View Full Version : Fire rings
Game Warden
06-29-2013, 18:06
As someone who works on the trail, I implore you: don't build fire rings. They are an eyesore that last for decades; they morph into garbage dumps. One nice campsite might sprout a fire ring, but many others will pop up nearby. Many hikers don't even build fires anymore; I don't except in the winter. A fire ring only blocks horizontal heat radiation.If you feel you must build a fire ring, break it down when you leave
sir limpsalot
06-29-2013, 20:27
I like them 'cause they give you a sign that there is a good campsite.
shelterbuilder
06-29-2013, 22:16
Yikes, there's something "a bit off" if you need to see a fire ring to tell if a place is a good campsite.
illabelle
06-29-2013, 23:47
Yikes, there's something "a bit off" if you need to see a fire ring to tell if a place is a good campsite.
I think I understand what limpsalot might be getting at. Many areas might have a good campsite, but you don't know until you investigate. But if you see a fire ring, it confirms that there's at least a usable campsite nearby, and maybe even water. You can go ahead and throw your pack off and start looking around.
There's something about the things that are made by the human hand that can be welcoming or comforting when you're in a natural environment, far away from your normal address. After miles of woods and hills, a shelter says "Home." A bench (or even a sawed log says "Chair" a little differently than an entirely untouched log or a rock. A fire ring says "Hearth." Even the path itself, marked with manmade white blazes and carved into the soil by thousands of human feet, says "Companionship." Every time we see the things we made, we know we're not lost or alone in the world.
Of course sometimes we want to get lost, to be away from other people. That's why some of us go to the woods in the first place. Seeing a fire ring, or a pile of trash, or a sign every 50 yards would kill the experience. Likewise, arriving at a great campsite only to discover that it has morphed into a trash dump is a sad way to end the day.
Every other species is free to leave their mark upon the earth. I don't see why humans should be any different.
You don't like fire rings. The people that build them obviously do. Why should your dislike for them trump those who do like them?
Government bureaucrats are kind of the same way...once one sprouts up pretty soon there are many others nearby.
I was taught that if there is already one fire ring, use that one. The heat from the fire "sterilizes" the ground underneath and prevents stuff from growing for a long time (as opposed to a forest fire that sort of sweeps across the surface rather quickly). So - a ring of stones tells people "this is where the fire should go", reducing impacts over a broad area, and limiting heat damage to one spot.
To me - the effort of building and maintaining a fire, then extinguishing it and making it safe is too much to go through when I'm solo. I cook over my Fancy Feast stove... thats all the fire I really need, although a nice fire in the winter is nice for a group.
treesloth
06-30-2013, 09:05
Every other species is free to leave their mark upon the earth. I don't see why humans should be any different.
Hmm. Would you have that same attitude if you went away on vacation, and then came back to find that someone had camped out on your property and left a fire ring on it? You'd likely be pretty pissed off, I know I would. This thread is really more about LNT than anything else. Kinda sad that you don't seem to jive with it.
Pedaling Fool
06-30-2013, 09:37
Not a good analogy. Fire rings do not cause environmental damage of any significance, hint, you gotta look at the big picture. This is just some meme that people keep repeating. Can someone quantify how many fire rings are out there?
Old Hiker
06-30-2013, 09:53
Not a good analogy. Fire rings do not cause environmental damage of any significance, hint, you gotta look at the big picture. This is just some meme that people keep repeating. Can someone quantify how many fire rings are out there?
Somewhat agree, but once a fire ring or two is started, then more and more people stop to take advantage of them and start to build more. Trees get pruned back severely for fire wood, trash builds up, vegetation is trampled and killed, bare spots start, erosion, etc. Broken window effect.
I'd look for an existing ring and use it sparingly, if I wanted a fire. Too many of the fires I saw were too big, too wasteful and really not needed. One of the best Scout campfires I was ever at was at Brownsea Island, UK, where the Ranger just put 2 Coleman lanterns on a cairn of rocks for us.
treesloth
06-30-2013, 10:13
You kinda lost me when you said:
Not a good analogy. Fire rings do not cause environmental damage of any significance, hint, you gotta look at the big picture.
Looking at it that way, neither does a big steaming pile of someone's improperly-disposed of morning glory. But we know no one wants to see THAT. You've paid your dues out there PF, no disrespect.. but "LNT wherever applicable" is a meme we can all benefit from.
Dr. Professor
06-30-2013, 12:17
In general, I'm in the camp of:
1) Feel free to use one that's already there.
2) If there's none there and you want one -- (a) build one, but (b) break it down later, and (c) leave no trace. I don't buy the argument that nothing will ever grow there again. Nature will return.
If everyone built and left one every time they camped, the trails would be an endless string of fire rings.
