When to use Permethrin.

[Stir Fry]

How close to when I start my hike should I traet with Permethrin? Directions say its good for 6 mo. or 6 washings. If your gears not being used and just sitting in a closet, does the Permethrin lose effectiveness?

[mtntopper]

yes it does

[Jack Tarlin]

When is it considered a wise and prudent idea to permeate your outerwear and intimate garments with poison? Um, how about never.

[Slosteppin]

I don't think so. I soak all my outside hiking clothes in a permethrin solution every April. Some get worn frequently some only a few times all summer. They all seem to be equally effective in late September.
I think the number of washing has more effect than time.

Probably when the third person answers their reply will be totally different.

[coach lou]

Is it known to irritate the skin?

[rocketsocks]

As per Sawyers instruction on treating with Permethrin.

treat no more that every 42 days
store garment in dark place and bagged to reduce exposure to air and light
2229022291

[coach lou]

As per Sawyers instruction on treating with Permethrin.

treat no more that every 42 days
store garment in dark place and bagged to reduce exposure to air and light
2229022291 I went to 3 hardwear stores and one pseudo outfitter today .......nothin'!

[BuckeyeBill]

I went to 3 hardwear stores and one pseudo outfitter today .......nothin'!

REi and Campmor both carry it.
YOu can also try your local farm supply store.

[Teacher & Snacktime]

Walmart carries it.

[rocketsocks]

I went to 3 hardwear stores and one pseudo outfitter today .......nothin'!The Sawyer brand I bought at Walmart...$12 bucks 12 oz. If I remember right

And another brand "Ben's" I got at EMS...$8.95...for 6 oz.

[Stir Fry]

Thats where I got mine Local farm supply Southern States About 1/10 the cost of REI.

[ChinMusic]

When is it considered a wise and prudent idea to permeate your outerwear and intimate garments with poison? Um, how about never.
How about always. TEHO

[rocketsocks]

When is it considered a wise and prudent idea to permeate your outerwear and intimate garments with poison? Um, how about never.Can't really disagree with ya, but the alternative is not real bright should you get infected and not know it.

[Snowleopard]

Q. How long does Permethrin last?
A. At the concentration level delivered in the aerosol, non-aerosol pump sprays and soak systems (all at 0.5% Permethrin), an application lasts for six weeks and through six washings. Permethrin breaks down through exposure to air (oxygen) and sunlight (ultraviolet light). If you store the clothes in black plastic bags between uses, you can extend the time of effectiveness; however, always retreat after the sixth laundering. Permethrin may also be used on sleeping bags, tents and nettings.

http://www.sawyer.com/permFAQ.html (http://www.sawyer.com/permFAQ.html)
The US military recommends not using permethrin on underwear and headbands. It is ineffective on skin; use DEET on exposed skin. Do a careful tick check each evening; this is pretty hard to do yourself.

[ChinMusic]

http://www.sawyer.com/permFAQ.html (http://www.sawyer.com/permFAQ.html)
The US military recommends not using permethrin on underwear and headbands. It is ineffective on skin; use DEET on exposed skin. Do a careful tick check each evening; this is pretty hard to do yourself.
The undergarment part is due to some reporting rashes. It is not because of inherent, serious chemical risk.

I do not get such rashes and ALWAYS treat my undergarments and Buff. YMMV

[shakey_snake]

When is it considered a wise and prudent idea to permeate your outerwear and intimate garments with poison? Um, how about never.It's called [doing laundry](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_poisoning), bro.

[coach lou]

REi and Campmor both carry it.
YOu can also try your local farm supply store.

Ha Ha, Farm Supply in Southern Connecticut! You so funny!

[rocketsocks]

Ha Ha, Farm Supply in Southern Connecticut! You so funny!
Now that is funny

[coach lou]

I will ride on over to Walmart this morning

[ChinMusic]

I will ride on over to Walmart this morning
My experience on the trail is that Walmart does not have permethrin in their stores. It is a product listed on their website.

[Double Wide]

Amazon Prime.

Free shipping and no sales tax. 24 oz for $15.69

[DeerPath]

I dip my dogs in Permethrin - 8oz to 12 gal water. Works great - cheaper than Frontline and collars. I buy it at Tractor Supply Co. 32oz for $19.95. Also dip my outer clothes, never had a problem.
Happy Trails

[atmilkman]

I dip my dogs in Permethrin - 8oz to 12 gal water. Works great - cheaper than Frontline and collars. I buy it at Tractor Supply Co. 32oz for $19.95. Also dip my outer clothes, never had a problem.
Happy Trails
What percentage is that from Tractor Supply? Is that the same ratio you use for your clothes?

[nu2hike]

There's a product at Tractor Supply "Horse & Stable" that is the exact same product that Sawyer sells ! About $19 a gallon. I use it all the time with great results!

