Thoughts on entitled hikers (and a message to Ron Haven)

[Sunwolf]

Greetings all.

I will be thru-hiking nobo in 2014. This will be my first long-distance hike. When it comes to the AT and thru-hiking in general, I am a rank newbie. I recognize this and in some ways I celebrate it. For me, the magic (if any) is in front of me.

When I first developed the obsession I researched everything I could. I came upon story after story of selfless people in trail towns, trail angels, as well as grateful hikers who humbled themselves and were truly thankful for the support they received. Thankful enough to go out of their way to give something back to the trail and the people who make it what it is. Then I started reading about the entitled hikers. I read about the thefts, the abuse, the vandalism, the demands. I read about how people like Ron Haven can no longer take the snotty ingratitude and are slowly but surely pulling out from their interactions with the trail and the increasingly obnoxious hikers.

Part of me wants to encourage Ron and others to just stick with it. I'm sure there are plenty of good people who thru-hike and I'm sure those who ruin it for the rest are a tiny minority. I'm sure the vast majority of Ron's interactions with thru-hikers are still positive and I'm sure he's met with gratitude and thanks from most. But then I think about our society and realize the problem isn't the hikers. It's the people.

I'm a disabled veteran. I get money from the government every month. I hate it. It embarrasses me. That being said, I know that if I didn't, I'd probably be living on the streets. A few weeks back I was talking with my VA (Veteran's Administration, not Virginia :D) therapist. He was telling me about how frustrating his job can be. About how many vets come in and just sit around, not talking, not working on their issues. When he asks why they're there, they answer, "I have to show up to keep my disability."

These are the supposed "heroes" we're all taught to look up to because they served their country with "honor". How honorable is it to leech money from others without making an effort to solve the issues that are causing someone to require help (if said issues exist at all)? To me, these "heroes" are no better than thieves.

But this is what we live with. This is what our society is producing. And if our "heroes" can be no better than common thieves, what can we really expect from any segment of our society?

Let me switch gears for a second. I'm sure there are those out there along the trail who try to exploit hikers for every cent they can get. I'm sure there are those who count on the transient nature of the thru-hiker community to lie/cheat/steal from them as they pass through. We've all heard stories of stolen packs during trail days. But it seems to me a "which came first, chicken or egg?" scenario. It seems to me that if the AT is populated by decent, grateful, polite hikers, trail angels will come out of the proverbial woodwork to share the love. In turn, this will drive out the exploiters because they won't be able to compete. It also seems to me that if all the businesses along the trail treat hikers well, hikers will be grateful and polite. So where is all this falling apart?

Again, I'm certainly no expert on the AT, but from the research I've done this problem starts with the hikers. If the trail angels ruled the exploiters would get no business from the hikers. But if the hikers were polite the trail angels would rule. When you get rude hikers you get trail angels abandoning ship and bailing on the entire process, and rightly so. No one wants to give up their time and energy and money for those who don't appreciate it or worse those who steal and vandalize. Ron Haven is a perfect example of this trend. And when the Ron Havens of the trail jump ship this leaves a vacuum for the exploiters to move in and exploit the hikers because, well....we gotta eat. We gotta get around. And if there's no Ron Haven's to help us out with cheap shuttle rides and cheap rooms in which we can crash etc, all those things will be provided by people who will charge as much as they possibly can get away with. And rightly so; if I had to deal with rude, obnoxious people every day, I'd do my best to suck them dry too.

It seems to me that this needs to stop or soon enough there will be no more AT, at least not the AT I've read about and dreamed about hiking. But how?

I don't know. Maybe we hikers should all stop accepting this behavior. Maybe we should police out own. If a member of your group shows this behavior, boot them from the group. Call them out on these boards. Do whatever you legally can to make their hike miserable because, at the end of the day, that's exactly what they're doing to every hiker who comes after them. Don't leave it up to the Ron Havens of the trail to quit what they're doing in protest. They're busy enough helping us out and making our hikes enjoyable. Let's take responsibility for our own. At the end of the day, are there really any other solutions?

I can't force this to happen. We each need to make the decision to take responsibility for ourselves and those we contact while hiking. But for me, I'll just say that if you're an entitled turd, watch your back in '14 because if you're in my group and I see you abusing a trail angel or littering a shelter or whining at the cost of a 10 mile shuttle when said cost is less than the cost of gas, I will show no mercy.