Pedaling Fool
06-30-2013, 12:17
First off, can we all agree that piles of sh1t are just disgusting and no one wants to see them? Why some people find it funny Sh**ting in the middle of the trail, I don’t know?
That aside, what I’m talking about is the environment in the big picture, it’s irrelevant. When a gopher digs holes and tunnels they are removing soil that allowed living things to live and grow. Far more soil is being displaced by gophers and other ground-dwelling animals than all of the fire rings along the AT. I also don't see the trampling effect as a big deal. Human's footprint issues has nothing to do with camping. Agriculture is our big impact and any camping issues doesn't even compare in the slightest.
WRT the eye-sore issue, that’s a subjective thing. Personally I don’t find them to be an eye sore, but I’m not arguing that point, because it’s so subjective. If you find it an eye sore, well sorry, but it’s not a significant environmental issue, that’s all I’m saying. I do find weedy/shrubbery areas an eye sore, no kidding. But I suspect no one really cares about my eye-sore issues.
treesloth
06-30-2013, 12:47
WRT the eye-sore issue, that’s a subjective thing. Personally I don’t find them to be an eye sore, but I’m not arguing that point, because it’s so subjective. If you find it an eye sore, well sorry, but it’s not a significant environmental issue, that’s all I’m saying. I do find weedy/shrubbery areas an eye sore, no kidding. But I suspect no one really cares about my eye-sore issues.
Not trying to split hairs here, but I personally don't find any tenent of LNT to really be subjective. I'm talking about the land that has not yet been exploited, and hopefully never will be (i.e. the whole AT corridor). We can agree to disagree on this one though.
You ever noticed those round flat areas along the trail, about 25' in diameter that have been dug into the side of a hill with black soil? They make great campsites because they're flat. Those sites are called Collier Pits and were used to make charcoal for the iron furnaces in the late 1800's. It would take one acre of hardwood, turned into charcoal per day to run an iron furnace. They are all along the AT and are easily recognized once you know what to look for.
The AT corridor has been exploited by humans long before there was an AT.
Slo-go'en
06-30-2013, 14:57
The purpose of a stone fire ring is to contain the fire. If you feel a need to build a fire, please do it safely inside a fire ring.
Along the AT, there are more then enough existing fire rings that there really shouldn't be any need to make new ones.
Game Warden
06-30-2013, 17:05
I'm the guy who actually has to come along and break down multiple fire rings at popular campsites. I'm the guy who puts on the work gloves and deconstructs about a dozen fire rings around every shelter, throwing the stones back into the woods. I implore you: please don't build fire rings.
Game Warden
06-30-2013, 17:31
And more, Bronk, I'm the government bureaucrat who planted all those white pine trees around the shelter, the one who investigates shelter vandalism, squatters, crazy people living in the woods along the trail, gives rides to injured hikers, does search and rescue for lost hikers, etc. Just do me a favor and break down the fire ring. That's all I ask.
shelterbuilder
06-30-2013, 17:53
And more, Bronk, I'm the government bureaucrat who planted all those white pine trees around the shelter, the one who investigates shelter vandalism, squatters, crazy people living in the woods along the trail, gives rides to injured hikers, does search and rescue for lost hikers, etc. Just do me a favor and break down the fire ring. That's all I ask. And that's NOT too much to ask! There are some sections of the footpath where I have seen (and dismantled) fire rings every 200-300 feet, and it makes me wonder sometimes if we are going forward or backward with LNT. NPS is going crazy trying to stop the newest craze: thru-hiker graffiti in shelters. I'm going nuts trying to figure out why ANYONE would use a hatchet to carve firewood off of the structure of a shelter (doing unrepairable structural damage in the process). GW, a suggestion: throw the stones from the fire rings farther down the slope, so that it's too tough to drag them back up! (You KNOW that they won't stop building them until all of the rocks are gone....)
...Fire rings do not cause environmental damage of any significance, hint, you gotta look at the big picture...
Neither does graffiti or pooping in the middle of a campsite, they all amount to the same thing to me.
Most people go into the woods to get away from the creations of man, others should have some respect for that and build their fire rings in their own backyard.
I was out in GW National Forrest a couple of weeks ago and someone built a fire ring right in the middle of a side trail (and I mean right in the middle of the trail) about a 100 feet from a campsite that already had a fire ring, ***?
My point is which one is the jerk, the one who builds the fire ring or the one who dismantles it? You could easily argue that the one dismantling it is destroying the work of the person who built it. What's really funny to me is the same people who build and maintain shelters and decry the graffiti and damage endorse someone else destroying fire rings. What if I suggested that people dismantle shelters when they see them? They argue leave no trace but then say to throw all the rocks down the hill so there aren't any rocks left at the site to build fire rings. Its all very funny to me. If I went away on vacation and someone built a fire ring in my yard that would be trespassing on private property...we are talking about public property here that belongs to everyone. Fire rings do not cause permanent or even long term damage...the soil returns to normal within 3 years, usually less. Most of the people that get involved in discussions on these kinds of topics are more than just a little hypocritical.
