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ekeverette
06-25-2013, 19:33
my 2012 hike was good... did 700 miles, but my main concern was to get to town to drink...... drinking and depression drove me off the trail... the only way I did big miles, was to get to town to drink.... I wish I could be relaxed and content.... but I had to be in a hurry to get nowhere..... any other drunks out there that could slow down and enjoy themselves without consumed with alcohol????

rocketsocks
06-25-2013, 20:00
my 2012 hike was good... did 700 miles, but my main concern was to get to town to drink...... drinking and depression drove me off the trail... the only way I did big miles, was to get to town to drink.... I wish I could be relaxed and content.... but I had to be in a hurry to get nowhere..... any other drunks out there that could slow down and enjoy themselves without consumed with alcohol????Ekeverette, I hear ya....Have you had enough? I've ruined many a fishin trips when booze took over....problem was it took over the trip long before the trip even started (in my mind). There is a easier way to live...don't drink and go to meetings or find someone down there who doesn't drink and pal around with them for a while, fake it till ya make it, one day at a time....all these little saying have meaning to me, I sure hope you can find meaning in them too. PM me anytime there's a fine life waiting for you...ya just gotta go out a take it, no one can get it for you.

MDSection12
06-25-2013, 20:11
Ya man, that doesn't sound like a trail-specific problem to me. Good luck to you, I hope you can find something that works for you. :)

Deer Hunter
06-25-2013, 20:14
+1 to the above posts.

4Bears
06-25-2013, 23:04
the only way is not to do it, become friends with "Bill W.", get a sponsor, say good bye to your old drinking buddies. The toughest step is the first one, the one you have do alone. I am sure there are plenty of meeting places along the trail, when you need one.

Drybones
06-25-2013, 23:39
I drink on a daily basis but have no problem going days, weeks, months or years (8 is my record) without it, I can relate to the situation though. I've had every bad habit know to man but the one I just could not kick was Copenhagen snuff, tried to quit after every dip, harder I tried to quit the more adicted I got. Not trying to get religious on you here, just going to state the facts as they happened. I was reading the Bible one day in the den and read the verse that says "ask and it will be given", I'd read that 100's of times before but something happened that time that I can't explain, I understood it in a way I had never before, I knew if I asked it would be granted, I closed the Bible and started to ask but before I could start this voice from within said "Sam, do you really want to quit", figured there was no point in lying so I thought before I answered and said no, I don't want to quit. I then knew what to ask for, I asked for the desire to quit....never took another dip and had zero withdrawal.

That's good advice from RS gave about spending time around those that dont drink...we tend to rub off on one another, for better or worse.

Sailor (The other one)
06-26-2013, 11:47
Ekeverette, you are a long way from alone my friend.
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?47221-12-Steps&highlight=sober
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?93011-Sober-Hike-info&highlight=sober

Dogwood
06-26-2013, 12:57
Agreed, not really a hiking issue. This seems like a bigger issue for you than can be reasonably addressed here.

I will tell you 12 Steps Programs DO NOT work for everyone. IF YOU CAN FINALLY get a straight answer from the 12 step programmers you'll be astonished at the dismally low rate at which 12 steppers stay sober in the long term but it's what most people know about and what employers, courts, rehabs, etc expound. If you really want to avoid ALL the crap that can quickly pile up when not sober I STRONGLY URGE YOU to check out Rational Recovery by Jack Trimpey as an alternative to 12 step programs. Rational Recovery takes a raidical about face logical non religious approach to addictions. RR is a tool that has helped many change their lives! If the 12 step program is working for you continue with it. It also has helped people.

Sailor (The other one)
06-26-2013, 14:42
I've been clean and sober 31 years, because of 12 Step programs. I was also a therapist for 12 years. Dogwood is right about the miserable success rate of 12 step programs. In fact, while I was counseling, the estimated success rate for all addicts, including those exposed to some sort of recovery program, was said to be 3 percent.

In my experience, the main reason for this is simple - no program works. If you are like many of the people I met in counseling you will go to a program, be it AA or Rational Recovery or some other, and expect it to do something for you and it will not. They do not work, you have to work them. A recovery program is like a car: you can sit in the driver's seat and wait for something to happen or you can turn the key and operate the controls and pay attention to your driving.

I have experience with friends and clients in 12 step programs, RR, other "non-religious" programs and several faith-based programs, some of which also use the 12 steps. Those I have known who succeed are those who do the work. Those who don't, don't.

AA, the original 12 step program, has been the longest lasting, most successful recovery program in the history of the species. With no professionals, it has spread to over 100 countries. And over 100 other 12 Step groups for all kinds of problems have been created. But they are not for everyone and do not claim to be. If you think something else might do it for you, by all means, try it. In AA people say try this for 90 days and if things have not improved, try something else. So whatever you try, give it an honest go. And if one doesn't work, try another.

One thing, there are no membership requirements in 12 Step programs. I've known many athiests in them. If someone wanted to, they could attend RR, 12 step groups and anything else they wanted at the same time.

Best of luck.

rocketsocks
06-26-2013, 14:48
I've been clean and sober 31 years, because of 12 Step programs. I was also a therapist for 12 years. Dogwood is right about the miserable success rate of 12 step programs. In fact, while I was counseling, the estimated success rate for all addicts, including those exposed to some sort of recovery program, was said to be 3 percent.

In my experience, the main reason for this is simple - no program works. If you are like many of the people I met in counseling you will go to a program, be it AA or Rational Recovery or some other, and expect it to do something for you and it will not. They do not work, you have to work them. A recovery program is like a car: you can sit in the driver's seat and wait for something to happen or you can turn the key and operate the controls and pay attention to your driving.

I have experience with friends and clients in 12 step programs, RR, other "non-religious" programs and several faith-based programs, some of which also use the 12 steps. Those I have known who succeed are those who do the work. Those who don't, don't.

AA, the original 12 step program, has been the longest lasting, most successful recovery program in the history of the species. With no professionals, it has spread to over 100 countries. And over 100 other 12 Step groups for all kinds of problems have been created. But they are not for everyone and do not claim to be. If you think something else might do it for you, by all means, try it. In AA people say try this for 90 days and if things have not improved, try something else. So whatever you try, give it an honest go. And if one doesn't work, try another.

One thing, there are no membership requirements in 12 Step programs. I've known many athiests in them. If someone wanted to, they could attend RR, 12 step groups and anything else they wanted at the same time.

Best of luck.+1 it works, if you work it...so work it, your worth it!

fins1838
06-26-2013, 14:54
I drink on a daily basis but have no problem going days, weeks, months or years (8 is my record) without it, I can relate to the situation though. I've had every bad habit know to man but the one I just could not kick was Copenhagen snuff, tried to quit after every dip, harder I tried to quit the more adicted I got. Not trying to get religious on you here, just going to state the facts as they happened. I was reading the Bible one day in the den and read the verse that says "ask and it will be given", I'd read that 100's of times before but something happened that time that I can't explain, I understood it in a way I had never before, I knew if I asked it would be granted, I closed the Bible and started to ask but before I could start this voice from within said "Sam, do you really want to quit", figured there was no point in lying so I thought before I answered and said no, I don't want to quit. I then knew what to ask for, I asked for the desire to quit....never took another dip and had zero withdrawal.

That's good advice from RS gave about spending time around those that dont drink...we tend to rub off on one another, for better or worse.
Thanks. For me its Skoal. Hate the stuff but go nuts without it. Tounge hurts. Teeth hurt. Headaches. Nauseas. Going to try your way.