To Ron Haven: I feel your pain and I don't blame you in the slightest for what you're doing (or no longer doing) in regards to the trail. Just know that there are hikers out here who are just as disgusted at the state of things as you are and are actively trying to improve things. And thank you dearly for what you've done in the past. Without you and those like you, the AT wouldn't be what it was (and I hope in some way still is).

[hikerboy57]

or you can just walk the trail, hitch into town when you need to resupply.

[Wise Old Owl]

Interesting take Sunwolf - good luck on your thru.

[Starchild]

My take on it is we the thru hikers in this case class of 2013 for you class of 2014 are the children. We are the ones that are cherished and adored by the larger family of completed thru hikers and angels. They desire to help. Their help for us is that which a adult would give to a child. So it is not only Ok to receive but it is not OK not to receive as it is a family and we are the ones in that position.

Or put another way giving is a easy lesson to learn for that puts you in the place of God but receiving is a much harder lesson as that places us in the place of a human. The AT thru is a perfect place to learn how to receive.

If we lose this system of giving and receiving then we get to the system of taking and the concepts of family disappear and the. AT will lose its meaning different people will hike and those who today would do the AT will find another place.


Peace

[Cookerhiker]

From reading your post, you strike me as someone who's read and researched a lot about the AT. I'd be interested in how your perspective changes once you've experienced what it's like to actually hike on the AT.

Thruhiking the AT is a challenge for anyone. With your disability, I expect the challenge will be doubled. Good luck to you.

[Gray Blazer]

I think Ron Haven will be all right whatever happens.

[frogpockets]

no better than thieves?your a jack leg.
this post is so damn negative.i dont know if i would want to hike with an out and out jerk like sun wolf.sun wolf,oh my god.
it is people that research and plan,and mull over ever minute detail that they read.
and when it dont work out just like it read they whine and bithch about it.
hold your comments till you have been there.then you may have an opinion on sum thing you know about.
how can you have an opinion on trail angels when you have never met one?

[RCBear]

I think this may be about the most bizarre poat I have read. I got halfway through, couldn't bear it any longer. But...just like a train wreck I had to come back, finish it and now even am giving iy the legitimacy of commenting on it.

Guess the jokes on me :) but I do wish you well in your attempt and will read your journal to see if perspective changes or not. These guys make it tough to look away :p

[hikerboy57]

Trail angels are not necessary to hike the a t

[max patch]

I really don't know how to respond to all that. I'll just start by saying they're aren't a bunch of town people waiting on hikers to pass through so that they steal from us.

[Lone Wolf]

or you can just walk the trail, hitch into town when you need to resupply.

it really is that simple. no "angels" or "magic" is needed

[Starchild]

or you can just walk the trail, hitch into town when you need to resupply.

it really is that simple. no "angels" or "magic" is needed

Is it? I never really experienced human kindness till the trail. To me angels and magic are needed for the hope of humanity.

[SwissGuy]

Greetings all.
I'm a disabled veteran. I get money from the government every month. I hate it. It embarrasses me. That being said, I know that if I didn't, I'd probably be living on the streets. A few weeks back I was talking with my VA (Veteran's Administration, not Virginia :D) therapist. He was telling me about how frustrating his job can be. About how many vets come in and just sit around, not talking, not working on their issues. When he asks why they're there, they answer, "I have to show up to keep my disability."

These are the supposed "heroes" we're all taught to look up to because they served their country with "honor". How honorable is it to leech money from others without making an effort to solve the issues that are causing someone to require help (if said issues exist at all)? To me, these "heroes" are no better than thieves.

But this is what we live with. This is what our society is producing. And if our "heroes" can be no better than common thieves, what can we really expect from any segment of our society?


I'm a disabled Veteran, 80% rated by the Army (not the VA), on the PDRL List, blue INDEF ID and the whole works, due to wounds received. You ashamed of your VA payout? Quit taking it, you know you can do that right? Since it is so hard for you to live with the shame of receiving those benefits, all you have to do is mail a properly formatted letter to the VA at

Department of Veterans Affairs
810 Vermont Avenue, NW
Washington, DC 20420

Requesting a cancellation of disbursement and boom, that whole moral quandary you have is lifted from your holy shoulders and you can hike forth free of those shameful shameful tax dollars. Your entire post reeks of elitism and if your nose was turned up any higher, it'd be upside down.