Sounds to like the greater eyesore may be the shelters themselves. Everything that seems to take place in or around them has a bit of nasty associated. I cant imagine spending a night in one. That said, I guess by having them, you contain the nasty to specific spots rather than spread all over. But, without shelters, im guessing many of the ones that would have to take the time but dont want to setup and breakdown their own tent or hammock, would probably stay home. Im willing to bet that that those that tote their own shelter tend to be more concerned about LNT than those that count on someone else havin fun done it for them.
In my opinion, shelters are much more of a blight then fire rings. Why must we make it easier for people to hike? If they cant put their effort in, why should someone else?
Lone Wolf
07-01-2013, 07:51
Sounds to like the greater eyesore may be the shelters themselves.
In my opinion, shelters are much more of a blight then fire rings.
hey, i agree :)
Pedaling Fool
07-01-2013, 08:26
Neither does graffiti or pooping in the middle of a campsite, they all amount to the same thing to me.
Most people go into the woods to get away from the creations of man, others should have some respect for that and build their fire rings in their own backyard.
I was out in GW National Forrest a couple of weeks ago and someone built a fire ring right in the middle of a side trail (and I mean right in the middle of the trail) about a 100 feet from a campsite that already had a fire ring, ***?It seems to me that most people go into the woods to participate in large trail feeds, i.e. to bring civilization into the woods.
I don't see fire rings as intrusive as some here seem to think they are, they are no more intrusive than all the signs and blazes out there, and yes the shelters.
But like I said before, my posting has nothing to do on "the look" of fire rings, all I was saying that they are not an environmental issue. BTW, did I mention that I find Trail Feeds an eye sore - and yes I've seen them on the trails. Fire rings don't even compare in the least. I can vaguely remember seeing them here and there and I'm sure I've forgotten most, but I clearly remember seeing (and can recall where) I've seen trail feeds. But again, I don't think any one cares about my eye-sore issues. I'm just a minority here.
FWIW, I don't build my fire rings near a shelter, nor on a trail.
hikerboy57
07-01-2013, 08:28
Sounds to like the greater eyesore may be the shelters themselves. Everything that seems to take place in or around them has a bit of nasty associated. I cant imagine spending a night in one. That said, I guess by having them, you contain the nasty to specific spots rather than spread all over. But, without shelters, im guessing many of the ones that would have to take the time but dont want to setup and breakdown their own tent or hammock, would probably stay home. Im willing to bet that that those that tote their own shelter tend to be more concerned about LNT than those that count on someone else havin fun done it for them.
In my opinion, shelters are much more of a blight then fire rings. Why must we make it easier for people to hike? If they cant put their effort in, why should someone else?
the shelters arent there for people, rather they give mice a home and food source
the shelters arent there for people, rather they give mice a home and food source
If you build it, they will come. Of mice...and men.
The efforts by those that keep the trail clear and maintained should be appreciated. IMO, going beyond that to make it even more accomodating invites the types of discussions we are having here.
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hikerboy57
07-01-2013, 08:53
If you build it, they will come. Of mice...and men.
The efforts by those that keep the trail clear and maintained should be appreciated. IMO, going beyond that to make it even more accomodating invites the types of discussions we are having here.
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i do have to give kudos to our trail maintainers and others, like the cleaner, who cleaned several shelters with bleach when the nor thing was running rampant this spring.
the mice appreciate the efforts as well.
Rain Man
07-01-2013, 08:55
And more, Bronk, I'm the government bureaucrat who planted all those white pine trees around the shelter, the one who investigates shelter vandalism, squatters, crazy people living in the woods along the trail, gives rides to injured hikers, does search and rescue for lost hikers, etc. Just do me a favor and break down the fire ring. That's all I ask.
Perhaps we'll just have to forgive Bronk as he appears to be merely parroting the faddish "meme" of demonizing anything "government" with his totally gratuitous "bureaucrat" jab. Plainly, this must be taken into account as his is a subjective argument. Apparently, the AT should be every man for himself anarchy with no one performing any work, lest they be "government bureaucrats" to be disdained.
Rain:sunMan
.
When I see fire rings that shouldn't exist, sometimes I restore the area, sometimes I take a dump in the middle of the fire ring.
hikerboy57
07-01-2013, 13:09
Every other species is free to leave their mark upon the earth. I don't see why humans should be any different.
You don't like fire rings. The people that build them obviously do. Why should your dislike for them trump those who do like them?