RCBear
06-26-2013, 15:49
the recovery rate is low for any program, that said, for those that do go to regular meetings and stay in regular touch with their sponsor, the successful numbers are higher. The problem is that you aren't completely "successful" until you go to your grave haven't had picked up since putting down.

I define success as I didn't take a drink today. I can always drink tomorrow if i choose, but today is the day that i can't drink. Like they say, if you hang around the barber shop long enough, you WILL get a haircut. like it or not, you really MUST cut ties with the old drinking buddies. they don't want to see you sober, so there is very little chance of remaining so if you don't.

Most importantly, you won't be ready, until you are ready. And if your concern is being able to stay sober on the trail (as opposed to EVERYWHERE) you just aren't ready yet.

I wish you success when you are, because for us; ONE DRINK IS TOO MANY, AND A THOUSAND AREN'T ENOUGH.

Deer Hunter
06-26-2013, 16:01
I drink on a daily basis but have no problem going days, weeks, months or years (8 is my record) without it, I can relate to the situation though. I've had every bad habit know to man but the one I just could not kick was Copenhagen snuff, tried to quit after every dip, harder I tried to quit the more adicted I got. Not trying to get religious on you here, just going to state the facts as they happened. I was reading the Bible one day in the den and read the verse that says "ask and it will be given", I'd read that 100's of times before but something happened that time that I can't explain, I understood it in a way I had never before, I knew if I asked it would be granted, I closed the Bible and started to ask but before I could start this voice from within said "Sam, do you really want to quit", figured there was no point in lying so I thought before I answered and said no, I don't want to quit. I then knew what to ask for, I asked for the desire to quit....never took another dip and had zero withdrawal.

That's good advice from RS gave about spending time around those that dont drink...we tend to rub off on one another, for better or worse.

Very good advice in my opinion. I finally made up my mind that I was going to have to stop hanging around some friends I that I have had for years. Still speak to them and such but I do not spend a lot of time around them. It wasn't easy at first but I eventually made friends that didn't drink or try to get me to drink.

Drybones
06-26-2013, 16:05
Thanks. For me its Skoal. Hate the stuff but go nuts without it. Tounge hurts. Teeth hurt. Headaches. Nauseas. Going to try your way.

I tried the skoal thinking if I could get on something less potent I might could quit, didn't work, a dip of skoal was just like after a meal, made me want some Copenhagen. I hope it works as well for you as it it did me.

rocketsocks
06-26-2013, 16:12
That's good advice from RS gave about spending time around those that dont drink...we tend to rub off on one another, for better or worse.


Very good advice in my opinion. I finally made up my mind that I was going to have to stop hanging around some friends I that I have had for years. Still speak to them and such but I do not spend a lot of time around them. It wasn't easy at first but I eventually made friends that didn't drink or try to get me to drink.

Same here, now those friends come around but they all know that drinkin is just not part of my life anymore...and they don't push it...but more importantly...I don't feel pushed anymore...and if they do get outta hand, I just call em drunks and we all laugh.

When you finnally "get it" it's not something you want to let go of, life is so much easier without being drunk all the time...you'll have money in your pocket, your health will improve, less hassles in general with life's crap. And the fog clears...you'll be making decisions that used to baffle you...it just comes.

rocketsocks
06-26-2013, 16:18
ya know the OP question is how to stay sober on the trail...good question.

I guess if you could find a group that doesn't drink....man that would be a great start..2,000 miles of meetings (so to speak) 24-7 on a thru-hike.

stay in the woods when others go to town for a night of hard partying.

learn to do something with your hands, journal, paint, crochete a camp pillow cover...anything to keep busy.

gizzy bear
06-26-2013, 16:23
the recovery rate is low for any program, that said, for those that do go to regular meetings and stay in regular touch with their sponsor, the successful numbers are higher. The problem is that you aren't completely "successful" until you go to your grave haven't had picked up since putting down.

I define success as I didn't take a drink today. I can always drink tomorrow if i choose, but today is the day that i can't drink. Like they say, if you hang around the barber shop long enough, you WILL get a haircut. like it or not, you really MUST cut ties with the old drinking buddies. they don't want to see you sober, so there is very little chance of remaining so if you don't.

Most importantly, you won't be ready, until you are ready. And if your concern is being able to stay sober on the trail (as opposed to EVERYWHERE) you just aren't ready yet.

I wish you success when you are, because for us; ONE DRINK IS TOO MANY, AND A THOUSAND AREN'T ENOUGH.

+ 1 well said babe...err...i mean RCBear :p

yellowsirocco
06-26-2013, 16:26
If you are Christian or Jewish you might look at the Nazarite Vow. No booze, no haircuts, no shaving, no funerals to sum it up. It is a vow you make with God so for me it works. I did it during Lent this past spring. I did it because I had to, I was a drunk. I drink again now, but much less. The 46 days giving it up reset me so I could live normally without it.

Lone Wolf
06-26-2013, 18:26
my 2012 hike was good... did 700 miles, but my main concern was to get to town to drink...... drinking and depression drove me off the trail... the only way I did big miles, was to get to town to drink.... I wish I could be relaxed and content.... but I had to be in a hurry to get nowhere..... any other drunks out there that could slow down and enjoy themselves without consumed with alcohol????
drink alcohol or not. simple choice

RCBear
06-26-2013, 18:36
my 2012 hike was good... did 700 miles, but my main concern was to get to town to drink...... drinking and depression drove me off the trail... the only way I did big miles, was to get to town to drink.... I wish I could be relaxed and content.... but I had to be in a hurry to get nowhere..... any other drunks out there that could slow down and enjoy themselves without consumed with alcohol????
drink alcohol or not. simple choice

Thats basically it. If you cant drink, you cant drink. Life goes on.

hikerboy57
06-26-2013, 18:41
many times if you lose the drink, youll also lose the depression. the more you stay on the trail and away from towns, the more you'll be hiking with non drinkers, you'll notice a different attitude, different priorities in their journey.instead of looking forward to the next party, you'll begin to see that life is the party.
when i quit drinking, i found out that most of my drinking buddies werent my buddies at all.

Zippy Morocco
06-26-2013, 18:56
I am thru-hiking this year and going to meetings along the way. In fact I will be going to one tonight in Lincoln, NH. You know I bet the percentage of people who complete a thru hike and those who stay sober in any program are close to the same. The second may be a little lower, I'm not sure.

Drybones
06-26-2013, 19:41
drink alcohol or not. simple choice

Not neccessarily...some doors people open they cant shut, for some it's booze, for some it something else.

Lone Wolf
06-26-2013, 19:46
Not neccessarily...some doors people open they cant shut, for some it's booze, for some it something else.

it's a choice. nobody is forcing a bottle to one's mouth. most folks are extremely weak is all

T-Rx
06-26-2013, 20:09
many times if you lose the drink, youll also lose the depression. the more you stay on the trail and away from towns, the more you'll be hiking with non drinkers, you'll notice a different attitude, different priorities in their journey.instead of looking forward to the next party, you'll begin to see that life is the party.
when i quit drinking, i found out that most of my drinking buddies werent my buddies at all.

Well said hikerboy57!

HikerMom58
06-26-2013, 20:17
it's a choice. nobody is forcing a bottle to one's mouth. most folks are extremely weak is all

LW... there is a sliver of truth to everything you say... :D And to LW's post I will add----

It's an addiction and it's real..... Sometimes this is the reason behind the struggle....

