View Full Version : SAR sues the people they rescued....
Mrs Baggins
07-01-2013, 06:36
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/06/30/california-responders-suing-teen-hikers-for-recovery-costs-medical-bills/?test=latestnews
Many of the comments after the article blame the SAR people, a "So what if you got hurt? You took the risk to rescue people." Then it seems to me that the people that have to BE rescued also "took the risk. You got lost, you got hurt, that's your fault and your problem." As for the comments that believe all SAR people are paid to take the risks...I have a good friend here in Maryland who is in SAR and she doesn't get paid a single dime. Nothing. The whole team is volunteers.
If a person travels in to the Wilderness and needs to be RESCUED they should have to pay for their own Rescue.
Nutbrown
07-01-2013, 07:27
Most SAR teams are volunteers. If you get injured in normal life, you pay. I don't see why you wouldn't have to pay for a rescue. A helicopter ride to the hospital costs minimum $2000. A complicated rescue in the wilderness shouldn't be free.
Rain Man
07-01-2013, 08:41
There's no good "simple-minded" answer to this question. If my house catches fire, should I have to pay the firemen? On the other hand, if I set my house on fire, should I get the service for free?
If the life guard grabs my child out of the surf, should I pay the lifeguard if he (or she) is injured in the process? What if I stop to help deliver a child born on the side of a road and injure myself?
Plainly, the only thing one-size-fits-all rule is that there is no one-size-fits-all rule.
Rain:sunMan
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There's no good "simple-minded" answer to this question. If my house catches fire, should I have to pay the firemen? On the other hand, if I set my house on fire, should I get the service for free?
If the life guard grabs my child out of the surf, should I pay the lifeguard if he (or she) is injured in the process? What if I stop to help deliver a child born on the side of a road and injure myself?
Plainly, the only thing one-size-fits-all rule is that there is no one-size-fits-all rule.
Rain:sunMan
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Would assumption of risk apply to a volunteer searcher getting injured?
fizz3499
07-01-2013, 08:58
I think it should depend on the situation. If the person needing rescue was clearly negligent, I think they should be held responsible. However things can go wrong no matter how careful you are, or what your skill level is. Any one could get bitten by a snake or have unexpected weather put them in danger and find themselves in need of rescue. I think in life very few things are black and white and more often then not there is not one right answer.
In a society that puts value in social safety nets such as government assistance why would tripping and falling on a trail be a billable item. Getting lost is just a byproduct of being poorly educated. Tripping is truly just an accident. I have a problem with charging someone for a helicopter ride after becoming injured or requiring rescue insurance unless the "State" is going to hold all responsible for their actions.
If folks who call for rescue were not properly prepaired and equipted to do what they were doing than they should be charged for rescue. With the use of cell phones today folks who are not prepaired find it easy to just call 911.
Nutbrown
07-01-2013, 09:53
But you pay for any medical service... Ambulance - $500. If you refuse transport, you can still expect a bill for the oxygen that you received.
Taxes pay for the firefighters and police.
To inject a little reality into the discussion...suing someone, even if you win, does not mean you will actually recover one single cent from the other party. The only ones who will make money this whole mess are the lawyers who are being paid to press the suits. Are a couple of teenaged meth heads going to come up with $160,000 for the state and $350,000 for the injured person? While spending the next three years in jail? Do you think the kids were covered by a liability policy so that an insurance company will cough up the money?
Throwing good money after bad.
If folks who call for rescue were not properly prepaired and equipted to do what they were doing than they should be charged for rescue. With the use of cell phones today folks who are not prepaired find it easy to just call 911.
Devils advocate response - Your walking 1 mile to a waterfall with a camera and a water bottle and slip and break a ankle. Should you be charged to a rescue?
If you are going to use the undeveloped out-doors than you should be prepaired. Everyone who does should learn some emergency first aid and how to use it. What is happening in the cell phone era is that folks call 911 when it's just a simple sprain or are just too tiard to continue on.
