View Full Version : let's play 20 questions--I'll start hehe-answer some, none, or all of em :)
soulrebel
07-19-2005, 16:08
Now for a disjointed q and a.
---CLEANING---
how many times did you have to wash the bag on your thru hike? were you using a liner?
How often clean the water bladder and w/ what method?
How often do you clean the hose and w/ what method?
Anybody else use degreaser (aka grease lightning) as a pre-wash to remove funk from your polypro clothing? It seems to break up the residue oil and wash away if you use warm water.
yea/nay? (In 10 years I've never trashed any of my expensive synthetics, cept the white ones==hehe)
----electronics/games----
How do you upload your photos, cycle video cards, recharge batteries along the trail.
Did you really carry the battery charger or bounce it along?
Did you carry the usb cable to connect to public computers or perhaps a card reader?
Did you mail cards home to be uploaded and sent back? or perhaps bounce along a battery powered one touch flash card copier HDD?
cell phone or calling card? do you bounce the charger?
pocketmail or journal?
rio mp3 player (xtra cards) w/ 12 oz sony trs-77 amplified 1.5-inch speakers---I think this will be my big luxury.
Will it be annoying for me to play a lil music while at the shelter fixing dinner (bob marley). also, My wife and I like jamming when we hike, but I don't wanna completely destroy solitude for others on the trail.
What's the general consensus? (don't worry I'm still gonna take it--maybe ship it up to the 500 mile mark?)
what do you carry for entertainment?
journal, hacky sack (doubles as tripod), cards (great for an emergency shelter, lol), half a novel, frisbee (plate), thermarest 4-in-1 game set (5oz), suggestions? or don't bother b/c others are carrying the entertainment crap---
equipment and staying dry-------
Do you use a pack cover (single use) or just go with the black garbage bag inside w/ everything in silnylon sacks and perhaps a second garbage back covering the outside?
For the people that wear trail runners
Do you wear gaiters?
when it rains?
do you take a waterproof sock and just suck it up and walk thru the mosh pit?
or change to camp shoes aka crocs/flipflops/sandals which I don't think would stay on your feet in the mud?
Many questions but just ironing out some of the wrinkles, thank you for your input on your setup/or opinions?
My base pack is 15lbs currently and I feel like I've got capacity to take portable music...
Did anybody take a 1lb setup for group enjoyment and regret it?
Also did anyone regret wearing just trail runners w/ crew socks?
I pick a lot of ticks off the leg hairs but seems like they get on gaiters too..
Footslogger
07-19-2005, 16:50
Q - how many times did you have to wash the bag on your thru hike? were you using a liner?
A - I carried a down bag and didn't wash it until after the hike. I used a liner at first (silk) but it kept getting all twisted inside the bag and I sent it home
Q - How often clean the water bladder and w/ what method?
A - I never actually "cleaned" my water bladder. I did routinely rinse it out when I was in a town or hostel with fresh water
Q - How often do you clean the hose and w/ what method?
A - Again, I never actually "clean" the hose. I rinse it as best possible whenever I'm in a town/hostel and when I'm not going to be using it for a while I blow out all the left over moisture and disconnect if from the bladder so that it can air dry
Q - Anybody else use degreaser (aka grease lightning) as a pre-wash to remove funk from your polypro clothing? It seems to break up the residue oil and wash away if you use warm water.
yea/nay? (In 10 years I've never trashed any of my expensive synthetics, cept the white ones==hehe)
A - NO ...I've never used it and don't have any plans to in the future
----electronics/games----
Q - How do you upload your photos, cycle video cards, recharge batteries along the trail.
A - I carried about 6 of the 32 Mbyte size media cards on my thru and recycled them back and forth from home, where my wife would download them to the puter and then burn a CD
Q - Did you really carry the battery charger or bounce it along?
A - I found a 4 oz rapid charger and yes, I did carry it the entire way to Katahdin. I would charge 2 sets of batteries, one in the camera and a set of spares. Never had a problem getting from one electric outlet to the next. Irony is though that now I use the Lithiums (AA size) and don't carry a charger at all any more.
Q - Did you carry the usb cable to connect to public computers or perhaps a card reader?
A - NO
Q - Did you mail cards home to be uploaded and sent back? or perhaps bounce along a battery powered one touch flash card copier HDD?
A - Already covered above
Q - cell phone or calling card? do you bounce the charger?
pocketmail or journal?