Government bureaucrats are kind of the same way...once one sprouts up pretty soon there are many others nearby.
it would be nice to try to preserve some areas that humans havent left their mark on the earth
I'm surprised that no one has touched on the fact that the fires themselves are destructive. Burning every scrap of available wood within your chosen search radius is destroying the future of the forest. I've never built a fire ring because I've never built a fire outside of a commercial campground. I see no reason to build a fire while backpacking outside of a lifesaving situation.
I don't build fires when backpacking alone but small groups do enjoy them, was watching a TV show recently that said language evolved to transmit information around a campfire.
If the fire ring is off but not too far off the trail, in a location that serves as a reasonable and legal camp and fire site, it seems to me more an LNT violation to scatter the ring in futile attempts to disperse the use.
That's not to excuse seven rings within sight of each other around a shelter, but rings every mile or so discreetly placed or allowed to remain beside a heavily used Eastern woods trail might not be too many.
Page 6 of http://www.hike-mst.org/images/pdfs/overseers.pdf pithily explains a fire ring conundrum, admitting that document applies specifically to a trail that suffers more from under-use than overuse.
FarmerChef
07-01-2013, 14:13
Not that my opinion really matters much on the interweb in this context but I'll put it out there anyway for the sheer fun of it :D
To me it is more LNT to leave an existing fire ring in an established campsite than it is to take it and disperse of the carbon coated rocks and bits of charcoal (forgetting for a moment about the trash in the pit as well). It is also not LNT in my book to have several fire rings scattered around a localized area just because the "main" ring wasn't being shared or not to someone's preference, not close enough, etc., etc., etc. I have come across campfire sites all over the trail that no fire ring and are just mounds of charcoal and small bits of tinfoil and half-burnt trash.
Cooking for 5 (soon 6) hauling the kind of fuel it takes to provide for them and needed to heat the size of pots we're using is unnecessarily heavy when a small twig fire can be safely (and legally - rules permitting) built within the confines of a fire ring. I do not need a large bonfire to roast my marshmallows and melt my boots on, though a modest fire in the winter is a sight for sore eyes and cold fingers and toes. I also enjoy the camaraderie of fellow hikers around a campfire as we enjoy it's warmth and light and share stories together.
When I've had to build a fire to cook and there was no ring, I've scooped away the topsoil, gathered a few stones to keep the fire where it belonged and then put them all back where I found them. If you can spot where I've had an LNT fire then I've done something wrong. Soil preserved, I expect that life will return anew to the patch of ground where my small fire was. :end personal opinions ;)
Made two of them disappear today at POGO campsite in MD.
daddytwosticks
07-01-2013, 16:14
When I see fire rings that shouldn't exist, sometimes I restore the area, sometimes I take a dump in the middle of the fire ring. That's disgusting! Everyone knows you should pee into all fire rings to ensure any remnants of a fire are DEAD out! :)
Pedaling Fool
07-01-2013, 16:15
I'm surprised that no one has touched on the fact that the fires themselves are destructive. Burning every scrap of available wood within your chosen search radius is destroying the future of the forest. I've never built a fire ring because I've never built a fire outside of a commercial campground. I see no reason to build a fire while backpacking outside of a lifesaving situation.
No one is going to burn every scrap of wood. Trees are constantly dropping sticks/branches, many of which are passed over by people looking for firewood; not to mention wood that is already well-rotted is not taken as firewood. For people to use up every scrap of wood everyone would have to burn fires for cooking and then it's only going to be in a very narrow corridor. But that ain't going to happen.
All nature-loving hikers and their modern way of getting back to nature, love their fossil fuels too much. Cooking on a fire is too natural and inconvenient. But some of them say it's because they care about the environment, but when back in civilization complain about fossil fuels.
:confused:
BTW, wood ash provides nutrients for plant life. That's the thing about nature, it's difficult to create an event that amounts to total destruction. When the sun burns out I guess that'll be total destruction. But even that is debatable.
No one is going to burn every scrap of wood. Trees are constantly dropping sticks/branches, many of which are passed over by people looking for firewood; not to mention wood that is already well-rotted is not taken as firewood. For people to use up every scrap of wood everyone would have to burn fires for cooking and then it's only going to be in a very narrow corridor. But that ain't going to happen.
All nature-loving hikers and their modern way of getting back to nature, love their fossil fuels too much. Cooking on a fire is too natural and inconvenient. But some of them say it's because they care about the environment, but when back in civilization complain about fossil fuels.
:confused:
BTW, wood ash provides nutrients for plant life. That's the thing about nature, it's difficult to create an event that amounts to total destruction. When the sun burns out I guess that'll be total destruction. But even that is debatable.
You guys on the AT don't care because you get so much rain and the growing season is long enough that there's abundant wood. In the Sierras, that's not quite the case. There are plenty of places where it's difficult to find wood on the ground because it's all been burned. Nevermind that fires are banned there.
