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dukakis
04-27-2013, 06:09
I am currently South of the NOC. There are two thruhikers writing their names in black permanent marker on everything imaginable. We have to stop every few miles to scratch the graffiti off. We approached them about it a few nights ago, but it seems to have gotten worse. If anyone knows a "Blu" or a "Waffles", can you please discourage them from continuing this behavior?

peakbagger
04-27-2013, 06:41
Hopefully you have contacted ATC ? . They can approach the appropriate managing agency to deal with them

Bronk
04-27-2013, 07:27
If any of their graffiti survives it will be considered an historic landmark in a few years. I found an old rusty Budweiser can near Wayah Bald...it was old enough that you needed an old fashioned can opener to open it. It looked nearly identical to a modern beer can, but because of arbitrary rules about its age its not considered litter, so I pitched it back in the creek where I found it.

Montana Mac
04-27-2013, 07:38
Fools names as faces are often found in public places! It will be this type of BS that will eventually force landowners to close their land.

treesloth
04-27-2013, 07:46
If any of their graffiti survives it will be considered an historic landmark in a few years. I found an old rusty Budweiser can near Wayah Bald...it was old enough that you needed an old fashioned can opener to open it. It looked nearly identical to a modern beer can, but because of arbitrary rules about its age its not considered litter, so I pitched it back in the creek where I found it.

Awesome! I've been looking to get rid of this antique gun case in my office that an old roommate left behind. I didn't know what to do until I read your info.. so, I figure today, I'll take it and pitch it in the Wekiva river. You know, since it's an antique and not considered litter. What a great idea to get rid of all your old unwanted stuff!

The Cleaner
04-27-2013, 07:57
There are some real ***holes on the trail this season.....

capehiker
04-27-2013, 08:11
If any of their graffiti survives it will be considered an historic landmark in a few years. I found an old rusty Budweiser can near Wayah Bald...it was old enough that you needed an old fashioned can opener to open it. It looked nearly identical to a modern beer can, but because of arbitrary rules about its age its not considered litter, so I pitched it back in the creek where I found it.


What dafuq?

treesloth
04-27-2013, 08:23
What dafuq?

I had a similar reaction. Bronk seems to have been on here in a while and I don't think he's trolling, but c'mon. That sounded a little odd. It's like.... why??

zukiguy
04-27-2013, 08:23
Think of it this way....in years past you had folks on the trail that were in transition and had an adventurous spirit. I'm guessing the most common demographic would be folks that just graduated or at least terminated college and were in the process of finding employment. Now just imagine how many more people we have these days that are "finding employment" or in many cases unemployment. These folks are basically just homeless people living a nomadic life on the trail. I doubt many of them have the same respect for the trail or their fellow hikers.

Wise Old Owl
04-27-2013, 08:38
I am currently South of the NOC. There are two thruhikers writing their names in black permanent marker on everything imaginable. We have to stop every few miles to scratch the graffiti off. We approached them about it a few nights ago, but it seems to have gotten worse. If anyone knows a "Blu" or a "Waffles", can you please discourage them from continuing this behavior?


You are an adult - their actions are like children, give them a choice hand over the markers or else... (you figure out the rest)

tiptoe
04-27-2013, 10:01
Last time I checked, "leave no trace" meant just that.

shakey_snake
04-27-2013, 10:58
"Tagging" is just generally an obnoxious behavior.

Unfortunately, participants seem to think they are engaging in some sort of tagging subculture that only fellow taggers can appreciate their "handstyle" and what not. That said, the fact that all of the thousands of people attempting a thruhike aren't of the same mindset about everything shouldn't come as a surprise to you.

But "HYOH" has it's limits and we should most certainly draw the line at destruction of our natural environment, which we, in the greater tradition of Muir, presume everyone on the AT is there to experience--to some degree. But is tagging shelters really destroying the "natural environment?" Does someone ****tily playing their ****ty steelpan in a shelter destroy the "natural environment?" Do we kick snorers out?

If someone is tagging trees, report them to the ATC. If it's something else, then **** those people, but really, understand you are on a hike with a lot of other people, who each have annoying habits, just as much as they have good about them. Embrace the good in people.

aficion
04-27-2013, 11:29
"Tagging" is just generally an obnoxious behavior.

Unfortunately, participants seem to think they are engaging in some sort of tagging subculture that only fellow taggers can appreciate their "handstyle" and what not. That said, the fact that all of the thousands of people attempting a thruhike aren't of the same mindset about everything shouldn't come as a surprise to you.

But "HYOH" has it's limits and we should most certainly draw the line at destruction of our natural environment, which we, in the greater tradition of Muir, presume everyone on the AT is there to experience--to some degree. But is tagging shelters really destroying the "natural environment?" Does someone ****tily playing their ****ty steelpan in a shelter destroy the "natural environment?" Do we kick snorers out?

If someone is tagging trees, report them to the ATC. If it's something else, then **** those people, but really, understand you are on a hike with a lot of other people, who each have annoying habits, just as much as they have good about them. Embrace the good in people.

Naah...just turn em in.

Sarcasm the elf
04-27-2013, 12:49
"Tagging" is just generally an obnoxious behavior.

Unfortunately, participants seem to think they are engaging in some sort of tagging subculture that only fellow taggers can appreciate their "handstyle" and what not. That said, the fact that all of the thousands of people attempting a thruhike aren't of the same mindset about everything shouldn't come as a surprise to you.

But "HYOH" has it's limits and we should most certainly draw the line at destruction of our natural environment, which we, in the greater tradition of Muir, presume everyone on the AT is there to experience--to some degree. But is tagging shelters really destroying the "natural environment?" Does someone ****tily playing their ****ty steelpan in a shelter destroy the "natural environment?" Do we kick snorers out?

If someone is tagging trees, report them to the ATC. If it's something else, then **** those people, but really, understand you are on a hike with a lot of other people, who each have annoying habits, just as much as they have good about them. Embrace the good in people.

Go and spend some time volunteering with a trail maintenance crew an then let us know what you think when someone defaces/destroys the things that you have worked hard build.

Astro
04-27-2013, 12:55
Defacing someone else's property is not a value neutral activity. They can call it tagging, but it is still vandalism, which is wrong and a crime.

Yes people on the trail can have "different" value systems, but that does not make them right. No more than them thinking "2 + 2 = 5" makes it 5 instead of 4.

realdeal64
04-27-2013, 18:52
Stupid people are unfortunately everywhere.

Wise Old Owl
04-27-2013, 20:51
Defacing someone else's property is not a value neutral activity. They can call it tagging, but it is still vandalism, which is wrong and a crime.

Yes people on the trail can have "different" value systems, but that does not make them right. No more than them thinking "2 + 2 = 5" makes it 5 instead of 4.


You should take the train from Philadelphia to Maine...Tagging everywhere.

BZ853
04-27-2013, 21:46
I am currently South of the NOC. There are two thruhikers writing their names in black permanent marker on everything imaginable. We have to stop every few miles to scratch the graffiti off. We approached them about it a few nights ago, but it seems to have gotten worse. If anyone knows a "Blu" or a "Waffles", can you please discourage them from continuing this behavior?

I cant believe no one else caught this. For anyone curious go look up "blue waffle" and select images. Also dont do this in front of children.
I sorry.

Wise Old Owl
04-27-2013, 22:01
Blue Waffles is widely considered in two theoretical aspects. There are people who would never believe of anything called as the “Blue Waffle” while some who do, already know that there is no such thing officially called as the name already hints. The name of the disease comes from a slang name mainly because the disease involves blue coloring of the human genitals. We’ll discuss both sides of the disease since its spreading very widely. People must remember that the disease has not yet been claimed by any medical institution so we’ll just be explaining what we’ve heard about it. If you believe you’re somehow related to the disease, you must consult a physician or an expert doctor to help you out with your cure. You may find related information about this disease on other websites as well but as a blogger, I’ve seen a lot of false information mentioned and being spread on other websites by unauthentic people. This current article will provide you with some brief details about it.

Details of the Blue Waffles Disease
The Blue Waffles disease appears closely related to ‘vaginitis’ disease as the symptoms are seen to be the same. This can surely be considered as the worse form of vaginitis. A general overview of the disease would make us conclude a few facts about it. Some symptoms of the disease include but are not limited to,



Burning Feeling inside the vulva
Irritation around the lower body parts
Feeling of Abdominal filling
Discoloration of affected parts
Sore genitals
Skin getting dry

No Directions
04-28-2013, 04:58
Jay Bird 2011 is a name I have seen carved in many signs along the AT in GA. What an @$$.