And all this from a guy without a single long distance hike.

[SwissGuy]

And another thing while my irish is up, if you're one missed VA check from the streets, what the holy hell are you doing planning a thru hike.


Maybe we should police our own. If a member of your group shows this behavior, boot them from the group. Call them out on these boards. Do whatever you legally can to make their hike miserable because, at the end of the day, that's exactly what they're doing to every hiker who comes after them. Don't leave it up to the Ron Havens of the trail to quit what they're doing in protest. They're busy enough helping us out and making our hikes enjoyable. Let's take responsibility for our own. At the end of the day, are there really any other solutions?

You ever heard of a thing called HYOY? No one is arguing that hikers need to be more respectful, people in general certainly do (outside the internet at least), but my one recommendation is you should likely hold your comments to yourself about what hikers should or should not do considering you've never even been on the freaking trail. If you've gotten all your info off of WB.net, you're in for a rude shock when you actually get on trail and realize that everyone else hasn't!

I don't normally get hot and bothered online, but something about your holier-than-thou sanctimonious attitude while totally lacking experience just gets my gall in all the best ways.

[hikerboy57]

there is a certain irony in someone having problems with entitlement issues, yet expects trail magic, trail angels, cheap shuttles,etc. to help make his hike easier. those expectations are what is known as entitlement issues.
angels and magic might be necessary for the hope of humanity, but not for hiking the trail. kindness exists wherever you want to spread it around.

[tawa]

The trail is what the trail is! Trust me when I tell you that the trail could care less about you--me--angels--magic--hope--peace--love --humanity etc. Grrrr I just want to go out and hike and not hear all this utopian garbage and just be left alone!
Awwwhhh I feel better now!

[John B]

If you don't mind my asking, but since you brought it up -- what kind of disability do you have that allows you to plan to spend months and months hiking 2,000 miles but yet leaves you unable to work???

[Theosus]

I would think that "trail angels" would be a welcome bonus, not something to rely on. I used to have to play substitute school crossing guard sometimes at work. After being out there for a week in January, one morning one of the parents brought me coffee. Im not a big fan of coffee, but it was warm (and she was HOT), so I drank it and thanked her. It was a nice bonus. But it would be wrong of me to plan my day around it (I don't need to bring coffee today because Lisa will bring some for me), or worse, be upset if she doesn't come (where's that damn Lisa with my Coffee?).
I havent hiked a single step on the trail yet. I keep planning it, but so far, diddly. But I look forward to sections.
I would say, if you have become disillusioned with the AT and its potentials, hike some OTHER trail. There are miles and miles of them around, especially in NC. Get out for a week or two on some of them and enjoy it.

[Kookork]

If you don't mind my asking, but since you brought it up -- what kind of disability do you have that allows you to plan to spend months and months hiking 2,000 miles but yet leaves you unable to work???

I have the same question. I think if one believes he can hike the AT , then there should be some jobs he can do.

Second: as cliche as HYOH seems to be( sometimes even been abused ) but it is the most important aspect of a hike IMO.

Sunwolf, I wish you a happy experience but your attitude is far from HYOH. Enjoy your hike and let others enjoy theirs. You are not responsible to correct other hikers behavior along your way( and you have no authority to do that).

Trail is not a perfect world and it has its own ups and downs but every single hiker has the same right as yours, not less or more. Just try to be a good hiker and obey the rules and you have done your job by setting an example. I do not like to confront any hiker who does not act up to my standards and I do not like to see others try to correct someone's wrong doing by confronting them. I will be there in 2014 to enjoy my hike and let others enjoy theirs. Nothing complicated .

[Biggie Master]

there is a certain irony in someone having problems with entitlement issues, yet expects trail magic, trail angels, cheap shuttles,etc. to help make his hike easier. those expectations are what is known as entitlement issues.
angels and magic might be necessary for the hope of humanity, but not for hiking the trail. kindness exists wherever you want to spread it around.

In other words... 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

[TIDE-HSV]

Ye gods! You've previously posted that you have a $400 tent and you'd like to use your hammock (more $$$) on the trail and you're subsisting on DAV assistance? It's really hard to take any word you write seriously. Plus your comments on damaged DAVs are really hard to take...

[Wise Old Owl]

In other words... 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

Your post is out place.. HB is one of the kindest people here, and you sir do not know him.