Pedaling Fool
07-01-2013, 16:41
I don't care about the Sierras. Thank God for fossil fuels so you guys in the Sierras can have a hot meal :)
T.S.Kobzol
07-01-2013, 16:46
I have yet to see animals producing plastics that pollute the environment. If humans only crapped in the woods and produced no other byproduct the earth would be a much happier place.
it would be nice to try to preserve some areas that humans havent left their mark on the earth
hikerboy57
07-01-2013, 16:52
I have yet to see animals producing plastics that pollute the environment. If humans only crapped in the woods and produced no other byproduct the earth would be a much happier place.
agreed........
I have yet to see animals producing plastics that pollute the environment. If humans only crapped in the woods and produced no other byproduct the earth would be a much happier place.
Skin and hair is okay too. Fire rings in heavily impacted areas, under low trees, in places prone to high winds, and any fire ring with unburned trash is subject to restoration or defilement. Not all fire rings are bad, but many are.
T.S.Kobzol
07-01-2013, 17:17
The group I used to backpack with when I was a kid (between age 6 and 16) used to dismantle fire ring every time we were done on sunday but not thrown the rocks out. We placed them the burned side down so that the next group could choose to reassemble the fire ring if they wanted to. We would also sweep the burned area clean, spread the ashes and coals over widespread area. The idea was to leave as little visible impact on the camping spot as possible.
Skin and hair is okay too. Fire rings in heavily impacted areas, under low trees, in places prone to high winds, and any fire ring with unburned trash is subject to restoration or defilement. Not all fire rings are bad, but many are.
Game Warden
07-01-2013, 17:55
Let me try a different approach: The AT crosses a lot on non-NPS, non-ATC land where I work. Not everybody loves the AT. Many people want it NIMBY. If you want to affirm a sense of entitlement, keep building fire rings. If you want to be a good guest on someone else's land, just please break them down when you are done. Thank you, from a friend of the trail.
Sarcasm the elf
07-01-2013, 18:34
I can recall at least two substantial brush/forest fires in recent years in the vicinity of Bear Mtn. Connecticut (a no fire zone) that were due to people who just had to have a campfire. I doubt the locals who paid the substantial costs of fighting those blazes thought that the campfires that caused them were no big deal.
I have no respect for anyone who calls trail maintainers "jerks". There would be no trail without maintainers.
Sarcasm the elf
07-01-2013, 18:46
The other problem with people making new fire pits is that nobody seems to put them in a safe place. The way I was taught (yes, in Boy Scouts) was that a campfire should only be built in an area that had nothing flammable within 6-10 feet of it on the ground and that had no tree cover above it to catch fire. Roughly zero percent of the makeshift fire rings I've seen on the trail actually fit this criteria.
If you decide to make a new fire ring and leave it at a site, just assume that at some point, some idiot is going to come by and build a much larger fire in it than you had ever intended, this same idiot probably won't fully extinguish the fire when they leave either. Unless you really put the fire ring in a place that has nothing flammable above or around it, please get rid of it when you're done.
I personally like the fire but I have my moral limitations when it comes to fir making when hiking a trail. I never ever make a new fire ring because it is an eye sore to me but I can and would enjoy sitting in a bonfire when I am done hiking and chat with some other hikers. I may not frown upon hikers who are using the fire ring which has been built before.
Indian( first nation) have a saying that says : White people make huge fire and sit far away when Indians make small fire and sit close to it. I don't make big fire, I make a small fire if needed and dismantle it when done if ever I make a fire.
Actually I enjoy LNT . I enjoy leaving my camping site knowing that nobody after me will recognize somebody camped there before. I doubt even a tracker can track me easily after leaving my campsite. I do not expect everyone to do the same. I just enjoy leaving no trace. We as human beings have left enough trace already to establish our dominance. For me enough is enough.
Wise Old Owl
07-02-2013, 00:17
Well I read the thread but honest GameWarden, you are preaching to the choir here. I get it-honest I do, but the low information hikers and Coleman camping enthusiasts will continue to do what they want.
Hense we have trail runners in some places.
rocketsocks
07-02-2013, 01:45
On a hike from Lehigh Gap to DWG in PA this spring, I saw numerous fire rings over three days and 36 miles...so many in fact that commented on it to my hiking partner "Rain Man" and remember saying that in NJ this would not be the case, and that each summer there are fire bands.
Then on a hike from Culvers Gap to DWG, NJ around the same distance and three days, I could count those fire rings on one hand.
I don't think people become less of fire builders when they hit NJ, I think the rules are either not in place in PA, or are not being enforced with citation...though I'm only speculating here.
In the very short time I've been hiking I have built zero fires, and don't have plans to unless it was winter, or it was cold, and then t would only be a small warming fire....really don't want to deal with a fire, the time to collect wood, stoke, snuff out and disperse.
