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I will be interviewing Tavis Piattoly, Sports Dietitian/Nutrition Consultant for the New Orleans Saints and Tulane University, for an article about thru-hiker diet and nutrition on my blog. Before I did that, I was wondering if anyone had any specific nutrition questions you'd like to have answered. He's familiar with the unique challenges thru-hikers face, like no access to kitchens, refrigeration, daily fresh produce, the need to reduce pack weight, etc.
I have many questions, but I'm sure there are many I haven't considered. Any suggestions?
Not so much a specific question as much as a specific interest area. The major difference between LD backpacking and most other endurance sports is the duration. I believe this difference is a major source of "misinformation" or at a minimum lack of consensus around approach.
a couple of areas.
1) Daily recovery? Recommendations.
2) will eating fats while hiking increase the total caloric contribution from fat or will it reduce the calories that your body burns from fat keeping it constant. (The answer to this question would determine carb/fat ratio while hiking.)
3) protein requirements? Often this is expressed as a percentage of total calories. That doesn't seem to make sense if caloric intake increases from 3500-7000 calories that protein requirements would also double. This becomes more critical for folks that are doing high mile averages.
I'll be very interested in reading the results of your interview. I hope you post it here or post the link to your blog here. Although I hike a lot and I think I eat pretty smart I really don't have enough knowledge on the subject to ask good questions:)
max patch
06-15-2013, 10:42
I think asking for a 1 day menu and then comparing it to what we eat would be interesting.
A 1 day menu for me would be close to reality as I ate almost the same thing for breakfast and lunch every day I was on trail.
SawnieRobertson
06-15-2013, 11:03
Any special advice for those who are hypothyroid would be appreciated.
Mizirlou
06-15-2013, 11:48
Ryan, how about touching on the common practice of food binge episodes, ie.,
hike and eat small amounts frequently; hit town and eat massive amounts at once.
Will you post a link to your completed interview? Tks.
Mizirlou
06-15-2013, 13:07
I will be interviewing Tavis Piattoly, Sports Dietitian/Nutrition Consultant for the New Orleans Saints and Tulane University, for an article about thru-hiker diet and nutrition on my blog.
Ryan, I did some addl digging. In a video interview Tavis talks about pre- and post-game nutrition and half-time snacks. I’m not a nutrition scientist but I’m extrapolating some of the info for my long distance hikes. Not applicable? Partially applicable? Nail it down, pls.
Overall
Get proper intake of fat-fiber-protein. Avoid dairy. Watch carbs.
Night before hiking (pre-game)
Low sat fat, low fiber
While hiking (half-time)
Nuts, fruit, peanut butter, nutrition bar
He generally avoids the use of supplements for his athletes, but he does recommend Generation U Can as a carb supplement which stabilizes blood sugar.
http://www.generationucan.com/home.html
Ryan, how about touching on the common practice of food binge episodes, ie.,
hike and eat small amounts frequently; hit town and eat massive amounts at once.
Will you post a link to your completed interview? Tks.
+2 Ditto. It's my personal concern too. I hope he doesn't go into a whole diatribe about blood glucose levels. I'm concerned about binge eating episodes as they relate to the later stages of a long hike like a thru-hike and how it's to be managed post hike. IMO, lots of differences between an adequate diet for an NFL player and a thru-hiker. Upfront, I want to hear him acknowledge how those diets need to be different and how so.
Ryan, thanks for starting the thread and staying connected. You might want to look at some of these blogs or pick up some of Doctor Brenda Braaten's work on thru-hiker diets.
http://thru-hiker.com/articles/pack_light_eat_right.php
http://www.100megsfree3.com/wordsmith/backpacking/hikerdiet.html
Bearhawk
06-15-2013, 14:16
Ryan,
When I was planning my hike I was trying to stay on my no sugar-no grain diet to stay metabolically efficient and use my body's ability to use stored fat for fuel and not rely on an intake of carbohydrates. I found it very difficult to find foods that were light weight and high in dietary fat. I ended up eating a lot of tuna, nuts, almond butter, and dried fruit-mainly berries.
I would like to for you to ask if he has any other recommendations for good trail foods that would be high in dietary fat, moderate protein , and low in carbohydrates.
Please post a link to your interview and blog. Thanks
Mizirlou
06-15-2013, 14:28
One more -- beer as a sports drink? carb loading?:)
Nice writing, Ryan --> www.ABackpackersLife.com
Pedaling Fool
06-15-2013, 20:27
Something I’ve always wondered is how the body gets so efficient over time in doing the same thing and I guess that leads to the question: If one starts out a thru-hike with not much hiking experience obviously their dietary needs are going to be far greater in the beginning for certain things, like fats, proteins, carbs….