ChuckBrown
04-28-2013, 05:02
Um...what?

aficion
04-28-2013, 05:38
Um...what?

Still April.... no foolin',
Youngsters need some schoolin'
So prikith hem nature.....................................:rolley es:

Astro
04-28-2013, 09:16
You should take the train from Philadelphia to Maine...Tagging everywhere.

That still does not make it right (or legal). :(

Wise Old Owl
04-28-2013, 09:23
Yes you are right Astro, I am a little board right now so I am going down the hardware store for some spraypaint.... :rolleyes:

doritotex
04-28-2013, 09:30
These "thru hikers", will never be back on the sections of the trail that they are defacing. They don't care! They are like male dogs peeing on everything in sight. It gets worse and worse every year. For those of us who live near the trail and are out hiking all year round, it is like they are disrepecting my back yard. Amateurs with a big sense of entitlement.

daddytwosticks
04-28-2013, 10:47
Are there piles of toilet paper and poo all alongside the trail this year? Last year at this time it was really bad down in this area.

max patch
04-28-2013, 11:29
You should take the train from Philadelphia to Maine...Tagging everywhere.

What does that have to do with the AT?

rocketsocks
04-28-2013, 12:46
Are there piles of toilet paper and poo all alongside the trail this year? Last year at this time it was really bad down in this area.Nasty Buzzards!:mad:

Wise Old Owl
04-28-2013, 12:54
What does that have to do with the AT?


Actually I took the train to Maine to hike the AT!

yaduck9
04-28-2013, 14:04
These "thru hikers", will never be back on the sections of the trail that they are defacing. They don't care! They are like male dogs peeing on everything in sight. It gets worse and worse every year. For those of us who live near the trail and are out hiking all year round, it is like they are disrepecting my back yard. Amateurs with a big sense of entitlement.



perhaps the hiking community should post pics of their handiwork and their faces and see if that has an affect on their behavior, just a thought.

Rock Lobster
04-28-2013, 14:06
Two hikers (Chopsticks and Soleman) were really bad last year about tagging everything. When I got home from my hike I managed to find one of them on Facebook and sent him this message. He never replied...

"Hello Soleman. We've never met, but I just finished a SOBO hike from Harper's Ferry to Springer. While at ************, I saw your sign-in with both your trail and real names and wrote them down to look up when I got home.


You see, I just hiked through 500+ miles of your graffiti, and wanted to let you know how incredibly annoying it is to see your tag on every shelter and sign I passed. It's not only disrespectful of the trail, but also all of the people who work tirelessly to construct and maintain it. Can you imagine raising $20,000 for the materials to build a shelter, arranging for the forest service to fly it in over 40 helicopter trips, and then getting together 50 volunteers to spend 2-3 weekends hiking up a mountain to assemble everything, with no thought of personal recognition...and then coming back to find some self-important ******* had tagged it?


I also thought you should know the following facts. First, some other enterprising and clever hiker following you decided to fight fire with fire. Now most of your tags have been modified to read "ASSHOLEman 2012," leaving you with quite a legacy. Second, with one solitary exception I met in Tennessee, all of the dozens of hikers I met (with whom the subject came up) agree that you are, in fact, an *******. Finally, armed with your real name (and the confirmation provided by your publicly available Facebook photos that you are, indeed on the AT this year), I have taken the liberty of reporting your vandalism to the ATC, the Forest Service, and the National Park Service. Next time you're in a forest service shelter, you may want to read the signs detailing possible penalties for defacing their property.


Enjoy the rest of your hike,


Rock Lobster"

Coosa
04-28-2013, 15:22
Since all of this is quite public ... maybe Backpacker Magazine, the AT Journeys Magazine, American Hiker Magazine, and others could be convinced to print some articles on this type of vandalism ... complete with public photos and names.

OR you who have seen the handiwork ... WRITE A LETTER and send in a photo ... it'll probably be published.

Coosa

pelenaka
04-28-2013, 16:31
It would be great if there was a news/mag story on tagging along with a follow up of the most recent prosecuted cases. Just to show them that that they will be reported & get their hands slapped.
Then that article could posted along the trail.

Years ago one of my local news stations did a piece on illegal dumping on vacant urban lots. Turned out that a majority of the trash could be traced back to the suburbs by either the trash or license plates. The look of surprise on one guy's face when he was busted was priceless.

Rock Lobster, u rock !

HikerMom58
04-28-2013, 20:28
I think Rifle took a brand new shelters virginity.

I believe you are correct, Rasty... HB said he saw it. It all boils down 2 whether or not you believe he did or didn't realize it was wrong. I believe him when he said he really didn't think it was wrong. He apologized. I respect your opinion if you think he lied. :D

max patch
04-28-2013, 20:44
Not that it makes it ok, but wasn't a new shelter. It was either Blue or Deep Gap and they are both 25 - 30 years old.

Wise Old Owl
04-28-2013, 20:46
So dissapointed MP .. ya didn't read page two!

Malto
04-28-2013, 21:42
One of the problems with persistent graffiti is that once it hits a critical mass, some people stupidly see it as socially acceptable to add to it (I think the phenomenon is called Broken Window Theory in criminology).

I was up at the brand spanking new Rausch Gap Shelter in PA. Not a single mark on the shelter after several months. I go up there almost every week to shovel gravel into the diversion wells. I will public ally humiliate the first few hikers who mark up that shelter. With no marks we will see who has the €£€¥# to mark it up first.

Oak88
04-28-2013, 23:57
I spoke to The Waffles in question two days ago just North of the NOC. I told him some friends of mine wanted to catch up with him and have a chat about him writing his name on every shelter and sign. I told him they aren't happy. He mumbled a reply. He is at the Fontana Village Resort now. Since I spoke to him I haven't seen his name emblazened on any sign or shelter. I hope he took the rather direct hint.

adamkrz
04-29-2013, 06:26
It isn't just shelters, I remember seeing alot of trees with names/dates carved into them. Up in this area beech trees are like taged quite often.

Fur Queue
04-29-2013, 09:04
It's all relative....the shelters used to be beautiful trees...

Alligator
04-29-2013, 10:22
Boy Scout issue split out to here
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?94827-Scout-Graffiti-Split-from-Thruhiker-Vandalism

Don H
04-29-2013, 14:26
Why would you bring up the Boy Scout thread, so we can compare them to thru-hikers?

Astro
04-29-2013, 15:29
Why would you bring up the Boy Scout thread, so we can compare them to thru-hikers?

Don H,
Gator just "split out" the post (and following posts) about Boy Scout's that wrote their name in a shelter, so this thread could continue to focus just on vandalism on the trail in general. Made a lot of sense it was really diverging into two different threads anyway.

Lauriep
04-29-2013, 17:05
Vandalizing or writing graffiti on shelters (or any trail feature on the Appalachian National Scenic Trail—natural or manmade) is usually illegal. On the ethical side, it is counter to Leave No Trace principles, which are designed to protect the environment and allow people to enjoy wild places unspoiled by man. Graffiti detracts from the primitive setting that the A.T. is intended to provide. If that’s not enough, graffiti creates more work for volunteers, whose time and energies are better spent on other activities.

The National Park Service Chief Ranger for the Appalachian Trail said recently, “We have successfully prosecuted at least one graffiti artist in the recent past and will continue to pursue anyone [who insists] on tagging.”

If you observe someone tagging or writing graffiti on the A.T., or encounter them after the fact, please tell that person that it’s inappropriate and illegal. (There are some people who may not realize that tagging is both inappropriate and illegal on the A.T.).

If you see recent vandalism, please note the location, take a photograph, and send it to incident@appalachiantrail.org. Better yet, fill out a more in-depth incident report form by going to www.appalachiantrail.org/incidents (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/incidents).The Appalachian Trail Conservancy does not do law enforcement, but we will see that reports are shared with the appropriate land-managing and/or law enforcement agencies.

Laurie Potteiger
ATC

Lugnut
04-29-2013, 22:48
The National Park Service Chief Ranger for the Appalachian Trail said recently, “We have successfully prosecuted at least one graffiti artist in the recent past and will continue to pursue anyone [who insists] on tagging.”


Was it Cubby '08 ? He was everywhere.

Kookork
04-29-2013, 23:43
If any of their graffiti survives it will be considered an historic landmark in a few years. I found an old rusty Budweiser can near Wayah Bald...it was old enough that you needed an old fashioned can opener to open it. It looked nearly identical to a modern beer can, but because of arbitrary rules about its age its not considered litter, so I pitched it back in the creek where I found it.