They're just too much work at the end of a long day, especially when another long day is just around the corner.
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Every other species is free to leave their mark upon the earth. I don't see why humans should be any different.
You don't like fire rings. The people that build them obviously do. Why should your dislike for them trump those who do like them?
Government bureaucrats are kind of the same way...once one sprouts up pretty soon there are many others nearby.
Some folks just simply don't get it. LNT.
FlyPaper
07-02-2013, 12:20
I think the OP brings up a good point. Something I haven't thought of before, but seems true based on my observations.
I don't understand it, but there are a certain percentage of hikers who'll not throw trash in the woods, but will apparently without guilt throw metal cans and all sorts of other non combustible objects into a fire pit and feel no different than if they had thrown them in a trash can. I really don't get that mentality.
Of all the other pros and cons, the fact that it will ease temptation for some to litter is the strongest argument for not building fire rings.
Wise Old Owl
07-02-2013, 12:31
Some folks just simply don't get it. LNT.
uh ya you are right - some of them are college students....but I am not here to argue. Can we have quality State Park Fire-rings?
22323
Don't forget the designated areas on a treeless ridge!
uh ya you are right - some of them are college students....but I am not here to argue. Can we have quality State Park Fire-rings?
22323
Don't forget the designated areas on a treeless ridge!
Somehow, they dont strike me as your avg AT thrus. ;-)
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Alex Mills
07-02-2013, 15:06
If you want to get technical, the whole AT is against LNT. It's a gash through the middle of the Appalachian Forrest that millions of hikers come stomping through making it impossible for nature to claim land the trail is built on which is rightfully hers. Not to mention the trail workers who come through cutting the trail in the first place. I wonder how many trees where cut down to build the trail in the first place. I'm not against the trail but I'm just saying that going by a lot of you guy's standards the trail is a negative thing as well.
hikerboy57
07-02-2013, 15:16
If you want to get technical, the whole AT is against LNT. It's a gash through the middle of the Appalachian Forrest that millions of hikers come stomping through making it impossible for nature to claim land the trail is built on which is rightfully hers. Not to mention the trail workers who come through cutting the trail in the first place. I wonder how many trees where cut down to build the trail in the first place. I'm not against the trail but I'm just saying that going by a lot of you guy's standards the trail is a negative thing as well.
not really. lnt suggests using existing trails and staying on them, not widening them, to minimize impact top the surrounding areas.http://lnt.org/learn/7-principles
Alex Mills
07-02-2013, 15:23
Maybe the trails shouldn't be there in the first place then. They aren't a part of nature they are man made.
hikerboy57
07-02-2013, 15:39
Maybe the trails shouldn't be there in the first place then. They aren't a part of nature they are man made.
a bit late for that. and there are a few other signs of man on the planet.maybe we shouldnt be here?
most trails originated as game trails. pioneeers and trailblazers eventually widened these, strung them together to create the trail systems we have today.
here's a question. are humans part of nature, or are we manmade?
http://lnt.org/learn/7-principles
daddytwosticks
07-02-2013, 15:52
This reminds me of the arguement here several years ago about a hiker wanting to gather and pile leaves under his tent for comfort/insulation. Several members here went ballistic, claiming it wasn't LNT. Seriously. :)
treesloth
07-02-2013, 16:20
This reminds me of the arguement here several years ago about a hiker wanting to gather and pile leaves under his tent for comfort/insulation. Several members here went ballistic, claiming it wasn't LNT. Seriously. :)
That's good stuff. LNT Nazis. These are some of the same people that pack out their own human waste, I'm sure. Goes to show there are always extremes for any concept. :)
hikerboy57
07-02-2013, 16:39
That's good stuff. LNT Nazis. These are some of the same people that pack out their own human waste, I'm sure. Goes to show there are always extremes for any concept. :)
agreed. extremism in any form is dangerous. i am no purist, by the way,although i do observe the basic tenets of lnt.
in otherwords, im almost a grownup. ive learned to clean up after myself.
Lone Wolf
07-02-2013, 16:46
LNT on the AT is a joke
hikerboy57
07-02-2013, 16:48
LNT on the AT is a joke
yup. saw plenty of trace this spring
Alex Mills
07-02-2013, 21:54
I really like that question. I think we are part of nature but that we are so far from nature in these modern times. If you go back many many years when man wasn't scarring the world so much with it's constant desire to make life easier and more comfortable then fire rings were a norm and weren't a problem. I don't the issue is the fire ring itself. I think the issue is the concentration of people trying to get back to nature. People think that you have to hike a trail in the woods to get back to nature. With everyone hiking the AT there is a high concentration of people in one part of our forests and if everyone builds a fire ring then we have serious problems. I don't see a problem with a fire ring. As far as I am concerned it is a part of nature. My issue comes with not cleaning it up after yourself. You can build a small fire that is easily put out and cleaned up after you are done. Most people just don't.