Devils advocate response - Your walking 1 mile to a waterfall with a camera and a water bottle and slip and break a ankle. Should you be charged to a rescue?
Yes, you are choosing to have a service (being rescued) performed for you.
Rain Man
07-01-2013, 10:40
To inject a little reality into the discussion... The only ones who will make money this whole mess are the lawyers who are being paid to press the suits.
Sorry, but you took reality out of the discussion. Lawyers often DO NOT "make money" when they represent the little guy, who has no money to pay them. What you repeated is an insurance industry campaign myth.
Rain:sunMan
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I still believe in a society where we look to take care of each other.
Will there be a situation where I'd agree that a bill be sent? Sure. But not a a general rule.
People make mistakes. We still reach out to them.
The person who is fat, rides a bike without a helmet, or practices unsafe sex is not denied public benefits (yet) because they made unwise choices.
Why should we be so quick to deny them to a person who needs help in the wilderness?
Our society's commitment to rescue the needy serves a greater purpose than just to the individual in need of help.
It is a statement of what we value as a community, and helps make us a community.
I don't think those values should always be for sale.
illabelle
07-01-2013, 12:55
I still believe in a society where we look to take care of each other.
Will there be a situation where I'd agree that a bill be sent? Sure. But not a a general rule.
People make mistakes. We still reach out to them.
The person who is fat, rides a bike without a helmet, or practices unsafe sex is not denied public benefits (yet) because they made unwise choices.
Why should we be so quick to deny them to a person who needs help in the wilderness?
Our society's commitment to rescue the needy serves a greater purpose than just to the individual in need of help.
It is a statement of what we value as a community, and helps make us a community.
I don't think those values should always be for sale.
very good response!
People make mistakes. We still reach out to them.
The person who is fat, rides a bike without a helmet, or practices unsafe sex is not denied public benefits (yet) because they made unwise choices. .
You bring up a lot of good points... but I think we have almost over done it in our society , there would be far less people on public benefits (welfare, section 8 housing, food stamps) if we made people more accountable for their actions. go down to a welfare office and see how many women that have 3 or 4 kids at 20-22, never had a job, have no interest in finding a job. watch this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpY_YG4kNhs ..... if I'm a meth head and go out in the woods and do something stupid, and break my legs I should be held accountable. I'm not saying we should leave them out there or anything lol, but if you don't hold people personally accountable for there actions, no one ever learns and the cycle just continues, which is where we heading in America today.
Sarcasm the elf
07-01-2013, 13:24
Sorry, but you took reality out of the discussion. Lawyers often DO NOT "make money" when they represent the little guy, who has no money to pay them. What you repeated is an insurance industry campaign myth.
Rain:sunMan
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Agreed, I would be willing to bet that this sort of thing is usually handled on behalf of the S&R team by an overworked, salaried Town or County attorney.
illabelle
07-01-2013, 13:44
You bring up a lot of good points... but I think we have almost over done it in our society , there would be far less people on public benefits (welfare, section 8 housing, food stamps) if we made people more accountable for their actions. go down to a welfare office and see how many women that have 3 or 4 kids at 20-22, never had a job, have no interest in finding a job. watch this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpY_YG4kNhs ..... if I'm a meth head and go out in the woods and do something stupid, and break my legs I should be held accountable. I'm not saying we should leave them out there or anything lol, but if you don't hold people personally accountable for there actions, no one ever learns and the cycle just continues, which is where we heading in America today.
Agreed. But let's start with the people in the video.
There will always be people who have accidents or make mistakes of judgment in the wilderness, but at least they're out there. I'm pretty sure that's a good thing. How many children represented by the families in the video ever set foot on a trail? How might their self-concept be transformed by some wilderness experience? Even a dayhike can open a person's eyes, expand their mind, and increase their sense of self-reliance.