When I was thru hiking the Bruce Trail , the guidebook was mentioning a tree on the trail that was Carved by a a polish soldier in 1943( I guess). He was training in Canadian woods to join second world war. He carved a sentence in Polish language which meant: Poland will never die. Now this tree is part of the history 70 years later and I was so happy to find it and take a picture of this rare historic Canadian WWII memorabilia.

When he carved this sentence there was no trail there( Bruce trail was opened in 1962) and it was really emotional and historical time. It has nothing to do with a hiker to trash the trail with spray paint and destroy the trail for every body after him/herself. It is either ultimate ignorance or ultimate selfishness or both to do graffiti on a public trail.

shakey_snake
04-30-2013, 00:09
Go and spend some time volunteering with a trail maintenance crew an then let us know what you think when someone defaces/destroys the things that you have worked hard build.


Eh, your sense of ownership over "the things that you have worked hard build" is exactly the same attitude that drives tagging.

If you can't do trail maintenance without doing it simply to give to future hikers, then why do it? Serving is a wonderful thing--don't overcomplicate it.

My grandma always told me that, "one hates the things that he see in others that he sees in himself." Seems relevant here.

Kookork
04-30-2013, 00:42
Eh, your sense of ownership over "the things that you have worked hard build" is exactly the same attitude that drives tagging.

If you can't do trail maintenance without doing it simply to give to future hikers, then why do it? Serving is a wonderful thing--don't overcomplicate it.

My grandma always told me that, "one hates the things that he see in others that he sees in himself." Seems relevant here.

The attitude that drives tagging is selfishness and ignorance. It has nothing to do with the sense of ownership of trail maintenance people. Nobody likes to see his/her hard work ruined for no apparent reason.

I deeply respect and believe in what your grandma said but I don't get the connection with trail vandalism. My grandpa always told me" Common sense is not that common, don't waste your time expecting it from everybody".

Bronk
04-30-2013, 00:51
When I was thru hiking the Bruce Trail , the guidebook was mentioning a tree on the trail that was Carved by a a polish soldier in 1943( I guess). He was training in Canadian woods to join second world war. He carved a sentence in Polish language which meant: Poland will never die. Now this tree is part of the history 70 years later and I was so happy to find it and take a picture of this rare historic Canadian WWII memorabilia.

When he carved this sentence there was no trail there( Bruce trail was opened in 1962) and it was really emotional and historical time. It has nothing to do with a hiker to trash the trail with spray paint and destroy the trail for every body after him/herself. It is either ultimate ignorance or ultimate selfishness or both to do graffiti on a public trail.


I guess my point is that its a pretty arbitrary standard and a moving target. There are places in the midwest where the wagon trains stopped during the westward migration and people wrote their names all over rock walls. There are also places in the west where it is so dry that empty tin cans of foodstuffs have survived from this same period where the migrants were really sloppy with their trash. I don't view this as any different than what some people do on the AT, yet today these places are viewed as valuable records of an historic time in American history.

The whole idea of Leave No Trace makes a broad assumption that human beings have no right to leave their mark on the earth...a concept which history disputes.

Please don't misunderstand, I'm not advocating that people throw their trash around and cover the AT with grafitti...what I am saying is that perhaps the attitudes about this sort of thing are out of line with reality and lack an historical perspective.

Some people may view the shelters and signage put up by volunteer groups as no different than the trash and grafitti being discussed here, and I'd probably argue that trying to differentiate between the two is arbitrary at best.

Bronk
04-30-2013, 01:05
The attitude that drives tagging is selfishness and ignorance. It has nothing to do with the sense of ownership of trail maintenance people. Nobody likes to see his/her hard work ruined for no apparent reason.

I deeply respect and believe in what your grandma said but I don't get the connection with trail vandalism. My grandpa always told me" Common sense is not that common, don't waste your time expecting it from everybody".


I think perhaps what he is saying is that people who tag are challenging the notion that the maintainers had the right to blight the land with a shelter or sign or blaze to begin with.

Perhaps Cubby '08 hates the fact that people have removed much of his handiwork after having worked so hard and walked so many hundreds of miles to leave his mark on the trail. I say again, all arbitrary distinctions. I think people get too riled up over this stuff.

Kookork
04-30-2013, 01:52
I think perhaps what he is saying is that people who tag are challenging the notion that the maintainers had the right to blight the land with a shelter or sign or blaze to begin with.

Perhaps Cubby '08 hates the fact that people have removed much of his handiwork after having worked so hard and walked so many hundreds of miles to leave his mark on the trail. I say again, all arbitrary distinctions. I think people get too riled up over this stuff.

I get your point. We can discus it here in whiteBlaze about the good and bad and ugly things about shelters and signs and blaze. I think the shelters and signs and blaze serve a purpose and were made with best intentions but graffiti has no purpose and no good intention behind it.

Bronk
04-30-2013, 02:38
I get your point. We can discus it here in whiteBlaze about the good and bad and ugly things about shelters and signs and blaze. I think the shelters and signs and blaze serve a purpose and were made with best intentions but graffiti has no purpose and no good intention behind it.

I've rarely seen grafitti that was done with any kind of malicious intent...I'd say most people that engage in it have good intentions, though some may argue those intentions are misguided. And likewise it serves a purpose...though you may disagree with that purpose.

And I've seen trail maintainers on here talk about how much work they put into building and maintaining a shelter and all the trail maintenence they do and then alternatively talk about how they poured out jugs of water that someone left by the road when water sources were dry or dismantled fire rings they found on the trail that they decided didn't belong there. One person's hard work, good intentions and "serve a purpose" are clearly somebody else's nuisance. Everyone has a different perspective. I'm not trying to pass judgement on anyone, just pointing out if people take a step back and get a broader view they might not be so quick to cast stones.

rickb
04-30-2013, 06:10
One person's hard work, good intentions and "serve a purpose" are clearly somebody else's nuisance. Everyone has a different perspective. I'm not trying to pass judgement on anyone, just pointing out if people take a step back and get a broader view they might not be so quick to cast stones.

Sometimes when individuals have different perspectives on what is an acceptable activity, a legitimate authority puts rules, regulations and laws in place to settle the issue.

Laurie P's post removes any doubt such is the case with graffiti.

Lone Wolf
04-30-2013, 06:19
shelters are ugly. graffiti doesn't make them any uglier

Don H
04-30-2013, 06:20
Has anyone ever been prosecuted and fined for defacing property on the AT?

aficion
04-30-2013, 06:26
Some people may view the shelters and signage put up by volunteer groups as no different than the trash and grafitti being discussed here, and I'd probably argue that trying to differentiate between the two is arbitrary at best.

I would argue that to differentiate between the two is both simple and important, and that those who can not grasp this should be turned in to the authorities when they vandalize the property of others.

Rasty
04-30-2013, 07:07
shelters are ugly. graffiti doesn't make them any uglier

True.............

rickb
04-30-2013, 07:12
Has anyone ever been prosecuted and fined for defacing property on the AT?

Yes. See post #44 in this thread.

Bronk
04-30-2013, 07:38
Sometimes when individuals have different perspectives on what is an acceptable activity, a legitimate authority puts rules, regulations and laws in place to settle the issue.

Laurie P's post removes any doubt such is the case with graffiti.

You miss my point entirely...laws generally don't change people's behavior, especially when they aren't backed up by any real enforcement. Prosecuting people for grafitti is nearly impossible because they generally do it anonymously when nobody else is around and/or the logistics of the situation make it impossible to find out who did it or prove it or bring them to justice. The reality is that even if you could prove who did it by the time a report is made and the wheels set in motion the person who did it is long gone. Given a witness who saw the person do it, a way to identify the person, etc, charges could be filed and a warrant for arrest issued, but from a practical standpoint most jurisdictions will not extradite any farther than the neighboring counties for such a minor charge.

The problem has to be solved another way.

Coosa
04-30-2013, 07:48
Aren't the SHELTER JOURNALS the proper place for hiker graffiti? Seems to this Senior citizen that a small sign on the Shelter wall could incorporate a few of the usual "LNT" instructions and a statement that tagging and graffiti art will be preserved if placed in the Shelter Journal but removed if placed elsewhere.

Of course, human nature being what it is, one graffiti artist will fill an entire Journal leaving no space for the next person.

Shelter Maintainers will need to make sure new Notebooks are always available as they fill up with hiker art.

Just an idea.

Coosa

Coosa
04-30-2013, 07:55
Shelters are NOT ugly when it's storming on the Trail or snowing ... THEN they are Palaces.

Sometimes one's perspective is dependent on the weather.

(Whether or not the hiker needs a shelter due to weather.)