[Cookerhiker]

Your post is out place.. HB is one of the kindest people here, and you sir do not know him.

I didn't think he was attacking HB but restating HB's point using a Bible verse.

[hikerboy57]

I didn't think he was attacking HB but restating HB's point using a Bible verse.
thats the way i read it, but i appreciate the compliment woo

[tawa]

Is it? I never really experienced human kindness till the trail. To me angels and magic are needed for the hope of humanity.
No human kindness till the trail---lol--what does that say about NY? lol The trail could care less about hopes of humanity--as LW says dude its just walking no need to worry about utopia or saving humanity!

[hikerboy57]

Sorry but New Yorkers are some of the most generous people you will ever meet. Kindness and compassion exist wherever you want to spread them

[tawa]

Sorry but New Yorkers are some of the most generous people you will ever meet. Kindness and compassion exist wherever you want to spread them
Agree---just question someone that says they never experienced human kindness until they came to the trail. I see and find examples of human kindness every day if Im open to seeing and experiencing it.

[Lone Wolf]

i'll never understand why folks fawn all over other folks out walkin' on vacation. they're not in need of anything

[wornoutboots]

Is it? I never really experienced human kindness till the trail. To me angels and magic are needed for the hope of humanity.

Hiking the AT has nothing to do with Others helping hikers. It is adventurous spirits enjoying a long journey on their own 2 feet & enjoying the wilderness & small towns, swimming holes & anything else they choose to participate in along the way. The truth is if there were no Trail angels, it wouldn't matter. It may even make the hikers experience better knowing that every situation they have encountered, good or bad, They themselves worked through it & came out fine on the other side.

[max patch]

i'll never understand why folks fawn all over other folks out walkin' on vacation. they're not in need of anything

Exactly. "Trail feeds" for mostly white middle class people on vacation who have everything they need in their packs when they are millions of people who go to bed hungry every night is ridiculous.

I give money to these people: http://www.mustministries.org/

I'm never feeding a hiker.

[Silent Stroll]

I think this post started off bad...and stayed there.

[shakey_snake]

i dont have my trail title either but im hoping to earn one once i start my thru so people can track me in the registers. we will eventually become entitled hikers, op. :))))

[Sunwolf]

Hehe, looks like I hit a nerve or two. Well, ok.

First off, I'm sure Ron will be just fine.


no better than thieves?your a jack leg...how can you have an opinion on trail angels when you have never met one?
Thank you for the opinion. I guess everyone has one of those too. As for trail angels, who ever said I've never met one? Reading comprehension is important.


Your entire post reeks of elitism and if your nose was turned up any higher, it'd be upside down.
I'm sorry you feel that way. Perhaps I've hit a special nerve with you?


there is a certain irony in someone having problems with entitlement issues, yet expects trail magic, trail angels, cheap shuttles,etc. to help make his hike easier.
I could not possibly agree more. At first I was dismayed, thinking you were referring to me but then I realized I never said I expect anything, trail magic or otherwise, nor do I expect an easy hike in any way.


If you don't mind my asking, but since you brought it up -- what kind of disability do you have that allows you to plan to spend months and months hiking 2,000 miles but yet leaves you unable to work???
Not at all. PTSD resulting in major depressive disorder, social phobia, and panic attacks. I don't do well in cities, particularly in large groups. I find peace in nature.


I would say, if you have become disillusioned with the AT and its potentials, hike some OTHER trail.
That's actually not a bad idea but I have my heart set on the AT. To change plans now would make me feel like I've left something unfinished.


I think if one believes he can hike the AT , then there should be some jobs he can do.
There are jobs I can do. The problem is I never know when my PTSD will rear its ugly head. It's pretty bad when it does. Until I was diagnosed I had many jobs....I just couldn't keep them. Now I do volunteer work when I can and work on the issues I have every day of my life.


Enjoy your hike and let others enjoy theirs.
I most certainly will unless I see them doing something that will negatively affect my hike.