Agreed. But let's start with the people in the video.
There will always be people who have accidents or make mistakes of judgment in the wilderness, but at least they're out there. I'm pretty sure that's a good thing. How many children represented by the families in the video ever set foot on a trail? How might their self-concept be transformed by some wilderness experience? Even a dayhike can open a person's eyes, expand their mind, and increase their sense of self-reliance.
I agree 100%,... I just think there is a difference between making a mistake and doing something reckless, like Meth. I love seeing people out on the trails, but I don't want to see someone that is reckless or puts others in danger.
....If you get injured in normal life, you pay. I don't see why you wouldn't have to pay for a rescue. A helicopter ride to the hospital costs minimum $2000. A complicated rescue in the wilderness shouldn't be free.
I was taken by helicopter to the nearest Trauma Ctr after being hit as a pedestrian by a motorist speeding in access of 75 Mph. I was never charged. I had a broken left ankle and received 28 stitches to my scalp as well as others deep bone bruises and asst. stitches elsewhere.This was 4 months before my AT thruhike.
There's no good "simple-minded" answer to this question. If my house catches fire, should I have to pay the firemen? On the other hand, if I set my house on fire, should I get the service for free?
If the life guard grabs my child out of the surf, should I pay the lifeguard if he (or she) is injured in the process? What if I stop to help deliver a child born on the side of a road and injure myself?
Plainly, the only thing one-size-fits-all rule is that there is no one-size-fits-all rule.
Rain:sunMan
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+2. Ditto
Sorry, but you took reality out of the discussion. Lawyers often DO NOT "make money" when they represent the little guy, who has no money to pay them. What you repeated is an insurance industry campaign myth.
Rain:sunMan
.
Lawyers and insurance companies are constantly playing this little game as if no one financially benefits yet I see you driving around in nice cars, dining in the nicest places, and have large swimming pools.:D Boo Hoo. It's so hard financially being a lawyer. By and large Personal Injury Lawyers wouldn't take on a case with no retainer unless there was a very good possibility of winning the case in short order(w/ the least work) or a large settlement was reasonably possible so they could receive their 1/3 + of the settllement.
HeartFire
07-01-2013, 17:09
Devils advocate response - Your walking 1 mile to a waterfall with a camera and a water bottle and slip and break a ankle. Should you be charged to a rescue?
I saw this exact thing once - but the lady was over 300 lb and wering flipflops on a very steep gravel trail. It took an awful lot of people to get her out.
But I don't have an answer to the original question -
In Colorado we can buy COSAR (http://www.colorado.gov/cs/Satellite/DOLA-Main/CBON/1251592090523) cards.
Devils advocate response - Your walking 1 mile to a waterfall with a camera and a water bottle and slip and break a ankle. Should you be charged to a rescue?
I saw this exact thing once - but the lady was over 300 lb and wering flipflops on a very steep gravel trail. It took an awful lot of people to get her out.
But I don't have an answer to the original question -
Flipflops are great until you walk up hill.
rocketsocks
07-01-2013, 18:15
In Colorado we can buy COSAR (http://www.colorado.gov/cs/Satellite/DOLA-Main/CBON/1251592090523) cards.A very small price to pay for piece of mind...and why not...it just makes good financial sense.
rocketsocks
07-01-2013, 18:16
Flipflops are great until you walk up hill.or step on a pop top...in days of old.
Biggie Master
07-01-2013, 18:21
Can't speak for anyone else, but if I'm out there and REALLY NEED emergency assistance, or even more if it's one of my loved ones, I will be more than happy to pay the bill for SAR. We should all be thankful that there are folks willing to risk their safety to help others who are in need.
SwissGuy
07-01-2013, 18:23
I worked SAR in western Washington. My view is that SAR is a public service akin to the police or fire department, and thus the service should be provided free of charge no matter the circumstances of the rescues. In the volunteer sar world the keyword is volunteer, you are there saying that you will provide the time and resources for a reduce voluntarily, and expecting reimbursement in any circumstance is at best immoral.