Coosa

Sarcasm the elf
04-30-2013, 08:48
Eh, your sense of ownership over "the things that you have worked hard build" is exactly the same attitude that drives tagging. If you can't do trail maintenance without doing it simply to give to future hikers, then why do it? Serving is a wonderful thing--don't overcomplicate it. My grandma always told me that, "one hates the things that he see in others that he sees in himself." Seems relevant here.You have managed to post one of the most illogical responses I've ever seen in this site, that is quite an accomplishment. I don't even know how to respond to it. For what it's worth my grandmother offered me the same advice and I can assure you that she would be livid if she ever found out that I twisted those words of wisdom to try and justify vandalizing public property.

Astro
04-30-2013, 09:15
You have managed to post one of the most illogical responses I've ever seen in this site, that is quite an accomplishment. I don't even know how to respond to it. For what it's worth my grandmother offered me the same advice and I can assure you that she would be livid if she ever found out that I twisted those words of wisdom to try and justify vandalizing public property.

+1 Elf. Reading this thread makes we wonder if some posters are just trolling, or are they that far removed from reality. Hopefully this thread can help enlighten them. Thanks for all you do both on the trail and posting on WB in pursuit of LNT and making the AT a better place. :)

perdidochas
04-30-2013, 10:08
I've rarely seen grafitti that was done with any kind of malicious intent...I'd say most people that engage in it have good intentions, though some may argue those intentions are misguided. And likewise it serves a purpose...though you may disagree with that purpose.

Malicious intent isn't the point. The point is that defacing public things make them less attractive to most of us, regardless of the reason.


And I've seen trail maintainers on here talk about how much work they put into building and maintaining a shelter and all the trail maintenence they do and then alternatively talk about how they poured out jugs of water that someone left by the road when water sources were dry or dismantled fire rings they found on the trail that they decided didn't belong there. One person's hard work, good intentions and "serve a purpose" are clearly somebody else's nuisance. Everyone has a different perspective. I'm not trying to pass judgement on anyone, just pointing out if people take a step back and get a broader view they might not be so quick to cast stones.

Well the two examples that you give are counter to each other. The water jug thing, I agree is on the silly side. Why get rid of perfectly good water. Fire rings are another. They tend to proliferate, and basically cause a mess. Permanent fire rings should only exist at decided upon permanent campsites (in LNT terms, sacrificial sites), and there is no need to make a new fire ring if there's a perfectly good one at a campsite.

wcgornto
04-30-2013, 10:47
shelters are ugly. graffiti doesn't make them any uglier

Some shelters are ugly. Others are not.

ALL shelters are uglier with graffiti than without.

importman77
04-30-2013, 11:18
It amazes me how many people are finding ways to excuse the thoughtless, selfish, ILLEGAL actions of others. Sadly, it's a sign of the world we live in. People make excuses for everything now. Let me put this matter in terms everyone should be able to understand; THE SHELTERS DO NOT BELONG TO YOU. YOU DIDN'T BUILD THEM OR PAY FOR THEM, AND THEY ARE NOT ON YOUR LAND. THEREFORE, YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO DAMAGE OR DEFACE THEM IN ANY WAY. I wonder how many of those who are excusing these actions would feel the same way if someone was tagging the walls of their homes???

aficion
04-30-2013, 11:27
It amazes me how many people are finding ways to excuse the thoughtless, selfish, ILLEGAL actions of others. Sadly, it's a sign of the world we live in. People make excuses for everything now. Let me put this matter in terms everyone should be able to understand; THE SHELTERS DO NOT BELONG TO YOU. YOU DIDN'T BUILD THEM OR PAY FOR THEM, AND THEY ARE NOT ON YOUR LAND. THEREFORE, YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO DAMAGE OR DEFACE THEM IN ANY WAY. I wonder how many of those who are excusing these actions would feel the same way if someone was tagging the walls of their homes???

Hear hear!

max patch
04-30-2013, 11:29
Whitley Gap Shelter a few years ago and today. Take your pick.

http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/1/0/3/0/whitleygap-nov04-graffitti.jpg

http://www.trailgallery.com/photos/14027/tj14027_032813_191525_718401.jpg

HikerMom58
04-30-2013, 11:45
I like shelters because it provides for me one of my basic needs while backpacking. I don't use them for sleeping except in rainy weather, if room is available. I like having them around. If others consider them a "crutch".. so be it!
I can empathize with those who feel strongly about damaging or defacing the shelters on the AT. (especially with the ones who built them) I don't care for it but I don't feel as strongly about it, as some do. I would never do it myself. I would "speak up" to anyone I saw doing it.

The graffiti that really bothers me the absolute most is when it is done on rocks and trees. Especially rocks!! It just takes so much of the beauty away, when I'm out in the woods. I HATE it!! I have to let it go, tho...

HikerMom58
04-30-2013, 11:50
Whitley Gap Shelter a few years ago and today. Take your pick.

http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/1/0/3/0/whitleygap-nov04-graffitti.jpg

http://www.trailgallery.com/photos/14027/tj14027_032813_191525_718401.jpg

Good examples max patch!!!!!!!!!!!!!! God bless the ones that worked to fix up Whitley Gap Shelter.. they deserve all respect for their efforts!

forager5.56
04-30-2013, 11:59
vandalism? You mean like the presidential images blasted into the sacred mountains of the black hills? mitakayu oyasin(Lakota="all things are related")

forager5.56
04-30-2013, 12:02
vandalism? Like the presidential images blasted into the sacred mountains of the black hills? mitakayu oyasin(Lakota="all are related")

EllieMP
04-30-2013, 12:08
I totally agree with you Hiker Mom. I question the maturity of those who can deface nice things people create and even more the beauty of nature. If they are children, where are the adults who are teaching them right from wrong? If they are adults, young or old, what's wrong with you? Do you do this at home?

forager5.56
04-30-2013, 12:21
I like reading the epitats written on the shelters.Sometimes entertaining. One mans trash is anothers treasure. To deface nature is another matter.

shakey_snake
04-30-2013, 12:28
The attitude that drives tagging is selfishness and ignorance. It has nothing to do with the sense of ownership of trail maintenance people. Nobody likes to see his/her hard work ruined for no apparent reason.My point is it's not your work when you are voluntarily giving it to/for other people.


I deeply respect and believe in what your grandma said but I don't get the connection with trail vandalism.It's not about trail vandalism, it's about your relationship with trail maintenance.


You have managed to post one of the most illogical responses I've ever seen in this site, that is quite an accomplishment. I don't even know how to respond to it.
Well you did, an in so doing raised the pure lack of logic to an all time high. :D

jj2044
04-30-2013, 12:37
It amazes me how many people are finding ways to excuse the thoughtless, selfish, ILLEGAL actions of others. Sadly, it's a sign of the world we live in. People make excuses for everything now. Let me put this matter in terms everyone should be able to understand; THE SHELTERS DO NOT BELONG TO YOU. YOU DIDN'T BUILD THEM OR PAY FOR THEM, AND THEY ARE NOT ON YOUR LAND. THEREFORE, YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO DAMAGE OR DEFACE THEM IN ANY WAY. I wonder how many of those who are excusing these actions would feel the same way if someone was tagging the walls of their homes???

Thank you !!!! someone with a brain. there is no justification for "tagging" something that isn't yours

forager5.56
04-30-2013, 12:58
Maybe someone could clarify the legality of ownership. Who owns the shelters? Who owns the land? Do you own "your" land? Personally I feel the shelters should not exist. If you reallly love nature get rid of them. They are a breeding ground for disease. Tipis are better.

Bronk
04-30-2013, 13:11
Malicious intent isn't the point. The point is that defacing public things make them less attractive to most of us, regardless of the reason.



Well the two examples that you give are counter to each other. The water jug thing, I agree is on the silly side. Why get rid of perfectly good water. Fire rings are another. They tend to proliferate, and basically cause a mess. Permanent fire rings should only exist at decided upon permanent campsites (in LNT terms, sacrificial sites), and there is no need to make a new fire ring if there's a perfectly good one at a campsite.


My point is that different people have different perspectives and they don't always understand each other, and they don't always agree even when they do. The weekender has a different perspective than the thruhiker or the trail maintainer...sometimes they belong to one or several groups...they all use the trail for different purposes, and at times get angry at each other because of those disagreements. The trail is open to the public at large, and as such the needs of all of those users should be considered. There will always be bad actors in varying degree.

As to your point of "decided upon permanent campsites" I'm not sure there is a difference between the ones the trail maintainers decide and the ones decided by random trail users. Many different people use the trail in different ways and for different purposes. People camp in different places for different reasons.

