View Full Version : Campsites 20 or 21 ??
We were planning to try to see the synchronous fireflies this year but there's no room in Elkmont. Does anyone have any recommendations on maybe trying backcountry sites 20 or 21. We do hammock camp so we need enough trees to support 4 hammocks as close together as possible. Our 13 yr old daughter is going so trail difficulty and safety are of utmost inportance. We could go to Cades Cove but not sure about possibilities of seeing the fireflies.
HooKooDooKu
05-02-2013, 23:48
I don't have experience with either camp site. But if I were planning to try to see the fireflies, I would try camp #20 stricktly because it is at a lower elevation (i.e. closer to the elevation of Elkmont). Or even better would be a two night hike and stay at both. The fireflies can be pretty finicky, so it's possible that both sites are too far away from Elkmont to see any fireflies. You might want to make contengency plans to do some night hiking (set up camp, then after dinner and the sun has gone down, hike towards Elkmont until you see some fireflies. You shouldn't have any problems hiking at night if you've hiked the trail already and everyone has a good head lamp).
The only experience I've had with the fireflies is that I was staying at camp site #53 over Memorial Weekend (2 years ago) located on the other side of the mountain from Elkmont (and a much higher elevation). We got a suprize visit from synchronous fireflies that night. But the next night at camp site #58 (same valley, 5 miles away at a lower elevation) there were NO synchronous fireflies.
I can tell you that last year, the fireflies came about two weeks earlier than the nation park service had planned. You needed to go before Memorial Day rather than the 2nd week of June to see them. So starting about the 18th, you might want to give the back country information number a call every couple of days and see if the fireflies are active yet.
I don't think you'll see any synchronous fireflies in Cades Cove campground. As popular as that site is, if they normally made an appearance there, we likely would have heard something about it by now.
As for your 13yo daughter, that should be a non-issue. My sons started hiking to Mt. LeConte Lodge at age 6, and overnight trips carrying their own backpack (limit to 20% their body weight) on trips to places like Gregory Bald at age 7. And we're not particularly an active family (neither son participates in sports). I read a book about hiking with kids several years ago. It gave the rule of thumb that you can expect kids to be able to hike about 1 mile per year of their age. So at age 13, there isn't any one trail your daughter should have a problem with.
HooKooDooKu
05-02-2013, 23:55
What ever happens, I'd love to hear a report about how things go. From what I've read about the process for seeing the fireflies, I'm not too keen on trying to join the crowds in Elkmont. I've wanted to try to see them by camping at camp sites 20 and 27, but so far things have not worked out for me to try.
mrcoffeect
05-03-2013, 06:55
last year I got to witness this, my first night after leaving the smokys I had the shelter all to myself. I have never heard of such a thing as synchronous fireflys. So at first I thought I was seeing things, I was ready to dump out my flask, and throw my bag of grass in the fire. LOL. All kidding aside it was very cool. For about 40 min they did a wave pattern like a scrolling marquee in front of the shelter.
I have hiked through campsite 20... but that was a few years ago. It seemed to be a very pleasant campsite with plenty of flat ground and a creek going through it. We stopped there for lunch and enjoyed it. We then proceeded to hike on to campsite #19, our scheduled campsite for the night. Campsite #19 has very little flat ground and hardly any place to set up tents... (probably be fine for hammocks though...)
I have not hiked through 21...
HooKooDooKu
05-03-2013, 10:02
last year I got to witness this, my first night after leaving the smokys I had the shelter all to myself. I have never heard of such a thing as synchronous fireflys. So at first I thought I was seeing things, I was ready to dump out my flask, and throw my bag of grass in the fire. LOL. All kidding aside it was very cool. For about 40 min they did a wave pattern like a scrolling marquee in front of the shelter.
What shelter and what was the date?
From what I've been able to gather (after my firefly encounter at #53), there are apparently several species of synchronous fireflys, with different species located in different parts, and each species behaving a little different. I've heard of the waves, and I've experienced simultaneous flashing.
But when it comes to any published details, only the fireflies at Elkmont seem to be widely known and published about.
[QUOTE
But when it comes to any published details, only the fireflies at Elkmont seem to be widely known and published about.[/QUOTE]
that is true....
i have seen them at many other campsites within the park.......
and not just on the TN side....
while i havent stayed at 21 during firefly season (i stayed there in the winter), i have heard that they happen in this campsite...
and as a result, this campsite has become very popular for that reason....
i would think one could see them at CS 20 as well....
i would avoid CS 19......not the best campsite......
also.....have seen the fireflies at CS 64 along noland creek.....