I think of the rescue of an experienced back county expert the same way I do for an idiot, there is no difference, they are a human being in need, and it is basic humanity to provide that help regardless of if they got themselves in trouble or it was beyond their control.
Just my 2¢
Water Rat
07-01-2013, 18:38
I look at SAR as a public service. I have many friends who have participated in SAR and they have all gone in knowing the potential risks. However, I also believe there should be some accountability on the part of the person rescued. Why should SAR have to sue to recover costs? Why aren't people happier to be rescued? Personally, if I ever found myself in the situation where SAR had to come save my butt, I would be seriously grateful (SAR would be getting a big check) they were there. I do take precautions to keep that from happening, but stuff happens.
I also think that those who end up needing to be rescued due to their own stupidity (drugs, alcohol, not being prepared for what they are doing; not general injury) should have to serve community service hours through their local SAR and see what actually goes into a rescue. They do need to understand sending SAR out is not a game - People do put themselves at risk to save others.
Agreed, I would be willing to bet that this sort of thing is usually handled on behalf of the S&R team by an overworked, salaried Town or County attorney.
I'm not suggesting this is being done by a lawyer working on a contingency basis who is hoping to make a percentage. But I still think there is zero possibility of recovering any money whatsoever from the teenagers. So if the SAR is using any resources at all to pursue this lawsuit, they will be exactly that amount poorer as a result.
psyculman
07-02-2013, 05:14
One aspect of the whole SAR "cost" that is not acknowledged is the economic contribution hikers make to both the local business and tax base. WE go there, buy stuff, stay in motels etc. thus contributing in a large way to the local economy.
Tuckahoe
07-02-2013, 07:26
One aspect of the whole SAR "cost" that is not acknowledged is the economic contribution hikers make to both the local business and tax base. WE go there, buy stuff, stay in motels etc. thus contributing in a large way to the local economy.
Yeah, and I would say that, that is not as much as you think. And will depend on what sort of outdoor or tourism activity we are talking about.
The AT may go right through Harpers Ferry, but I would bet you that there is little notice of hikers passing through. That town's bread and butter is heritage tourism. And on average that family being dragged around by dad checking out those historic sites tend to spend more money in the local economy than most any other tourist.
Think about all those other hiker towns, how much of an impact do hikers really have? Be honest. I would bet that cyclists using the Virginia Creeper Trail, and those families using the services supporting the Creeper bring in much more to the economy. And on a town like Damascus, or Washington or Grayson Counties, what sort of impact do you think that a couple $100,000+ SAR resucues would have on that local economy.
Ive been through Damascus a few times. First time through I spent nothing. Second and third time I bought a mess kit and a speeping bag on sale... $90 total. Fourth time gassed up. Fifth time lodging, food, and a t-shirt came to $70. That fifth trip, I spent more in Abingdon.
Nutbrown
07-02-2013, 07:52
I was taken by helicopter to the nearest Trauma Ctr after being hit as a pedestrian by a motorist speeding in access of 75 Mph. I was never charged. I had a broken left ankle and received 28 stitches to my scalp as well as others deep bone bruises and asst. stitches elsewhere.This was 4 months before my AT thruhike.
Three questions for you... What year was that, what country were you in, and did you have a Cadillac insurance policy?
I'm very happy for you that you did not incur more than the physical costs to your accident. Many people do not experience that. Glad the car didn't squish you ;)
Rain Man
07-02-2013, 08:39
Flipflops are great until you walk up hill.
Or downhill. Or wet. Or in bright sunshine all day.
BTW, one SAR situation I wouldn't mind charging for is folks who get a little tired and use a cell phone to call 911 for the concierge to arrange pick-up so they can get back in time for their favorite TV show. Or, drunks. I'd charge them for sure.
Rain:sunMan
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