[atmilkman]

There's a product at Tractor Supply "Horse & Stable" that is the exact same product that Sawyer sells ! About $19 a gallon. I use it all the time with great results!

Is this product ready to use with no dilution?

[gplg]

Is this product ready to use with no dilution?

If I remember reading on another site correctly, the tractor supply stuff was a little different than the sawyer(stronger concentration IIRC)and needed to be diluted.

It should never be put on the skin and needs to be completely dry before wearing(highly toxic when wet).

[Snowleopard]

People have reported that some brands of farm supply permethrin leave an odor on clothes. There was a thread a year or two ago that found brands that left less odor. It needs to be diluted to 0.5% for use on human clothes.

[Wise Old Owl]

Is it known to irritate the skin?
Yes it does only treat outer layers. If on the skin your skin will itch abt three weeks.

[Rain Man]

There's a product at Tractor Supply "Horse & Stable" that is the exact same product that Sawyer sells !!

That has not been my experience. I have used Sawyers (from REI for hiking gear), Gordon's (mail order www.bugspray.com/ (http://www.bugspray.com/) for in-home use, and Martin's (from Tractor Supply for farm livestock use). The smells are very different to my nose.

Sawyers and Gordon's have very little odor and it dissipates when dry. Both are intended for use around people.

Martin's has a strong (to my nose) petroleum scent, which only dissipates somewhat when dry. It is intended for use on livestock, not in homes or on clothing.

Anyway, this is how it seems to me. Note: The "BuySpray.com" folks last told me to call when ordering to make sure I'm getting the low-odor version, as their supplier switches things up on them from time to time.

There is/are one or more long discussions about Permethrin on the www.HammockForums.net site.

Rain:sunMan

.

[coach lou]

@ our local W**m***, I found only the spray, 0.5%, size for 2 suits. I got all set up and locked the cats in the house and found the spray handle broken!!!:mad: So I put in a bucket that bottle and 3 bottles of water, and soaked my light green fishin' bug shirt( which had run out 400 washes ago), and my long pants that I got on sale @ REI w/Oz. I will bottle what is left. The directions say it is very bad for cats, wet.

[slbirdnerd]

I buy the Sawyer AT Walmart in the camping section. Cabela's sometimes has it too. You don't know if it's going to give you a rash until you try it. Mine did not, treated socks, shoes, shorts, shirt, buff and backpack. Used Off Deep Woods "Dry". Two days in GA, not one tick and not one mosquito bite on either of us. Incidentally, we ran into a large group of Army Ranger trainees at Three Forks and they had the same Off product. That was reassuring, except for the fact they were trying to kill a nest of hornets on the footbridge with it...

[da fungo]

People have reported that some brands of farm supply permethrin leave an odor on clothes. There was a thread a year or two ago that found brands that left less odor. It needs to be diluted to 0.5% for use on human clothes.

Odor on clothes: How can you tell, given how most long distance hikers already smell?

[ChinMusic]

Yes it does only treat outer layers. If on the skin your skin will itch abt three weeks.
I treat all my hiking clothing with permethrin. No issues ever. So I take issue with your statement.

[coach lou]

I treat all my hiking clothing with permethrin. No issues ever. So I take issue with your statement.

So Chin, do you think my method in #30 is sufficiant?

[Wise Old Owl]

@ our local W**m***, I found only the spray, 0.5%, size for 2 suits. I got all set up and locked the cats in the house and found the spray handle broken!!!:mad: So I put in a bucket that bottle and 3 bottles of water, and soaked my light green fishin' bug shirt( which had run out 400 washes ago), and my long pants that I got on sale @ REI w/Oz. I will bottle what is left. The directions say it is very bad for cats, wet.


Hope you had gloves on. Next time stop by a dollar store for small spray bottles.

[Wise Old Owl]

I treat all my hiking clothing with permethrin. No issues ever. So I take issue with your statement.



you do that often,,,, its from personal experience, see I work in pest control. The crap makes me itch.

[coach lou]

Hope you had gloves on. Next time stop by a dollar store for small spray bottles.

I had gloves, long sleves, all I had was a bandana. The back yard looked like the Valdeze spill....paper towels to catch the drip....Plastic bags to toss them. They are hanging in the Garage now Drip drying. The shirt is a long sleeve Exofficio (?) Bug/UV shirt. When it was new it worked very well in some nasty back country fishing situations. It needed the tune up.
Anyhow, I took all the cloths I had on and put them in the washer and them showered myself!

[coach lou]

you do that often,,,, its from personal experience, see I work in pest control. The crap makes me itch.

You may have developed a hyper sensitivity to it. I know painters that can't even walk in the shop anymore!

[ChinMusic]

So Chin, do you think my method in #30 is sufficiant?
I guess it depends on whether soaking with the spray version gives adequate coverage. I would guess so but it would only be a guess.