You are not responsible to correct other hikers behavior along your way( and you have no authority to do that).
Trail is not a perfect world and it has its own ups and downs but every single hiker has the same right as yours, not less or more. Just try to be a good hiker and obey the rules and you have done your job by setting an example. I do not like to confront any hiker who does not act up to my standards and I do not like to see others try to correct someone's wrong doing by confronting them.
With all respect, I disagree. If I see three guys kicking the crap out of someone else on the trail, do I turn the other cheek? Won't happen. If I see someone being raped in a tent, should I keep on hiking? Nope. If I see people stealing the food and water out of the back of a trail angel's truck while they're setting up, should I ignore it and let them HTOH? I have every responsibility and authority as a hiker, a citizen, hell as a human being, to speak up when I see someone doing something harmful. You may not like to confront others and that's certainly your choice but, as so many people reference, I will HMOH and that means that if I see someone doing something illegal or hurting someone else or vandalizing or stealing or whatever, I'm going to confront them. That's just who I am.


Hiking the AT has nothing to do with Others helping hikers. It is adventurous spirits enjoying a long journey on their own 2 feet & enjoying the wilderness & small towns, swimming holes & anything else they choose to participate in along the way. The truth is if there were no Trail angels, it wouldn't matter. It may even make the hikers experience better knowing that every situation they have encountered, good or bad, They themselves worked through it & came out fine on the other side.
If that's the case, why do so many more people hike the AT than the PCT? Everything I've read leads me to believe that hiking the AT is a social experience (this will be one of the more difficult aspects I'll face) and that this is one major reason why many people choose this trail over others. Not arguing here, I'm really curious. Is my info incorrect?

I'm really sorry some of you reacted to my post the way you did. I'm sorry I seem to have hit the nerves I have. I would have hoped that many of you could have responded politely (thanks to those who did) and maybe we could have had a nice discussion about all this. Not having done a long-distance hike does not make my opinion invalid, nor does it preclude me from posting said opinions on this board. I've always believed in the concept of believing in something until further evidence is acquired and being willing to change one's mind when said evidence comes to light. If I'm mistaken or misguided in anything I've said, please let me know. But let's all try to control ourselves and get along, shall we?

[Kookork]

Enjoy your hike and let others enjoy theirs.



I most certainly will unless I see them doing something that will negatively affect my hike.


You are not responsible to correct other hikers behavior along your way( and you have no authority to do that).



Trail is not a perfect world and it has its own ups and downs but every single hiker has the same right as yours, not less or more. Just try to be a good hiker and obey the rules and you have done your job by setting an example. I do not like to confront any hiker who does not act up to my standards and I do not like to see others try to correct someone's wrong doing by confronting them.



With all respect, I disagree. If I see three guys kicking the crap out of someone else on the trail, do I turn the other cheek? Won't happen. If I see someone being raped in a tent, should I keep on hiking? Nope. If I see people stealing the food and water out of the back of a trail angel's truck while they're setting up, should I ignore it and let them HTOH? I have every responsibility and authority as a hiker, a citizen, hell as a human being, to speak up when I see someone doing something harmful. You may not like to confront others and that's certainly your choice but, as so many people reference, I will HMOH and that means that if I see someone doing something illegal or hurting someone else or vandalizing or stealing or whatever, I'm going to confront them. That's just who I am.
==============================================


As a medical doctor who has been in a real war ,trust me if I say I know a thing or two about PTSD. It is not fun to be affected by PTSD but I think you will do better by having a job to help you tackle your fears and problems. I understand your situation and wish you full recovery.

About being indifferent if a hiker watches somebody being raped in a tent or steals from others, I will be beside you to confront the aggressor with all my power. It is our responsibility to do so but in your original post you were talking about confronting entitled hikers and not serious situations like you mentioned.

It seems you were trying to mention a good point of view but somehow failed to convey your true message. I wish you a pleasant experience on your journey. I guess you will find hiking AT much better than you think for the moment. The trail has lessons for us that we have no clue about their existence. Now(2013) we are just speculating about the trail life but in a year or so we would experience it, it can be vastly different.

[John B]

If you'd like a job where you're either by yourself on in very small groups nearly all the time, come to Kentucky and I can help you get a job working on a horse farm. You won't get rich doing it, but it's honest work in a beautiful setting. Send me a PM if interested.

[illabelle]

Sunwolf, I appreciated the tone of your response. I was dismayed by much of what I read on this thread. Thank you for turning down the heat and not reacting emotionally. The thing that seemed to generate the most heat was your references to veterans (or hikers) who take advantage of the system in a way that is dishonest and perhaps borders on fraud. At least that's how I understood your comments - evidently others understood them differently.