A - I carried a couple $20 phone cards that got me all the way to Katahdin. I did not carry a cell phone or pocket mail device. I did carry a small notepad that I used for journalling. Every 2 weeks or so I would send home my hand written pages and my wife would transcribe them in my on-lin journal.
Q - rio mp3 player (xtra cards) w/ 12 oz sony trs-77 amplified 1.5-inch speakers---I think this will be my big luxury.
Will it be annoying for me to play a lil music while at the shelter fixing dinner (bob marley).
A - If you don't have earphones ...YES, it will likely annoy some (if not all) of the hikers I carried a small AM/FM radio with earbuds so that I could tune out (or tune in, depending on your perspective) now and then.
Q - also, My wife and I like jamming when we hike, but I don't wanna completely destroy solitude for others on the trail.
What's the general consensus? (don't worry I'm still gonna take it--maybe ship it up to the 500 mile mark?)
what do you carry for entertainment?
journal, hacky sack (doubles as tripod), cards (great for an emergency shelter, lol), half a novel, frisbee (plate), thermarest 4-in-1 game set (5oz), suggestions? or don't bother b/c others are carrying the entertainment crap--
A - The trail and other hikers should be all you need for entertainment ...seriously !! Carry a small radio or mp3 player if you need a music fix now and then but you're gonna miss a lot if you have earphones on all the time. Some hikers carried a small frisbie or hackie and tossed/kicked it around at times. But you're actually kinda pooped most of the time so resting quietly, reading a book, listening to the natural sounds or rapping with other hikers will fill your day.
equipment and staying dry-------
Q - Do you use a pack cover (single use) or just go with the black garbage bag inside w/ everything in silnylon sacks and perhaps a second garbage back covering the outside?
A - I carry a silnylon pack cover and I use a plastic trash compactor bag as a liner in my pack.
For the people that wear trail runners
Q - Do you wear gaiters?
A - YES. Low gaiters in warmer months and high ones when it's cold. I hardly ever hiked in anything other than shorts so the gaiters, especially the high ones, are sorta like my pants legs, if you catch my drift.
when it rains?
Q - do you take a waterproof sock and just suck it up and walk thru the mosh pit? or change to camp shoes aka crocs/flipflops/sandals which I don't think would stay on your feet in the mud?
A - Depends on the outside temperature at the time. Early in the hike (March/April) I definitely tried to keep myself dry. I didn't change out of my trail shoes but I did put on rain gear. As the temps warmed up I just let it pour (most if the time). The rain washed away all the perspiration. Ater May I hardly ever used a rain coat again other than as an outer layer on cool/windy days.
Hope that helps. It's just one hiker's approach.
'Slogger
AT 2003
Whistler
07-19-2005, 21:08
how many times did you have to wash the bag on your thru hike? were you using a liner?
-->No liner, never washed for 1000+ miles. Seems to be holding up okay.
How often clean the water bladder and w/ what method?
How often do you clean the hose and w/ what method?
-->Never cleaned my Platypus bottles, but I never have anything in them except plain water.
How do you upload your photos, cycle video cards, recharge batteries along the trail.
-->I uploaded after I got home. My 256m card holds 300+ photos for my 3.1M camera [Fuji Finepix A330]. I took about 280 photos on one set of AA lithium batteries, and I'm still using the same ones. I carried a spare memory card and batteries just in case something got screwed up.
cell phone or calling card?
-->Calling card. Avoid payphones like the plague.
pocketmail or journal?
-->Pen and a memo pad. Finished pages were mailed home every now and then.
Will it be annoying for me to play a lil music while at the shelter fixing dinner (bob marley). What's the general consensus?
-->It never hurts to ask first.
what do you carry for entertainment?
-->My journal, sometimes a teeny radio on the off chance I can catch some decent music.
suggestions? or don't bother b/c others are carrying the entertainment crap
-->My suggestion is don't bother with it from the start. Just start hiking, and then experiment along the way, after you get some miles under your belt; you'll know your rhythm, be more efficient, and you'll know what kind of time you'll have on your hands.
Do you use a pack cover (single use) or just go with the black garbage bag inside w/ everything in silnylon sacks and perhaps a second garbage back covering the outside?
-->No rain cover, as I usually poncho if the rain is serious. I use silnylon sacks, and a garbage bag for a pack liner.
