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greenmtnboy
06-11-2013, 09:29
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/06/05/is-barefoot-style-running-best-new-studies-cast-doubt/

"The primary lesson of the accumulating new science about barefoot-style running, he says, is that “the biomechanics of running are not simple, and generic proclamations” — like claims that all runners will benefit from barefoot-style shoes and running form — “are surely incorrect.'”

HikerMom58
06-11-2013, 09:44
That's interesting...my daughter was injured by running in minimalist shoes. She still can't run in them for long periods of time without feeling pain up in her knee.

FarmerChef
06-11-2013, 10:03
That's interesting...my daughter was injured by running in minimalist shoes. She still can't run in them for long periods of time without feeling pain up in her knee.

sorry to hear that, HM. I'm a big minimalist shoe wearer and have completely converted both in running and daily shoes. But I strongly counsel potential minimalist wearers to start very, very slowly and see if it works for them. I think too many folks think it will be a "quick fix" for all their other running form problems and try to put in a normal workout on their first run in them. That's almost a guarantee for pain at least and injury at worst. I'm not saying that's what happened for your daughter, just that that's what I see from others who come to me with their stories. As with all things, it really takes time, lots of time. It's no silver bullet but it's been a huge relief for me. As a big runner who puts in at least 35 miles per week - I'm a believer. Time wil tell...

greenmtnboy
06-11-2013, 10:20
I have low density feet, I definitely felt pain the past when my footwear was insubstantial. If you walk with foot problems chances are you will walk less which as we all know is the healthiest exercise in tandem with swimming....I wear Limmer standards, size 14 narrow or Asolo Fugitives size 13.

Pedaling Fool
06-11-2013, 10:45
I have one major problem with the article and that is this excerpt:

"Then, in a separate experiment, they asked each runner to switch styles — the heel-strikers were to land near the balls of their feet and the forefoot strikers with their heels — while the researchers gathered the same data as before.

In the end, this data showed that heel-striking was the more physiologically economical running form, by a considerable margin. Heel strikers used less oxygen to run at the same pace as forefoot strikers, and many of the forefoot strikers used less oxygen — meaning they were more economical — when they switched form to land first with their heels.

Most of the runners also burned fewer carbohydrates as a percentage of their energy expenditure when they struck first with their heels. Their bodies turned to fats and other fuel sources, “sparing” the more limited stores of carbohydrates, says Allison Gruber, a postdoctoral fellow at the University of Massachusetts Amherst, who led the study. Because depleting carbohydrates results in “hitting the wall,” or abruptly sagging with fatigue, “these results tell us that people will hit the wall faster if they are running with a forefoot pattern versus a rear-foot pattern,” Dr. Gruber says."

I'm not concerned about the issue of injuries WRT to heel strikes, but I do question the efficiency issue, but will not comment until I research it a little more.

However, with respect to injuries, it does make me wonder if (barring overuse injuries) how some people would have coped back in the hunter/gatherer days.

There are just far more people living in our modern times, thanks to society, science and technology. With out that support structure so many people born with weaknesses are allowed to live with no real problems. We, just like animals, used to die off in large numbers. Nature presents us with so many challenges, that even ones that are considered small (such as issues with feet) in today's world were major problems with out the support structure we have today.

Majortrauma
06-11-2013, 11:13
I ran track in highschool, ran for 21 years in the Marine Corps and have continued to run regularly since my retirement from USMC in 2002. I converted to minimalist shoes (vibrams) in 2010 and will NEVER go back to my previous type of running shoe. Running in my vibrams was a total game changer for me and I wish I had broken the code on that when they first came out. My runs are MUCH more relaxed and my times are faster and I can run longer. They're not for everyone but for me they're the best.
The cynic in me says follow the money and I'd be very interested in knowing how that research was funded that cast a negative light on minimalist shoes.

Slo-go'en
06-11-2013, 11:32
However, with respect to injuries, it does make me wonder if (barring overuse injuries) how some people would have coped back in the hunter/gatherer days.

Back in prehistoric days the surfaces people ran and walked on were quite a bit different than what is typcial for "civilized" runners today. They also started at a very early age. Even so, some kind of footware to protect the feet was likely one of the first pieces of clothing invented.

greenmtnboy
06-11-2013, 14:09
This all depends on the person, but how many people have done serious damage to their feet by using poor footwear? You may not feel it at 20, 30 or 40, probably you will later and that goes for any irresponsible physical behavior. As for the evolutionary argument that nature used to snuff out the weak and predators would come along and feed on them (and still do), frankly everyone has a weakness, it may come as blindness to one's own faults, insensitivity to the needs and concerns of others, or physical shortcoming (and no one is anywhere near perfect). 'Men were brought into existence for the sake of men that they might do one another good.' (Roman. Cicero. De Off. i. vii)

Pedaling Fool
06-11-2013, 15:55
I've been looking at some videos on running, still really got questions about heel strikes. I've always associated heel strikes with overstriding, thus creating an undue breaking action. So I really do wonder what they mean by Heel strikes being more efficient?