But the main thrust of your comments was simply that we can and should police our own community. Of course we already do, and to a greater extent than we do in our day-to-day lives. Few of us have the time and energy to invest in confronting people who break rules, shoplift, and run red lights. And few of us are brave enough (GZimmerman, anyone? ) to confront people who break windows, steal cars, and shoot at random strangers. We go about our business, minimizing our personal risks, and hoping that the authorities will catch up with the crooks.

On the Trail, though, the "authorities" are you and me. We teach one another by our examples and attitudes, and occasionally by sharing information with others or direct instruction of those less experienced - if they're open to it. Even here on WhiteBlaze, we are the authorities. Consider for example, at this moment the bottom of the WB homepage indicates "There are currently 224 users online (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/online.php). 61 members and 163 guests." That's 61 "authorities" and 163 people who are here to learn - from us. The courtesy and respect that are the norm on WB - for the most part! :p - are most definitely the norm on the Trail. :sun

We know that if others are trashing the shelter, it has a direct and negative impact on our own experience, and many of us would use the situation as an opportunity to teach by example, attitude, or direct instruction - IF they're open to it. One difficulty with policing ourselves is that some would take it too far. [I]Excuse me, but did you just throw that apple core into the bushes?!!!? So then we have to police the police! :)

[Cookerhiker]

...Everything I've read leads me to believe that hiking the AT is a social experience (this will be one of the more difficult aspects I'll face) and that this is one major reason why many people choose this trail over others. Not arguing here, I'm really curious. Is my info incorrect?...

Because of its popularity, its proximity to a large percentage of the population, and its ease of access, the AT sees more hikers than the PCT, CDT, and other trail in the East. And if you decide to thruhike NOBO, you're on the trail with hundreds of hikers initially such that even if you eschew organized hiker feeds, you're coming in contact with a lot of people. So social interaction at some level is inevitable.

But you can choose to minimize the "social trail" aspects for much of the trail. Why start NOBO from Springer? Why not start at Harpers Ferry in mid-March, hike south to Springer? You'll hike at least a month-and-a-half before encountering NOBO thrus. By the time you meet them, the NOBOs are strung out, shelters are less crowded, you can choose to tent by yourself in-between shelters. After reaching Springer, flip up to Katahdin and hike south to Harpers Ferry. As the weather warms, you'll meet more people but the thrus are still spread out.

[Starchild]

...Everything I've read leads me to believe that hiking the AT is a social experience (this will be one of the more difficult aspects I'll face) and that this is one major reason why many people choose this trail over others. Not arguing here, I'm really curious. Is my info incorrect?...

Because of its popularity, its proximity to a large percentage of the population, and its ease of access, the AT sees more hikers than the PCT, CDT, and other trail in the East. And if you decide to thruhike NOBO, you're on the trail with hundreds of hikers initially such that even if you eschew organized hiker feeds, you're coming in contact with a lot of people. So social interaction at some level is inevitable.

But you can choose to minimize the "social trail" aspects for much of the trail. Why start NOBO from Springer? Why not start at Harpers Ferry in mid-March, hike south to Springer? You'll hike at least a month-and-a-half before encountering NOBO thrus. By the time you meet them, the NOBOs are strung out, shelters are less crowded, you can choose to tent by yourself in-between shelters. After reaching Springer, flip up to Katahdin and hike south to Harpers Ferry. As the weather warms, you'll meet more people but the thrus are still spread out.

You can chose to do the hike Without much social interaction as we say HYOH. But it was the social aspect that had me do the AT over the CT or PCT and why I chose NoBo.

To be part of something bigger and not to do it on my own. That is what I sought after. I could hike almost anything on my own. I wanted More as hiking on my own was ultimately a empty experience for me.

Peace

[RCBear]

the OP may really be planning on hiking the trail as he says he is, however, when I read bizzare comments that reference how he would respond to someone being raped or 3 guys kicking the crap out of another hiker, I have to wonder whether this person is just a REALLY long winded troll. Who would cite those very extreme examples in response to someone that believes it best to not police others actions on the trail.

Trolling or not, he's certainly not someone I would want to share a shelter with. Which is only one of a number of reasons I never use em anyway.

pretty bizarre stuff imo. That said, the trail is for all to enjoy, so I wish him just that on his hike next year, however far it takes him.

[moytoy]

Your post is out place.. HB is one of the kindest people here, and you sir do not know him.
I agree....That is verse 5 not a high 5. BM does too much talkin and not enough walkin IMO.