For the people that wear trail runners
Do you wear gaiters?
-->Never. Just another thing to fiddle with.
when it rains?
-->No, never. Well, maybe if I were snowshoeing or something.
do you take a waterproof sock and just suck it up and walk thru the mosh pit?
-->I just suck it up. Any decent set of trail shoes and socks will dry fairly quickly.
Also did anyone regret wearing just trail runners w/ crew socks?
-->No regrets! Trail shoes and mini-crews are my standard setup.
-Mark
soulrebel
07-20-2005, 09:09
Needed more reassurance about some of the electronica and the low cut trail shoes versus boots/gaiters.
Footslogger
07-20-2005, 10:15
Needed more reassurance about some of the electronica and the low cut trail shoes versus boots/gaiters.=================================
That's really not something someone else can assess for you. It's a matter of comfort and personal preference. For years I thought I'd never give up my boots (and still totally haven't) for fear of ankle injury, but during my thru in 2003 I switched to low cut trail shoes and I doubt I'll ever go back ...other than in really cold, nasty weather.
'Slogger
soulrebel
07-20-2005, 11:27
But alas, I feel like I'm getting away from the weight too easily...
To be blunt, I'm an endurance athlete that can be a bit overconfident when it comes to man vs nature.
I want to be comfortable...but compared to 20 years ago..the lightweight pack I now have along with trail runners===seems almost too easy if you know what i Mean hehe..
One of my main concerns is the ray-way setup I've got going for rain/cold situations. Maybe you've tried it or someone else has---I got in the cold shower with all this stuff last night and it seemed fine--but that doesn't equate to 24-7 in the woods. Any exp?
Basically, polypro or smartwool long sleeve crew top/bottoms, patagonia poly fill micropuff vest, patagonia houdini jacket/pants, fleece cap and tilley hat, golite umbrella, fleece gloves
I know none of it is waterproof, but clearly lightweight. Am I screwed? I'm hot natured, heavy sweater-30 something athlete, but nobody wants to be soaked to the bone miserable day after day. How cold, and wet will it be?
P.s.-I've actually bought marmot precip, golite reed, and the patagonia stuff and I just can't decide..It's really hard to get rid of the security of waterproof gear (even though I do have trash bags w/ me)
Bugging you kindly with thanks, soulrebel :)
p.s.s-returning the favor--You guys should clean those bladders out and not w/ beer lol--- water mold and hepatitis is very real on dirty dishes and plastic containers--I'm not obsessive about our bladder packs-but I still do it after a few weeks of use...
Washed my bag twice.
Only uploaded pics at home in PA ~halfway mark.
Hook up some cheapy portable speakers to the back of your pack and enjoy the walking. Would certainly caution using in camp, tho. I saw a guy in '99 with little speaks on his spack as was envious as hell everyday after that. For radio reception, run a copper wire thru your pack and attach to radio for better reception.
I hike in sandals. Somedays with socks, others without. Best gear decision I have ever made.
Ticks are my nemeses. No skeeter bites, but countless ticks. Not much you can do if you are a tick magnet, tho I found swithching from Smartwool to synthetics made a bit of a difference. Tickies love that wool
Hook up some cheapy portable speakers to the back of your pack and enjoy the walking. Would certainly caution using in camp, tho. I saw a guy in '99 with little speaks on his spack as was envious as hell everyday after that. For radio reception, run a copper wire thru your pack and attach to radio for better reception.
Hmmm...you hiked while music (or perhaps NPR talk) was audible from external speakers on the back of your pack? How did that go over with other hikers you encountered? How did the wildlife react? Wouldn't headphones or an ear bud have been a better idea?
soulrebel
07-20-2005, 12:31
Hmmm...you hiked while music (or perhaps NPR talk) was audible from external speakers on the back of your pack? How did that go over with other hikers you encountered? How did the wildlife react? Wouldn't headphones or an ear bud have been a better idea?
Yea, what do people think, I don't wanna become a pariah, but I have to admit we (wife and myself) enjoy having a soundtrack to our travels, not to mention it can be a nice distraction when I'm hoofing it up a big hill.
I don't wanna come across as a jerk, but is it so bad to wanna sing a song or hear some music while walking hour after hour? Matta o fact one of the songs I have is called the "walking song" from the big lebowski soundtrack, lol. It's actually an entertaining way to incorporate rhythmic breathing while traveling on ye shanks mare. I love birds and the sounds of nature, but at the same time, I like a lil misty mountain hop to put spring in the step.