I know of places that people have camped at for generations that the "authorities" have blocked access to for whatever reason without taking into account the points I've been trying to make. We are mostly talking about public land entrusted for public use, and all of the users need to be taken into account. Not everybody has the same use or perspective you do, and the reality is that when you are miles from town, nobody can enforce anything. People had best learn to communicate and get along, or hike their own hike and move along when people cannot agree.

forager5.56
04-30-2013, 13:27
variety is the spice of life. Some people would like to dictate exactly how you look talk etc. If the shelters all looked the same tommorow, there would be much dissapointment. The hiking experience should be about mans communion with nature. To the majority it appears that it is nothing but sport and right to passage. If the graffiti did not exist we would find something else to be critical about to fill the void.


hiking is a sport and i am the best at it. my pack is so light that it must be tethered to keep it from flying away. dont ask how much it cost because you could not afford it. i wear golden underwear and meanwhile there are people in this world starving to death.

HikerMom58
04-30-2013, 13:31
"There will always be bad actors in varying degree."


Yes sir, Bronk... you are correct. One can't ever control what others do... ever. You can only control oneself....

And going with forager5.56's comment - If everyone would be respectful of others ,we could all celebrate our differences and this world could still be a very interesting place.

yaduck9
04-30-2013, 13:36
variety is the spice of life. Some people would like to dictate exactly how you look talk etc. If the shelters all looked the same tommorow, there would be much dissapointment. The hiking experience should be about mans communion with nature. To the majority it appears that it is nothing but sport and right to passage. If the graffiti did not exist we would find something else to be critical about to fill the void.


talk about thread drift.......


hiking is a sport and i am the best at it. my pack is so light that it must be tethered to keep it from flying away. dont ask how much it cost because you could not afford it. i wear golden underwear and meanwhile there are people in this world starving to death.


golden underwear? thats a bit more then i needed to know

Two Speed
04-30-2013, 13:39
I am so disappointed. I read this whole stinkin' thread and couldn't find any mention of a thru-hiker getting vandalized.

Kookork
04-30-2013, 13:42
variety is the spice of life. Some people would like to dictate exactly how you look talk etc. If the shelters all looked the same tommorow, there would be much dissapointment. The hiking experience should be about mans communion with nature. To the majority it appears that it is nothing but sport and right to passage. If the graffiti did not exist we would find something else to be critical about to fill the void.


hiking is a sport and i am the best at it. my pack is so light that it must be tethered to keep it from flying away. dont ask how much it cost because you could not afford it. i wear golden underwear and meanwhile there are people in this world starving to death.

Your Majesty,Your Golden comments are too deep for me to understand.
May I carry your backpack for you and serve you while you put your precious feet on the trail?

HikerMom58
04-30-2013, 13:44
I am so disappointed. I read this whole stinkin' thread and couldn't find any mention of a thru-hiker getting vandalized.

Especially shocking they weren't going for the golden underwear...

yaduck9
04-30-2013, 13:46
Especially shocking they weren't going for the golden underwear...



where does one purchase golden underwear? ........REI?

Rasty
04-30-2013, 13:51
where does one purchase golden underwear? ........REI?

If you need to ask then you cannot afford golden underwear!

yaduck9
04-30-2013, 13:52
if you need to ask then you cannot afford golden underwear!


aaaahhhhhhhh!!!!

Old Hiker
04-30-2013, 14:54
where does one purchase golden underwear? ........REI?

I'm so sorry - I had to bing "golden underwear". Don't do it, I beg of you.

max patch
04-30-2013, 15:03
This is a real thread.

Not the Cafe.

daddytwosticks
04-30-2013, 16:03
I've hear of underwear "impregnated" with silver to cut the stank...but golden underware? :)

mfleming
04-30-2013, 16:12
Unfortunate annual event

Sarcasm the elf
04-30-2013, 16:19
This is a real thread.Not the Cafe.Clearly it's not the cafe, folks in there don't troll (Not directed at you max Patch).

AT Trail Magic
04-30-2013, 19:55
There was the same issue last year but w/ more destruction. Let the ATC know ASAP. I hope it's not the SAME thruhikers from Class of 2012 back to do more.:(

Lone Wolf
04-30-2013, 21:19
on and on and on about a minor issue. graffiti in/on shelters/signs is here to stay

rickb
04-30-2013, 21:28
on and on and on about a minor issue. graffiti in/on shelters/signs is here to stay

Not sure.

You see that quality of sharpie writing in the restrooms of certain kinds of bars, but very little of it at places that demand respect right next door.

The AT deserves that kind of respect and can get it.

Seatbelt
05-01-2013, 13:43
I'll have to admit to being mildly entertained while reading some of the graffitti in shelters, but I have never added any to it.
As far as LNT, do you think B McKaye or M Avery ever heard of it? I doubt it, or there would never have been the AT trail in the first place.....at least not as we know it.

daddytwosticks
05-01-2013, 15:48
Aren't white blazes on a tree a type of "tag"? :)

generoll
05-01-2013, 19:08
Aren't white blazes on a tree a type of "tag"? :)
..........no

keepinitsimple
05-02-2013, 14:55
Graffiti is wrong on the AT, end of story, lets all go back to the other posts now, or better yet, start a new one

perdidochas
05-02-2013, 16:09
I'll have to admit to being mildly entertained while reading some of the graffitti in shelters, but I have never added any to it.
As far as LNT, do you think B McKaye or M Avery ever heard of it? I doubt it, or there would never have been the AT trail in the first place.....at least not as we know it.

LNT allows for sacrificial areas. The AT trailbed is considered one of those.

lumberjaime
05-02-2013, 19:51
The three newest shelters (re)built by the AMC along the AT (Garfield Ridge, Eliza Brook, Kinsman Pond) have, luckily, been kept basically 100% graffiti free so far. Upon completion of these projects, the crews put together a journal that is kept in the shelter detailing the work and inspiration that went into building the shelters and simply ask people to not deface them. I think part of the success has been that the journals try to avoid the "but we worked so HARD on this, please don't screw it up" in favor of emphasizing that the shelters already have quite a bit of "character" already built in. Maybe wouldn't work with older shelters, but something to consider for those building new shelters or doing extensive repairs.

turtle fast
05-03-2013, 12:27
Unfortunately, those shelters will at some time get some graffiti whether from a boyscout, church group, or a thru hiker someone always has to be an idiot. I would like to believe graffiti can be combated by education...but as we can see its just a matter of time...it seems if one person starts it that others think its ok to do the same. It is the same mentality that some idiot purposely throwing litter to the side of the trail and not picking it up has. It truly a selfish act.

MuddyWaters
05-03-2013, 12:40
plain douchebags
what someone gets out of writing on things, I cant comprehend
the need a good poke in the eye from a hiking stick

I suppose, an answer might be to have camping permitted only at shelter/camping areas
With fees required, and a caretaker to oversee each so that they arent vandalized , and that trash isnt left behind.

Wait..this sounds familiar..

turtle fast
05-03-2013, 17:30
Or better yet when the fellow (its usually guys doing it) goes to sleep have the others in the shelter area graffiti his stuff and see how he likes it...I think a big permanent marker of the name Earl Schaffer, or Benton MacKaye on his backpack, or a middle finger on the side of his shelter may get a point across(I do not condone this though).

Sailing_Faith
05-04-2013, 12:33
Or better yet when the fellow (its usually guys doing it) goes to sleep have the others in the shelter area graffiti his stuff and see how he likes it...I think a big permanent marker of the name Earl Schaffer, or Benton MacKaye on his backpack, or a middle finger on the side of his shelter may get a point across(I do not condone this though).

Yea, maybe not such a great idea.... Funny one though. ;)

RED-DOG
05-04-2013, 14:36
My name is probably on Half the shelters along the AT nothing wrong with it.

MuddyWaters
05-04-2013, 15:56
My name is probably on Half the shelters along the AT nothing wrong with it.


In your mind.

The members of NAMBLA see nothing wrong with what they do either.

Obviously not everyone agrees.

Majority rules.

Malto
05-04-2013, 18:58
My name is probably on Half the shelters along the AT nothing wrong with it.

I agree completely. I love my name, it looks good in paint. Where do you live? I can paint it on your house. Nothing wrong with that.......though you likely have a different view. :datz

Capt Nat
05-04-2013, 19:12
Some folks will tag shelters, some will litter trails and hiways, some will leave their shopping carts in the parking lot. I return my shopping cart to the store, don't litter, don't deface property or nature. Some might be inspired by my behavior, most won't. No use worrying about something we can't change...

springerfever
05-04-2013, 19:17
Some folks will tag shelters, some will litter trails and hiways, some will leave their shopping carts in the parking lot. I return my shopping cart to the store, don't litter, don't deface property or nature. Some might be inspired by my behavior, most won't. No use worrying about something we can't change...

well said..........be true to yourself

Kookork
05-05-2013, 00:24
My name is probably on Half the shelters along the AT nothing wrong with it.