Addiction is a chronic brain disorder and not simply a behavior problem involving alcohol, drugs, gambling or sex, experts contend in a new definition of addiction, one that is not solely related to problematic substance abuse.

"At its core, addiction isn't just a social problem or a moral problem or a criminal problem. It's a brain problem whose behaviors manifest in all these other areas," said Dr. Michael Miller, past president of ASAM who oversaw the development of the new definition. "Many behaviors driven by addiction (http://www.myhealthnewsdaily.com/obesity-alcoholism-linked-environment-blamed-101230-0963/) are real problems and sometimes criminal acts. But the disease is about brains, not drugs. It's about underlying neurology, not outward actions."

A lot of really good support... you're not alone! It's been proven that with support & the right kind of help we can beat any addiction. I love Drybones story, he shared, about asking for the desire to be taken from him. Powerful stuff! :)

Chair-man
06-26-2013, 20:46
did 700 miles, but my main concern was to get to town to drink...... drinking and depression drove me off the trail...

Some people think about pizza, ice cream, a shower, a bed with air conditioning, a beer too. I haven't thru hiked but I've been reading a lot of journals, a lot of journals.
One hiker mentioned how towns can be like magnets that just hold you there. The temptation to take a 2nd zero can be very strong. He came to realize that if he was going to complete his thru he needed to get out of town as soon a possible.
He made it. Then the hail came (http://www.skwc.com/exile/Hail-nf.html).

hikerboy57
06-26-2013, 20:51
it's a choice. nobody is forcing a bottle to one's mouth. most folks are extremely weak is all

unfortunately, no its beyond choice for some. ive known people that literally drank themselves to death. even thoough they were dying, could not quit.when i quit drinking, outside of a few early relapses, i never had the desire to feel drunk again.actually the beers i had with you were the first id had in years.i dont have a problem anymore, i just dont like the way alcohol makes me feel anymore. but for some its a lifelong battle, a literal battle to stay sober.

prain4u
06-26-2013, 21:39
it's a choice. nobody is forcing a bottle to one's mouth. most folks are extremely weak is all

If only it were that simple. If only it were a simple matter of weakness or strength--but for many people it is not that simple. To tell the true addict or true alcohol that willpower alone can fix the issue is like saying that sheer willpower can prevent a heart attack from occurring or that willpower can keep a diabetic from needing insulin. It is isn't that simple.

Addiction and substance dependence are complex issues with no single cause. For as many alcoholics, there is a genetic component which predisposes them to alcoholism. There is a great deal of evidence that, for many alcoholics, their bodies even metabolize and process alcohol differently than non-alcoholics. There are environmental factors which play a role--and yes (to a lesser degree) even willpower can play a role in some cases. These are just a few of the many factors which impact addiction and dependence.

Many people have given good advice regarding staying sober on the trail: Stay out of town as much as possible. Go to meetings when you can. Bring recovery literature with you and read it. Hike with a non-drinking group of hikers. Better yet, hike with recovering people.

Dogwood
06-26-2013, 22:59
SO MUCH has been said SO LOUDLY for SO LONG we can start to believe it's true. We stop questioning where we get beliefs and how we think. We stop verifying and just casually and complacently accept things to be true.

Spend some quality time researching the medical(AMA, WHO, WHJ, etc) and psychatric(APA) journals in regards to addictions and you just might find that some research and some addiction recoverED programs DO NOT support the disease model of addiction espoused by 12 step programs nor some(much?) of the pseudo science espoused by it.


Get help somewhere anywhere if that's what you feel you must do.

hikerboy57
06-26-2013, 23:17
any program that helps is good.
none of em work well until the person decides he wants to stop drinking.

mfleming
06-27-2013, 00:24
LW...

Unfortunately it's not a one size fits all world that we live in.

Lone Wolf
06-27-2013, 06:05
LW...

Unfortunately it's not a one size fits all world that we live in.

it's all about choices

JAK
06-27-2013, 07:09
Maybe some folks need a 12 step group to hike with, rather than relying on 12 step meetings along the way. Another option might be finding a trail that might have fewer temptations or triggers along the way. I wish you well. I believe nature is on your side though. Hiking helps. You just gotta watch out for some obstacles along the way.

Sampson
06-27-2013, 08:08
LW...

Unfortunately it's not a one size fits all world that we live in.

It is about the choices we make. Yeah, people can alter their brain chemistry after abusing drugs orvqlcoh

Sampson
06-27-2013, 08:20
It is about the choices we make. Yeah, people can alter their brain chemistry after abusing drugs orvqlcoh or alcohol for an extended period of time. Obviously the best way to avoid that scenario is not to let it get that far. For those that are already there, employing any method that works for them is the way to go. In order to do this though, the addict needs to recognize their problem first. Most people are too proud to come to that realization until their physical health starts to deteriorate. Then they're forced to make a change, they're not choosing to do so, and results can be short lived once they start to feel better. The hardest part is openly admitting your problem to yourself and to those that love you. Once you get to that point, you can choose to change.

Sorry for the double post. Fat thumbs and a small iPhone keyboard.

HikerMom58
06-27-2013, 08:21
it's all about choices

More truth... AND one of the choices you have when you feel somethin ain't right and/or you are feeling out of control is- reaching out for help. The other choices are to ignore/continue to fight a losing battle or embrace it/give up. The OP is making a good choice! :D

MDSection12
06-27-2013, 08:25
it's all about choices

You're exactly right, but the motivations behind the choices we make are sometimes more important when trying to make a change. It's not always as simple as making the right choice; sometimes you have to make the right choice for the right reason in order for the change to be lasting.

q-tip
06-27-2013, 08:40
In 2010 I walked form Springer to Harpers Ferry. I am sober 28 years and only 10 meetings in that time. No problem. You might consider getting some help. Like they say, "If you think you have a problem with alcohol, you do...." The benefits of a sober life cannot be calculated. Feel free to PM me anytime.

gizzy bear
06-27-2013, 10:23
addiction is a "dependence"... one feels like he or she cannot live without a certain substance... and while i agree that in some cases it is a "choice" and with will power and the help of loved ones and programs, those are the success stories... unfortunately, there are some lost souls out there, that no matter how hard they try and how much those that love them try to help... their bodies have been consumed by their dependence...it is a sad life...for the addict...and even sadder for the ones that love them....

tawa
06-27-2013, 10:55
If you are really interested in the TRUTH about alcoholism I would highly suggest you do a little research and google--Dr. William D Silkworth. Read about his life long body of work in treating alcoholism. Read Silkworths--The Doctors Opinion. WB has more than a few individuals who have the attitude of --Don't confuse me with the facts--I've already made up my mind! lol When I want expert advice on the trail--gear-conditioning-nutrition etc I go to the experts and see what they can teach me based on their experience and body of work. Thus when I want to learn about alcoholism I go to someone like this man not someone with an opinion walking a trail!

RCBear
06-27-2013, 11:48
If you are really interested in the TRUTH about alcoholism I would highly suggest you do a little research and google--Dr. William D Silkworth. Read about his life long body of work in treating alcoholism. Read Silkworths--The Doctors Opinion. WB has more than a few individuals who have the attitude of --Don't confuse me with the facts--I've already made up my mind! lol When I want expert advice on the trail--gear-conditioning-nutrition etc I go to the experts and see what they can teach me based on their experience and body of work. Thus when I want to learn about alcoholism I go to someone like this man not someone with an opinion walking a trail!