[ChinMusic]

you do that often,,,, its from personal experience, see I work in pest control. The crap makes me itch.
For years and years.

[Wise Old Owl]

You may have developed a hyper sensitivity to it. I know painters that can't even walk in the shop anymore!


The only time was the first time with the hammock ... treated the underside and after it dried put it up and tested in the backyard and my back itched three weeks.


The humid night caused me to sweat and thru capillary action I sucked it up into my skin on my back. I cannot begin to think of another explanation.

[jeffmeh]

Coach Lou, from what you described it sounds like you had to dilute it 3:1 water to 0.5% permethrin. If that is the case, you dipped in a 0.13% permethrin solution. I suspect it is better than nothing, but I would treat again.

[coach lou]

Coach Lou, from what you described it sounds like you had to dilute it 3:1 water to 0.5% permethrin. If that is the case, you dipped in a 0.13% permethrin solution. I suspect it is better than nothing, but I would treat again.
I agree on both counts. I have no time to dip again....I will go for it! Thanks:)

[Dogwood]

People have reported that some brands of farm supply permethrin leave an odor on clothes. There was a thread a year or two ago that found brands that left less odor. It needs to be diluted to 0.5% for use on human clothes.

What typically happens though is when the bugs are nasty folks just keep slathering it on more than directions say because they think more of the stuff will always solve the problem. A little is good, more has to be better, right?

[corrales_305]

The only thing that I advise is that if using permethrin use it with extreme caution around pets in the home. I nearly killed my pet cats and the outcome was like $500 wasted in vet care and cats almost died. I'm no anti-chemical all natural type person or nothing like that,it is just is a very dangerous chemical to certain animals. cats, fish, some birds, and in high doses, even dogs will have seizures. A couple of drops can kill a cat or fish. my cats just got some on there hind paw while walking on the kitchen tile where I was applying to some gear and with in 12 hrs they were twitching and having seizures. If I would not have figured out it was the permethrin that did this and rushed to the vet they would have both died. They had to be hospitalized, get a anti seizure meds, iv flush, decontaminated, all because of minimal exposure. The animals can be exposed even days after the application because of the residue. I week after the cats came out of the hospital they still had to be isolated and stay locked in a room for a month for fear of recontamination. So point being get outside or somewhere far away from pets when dealing with Permethrin or Permethrin treated items. Not all 22304permethrin treated items or the actual bottles of permethrin warn of this danger but its very real. (my cat 2 weeks after with shaved legs due to the I.V.'S)

[Dogwood]

I find it more than a bit interesting and I'm skeptical that a insecticide or repellant(make ya happy?) can have such affects on cats, fish, amphibians, birds, insects, etc yet I'm to believe it has ABSOLUTELY NO EFFECT ON ME. All too often I've heard "it's completely safe when used as directed' only later to find out uhh....

[corrales_305]

I find it more than a bit interesting and I'm skeptical that a insecticide or repellant(make ya happy?) can have such affects on cats, fish, amphibians, birds, insects, etc yet I'm to believe it has ABSOLUTELY NO EFFECT ON ME. All too often I've heard "it's completely safe when used as directed' only later to find out uhh....
I'm no doctor, but the vet that treated the cats was talking to me about a publishing on I don't know what medical journal. It states that a study has concluded that long term exposure to permethrin and Parkinson disease are in linked somehow. He did not go in to detail but said that its not very good to be around it a whole lot.

[Rain Man]

Sorry... duplicate, so ignore.

.

[Dogwood]

Hence, soaking hiking clothing in it. Military might do something like that to EXTERIOR soldier's clothing but I think that may be a bit different than say soaking a hiking tee shirt in when that's all I'll be wearing on my torso. AGAIN, according to directions, Permerthrin IS NOT designed to be sprayed on the skin. Take wahtever out of that you might or perhaps nothing at all.

[jeffmeh]

I find it more than a bit interesting and I'm skeptical that a insecticide or repellant(make ya happy?) can have such affects on cats, fish, amphibians, birds, insects, etc yet I'm to believe it has ABSOLUTELY NO EFFECT ON ME. All too often I've heard "it's completely safe when used as directed' only later to find out uhh....

Nice "straw man" argument, lol. Of course it neither has "absolutely no effect on" humans, nor is it "completely safe when used as directed." However, nothing in life is risk-free, and we are weighing the relative risks of the permethrin vs. insect-borne disease, particularly Lyme. That is a personal decision, and I will definitely take my chances with the permethrin. Further, the doseage makes the poison (it is an insecticide, most assuredly), and there is an enormous difference between the toxicity of the liquid, and that of a treated, dried, and washed piece of clothing.

[ChinMusic]

To me it's an easy call.

A chemical with a long track record vs a tricky disease that can debilitate.