Alex Mills
07-02-2013, 21:55
Previous response was in response to Hikerboy57 post about are humans nature.
shelterbuilder
07-02-2013, 22:03
...
I don't understand it, but there are a certain percentage of hikers who'll not throw trash in the woods, but will apparently without guilt throw metal cans and all sorts of other non combustible objects into a fire pit and feel no different than if they had thrown them in a trash can....
Most folks that I've observed doing this have either forgotten or never learned that the original reason for putting cans into the fire was to burn off the food so that the cans wouldn't attract bears and other critters. (This was back in the day when it was common practice to bury the cans afterward.) But I think that you may have something there: fire rings = trash cans! What a wonderful LNT concept. Almost as good as throwing your trash into the privy....
slow mind
07-02-2013, 22:08
Compared to what I put in a privy every morning trash is like a fresh biscuit.
Sarcasm the elf
07-02-2013, 22:17
Compared to what I put in a privy every morning trash is like a fresh biscuit.
That fresh biscuit decomposes. Most trash doesn't and then has to be pulled out of the pile by a maintainer six months later when they're "turning" the waste :eek::(
(Mercifully I'm not speaking from experience)
Mr. Bumpy
07-07-2013, 23:02
On Saturday I came across a forest service employee and two volunteers who were removing fire rings from forest service land. The contempt for a "fire ring" was not masked in the young woman's tone. At the time I thought, "Each to his own. They are just following FS directives." On Sunday as I was plodding down a badly eroded trail that was more like an active stream, all I could think about was what a waste of time and resources sending out crews to destroy fire rings when a few much needed water bars and breaks would do some actual good for a trail and make the hike safer and more enjoyable than the muddy creek stomp I had today.
I actually enjoy building fire rings. Matter of fact I build at least 6 to 8 a trip. I camp in very remote areas, unused by any other human being and consider it to be my "I was here" statement. It also is a landmark for my next trip. If you do not like it, then that is your problem. I will do what I please when I please, and you cannot stop me unless you want it to get physical which will not work out so well for you. Yeah, I am that guy. Come get some chumps:)
Are you the same guy who disposes of his old tires and refrigerators in the woods. Yeah....I've seen your statements around.
Aches & Pains
07-08-2013, 09:56
Education and respect ... unfortunately, too little of both
perdidochas
07-08-2013, 11:02
If you want to get technical, the whole AT is against LNT. It's a gash through the middle of the Appalachian Forrest that millions of hikers come stomping through making it impossible for nature to claim land the trail is built on which is rightfully hers. Not to mention the trail workers who come through cutting the trail in the first place. I wonder how many trees where cut down to build the trail in the first place. I'm not against the trail but I'm just saying that going by a lot of you guy's standards the trail is a negative thing as well.
The AT is a sacrificial area per LNT. The problem with fire rings is 1) fires are too often used as garbage cans (which isn't a big deal with food/paper, but is when it comes to plastic) and 2) they proliferate.
This is getting dangerously close to becoming a NO fires allowed in the backcountry discussion, of which I've seen a number of on other venues.
I prefer to use an existing fire ring whenever possible, however, I am also a big fan of smaller fires instead of larger ones. If I make a fire ring on my own, I keep it small and tear it down the next morning ..... but I rarely build one when solo, I'd rather be swinging in my hammock reading a good book. I don't understand why this is even an argument .... if you are camping where there is an established fire ring, then use it. If not, return the land to as close to natural as possilble.
rocketsocks
07-08-2013, 14:07
I wouldn't even build a fire ring for a small warming fire...it's not needed.
I plan on carrying an alcohol stove for cooking, but I also like the idea of a campfire. Say you roll up on this sweet camping spot, and it already has a fire ring. Are you suggesting dismantling it before you leave?
I'll be having a big fire this weekend on the Roan. Can't wait. And if someone threw all the rocks for the fire ring down the hill, then I'll have a fire without a rock ring. .... Please quit throwing all the rocks away!
chiefiepoo
07-10-2013, 10:06
Well, in time we got over trenching around the tent. Multiple fire rings at the same site seems kind of one too many. I'm with the too tired to chase scarce wood for a fire because I have a long day tomorrow. Have been known to read a book by candlelight and chew a good cigar for evening relaxation.
So let me summarize the anti fire circle logic:
If the rocks are in a circle, then they must be dispersed. If the same rocks are in a pile, leave them be.
Sarcasm the elf
07-11-2013, 19:17
Pretty much...