I think this post is probably a good stopping point, especially since noone, including myself, seems to have a handle on what the original poster is asking for. It seems he just wants to know how to manage his drinking and hiking together. If that's the case, then talking about the benefits of a 12 step program is really mute. An alcoholic that is serious about their recovery doesn't ponder ways that they can drink safely. It can't be done and only an alcoholic really knows this.

RED-DOG
06-27-2013, 12:07
Use the trail as a means of quiting, like your own 12 step program, when you want to drink don't go to town, Last year on my 2012 thru I met this 6 guys and thats basically what they did they brought the 12 step program to the trail, So GOOD LUCK and remember the AT is what you want it to be.

finish9
06-27-2013, 12:12
Hmmm. I know I will get thrashed for my thoughts but here goes. Alcohol for some is a major problem, life or death. For the last 39 years I have drank from light to heavy. No I didn't have a problem everyone else around me just did. For the past few years in a normal day I would average 1.5 liters of wine. Some days a lot more, starting at noon until I passed out. At the end of the day I had to have some type of alcohol, if I traveled I was always scoping out where I would get my fix, even buying something mid day to ensure I would have a drink in the evening. My urges/desires where very strong. Now I might have a drink once a week or not, if I have a very physical day and bone tired then I might have a little wine. The strong desire is completely gone, vanished. What changed? Now the barbs come out, so be it. For me, me only, I did not believe it was mental but something else. I treated my desire for a drink as a symptom of an imbalance of a gut parasite/bacteria/?. I have found that taking a garlic supplement from Costco has eliminate the desire for alcohol. Yes I agree it sounds very stupid, but it worked for me. A placebo maybe, I am not arguing with the results.

RCBear
06-27-2013, 12:18
Hmmm. I know I will get thrashed for my thoughts but here goes. Alcohol for some is a major problem, life or death. For the last 39 years I have drank from light to heavy. No I didn't have a problem everyone else around me just did. For the past few years in a normal day I would average 1.5 liters of wine. Some days a lot more, starting at noon until I passed out. At the end of the day I had to have some type of alcohol, if I traveled I was always scoping out where I would get my fix, even buying something mid day to ensure I would have a drink in the evening. My urges/desires where very strong. Now I might have a drink once a week or not, if I have a very physical day and bone tired then I might have a little wine. The strong desire is completely gone, vanished. What changed? Now the barbs come out, so be it. For me, me only, I did not believe it was mental but something else. I treated my desire for a drink as a symptom of an imbalance of a gut parasite/bacteria/?. I have found that taking a garlic supplement from Costco has eliminate the desire for alcohol. Yes I agree it sounds very stupid, but it worked for me. A placebo maybe, I am not arguing with the results.

That's a pretty dangerous mind set based on the first half of your comment.

Drybones
06-27-2013, 12:37
If you are really interested in the TRUTH about alcoholism I would highly suggest you do a little research and google--Dr. William D Silkworth. Read about his life long body of work in treating alcoholism. Read Silkworths--The Doctors Opinion. WB has more than a few individuals who have the attitude of --Don't confuse me with the facts--I've already made up my mind! lol When I want expert advice on the trail--gear-conditioning-nutrition etc I go to the experts and see what they can teach me based on their experience and body of work. Thus when I want to learn about alcoholism I go to someone like this man not someone with an opinion walking a trail!

The only "experts" are those that have been though it...they're the only ones with the facts.

Drybones
06-27-2013, 12:40
Hmmm. I know I will get thrashed for my thoughts but here goes. Alcohol for some is a major problem, life or death. For the last 39 years I have drank from light to heavy. No I didn't have a problem everyone else around me just did. For the past few years in a normal day I would average 1.5 liters of wine. Some days a lot more, starting at noon until I passed out. At the end of the day I had to have some type of alcohol, if I traveled I was always scoping out where I would get my fix, even buying something mid day to ensure I would have a drink in the evening. My urges/desires where very strong. Now I might have a drink once a week or not, if I have a very physical day and bone tired then I might have a little wine. The strong desire is completely gone, vanished. What changed? Now the barbs come out, so be it. For me, me only, I did not believe it was mental but something else. I treated my desire for a drink as a symptom of an imbalance of a gut parasite/bacteria/?. I have found that taking a garlic supplement from Costco has eliminate the desire for alcohol. Yes I agree it sounds very stupid, but it worked for me. A placebo maybe, I am not arguing with the results.

If it works it works...I have no stones to throw.

atmilkman
06-27-2013, 12:43
If it works it works...I have no stones to throw.

Whatever works. Sometimes "white knuckle" sobriety gets a bad rap in AA. Sometimes it's all you got.

HikerMom58
06-27-2013, 12:45
Hmmm. I know I will get thrashed for my thoughts but here goes. Alcohol for some is a major problem, life or death. For the last 39 years I have drank from light to heavy. No I didn't have a problem everyone else around me just did. For the past few years in a normal day I would average 1.5 liters of wine. Some days a lot more, starting at noon until I passed out. At the end of the day I had to have some type of alcohol, if I traveled I was always scoping out where I would get my fix, even buying something mid day to ensure I would have a drink in the evening. My urges/desires where very strong. Now I might have a drink once a week or not, if I have a very physical day and bone tired then I might have a little wine. The strong desire is completely gone, vanished. What changed? Now the barbs come out, so be it. For me, me only, I did not believe it was mental but something else. I treated my desire for a drink as a symptom of an imbalance of a gut parasite/bacteria/?. I have found that taking a garlic supplement from Costco has eliminate the desire for alcohol. Yes I agree it sounds very stupid, but it worked for me. A placebo maybe, I am not arguing with the results.

Wow... that's GREAT finish9! I'm not knocking what RCBear is saying.. he speaks from experience.

I'm just an outsider looking in... I think most everyone would have to admit that they've watched someone that they loved/close to them, struggle with this... I'm no exception.

"The strong desire is completely gone, vanished."... That is wonderful!!

Only you can know that to be true. If you ever felt the strong desire ,again, I would hope you would have a plan in place to deal with it, ASAP. :) I wish you the best, finish9.

Dogwood
06-27-2013, 12:50
To the Op, I stay sober on trail the same way I stay sober off trail. I strive to stay highly intoxicated all the time - highly intioxicated with living life to the fullest extent I know how. I realized more than 15 yrs ago that I had bought into some huge lies. Drinking alcohol and/or drugging(they are the same) WILL NOT make you overall better but will KEEP you from experiencing life to it's fullest. Say YES to life. You ARE NOT POWERLESS with the CHOICES you make. I realized when I stopped drinking I wasn't losing something overall good I was gaining SO MUCH MORE that I had been missing. That's been a HUGE incentive FOR ME. You DO NOT have to believe you have an incurable disease and you will be in recovery to the grave. Medical research is FAR from proving the disease model of addiction! You can be RECOVERED. You CAN put this behind you - IF YOU WANT. I've seen countless HARDCORE LONG TIME tobacco addicts walk away from their addictions and you can do it with alcohol too! Alcohol addiction isn't some kind of special addiction that requires specialized info or programs to walk away from PERMANENTLY! What most addiction rehab specialists will not tell you is that most, like 60 %, who do beat their addictions do so with NO special organized program.