Ox97GaMe
05-03-2013, 21:34
peak firefly synchronization will be between June 5 and June 13. I have seen them from a lot of different places in the park. Just about any campsite below 3500 ft and near water would be ideal. One of my favorite campsites to watch them has a waterfall, a swimming hole, and an old railroad tressel bridge. I LOVE that spot. Just sit on the bridge and watch the fireflies on both sides of the creek.
peak firefly synchronization will be between June 5 and June 13. I have seen them from a lot of different places in the park. Just about any campsite below 3500 ft and near water would be ideal. One of my favorite campsites to watch them has a waterfall, a swimming hole, and an old railroad tressel bridge. I LOVE that spot. Just sit on the bridge and watch the fireflies on both sides of the creek.
I don't suppose you'd care to share the location of that favorite spot would you? From what I've read alot of people keep their spots undisclosed due to the crowds that are drawn. I appreciate all the responses so far.
gollwoods
05-04-2013, 05:59
hmmm, can't be walnut bottoms, no waterfall too close.
As a complete hunch what if we changed plans and camped down Big Creek to campsite 37? I wonder if we'd see any fireflies there. What about the difficulty of the Big Creek trail and condition of campsite for hammocks?
As a complete hunch what if we changed plans and camped down Big Creek to campsite 37? I wonder if we'd see any fireflies there. What about the difficulty of the Big Creek trail and condition of campsite for hammocks?
What about bear activity in this area?
that's one of the most heavily used sites in the park......
saying that, it's not a bad site, and should have room for hammocks.....
going up big creek trail from the campground is a breeze........
a little bit of elevation change but nothing extreme.......
i would expect, since it's a heavily used site, that it would have bear activity....
if memory serves me right, except for last year, almost every summer the park closes it down for a time period due to bears....
but that's usually later in the year....
not sure about fireflies in that area.....
sliderule
05-04-2013, 11:29
As a complete hunch what if we changed plans and camped down Big Creek to campsite 37? I wonder if we'd see any fireflies there. What about the difficulty of the Big Creek trail and condition of campsite for hammocks?
What's your primary objective?
Hiking, or watching fireflies?
sliderule
05-04-2013, 11:30
What about bear activity in this area?
If bear activity (or rain) is a problem, don't hike in the Smokies.
sliderule
05-04-2013, 11:37
hmmm, can't be walnut bottoms, no waterfall too close.
Forty seven.
i was thinking 47 as well......
but, that's not "an old railroad tressel bridge"....
that bridge is only a few decades old, and was built after someone drowned trying to cross the creek there....
ATL Backpacker
05-04-2013, 12:10
Forty seven.
My favorite campsite setting in the park. Small site (and not great for hammocks?) but low risk of crowds as it's hard to get to (remote, some tough climbing) relative to other sites in the park.
HooKooDooKu
05-04-2013, 12:55
As a complete hunch what if we changed plans and camped down Big Creek to campsite 37? I wonder if we'd see any fireflies there.
There are multiple locations that have synchronous fireflies. But they do NOT cover the entire park. Refer back to my example of seeing a spectacular display ate camp site 53, yet absolutely no synchronous fireflies the next night at 58 (both sites along Deep Creek).
As for campsite #47, keep in mind that Balsam Moutain (road and front country camping) are closed for all of 2013. I'm assuming you could still reach the trail head via the two way Straigth Fork Road.
sliderule
05-04-2013, 19:06
i was thinking 47 as well......
but, that's not "an old railroad tressel bridge"....
Technically, the bridge is neither "railroad" nor "tressel." (It's not trestle, either.)
But, guessing that Ox might not be an engineer, I'll still put my money on 47.
Bears at #37? Maybe.... But I have had more problems with mice there. #37 is a huge campsite so getting a spot for hammocks would be no problem. But it also can be a crowded campsite, so arrive early for best campsite selection.
#47 is a great site, but I agree with HooKooDooKu.... not great for hammocks. I spent a very uncomfortable night there stretched between two trees that were way too close together for a proper lay. Beautiful site otherwise. It has been several years since I hiked through there. Does anyone know if they ever replaced the bear pole with cables? I had a very hard time getting my food bag up on the pole last time I was there and finally ended up hanging my food bag under the bridge over the water.