It's my hike obviously, and I don't want to infringe on the solitude of nature, but then again, the AT is known as a social trail where all kinds of unusual things take place. So is it really a big deal if someone is "noise polluting" a 20 foot radius while hiking (not blaring at the camp mind you)....and would really loud farting fall while singing beans beans--good for the heart---fall into the same category?
Footslogger
07-20-2005, 13:06
[QUOTE=soulrebel]I don't wanna come across as a jerk, but is it so bad to wanna sing a song or hear some music while walking hour after hour? Matta o fact one of the songs I have is called the "walking song" from the big lebowski soundtrack, lol. It's actually an entertaining way to incorporate rhythmic breathing while traveling on ye shanks mare. I love birds and the sounds of nature, but at the same time, I like a lil misty mountain hop to put spring in the step.
==========================================
Guess it all depends where you are and who you're hiking with. In 2003 I hiked with a younger group for a while. They knew all the words to BG's songs (and a lot of others) that were near and dear to my heart. We would hike along, generally out of sight (but not out of ear shot from each other) and take turns singing verses and then everyone would chime in on the chorus. This went on for days and we were the only ones around ...so no foul, no damage.
But, you WILL meet a lot of hikers who undertake the journey for solace and quiet time. The sounds of electronic music won't sit too well with them. Again, as I said earlier, just take your earbuds and jam out by yourself. Unless you absolutely want to be with other people, it is possible to hike pretty much alone most of the time, in which case you can belt out a tune to your hearts content without infringing on the privacy or space of others. The animals may think you're off your rocker though.
'Slogger
---CLEANING---
how many times did you have to wash the bag on your thru hike? [I did not wash my bag, but switched to a summer bag, and both stink
were you using a liner? I only used my liner when it was very cold (with my bag) or very hot (without)
How often clean the water bladder and w/ what method? did not carry a bladder
How often do you clean the hose and w/ what method?
----electronics/games----
How do you upload your photos, cycle video cards, recharge batteries along the trail. I get a photo CD and mail it home, then upload later
Did you really carry the battery charger or bounce it along? I use lithium batteries, no charger
Did you carry the usb cable to connect to public computers or perhaps a card reader? no
cell phone or calling card? both, since my cell did not work everywheredo you bounce the charger?no, I carried it
pocketmail or journal?both, but my journal is quite small
what do you carry for entertainment? The trail and your buddies are your entertainment
equipment and staying dry-------
Do you use a pack cover (single use) or just go with the black garbage bag inside w/ everything in silnylon sacks and perhaps a second garbage back covering the outside? I use both! I line my pack with a trash compactor bag, use silnylon sacks, and a cover. By the way, things still will get wet, so I use a second trash compactor bag to make sure my bag stays dry
For the people that wear trail runners
Do you wear gaiters? no, but several times I wish I had, especially near poison ivy
when it rains?
do you take a waterproof sock and just suck it up and walk thru the mosh pit?
or change to camp shoes aka crocs/flipflops/sandals which I don't think would stay on your feet in the mud? I just walk through it. But in the blizzard, I got a couple of plastic bags for my feet inside my trailrunners.
Also did anyone regret wearing just trail runners w/ crew socks? I only questioned my choice of footwear on one occasion, April 2nd blizzard. I was cold and wet, but survived with no problems
dougmeredith
07-20-2005, 14:06
So is it really a big deal if someone is "noise polluting" a 20 foot radius while hiking (not blaring at the camp mind you) No it isn't. Those who are bothered by such things are intolerant and are trying to force others to change to accommodate them. This is quite rude, in my opinion.
Doug
soulrebel
07-20-2005, 14:11
Ok cool, thx doug-my wife's the one pushing that I take it --- which btw I'm not solo---she's going with me...we're gonna try killing ourselves the ray-way. I'll have lithium batteries so just follow the music to our bodies...
Btw, I'm usually the purist-and telling her no mp3 or electronics on our long workouts, but to each his own. I'm glad we have the freedom of the woods, the freedom of music, and the freedom to discuss this nonsensical topic. :)
No it isn't. Those who are bothered by such things are intolerant and are trying to force others to change to accommodate them. This is quite rude, in my opinion.