However, once you get your “Legs” (say in about 500 miles) seems like you can reduce those dietary requirements. After all, when hiking you (under normal conditions) only lose weight to a certain point, despite eating basically the same stuff, yet hiking far more than in the beginning.
It seems to me you can force your body to become more efficient on less food, understanding you need to be careful of how you do this. But this is probably beyond the scope in what you’re looking for in your interview.
BTW, I don’t consider thru-hiking as an endurance event, at least not the way most of us hike. Don’t get me wrong, it’s definitely an athletic endeavor and it’s probably one of the best ways to develop a kickass aerobic base. However, after most get their legs they tend to plateau and it just becomes an exercise in maintaining a certain level of walking.
I believe if it were an endurance event, then not too many people would come out of their rooms while in town and would be walking around with a sort of long-distance stare. Rather, what you see are hikers celebrating in town, not the actions of someone participating in an endurance event, at least not physically; yes it could be considered a psychological endurance event, but not physically, at least for most of us.
P.S. Obviously, speed-hikers, such as JPD, are participating in an endurance event.
Sailing_Faith
06-15-2013, 20:39
Please ask if there is any real life data that might support joint healthy diet.
I am interested in low inflammatory foods, I eat low carb and am trying to avoid genetically modified foods... It seems to me that the connection to inflammatory response and hiking / endurance related injuries might be something that diet might factor into.
i can try to make that more clear if it is not. :)
Not so much a specific question as much as a specific interest area. The major difference between LD backpacking and most other endurance sports is the duration. I believe this difference is a major source of "misinformation" or at a minimum lack of consensus around approach.
a couple of areas.
1) Daily recovery? Recommendations.
2) will eating fats while hiking increase the total caloric contribution from fat or will it reduce the calories that your body burns from fat keeping it constant. (The answer to this question would determine carb/fat ratio while hiking.)
3) protein requirements? Often this is expressed as a percentage of total calories. That doesn't seem to make sense if caloric intake increases from 3500-7000 calories that protein requirements would also double. This becomes more critical for folks that are doing high mile averages.
Excellent questions. And I've had the question about protein as well. I've read totally conflicting things about that, but I think dietary supplement salesman muddy the waters a bit. One thing I have learned in my research so far is that there seems to be a limit to how much protein your body can absorb, so you're right, increasing calories doesn't mean we should increase protein as well. I will definitely ask these questions. Thanks for you help!
Please ask if there is any real life data that might support joint healthy diet.
I am interested in low inflammatory foods, I eat low carb and am trying to avoid genetically modified foods... It seems to me that the connection to inflammatory response and hiking / endurance related injuries might be something that diet might factor into.
i can try to make that more clear if it is not. :)
This is of particilar interest to me too. I can tell you this SF there is plenty of research in the real world that tell us what foods, lifestyle choices(ex:smoking, excesive drinking, excessive protein intake, etc), etc DEFINITELY have a negaitive impact on joints and likewise create or contribute to a pro inflammatory respone in the body. There are foods(and also lifestyle choices) that definitely CAN contibute to less inflammation. No doubt about it,; reserach is available to address your questions.
I think asking for a 1 day menu and then comparing it to what we eat would be interesting.
A 1 day menu for me would be close to reality as I ate almost the same thing for breakfast and lunch every day I was on trail.
That's another great idea too! In a future post I'll also be taking this new nutrition information (along with better cooks than me) to come up with some great backpacking meals, which are more calorie dense, cheaper, and use ingredients that are versatile enough to use in multiple ways. I have a couple ideas now for meals that would provide 6,500 for the same cost as one Mountain House meal.
That should have been 6,500 calories*
Any special advice for those who are hypothyroid would be appreciated.
No problem!
Ryan, how about touching on the common practice of food binge episodes, ie.,
hike and eat small amounts frequently; hit town and eat massive amounts at once.
Will you post a link to your completed interview? Tks.
This is a question I also had as well. Binge eating in town can really reduce the pack weight, but on a 5-7 day stretch on the trail can you avoid fatigue or hunger. I'll definitely ask about this. Thanks for the input!
Ryan, I did some addl digging. In a video interview Tavis talks about pre- and post-game nutrition and half-time snacks. I’m not a nutrition scientist but I’m extrapolating some of the info for my long distance hikes. Not applicable? Partially applicable? Nail it down, pls.
Overall
Get proper intake of fat-fiber-protein. Avoid dairy. Watch carbs.