The "what-ifs" lose.

[Jack Tarlin]

Scary posts above. Will re-iterate what I said earlier: The wisest and most prudent time to wear clothing permeated and soaked in poison? Um, never, but maybe that's just me. Look at any bug spray, especially the strongest ones.....they all say use sparingly and only when necessary; they caution against excessive use, exposure to cuts, orifices, eyes, etc. In light of all these cautions, then why anyone would want to wear poison-permeated clothing all day long, or sleep in it all night long or whatever......this escapes me. Also curious....in that some of this stuff is inadvisable to spray ON the skin, then why on earth would any sensible person want this stuff NEXT to their skin for days at a time? Insecticide-ridden clothing? I have one word to say.......yuck.

[coach lou]

Too many things are going to kill me........I've painted cars most of my life, I got my letter from Camp Lejeune about the water, I've drank water from that hoof print......I've slatherd on lots of deet............I soaked my walkin' clothes....it's going to be real bad w/ skeeters, flies, and ticks!

[coach lou]

I was very careful about the spillage and clean-up. I keep the cats inside, and they can't get in the garage now where the stuff is hanging to dry.

[ChinMusic]

Another reason for the treatment of "outerwear only" is that outerwear is what comes in contact with the pests. Many read this as a warning to not treat undergarments.

[corrales_305]

I was very careful about the spillage and clean-up. I keep the cats inside, and they can't get in the garage now where the stuff is hanging to dry.
That's the way to go. I just wish I would have known that is was so toxic to animals. The bottle I used had no pet warnings on the label, not that I read label warnings that much. After the whole thing, I went back to read the warnings and there was no warning pertaining to animals.

[rocketsocks]

When ever I want to know the skinny on a product, I always consult the MSDS's (Material Safety Data Sheet)

http://www.cdms.net/ldat/mp7GD012.pdf

[coach lou]

When ever I want to know the skinny on a product, I always consult the MSDS's (Material Safety Data Sheet)

http://www.cdms.net/ldat/mp7GD012.pdf
Excellent...thanks 'socks

[rocketsocks]

Excellent...thanks 'socks Your welcome Coach
Interestingly I didn't see anything about cats in the report...this report may have come before any incidents occurred with cats.

[Snowleopard]

MSDS normally report possible human effects of chemicals and often don't report environmental problems or effects on other species.

For me the choice is between potential harmful effects of permethrin and the fairly high probability of Lyme disease in the places I hike ( I know one person in the suburbs of Boston who has had Lyme twice from ticks in her back yard). I don't like to use DEET because it seems to be a mild asthma trigger for me. Permethrin is also (for me), but less so and only when applying it to clothing; once it's dry it doesn't bother me.

There are also serious mosquito borne diseases here in Mass (West Nile Virus, Eastern Equine Encephalitis). There are also black flies here, which carry no fatal diseases but make you wish you were dead.

The alternative is to cover up well with untreated clothes (long pants tucked into socks, long shirt, bug net) and do a thorough nightly tick check. It's hard to do a thorough tick check on yourself and there are parts of your anatomy that I won't check for you.

[Wise Old Owl]

That's the ticket folks ... The label is the law, Ya have to follow the MSDS and the Label when applying any "cide" Ya have to read the instructions.

Corrales, had you read the instructions you would have known about the issue to cats. I am very sorry they got so sick, but when this product is wet - well now you now.

To be honest, had you read the label you would have done it outside on a non windy day instead you used it on or near kitchen food surfaces.

Here is a lot of good Q&A about the treatment
http://www.sawyer.com/permFAQ.html

[Odd Man Out]

... I don't like to use DEET because it seems to be a mild asthma trigger for me....

Have you checked out picaradin? It is a repellent as effective as DEET but reported to be much less irritating to the skin, odorless, and won't damage synthetic fabrics.

[Blue Sky II]

Right on! I've been using it since the late nineties and I'm still alive. I'll take permethrin over ticks and mosquitos any day. I dilute 'Tengard' (36%) with distilled water. As far as this stuff being toxic to humans .......it's toxic to head lice cause they use about the same percentage in shampoos.

[Wise Old Owl]

As kids on bicycles and didn't know any better we used to ride behind the fog of DDT and the mosquito truck. DDT's possible resistance, won't break down some 40 years. Every person who used DDT in the 40s - 70's never died of DDT.

I am thrilled to see Blue Sky's Post because millions of people die of Malaria, Yellow Fever, Encephalitis.. Hey I got thru that without spell check - ... and now West Nile. Surprise the young and old still DIE from Encephalitis here in the USA! IF you have kids and you are in the woods you better get motivated to get the Deep Woods OFF or Ultrathon on your kid. IF you are a person who enjoys baseball - most fields are on flat land surrounded by still water or a stream... you better reach for the chemicals. If you are on a golf course, that water trap with a broken fountain pump is a huge issue. Mosquitoes cannot reproduce on moving water! Get passionate and educated about your heath, and read more on the CDC sites. All these products carry a caution.. your toothpaste and underarm deodorant or the fact you drink water with chlorine or use a bar of soap (lye) is more dangerous.. but you live in a great country and you have a choice.