Doug
You could just as easily make the point that those who are playing the music without earbuds are selfish and trying to force others to comply with their tastes of music and hiking style. Even more rude imho.
I don't want to hear rap music coming up behind me on an uphill climb. I don't want someone's music scaring off what wildlife I might see. I have never seen anybody hike without earbuds, so the intrusion would be unique.
It seems the place to share your music would be at a shelter, while cooking dinner and getting to know one another.
After countless, endless days of nature, it was certainly a beautiful sound to hear KC and the Sunshine Band speaking directly to me from another hiker's backpack to play my funky music. Seriously, if walking up on someone with speakers while hiking is a problem, slow down, speed up, stop, the music will stop shortly. The volume is never much anyway, to better save battery life. What I wouldn't like is unsolicited music at a shelter, but if that was the case, I would pick up and move. An inconvenience for me, for sure, but better that than bending someone's elses wants to my own. Anyway, the rigging of speakers on a backpack just looks cool.
Footslogger
07-20-2005, 14:53
I'm pretty tolerant and I like music ...but I look at it from the standpoint that it's MY entertainment and not everyone elses. At the risk of repeating myself, I'll just say again that if you bring music with you and play it out loud on the trail or at shelters you're probably gonna tick someone off.
The way I look at it ...if having your music when you want it, where you want it and how loud you want it is MORE IMPORTANT to you than anything else then let it flow. But go at it with the understanding that you might be met with some oppostion.
'Slogger
---CLEANING---
how many times did you have to wash the bag on your thru hike? were you using a liner?
My synthetic gets washed every now & then, never on the trail. Used a liner one night, Yep, all twisted up.
How often clean the water bladder and w/ what method?
Hot water in town. I NEVER put drink mix in it.
How often do you clean the hose and w/ what method?
Same as above.
Anybody else use degreaser (aka grease lightning) as a pre-wash to remove funk from your polypro clothing? It seems to break up the residue oil and wash away if you use warm water.
No, no plans.
----electronics/games----
How do you upload your photos, cycle video cards, recharge batteries along the trail.
Did you really carry the battery charger or bounce it along?
Did you carry the usb cable to connect to public computers or perhaps a card reader?
Did you mail cards home to be uploaded and sent back? or perhaps bounce along a battery powered one touch flash card copier HDD?
No to all of the above.
Cell phone or calling card? do you bounce the charger?
pocketmail or journal?
Calling card. Cell phones are one of the things I am getting away from when on the trail. Please do not use one anywhere near me.
rio mp3 player (xtra cards) w/ 12 oz sony trs-77 amplified 1.5-inch speakers---I think this will be my big luxury.
Will it be annoying for me to play a lil music while at the shelter fixing dinner (bob marley). also, My wife and I like jamming when we hike, but I don't wanna completely destroy solitude for others on the trail.
Use earphones, K. I find I need none, some carry a radio for weather. And no matter what, someone will not like your music, nor apreciate you playing it.
what do you carry for entertainment?
journal, hacky sack (doubles as tripod), cards (great for an emergency shelter, lol), half a novel, frisbee (plate), thermarest 4-in-1 game set (5oz), suggestions? or don't bother b/c others are carrying the entertainment crap---
A small foldable frisbee type thing, a PVC transverse flute (& sheet music) for when I am in camp alone.
equipment and staying dry-------
Do you use a pack cover (single use) or just go with the black garbage bag inside w/ everything in silnylon sacks and perhaps a second garbage back covering the outside?
Trash compactor bags inside the pack. I find pack covers worsen the problem of water getting in the pack.
For the people that wear trail runners
Do you wear gaiters?
when it rains?
do you take a waterproof sock and just suck it up and walk thru the mosh pit?
Squish squish for me.
Doctari.
dougmeredith
07-20-2005, 15:15
You could just as easily make the point that those who are playing the music without earbuds are selfish and trying to force others to comply with their tastes of music and hiking style. Even more rude imho. If we were talking about music in camp I would agree with this. On the trail is different. As Yahtzee pointed out, you can easily avoid prolonged exposure to music on the trail. If you are hiking WITH someone who plays music either ask them to stop or hike by yourself.
It is ridiculous and arrogant to say that no one should play music on the trail because you might be bothered by hearing it. Some want a completely rustic experience. Some love technology. Neither is right. Don't ask someone else to change to suit you.
