermometers to gauge the temps. This system is too hot unless it's 0F or below. I prefer a rain jacket over the merino which I'm wearing underneath.
Mags---Good article with appropriate highlighted links.
Another Kevin
04-08-2013, 23:19
Mags - good article! I quite agree about the utility of fleece, but thought that was just a symptom of being a clueless weekender and that eventually I'd achieve Real Hiker enlightenment.
In shoulder season weather, I even carry fleece pants for wearing in camp or sleeping in if it gets unexpectedly nippy.
Wise Old Owl
04-08-2013, 23:24
Excellent post- Mags I suggest you journal it.
Feral Bill
04-08-2013, 23:29
I like, and use, the "furry" Polartech for its warmth, breathability, and reasonable packability. I have yet to see the sense in thin down jackets, as they are only marginally lighter than thicker, warm ones, an plagued with the issues Mags describes. I also wouldn't object to a nice, loosely hand knit, midweight wool sweater. Sadly, my mom gave up knitting years ago.
Wise Old Owl
04-08-2013, 23:31
ah memories.... mom knitting... while listening to the radio... you can still get homemade sweaters... fleese though is a step above in warmth... just lacks the personal touch
You're preaching to the choir here--I love fleece. Micro fleece is my preferred base layer in the cold. Fleece jacket and pants for an outer layer in moderate winter temperatures. As the filling of the sandwich when the temperature drops, or the wind picks up. As you say, nothing beats it for moisture control.
SCRUB HIKER
04-09-2013, 03:17
Used my fleece-and-windshirt combo today on the downhill part of a training hike where it was 45 degrees and raining (stupid Oregon ...). I've recently decided not to bring any down garments for the beginning of my PCT hike ... even though I'm better at taking care of gear now and I'm sure I could carry down without trouble, it's still too touchy and too single-use for me to want for most of a thru-hike. Nothing says hiker-trash pedigree like an old-school, perma-stained, magenta Campmor fleece sweater with burn holes from campfire embers on the sleeves. If I am not 100% sure that the conditions will be dry, I pick that sweater over anything else for insulation.
daddytwosticks
04-09-2013, 07:18
Love my cheap fleece (100wt) pullover from Wal-Mart. Cost about 7 bucks on clearance. Sit by the fire in one of those $200 down jackets and watch the embers fly! If an ember scars by fleece, no biggy. :)
Chaco Taco
04-09-2013, 07:53
Yep, I have the NF Polartec fleece that is my go to right now. I like my down, but when getting into camp, my fleece goes on first thing
Back when fleece was fashionable I bought my hiking fleece from Old Navy. My favorite hiking hoodie is an old Columbia polar fleece - got burn marks and thin spots now. Fleece isn't magic - you will get soaked in the rain, but it stays fairly comfortable when wet and dries out pretty fast. If I were working outside in the weather I'd choose fleece unless it involved sawdust or sparks.
staehpj1
04-09-2013, 09:12
No reason for me to reconsider it since I never "unconsidered" it. I have fleece along every trip and only rarely take a down vest.
Picked up an unwashed wool sweater in a secondhand shop in Perigueux for $5.00 in 08. The lanolin smell told me it was worthy. My three fleece tops have all seen use this winter, but the sweater has gotten the most miles. It works whether wet, windy, or worse. Being a heavy sweater, I prefer a heavy sweater. Breathes.
Tipi Walter
04-09-2013, 09:18
I like, and use, the "furry" Polartech for its warmth, breathability, and reasonable packability. I have yet to see the sense in thin down jackets, as they are only marginally lighter than thicker, warm ones, an plagued with the issues Mags describes. I also wouldn't object to a nice, loosely hand knit, midweight wool sweater. Sadly, my mom gave up knitting years ago.
Yeah, I can't understand the popularity with thin down jackets either, what people call "puffies". Patagonia has their down sweaters and UL down shirt, Montbell has their Ex Light and Alpine Light and North Face has the Santiago and Thunderdown, etc. To me it's more fabric than down. I much prefer a real jacket like the WM Meltdown jacket or for extreme winter the Feathered Friends Icefall parka.
Since we're talking cold weather backpacking and hiking, I'd rather carry geese than fleece. Fleece isn't part of my standard winter load anymore, although it could work in the shoulder seasons.