Here is the choice Encephalitis? or Ultrathon? Death or thousands to save a child or $7?


You Decide. No apologies. That's my view after years of college continuing ed and I stand by it. I am required to continue to learn and I LOVE MY DAMN JOB.

[The Ace]

As kids on bicycles and didn't know any better we used to ride behind the fog of DDT and the mosquito truck. DDT's possible resistance, won't break down some 40 years. Every person who used DDT in the 40s - 70's never died of DDT.

I used to do this when I was a kid. Great memories, and I have definitely made it intact to the “long-run.” It’s gravy from here on out. I spray clothing heavily and frequently with Sawyer Permethrin and it gets on my skin without any issues. (I would spray the family cat that my grown children left behind at home if I could get away with it). However, DEET gives me an itching skin rash worse than poison ivy and it goes right though my clothes. So, instead I carry a little Picaridin for arms and face when needed (rarely). The effect of the Picaridin wears off very fast though.

[Snowleopard]

Have you checked out picaradin? It is a repellent as effective as DEET but reported to be much less irritating to the skin, odorless, and won't damage synthetic fabrics.
Thanks for the suggestion. I haven't tried it, but just spent some time researching it. It is effective against mosquitoes, supposedly about the same as DEET at the same concentration (but available products have one third to half the concentration as Ultrathon).

The info on picaridin and ticks is questionable: I haven't found any reliable sources that say that it's effective against ticks and several reliable sources say it is NOT effective against ticks. I found no primary research on picaridin and ticks.

Someday when I'm feeling brave I'll sniff some picaridin to see if it affects my asthma. It would be nice to be able to wear a tee shirt instead of long sleeves when the mosquitoes are bad.

[DeerPath]

The only thing that I advise is that if using permethrin use it with extreme caution around pets in the home. I nearly killed my pet cats and the outcome was like $500 wasted in vet care and cats almost died. I'm no anti-chemical all natural type person or nothing like that,it is just is a very dangerous chemical to certain animals. cats, fish, some birds, and in high doses, even dogs will have seizures. A couple of drops can kill a cat or fish. my cats just got some on there hind paw while walking on the kitchen tile where I was applying to some gear and with in 12 hrs they were twitching and having seizures. If I would not have figured out it was the permethrin that did this and rushed to the vet they would have both died. They had to be hospitalized, get a anti seizure meds, iv flush, decontaminated, all because of minimal exposure. The animals can be exposed even days after the application because of the residue. I week after the cats came out of the hospital they still had to be isolated and stay locked in a room for a month for fear of recontamination. So point being get outside or somewhere far away from pets when dealing with Permethrin or Permethrin treated items. Not all 22304permethrin treated items or the actual bottles of permethrin warn of this danger but its very real. (my cat 2 weeks after with shaved legs due to the I.V.'S)

I purchase PERMETHRIN 10 from Tractor supply. Inside the instruction pages on page 2 it says "For Pet Use - Use Only On Dogs", on page 12 "(Do Not Use On Puppies Less Than 12 Weeks)".
It is imperative you completely read the instructions when using chemicals.
Sorry about you cat.

[Dogwood]

From the EPA: "In 1972, EPA issued a cancellation order for DDT based on adverse environmental effects of its use, such as those to wildlife, as well as DDT’s potential human health risks. Since then, studies have continued, and a causal relationship between DDT exposure and reproductive effects is suspected. Today, DDT is classified as a probable human carcinogen by U.S. and international authorities. This classification is based on animal studies in which some animals developed liver tumors.

DDT is known to be very persistent in the environment, will accumulate in fatty tissues, and can travel long distances in the upper atmosphere. Since the use of DDT was discontinued in the United States, its concentration in the environment and animals has decreased, but because of its persistence, residues of concern from historical use still remain."

[Dogwood]

While we need to carefully examine the use of insecticides for their possible benefits it is a FAR STRETCH to say NO ONE has died from DDT! Despite clearly stated uses and directions I still notice MANY folks incorrectly using insecticdes against directions.

[jeffmeh]

So where is the documented evidence of a human death caused by DDT? Again, the dosage makes the poison. Even granting that DDT was overused (though much of the Rachel Carson narrative has been discredited at this point), with a million deaths per year from malaria, the wholesale ban has led to many more deaths than one could possibly attribute to DDT.

[RockDoc]

For Maine AT in June-July I bought the strong stuff at Home Depot and soaked our outer clothes, rain gear, and even our tent.