Night before hiking (pre-game)
Low sat fat, low fiber
While hiking (half-time)
Nuts, fruit, peanut butter, nutrition bar
I have had a few email conversations with him where he talked a little about this, but I'll get more details in our phone interview (which will probably take place next week.) Also, he's excited about this and said he's going to also be posting a podcast on the subject. I'm really looking forward to having a very experienced sports dietitian devote time to long distance backpacking. That is rare information on the internet. He's also science-based and as you said, not pushing supplements, so I trust him on this.
+2 Ditto. It's my personal concern too. I hope he doesn't go into a whole diatribe about blood glucose levels. I'm concerned about binge eating episodes as they relate to the later stages of a long hike like a thru-hike and how it's to be managed post hike. IMO, lots of differences between an adequate diet for an NFL player and a thru-hiker. Upfront, I want to hear him acknowledge how those diets need to be different and how so.
Ryan, thanks for starting the thread and staying connected. You might want to look at some of these blogs or pick up some of Doctor Brenda Braaten's work on thru-hiker diets.
http://thru-hiker.com/articles/pack_light_eat_right.php
http://www.100megsfree3.com/wordsmith/backpacking/hikerdiet.html
Thanks Dogwood, this is one of my top questions too. And thinks for the links. I've read a lot of thru-hiker.com, which seems to be one of the best resources on the subject that I have found. I'll look into the other one too. Thanks again!
Ryan,
When I was planning my hike I was trying to stay on my no sugar-no grain diet to stay metabolically efficient and use my body's ability to use stored fat for fuel and not rely on an intake of carbohydrates. I found it very difficult to find foods that were light weight and high in dietary fat. I ended up eating a lot of tuna, nuts, almond butter, and dried fruit-mainly berries.
I would like to for you to ask if he has any other recommendations for good trail foods that would be high in dietary fat, moderate protein , and low in carbohydrates.
Please post a link to your interview and blog. Thanks
Will do, Bearhawk! I've been spending a lot of hours online and in the grocery store searching for that as well. I'll post that information sometime after the interview post. My Pacific Crest Trail thru-hike starts in April '14, so this year I'm devoting a lot of my time to learning from my beginner mistakes on my Appalachian Trail hike, and talking to experts. You'll be able to find the article at ABackpackersLife.com, but I'll post a direct link here when it's available.
One more -- beer as a sports drink? carb loading?:)
Nice writing, Ryan --> www.ABackpackersLife.com (http://www.ABackpackersLife.com)
Hah! I might make that my final question. I wonder how he would feel about the 24-hour beer challenge, 24 beers, 24 miles lol.
Something I’ve always wondered is how the body gets so efficient over time in doing the same thing and I guess that leads to the question: If one starts out a thru-hike with not much hiking experience obviously their dietary needs are going to be far greater in the beginning for certain things, like fats, proteins, carbs….
However, once you get your “Legs” (say in about 500 miles) seems like you can reduce those dietary requirements. After all, when hiking you (under normal conditions) only lose weight to a certain point, despite eating basically the same stuff, yet hiking far more than in the beginning.
It seems to me you can force your body to become more efficient on less food, understanding you need to be careful of how you do this. But this is probably beyond the scope in what you’re looking for in your interview.
This is very similar to a question I asked him over email, which in part prompted setting up a phone interview. Every question he answered just made me think of more questions lol.
Please ask if there is any real life data that might support joint healthy diet.
I am interested in low inflammatory foods, I eat low carb and am trying to avoid genetically modified foods... It seems to me that the connection to inflammatory response and hiking / endurance related injuries might be something that diet might factor into.
i can try to make that more clear if it is not. :)
I totally understand and from what I've learned so far, many foods have excellent anti-inflammatory properties. Karin Hosenfeld, a dietitian out of Dallas, is actually writing a guest post for me on this exact subject. It will actually be posted before this Tavis interview. I'll come back here with a link when it's up.
Sailing_Faith
06-16-2013, 01:59
I totally understand and from what I've learned so far, many foods have excellent anti-inflammatory properties. Karin Hosenfeld, a dietitian out of Dallas, is actually writing a guest post for me on this exact subject. It will actually be posted before this Tavis interview. I'll come back here with a link when it's up.
Wow, thanks. I look forward to reading the link.
Mizirlou
06-16-2013, 09:24
I think asking for a 1 day menu and then comparing it to what we eat would be interesting.
A 1 day menu for me would be close to reality as I ate almost the same thing for breakfast and lunch every day I was on trail.
The simplicity of Max Patch’s meal plan grabs me. What exactly did you eat, MP?