Drybones
06-27-2013, 12:52
it's a choice. nobody is forcing a bottle to one's mouth. most folks are extremely weak is all

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2bg3k_village-people-macho-man-version-lo_music

gizzy bear
06-27-2013, 13:20
If you are really interested in the TRUTH about alcoholism I would highly suggest you do a little research and google--Dr. William D Silkworth. Read about his life long body of work in treating alcoholism. Read Silkworths--The Doctors Opinion. WB has more than a few individuals who have the attitude of --Don't confuse me with the facts--I've already made up my mind! lol When I want expert advice on the trail--gear-conditioning-nutrition etc I go to the experts and see what they can teach me based on their experience and body of work. Thus when I want to learn about alcoholism I go to someone like this man not someone with an opinion walking a trail!


wow!! i have been looking for the TRUTH for ALL these years and to think YOU had it... thank you old wise one... for now we ALL have your secret and will not walk around acting like bafoons.... that silly ole OP shouldn't have had his own mind and posed his own question on a public website...that is ridiculous that he asks whomever he chooses....thank you for showing us the "right" way... for now, we are not lost...and we all know the TRUTH... my new motto is "WWTD?" "what would tawa do?"

Dogwood
06-27-2013, 13:23
That was strange Drybones. First, I watched a 1 min advertisment hyping Paragard, which at first I thought might be an internal parasite cleanse, but found out is a form of female used birth control. Then, I saw a video of Village People, who I was happily trying to forget about since the 70's. Now, I want to get a drink ... of water!:D

Lone Wolf
06-27-2013, 13:25
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2bg3k_village-people-macho-man-version-lo_music

the village people are weak drunks? what's your point?

gizzy bear
06-27-2013, 13:31
the village people are weak drunks? what's your point?

clearly the village people didnt ask...WWTD?

rocketsocks
06-27-2013, 13:42
To the Op, I stay sober on trail the same way I stay sober off trail. I strive to stay highly intoxicated all the time - highly intioxicated with living life to the fullest extent I know how. I realized more than 15 yrs ago that I had bought into some huge lies. Drinking alcohol and/or drugging(they are the same) WILL NOT make you overall better but will KEEP you from experiencing life to it's fullest. Say YES to life. You ARE NOT POWERLESS with the CHOICES you make. I realized when I stopped drinking I wasn't losing something overall good I was gaining SO MUCH MORE that I had been missing. That's been a HUGE incentive FOR ME. You DO NOT have to believe you have an incurable disease and you will be in recovery to the grave. Medical research is FAR from proving the disease model of addiction! You can be RECOVERED. You CAN put this behind you - IF YOU WANT. I've seen countless HARDCORE LONG TIME tobacco addicts walk away from their addictions and you can do it with alcohol too! Alcohol addiction isn't some kind of special addiction that requires specialized info or programs to walk away from PERMANENTLY! What most addiction rehab specialists will not tell you is that most, like 60 %, who do beat their addictions do so with NO special organized program.
One must always be drunk, that's all that matters, with wine, with poetry, or virtue as you choose~Baudelaire


Also, just want to say that I agree with ya, faith based programs don't work for everyone...I struggled with this too. That said, when a first timer comes in, it is suggested you make 90 meetings in 90 days...it's only a suggestion...but if you hang around that long your bound to find some things you'll identify with and that could be the difference between life and death. Many get sober out of shear tenacity...what ever works...once your over the hump, then decide if the program is for you or not....or not...do what you gotta do to get sober, then live life staying sober...that's where the fun is.

atmilkman
06-27-2013, 13:47
One must always be drunk, that's all that matters, with wine, with poetry, or virtue as you choose~Baudelaire
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRKbWRpICf-d7zEZTE650nxf0IphM02zHKYEsSrUCAZibmUpxQ8bw (http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=-JpZCyMBM4GwEM&tbnid=2UTJrQnt7sr2zM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.okokchina.com%2Fproduct%2FJew elry%2FPendant%2Findex_5.htm&ei=unrMUZb6AZHU9gTHpICADQ&bvm=bv.48572450,d.eWU&psig=AFQjCNGR_kCT3aDwTLzC6c5o3zgVvdQ4HQ&ust=1372441581207723)
There you go again. Here..............

rocketsocks
06-27-2013, 13:55
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRKbWRpICf-d7zEZTE650nxf0IphM02zHKYEsSrUCAZibmUpxQ8bw (http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=-JpZCyMBM4GwEM&tbnid=2UTJrQnt7sr2zM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.okokchina.com%2Fproduct%2FJew elry%2FPendant%2Findex_5.htm&ei=unrMUZb6AZHU9gTHpICADQ&bvm=bv.48572450,d.eWU&psig=AFQjCNGR_kCT3aDwTLzC6c5o3zgVvdQ4HQ&ust=1372441581207723)
There you go again. Here..............
Saf-i-eh...thanks, it's lovely!

Crazy Larry #1
06-27-2013, 14:17
my 2012 hike was good... did 700 miles, but my main concern was to get to town to drink...... drinking and depression drove me off the trail... the only way I did big miles, was to get to town to drink.... I wish I could be relaxed and content.... but I had to be in a hurry to get nowhere..... any other drunks out there that could slow down and enjoy themselves without consumed with alcohol????
I'll never forget going to AA meetings drunken than a real alcoholic.....but let me tell ya buddy that stuff gets in your brain and reminds you of all the good times you had and you remember meeting this person or that person and you remember the time when...and then you drink....but what it does not remind you of is the fact that you do not want to get drunk, you do not want to feel bad, and all you really want is to get to the destination and remember that you did what you really wanted to do the way you wanted to, sober....
You ponder on what I just showed you. If you want to stay sober then remind yourself of the bad times and retain that knowledge and when you begin to think about that beer, that joint, that whisky, that pill you'll remember the good times but then you will recall all the crap that you did not like.....Then maybe you might be able to get a handle on that......

Drybones
06-27-2013, 15:02
That was strange Drybones. First, I watched a 1 min advertisment hyping Paragard, which at first I thought might be an internal parasite cleanse, but found out is a form of female used birth control. Then, I saw a video of Village People, who I was happily trying to forget about since the 70's. Now, I want to get a drink ... of water!:D

The ad wasn't on when I watched it before pasting, if you sat thru it you have more patients than I...yeah, not a Village People fan myself but thought LW might like it.

Drybones
06-27-2013, 15:04
the village people are weak drunks? what's your point?

LOL.......................I dont know, that dude in the opening looks pretty strong.

Lone Wolf
06-27-2013, 15:14
The ad wasn't on when I watched it before pasting, if you sat thru it you have more patients than I...yeah, not a Village People fan myself but thought LW might like it.

are you a doctor? why would you think i like village people?

rocketsocks
06-27-2013, 15:29
time for a little drift


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ii9IzAK7aus

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ii9IzAK7aus

MDSection12
06-27-2013, 15:31
The only "experts" are those that have been though it...they're the only ones with the facts.

Subjective, anecdotal accounts are not always accurate. 'Experts' study a subject objectively, in a manner that can be repeated to ensure validity... Not saying to ignore those with experience, but definitely don't ignore the science behind those experiences either. :)

Dogwood
06-27-2013, 15:37
ABSOLUTELY, laughter, giving, eliciting smiles, gaining wisdom, acheiving dreams, getting healty and physically fit, traveling to experience different cultures and peoples, visting Botanical Gardens, owning my own biz, even hiking, are GREAT drugs. Much better than alcohol! I would MUCH rather take my nieces and nephews Halloween trick or treating, watch July 4th fireworks, or go sleigh riding than get snockered! No comparison! Heck, I even have a GREAT time being the designated driver. That really makes me laugh my arse off and at the same time reminds me how much of an IDIOT I was when I drank. Now, I'm just less of an idiot.