I would do it again. It was EXCELLENT.

We met hikers in all long clothes with high gaitors and parka hoods buttoned up tight (in how weather; miserable), who were in clouds of mosquitos while we wore SHORTS and TEE SHIRTS and had little or no problem.

That was in 2007. We've had no long term issues from our use of permetherin, but you must make your own decisions.

[Wise Old Owl]

From the EPA: "In 1972, EPA issued a cancellation order for DDT based on adverse environmental effects of its use, such as those to wildlife, as well as DDT’s potential human health risks. Since then, studies have continued, and a causal relationship between DDT exposure and reproductive effects is suspected. Today, DDT is classified as a probable human carcinogen by U.S. and international authorities. This classification is based on animal studies in which some animals developed liver tumors.

DDT is known to be very persistent in the environment, will accumulate in fatty tissues, and can travel long distances in the upper atmosphere. Since the use of DDT was discontinued in the United States, its concentration in the environment and animals has decreased, but because of its persistence, residues of concern from historical use still remain."

Dogwood quoting from the internet is your decision.. DDT is still used in many countries. The banning of DDT was a political decision for the US government & corporations to sell more exspensive product and is not based in science. Since the ban Rachel Carson single handed killed more african children than any other woman on the planet in terms of millions of children, with her work of fiction. Always keep in mind that there are two sides to every rhetoric.

[Wise Old Owl]

While we need to carefully examine the use of insecticides for their possible benefits it is a FAR STRETCH to say NO ONE has died from DDT! Despite clearly stated uses and directions I still notice MANY folks incorrectly using insecticdes against directions.



There is little or no evidence that anyone "human" has died of DDT 100,000's have died of Tylenol get a grip.

[TIDE-HSV]

When ever I want to know the skinny on a product, I always consult the MSDS's (Material Safety Data Sheet)

http://www.cdms.net/ldat/mp7GD012.pdfI notice this sheet is dated on the method of CPR recommended. Most safety organizations now recommend chest compression only. One study showed that compressions only increased survival chances by 60%. Here is a WebMd link. LINK (http://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/news/20101005/chest-compression-only-cpr-saves-more-lives)

[rocketsocks]

I notice this sheet is dated on the method of CPR recommended. Most safety organizations now recommend chest compression only. One study showed that compressions only increased survival chances by 60%. Here is a WebMd link. LINK (http://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/news/20101005/chest-compression-only-cpr-saves-more-lives)I thought the purpose of compressions was to move "oxygenated blood"...if the returning blood does not come in contact with oxygen via the lungs...then how is that helpful?

I can see if this is just to keep a heart beating...and the person is breathing on there own, but I still don't get the transfer of oxygen thing...definitely requires some looking into....Good find TIDE-HSV I've never heard of this before.

[MuddyWaters]

When ever I want to know the skinny on a product, I always consult the MSDS's (Material Safety Data Sheet)

http://www.cdms.net/ldat/mp7GD012.pdf

Not always a real good idea.

If you consult the MSDS for sodium chloride, you will be wearing a tyvek suit and rubber boots to handle it. You would also not be willing to put it on your food.

Common sense must also be used.

EVERYTHING is a poison to you. The only differences are the quantity required.

Even too much oxygen, or water, will kill you.

[rocketsocks]

I notice this sheet is dated on the method of CPR recommended. Most safety organizations now recommend chest compression only. One study showed that compressions only increased survival chances by 60%. Here is a WebMd link. LINK (http://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/news/20101005/chest-compression-only-cpr-saves-more-lives)Oops tried to link post but it wont post.

http://www.cdms.net/ldat/mp7GD012.pdf


under first aid if in-haled it say's to give person artificial respiration preferably by mouth to mouth...so I guess I'm missing something here???

where are you seeing the part about chest compression only on the MSDS? or are you just referring to the web MD article?

[rocketsocks]

Not always a real good idea.

If you consult the MSDS for sodium chloride, you will be wearing a tyvek suit and rubber boots to handle it. You would also not be willing to put it on your food.

Common sense must also be used.

EVERYTHING is a poison to you. The only differences are the quantity required.