Like you, Ryan, a non-supplemented diet appeals to me. Still, I’m giving the low-glycemic-index carb supplement (which Tavis Piattoly mentioned) a closer look. Billed as a superstarch with no crash. Seems to fit with my no-cook hiking -- aha! another realm for you and Tavis to discuss. So when you hit the PCT in April ’14, be the guinea pig, Ryan – does it suppress food cravings? does it blunt the urge to overindulge at resupply points?
Thanks for seeking our input and adding to the knowledge base. For a guy who appreciates disentangling from societal pressures, consider yourself entangled.
Eyeballing you while you follow your bliss :sun
http://ryangrayson.blogspot.com/2012/11/my-sixteen-months-of-wandering.html
Ryan,
One more question. Does a low glycemic index diet matter while engaging in constant physical activity? On a couple of occasions I have tried to force a sugar crash by eating no other calories for three hours other than Koolaid. But i had no crash. I have not been able to see any difference between high and low glycemic index carbs during exercise. This also assumes metering the calories in about 100 every 20 minutes.
I personally believe the sugar crash is a myth in the context though I have hear some extremely well respected long distance hikers talk about it. Fact, myth or individual dependent?
max patch
06-16-2013, 13:03
The simplicity of Max Patch’s meal plan grabs me. What exactly did you eat, MP?
I don't think eating the same thing everyday is that unusual, but this is what worked for me.
Breakfast: Tang, 2 packets instant oatmeal (usually uncooked - less hassle) nonfat dry milk, honey, raisins, multi vitamin.
Lunch: Bagel with peanut butter and jelly, a large hunk of cheddar cheese, and whatever gorp I was carrying at the time.
The only time I varied from this was if I left town in the morning I would sometimes buy a sub for lunch later that day or if the trail was close to a deli or convenience store I'd get whatever they had.
I don't think eating the same thing everyday is that unusual, but this is what worked for me.
Breakfast: Tang, 2 packets instant oatmeal (usually uncooked - less hassle) nonfat dry milk, honey, raisins, multi vitamin.
Lunch: Bagel with peanut butter and jelly, a large hunk of cheddar cheese, and whatever gorp I was carrying at the time.
The only time I varied from this was if I left town in the morning I would sometimes buy a sub for lunch later that day or if the trail was close to a deli or convenience store I'd get whatever they had.
One question I have for Tavis is that when you look at estimates of caloric needs for certain activities, someone of my weight, pack weight, age, and gender needs 8,000 calories a day. I've never eaten that. I'm curious what your weight, average miles, etc were with this diet. I eat more than this in my sedentary months lol.
SF, I was reluctant to mention joint and inflammation supplements as I opt to address these issues through the eating of whole foods when not hiking but when on trail I find this hard to do entirely so take two soft gels of New Chapter Zyflamend which has 10 herbs for inflammation(this has worked well FOR ME!) as well as 1500 mg Glucosamine sulfate, 1200 mg Chondroitin, 5000-8000 mg MSM(methylsufonylmethane, 200 mg Hyaluronic Acid, 2000 mg Krill Oil(/fish oil(Omegas), 400 mg SaMe, and 200 mg Pycogenol for joints and inflammation daily. I also take about 5000 I.U.s of NATURAL MIXED Tocopherols(Vit E) daily which do several things including abating inflammation. I guess it's part of being conditioned but I rarely feel discomfort and pain in my joints or experience much inflammation as I hike anymore.
The simplicity of Max Patch’s meal plan grabs me. What exactly did you eat, MP?
Like you, Ryan, a non-supplemented diet appeals to me. Still, I’m giving the low-glycemic-index carb supplement (which Tavis Piattoly mentioned) a closer look. Billed as a superstarch with no crash. Seems to fit with my no-cook hiking -- aha! another realm for you and Tavis to discuss. So when you hit the PCT in April ’14, be the guinea pig, Ryan – does it suppress food cravings? does it blunt the urge to overindulge at resupply points?
I'll be happy to be the guinea pig lol. I'm also going to be seeing how cheaply I can do a thru-hike. Part of it will be reducing that overindulgence in towns. After the AT I decided I'm devoting as much of my life to long distance backpacking as possible. If I can make it cheaper, I'll be able to take more trips. My ultimate goal is to shoot for 50 cents per mile. Just to see if and how that would be possible. If I can hike the PCT for $1350 I might even be able to fund it as I go. We'll see if it works out hah.
Thanks for seeking our input and adding to the knowledge base. For a guy who appreciates disentangling from societal pressures, consider yourself entangled.
Eyeballing you while you follow your bliss :sun
http://ryangrayson.blogspot.com/2012/11/my-sixteen-months-of-wandering.html
Thanks Mizirlou! If you have any ideas for future articles let me know. I have a few in the hopper, but I'm always trying to think of new things to write about.