RCBear
06-27-2013, 15:37
Speaking of chaffing prevention, gold bond...or body glide?

rocketsocks
06-27-2013, 15:45
ABSOLUTELY, laughter, giving, eliciting smiles, gaining wisdom, acheiving dreams, getting healty and physically fit, traveling to experience different cultures and peoples, visting Botanical Gardens, owning my own biz, even hiking, are GREAT drugs. Much better than alcohol! I would MUCH rather take my nieces and nephews Halloween trick or treating, watch July 4th fireworks, or go sleigh riding than get snockered! No comparison! Heck, I even have a GREAT time being the designated driver. That really makes me laugh my arse off and at the same time reminds me how much of an IDIOT I was when I drank. Now, I'm just less of an idiot.I love being the designated driver, it's something I'm good at.

tawa
06-27-2013, 15:55
wow!! i have been looking for the TRUTH for ALL these years and to think YOU had it... thank you old wise one... for now we ALL have your secret and will not walk around acting like bafoons.... that silly ole OP shouldn't have had his own mind and posed his own question on a public website...that is ridiculous that he asks whomever he chooses....thank you for showing us the "right" way... for now, we are not lost...and we all know the TRUTH... my new motto is "WWTD?" "what would tawa do?"
Suggestion: Take the time to read what Dr. Silkworth has to say about alcoholism. Nah--how silly of me to suggest that you read what a true expert on the subject has discovered concerning alcoholism! Go back in your den and keep that attitude of don't confuse me with the facts I've already made up my mind! lol Sorry I rattled your cage.

Dogwood
06-27-2013, 16:21
Decades ago, I went to a huge closed AA meeting held in an auditorium in Pennsylvania. The announcer said there were about 1200 people in the meeting. I could hardly breathe in the auditorium and the air was thick with a grayish blue haze. My eyes and throat became severely irritated. At the start of the meeting the announcer said a seperate meeting was being held for non cigarette smokers in an adjacent much smaller auditorium. I expected much of the audience to get up to go into the smaller auditorium. I was one of the less than 20 others who went into the smaller non smoking auditorium. Six commercial sized coffee urns(about 3 ft high) each holding umpteen cups of coffee were also on a table for the attendees to "enjoy". They refilled five of those urns four times each. The one urn not refilled was the decaf. I looked around at who my drinking peers were. I noticed many others with cross addictions/issues? including, most obviously, a much higher rate of obesity than the national avg. I sat there bewildered at the implications. I asked about this from several who had 30 yr + sobriety pins, coins, certificates etc. All but one seemed to notice the connections and hypocrisy.

gizzy bear
06-27-2013, 16:27
Suggestion: Take the time to read what Dr. Silkworth has to say about alcoholism. Nah--how silly of me to suggest that you read what a true expert on the subject has discovered concerning alcoholism! Go back in your den and keep that attitude of don't confuse me with the facts I've already made up my mind! lol Sorry I rattled your cage.

suggestion: don't suggest what i should do, you have NO idea who i am.... my attitude is, i think your "do as i do" post...sucked....so i decided to tell you.... and it made me feel happy :) <---- see

Lone Wolf
06-27-2013, 16:29
Decades ago, I went to a huge closed AA meeting held in an auditorium in Pennsylvania. The announcer said there were about 1200 people in the meeting. I could hardly breathe in the auditorium and the air was thick with a grayish blue haze. My eyes and throat became severely irritated. At the start of the meeting the announcer said a seperate meeting was being held for non cigarette smokers in an adjacent much smaller auditorium. I expected much of the audience to get up to go into the smaller auditorium. I was one of the less than 20 others who went into the smaller non smoking auditorium. Six commercial sized coffee urns(about 3 ft high) each holding umpteen cups of coffee were also on a table for the attendees to "enjoy". They refilled five of those urns four times each. The one urn not refilled was the decaf. I looked around at who my drinking peers were. I noticed many others with cross addictions/issues? including, most obviously, a much higher rate of obesity than the national avg. I sat there bewildered at the implications. I asked about this from several who had 30 yr + sobriety pins, coins, certificates etc. All but one seemed to notice the connections and hypocrisy.
alcohol isn't the problem with so-called alcoholics

gizzy bear
06-27-2013, 16:30
Speaking of chaffing prevention, gold bond...or body glide?

did you use all that anti monkey butt?!

TD55
06-27-2013, 16:44
Plenty of good trails in places where weed is legal, medical and otherwise. You could spend a lifetime hiking Washington and Colorado. Works for some folks.

tawa
06-27-2013, 17:27
suggestion: don't suggest what i should do, you have NO idea who i am.... my attitude is, i think your "do as i do" post...sucked....so i decided to tell you.... and it made me feel happy :) <---- see

When the student is ready the teacher will appear! Why are u so threatened with expert knowledge?

rocketsocks
06-27-2013, 17:33
alcohol isn't the problem with so-called alcoholics
Perhaps...but if I drink, all bets are off, that's a given...so I don't drink ;)

lemon b
06-27-2013, 17:56
Keep it simple. Go a day at a time, ask for help each day, and try & use the phone. And don't go on the tracks.

Lone Wolf
06-27-2013, 20:27
Perhaps...but if I drink, all bets are off, that's a given...so I don't drink ;)

and it's a choice you've made. no meetings needed.

rocketsocks
06-27-2013, 21:12
and it's a choice you've made. no meetings needed.the ism's are always there, just gotta keep em at bay.....anyway you can, if by meetings, and or not drinkin. But yes, it's a choice...one desires to stay sober more than they wanna be drunk...sometimes that choice occurs 100 times a day in the beginning...gets a lot easier with time.

mfleming
06-27-2013, 23:37
Well Mr. Wolf, you are exactly right. I expect as you were laying in the hospital bed pondering your immortality that you were questioning some of the choices you made that helped get you there

illabelle
06-28-2013, 06:55
Decades ago, I went to a huge closed AA meeting held in an auditorium in Pennsylvania. The announcer said there were about 1200 people in the meeting. I could hardly breathe in the auditorium and the air was thick with a grayish blue haze. My eyes and throat became severely irritated. At the start of the meeting the announcer said a seperate meeting was being held for non cigarette smokers in an adjacent much smaller auditorium. I expected much of the audience to get up to go into the smaller auditorium. I was one of the less than 20 others who went into the smaller non smoking auditorium. Six commercial sized coffee urns(about 3 ft high) each holding umpteen cups of coffee were also on a table for the attendees to "enjoy". They refilled five of those urns four times each. The one urn not refilled was the decaf. I looked around at who my drinking peers were. I noticed many others with cross addictions/issues? including, most obviously, a much higher rate of obesity than the national avg. I sat there bewildered at the implications. I asked about this from several who had 30 yr + sobriety pins, coins, certificates etc. All but one seemed to notice the connections and hypocrisy.

I can easily believe this to be true. I belong to a church that stresses healthful living, no tobacco, no alcohol, no caffeine, being vegetarian/vegan, etc. But way too many of us are fat, including me. It seems to be a facet of human nature that when we have abundance, we consume in excessive measure, whether it's something harmful or something as innocent as pasta. How sad.

For me, the Trail has been a big incentive to be healthier, and to try and motivate others in that direction. I suppose though that people outside the hiking community, might think the time, effort, and money spent on the trail is also excessive, and can harm our relationships or financial health. Balance is an important aspect of health.