Since we're talking cold weather backpacking and hiking, I'd rather carry geese than fleece. Fleece isn't part of my standard winter load anymore, although it could work in the shoulder seasons.
Obviously a different environment, but for the cold and dry conditions, I actually prefer to wear fleece while skiing. It is amazing who much the heat will pass out of my body and frost up on the outside.
My own rule of thumb with fleece is that if I am wearing it all the time, it is food contions for fleece. If I am mainly stowing the layer, I'll take something different.
treesloth
04-09-2013, 10:23
My Loki fleece is awesome, one of my fave pieces of gear. Built in neck gaiter and mittens, how can one go wrong? It's my de facto top any time I go to the woods, and for cold nights, the hood and gaiter work great for quilt sleeping.
Odd Man Out
04-09-2013, 10:46
Have your read Andrew Skurka's book. He says essentially the same thing. Here is the relevant section from his blog page.
http://andrewskurka.com/2012/stupid-light-not-always-right-or-better/
what you call the "light is always right" mistake, he calls "stupid light".
He lists a number of items that are often passed over for being too heavy, but are often good options because they are functional, reliable, durable, easy to use, and versatile. Plus they make your hiking days more efficient. The items that fit this category are fleece, gaiters, bug head nets, trekking poles, and soft water bottles.
Items that made his "stupid light" list, i.e. item he has packed because they were light but ultimately didn't provide enough advantage to justify the weight savings were CCF sleeping pads, poncho/tarp shelters, micro lights, UL hip belts and shoulder straps on packs.
His disclaimer would be that the best gear choice will vary based on the specific trip you are planning and your own specific needs. But the bottom line is that it is important to remember that the lightest gear option is not always the best choice.
Odd Man Out
04-09-2013, 10:50
I would also add that as a side sleeper who uses my clothes bag as a pillow, I need something bulky and soft anyway and so the fleece is a great option for me.
Tom Murphy
04-09-2013, 10:56
I can see a breathable fleece working as an other layer but I have had better luck with wool, especially when it is snowing.
I have a "wind pro" fleece jacket that sees extended use as a softshell in the shoulder seasons. A jack of all trades, master of none jacket - moderate warmth, moderately water proof, great wind shell; I just wish it had pit zips.
As a camp insulating layer that stays in the pack during the day, those light weight down shells are just perfect and make a nice addtion to the sleep system allowing me to carry a lighter bag.
All my base layers and socks are wool. I also have a heavy wool sweater that is a key insulating layer in the winter. I really like wool.
Items that made his "stupid light" list, i.e. item he has packed because they were light but ultimately didn't provide enough advantage to justify the weight savings were CCF sleeping pads,
I know Andrew reasonably well. I help guide trips with him as a matter of fact.
Overall, we tend to agree.
However, I find the utility of CCF to be better than air pads for me. I can take a pad and kneel on it in the snow for winter backpacking. I can drag it over by a campfire. Place it on rocks and so on and not worry about it. I simply do not care for air pads (though, I do use my wife's in winter coupled with a CCF). I realize that air pads work well for others, but not for my style of backpacking.
In fact, the foam pad I brought on the winter backpacking trip (http://www.pmags.com/winter-in-the-park-andrew-skurkas-winter-backpacking-trip) was invariably used by people when using the stove and in camp. Including Andrew. :)
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8517/8533291108_0698e8c3dc.jpg
I know Andrew reasonably well. I help guide trips with him as a matter of fact.
Overall, we tend to agree.
However, I find the utility of CCF to be better than air pads for me. I can take a pad and kneel on it in the snow for winter backpacking. I can drag it over by a campfire. Place it on rocks and so on and not worry about it. I simply do not care for air pads (though, I do use my wife's in winter coupled with a CCF). I realize that air pads work well for others, but not for my style of backpacking.
In fact, the foam pad I brought on the winter backpacking trip (http://www.pmags.com/winter-in-the-park-andrew-skurkas-winter-backpacking-trip) was invariably used by people when using the stove and in camp. Including Andrew. :)
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8517/8533291108_0698e8c3dc.jpg
Good point. Great pic!
Odd Man Out
04-09-2013, 14:06
On the link he specifically says he prefers the air pad when he knows he will be sleeping on hard surfaces, because the CCF pad on hard surfaces are not comfortable enough for him. Again, the best choice depends on both the individual and the trip.