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/988253_544172682286756_1612439492_n.jpg
Nasty Dog Virus
07-11-2013, 21:57
Let me try a different approach: The AT crosses a lot on non-NPS, non-ATC land where I work. Not everybody loves the AT. Many people want it NIMBY. If you want to affirm a sense of entitlement, keep building fire rings. If you want to be a good guest on someone else's land, just please break them down when you are done. Thank you, from a friend of the trail.
are you a game warden in Stony Valley (SGL 211)? if so, I could show you 100+ fire rings in one day. Hell, there's 30 between Rausch Gap and Cold Spring...
Game Warden
07-18-2013, 19:28
I deal with a lot of destructive and illegal campers--chopping down trees, smashing beer bottles, graffiti, etc. Until I posted this thread, I thought AT hikers were a different breed than the slobs I deal with. After reading some of these comments now I understand that the AT community reflects the entire spectrum of humanity.
LNT on the AT is NOT a joke. LNT and protection of our wild environs is always paramount - - I practice LNT, teach LNT and pass it along - - sorry for the folks that prefer to hurt the areas that they love but they are "on the outside" in terms of backcountry ethics as accepted about the serious outdoor community which includes avid hikers, climbers, whitewater boaters, etc. - the AT is laxer than some but only those who just don't know any better actually construct new fire rings for all of the reasons mentioned. I almost never build campfires when backpacking - they are usually especially unnecessary in the summer. I will suggest that tearing down fire rings just prompts more ring building - - it's probably better if you want to help a campsite with several existing fire rings to identify the "best one" and bolster it using rock components from the others (that you remove). If I build a fire backpacking it is either in an established and well used ring (almost always in the very cold) or I build a little warming fire without a ring - - in this instance, I go through great detail in to insure that others never had a clue a fire (or my presence camping) was ever there - - therein lies the skill and the craft. Any idiot can light a fire.
I deal with a lot of destructive and illegal campers--chopping down trees, smashing beer bottles, graffiti, etc. Until I posted this thread, I thought AT hikers were a different breed than the slobs I deal with. After reading some of these comments now I understand that the AT community reflects the entire spectrum of humanity.
yep - - it does but you keep fighting the good fight - many serious, and committed members of our community (not all on this site either) are behind your efforts 100% - - so thanks.
Pretty much...
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/988253_544172682286756_1612439492_n.jpg
it would be cool if we just had a "like" button like facebook.
Lone Wolf
07-18-2013, 20:09
LNT on the AT is NOT a joke.
it most certainly is, especially between february and may when all the wannabes hit the trail in georgia having zero experience walkin' in the woods. build it (shelters), they will come and trash the holy heck outa the woods. the ATC needs to discourage through hiking to couch taters that have never hiked.
Pedaling Fool
07-18-2013, 20:17
Any idiot can light a fire.Not in the rain, I can:banana
Pedaling Fool
07-18-2013, 20:18
BTW, Papa D, any idiot can walk;)
HikerMom58
07-18-2013, 20:20
Not in the rain, I can:banana
OK... that's it- I'm going hiking with you!!:banana Can you keep bear far far away too???
HikerMom58
07-18-2013, 20:24
LNT on the AT is NOT a joke. LNT and protection of our wild environs is always paramount - - I practice LNT, teach LNT and pass it along - - sorry for the folks that prefer to hurt the areas that they love but they are "on the outside" in terms of backcountry ethics as accepted about the serious outdoor community which includes avid hikers, climbers, whitewater boaters, etc. - the AT is laxer than some but only those who just don't know any better actually construct new fire rings for all of the reasons mentioned. I almost never build campfires when backpacking - they are usually especially unnecessary in the summer. I will suggest that tearing down fire rings just prompts more ring building - - it's probably better if you want to help a campsite with several existing fire rings to identify the "best one" and bolster it using rock components from the others (that you remove). If I build a fire backpacking it is either in an established and well used ring (almost always in the very cold) or I build a little warming fire without a ring - - in this instance, I go through great detail in to insure that others never had a clue a fire (or my presence camping) was ever there - - therein lies the skill and the craft. Any idiot can light a fire.
I'm totally serious Papa D... first night on the trail this year in May. I heard a section hiker in a shelter say that LNT was a joke... his exact words! He backed up his words by throwing his onion peelings into the fire ring. (they were still there when we left the next morning) I pretended like I didn't hear him..he looked kinda rough- if you know what I mean.:eek:
Wise Old Owl
07-18-2013, 20:43
.........................
Game Warden
07-18-2013, 22:01
Eastern US forests can not be manged like the Australian outback. Different habitats, and different human impacts.
Nasty Dog Virus
07-18-2013, 22:26
LNT on the AT is a joke
I totally agree. Every summer the AT gets trashed here in PA. By winter, all the trash has been picked up and the trail is beautiful again. I bet half the summer trash is left by locals who have no idea what LNT is and I bet the other half is left by section and thru hikers who supposedly live by LNT ethics.