I don’t play a radio while hiking and I wouldn’t want to hike with anyone who did. But if I passed someone playing a radio, I wouldn’t complain. Why should I expect them to do what I want for eight hours so that I can avoid 30 seconds that don’t go my way?
Doug
I have 6 different freakin camelbacks! (I am in the Army, 5 of them were courtesy of you the American Taxpayer) Keeping them clean is simple.
First and foremost! My experience has shown that camelbacks only get nasty after being left alone and stored with water in them. I have used them a few times for months straight and never had them get dirty inside or mildewy. So if you rinse and air dry them and disconnect the hose before putting them away they will stay very clean.
there are 2 ways to do it; the easy way and the cheap way.
Easy Way: Spend the bank on the camel-back accesories. there is a bladder brush and a tube brush (they work like a charm)and a frame that fits in the reservior hole that keeps the bladder expanded and has a hook so you can hang it on somthing to dry it out. in order to sanitize it Camelback sells these tablets that drop into a full bladder and fizz off like alka-seltzer . it's not for purifying water it's to sanitize the bag.
Cheap Way: Use a coat hanger broken down and bent straight to push through soapy cotton balls or a torn off piece of dish rag. it takes a bit of elbow grease and a few minutes. the best improvised method I have found is to use a gun cleaning rod and some fresh swabs. you can do the same with the bladder. The way you can sanitize the bladder for cheap and get rid of residual tastes (some things like booze and sports drink seem to linger no matter what you do) and "freshen up" your camelback is to use efferdent (or generic brand) denture cleaner tabs. Seriously , about six of these tabs left in a bladder over night with warm water and a little room for expansion and then rinse thoroughly will get rid of most mild funny tastes.
I would certainly not be surprised if someone didn't like me playing music while hiking. What would surprise me is being asked to turn it off instead of the other person moving on. The shelters seem to be a communal place where communal standards need to be respected, but the trail, the physical walking path, that is a free-for-all where if you don't like something, you can turn the next corner and it will be gone. If there is a hiker I don't like, or someone has a habit that I am not keen on, I make it a point not to go where they go, unless I'm itchin' for some fun.
Anyway, I have only ever seen one hiker with speakers on their pack, so I assume it would be more novelty than annoyance. People, I hesitate to call them hikers, who get annoyed so easily by a ten to twenty second sound bite of tunage need to go hiking and relax. It is that bit of false logic that springs up from time to time, usually in LNT conversations, "If everybody did it...."
It is ridiculous and arrogant to say that no one should play music on the trail because you might be bothered by hearing it. Some want a completely rustic experience. Some love technology. Neither is right. Don't ask someone else to change to suit you.Doug
It is just as ridiculous and arrogant to think that other people don't mind hearing your music, and too bad if it happens to ruin their peace and quiet in the woods, you'll be gone past them soon. Now THAT is arrogance.
I would enjoy hearing other's music in the quiet woods about as much as I enjoy hearing the boom boxes on other cars while I'm stopped at a stoplight. It only lasts a couple of minutes, but can be irritating as hell.
I could care less if someone wants to listen to music as they hike. I never said no one should play music on the trail and I would rather you quit putting words in my mouth. I would hope they would find the courtesy to use earbuds, rather than blast it from speakers attached to their packs. Would I say anything to them? of course not, that would be rude......
dougmeredith
07-20-2005, 20:40
I would enjoy hearing other's music in the quiet woods about as much as I enjoy hearing the boom boxes on other cars while I'm stopped at a stoplight. It only lasts a couple of minutes, but can be irritating as hell.What if you found red shirts irritating? Groups of more than three hikers? Large tents? Body odor? Get over it. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it rude.
I could care less if someone wants to listen to music as they hike. I never said no one should play music on the trail and I would rather you quit putting words in my mouth. I started my post with this quote from you: "You could just as easily make the point that those who are playing the music without earbuds are selfish and trying to force others to comply with their tastes of music and hiking style." I assumed everyone would understand from the context that we were talking about music that was audible to others. I understand that you don't object to earphones and wasn't trying to imply that you did. If you thought I was trying to put words in your mouth I can only apologize.
I feel strongly about my position on this topic, but I realize that it is legitimate for people to feel differently. I am bowing out of this discussion before things get out off hand. Lilredmg, I hope you didn't take my comments as a personal attack. They weren't intended as such.
Doug