MDSection12
06-28-2013, 09:15
Decades ago, I went to a huge closed AA meeting held in an auditorium in Pennsylvania. The announcer said there were about 1200 people in the meeting. I could hardly breathe in the auditorium and the air was thick with a grayish blue haze. My eyes and throat became severely irritated. At the start of the meeting the announcer said a seperate meeting was being held for non cigarette smokers in an adjacent much smaller auditorium. I expected much of the audience to get up to go into the smaller auditorium. I was one of the less than 20 others who went into the smaller non smoking auditorium. Six commercial sized coffee urns(about 3 ft high) each holding umpteen cups of coffee were also on a table for the attendees to "enjoy". They refilled five of those urns four times each. The one urn not refilled was the decaf. I looked around at who my drinking peers were. I noticed many others with cross addictions/issues? including, most obviously, a much higher rate of obesity than the national avg. I sat there bewildered at the implications. I asked about this from several who had 30 yr + sobriety pins, coins, certificates etc. All but one seemed to notice the connections and hypocrisy.

I've noticed the same, but I'd like to add that it's not always a substance or even an 'unhealthy' obsession that the addiction is replaced with. Often it's work, exercise, time with family, a hobby... Maybe even hiking. I think some people just have a tendency to take whatever they do to the extreme, and it's important that they focus that energy on productive or at least healthy habits. :)

stranger
06-28-2013, 09:20
my 2012 hike was good... did 700 miles, but my main concern was to get to town to drink...... drinking and depression drove me off the trail... the only way I did big miles, was to get to town to drink.... I wish I could be relaxed and content.... but I had to be in a hurry to get nowhere..... any other drunks out there that could slow down and enjoy themselves without consumed with alcohol????

Been there, done that, more than once! The only way to stay sober is to get comfortable living life sober. Alcoholism has nothing to do with drinking alcohol, that's why it's a disease. Put the drink down and it's still there, staying sober is more of a starting point than an accomplishment in my view. But to want to drink, and force yourself to refrain from drinking is what I would call pure hell. AA is about living a rich, rewarding life without the cravings of alcohol.

I haven't craved a drink in over 2.5 years, and I was a guy would couldn't go more than 18 hours without a drink for 10 years. I started doing AA, I put in the work, I did the steps, I AM AN ATHEIST, and nearly 3 years sobriety, 2.5 years with no cravings...it's all very, very simple. You need to be willing do do the program, then you need to do it.

You do not have to believe in it, that's the best thing about it. It works, as long as you DO it.

atmilkman
06-28-2013, 09:44
I've noticed the same, but I'd like to add that it's not always a substance or even an 'unhealthy' obsession that the addiction is replaced with. Often it's work, exercise, time with family, a hobby... Maybe even hiking. I think some people just have a tendency to take whatever they do to the extreme, and it's important that they focus that energy on productive or at least healthy habits. :)

You're right. It's called substitute addiction. Exercise and sports being very popular because of the physical benefits leading to the belief of a "healthier" body. Not ever considering that it all starts in the mind.

MDSection12
06-28-2013, 10:00
You're right. It's called substitute addiction. Exercise and sports being very popular because of the physical benefits leading to the belief of a "healthier" body. Not ever considering that it all starts in the mind.

I know I have an addictive personality, but luckily I've never let substances be the focus of it. My big two are food and outdoor activities... Luckily they balance out pretty well. :)

Drybones
06-28-2013, 10:11
Been there, done that, more than once! The only way to stay sober is to get comfortable living life sober. Alcoholism has nothing to do with drinking alcohol, that's why it's a disease. Put the drink down and it's still there, staying sober is more of a starting point than an accomplishment in my view. But to want to drink, and force yourself to refrain from drinking is what I would call pure hell. AA is about living a rich, rewarding life without the cravings of alcohol.

I haven't craved a drink in over 2.5 years, and I was a guy would couldn't go more than 18 hours without a drink for 10 years. I started doing AA, I put in the work, I did the steps, I AM AN ATHEIST, and nearly 3 years sobriety, 2.5 years with no cravings...it's all very, very simple. You need to be willing do do the program, then you need to do it.

You do not have to believe in it, that's the best thing about it. It works, as long as you DO it.

A good post from down under.

atmilkman
06-28-2013, 10:16
I know I have an addictive personality, but luckily I've never let substances be the focus of it. My big two are food and outdoor activities... Luckily they balance out pretty well. :)

A good balance. When I was walking a lot at the county park before my thru attempt there was a girl there everyday running about 8 miles and that is a good bit more than the average person was doing. I asked her if she was training for something and she said no, she just likes to eat. Just goes to show you how the old adage of if your gonna play you gotta pay. In her case it was eating. Same as if your gonna drink. You're gonna have to pay somewhere along the line.

Drybones
06-28-2013, 10:20
I can easily believe this to be true. I belong to a church that stresses healthful living, no tobacco, no alcohol, no caffeine, being vegetarian/vegan, etc. But way too many of us are fat, including me. It seems to be a facet of human nature that when we have abundance, we consume in excessive measure, whether it's something harmful or something as innocent as pasta. How sad.

For me, the Trail has been a big incentive to be healthier, and to try and motivate others in that direction. I suppose though that people outside the hiking community, might think the time, effort, and money spent on the trail is also excessive, and can harm our relationships or financial health. Balance is an important aspect of health.

Anything can become a habit, just takes much longer for good things than bad, one day and I can develop a bad habit, takes about 6 weeks to develop a good habit. Exercise as an example, first 6 weeks you hate it and then you notice improvement, then you actually get to the point you enjoy the pain because you know what it's creating. Or, start flossing your teeth before bed and in about 6 weeks you cant go to bed without it.

Drybones
06-28-2013, 10:24
A good balance. When I was walking a lot at the county park before my thru attempt there was a girl there everyday running about 8 miles and that is a good bit more than the average person was doing. I asked her if she was training for something and she said no, she just likes to eat. Just goes to show you how the old adage of if your gonna play you gotta pay. In her case it was eating. Same as if your gonna drink. You're gonna have to pay somewhere along the line.

Sounds like my wife, she used to do 8 miles a day. In some cases running can become addictive like alcohol.

Sailor (The other one)
06-29-2013, 13:41
Lone Wolf’s posts often give me something to think about. I have been thinking about this one for several days:

“it's a choice. nobody is forcing a bottle to one's mouth. most folks are extremely weak is all”

I realized that, for me, both points, choice and weakness, are true. They are also irrelevant.

I chose not to drink many times before I got into recovery. Each time it was to prove that I was not weak, that I could quit anytime I wanted to. I did it for as long as six months. Each time it sucked, huge. I struggled with cravings every day and the longer I was dry the worse it got and the worse I felt. I was sustained with the idea that once I had proved I was strong, I’d be able to go back to drinking. Even though drinking made my life miserable, it seemed preferable to the misery of white knuckle sobriety. At the time, I did not know there was any other kind.

Finally, after losing enough, bloated, paranoid, 1 foot from homelessness and facing congestive heart failure, I stopped caring about appearing weak and crawled into AA. I didn’t bother to study reported recovery rates, give a damn about whether it was religious or not, based on quality science or not, philosophically pure or not, something anyone else approved or not, whether my ego liked it or not – I was desperate, dying and alone and AA is all I’d heard about so I dragged myself there.

And it worked. I have not had a craving for alcohol since I did the 12 Steps.