Rain Man
05-06-2013, 09:48
This is news to me! Maybe I've heard or read of it, but forgot. Anyway, I'm going with a Nashville group over Memorial Day weekend to Gregory Bald, camping at campsites 92 and then 13 from Twenty Mile Ranger Station. We'll probably watch the sunset from Gregory Bald, weather permitting.
Should we be on the lookout for this phenomenon? I'd love to see it. Thanks for any advice for our group.
Rain:sunMan
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sliderule
05-06-2013, 12:23
This is news to me!
Rain:sunMan
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Assuming that you are referring to the fireflies (and not bears, mice or bridges), they have become quite the attraction over the past few years. Anyone going near Sugarlands or Elkmont during the second week of June should be aware of special procedures and restrictions.
http://www.nps.gov/grsm/naturescience/fireflies.htm
SGT Rock
05-06-2013, 13:06
We just watch them in our yard.
SGT Rock
05-06-2013, 13:10
Bears at #37? Maybe.... But I have had more problems with mice there. #37 is a huge campsite so getting a spot for hammocks would be no problem. But it also can be a crowded campsite, so arrive early for best campsite selection.Every time I have ever tried to get into campsite #37 in the past, it was "closed for bear activity". The funny thing was, the last time I tried to get campsite #37, campsite #36 was not closed (they are right next to each other for those that have never been there) but they wouldn't allow me to stay in #36 because I didn't have a horse. I stopped even trying to use #37 about 2 years ago. Standard bureaucratic stupidity.
I took my two daughters on a trip in March and we ended up staying at campsite 21 (hadn't planned on it, but a snow storm changed our plans). There are plenty of trees there to hammock so that wouldn't be an issue. The trail up there - Little River Trail - is probably one of the easiest trails in the park and even during the snow storm had a lot of people on it, but it is about 3 miles from Elkmont. The .5 mile spur off the little river to the campsite is a little more work as it has some elevation involved, but nothing to worry about because its such a short stretch.
sliderule
05-06-2013, 13:23
The funny thing was, the last time I tried to get campsite #37, campsite #36 was not closed (they are right next to each other for those that have never been there) but they wouldn't allow me to stay in #36 because I didn't have a horse. I stopped even trying to use #37 about 2 years ago. Standard bureaucratic stupidity.
Evidently, the bureaucracy got a little smarter. According tho the reservation system, backpackers without horses are no longer prohibited from using #36.
But, you still cannot use some front country campsites if you don't have an RV.
Yup.....there are bear cables at 37 along (at least 2 years ago) the bear pole...
The cables use the bridge as the supports (usually trees in other campsites) so while it gets bags up in the air--it's still almost within arms reach....
SGT Rock
05-06-2013, 16:14
Evidently, the bureaucracy got a little smarter. According tho the reservation system, backpackers without horses are no longer prohibited from using #36.
But, you still cannot use some front country campsites if you don't have an RV.I would like to think I had something to do with that. Maybe not...
But a couple of years ago when I was at the open house dealing with the new back country fees, I brought up that instance of not being allowed to use #36 to Melissa Colburn (I hope I spelled that right) who was head of back country operations at the time and a good person. She thought that was ridiculous as much as I did and said she would look into it.
sliderule
05-06-2013, 18:29
I would like to think I had something to do with that.
Good for you. Historically, the "horse union" has wielded a little too much influence in the Park.
Thanks for all the input. We're looking forward to the fireflies, if we get to see them. Discounting the fireflies and for just time in the woods, any preferences on 20 or 21 vs 36? I'm not sure if I said but our two kids are going, a 14 yr old boy (no concerns) and a 13 yr old daughter (hiking is not her favorite activity).
Blue Wolf
05-06-2013, 21:12
I have seen them in the past at campsite 24, however 21 is a very nice site and a lot closer to the general area.
I would take 20 or 21 over 36.....
While 36 is somewhat of a nice site, the others are better......
I saw this article on my news feeds yesterday.... It explains with a bit of depth about where and when to see the fireflies at locations other than elkmont.
http://yoursmokies.blogspot.com/2013/05/where-and-when-to-see-synchronous.html
HooKooDooKu
05-07-2013, 09:43
This is news to me! Maybe I've heard or read of it, but forgot. Anyway, I'm going with a Nashville group over Memorial Day weekend to Gregory Bald, camping at campsites 92 and then 13 from Twenty Mile Ranger Station. We'll probably watch the sunset from Gregory Bald, weather permitting.