Even too much oxygen, or water, will kill you.I here what your saying...and in my best thinking a person that even knows what a MSDS is and can read and make sense of the information given is like a competent person, and could be trusted spraying there clothes....than again, there are the 1% group that should just sit on the couch and eat oatmeal thru a straw and watch Capt. Kangaroo :D oh yes! they're out there.;)

[TIDE-HSV]

Oops tried to link post but it wont post.

http://www.cdms.net/ldat/mp7GD012.pdf


under first aid if in-haled it say's to give person artificial respiration preferably by mouth to mouth...so I guess I'm missing something here???

where are you seeing the part about chest compression only on the MSDS? or are you just referring to the web MD article?If you do a search, you'll turn up a good bit of material on it. I think it's pretty much a universal recommendation now. I think the theory behind it is that the time taken out for mouth to mouth is wasting time that could be used to continue compressions and keep blood flowing to the brain. The ratio O/CO2 is pretty much immaterial because it's not a long term solution, anyway. The victim's blood has plenty of oxygen for the length of time compressions will be used. Here is the Red Cross page on the technique: LINK (http://www.redcross.org/images/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m6440194_HandsOnlyCPRsheet.pdf) I was once present at a drowning in the Five Falls area of the Chatooga. Two of the raft guides gave her CPR all the way across Lake Tugaloo, where an ambulance was waiting. I paddled up to the raft in my kayak and told them that there was no use in continuing and that her survival chances were zero, but they couldn't bring themselves to quit...

[rocketsocks]

If you do a search, you'll turn up a good bit of material on it. I think it's pretty much a universal recommendation now. I think the theory behind it is that the time taken out for mouth to mouth is wasting time that could be used to continue compressions and keep blood flowing to the brain. The ratio O/CO2 is pretty much immaterial because it's not a long term solution, anyway. The victim's blood has plenty of oxygen for the length of time compressions will be used. Here is the Red Cross page on the technique: LINK (http://www.redcross.org/images/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m6440194_HandsOnlyCPRsheet.pdf) I was once present at a drowning in the Five Falls area of the Chatooga. Two of the raft guides gave her CPR all the way across Lake Tugaloo, where an ambulance was waiting. I paddled up to the raft in my kayak and told them that there was no use in continuing and that her survival chances were zero, but they couldn't bring themselves to quit...Yeah I've never heard this before...will check out the link, thanks TIDE-HSV

[Dogwood]

Guys, your argument is with the EPA who's public professional opinion I posted. Those aren't my words those are directly from the EPA. The EPA thought DDT posed high enough risks that they banned it BOTH FOR THE RISKS TO HUMANS AS WELL AS RISKS TO WILDLIFE AND THE ENVIRONMENT. We seem to be forgetting that and simply looking at risks from a purely human risk stand pt. A bit of personal opinion or philosophy, but humanity, does not exist apart from nature. What we do to wildlife and the environment we also do to ourselves. Eventually, this is born out. You might disagree with that assessment but you would be disagreeing with a great many folks.

[Dogwood]

And PLEASE, let's STOP quoting worldwide Malaria fatalities as if they SIGNIFICANTLY apply to the mainland U.S. It's bald face misleading.

[jeffmeh]

And PLEASE, let's STOP quoting worldwide Malaria fatalities as if they SIGNIFICANTLY apply to the mainland U.S. It's bald face misleading.

Sure, as long as people in the third world don't count, we can ignore the efforts through the UN, WHO, and UNICEF to dismantle the DDT programs following the EPA's 1972 ban in the US. This only reversed steady progress in reducing malaria rates and sentenced millions to death, but these people don't count, right?

[Rasty]

Sure, as long as people in the third world don't count, we can ignore the efforts through the UN, WHO, and UNICEF to dismantle the DDT programs following the EPA's 1972 ban in the US. This only reversed steady progress in reducing malaria rates and sentenced millions to death, but these people don't count, right?

I don't think dogwood meant that. You are correct that we banned the only really effective treatment for mosquitos which carry many diseases around the world without any alternative except hope. I wise lady once told me that "Hope is not a strategy"

[jeffmeh]

I don't think dogwood meant that. You are correct that we banned the only really effective treatment for mosquitos which carry many diseases around the world without any alternative except hope. I wise lady once told me that "Hope is not a strategy"

Perhaps he did not intend that. However, public policy often moves forward based upon "good intentions," without considering unintended consequences. We should evaluate policy based upon outcomes, not intentions, and this policy has resulted in terrible outcomes.

I do not think that one can fairly argue about the health risks of DDT (weak science, based upon the Precautionary Principle) without including the consequences of banning it or crippling programs that employed it (measurable increase in mortality rates from insect-borne disease).

[Rasty]

Perhaps he did not intend that. However, public policy often moves forward based upon "good intentions," without considering unintended consequences. We should evaluate policy based upon outcomes, not intentions, and this policy has resulted in terrible outcomes.

I do not think that one can fairly argue about the health risks of DDT (weak science, based upon the Precautionary Principle) without including the consequences of banning it or crippling programs that employed it (measurable increase in mortality rates from insect-borne disease).

I think he was giving WOO grief about quoting malaria stats in a discussion about Permethrin use on the AT. I know the shelters sometime appear to be refugee camps but it is really just middle-class people on vacation.

I 100% agree that the EPA has made it a habit of following "good intentions" ahead of many things.