Man I’m grateful today.

hikerboy57
06-29-2013, 13:46
Lone Wolf’s posts often give me something to think about. I have been thinking about this one for several days:

“it's a choice. nobody is forcing a bottle to one's mouth. most folks are extremely weak is all”

I realized that, for me, both points, choice and weakness, are true. They are also irrelevant.

I chose not to drink many times before I got into recovery. Each time it was to prove that I was not weak, that I could quit anytime I wanted to. I did it for as long as six months. Each time it sucked, huge. I struggled with cravings every day and the longer I was dry the worse it got and the worse I felt. I was sustained with the idea that once I had proved I was strong, I’d be able to go back to drinking. Even though drinking made my life miserable, it seemed preferable to the misery of white knuckle sobriety. At the time, I did not know there was any other kind.

Finally, after losing enough, bloated, paranoid, 1 foot from homelessness and facing congestive heart failure, I stopped caring about appearing weak and crawled into AA. I didn’t bother to study reported recovery rates, give a damn about whether it was religious or not, based on quality science or not, philosophically pure or not, something anyone else approved or not, whether my ego liked it or not – I was desperate, dying and alone and AA is all I’d heard about so I dragged myself there.

And it worked. I have not had a craving for alcohol since I did the 12 Steps.

Man I’m grateful today.

whatever works.
thanks for sharing and congratulations

mfleming
06-29-2013, 19:26
I didn't go to AA to stop drinking. I went to AA because I stopped drinking.

stranger
06-29-2013, 22:17
I didn't go to AA to stop drinking. I went to AA because I stopped drinking.

I love this...well put!

I believe the reason so many alcoholics fail at recovery is that they make the mistake of thinking their problem is that they drink too much. Most people drink more than they should, many more abuse alcohol weekly, perhaps daily...that doesn't make them alcoholics.

What's an alcoholic? You know when you get there, but many people die before they get to that point. It's like an elevator that only goes down, it only goes one direction, but you do have a choice how far down you need to go. For some, that's death.

12 step programs are by far, by far, the most successful way of regaining control of your life, LOSING the craving for alcohol, and spending the rest of your life happy, healthy and sober. But like joining a gym, you need to put in the work and eat right if you want to see results. Joining a gym alone achieves nothing, and simply going to AA meetings is like going to the gym and talking to others doing the work.

You gotta get in there and do the work.

rocketsocks
08-15-2013, 18:04
I love this...well put!

I believe the reason so many alcoholics fail at recovery is that they make the mistake of thinking their problem is that they drink too much. Most people drink more than they should, many more abuse alcohol weekly, perhaps daily...that doesn't make them alcoholics.

What's an alcoholic? You know when you get there, but many people die before they get to that point. It's like an elevator that only goes down, it only goes one direction, but you do have a choice how far down you need to go. For some, that's death.

12 step programs are by far, by far, the most successful way of regaining control of your life, LOSING the craving for alcohol, and spending the rest of your life happy, healthy and sober. But like joining a gym, you need to put in the work and eat right if you want to see results. Joining a gym alone achieves nothing, and simply going to AA meetings is like going to the gym and talking to others doing the work.

You gotta get in there and do the work.
That's right...it's alcoholism, not alcoholwasum...we don't get to graduate...and on that note, goin to a "eatin meetin"...later

Hope your all having a great Summer.

kayak karl
08-15-2013, 19:58
That's right...it's alcoholism, not alcoholwasum...we don't get to graduate...and on that note, goin to a "eatin meetin"...later Anniversary Night? :)

rocketsocks
08-15-2013, 21:36
Anniversary Night? :)Yep....Anniversary, but Ugh! I got the night wrong, it's the second week in Sept is the eatin meetin.....I'm forever showin up all late and wrong :D good thing it wasn't up to me to bring the cake.....not that it wouldn't get eatin, this crew is hongry. Twas a good meetin though!:)

Teacher & Snacktime
08-16-2013, 13:31
If only it were that simple. If only it were a simple matter of weakness or strength--but for many people it is not that simple. To tell the true addict or true alcohol that willpower alone can fix the issue is like saying that sheer willpower can prevent a heart attack from occurring or that willpower can keep a diabetic from needing insulin. It is isn't that simple.

Addiction and substance dependence are complex issues with no single cause. For as many alcoholics, there is a genetic component which predisposes them to alcoholism. There is a great deal of evidence that, for many alcoholics, their bodies even metabolize and process alcohol differently than non-alcoholics. There are environmental factors which play a role--and yes (to a lesser degree) even willpower can play a role in some cases. These are just a few of the many factors which impact addiction and dependence.

Many people have given good advice regarding staying sober on the trail: Stay out of town as much as possible. Go to meetings when you can. Bring recovery literature with you and read it. Hike with a non-drinking group of hikers. Better yet, hike with recovering people.


I couldn't have put it better. I agree with LW to the extent that ultimately, boiled down to the absolute basics, it's a seemingly simple decision to do or not to do, but you have pointed out well the reasons why that choice is not actually a simple one.

Teacher & Snacktime
08-16-2013, 13:34
addiction is a "dependence"... one feels like he or she cannot live without a certain substance... and while i agree that in some cases it is a "choice" and with will power and the help of loved ones and programs, those are the success stories... unfortunately, there are some lost souls out there, that no matter how hard they try and how much those that love them try to help... their bodies have been consumed by their dependence...it is a sad life...for the addict...and even sadder for the ones that love them....

excrutiating

Sunshine82
08-16-2013, 14:37
My first advice would be get help before the trail.and after that the beauty and serenity of the trail itself should keep you sober

WorldPeaceAndStuff
08-17-2013, 10:44
It's a choice to start anything. I smoked two packs of cigs a day for six years. Put out number 24 at about quarter to nine 15, December 2005 and haven't touched one since. I had to tell myself no to a cig over 30 times a day first week. I was still craving them in 2010 about four a year. Writing this I just realized that I haven't really wanted one since moving to High Country. Nicotine is the most evil addiction there is. Opiates are easier to quit.

I smoked weed daily for ten years and stopped. Three days after smoking it I was fine no craving. Total opposite to cigs.

I ran into health issues and started using pain pills in 2007. Fully dependent and addicted by 2010, maintenance by 2012. Quitting was much easier than cigs but I did taper down before jumping off.

Nowadays I'll smoke weed occasionally but never daily again. That's when everything gets out of control no matter what substance or activity, food included.
My whole family talked bad about me and drugs yet they all are morbidly obese and have all the health issues that go with that. I hike, climb and trail run now. They haven't changed a bit. Now I just walk in smiling big and don't mention the obv, I did what they cannot and that's break the health destroying habits that consume you.

marshbirder
08-17-2013, 13:01
It's nice to see so many sober hikers here! I moved from Tampa, FL (100s of meetings a week) to Morgantown, WV (maybe 25 meetings a week) last year and I have really struggled to connect with the people and the program here. Staying connected to AA on the trail has been a concern of mine, but I guess I'm getting good practice right now. All I really need is my Big Book and some speaking tapes (mp3s).

hilltackler
08-27-2013, 16:25
If it were me...I would get sober and get at least a year of sobriety under your belt. You'll be amazed at how much clearer you will begin to get. And in the meanwhile do some section hiking. But for now concentrate on recovery.

A.T.Lt
08-27-2013, 21:04
I'm addicted to sunflower seeds...every chance I get I'm eating them.. I make a mess every where!!

But seriously, you need a great support system, and surround yourself with people that wont lead you into that bar stool again.