Snowleopard
04-09-2013, 15:07
The weak link in cheap fleece jackets is the zipper. If there are zipper problems, use it as a pullover (i.e., don't zip it all the way open). If you can sew, replace the zipper with a better one.
There are situations where a good puffy down jacket is better (dry, cold, winter below 0F), but if money is a problem a bunch of fleeces in increasing sizes works just fine, just heavier and bulkier.
Check thrift shops, Salvation Army, Goodwill for almost free fleece. Just be sure it's not a cotton fleece. Name brands or Polartec brand fleece might be a little better, but no-name brands work fine.
FarmerChef
04-09-2013, 15:51
I know Andrew reasonably well. I help guide trips with him as a matter of fact.
Overall, we tend to agree.
However, I find the utility of CCF to be better than air pads for me. I can take a pad and kneel on it in the snow for winter backpacking. I can drag it over by a campfire. Place it on rocks and so on and not worry about it. I simply do not care for air pads (though, I do use my wife's in winter coupled with a CCF). I realize that air pads work well for others, but not for my style of backpacking.
In fact, the foam pad I brought on the winter backpacking trip (http://www.pmags.com/winter-in-the-park-andrew-skurkas-winter-backpacking-trip) was invariably used by people when using the stove and in camp. Including Andrew. :)
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8517/8533291108_0698e8c3dc.jpg
What's that yellow snow next to the water container? :D Secret ingredient? Sorry, couldn't resist.
As to the fleece point, I have always hiked with fleece in the winter and shoulders and love it. I had been ogling the puffies thinking "surely they must be better." But I noticed that my fleece breathes better, and, best of all, it was totally free kitch from the office. If you were on the trail in northern TN/NC two weeks ago, you might have spied my kids walking down the trail in Angry Birds fleece sleeping pants. They had merino wool bottoms on but really liked the fleece over that when it was cold and windy. As soon as I hit camp, my fleece pants come on and I layer up with 100% wool/fleece products. And I too notice that even in driving snow, the snow just lands and freezes up on the outside of the fleece but it and I remain dry. When I'm ready, I just brush it all back off again. Love it, love it, love it.
I like wool for the stuff I keep on most of the time, and fleece for the extra layer I keep off most of the time, and a light wind/rain shell to seal the deal when needed.
On the link he specifically says he prefers the air pad when he knows he will be sleeping on hard surfaces, because the CCF pad on hard surfaces are not comfortable enough for him. Again, the best choice depends on both the individual and the trip.
Than obviously CCF is not stupid light then. ;)
TheYoungOne
04-15-2013, 12:16
Love my cheap fleece (100wt) pullover from Wal-Mart. Cost about 7 bucks on clearance. Sit by the fire in one of those $200 down jackets and watch the embers fly! If an ember scars by fleece, no biggy. :)
LOL I used the same Starter Fleece from Walmart, I think when they are not on sale they are still only $14 max. I use that fleece plus a baselayer, or just a poly shirt down to High 30's to high 40's while hiking and working up a sweat. I might also bring it for campwear if its going to be a cool summer night. I was hiking, climbing with it on just the other day at Lehigh Gap. It breathes well so you don't overheat, and I'm not afraid to do crazy rock scrammbles, or get tangled up on brush or thorns. I still looks and functions fine for a 2 year old fleece, and if I gets a rip I will not cry, I can just get another one.
I have a 2 different lightweight puffer jackets. One is down, while the other is primaloft. Both are not high end Patagonia, but honestly I just can't justify paying that much for their jackets. Unfortunately, just like North Face fleece, The Patagonia Nano Puff jackets and are becoming a fashion statement with some hikers and especially with people who don't even hike and only purchased it because its expensive and look pretty. All that will do is drive up the price for Patagonia, but it will also persuade other companies to create cheaper knockoffs. At the end of the day, I would not use a puffer jacket, unless I am at camp for the night in cold weather or its really cold while hiking. I really cannot justify dropping $200 or more for one, and I'm satisfied enough with using lesser priced knockoffs for the limited times I needed a puffer jacket.
I think Fleece is just more useful, however when you are talking cold weather, 300 weight fleeces or Monkeyman jackets are much more bulky than a puffer, so if I was on a thru hike, and really needed to consolidated weight and space, and did not want to risk shipping my cold weather stuff back home too soon or use bounce boxes too much, I would go with a puffer over a heavy fleece.