[Dogwood]

Jeffmeh, please don't say I said or inferred something I did not. No one said folks in third world countries don't count. Since this is largely an American based website I thought it was misleading to quote worldwide Malaria stats to push the usage of DEET in a country(the U.S.) where Malaria isn't a HUGE issue. You might also note the U.S. LARGELY doesn't have a Malaria problem despite DDT being banned so the assumption/argument that 1 mil worldwide deaths from Malaria occurs simply because DDT has been banned holds little wt.

I also am certainly not fully informed on the epidemiology that might be possible with a likely carcinogen(cancer causing agent) such as DDT. Again, this is the EPA's official opinion of DDT(that it's a likely carcinogen) not mine. Whether or not people have outright died from cancers associated with DDT I do not know so I NEVER SAID ANYTHING to that effect. What I do know, from watching TV political discussions and listening to political radio debates concerning the banning of DDT, is that wildlife was being affected(I think most of us can recall the issue with Bald Eagle eggs as well as DDT affecting fish and probably amphibians). DDT does affect reproductivity in both wildlife and humans as well as quite possibly affecting the endochrine system. I also know that despite what's listed as cause of death on Death Certificates it DOES NOT always take into account what caused the disease that caused the death(s). I think making a hardline assumption that DDT has never caused death is dubious at best. This is why I said it is a far stretch to absolutely assume no one has ever died from DDT.

After following the congressional committee debates that led to the banning of DDT, I do recall political pressure being applied to ban DDT. If it was partly to approve other more expensive and widespread use insecticides, as WOO has stated, I truly do not know. However, I do know that several prominent politicians during that debate felt their was more than enough compelling evidence, gathered through several independent American and international agencies as well as DDT studies conducted by EPA's own scientists, that amply proved the hazards. Despite that evidence existing for several yrs previous to EPA's banning of DDT the EPA still chose not to take action to ban it hence the feeling by some politicians that the EPA was dragging it's feet on banning it and thus the feeling for the need to apply political pressure to get the EPA to take a stand and ban it. Don't make it sound as if the only one bringing up the hazards was Dr. Rachel Carson in Silent Spring.

I also don't like someone using a scare tactics agenda to infer that DEET is the ONLY possible choice for lowering the risks of encephalitis and Lyme Disease. It's a faulty premise to infer that it's a simple A, you slather yourself in DEET, or B, you have a higher risk of contracting these diseases. As other posters have said, there are alternatives to DEET for protection from insect transmitted disease. Like wise, alternatives exist, that some may consider less hazardous, than DDT. As Rasty just stated, I don't buy into stats when they are skewed to support a pro DEET use.

BTW, I'm not hardcore anti DEET, WHEN USED ACCORDING TO THE MANUFACTURER"S DIRECTIONS. This is always important, just as some, including WOO, have stated. I sometimes use it but sparingly and even then I try not to get it directly on my skin. My concern is that DEET or chemicals in it, as well as Permethrin, being absorbed through my skin or entering through mucous membranes or possibly being inhaled or contaminating my food. And. that's just what I feel uncomfortable about in regards to human exposure nevertheless the PROVEN hazards to other life forms. If others feel comfortable slathering themselves in DEET and/or Permethrin making contact with their skin that's their choice. I simply choose not to. I protect myself in ways taking, what I think, a less hazardous approach. As I previously posted, the studies I've seen comparing the effectiveness of DEET, which does offer excellent protection from certain disease carrying insects, are always compared on a one to one basis with another repellant/insecticide. Knowing that I want an as effective insect repellant as DEET I choose to combine two less invasive perhaps less hazardous repellants to gain the same effectiveness as DEET alone. I would like to see more studies conducted along these lines. If you care to know what I do in regard to insect repellants while hiking read my previous posts.

Maybe, I'm over compensating but when my health is concerned I've learned to take a proactive approach. I've learned to be skeptical when I'm told by a big corporation or by Gov't entities, especially when BIG money and influence is involved, that something is so benign. I've been lied to and misled in the past by chemical companies and Gov't agencies who are supposed to protect the public and there's no reason to believe they still aren't doing it.

But PLEASE, while I'm enjoying and learning from this give and take discussion on DDT and DEET, let's try to stay on the OP's question. We've gone way off topic on a tangent that really isn't on topic. If someone wants to bring something more to my attention about DDT or DEET I would happily enjoy doing it through PMs or an Email not by further hijacking the OP's thread.

[perdidochas]

So where is the documented evidence of a human death caused by DDT? Again, the dosage makes the poison. Even granting that DDT was overused (though much of the Rachel Carson narrative has been discredited at this point), with a million deaths per year from malaria, the wholesale ban has led to many more deaths than one could possibly attribute to DDT.

The problem with DDT is that it kills birds of prey. Part of the reason for the resurgence of ospreys and bald eagles is the banning of DDT in the U.S.