Ryan,
One more question. Does a low glycemic index diet matter while engaging in constant physical activity? On a couple of occasions I have tried to force a sugar crash by eating no other calories for three hours other than Koolaid. But i had no crash. I have not been able to see any difference between high and low glycemic index carbs during exercise. This also assumes metering the calories in about 100 every 20 minutes.
I personally believe the sugar crash is a myth in the context though I have hear some extremely well respected long distance hikers talk about it. Fact, myth or individual dependent?
I like that you did the experiment yourself lol. I've had my moments when I felt the crash, but I never took any notes on what my diet was that day. I just stop to eat or add some electrolytes to my water. I'll ask him about it. My assumptions are that it will depend on the individual. Do you mind if I ask your age?
SF, I was reluctant to mention joint and inflammation supplements as I opt to address these issues through the eating of whole foods when not hiking but when on trail I find this hard to do entirely so take two soft gels of New Chapter Zyflamend which has 10 herbs for inflammation(this has worked well FOR ME!) as well as 1500 mg Glucosamine sulfate, 1200 mg Chondroitin, 5000-8000 mg MSM(methylsufonylmethane, 200 mg Hyaluronic Acid, 2000 mg Krill Oil(/fish oil(Omegas), 400 mg SaMe, and 200 mg Pycogenol for joints and inflammation daily. I also take about 5000 I.U.s of NATURAL MIXED Tocopherols(Vit E) daily which do several things including abating inflammation. I guess it's part of being conditioned but I rarely feel discomfort and pain in my joints or experience much inflammation as I hike anymore.
I had such bad joint pain toward the end of the AT that it was hard to sleep at night without a sleep aid. I took Mobic that I got from my doctor, but it's hard to say if it helped at all. I'm looking forward to hearing what Karin has to say and putting it to practice. I also emailed her your additional questions. I asked if there are foods that actually cause inflammation, in addition to the ones that reduce it.
I like that you did the experiment yourself lol. I've had my moments when I felt the crash, but I never took any notes on what my diet was that day. I just stop to eat or add some electrolytes to my water. I'll ask him about it. My assumptions are that it will depend on the individual. Do you mind if I ask your age?
I am 47 years young.
Odd Man Out
06-16-2013, 20:56
It seems to me that the concerns of a thru hiker are very different from the concerns of most nutritional studies I see, which focus on weight loss, body building or short-term athletic performance. Also, there seems to be an obsession with supplements in one form or another, which is not practical for a thru hiker. It seems to me that the results of this kind of literature are not necessarily relevant to long distance hikers who have these considerations with regard to diet.
high calorie density
doesn't need refigeration
low cost
can be consumed every day for long periods of time
will support near continuous aerobic activity all day every day
can be prepared quickly and easily
uses commonly available ingredients
rocketsocks
06-16-2013, 21:31
I'll be following along on this thread as well, as I'm a broke bag of bones...of particular interest to me would be her take on hiker diet with regard to inflammation and eliminating it.
also after you bonk what's the quickest way to recover...salts, foods, drinks...the basic stuff we know but maybe she has a twist or spin, or opinion on the subject that hasn't be discussed, or a knew product out there...things are always changing, eh!
Mizirlou
06-17-2013, 08:34
AMS, gross. It gigged me to the point that the only good food was no food at all. Ryan, since you’ll be hiking that dizzying world on the PCT, I wonder if Tavis has something to say about high altitude nutrition, maybe in the context of the sea level Saints visiting the mile high Broncos. Of course the PCT goes way higher than that but still it’s a door opener to the peculiarities of diet/altitude.
(Forester Pass-Sierra Nevada?!? I may have to skip reading that section of your blog to avoid getting AMS-in-absentia.)
Tks for sharing your meal plan, Max Patch. Much appreciated.
I just wanted to let you know, I posted part one of that interview. http://ryangrayson.blogspot.com/2013/07/nutrition-for-thru-hikers-interview.html
Thank you all for your questions! It made the interview considerably better. You had many questions, I hadn't thought of. I'll let you know when I have part 2 ready to post.
I just wanted to let you know, I posted part one of that interview. http://ryangrayson.blogspot.com/2013/07/nutrition-for-thru-hikers-interview.html
Thank you all for your questions! It made the interview considerably better. You had many questions, I hadn't thought of. I'll let you know when I have part 2 ready to post.
I just read through the interview and enjoyed it. Going back to reread and take a few notes. Thanks for posting.
Read the interview carefully. In a nutshell - Great minds think alike! He's hired!
Thanks for following up on this Ryan. Really appreciated it.