Bravo, but why did you spare half of the shelters???????

Next time put your sacred name on the other half and you will be the first thru vandalist. Quite an accomplishment.

Bronk
05-05-2013, 01:27
Majority rules.


LOL...if that were true there wouldn't be any grafitti on shelters. All evidence points to the guy with the sharpie ruling.

A point that has been lost in all of this discussion is that the AT is used by more than 2 million people every year. The people on here put together with all the thruhikers and trail maintainers represent a very small sampling of that group. Even if consensus could be reached here it would not constitute a majority. People use the trail for all kinds of different purposes and bring all kinds of different perspectives to that use, and I think a lot of people on here forget that because they are looking at the trail through a tiny little window of their own perspective.

Mountain Mike
05-05-2013, 01:36
LOL...if that were true there wouldn't be any grafitti on shelters. All evidence points to the guy with the sharpie ruling.

A point that has been lost in all of this discussion is that the AT is used by more than 2 million people every year. The people on here put together with all the thruhikers and trail maintainers represent a very small sampling of that group. Even if consensus could be reached here it would not constitute a majority. People use the trail for all kinds of different purposes and bring all kinds of different perspectives to that use, and I think a lot of people on here forget that because they are looking at the trail through a tiny little window of their own perspective.
So true Bronk! WB is just a small amount even of the thru-hiker/section hiker community.

MuddyWaters
05-05-2013, 01:52
LOL...if that were true there wouldn't be any grafitti on shelters. All evidence points to the guy with the sharpie ruling.

A point that has been lost in all of this discussion is that the AT is used by more than 2 million people every year. The people on here put together with all the thruhikers and trail maintainers represent a very small sampling of that group. Even if consensus could be reached here it would not constitute a majority. People use the trail for all kinds of different purposes and bring all kinds of different perspectives to that use, and I think a lot of people on here forget that because they are looking at the trail through a tiny little window of their own perspective.

dont know how you come to your conclusion, but its warped.

Obviously out of the millions that use the AT, only a few mark on shelters and other stuff, or there wouldnt be a an unmarked inch on anything.

Should be clear what the opinion of the majority of AT users is.....marking on stuff is wrong. Just like in regular life , marking up public items is bad and done by thoughtless jerks. No different from graffitti anywhere else. They get some personal thrill from writing their name on something. Most everyone else sees it and thinks" what a jerk that guy must be"

Mountain Mike
05-05-2013, 03:04
Millions on AT. So few markers. I do not condone it in the least bit. Just pointing out wb is a very small part of general hiking community.

Donde
05-05-2013, 03:53
I realize this statement lacks any logic. I find shelter tagging very distasteful, yet think of outhouse graffiti as a classic global art form. Any WB's who know about Wagner, can back me on this one.

Crazy Larry #1
05-05-2013, 07:10
Millions on AT. So few markers. I do not condone it in the least bit. Just pointing out wb is a very small part of general hiking community.
that's no lie about this place being a very small part of the community.......use to be the hottest site though and still has some standing....

Don H
05-05-2013, 07:43
that's no lie about this place being a very small part of the community.......use to be the hottest site though and still has some standing....

What is the current "hottest site"?

Sampson
05-05-2013, 07:44
My name is probably on Half the shelters along the AT nothing wrong with it.

Yeah, but you enjoy being an a-hole. Most people have a natural aversion to it.

HikerMom58
05-05-2013, 09:08
What is the current "hottest site"?

Facebook? ;)

RED-DOG is not an a-hole, FYI.

fireneck
05-05-2013, 13:17
Blue Waffles is widely considered in two theoretical aspects. There are people who would never believe of anything called as the “Blue Waffle” while some who do, already know that there is no such thing officially called as the name already hints. The name of the disease comes from a slang name mainly because the disease involves blue coloring of the human genitals. We’ll discuss both sides of the disease since its spreading very widely. People must remember that the disease has not yet been claimed by any medical institution so we’ll just be explaining what we’ve heard about it. If you believe you’re somehow related to the disease, you must consult a physician or an expert doctor to help you out with your cure. You may find related information about this disease on other websites as well but as a blogger, I’ve seen a lot of false information mentioned and being spread on other websites by unauthentic people. This current article will provide you with some brief details about it.

Details of the Blue Waffles Disease


The Blue Waffles disease appears closely related to ‘vaginitis’ disease as the symptoms are seen to be the same. This can surely be considered as the worse form of vaginitis. A general overview of the disease would make us conclude a few facts about it. Some symptoms of the disease include but are not limited to,



Burning Feeling inside the vulva
Irritation around the lower body parts
Feeling of Abdominal filling
Discoloration of affected parts
Sore genitals
Skin getting dry



http://www.snopes.com/medical/myths/bluewaffle.asp

Astro
05-05-2013, 16:11
Facebook? ;)

RED-DOG is not an a-hole, FYI.

I would have to disagree with that. If he vandalizes other people's property, such as shelters on the AT he is.

Wise Old Owl
05-06-2013, 00:43
http://www.snopes.com/medical/myths/bluewaffle.asp

Yea we are saying the same thing... you found a better page... however - Google images of Vaginitis and well half way down the page... is a pic with color problems...


Actually don't do it..bit gross.

:confused: What is this doing in the vandalism thread?

Wise Old Owl
05-06-2013, 00:44
I've hear of underwear "impregnated" with silver to cut the stank...but golden underware? :)


I can't believe that worked either.

HikerMom58
05-06-2013, 06:34
I would have to disagree with that. If he vandalizes other people's property, such as shelters on the AT he is.

I don't agree with his behavior/choices. If we are defined, as a person, by our behavior or choices we make sometimes, then we are all in a heap of trouble. ;)

All I ask of RED-DOG, is to read this thread. RED-DOG, try to look at the "other side of the coin." Look at the pic that max patch put up of the shelter with and without the graffiti. OK, then, try to think about how your actions effect others that use the shelters etc... think about all that. You may still feel the same way about it all but at least you have knowledge about how your actions effect others and how it makes some people feel, for starters. :)

I don't think ur an a-hole, RED-DOG.

rickb
05-06-2013, 07:20
[QUOTE=HikerMomKD;1468681]I don't agree with his behavior/choices. If we are defined, as a person, by our behavior or choices we make sometimes, then we are all in a heap of trouble. ;)

QUOTE]

Our behavior is EXACTLY what defines us.

I don't think Red Dog is going to burn in everlasting hell for tagging, but its wrong.

Not just because it distresses some people, but because a legitimate authority chose to make such vandalism illegal.

People make mistakes, but the defiance in his last post speaks volumes.

Trillium
05-06-2013, 08:23
This thread puts me in mind of:

KILROY was here.

HikerMom58
05-06-2013, 08:54
rickb... I will have to say that we don't agree on who we are... other people try to define who we are by our behavior, our looks etc... but that's not who we are. We all choose certain behaviors/ make choices, everyday. We have to live with the consequences of those choices. No one, on this earth, determines who goes to Hell and for what reason.

You can call out a certain behavior and call it anything you want but that's not who the person is...

I do stupid things, sometimes but I am not stupid.

I speed. I sometimes go faster than the speed limit. I live with the consequences when I get caught. How does that define me as a person?

(http://character-training.com/blog/list-of-character-traits#Truthfulness) (http://www.character-training.com/blog/list-of-character-traits#Alertness) (http://www.character-training.com/blog/list-of-character-traits#Tolerance)
We determine, for ourselves, to have good character traits or bad character traits.


The dictionary definitions said character is a “complex of mental and ethical traits“ and that those traits, or qualities, are “built into an individual’s life.” It is those character qualities, those character traits, that determine a person’s response in any given situation.


For example, a person in with a strong character quality of truthfulness (http://character-training.com/blog/list-of-character-traits#Truthfulness) is much more likely to accurately report the facts in a given situation than a person who tends to be characterized by deceptiveness. Someone who has the character trait of alertness (http://www.character-training.com/blog/list-of-character-traits#Alertness)will be more likely to be a better, safer, driver than a person who does not see or recognize the potential dangers around him (carelessness). A person with the character quality of tolerance (http://www.character-training.com/blog/list-of-character-traits#Tolerance)will be more accepting of others – less prejudiced

Our character is much more than just what we try to display for others to see, it is who we are even when no one is watching. Good character is doing the right thing because it is right to do what is right.