[Drybones]

Didn't bother to read the post, too long for me, but I am reading the replies...at least the short ones.

"The more the words the less the meaning".

[Rasty]

Your post is out place.. HB is one of the kindest people here, and you sir do not know him.
I agree....That is verse 5 not a high 5. BM does too much talkin and not enough walkin IMO.

We are supposed to be walking? I knew I was doing it all wrong.

[Biggie Master]

I didn't think he was attacking HB but restating HB's point using a Bible verse.

That's correct... Just agreeing with HB and pointing out that the OP was very quick to see the "issues" with disabled veterans "taking advantage" of the system, instead of concerning himself with his own situation first.

i don't know anyone on WB well enough to pass judgment (it's not my place), but to add to WOO's support of HB -
i agree that from all his posts, he's one of the good guys. As he says, it's all good.

[hikerboy57]

That's correct... Just agreeing with HB and pointing out that the OP was very quick to see the "issues" with disabled veterans "taking advantage" of the system, instead of concerning himself with his own situation first.

i don't know anyone on WB well enough to pass judgment (it's not my place), but to add to WOO's support of HB -
i agree that from all his posts, he's one of the good guys. As he says, it's all good.
thank you,bm

[MDSection12]

That's correct... Just agreeing with HB and pointing out that the OP was very quick to see the "issues" with disabled veterans "taking advantage" of the system, instead of concerning himself with his own situation first.

i don't know anyone on WB well enough to pass judgment (it's not my place), but to add to WOO's support of HB -
i agree that from all his posts, he's one of the good guys. As he says, it's all good.
He doesn't say 'it's all good.' He says 'its all good.' I still can't figure out what 'it' is and why it has an 'all good.' :p

[hikerboy57]

He doesn't say 'it's all good.' He says 'its all good.' I still can't figure out what 'it' is and why it has an 'all good.' :p
my apostrophe key sticks

[rocketsocks]

It's time for the Benny hill show

[Wise Old Owl]

uhhh dated, how about a half hour of Ron White.

[rocketsocks]

uhhh dated, how about a half hour of Ron White.
Why not!, can't be any worse than this drifting thread.

[Wise Old Owl]

Yea and I also realize I may have been harsh on BiggieMaster, my apologies to everyone..

[Biggie Master]

Yea and I also realize I may have been harsh on BiggieMaster, my apologies to everyone..

Thanks, but no apology is necessary. No harm, no foul... I appreciate you sticking up for HB for the perceived verbal assault. I should have been clearer with the intent/meaning of my post since it included a quote.

[rocketsocks]

Yea and I also realize I may have been harsh on BiggieMaster, my apologies to everyone..
No biggie, your forgiven

[hikerboy57]

its all good.

[Rasty]

its all good.

It's ...........:D

[Drybones]

If you don't mind my asking, but since you brought it up -- what kind of disability do you have that allows you to plan to spend months and months hiking 2,000 miles but yet leaves you unable to work???

I'd like to hear an answer to this one also.

[Cookerhiker]

I'd like to hear an answer to this one also.

See Post # 34

[Drybones]

See Post # 34

Thanks!......................

[keepinitsimple]

Will one of the monitors plase shut this pathetic discussion down now??????? This is an embarassment to WB and hikers everywhere, from start to finish and all the bs in between

[hikerboy57]

Will one of the monitors plase shut this pathetic discussion down now??????? This is an embarassment to WB and hikers everywhere, from start to finish and all the bs in between
thank you for that valuable contribution to the discussion.if you dont like this discussion, then restrict yourself to the articles on the home page.

[illabelle]

Will one of the monitors plase shut this pathetic discussion down now??????? This is an embarassment to WB and hikers everywhere, from start to finish and all the bs in between

I agree. "GFY" crossed a line.

[litefoot2000]

This is an embarassment to WB and hikers everywhere, from start to finish and all the bs in between

An embarrassment to WB???? An embarrassment to WB???

[hikerboy57]

I agree. "GFY" crossed a line.
some people just want to go find themselves

[Rasty]

This is an embarassment to WB and hikers everywhere, from start to finish and all the bs in between

An embarrassment to WB???? An embarrassment to WB???

Nope just a normal day a Camp Crusty!