Should we be on the lookout for this phenomenon? I'd love to see it. Thanks for any advice for our group.
Rain:sunMan
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I've done that loop (as well as Tenty Mile to 113, 13 and back). Excellent hike... except for the hike down Wolf Ridge. I don't know why, but for some reason that trail feels like it takes forever.
You might already be experienced enough around Gregory Bald to know the following, but just in case...
1. On the hike up, make sure to load up on water for the 2nd night at Moore Spring. That way you don't have to hike the 100 yards or so down the moutain from 13 to get water. To get to Moore Spring, there is an extra unmarked trail (except for a H20--> scratched into one of the signs) at the intersection of Gregory Bald/Gregory Ridge/Long Hungry Ridge (Rich Gap). Follow this narrow some what over grown trail for almost 1/2 mile until you come to a rock with a pipe growing out of it. It's a nice lunch spot. Then after lunch, load up on water for the night. Don't go back the way you came. There is a trail somewhere from Moore Spring over to Gregory Bald trail. I've seen the trail intersection hiking between Rich Gap and Gregory Bald, but I've never found it leaving from Moore Spring. So if you don't find an alternate trail, simply start hiking strait up hill and you'll soon intersect the trail between Rich Gap and Gregory Bald.
2. Only stay at Gregory Bald for a breif view and capture a couple of pictures. Then go ahead and head down to camp 13. It's only about 1/4 mile past the Bald. It's a populare site, so I suggest going early to find the best camp site (though there are many). My personal favoraite is the North East corner of the camp ground (near enough to bear cables, and right on the edge of the semi-open hill side to make quick work of finding a place to pee in the middle of the night). Then for dinner, take your cooking gear and food back up to the Bald. The Bald is much less crowded in the evening, and then simply stay there until night fall.
As for the fireflies, they are NOT ubiquitous through out the park. Apparently there are multiple species of syncronous firefiles in the park, each with their own habitats, preferences, and habits (some flash in true syncronisouty, some flash in a wave, etc).
The most well known set of syncronous fireflies are the ones located around Elkmont. I think that is the only spot near any front-country that the fireflies are known to appear. This thread has pointed out they have been seen near Elkmont, camp sites 47, 53, and 64 (plus what ever that blog in post #34 points to... can't get there from here). That's only a very small percentage of the park.
I believe I've read that the fireflies like water (if true, I doubt you'll see them at the bald or site #13). There timing greatly depends upon the weather. When they do come out, it's usually for about two weeks. It's possible for them to appear as early as late May and as late as mid-June. It seems like the National Park Service plans for the fireflies to appear at Elkmont centered about June 6th. But last year, they had just about waned by then.
To see them, simply open your eyes as soon as it gets dark. Either there will be a few scattered fireflies around like you are used to seeing in your backyard, or the air will be filled with them flashing in syncronisity (I believe it takes some crittle mass for the syncronisity to occur, so if they are small in number and scattered like you're use to seeing in your back-yard, there will not be syncronisity).
In otherwords, if it is occuring around you, you can't miss it. (It's an ausome sight to watch).
Rain Man
05-07-2013, 10:13
... You might already be experienced enough around Gregory Bald to know the following, but just in case...
No, have never set foot in that part of the Park. So, thank you, thank you for all the good intel.
Our trip leader has done Gregory Bald two or three times, though I don't know which trails.
Rain:sunMan
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Agreed with Moore spring...
IMO---one of the best springs in the park..
The trail that goes to the bald goes up the hill from the spring....
As in, if yer coming in for the trail described above, don't go straight at the spring (that takes you up to the old shelter site) but rather go towards the right and up the hill...
This trail is kinda overgrown but somewhat easy to follow as one is just basically climbing up to the bald....
Bring some sort of collection bag and avoid the spring nearest 13...
That one is a hog wallow......I've seen pigs lay in that one as well as horses drinking outta it with manure around it...
It's well worth it to go to Moore spring...
HooKooDooKu
05-07-2013, 17:37
Here's the location of Moore Spring: http://web.eecs.utk.edu/~dunigan/gsmnp/googlegsmnp.php?lat=35.52025&lon=-83.85847&mt=6&scale=15
The trail that goes to the bald goes up the hill from the spring....