I may not agree with someone mooning the cog or defacing someone else's property but I can not determine who that person really is by a behavior that I don't agree with. I also don't think that by calling someone a name will do anything towards helping that person decide to think differently.

The Old Chief
05-06-2013, 10:51
I don't agree with his behavior/choices. If we are defined, as a person, by our behavior or choices we make sometimes, then we are all in a heap of trouble. ;)

All I ask of RED-DOG, is to read this thread. RED-DOG, try to look at the "other side of the coin." Look at the pic that max patch put up of the shelter with and without the graffiti. OK, then, try to think about how your actions effect others that use the shelters etc... think about all that. You may still feel the same way about it all but at least you have knowledge about how your actions effect others and how it makes some people feel, for starters. :)

I don't think ur an a-hole, RED-DOG.

Well, we're all in a heap of trouble! Our prisons are full of people who have been judged by their behavior and choices. I guess in your world it's okay for Gary Hilton to say, "Well, heck, I've murdered a few people, but I'm not a murderer." I've always liked and respected RED-DOG's postings but I wish he wouldn't write his name in the shelters. That's all I'm going to look for from now on when I'm at a shelter!

HikerMom58
05-06-2013, 11:09
Well, we're all in a heap of trouble! Our prisons are full of people who have been judged by their behavior and choices. I guess in your world it's okay for Gary Hilton to say, "Well, heck, I've murdered a few people, but I'm not a murderer." I've always liked and respected RED-DOG's postings but I wish he wouldn't write his name in the shelters. That's all I'm going to look for from now on when I'm at a shelter!

The Old Chief... don't twist my words around, please. I'm not saying that people shouldn't be responsible for their behaviors/choices. We most certainly are responsible for our actions. When someone commits murder that's exactly what they've done. Gary Hilton was found guilty of murder. He is a murderer. It's not right. You know I'm not excusing anyone's behavior. I believe you know exactly what I'm trying to say.....

MDSection12
05-06-2013, 11:11
If RED-DOG had done this in the past and read through this thread and said 'oh man, I've done this a lot and didn't think it was a big deal' then he might not qualify, but coming into this thread to simply post what was essentially bragging about the actions I think we can officially say 'he's an A-hole.' Congrats RED-DOG. Your plaque will be in the mail shortly. Lord knows I've got a few hanging on my wall.

The Old Chief
05-06-2013, 11:25
I guess I really don't know what you're trying to say. By not excusing Hilton's behavior and stating that he is a murderer, you have defined him as a person by his behavior.

Kookork
05-06-2013, 12:50
I don't know RED DOG and have not followed his comments before this thread so all I know about him is with one post that he made about writing his name on half of the shelters along the AT. Not the best first impression for me to be honest.

It seems to me he has been a regular poster here in WB recently. When I read an unusually bold comment I always look at the number of comments one has made in this site before. If the poster is a new comer I am normally more forgiving and less judgmental about it but if this comment comes from a hiker (specially a 2000 miler ) with a history of hundreds of comments (hence the history of reading thousands of comments) then I am more concerned about the comment and definitely more judgmental about it.

I am also guilty of misbehaving from time to time in this site( especially when I was a new comer with a hefty load of ego and heftier load of insecurity) but posting in WB taught me where and where my behavior has been aberant or wrong and I started to take notes and more importantly started to correct my behavior while hiking. That is why I am here and enjoy being a WBer .

I love to hear from RED DOG and how he reacts to the comment about him. If I comment kind of bold in a thread I definitely follow the reaction of others about it and do not abandon the thread .

I guess What hiker mom is trying to say is that RED DOG has not shown any sign of being a-hole before. What I am saying is that we as the members of WB should try to be more tolerant about the members who do not think or react like what we consider normal or right. If we keep them posting in this website then there is a better chance that we can show them what they do is not considered right in hikers world. Alienation of them is not going to help them or us in long run.

bfayer
05-06-2013, 13:14
I don't want to speak for HMKD, she is more than able to speak for herself.

What I took out of what she said is that you need to judge the whole person not just isolated traits or actions.

I don't thing she was implying that you should ignore someone's actions as long as they are an overall nice guy. To me she is saying that there are some good people out there that do boneheaded things, but they're still overall good people.

Throwing phycho murders into a discussion on if you can be a graffiti tagger and not be a a-hole is a bit extreme. Some people are just plain evil, most people are not. I don't think most taggers are evil.

Getting back on subject. Writing crap on other peoples stuff is wrong. If you don't own it (meaning if you can't give it to your kids when you die) then keep your tags off it.

HikerMom58
05-06-2013, 13:45
"I guess What hiker mom is trying to say is that RED DOG has not shown any sign of being a-hole before. What I am saying is that we as the members of WB should try to be more tolerant about the members who do not think or react like what we consider normal or right. If we keep them posting in this website then there is a better chance that we can show them what they do is not considered right in hikers world. Alienation of them is not going to help them or us in long run."

That's exactly what I'm trying to say Koko... you understand me well. :)

How we respond to people can be right or wrong. Even if we are right, we can be very wrong.

Also, if who we are totally depends on our chosen behavior, at any given time, then we would be constantly changing who we are. :-? I don't believe we can be "defined" as an "a-hole" one minute and then a "good person" the next. That's not the way it works.....
I do stupid things sometimes - I am not stupid.

HikerMom58
05-06-2013, 13:46
I don't want to speak for HMKD, she is more than able to speak for herself.

What I took out of what she said is that you need to judge the whole person not just isolated traits or actions.

I don't thing she was implying that you should ignore someone's actions as long as they are an overall nice guy. To me she is saying that there are some good people out there that do boneheaded things, but they're still overall good people.

Throwing phycho murders into a discussion on if you can be a graffiti tagger and not be a a-hole is a bit extreme. Some people are just plain evil, most people are not. I don't think most taggers are evil.

Getting back on subject. Writing crap on other peoples stuff is wrong. If you don't own it (meaning if you can't give it to your kids when you die) then keep your tags off it.

You, bfayer. also understand what I'm saying. You are right ON!!!

MDSection12
05-06-2013, 13:50
"I guess What hiker mom is trying to say is that RED DOG has not shown any sign of being a-hole before. What I am saying is that we as the members of WB should try to be more tolerant about the members who do not think or react like what we consider normal or right. If we keep them posting in this website then there is a better chance that we can show them what they do is not considered right in hikers world. Alienation of them is not going to help them or us in long run."

That's exactly what I'm trying to say Koko... you understand me well. :)

How we respond to people can be right or wrong. Even if we are right, we can be very wrong.

Also, if who we are totally depends on our chosen behavior, at any given time, then we would be constantly changing who we are. :-? I don't believe we can be "defined" as an "a-hole" one minute and then a "good person" the next. That's not the way it works.....
I do stupid things sometimes - I am not stupid.

You do realize this is totally semantics right? If we really want to nitpick then no human being is an a**hole...

It seems a little odd to argue with such zeal and yet miss the obvious point that we're debating a term that has absolutely no concrete definition in the context we're using it in. Maybe we should just move on?

BirdBrain
05-06-2013, 14:04
You do realize this is totally semantics right? If we really want to nitpick then no human being is an a**hole...

It seems a little odd to argue with such zeal and yet miss the obvious point that we're debating a term that has absolutely no concrete definition in the context we're using it in. Maybe we should just move on?

I agree. This type of debate is Whiteblaze at it's worst.

Philippians 4:8, "Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things."

It is a beautiful day out. Let's all go for a walk and do the right thing by each other. Smile. Life is too short to be engaged in such silliness.

MDSection12
05-06-2013, 14:15
It's funny but in my experience most internet forums go to unnecessary extremes intentionally trying to belittle people... Whiteblaze seems to go in the exact opposite and go to unnecessary extremes to make sure everybody is 'nice.' I don't get it. I'm all for positivity but some discussions require a negative viewpoint... That's just how the world works.

Maybe whoever used the term 'a-hole' should have used more clear terminology than that, but the fact remains that writing your name in a shelter, much less half of them on the AT, is inconsiderate. If he doesn't like people calling him names, which refer to his lack of consideration for others, then maybe he should either stop those behaviors or possibly just keep them to himself.