[hikerboy57]

http://www.wistv.com/story/13481099/veteran-suicide-rate-outpaces-war-casualties

[hikerboy57]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/01/veteran-suicide-rate_n_2599019.html

[Gray Blazer]

Didn't bother to read the post, too long for me, but I am reading the replies...at least the short ones.

"The more the words the less the meaning".

+1






​!@#$%^&*())(*&

[Jack Tarlin]

Without remotely attempting to minimize the situation, which is indeed very serious, it should be pointed out that the suicide rate for returning or recent veterans is nowhere remotely close to "ten times" the civilian rate, as someone recently stated. No discussion is well-served by repeating false information, folks, and this is not the first time I've seen this outrageous figure bandied about. That being said, I also agree that this thread has served its purpose, if, in fact, it ever had one.

[Old Hiker]

the suicide rate for returning vets is 10 times highr than the civilian population, mostly fro ptsd, very very real

"Information on the Department of Defense website shows the military suicide rate has increased steadily over the past five years, exceeding the national average of 11.1 suicides per 100,000 people. The military averaged 12.5 suicides per 100,000 people."

Not arguing there isn't a problem - just that the stats you claim seem to be inflated. I also found it interesting that in two articles, binging suicide rates of vets vs. non-vets, one claimed younger vets were committing suicide at a higher rate, while another article stated that it was the older vets doing so.

[hikerboy57]

"Information on the Department of Defense website shows the military suicide rate has increased steadily over the past five years, exceeding the national average of 11.1 suicides per 100,000 people. The military averaged 12.5 suicides per 100,000 people."

Not arguing there isn't a problem - just that the stats you claim seem to be inflated. I also found it interesting that in two articles, binging suicide rates of vets vs. non-vets, one claimed younger vets were committing suicide at a higher rate, while another article stated that it was the older vets doing so.
statistics can always be skewed to get the result you'd like to prove. just wanted to show ptsd as a very real disorder many of our returning heroes have faced.

[Old Hiker]

statistics can always be skewed to get the result you'd like to prove. just wanted to show ptsd as a very real disorder many of our returning heroes have faced.

Agreed. ....

[Jack Tarlin]

This has probably been pointed out by others by now (there's a time delay involved in getting my posts printed), but it needs to be strongly re-iterated that some recent comments about the suicide rate amongst veterans have been wildly overstated, especially as regards recent veterans or recently returned veterans. Repeating these false and greatly exaggerated statistics doesn't help the discussion, and in fact helps give credence to anti-military types with their own agenda, who wish to foster and disseminate the viewpoint that involvement with the military inherently damages people, leading people to the same conclusions that Hollywood and the mainstream media reached after Vietnam, i.e., veterans were all ticking-bomb Rambo types, prone to dangerous and unstable behavior. This mindset led to the stigmatization of thousands of people in the years following the Vietnam years. This sentiment was wrong then and it's wrong now. That there are vets who need and should get help with personal issues and struggles is not being questioned, but the repeated use of wildly false and over-inflated statistics does not help the argument. Three quick facts: The suicide rate is rising amongst veterans and we need to pay attention to this. That being said, the present suicide rate amongst veterans and civilians is around the same. The greatest increase amongst military suicides is amongst vets OVER 50, i.e. we're not talking about recently returned veterans. But when someone makes the bald statement that military suicides amongst recently returned veterans exceeds the civilian rate by a ten to one ratio, sorry, falsehoods like this that only hurt veterans instead if helping them.....these comments need to be addressed, disputed, and corrected. They are simply untrue and have the capacity to do a great deal of harm.

[Jack Tarlin]

Hikerboy; Regarding your post#80: Nobody is "skewing" statistics here. Your previous comment about civilian suicides being ten times greater than military ones was, plain and simply, untrue. If anyone is "skewing" statistics here,or playing fast and loose with freely available facts, with all due respect, that person is you. Please check your figures and facts and get back to us, but your repeated assertions defending a false (and hurtful) argument do you no credit. I repeat: That this is a vitally important issue that needs to be addressed is beyond dispute, but stating, repeating, and defending false information serves nobody.

[rocketsocks]

Agreed. ....
A very dear friend of mine shot himself about 8 years ago....he was a Vietnam Veteran, very sad, he never could shake the war....even 40 years later. Rest in piece Goergie (aka lock & load George)

[Mags]

Time to close the thread. When it goes from entitled hikers to veterans committing suicide, the thread has outlasted its purpose.