Some people do naturally heel strike, but me personally I'd either have to overstride or flex my foot unnaturally to heel strike. And if you watch these videos, not much in the way of heel strikes. But I'm going running now, and I'll think about it more during the run:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsUfo_jHQ60

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTMgIViinuQ

Longer video, but very interesting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJWPwVF30yo


BTW, Yes we all have weaknesses and we really don't know them all thank to our pampered life styles.

Dogwood
06-11-2013, 16:46
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/06/05/is-barefoot-style-running-best-new-studies-cast-doubt/

"The primary lesson of the accumulating new science about barefoot-style running, he says, is that “the biomechanics of running are not simple, and generic proclamations” — like claims that all runners will benefit from barefoot-style shoes and running form — “are surely incorrect.'”

Minimalist and bare foot running is the "in thing" but I agree this type running and like wise designed running shoes are not a panacea for everyone's running /biomechanical issues. I'm not a hard core day in day out runner but personally like doing my running in HOKA brand running shoes. After I got over their funky appearance I don't think I'll ever run in any other show. They are super cushiony with a good rocker and quite light wt. They are certainly not mimimalist in design. They are just the opposite.

HooKooDooKu
06-11-2013, 17:40
However, with respect to injuries, it does make me wonder if (barring overuse injuries) how some people would have coped back in the hunter/gatherer days.

In addition to Slo-go'en points, I would simply add the words "survival of the fittest". In those days, if you couldn't keep up, you didn't eat (if you didn't have someone that would take care of you).

Pedaling Fool
06-11-2013, 18:48
Back in prehistoric days the surfaces people ran and walked on were quite a bit different than what is typcial for "civilized" runners today. They also started at a very early age. Even so, some kind of footware to protect the feet was likely one of the first pieces of clothing invented.


In addition to Slo-go'en points, I would simply add the words "survival of the fittest". In those days, if you couldn't keep up, you didn't eat (if you didn't have someone that would take care of you).
I really didn't make a good point with the second half of my post regarding "questions" I have (other than the question of heel strikes). The thoughts I have on those other topics kind of petered out as I typed and I ended up not making a good point.

Too tired right now to give it another shot, especially since I'm most interested right now in what they were talking about when they claimed heel strikes are more efficient.

However, I will say that WRT the surfaces we run on today compared to back in the hunter/gatherer days, is that we simply don't know the average surfaces they ran on. If they mainly ran on sand, then yes that's much different than what we run on nowadays. But chances are, seeing how we supposedly evolved this running ability in the African savannas, then I think that our modern shoes more than makeup for the differences in hardness of surfaces. Yes there is more "give" to most natural ground, but it's not like you're running on rose pedals. Then you got rocks and stuff.

It kind of reminds me of the guys that insist on running in the road in lieu of the sidewalk, because asphalt has more "give" than concrete. Yes, that's true, but it really doesn't matter to a body that weighs about 200lbs, at that measly weight you're not really getting significant cushioning on the asphalt vs. the concrete.



It's probably true that footwear is one of the first articles of clothing we invented and that opens another question, but again, I'm too tired right now...

dtougas
06-19-2013, 13:26
I think a lot of the problems people experience with minimalist shoes comes down to conditioning. If you spend the first thirty to forty years of your life in over-supportive footwear, you can't expect to un-learn all of the bio-mechanical bad habits, and re-build all of the new muscles in a month. Or a year for that matter.

I am a firm believer in minimalist footwear, I think it really does work, and really does make a difference. But, I think that if you want to really avoid injury an take full advantage of what barefoot shoes have to offer, you have to take the long slow road, and really turn it into a lifestyle change.

There was a point in my past where I couldn't run and I had a lot of foot and knee pain (prior to the current minimalist fad). I stopped running. I stopped hiking. I did a lot of research and determined that the path to healing for me was minimal. Now, after almost 5 years of self-rehabilitation and foot strengthening, I am running again - pain free. I probably could have started sooner, but I wasn't in any rush, I did a lot of hiking instead. I actually think that all of that hiking on uneven terrain in FiveFingers really helped to strengthen my feet in preparation for running.

SawnieRobertson
06-20-2013, 11:19
I grew up in an almost tropical area of Texas. Many children went to school without shoes. At school I wore shoes. The rest of the time, I was barefoot if allowed. It was warm enough all year long for even cotton socks to be uncomfortably hot. Having thick callouses was a matter of pride as they served as "protective footwear." Even as a young housewife in a moderately affluent neighborhood of Austin, I could be caught barefoot in the grass. Flipflops were my defense against being ostracized. I have flat feet. Hiking the trail in Vasque Sundowners brought me to tears with plantar fasciitis that lasted a full year and forced me to give up a job that I loved as a back office (lab) medical assistant. I have orthotics but have found that as in most things, less is better. Feet touching the world makes me feel younger (but not while backpacking on the trail, where Ilchoose the minimalist trail runners).--Kinnickinic