It's not a beautiful day here. It's a rainy Monday, and it's supposed to be raining for the next three days straight. See; the whole world ain't always sunshine and rainbows. :p

BirdBrain
05-06-2013, 14:20
Not everybody hates the rain. It would be a pretty ugly place without rain. It is just a matter of perspective. I like rainy days, snowy days, and sunny days.

its all good

rocketsocks
05-06-2013, 14:22
It's funny but in my experience most internet forums go to unnecessary extremes intentionally trying to belittle people... Whiteblaze seems to go in the exact opposite and go to unnecessary extremes to make sure everybody is 'nice.' I don't get it. I'm all for positivity but some discussions require a negative viewpoint... That's just how the world works.

Maybe whoever used the term 'a-hole' should have used more clear terminology than that, but the fact remains that writing your name in a shelter, much less half of them on the AT, is inconsiderate. If he doesn't like people calling him names, which refer to his lack of consideration for others, then maybe he should either stop those behaviors or possibly just keep them to himself.

It's not a beautiful day here. It's a rainy Monday, and it's supposed to be raining for the next three days straight. See; the whole world ain't always sunshine and rainbows. :pgotta learn to dance in the rain....



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qr5djzzeA3M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qr5djzzeA3M

MDSection12
05-06-2013, 14:23
Perspective? Are you implying that people have different viewpoints and that they aren't necessarily 'wrong' just because they don't agree with my own perception? :eek:

rocketsocks
05-06-2013, 14:26
Perspective? Are you implying that people have different viewpoints and that they aren't necessarily 'wrong' just because they don't agree with my own perception? :eek:yes and No, just that it's raining all over the world.....so what are ya gonna do?

MDSection12
05-06-2013, 14:29
yes and No, just that it's raining all over the world.....so what are ya gonna do?

Be grumpy on WB and argue about what constitutes an 'a**hole' besides an actual a**hole. What else would I do?

BirdBrain
05-06-2013, 14:32
Be grumpy on WB and argue about what constitutes an 'a**hole' besides an actual a**hole. What else would I do?

Philippians 4:8, "Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things."

Not gonna' say it again. Moving on.

rocketsocks
05-06-2013, 14:34
Be grumpy on WB and argue about what constitutes an 'a**hole' besides an actual a**hole. What else would I do?

bigger question....what else could you do?

MDSection12
05-06-2013, 14:39
I've lost track of what we're talking about... Apparently you guys think I'm making some kind of argument, I was just messing around.

BirdBrain
05-06-2013, 14:43
I've lost track of what we're talking about... Apparently you guys think I'm making some kind of argument, I was just messing around.

Not thinking any such thing. I don't know you. It would be judging to make specific claims about a person without all the facts. You are likely a better person than I in many areas. Smile. Be happy. Let go and live.

MDSection12
05-06-2013, 14:52
Wow, I'm confused.

rocketsocks
05-06-2013, 15:00
I've lost track of what we're talking about... Apparently you guys think I'm making some kind of argument, I was just messing around.
me too...."it's just messin"...no biggie

moose717
05-06-2013, 16:38
what??????

rocketsocks
05-06-2013, 16:55
what??????



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTl9zYS3_dc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTl9zYS3_dc

rocketsocks
05-06-2013, 17:08
but either way you cut the Argument....No es bueno.

moose717
05-06-2013, 17:13
:) .................

rocketsocks
05-06-2013, 17:19
...............:) I hear ya!

RED-DOG
05-07-2013, 17:35
WOW half the people on WB thinks i am an A-HOLE um OKAY weather you write your trail name on a shelter or not thats you choice I have made mine and you made your's we all have choices weather their right or wrong, and for the record I am not an A-HOLE.:-?:-?

hikerboy57
05-07-2013, 17:37
WOW half the people on WB thinks i am an A-HOLE um OKAY weather you write your trail name on a shelter or not thats you choice I have made mine and you made your's we all have choices weather their right or wrong, and for the record I am not an A-HOLE.:-?:-?
i believe it was actually 66%:)

RED-DOG
05-07-2013, 17:40
i believe it was actually 66%:)

Why not 75%, or 100%.

hikerboy57
05-07-2013, 17:42
Why not 75%, or 100%.
if you want it you have to earn it.

MDSection12
05-07-2013, 17:50
WOW half the people on WB thinks i am an A-HOLE um OKAY weather you write your trail name on a shelter or not thats you choice I have made mine and you made your's we all have choices weather their right or wrong, and for the record I am not an A-HOLE.:-?:-?
I hope you had better spelling when you defaced the shelters... But besides that point you are correct; we all make choices and sometimes those choices make us an a-hole. I only know of one a-hole plaque on your wall, my wall has many. :)

HikerMom58
05-07-2013, 17:54
I hope you had better spelling when you defaced the shelters... But besides that point you are correct; we all make choices and sometimes those choices make us an a-hole. I only know of one a-hole plaque on your wall, my wall has many. :)

Picky picky picky!!! ;)

rocketsocks
05-07-2013, 17:55
I hope you had better spelling when you defaced the shelters... But besides that point you are correct; we all make choices and sometimes those choices make us an a-hole. I only know of one a-hole plaque on your wall, my wall has many. :)Yep, I got a few plaques my own self ;)

MDSection12
05-07-2013, 17:56
Picky picky picky!!! ;)
Did I just earn another plaque? :banana

hikerboy57
05-07-2013, 17:56
Did I just earn another plaque? :banana
its great to strive for pefection

HikerMom58
05-07-2013, 19:29
Did I just earn another plaque? :banana

Nah... you're fine MDSection12! :banana :D

Kookork
05-07-2013, 19:47
Attention:

Free " I'm a-hole according to some WhiteBlaze members" Patch.

Send the pictures of your trail name on half of the shelters along the AT and Boom ,the prestigious patch is yours.

hikerboy57
05-07-2013, 19:49
Attention:

Free " I'm a-hole according to some WhiteBlaze members" Patch.

Send the pictures of your trail name on half of the shelters along the AT and Boom ,the prestigious patch is yours.
there will never be enough patches

Train Wreck
05-07-2013, 20:20
Yep, I got a few plaques my own self ;)

Awards from the spouse don't count! :D

Gray Blazer
05-07-2013, 22:49
Gray Blazer wuz here.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/99/Kilroy_Was_Here_-_Washington_DC_WWII_Memorial.jpg

TD55
05-07-2013, 22:58
Sometimes simple jackassery is misdiagnosed as A-holery. Me thinks some of that has been going on in this thread.

Kookork
05-07-2013, 23:30
Gray Blazer wuz here.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/99/Kilroy_Was_Here_-_Washington_DC_WWII_Memorial.jpg

you earn " I've watched and enjoyed Shawshank Redemption movie" Patch which is genuinely a prestigious patch Sir.

SassyWindsor
05-08-2013, 01:24
It's my opinion that shelters are a form of graffiti, even in bad weather. Even though it wrong, graffiti doesn't bother me in the shelters. I do have a problem with trees, bridges, towers, hand railings, signage, rocks and everything else that isn't a shelter being ruined by immature a-holes. I have thought of someone rerouting the trail with new white blazes down a very steep logging road only to have to turn around and walk back.

rocketsocks
05-08-2013, 01:39
Awards from the spouse don't count! :DOh, I wasn't including those...there all in storage....8x10, gotta be a thousand and one...each year of bliss I get to burn one....20 down...you do the math ;)

fcoulter
05-08-2013, 10:22
You do realize this is totally semantics right? If we really want to nitpick then no human being is an a**hole...

You could also say that (without surgery) all human beings are partially a**holes.

Bobby
05-08-2013, 10:56
It's my opinion that shelters are a form of graffiti, even in bad weather. Even though it wrong, graffiti doesn't bother me in the shelters. I do have a problem with trees, bridges, towers, hand railings, signage, rocks and everything else that isn't a shelter being ruined by immature a-holes. I have thought of someone rerouting the trail with new white blazes down a very steep logging road only to have to turn around and walk back.


We have a tradition at our school - every year a few people get to climb the clock tower and sign there names. Considering the clock tower is over 100 years old you can be sure there are lots of names and dates up there.
graffiti or tradition? - seems one's perspective has a lot to do with it.

MDSection12
05-08-2013, 11:12
We have a tradition at our school - every year a few people get to climb the clock tower and sign there names. Considering the clock tower is over 100 years old you can be sure there are lots of names and dates up there.
graffiti or tradition? - seems one's perspective has a lot to do with it.
Hmmm... 'Get to' seems to imply that this is a school sanctioned behavior. Seeing as though they are the owners of the clock tower I'd say that it's not graffiti if it's done with their blessing.

Now I'm guessing that, as is the case with most similar traditions, the original few people to do that were probably not given permission... So it could be considered a school approved tradition of graffiti... But then again opening the 'things we used to do 100 years ago that are now considered taboo' Pandora's box is never a good idea.