As in, if yer coming in for the trail described above, don't go straight at the spring (that takes you up to the old shelter site) but rather go towards the right and up the hill...
This trail is kinda overgrown but somewhat easy to follow as one is just basically climbing up to the bald....
TNhiker,
I'm a bit confused by your instructions. Can you try to make things a little more clear?
What I know is that the trail from Rich Gap to Moore Sping is easy to find, easy to follow (btw, I remeasured on Google Earth, the Spring is 1/4 to 1/3 of a mile from Rich Gap). I know I've also seen the other end of the trail where it reconnects with Gregory Bald Trail (about half way between Rich Gap and the Bald). However, I've never followed the trail from the Gregory Bald Trail intersection down to the Spring (I've only followed the trail between Rich Gap and the Spring). Once I've gotten to Moore Spring, I haven't been able to spot the trail going up hill toward Gregory Bald Trail. Since the distance to Gregory Bald Trail is only a little more than 100 yards from the Spring, I've just always gone off-trail and hike strait up hill. I'm likely walking parallel to the actual trail and missing it by less than 50'.
So if you are standing at the Spring, facing up hill with the trail to Rich Gap on your right, how do you locate the trail that takes you up the mountain towards Gregory Bald Trail (for you can see from the map that the trail intersection with Gregory Bald Trail is about 300 yards below the Bald)?
That one is a hog wallow....
Oh yea, I forgot about that. Not only is the water source for camp #13 about 300 yards DOWN HILL from camp, but its just a minor seep that empties into a bog.
If you find you have to get more water once you reach camp 13, you hike down the Gregory Bald trail. About 300 yards down the trail, you'll come to two tiny water seeps that cross the trail and dump into a large mud puddle on your left.
While I've seen guys trying to get water from the mud puddle, I've always been able to get water from one of the two seeps on the right side of the trail. I simply take several steps up-hill along the seep until a find a spot where I can clear a few pebbles to make a tea-cup saucer size collection bowl in the middle of the seep. I've then been able to use my Sweetwater pump to suck up the water from the small little depression so that my water source is from a flowing source rather than a stagnant source.
[QUOTE=ToddW;1468973 any preferences on 20 or 21 vs 36?
I actually meant 37, not 36 as this is mainly a horse site. So 20 vs 21 vs 37....
Standing at the spring---with water coming from pipe going right to left (and trail from rich gap at yer back)------look towards the right and uphill.....
There's a tiny bit of a pathway that is the trail that connects to bald..
Like I says, it's a bit overgrown in spots so it can be tough to find....
And to be honest, I've found it just as easy to backtrack the main trail to the intersection with rich gap...
It's been a couple of years since I've been up there so I'm going on memory...
Also, I think I'd still stick with 20 or 21 over 37....but that's just me...
All three are nice spots but 37 seemingly always has a crowd...
gollwoods
05-07-2013, 21:10
ticks were heavy at 13 one time I was there.
ATL Backpacker
05-09-2013, 21:47
All this talk about 21 has motivated me to head up there myself to see first-hand. ToddW maybe I'll see you up there next month!
Bear Cables
05-12-2013, 12:38
We had a great firefly show when we stayed at the shelter between max patch and Davenport gap.
sliderule
05-22-2013, 22:21
We had a great firefly show when we stayed at the shelter between max patch and Davenport gap.
But were they synchronous fireflies?
Are there bear cables at 21?
Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk 2
HooKooDooKu
05-27-2013, 17:28
According to the official GSMNP Trail map, ALL backcountry campsites have "food storage cable systems". Now I've seen a wide variety in their condition... but then site #21 was moved to its present location just a few years ago, so I suspect it's bear cables to be in good shape.
that is correct for the most part.....
there's only a couple of campsites that don't have cables......
but, they are the island campsites on fontana lake.......i believe that 87 didnt have cables along with either 73 or 78.......
there are some sites (66 and 93 come to mind) were the cables are damaged.......or at least they were damaged last year......
We're going this weekend (june 2-4) to sites 21 then 20. What should we expect as far as flying pests? We're all hammocking so I assume we'll need to deploy bugnets. Also for you hammockers I'm taking my UQ but will a fleece throw be sufficient for top insulation? Low temps forecast to be 60 deg.
SGT Rock
05-30-2013, 13:00
Gnats, maybe mosquitoes.